He also earned a doctorate in moral theology at the Pontifical University of the Holy Cross in Rome. Monsignor Bohlin was ordained a priest for the Prelature of Opus Dei in 1997. Prior to coming to New York as the head of Opus Dei in the United States, he worked for the five years with Opus Dei’s Prelate, Bishop Javier Echevarría, at Opus Dei's international headquarters in Rome as chancellor for Opus Dei. Monsignor Bohlin has spoken about faith issues on such news programs as “Hardball with Chris Matthews” and “Meet the Press.” Opus Dei has 87,000 members worldwide and 3,000 in the United States. Pope John Paul II canonized Opus Dei’s founder, Saint Josemaría Escrivá, in 2002, calling him “the saint of ordinary life."
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Thomas G. Bohlin
Monsignor, U.S. vicar of Opus Dei.
Monsignor Thomas G. Bohlin is the U.S. vicar of the Prelature of Opus Dei, an international institution of the Catholic Church that helps people come closer to God in their work and daily activities. A native of northern New Jersey, Monsignor Bohlin received his bachelor’s degree from Northwestern University and a doctorate in history from the University of Notre Dame.
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It's a great achievement for Islamic leaders and scholars as well as Newsweek and the Washington post to present this imperative opportunity for inter cultural and global philosophical dialogue. What's important is that by exchanging our ideas and comments regarding inter religious relations and world events that affect our views of each other as fellow human beings. Since the advent of humanity, We strove to make sense of the world we live in and the lives we've experienced. Worldwide curiosities to learn the true nature of life and our universe is an exceptionally rare virtue upon life on Earth. In other words, we're the only known species on the planet who've pursued to unravel these great mysteries and developed written philosophies based upon our understanding of the world around us.
One such philosophy that lasted throughout the ages of humanity is commonly known as religion and spirituality. Ever since our early belief in the Sky God and the God Mother from ancient Pagan times, we vigorously pursued to unravel the truth about our most profound questions. As any educated person would know that religion and their core beliefs or faith have evolved over time. Paganism, Monotheism and Polytheism have been influenced by humanity as these great philosophies have influenced our perceptions and decisions in life over the ages. Over time humanity has embraced diverse religious faiths and spiritual convictions that continue to influence our behavior in our times and most likely beyond.
What's vital for humanity's progress and even survival is to know the true nature of faith itself. To understand the true origins of faith. But most of all, is to accept the truth for whatever it may be. Each one of us will learn the absolute truth once we die. But until that time comes for anyone of us to depart this world, we really don't know the answer to God's existence nor do we have the absolute truth in regards to the true nature of God. Besides if we did possess the truth, there would've been only one religion on Earth with no diversification of any way, shape of form. There would only be one holy scripture written throughout human history.
Considering one's religious faith to be absolute, while considering others to be false would be ethnocentric at best. While collectively searching to unravel the mysteries on nature, life and the universe through sincere reasoning and serious research would be enlightening at its worst. Most importantly, we must accept the fact is that none of us have conclusive evidence to confirm our core beliefs and there's always an immanent change that our most cherished beliefs could be wrong. Our greatest challenge would be to tolerate the truth no matter what it may ultimately be. With such an open mind, we would be able to overcome any future discovery that would contradict our faith regarding the true nature of life, spirituality and divinity.
Humanity does have the ability to achieve such a social achievement. However, it's solely up to humanity and not any other entity or groups of entities to decide our destinies. Each one of us has a choice to make; either hopelessly engaging into meaningless inter cultural conflicts or combine our scientific and cultural gifts to thrive into an enlightened global civilization that could ultimately expand beyond our solar system. The choice is yours, and the time to make it is now!
I will pray for you, Virginia. And you can pray for yourself -- Jesus Himself taught us the Lord's Prayer. Please find a clergyman to talk to. You sound so discouraged you need some help. God bless you!
I would have answered before but I jus saw the thread.
I'm praying for you, Virginia. I would have started before, but I just looked at this thread.
Sure, you can pray for yourself! Jesus did, and when He was asked how we should prayer, He made up the Our Father prayer! So do pray the Our Father.
You sound so discouraged, it might be good if you talked to a clergyperson. Look in the Yellow Pages under churches, and find a denomination you like. Call until you find someone who will talk to you. Or find a therapist who understands your problems. I'll pray you find somebody.
God bless you. You are not a bad person. If you were you wouldn't be concerned about doing the right thing. There is no such thing as a path of no return.
I have found that God is the light of the day that wakes me up everyday. He saved me from the burning pits of Hell but, latly I have been living in sin and I am not proud of it at all. I just need someone here to pray for me because it is a sin to pray for yourself. I have sinned enough without adding to it I have done so much wrong i don't know how I deserve such a wonderful thing like God but, I know he still loves me no matter what I do good or bad but, I need him to led me in the right direction and down the right path because i and on the path to no return an I just need a few prayers so can someone please help me. If You Will Please Just Contact Me and Tell Me Your Praying For Me Here Is My E-mail Address green_eyed_chick_05@yahoo.com
I have found that God is the light of the day that wakes me up everyday. He saved me from the burning pits of Hell but, latly I have been living in sin and I am not proud of it at all. I just need someone here to pray for me because it is a sin to pray for yourself. I have sinned enough without adding to it I have done so much wrong i don't know how I deserve such a wonderful thing like God but, I know he still loves me no matter what I do good or bad but, I need him to led me in the right direction and down the right path because i and on the path to no return an I just need a few prayers so can someone please help me. If You Will Please Just Contact Me and Tell Me Your Praying For Me Here Is My E-mail Address green_eyed_chick_05@yahoo.com
What is it that the leaders of the Catholic church have, is chutzpa, the religious kind? I am a born catholic, taught in church schools all the way through Notre Dame. (that's 16 years of religious education) And it is true we were taught that the ROMAN CATHOLIC church had charge of the ONE TRUE RELIGION. So perhaps its not chutzpa, perhaps it is what the church teaches its members to believe is truth.
