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I appreciate it, Arminius: we're well aware that some of you guys play better with others than we may often see, particularly on the Net and in the media. :)

"Pope Benedict has re-stated what the Church has always taught: Jesus founded the Catholic Church, which has faithfully passed on Christ's message. So what else is new?"
-----------------------------
What's new is the re-emergence of official Vatican support of the view that Catholicism is a more "true" and authentic version of Christianity than the other denominations. This is plain old bigotry with no basis in logic or the necessities of authentic faith. I'm not a believer, but even I can see the bigotry in the Pope's declaration that about the primacy of Catholocism.

"Racism against Arabs in Israel is rising, according to at least one recent poll. In a survey for the Centre Against Racism, a poll of Jewish Israelis found that more than half believed it was treason for a Jewish woman to marry an Arab man; 40% said Arabs should no longer have the right to vote in parliamentary elections; and 75% opposed apartment blocks being shared by Jews and Arabs."
----------------------------------
It is hypocrisy to condemn bigotry by Israeli Jews and not to criticize the same fault in Arabs/Persians. Your own bigotry is apparent in your selective outrage.

what a joy it is to watch the faithful try to play nicely together. but be careful; it's always fun until someone falls and puts an eye out.

i, too, welcome the return of our good friend, Canyon Shearer. go get 'em, dude.

That is just it, nothing new for The Generation that says that,they have to realize How long ago that nothing new was said. Your generation and before did not ask questions of authority examples McCarthy, I forgot his name but the real moron who was behind the war on drugs oh yeah Aslinger,Most of the presidents from the late 19th and 20th century, except FDR and Teddy they were good choices. Also for religion you did the same thing and I am sorry but for a believer in Christ I have to ask myself that over the last controversy that happen to the ones that say they hold the keys and yes it is not just in the churches but for how long has it been, and hidden. That only makes a lie worse. And I am sorry If I was christ and I needed representation the catholic church is fired just like there counterparts before them. Because It doesn't matter If one or a Hundred men did it, it is a black eye for God not man. Also once again maybe if the pope did not believe he is free from error and then to change his rules within a couple months on different issues proves otherwise. Maybe let see if, he repented and admitted he was not infaliable, for starters. And if he is in charge then just like when a president messes up he should step down yes he takes the blow for the whole catholic church but when you think about it, is not that what Jesus did for our salvation except Jesus was free from sin, remember practise what you preach or go back and teach.

Since the pope gets his license to steal from the Bible and the "faith families" he seeks to unite get their license to "go into business for themselves" [stealing] does the Bible being a proved hoax mean anything? Does anyone care?

The most compelling question of all time will soon be answered: What's a mother to do? That would be the mother of God that is not herself God, the strangest bit of biological science equaled only by "let there be light" [at the end of the tunnel, an oncoming train no doubt].

Does http://www.hoax-buster.org make your head hurt?

Paganplace,

You said:
"It's funny how often Pagans are accused of being 'deceived by devils,' ...Into what, kindness, goodwill, and studied awareness of the effects of our actions?"

Some of us non-Pagans do not accuse you of that. I respect your views, even if I do not always agree, because you state them with dignity and reason.

I will admit to sympathy to Pagan beliefs - as you said, the kindness, goodwill, and responsibility for our actions. Not to mention your reverence for the Earth. Our differences lie mostly in that I believe in only one God, the Creator. And I have absolutely no problem with your beliefs.

Keep up the good posts.

"Pope Benedict has re-stated what the Church has always taught: Jesus founded the Catholic Church, which has faithfully passed on Christ's message."

This statement is historically inaccurate. Jesus Christ never founded the Catholic church or Christianity. If you have ever read a Bible or any other historical documents from that time period, it is pretty clear that Jesus, a Jew, was trying to reform Judaism and encourage Jews to practice their faith in, what he saw was, a more pure way.

After his death his disciples basically began traveling around teaching what they believed Jesus had wanted them to teach to various communities in the Middle East and modern day Europe. Each disciple had their own differing version of Jesus’ teachings and began gathering different groups of followers. There was no consensus or stated Catholic Church.

The church may have been founded upon Jesus’ teachings, but it is completely inaccurate to assert that Jesus founded the Catholic church.

