All Comments (15)

Jesus essentially advocated on the cross that His killers and tormenters not be condemned to be separated from God. His advocacy was that they 'did not know what' they did. But ultimately He leaves the mystery of judgement, and to what extent each person's heartfelt intentions establish their relationship with God, to God and God's own time, mysterious, and nothing like ours. How do we go about wanting the good, the eternal good, for others, how to do this concretely in real action as well as in our hearts, this is the Christian quest. You can pore over the latest theological or anthropological or sociological reports, and you can look at various texts with a magnifying glass, you can harbor anger against this one or that one, against this group or that one, and pronounce yourself justified since it involves politics and ideology, but this essence rings out in something as simple and small and almost forgotten as looking at an icon.
At its worst, the Catholic church is an example of the sin we are all capable of committing. But at its absolute best, still encountered in abundance, it is encouragement to all that is good, beautiful and noble within our being.

AJ,

For your perusal (noted above but apparently you missed it):

Hmmm, unfortunately all this supposed chatter during the last days of Jesus is not historic since there were no credible witnesses to the events.

Professor Crossan (an On Faith panelist) who has exhaustively studied all the NT and related documents ( http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ ) notes the following:

From Crossan ( and Watts book), Who is Jesus.

“My best historical reconstruction would be something like this. Jesus was arrested during the Passover festival, most likely in response to his action in the Temple. Those who were closest to him ran away for their own safety. I do not presume that there were any high-level confrontations between Caiaphas and Pilate and Herod Antipas either about Jesus or with Jesus.

No doubt they would have agreed before the festival that fast action was to be taken against any disturbance and that a few examples by crucifixion might be especially useful at the outset. And I doubt very much if Jewish police or Roman soldiers needed to go too far up the chain of command in handling a Galilean peasant like Jesus.

It is hard for us to imagine the casual brutality with which Jesus was probably taken and executed. All those "last week" details in our gospels, as distinct from the brute facts just mentioned, are prophecy turned into history, rather than history remembered."

.
Monsignor,

Greetings.

I am a Catholic. I am not a theologian or anything close to that. So please bear with me on this.

So, on the cross, in excruciating pain, Jesus Christ prayed: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do"? (Apropos that: That's almost the opposite of what lawyers say: "Ignorance of the law excuses no one from compliance therewith." If one commits what the law calls a crime, that that one did not know of such a law does not absorve him.) And Jesus asked that his persecutors be forgiven because they know not what they do? They did not know what? That Jesus was the Son of God?

Perhaps. In fact, most probably. So much for what they did not know. What did they know? They were told by Pilate that he, Pilate, found nothing against Jesus that called for Jesus' condemnation. Still the mob demanded Jesus be crucified. When Pilate "washed his hands" of it all, they declared: "Let his blood be on our head and our children's." So, they knew they were going to crucify a man found innocent by the very authority they brought him to. Would God forgive them on that as well? I mean, Jesus--if Jesus meant hey did not know who he was, i.e., the Son of God--asked for their forgiveness of the sin of ignorance that led them to deicide (killing god), but what about the sin of murder for the killing of an innocent man?

This is what makes the question of "unconditional forgiveness" and of making the Cruxificion Event as modal to such, a muddling complex thing.

Ultimately, "unconditional forgiveness" spawns chaos not peace. If we have to have order, there must be some laws, some binding rules, some regulations covering the relationships of men. These must apply, for all, almost always (circumstances may--and this is a rule itself--exempt occasionally) if a modicum of stability in our lives, notably, as groups/nations/etc., is to be held.

I think that is why Jesus did not pray: "Father forgive them" and said no more. He strained while in horrendous pain, "for they know not what they do." Without that addendum, he would have been asking for chaos. That addendum (which is, come to think of it, not an addendum but one with the spirit of what was being prayed for) was a conditionality to our salvation: "I am the light," said he; "I am the way," "you are my flock, my sheeps-- I am your shepherd" I am sent by Our Father" "that you may know" and afterwards how can we ask for forgiveness unconditionally?

And if Jesus is "the light" and "the way," why are things being made mysterious, why are we being asked for what are described as "needing supernatural" this and that to do? THAT is the perplexing question. As in, "give unconditional forgiveness" when even Jesus did not.

Did Jesus?

Does the Roman Catholic Church? Or any Christian Church?

.