Thus when a leader of the church says we all must be saved translated from the Latin that means if you are not a member of the Holy Roman Catholic Church and do not believe in its primacy here on earth and later in whatever, you are out of luck and its hellfire and damnation for you.
There is only one way to be saved. It isn't via some sort of good feeling born again inspiration, the HRCC translates "Saved' to mean a member of the Catholic church in good standing.
The church has not given up its claim to be the successor to Peter nor does it include those who call themselves, Evangelicals, who are members of other versions of "Christianity", just those who a Catholics.
Remember the inquisition? Protestant evangelicals who think the HRCC is on your side and speaks your language should remember it. If, working together you succeed in "reclaiming this country for Christ", you will very quickly find out who the group is that is in charge of the "Christian Country" and it won't be you all.
We don't want to be saved, we don't want to be Catholic, and you have no business thinking you have any business interfering in our lives. Thanks but no thanks.
" think sometimes there is misunderstanding of what a Christian says is her "fallen" nature. It simply means we are part of the material universe-- clever animals actually that's all we are-- and ,as such, subject to the laws of all living creatures. The world is a beautiful place, but it is also full of risk and subject to terrible events over which humankind has almost no control."
Fair enough. Of course, in practice, this 'fallen nature' idea comes with ideas that people
(particularly nonbelievers) are essentially evil and must be controlled by religion, that the world's too base and shameful to be involved with, and that science is a rival religion of some kind.
Not to mention a lot of people seeming to be *living down to this idea* in order, I think, subconsciously, to 'prove' that they *need* to be saved. It's a dynamic I've certainly seen in abusive clergy: professionally trying to tell people they're awful and need saving, and, I think, trying to sell the idea that ''sin' must be so fun and tempting in order to be such an insidious threat,' that they stop seeing the victims *as* people, with a goodness they may be acting to crush, cause they stop seeing people, and only see 'sin,' and their drama becomes all about themselves being 'saved' from this 'sin'
...and perhaps they identify with some abusive images of a deity that becomes *more important than and outside* the actions themselves.
Certainly, the idea 'man is fallen, particularly without our religion' is used to denigrate and defame others, divorcing people's perception of others from the realities of what each do, and turning it to 'who's identified with the right authority.'
"Whilst some will rage against it and the Creator for having placed us in such a world, the fact remains it is all that is on offer."
"Christians believe Christ offers an alternative both to the material world and to our animal nature but that is another story & against my intention not to evangelize.""
I think if you start from the presumption that a particular Creator *placed* us in a world that just doesn't fit with the depiction of that Creator's will and nature, then perhaps it's natural that people who are taught it's psychologically-unacceptable not to accept the religion anyway, ( lest some terror of death and/or punishment take over,) well, then, it's natural for those people to look for someone to *blame* for this state of affairs.
Christians might well blame God or 'sinners' or 'fallen nature,' but, well, Pagans find it much more natural to start with the world and find the Gods there.
Certainly, Wicca has its basis in a pretty darn heterosexual model of the Gods, but there's very little homophobia in the community, I think because we don't start with the theological *presumption* 'people being gay means 'something's wrong with the world,' rather, "Obviously, the Lord and Lady have gay kids, too."
:)
I certainly don't hate the Gods for my pain in this life, ...and I certainly don't hate *yours* for things I don't believe he really did. :)
However, I do think this idea of 'fallen nature' leads to much abuse and stress and blindness, even as there may be more mature ways to cope with the idea.
There's still the teaching that 'People who don't follow this religion do so because without it, people are essentially bad and fallen, ...they're selfish, lazy, hedonistic, cruel, irresponsible, 'God-hating,' evil, and all that stuff. '
Personally, I think if you tell people that about themselves, on some level, they believe it.
And often live down to it so they can keep being 'saved.'
Then accuse others of being bad things cause they don't play that game, even if you may find that outside it, there's really *less* appeal to selfishness and hurting others, cause that's just not the central drama.
Not to sound naive, but that's really not our nature. We can be better. And often are.
"I sympathize with the pagan outlook having felt the pull of it myself as a child."
Mary C.,
I can speak only for myself, but your presence or absence at any given time on the forum has/had absolutely no bearing on what I post(ed). I reply to what I read when I read it - I'm on only periodically myself.
Further, I'm not afraid of you, so why should I want only to speak in your absence?
As to your list of sausage (unclean!) "miracles", only the first would qualify in any way to me, and there is no independently verifiable case of any such thing ever happening. Including (perhaps especially) at Fatima. People can easily be deluded - even en masse if their heads are in the right (or wrong) place - and these people, by definition, had their heads in such a place.
There are natural astrophysical laws, and had the Sun actually done any such thing as was reported by the "true believers", there would have been enormous consequences that no one could have failed to notice.