If Monsignor, U.S. vicar of Opus Dei really wants to have an “understanding of the truth about God” then he should pick up a history book and get his facts correct, because perpetuating false truths does not lead to understanding.

*peace sign.* :) You, too, Tim. :)

Peace Peganplace.

On the word 'goy,' or 'goyim,' it's not always meant in the manner of a slur, though, I suppose that's a matter of tone and usage. Most minority groups have one or more words for people not in said group which can take on similar tones.

My understanding is that 'goy' can be *defined* as offensive, but isn't always meant as such when said.

(And, yes, Pagans have a few slang terms for non-Pagans, (or those who don't have similar wirldviews) ...most of them not particularly to be taken uncharitably unless clearly meant that way.)

BGONE,

With your poorly researched statements, you continue to "whistle in the wind".

I mean, I know the rhetoric, Tim, but what you're talking about is *still* just a way of sticking scarlet letters on people who don't obey your authorities, whether they've hurt anyone or not.

" Tim:

"Peganplace, race was meant to refer to all mankind, not any particular race - but you probably already know that."

I also know that in this scheme, certain religions and denominations can be considered 'saved' from being fallen, thus leaving the rest of us, where.

Under that condemnation of yours, all implications of 'inferior races' aside, as if we were 'rebelling' against anything that had authority or reality for us in the first place.

"We are all in the same boat. Peganplace, would you be so kind as to tell me what is your position; are we fallen, sinful, and rebelious?"

No, of course we're not.

We're people.

'Fallen' isn't in my world, 'sinful' is a foreign concept apparently disconnected from the actual effects of people's actions, and, 'rebellious' implies someone that to us doesn't exist as such is supposed to have sovereignty over us, because someone else told us they did.

These things are only in your book.

The rebellion isn't against your God, ...it's against your worldview, maybe.

We can do better. At least let us go in peace.

This is supposed to be America.

Daniel, I had to look up the word goy also. Wikipedia says: it is a synonym for gentile or non-Jew and its use can be controversial. Is it then some kind of "n" word for gentiles?

I do think, Bgone, that there's a certain point amid what you say: namely, if you base faith on allegiance and 'revelation,' ....especially if that religion is based on ideas of ultimate, deceptive evil, ...it's a bit arrogant to presume that one is undeceived and must therefore be obeyed.

One would think that in such a universe, one would be all the more wary of authoritarian revelations and what descend from them, not the more insistent upon them.

My own religion, of course, finds both these assertions of 'ultimate authority' and 'ultimate deception' self-referential and, really, non-functional.

Frankly, if people were capable of being deceived by false authority in the way we're usually accused of being deceived, ...it frankly doesn't make much sense to presume that Christian authority was never deceived, ...on its own terms.

Of course, in our world, we make no such claims to hold such universal power and authority, so that form of the resulting chaos, competition, and so-ready hatred isn't our problem.

But if *I* believed in a deceiving Devil like that, I'd think the last thing I'd want would be to consolidate power under authorities to be believed and obeyed without questioning the premises.

It does have a way of directing people's fears outward.

Personally, if I lived in that world, I'd wanna be damn sure everything I followed made sense in multiple and verifiable points of view, cause, deceive one authority on any one thing, and you might never see the end of it, right?

It's funny how often Pagans are accused of being 'deceived by devils,' ...Into what, kindness, goodwill, and studied awareness of the effects of our actions?

Seems like that's a system that's a damn sight less deceivable, than one which says burn heretics, vote Republican, and oppress those who have sex without permission. :)

After reading this thread, I asked my friend, so, just what is a goy? and he said a goy is a girl shickza, and I said, oh, ok, I guess. (whatever).

Peganplace, race was meant to refer to all mankind, not any particular race - but you probably already know that. We are all in the same boat. Peganplace, would you be so kind as to tell me what is your position; are we fallen, sinful, and rebelious?

See what I mean about where this goes?

Paganplace:

So, I see we're back to labeling folks as 'fallen and rebellious races.'

We know where *that* goes

--------------------------------------

Devil may care. Religion, all religion is chaos. That's where IT *that* always goes, straight to hell and pure chaos, well as chaotic as it can get.