The monseigneur should be held accountable: he represents an organization that has openly condoned torture, death, coercion, and war.

May he rot in hell and inhale the stink of the Catholic Church.

Anyone who defends this church, like the other Ryan, should share in it's blame.

After all, aren't Catholics the ones that developed that ridiculous of ORIGINAL SIN? Well, take a look at yourselves.

Catholicism kills.

Someone said that to withhold forgiveness hurts only the one who withholds it. I agree. Someone else said that the best revenge is to forgive. I agree with that, too. Forgiveness is not, however a two edged sword. It hurts no one, I believe it certainly helps the forgiver and perhaps can help the one who is forgiven.
Forgive? YES! Forget! NEVER!!!

Someone said that to withhold forgiveness hurts only the one who withholds it. I agree. Someone else said that the best revenge is to forgive. I agree with that, too. Forgiveness is not, however a two edged sword. It hurts no one, I believe it certainly helps the forgiver and perhaps can help the one who is forgiven.

No, Jim, you're the hypocrite. You are holding Msgr. Bohlin accountable for the crimes of people over whom he had no control - do you hold yourself to such a high standard?

Coincidentally, you've proven his point for him in a way. You see, by writing and publishing (on the Internet counts) an accusation damaging to reputation of behavior criminal or embarrassing, direct or implied, you have slandered Msgr. Bohlin - a real person, not just a picture on a blog. You have admitted you've done as much. You picked on him, admittedly innocent to the best of your knowledge, merely to make a point (not even directly germaine to the topic). You've shown how you not only bear grudges against real wrongs, but allow them to poison your view and treatment of acknowledged innocence.

Meanwhile, Msgr. Bohlin has presumably forgiven you and gotten on with his life - which reveals the heart of the immense power of forgiveness: it frees the forgiver to return to a normal and happy life.

If something horrendous has happened to you personally, Jim, I hope you will find the healing you need. If you are grinding the axe of a loved one, I hope God gives you the grace to help them heal. If you are a former Catholic who is angry at your Church for some other reason, and is using this issue and this man as ways of venting your anger: shame on you.

Jim, did that really happen?

Joey: "Jim, did that really happen?"

No. I was just making a point about hypocrisy.

Jim, did that really happen?

I forgive you, Thomas G. Bohlin, for molesting me when I was twelve years old.

" The Word of the LORD speaks for itself,", and when the Lord Himself became one of us, a human being, Jesus of Nazareth, and He was hanging on the cross He said, "Father forgive them."

Hmmm, unfortunately all this supposed chatter during the last days of Jesus is not historic since there were no credible witnesses to the events.

Professor Crossan (an On Faith panelist) who has exhaustively studied all the NT and related documents ( http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ ) notes the following:

From Crossan ( and Watts book), Who is Jesus.

“My best historical reconstruction would be something like this. Jesus was arrested during the Passover festival, most likely in response to his action in the Temple. Those who were closest to him ran away for their own safety. I do not presume that there were any high-level confrontations between Caiaphas and Pilate and Herod Antipas either about Jesus or with Jesus.

No doubt they would have agreed before the festival that fast action was to be taken against any disturbance and that a few examples by crucifixion might be especially useful at the outset. And I doubt very much if Jewish police or Roman soldiers needed to go too far up the chain of command in handling a Galilean peasant like Jesus.

It is hard for us to imagine the casual brutality with which Jesus was probably taken and executed. All those "last week" details in our gospels, as distinct from the brute facts just mentioned, are prophecy turned into history, rather than history remembered."

As Mad Love noted on another thread, the effective Warrior is the one who is not distracted by hatred. I can catch OBL much faster without hatred than with, and will have no trouble with his penalty. has nothing to do with leaving judgment and hatred out of my personal thinking, which is all forgiveness is.

All that is true: Forgiveness is good for soul and psyche. But there is an unmentioned, unanalyzed downside.

Some fraction of any effective social response to asocial or immoral behavior is motivated by the very-human, hate-driven wish for revenge. Let us not become too comfortably forgiving lest the psychopaths and sociopaths lose their fear of decent people. Let us continue to hate OBL and his ilk.

TH

I will never forgive the Catholic Church. They have betrayed the trust of the people they are supposed to serve. They misrepresent the true nature of God by that betrayal of trust.

The nature of God is not in question, that of the Church and it's leaders is.