To Luke: Actually reading your post of 6-13-2007-8:07 AM it sounds like you actually became a christian in your heart after you stopped believing in your head. All of this hatred being spewed out in God's name is pitiful considering that God is Pure Love. To everyone: I have met God, the Trinity, I did not see Him, by the way God is not a male or female but I have to use some kind of pronoun, but God the Father came into my heart, the Holy Spirit came into my body and He revealed to me that Jesus is present in the Eucharist. God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof. Those people hiding behind their religion, whatever it is, especially if they call themselves christians and spewing out hatred of their fellow man, male and female, are going to be rather unpleasantly surprised, that is not even close to being what Jesus taught and they don't seem to have a clue to what being a christian is. I have also met satan and he is not nice, he is not a male either but an angel very unnice and I might add very upset, well that is his problem not mine. The bible happens to be true even though so many people twist it with their own prejudices into making God a real piece of garbage but God is Pure Love and His Plan is for all of His children whether people like it or not. I am the New Testament Moses and it came as quite a shock to me when I found out. To those who talk about religious indoctrination well God in His wisdom had me walk away from church for about 30 years and one of the reasons was that it was becoming a religion rather than faith and if I didn't know some things, well I tell you some "good catholics and good christians of other persuations" would have made me leave again but I have a job to do now and God is going to see me through. It doesn't matter if anyone believes a word that I say about what has happened to me, I am only a messenger anyway, but it is that time and I repeat God is a searcher of hearts and minds, it does matter what you do and why you do it, we have free will and we will all be judged which is only fair but guess what God's Mercy is even better than a lot of people seem to want at least for the other person. God asked us to forgive everyone, judge no one, condemn no one, kind of simple isn't it, but somewhat hard or virtually impossible. If you are going to judge anyone maybe try judging yourself, see what you come up with. People entrusted with temporal authority should try to use it wisely, and we should all pray for that whether we call it praying, hoping, wishing or whatever. Take care. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.
Let's get back to basic. Good works are the fruit of love in our heart. If you have love in your heart, you have Christ because Christ is love. The bottomline here is Love as in love your neighbor as yourself. If there is love in every heart, there is peace and all these ramblings here is over. This is the sum of all Christ's teachings. Atheist and theist alike if they let love reign in their heart, harmony and peace reigns. What a wonderful world it could be.
Despite the slanderous term "militant atheist" some people are slinging around, the observant reader will see that all atheist arguments are actually based on reason, common sense, logic, and pure facts. Conversely, every single claim,comment, or response by a one of these brain-washed christians seems to ignore reason, ignore fact, and generally miss the point of every single atheist argument. So please, writers, if you wish to defend your religion, be sure to answer in kind with facts. Quoting a book written by man does not count as fact. Few things in this world can be considered true, mostly we call these things science.
I think that the images of our salvation are powerful. No one has photographic evidence of the Virgin Mary or Jesus Christ, but the images of them bring many to their knees. I think that there is a lot of confusion as to what is symbolic of God, whatever his form or messengers. Some say everything, some say only things positive and beautiful, etc. I have never seen anything that, in my mind, proves the existence of God. I don't think that it makes me wrong, or worthy of eternal damnation because when I see something pretty I don't think - "Whoa, that's God's work". I think that the main problem with fundamentalism is that I offend them if I simply don't believe, and their disrespect of my beliefs is part of their faith. For example, if a television show that was sympathetic to paganism aired - it would be viewed as an affront to Christianity. How is it unreasonable that we don't want something we believe forced down our throats? Don't get me wrong, many atheists argue the existence of God, but if I told you that you were going to suffer for eternity, wouldn't you feel threatened too?
And how many people have lost their eye sight from staring at the Sun in the hope of seeing the Virgin? Not a very healthy practice and something the Singularity is not too happy about. i.e. humans practicing stupidity!!!
Lourdes et al prove faith heals but Mary plays no part. Miracles are equally probable anywhere on earth but all miracles are limited in scope and limited to very few of any faith. e.g. no new arms or legs were ever given to amputees. (http://www.ntgateway.com/xtalk/crossan3.txt
As per Crossan, Westar E-discussion group, 6/14/03, message 20213, “I said that there was hardly a single miracle I was sure of as an historical event even though I was absolutely sure that Jesus was a healer.
Miracles do not happen except through a mental desire or faith to be cured since miracles violate God’s gift of natural law. If God were involved in our daily lives, cures would not be needed. You cannot have it both ways.
PeaceTroll, when you say “And if there be no God, Your thought will perish and then, where is your salvation” it sounds like you’re hedging your bets. Do you think God will fall for a common trick like that?
I was Christian. When I was, I could have cared less about the suffering of gays, because they had brought the wrath of God upon them. Also, women were less than men, and the cause of the ruin of humanity. I also felt that other religions were deserving of their hardships because Jesus didn't protect them. Now I am an atheist, and I believe that all human beings are equal and deserving of life, so that throws the argument of needing God for morality out the window. I don't need to fear retribution because I am not a dog, or a 5 year-old. I work on the system that the fact that one should always side with life as you yourself wants to live, what could be simpler than that? If you are saying that morality requires God, than it is obvious that you don't actually love God at all but fear his retribution. Fear and love are very, very different.
Mary C - Ranting vs responding may be in the eye of the beholder, and certainly people posting here can’t control each other's comings and goings. That would be a miracle, or perhaps paranoia on the part of the person making such an assumption
MKJ Could you define what you mean by “brazenly atheist” and how it relates to being "blindly preachy?” Thanks.
Yes , without God there is salvation. I have gone through two major life threatening illness and was saved, not by some imaginary God or Gods or Goddesses, but by very competent doctors and a very loving family who stood by me every minute of the day till recovered. During one episode it was a matter of about two minutes and I would have been dead. My family acted fast and my life was saved. I did not see any God behind all of this although I am sure all the Bible and Koran-thumpers will tell me God saved my life but they will never say that God killed thousands with his tsunamis and is killing killing Iraqi Muslims daily using other Iraqi Muslims to kill them.
I have seen no evidence of God either in the saving of my life or in the tsunamis.
In my case it was humans who saved me.
True salvation lies in having a close circle of friends and family that is suffused with love and helpfulness.
If there is a God out there and he is a good God then I am sure that is what he wants us to do: love and help each other. He would be beyond prayers and other ego-satisfyng rituals.