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul may be wrong. There most likely was a supernatural being, Devil in that ball of fire. Seem to be a lot of deals being made with Devil here lately and they're all deemed moral by the government.

Correct Paganplace, "We know where *that* goes" straight to hell.

Anonymous:

http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/

Get serious ANON, Orthodox Jewry began in the 19th century? Germany? What were they before that, UN-orthodox? That's what the ones, more than a few are right now.

Ha -- the Bible in 29 words, thanks to Prof. Myers

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/07/the_whole_book_summarized_in_2.php

Sunday, July 22, 2007
Open Letter to the "Levelheaded Rabbi"

"... if we are going to sit down with the Vatican to negotiate liturgy, should we, l’havdil, offer to take out the second paragraph of Aleinu, in which we pray for the day when gentiles will stop worshipping idols? How about “sheheim mishtachavim” – the line that Christian censors removed from Aleinu, claiming it insulted Christians? Many of us have put it back. Should we allow the Vatican to dictate what we say in our prayers? Or should we, perhaps, do a line-by-line analysis of the Talmud to make sure there is nothing there that people may find offensive?" (Rabbi Yerachmiel Seplowitz, "The Pope's Got A Point," The Jewish Press, Wednesday, July 18, 2007)

http://www.jewishpress.com/page.do/22275/The_Pope's_Got_A_Point.html

I'm afraid that can of worms has already been opened, dear Rabbi Seplowitz. Not that you have anything to fear from your guys in the Vatican, but there are many commoners--am haaretz--who are picking up the slack for the Vatican and doing long overdue line-by-line analysis of not only the Talmud, but the entire corpus of Judaic texts, and uncovering the very things which you quite apparently fear could be exposed.

But don't worry. We wouldn't think of attempting to censor your offensive texts, much less confiscating and burning them, even if we had the means. History has proven such heavy-handed methods to be ineffective. Vatican censorship failed (and Judaic imprisonment of "holocaust deniers" and confiscation of their books will also fail, by the way). Indeed, you can thank the Vatican censors for buying you and your fellow rabbis a few extra centuries of cover for your thoroughly offensive texts precisely by censoring them. It was such a great idea that the rabbis continued to do it themselves, even after the demise of the Catholic states, producing sanitized "Talmuds" for goy consumption, such as the Rodkinson "Talmud"--a favorite among Talmud apologists who disingenuously use it to "prove" that those troublesome Talmud quotes about child rape, lying, cheating, killing, etc., are "antisemitic fabrications."

No, we don't intend to hide what we're learning from the public. What we have planned is full disclosure, as it should be. There will be transparency in Judaism as there is in other religions; no more secret society stuff.

You can thank your fellow rabbis and their ever-so-characteristic insane overreaching for sparking our newfound interest. Were it not for their cosmic-proportioned chutzpah most of us would likely be going about our am haaretz lives not even concerned about what the Talmud contains, probably not even knowing what the Talmud is.

Behind your pose as the "levelheaded rabbi" there are, of course, selfish motives, likely based in fear. But if my intuition is correct, you have nothing to fear in the way of pogroms or book burnings. What you have to fear is the worst possible thing of all that could happen to a rabbi: the truth about the rabbinic tradition being widely exposed. God willing, the fact that your "holy" texts sanction child rape and the fact that you, Rabbi Seplowitz, as a mohel, get paid to put your mouth on the bleeding, circumcised penises of baby boys will be as commonly known as the Christian belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ.

Shalom aleichem, "elder brother" Rabbi Seplowitz.

Posted by Maurice Pinay at 11:31 PM 0 comments

So, I see we're back to labeling folks as 'fallen and rebellious races.'

We know where *that* goes.

http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/

Keep believing that TIM. Of course God sacrificed His only begotten son to save you. That means you have the blood of Jesus on your hands, beneficiary of the crucifixion of God's son, at least in your mind. Remember, thoughts are sinful too. Maybe you should forget that, deny being in on the crucifixion of God's only son.

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul is not so. There really was a supernatural being in that ball of fire and Moses really did make a deal with it. Such a deal too. Moses got to be the biggest shot that ever lived and you get to admit crucifying the son of God, kinda like that rabbit and horse stew, 50-50, one horse and one rabbit. You'll get your reward in heaven, you know, the place run by the supernatural being that's on fire.