I think sometimes there is misunderstanding of what a Christian says is her "fallen" nature. It simply means we are part of the material universe-- clever animals actually that's all we are-- and ,as such, subject to the laws of all living creatures. The world is a beautiful place, but it is also full of risk and subject to terrible events over which humankind has almost no control.
Whilst some will rage against it and the Creator for having placed us in such a world, the fact remains it is all that is on offer.
Christians believe Christ offers an alternative both to the material world and to our animal nature but that is another story & against my intention not to evangelize.
I sympathize with the pagan outlook having felt the pull of it myself as a child.
Well folks, it looks that if I want to stimulate atheist output all I have to do is appear, make a few comments and then say goodbye. Most of the atheist response will come after I leave. Never fails.
Why is that? Is it a law of nature that militants prefer to rant than to respond? You don’t think I come back the next day and *read* all the bluster directed my way, do you? I don’t have a huge amount of time, and even if I did I would never try to convince any evangelical (which militant atheists are) of the error of their positions. Can’t be done. We all know that.
Anyway, I wanted to say something about miracles. For a fuller discussion see Malcolm McLean’s pamphlet “Ten Common Atheist Arguments: Refuted”, The No Evidence Argument.
Here is his treatment of miracles.
>“We can classify miracles into four categories.
The first category is when you pray for sausages, and a string of sausages materialises on the table in front of you. This is a violation of physical laws, clearly a miracle, and exceedingly rare. This is what happened at Fatima.
The second category is when you pray for sausages, and a man from Kraft immediately knocks on your door saying he is doing some market research, and could you sample some sausages and fill in a form? This is such an unreasonable coincidence that it would be churlish to deny a miracle. However if you asked the man he would say that the market research had been planned for six months, and your address was selected by the computer. The miracle is in the timing, not in the violation of physical laws.
The third category is when you pray for sausages, and a few minutes later remember that you have a tin in the back of the cupboard which you had forgotten about. This is the category that causes most trouble. It is an uncanny coincidence, but not so compelling that it is clear that supernatural intervention is involved. A certain type of Christian can easily persuade himself that he is in communication with God, and receives this type of miracle, when in fact he is just rationalising ordinary events.
The fourth category is when you pray for sausages, and nothing happens. However sausages are available in the supermarket, which is open, and you have money in your pocket to pay for them. You could have sausages if you want. This is a perfectly normal answer to a prayer, but doesn’t really qualify as a miracle. "
That is all from me on miracles, except to say, yes, we know there are many and many that can never be explained, however, even if there were none, the ministry of Jesus Christ is miracle enough and should suffice.
"Baby killer, rapist eh, just slightly anti-social moral viewpoints. They're not Wrong or bad, just bad for society and the victim and many others, but again, why should I care about that?"
For precisely that reason - bad for society and the victim. These are built-in reasons. Evolution favors those who get along well in societies - teamwork makes surviving much easier than rugged individualism for certain types of animals (of which we are one). All animals that live in social groups/herds/flocks practice such "morals."
Read "Our Inner Ape" by Frans de Waal for some eye-opening insights.
"And I have yet to hear an answer to the moral problem that sits well with me. If there are no metaphysical foundations, e.g. God, there is never a reason why I should accept anyone's moral code but the one I live by, no matter how inhumane and nihilistic mine may be."
Actually, that's what peddlers of 'absolute power' tell you... that without restraint, everyone would do horrible bad.
But in my experience, the 'horrible bad' comes when people either think they are being 'righteous' about it, or are already so irredeemably 'bad' that they may as well go ahead and do the 'bad' things that the 'Godly' told them must be a whole lot of fun, and thus to be desired, in order to ;virtuously' resist such artificial desires.
Human 'morality' is not about external control and punishment... it's about, if we become aware of the effects of our actions, instead of, or along with, at least, an idea of being punished or rewarded,
...To wit, we must be *taught* to hate in these ways so many find so important.
We are not as 'fallen' and 'evil' without 'control' as we're taught to fear we are.
Hurting people causes *built-in revulsion* in most circumstances. And people must be *taught* otherwise.
"Baby killer, rapist eh, just slightly anti-social moral viewpoints. They're not Wrong or bad, just bad for society and the victim and many others, but again, why should I care about that?"
Because you *can't help it.* If people don't make it too conveniently-abstract for you, say, such as you can have a church full of people sure a child is being molested but saying and doing nothing.
'Bad for the victim,' 'bad for society,' ...in *real* terms, you should need no teaching on this.
That should be enough.
Everything becoming indirect, dependent on external control, based on shame and fear, ...that's not imposing virtue, that's *making sheep of the wonderful creatures we really are.*
Displacing our Mother-given instincts onto some interpretation of some *book* doesn't create 'good for victims, good for society,'
"And who exactly will be doing the strangling of the last Christian with the interstines of the last Muslim?
A Buddhist? An Atheist? A Secular Humanist?"
Probably not, J. I think the implication is it'd be the last Muslim using their own guts, or possibly someone totally messed-up by all the gut-spilling.
Of course the world don't work that way, but not for lack of anybody trying.
The devout certainly have their blind spots, and I have very little patience with a lot of the more militant aspects of the religious, but I'm also frequently surprised by the ingnorance of so many of my fellow agnostics/atheists/whatevers.
So many, if not every single one of the principles we base our lives on, from scientific theory to morality, ultimately take their ground in one metaphysical assumption or another. To be brazenly atheist is about as silly, and just as annoying, as the blindly preachy.
And I have yet to hear an answer to the moral problem that sits well with me. If there are no metaphysical foundations, e.g. God, there is never a reason why I should accept anyone's moral code but the one I live by, no matter how inhumane and nihilistic mine may be.