Devil certainly forgives sins so you can faith that your sins are forgiven. And Devil just loves the idea of crucifying the son of God, God too if He can. Now that's the plan, crucify God, the deal Moses made. Moses lead the Israelites to hell but they're not making it. Not enough of them but when enough people are in hell then Lucifer can re-attack heaven. Keep the faith. This time Lucifer will win. You do want to be in on it? You are in favor of crucifying the son of God so you can be saved? You'll need to crucify God to get that fire put out.

Not to worry, there's a fire extinguisher in heaven so fight hard else you're going to continue to burn along with that being in the ball of fire for all eternity. Lucifer has faith in you that you can defeat the forces of the God now holding heaven. Can you? You'll need to do that so Lucifer can declare Himself to be God, kinda like Martin Luther declaring himself to be pope.

Only Devil wants God's only son killed, crucified being a perk. That's how it works in kingdoms, first son inherits the throne. What's the death of the firstborn son story and Moses, Passover all about anyhow? Any idea?

Dear food eater: the bridge between man and the creator almighty god is wide open around the clock till the last day and it is Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Dear food eater: you are a member of a fallen and rebellious race standing under God's wrath. Reconciliation of the alienated parties is needed, but can only trough God's initiative. All glory belongs to God the Father. God has in His mercy provided a path and now it is up to you to see that you are a sinner and not an equal with God and you need the mediation that God himself has provided.

Colossians 1:19-21 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.

Praise God almighty for His Son Jesus Christ!

BTW, you still have not answered one of my questions. I wonder why I am not surprised.

"We will establish ourselves in Palestine whether you like it or not...You can hasten our arrival or you can equally retard it. It is however better for you to help us so as to avoid our constructive powers being turned into a destructive power which will overthrow the world."
Chaim Weizmann
"Judische Rundschau" No. 4, 1920

“… we Jews, the destroyers, will remain the destroyer forever … nothing that the Gentiles will do will meet our needs and demands.” Mr. Maurice Samuel, Jewish writer.

Think stupid goy,..think!

The Rothschild family is definitely Jewish,
and madame Rothschild herself once said,...

"if my sons didn’t want wars, there would be no wars,"

You are all too stupid to see, I just know it.

"We shall drive the Christians into war by exploiting
their national vanity and stupidity. They will then massacre
each other, thus giving room for our own people."
(Rabbi Reichorn, July 1, 1880)

"By using the new atheist exile politics they [the Zionists] provoked and increased anti-Semitism in Europe which led to the Second world War. . . The worldwide boycott against Germany in 1933 and the later all-out declaration of war against Germany, initiated by the Zionist leaders and the World Jewish Congress. . . " -- Rabbi Schwartz, New York Times, Sept. 30, 1997

I'm sure the stupid goy among you will mark it all off as merely "anti-semitic", but of course the stupid always stereo type, refusing truth and blind to the facts.

Stupid goy.

"The Talmud is, then, the written form of that which in the time of Jesus, was called the Traditions of the Elders." — Rabbi Michael L. Rodkinson

"The Jewish religion as it is today traces its descent, without a break, through all the centuries, from the Pharisees." — Universal Jewish Encyclopedia

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, high-minded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 2Timonthy 3:1-5

Pope Benedict places his Roman Catholic Church at the head of the class.

I wish I could have graded my own work when I was in school.

Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." John 14:1-4

For I know the plans that I have for you,' declares the LORD, 'plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. Jeremiah 29:11-13

Racism against Arabs in Israel is rising, according to at least one recent poll. In a survey for the Centre Against Racism, a poll of Jewish Israelis found that more than half believed it was treason for a Jewish woman to marry an Arab man; 40% said Arabs should no longer have the right to vote in parliamentary elections; and 75% opposed apartment blocks being shared by Jews and Arabs.

Canyon:

What's up dude! Where ya been? Haven't seen you in awhile. We have finally agreed on something. The Catholic Church is full of crap. But unfortunately, that is the extent to where we agree, because I think they are full of crap for different reasons, than just ursurping God's power. And Jesus' for that matter. But oh well, I guess the Pope will never learn. He may be smart, but he isn't wise. I once read a statement by a man that said "there is a difference between knowledge and wisdom." Works for me. I meet alot of dumb smart people.

Anyways, keep on truckin Canyon my man!

"The Hebrew form of the name Jesus--Yeshu--was interpreted as an acronym for the curse 'may his name and memory be wiped out,' which is used as an extreme form of abuse. In fact, anti-zionist Orthodox Jews (such as Neturei Karta) sometimes refer to Herzel as "Herzl Jesus' and I have found in religious zionist writings expressions such as 'Nasser Jesus' and more recently 'Arafat Jesus.'" (Israel Shahak, Jewish History Jewish Religion)

the ecumenical bridge.
the bridge between man and the creator almighty god is wide open around the clock till the last day,no mediators ,no brookers ,no second hand,no hierarchy,no favorism,no holy familyism,no son,no daughter,no grand ma,no aunty,no human being,no angel kind,no jin kind ,no stones ,no rocks,no mental delusion,no infalliblism,no sacrificingism.
the ideology of the so called son of god is no more no less than the ideology of the infallible pope of god,both are food eater, off springs of adam and eve.
the creator almighty god is easy reachable.where ever you are where ever you do ,sing the song of the songs,all praise goes to the creator lord.
no sweat.

The really big divide in Christianity is between those who take the faith seriously and those who don't. Many so-called Christians, whether Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant, or whatever, are more members of a social club than holders of a faith. Those of us in the Protestant denominations agree that Jesus founded one catholic (small c) church, but that much of Roman Catholic practice and teaching has strayed so far from that church that it is still in need of serious reform. Catholics think we have departed from true Apostolic succession. Non-denominational churches try to ignore all man-made divisions. Etc., blah blah, yada yada. Little human voices quibbling. I say all those who truly strive to be in Christ link arms across these thorny thickets that we have allowed to grow up between us.

Ignore the unliberated concerned christianist posting above; I have it on good authority that he doesn't exist.

Monsignor,

It is good to see someone representing the RCC hierarchy finally making commentary about RCC issues.

After much reading, it appears there are larger issues than Latin Masses and the ecumenical spirit facing the RCC. And what are those issues? The historic foundations!!!

Please comment on the following synopsis:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth. Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists)via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian sects.

3. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

I am sure you disagree with this list of myths but said myths are also being characterized that way in many Catholic university theology classes (i.e. Catholic U and Notre Dame).

Comments would be appreciated.

I don't even know where to begin...the Catholic Church makes my blood boil. I don't hate its members, but I do hate its founder...which the Catholic's would address as Christ, but I am certain, without any doubt, that the founder and governor of the Catholic Church is satan himself.

That Opus-Dei has to look towards the Pope for Sainthood is one primal reason this Church is lost and in the dark.

To read the Bible and think that the Pope has ANY authority to saint (from the Greek, hagiazo, meaning sanctified, made holy) is ridiculous, because Christ has the only authority in calling saints.

Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints. - 1 Cor 1:2

If you are counting on a man to sanctify you, then you are doomed.

It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. Put not your trust in princes, nor in the sons of men, in whom there is no help. - Psalm 118:8 and 146:3

Next is this business of vicar, from which we get the word vicariously. To think that any man can act in place of God is blasphemy. The Holy Spririt is the agent of God in the end times, not some self-appointed antichristian minister.

But that the Pope thinks there are any elements of truth and salvation INSIDE the Catholic Church is where I get upset the most.

Christ said, I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by Me. He didn't say, "comes to the Father but by Me or the contradictory apostate teachings of the Catholic Church."

For by grace are ye saved through faith; not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. - Eph 2:8-9

Ecumenism should be promoted as much as possible, with the goal of bringing the Catholic Church back to Christ; perhaps a better action for this would be Evangelism.

See:
wayofthemasterradio.com/podcast/2006/11/09/november-09-2006-hour-1/
wayofthemasterradio.com/podcast/2006/11/09/november-09-2006-hour-2/

The pope's statement sounds political in nature, in that it's calculated to build solidarity within the church despite potential offense to outsiders. But does any thoughtful catholic seriously believe that anymore? Salvation through christ seems to be a pretty open invitation.