Baby killer, rapist eh, just slightly anti-social moral viewpoints. They're not Wrong or bad, just bad for society and the victim and many others, but again, why should I care about that?
why is this here? this is a newpaper. too much bandwidth? eckhart says you can't save souls in bunches (also that god spits out the half-baked). don't you people have anything useful to do?
(It is, however, nice to now be able to put a dollar amount to how much these old men in dresses would pay to have pedophiles rather than woman as priests . . .)
why is this here? this is a newpaper. too much bandwidth? eckhart says you can't save souls in bunches (also that god spits out the half-baked). don't you people have anything useful to do?
(It is, however, nice to now be able to put a dollar amount to how much these old men in dresses would pay to have pedophiles rather than woman as priests . . .)
ANONYMOUS: "What's wrong with doing the right thing simply because it's the right thing?"
I was so brainwashed on this as a child, when I first became an atheist, I actually wondered if I would want to become a "bad" (immoral) person in the first moments of this realization.
Nope. I had never desired drugs, illicit sex, stealing, hurting person before. And I am exactly the same person afterward -- Except that I have more compassion now towards the poor and disadvantaged. Why -- I can't just say, Let God help them...
You say: "The Pope argues that Jesus did not come to bring us peace, universal prosperity, and a better world. No. Jesus came to bring us God."
Then why is it? "If God has spoken, why is the universe not convinced?" --Percy Bysshe Shelley
If God wanted people to believe -- they would sense it immediately. The test would be OBEDIENCE -- USING ONE'S FREE WILL TO BE GOOD (as the theology goes).
Instead, we see atheists and agnostics who don't believe. On top of that -- the vast majority of people worship the WRONG GOD -- because not all of the religious sects can be true!
But you have to make up SOMETHING for your superstitious beliefs, no doubt.
Having faith in something is ok. But call it what it is please.... It is hope -- not knowledge.
What's wrong with doing the right thing simply because it's the right thing? Seems to me that leading a life of service to others is full of meaning and virtue even without the belief in some sentient being that can manipulate the laws of nature.
Thank you Tim - I understand now that what you said was your opinion. I assume it's also your opinion when you say "God will open a river of hope and love and salvation for someone like this who honors Him" and "God will honor someone in a leadership role who will honor Him...."
It just sounds so absolute - as if you are certain about what God will do and how God feels.
You are most kind and polite to ask for some explanation from me and I am honored. I must tell you that I am no prophet nor am I the son of a prophet. My humble opinion is that Pope Benedict is a man who will be blessed and who will bless the Catholic church. This is based on the Pope's book and some reading I've done about him. He seems to be a man who is of the spirit of Christ. God will open a river of hope and love and salvation for someone like this who honors Him. Of course, we always will be faced with the bureaucracy within the church but leadership will make a difference in many if not most cases. God will honor someone in a leadership role who will honor Him and Benedict seems to have the right stuff. Let us hope that I am right.
There is a Graciously Organized Design to the One Awareness that is. Choose for others only as one would choose for One's Self. These words guarantee GRACIOUS CHOICES when honored. Allow others their choices and the benefit of those choices. Caution them about ungracious choices because the benefit of ungracious choices is INSTRUCTIVE CONSEQUENCE that reminds one that a more gracious choice was missed in the taking. Thus, one might appreciate the Law of Grace: All choices generate benefit for purposes of appreciation. Imagine 'other-wise' if you choose, but the design of the Universe will return One eventually to the awareness of the Law Of One, "We are all One".
'Good' is not the opposite of 'Evil', 'Gracious' is.
In fact, in a gracious Universe such as ours, 'Evil' seems to exist because one is allowed one's ungracious choics: 'Evil' is an ungracious assessment of ungracious choices, inviting instructive consequence with its use.
Our government and religious institutions would do well to remember and appreciate these things as so few of them currently do. Namaste.
There is a Graciously Organized Design to the One Awareness that is. Choose for others only as one would choose for One's Self. These words guarantee GRACIOUS CHOICES when honored. Allow others their choices and the benefit of those choices. Caution them about ungracious choices because the benefit of ungracious choices is INSTRUCTIVE CONSEQUENCE that reminds one that a more gracious choice was missed in the taking. Thus, one might appreciate the Law of Grace: All choices generate benefit for purposes of appreciation. Imagine 'other-wise' if you choose, but the design of the Universe will return One eventually to the awareness of the Law Of One, "We are all One".
'Good' is not the opposite of 'Evil', 'Gracious' is.
In fact, in a gracious Universe such as ours, 'Evil' seems to exist because one is allowed one's ungracious choics: 'Evil' is an ungracious assessment of ungracious choices, inviting instructive consequence with its use.
Our government and religious institutions would do well to remember and appreciate these things as so few of them currently do. Namaste.
Oh, Mary, you are so brainwashed! I guess it's not hard to understand - it begins in the cradle from your parents and is continued by both church and school every day of your little Catholic life.
The people at Fatima were all as brainwashed as you. They were in religious ecstasy, and they all were told to expect a miracle, and told to turn and look at the Sun when the time came (this was possible because there was a heavy fog).
They didn't all report the same thing. Some said they saw the face of the virgin. Some said the Sun spun around itself like a ring of fireworks. Some said the Sun lowered itself so close to the Earth that it almost burned it. Gradually, they got their stories straight by running around asking each other what they'd seen. BTW, 70,000 is a vastly inflated estimate of the crowd.
The photographer who was there to report on the event saw nothing unusual.
B16 can't even get away from his own mouth/speeches and he is supposed to put an end to sin???? Limbo should have ended before it started but somehow B16 continues the idiocy of the place.
Your Ecati-on "New Name" is "The Lion", Praise the Lord/Eclat + "i" & OURS Brother(s) the "Care Takers of Joktan , not Peleg, good Folk.
S H O L O M!
P.s. Don't pick-up too many Furtilizer Kibutzim Bags". Huggs & kisses & Be a Gazeent a Hay! Similar Mr. "LION"! You arew ECLATi-On and all you did Sir, is OURS prophecy, "Together Forever With bSource-ONE, Lord Hashem G-d Almighty, that has Commeth, & no Joke! Ya. Duces Facta!
">Jesus said he was God, performed many miracles, was crucified and rose from the dead after three days. Other Christian martyrs and saints have also performed thousands of miracles. Mostly they concern cures, but in 1917, 70,000 people at Fatima saw the sun dance in the sky. YOu may discount them, you may try to explain them, but you cannot say evidence doesn't exist."
I am sorry, just because someone said that Jesus said that he was God doesn't necessarily make it so. And just because the bible says there were miracles doesn't necessarily make it so. It's called hearsay.
Have you ever been to the desert on a really, really hot day? Everything dances! Especially after you stand in 120 degree weather for an hour or so.
Wikipedia on Evidence:
Evidence in its broadest sense, refers to anything that is used to determine or demonstrate the truth of an assertion. Philosophically, evidence can include propositions which are presumed to be true used in support of other propositions that are presumed to be falsifiable. The term has specialized meanings when used with respect to specific fields, such as policy, scientific research, criminal investigations, and legal discourse.
The most immediate form of evidence available to an individual is the observations of that person's own senses. For example an observer wishing for evidence that the sky is blue need only look at the sky. However this same example illustrates some of the difficulties of evidence as well:
someone who was blue-yellow color blind, but did not know it, would have a very different perception of what color the sky was than someone who was not. Even simple sensory perceptions (qualia) ultimately are subjective; guaranteeing that the same information can be considered somehow true in an objective sense is the main challenge of establishing standards of evidence.
there is also the question of what is meant by 'blue', and how we measure it. (If determined by a particular wave-length of colour - then how do we actually measure this?
there is also the question of how evidence 'translates' e.g. is 'blau' in German universally translated as 'blue' in English: Germans may have different words for different parts of the spectrum; thus 'evidence' is a social construction.
Back to my own words, the German word blau can mean the color blue, but it can also mean that you are drunk, or sad, or that you are not going to work or school. This just from teh top of my mind. I prbably could find other meanings.
So your evidence, the bible which you read in English, could very well have been totally diluted by translations that are incorrect.
>Yoyo, *YOU* need to get yourself a thesaurus. Stop using this stupid phrase! (Please?)
For a religious person you sound mighty condescending, Mary. Where's the humility?
>Well, wiseclam, there is evidence.
Why get personal because someone doesn't share your beliefs? Calling him sarcastic names only reflects badly on you as a religious person.
>Jesus said he was God, performed many miracles, was crucified and rose from the dead after three days. Other Christian martyrs and saints have also performed thousands of miracles. Mostly they concern cures, but in 1917, 70,000 people at Fatima saw the sun dance in the sky. YOu may discount them, you may try to explain them, but you cannot say evidence doesn't exist.
Nothing that you have listed as "evidence" stands up to verification in the way real evidence must. It's like saying that there is evidence that Elvis is still alive because thousands of people have reported seeing him.
Tim - is this a prediction or an assertion? "Under Benedict people will return to the faith because obedience is rewarded and folks want more than milk. Most, if not all of the tragic sins will be stopped because under Benedict this will not tolerated."
If a prediction, why do you think so? and if an assertion, how do you know?
Monsignor, the Pope's new book is a good read and I am trying to finish the last few pages. You honor your Pope by quoting from his book and in this case I believe that this is well deserved by this Pope. Though I am not a Catholic we are united in Christ. It is encouraging that your church is now being lead by a man who is true to the faith and does not try to be PC. Your church suffered under past poor leadership that was more interested in being liked. Your last Pope was adored by the world and the media and this should have been a warning sign. Under Benedict people will return to the faith because obedience is rewarded and folks want more than milk. Most, if not all of the tragic sins will be stopped because under Benedict this will not tolerated. Leadership makes all the difference and as an outsider looking in -- so far so good.
Getting back to God making the sun dance in 1917. I guess it could have been a lot worse. He could have sent a tidal wave or an earthquake.
But if something bad like that had happened, I bet God wouldn’t have gotten any credit for it. He only gets credit for the good stuff, like if just a few people avoid getting drowned or swallowed by the earth. Of course, he also gets credit for the fanciful but inconsequential stuff, like making the sun dance or showing his face on a tortilla or shedding a tear through the eye of a religious statue. You can discount it, but you can’t deny the evidence.
This many not make much sense, until you accept that God works in mysterious ways.
Ah the proof of the Bible lies here before us, Were we Christians not told byGod though the Apostle Paul that the natural man can neither understand nor accept spiritual things for they are foolishness to him.
One other thing Bretheren, even should a natural man enter into heaven within days he would be begging for the comforts of Hell because the rationale under which heaven operates would be so utterly alien to his mind that he simply culdn't stand it.
Mr. Mark I'm a Catholic and I agree with you that humans have to save the world! That's what it means to do good work. Those who do good work for merit are not sincere! And I agree Luke, Militant anything has to go! Where all people and we all have our own opinions! I'm thankful that we live in a country that allows us to disagree on faith.
I see the point of how someone from a non-Christian belief would be angered if someone told them that they were absolutely wrong and they were burning in hell for it. I mean, do you think it would be a little irritating? How is that being militant?
I think either way, we can see these folks saying, 'Any good that's done is cause of our God,' and anything good not done in the name of our religion 'doesn't count' when these Catholic guys claim to be better than everyone else.
Mary Cunningham
Hi Mary. Sorry my comments angered you.
It's actually the first time I have used an "outside the box" arguement to try to convey how I see religion and the god idea in relation to reality.
I thought it worked rather well.
Just like you,perhaps,I try to find new and fresh ways to express my ideas...and for me the box thing was a new way.I like it.
Of course the real issue behind your anger is the fact that I don't see the world as you do.
Have you ever wondered really...whether m
All Comments (98)
It's a great achievement for Islamic leaders and scholars as well as Newsweek and the Washington post to present this imperative opportunity for inter cultural and global philosophical dialogue. What's important is that by exchanging our ideas and comments regarding inter religious relations and world events that affect our views of each other as fellow human beings. Since the advent of humanity, We strove to make sense of the world we live in and the lives we've experienced. Worldwide curiosities to learn the true nature of life and our universe is an exceptionally rare virtue upon life on Earth. In other words, we're the only known species on the planet who've pursued to unravel these great mysteries and developed written philosophies based upon our understanding of the world around us.
One such philosophy that lasted throughout the ages of humanity is commonly known as religion and spirituality. Ever since our early belief in the Sky God and the God Mother from ancient Pagan times, we vigorously pursued to unravel the truth about our most profound questions. As any educated person would know that religion and their core beliefs or faith have evolved over time. Paganism, Monotheism and Polytheism have been influenced by humanity as these great philosophies have influenced our perceptions and decisions in life over the ages. Over time humanity has embraced diverse religious faiths and spiritual convictions that continue to influence our behavior in our times and most likely beyond.
What's vital for humanity's progress and even survival is to know the true nature of faith itself. To understand the true origins of faith. But most of all, is to accept the truth for whatever it may be. Each one of us will learn the absolute truth once we die. But until that time comes for anyone of us to depart this world, we really don't know the answer to God's existence nor do we have the absolute truth in regards to the true nature of God. Besides if we did possess the truth, there would've been only one religion on Earth with no diversification of any way, shape of form. There would only be one holy scripture written throughout human history.
Considering one's religious faith to be absolute, while considering others to be false would be ethnocentric at best. While collectively searching to unravel the mysteries on nature, life and the universe through sincere reasoning and serious research would be enlightening at its worst. Most importantly, we must accept the fact is that none of us have conclusive evidence to confirm our core beliefs and there's always an immanent change that our most cherished beliefs could be wrong. Our greatest challenge would be to tolerate the truth no matter what it may ultimately be. With such an open mind, we would be able to overcome any future discovery that would contradict our faith regarding the true nature of life, spirituality and divinity.
Humanity does have the ability to achieve such a social achievement. However, it's solely up to humanity and not any other entity or groups of entities to decide our destinies. Each one of us has a choice to make; either hopelessly engaging into meaningless inter cultural conflicts or combine our scientific and cultural gifts to thrive into an enlightened global civilization that could ultimately expand beyond our solar system. The choice is yours, and the time to make it is now!
August 5, 2007 12:20 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on August 5, 2007 00:20
I will pray for you, Virginia. And you can pray for yourself -- Jesus Himself taught us the Lord's Prayer. Please find a clergyman to talk to. You sound so discouraged you need some help. God bless you!
I would have answered before but I jus saw the thread.
July 2, 2007 10:27 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 2, 2007 10:27
I'm praying for you, Virginia. I would have started before, but I just looked at this thread.
Sure, you can pray for yourself! Jesus did, and when He was asked how we should prayer, He made up the Our Father prayer! So do pray the Our Father.
You sound so discouraged, it might be good if you talked to a clergyperson. Look in the Yellow Pages under churches, and find a denomination you like. Call until you find someone who will talk to you. Or find a therapist who understands your problems. I'll pray you find somebody.
God bless you. You are not a bad person. If you were you wouldn't be concerned about doing the right thing. There is no such thing as a path of no return.
July 1, 2007 9:28 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 1, 2007 21:28
I have found that God is the light of the day that wakes me up everyday. He saved me from the burning pits of Hell but, latly I have been living in sin and I am not proud of it at all. I just need someone here to pray for me because it is a sin to pray for yourself. I have sinned enough without adding to it I have done so much wrong i don't know how I deserve such a wonderful thing like God but, I know he still loves me no matter what I do good or bad but, I need him to led me in the right direction and down the right path because i and on the path to no return an I just need a few prayers so can someone please help me. If You Will Please Just Contact Me and Tell Me Your Praying For Me Here Is My E-mail Address green_eyed_chick_05@yahoo.com
June 23, 2007 3:40 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 23, 2007 15:40
I have found that God is the light of the day that wakes me up everyday. He saved me from the burning pits of Hell but, latly I have been living in sin and I am not proud of it at all. I just need someone here to pray for me because it is a sin to pray for yourself. I have sinned enough without adding to it I have done so much wrong i don't know how I deserve such a wonderful thing like God but, I know he still loves me no matter what I do good or bad but, I need him to led me in the right direction and down the right path because i and on the path to no return an I just need a few prayers so can someone please help me. If You Will Please Just Contact Me and Tell Me Your Praying For Me Here Is My E-mail Address green_eyed_chick_05@yahoo.com
June 23, 2007 3:40 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 23, 2007 15:40
What is it that the leaders of the Catholic church have, is chutzpa, the religious kind? I am a born catholic, taught in church schools all the way through Notre Dame. (that's 16 years of religious education) And it is true we were taught that the ROMAN CATHOLIC church had charge of the ONE TRUE RELIGION. So perhaps its not chutzpa, perhaps it is what the church teaches its members to believe is truth.
Thus when a leader of the church says we all must be saved translated from the Latin that means if you are not a member of the Holy Roman Catholic Church and do not believe in its primacy here on earth and later in whatever, you are out of luck and its hellfire and damnation for you.
There is only one way to be saved. It isn't via some sort of good feeling born again inspiration, the HRCC translates "Saved' to mean a member of the Catholic church in good standing.
The church has not given up its claim to be the successor to Peter nor does it include those who call themselves, Evangelicals, who are members of other versions of "Christianity", just those who a Catholics.
Remember the inquisition? Protestant evangelicals who think the HRCC is on your side and speaks your language should remember it. If, working together you succeed in "reclaiming this country for Christ", you will very quickly find out who the group is that is in charge of the "Christian Country" and it won't be you all.
We don't want to be saved, we don't want to be Catholic, and you have no business thinking you have any business interfering in our lives. Thanks but no thanks.
June 17, 2007 2:04 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 17, 2007 14:04
Mary:
" think sometimes there is misunderstanding of what a Christian says is her "fallen" nature. It simply means we are part of the material universe-- clever animals actually that's all we are-- and ,as such, subject to the laws of all living creatures. The world is a beautiful place, but it is also full of risk and subject to terrible events over which humankind has almost no control."
Fair enough. Of course, in practice, this 'fallen nature' idea comes with ideas that people
(particularly nonbelievers) are essentially evil and must be controlled by religion, that the world's too base and shameful to be involved with, and that science is a rival religion of some kind.
Not to mention a lot of people seeming to be *living down to this idea* in order, I think, subconsciously, to 'prove' that they *need* to be saved. It's a dynamic I've certainly seen in abusive clergy: professionally trying to tell people they're awful and need saving, and, I think, trying to sell the idea that ''sin' must be so fun and tempting in order to be such an insidious threat,' that they stop seeing the victims *as* people, with a goodness they may be acting to crush, cause they stop seeing people, and only see 'sin,' and their drama becomes all about themselves being 'saved' from this 'sin'
...and perhaps they identify with some abusive images of a deity that becomes *more important than and outside* the actions themselves.
Certainly, the idea 'man is fallen, particularly without our religion' is used to denigrate and defame others, divorcing people's perception of others from the realities of what each do, and turning it to 'who's identified with the right authority.'
"Whilst some will rage against it and the Creator for having placed us in such a world, the fact remains it is all that is on offer."
"Christians believe Christ offers an alternative both to the material world and to our animal nature but that is another story & against my intention not to evangelize.""
I think if you start from the presumption that a particular Creator *placed* us in a world that just doesn't fit with the depiction of that Creator's will and nature, then perhaps it's natural that people who are taught it's psychologically-unacceptable not to accept the religion anyway, ( lest some terror of death and/or punishment take over,) well, then, it's natural for those people to look for someone to *blame* for this state of affairs.
Christians might well blame God or 'sinners' or 'fallen nature,' but, well, Pagans find it much more natural to start with the world and find the Gods there.
Certainly, Wicca has its basis in a pretty darn heterosexual model of the Gods, but there's very little homophobia in the community, I think because we don't start with the theological *presumption* 'people being gay means 'something's wrong with the world,' rather, "Obviously, the Lord and Lady have gay kids, too."
:)
I certainly don't hate the Gods for my pain in this life, ...and I certainly don't hate *yours* for things I don't believe he really did. :)
However, I do think this idea of 'fallen nature' leads to much abuse and stress and blindness, even as there may be more mature ways to cope with the idea.
There's still the teaching that 'People who don't follow this religion do so because without it, people are essentially bad and fallen, ...they're selfish, lazy, hedonistic, cruel, irresponsible, 'God-hating,' evil, and all that stuff. '
Personally, I think if you tell people that about themselves, on some level, they believe it.
And often live down to it so they can keep being 'saved.'
Then accuse others of being bad things cause they don't play that game, even if you may find that outside it, there's really *less* appeal to selfishness and hurting others, cause that's just not the central drama.
Not to sound naive, but that's really not our nature. We can be better. And often are.
"I sympathize with the pagan outlook having felt the pull of it myself as a child."
I suppose a lot of this is in our nature, too. :)
June 14, 2007 1:27 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 14, 2007 13:27
http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com/
June 13, 2007 8:27 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 13, 2007 20:27
Mary C.,
I can speak only for myself, but your presence or absence at any given time on the forum has/had absolutely no bearing on what I post(ed). I reply to what I read when I read it - I'm on only periodically myself.
Further, I'm not afraid of you, so why should I want only to speak in your absence?
As to your list of sausage (unclean!) "miracles", only the first would qualify in any way to me, and there is no independently verifiable case of any such thing ever happening. Including (perhaps especially) at Fatima. People can easily be deluded - even en masse if their heads are in the right (or wrong) place - and these people, by definition, had their heads in such a place.
There are natural astrophysical laws, and had the Sun actually done any such thing as was reported by the "true believers", there would have been enormous consequences that no one could have failed to notice.
June 13, 2007 3:44 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 13, 2007 15:44
To Luke: Actually reading your post of 6-13-2007-8:07 AM it sounds like you actually became a christian in your heart after you stopped believing in your head. All of this hatred being spewed out in God's name is pitiful considering that God is Pure Love. To everyone: I have met God, the Trinity, I did not see Him, by the way God is not a male or female but I have to use some kind of pronoun, but God the Father came into my heart, the Holy Spirit came into my body and He revealed to me that Jesus is present in the Eucharist. God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof. Those people hiding behind their religion, whatever it is, especially if they call themselves christians and spewing out hatred of their fellow man, male and female, are going to be rather unpleasantly surprised, that is not even close to being what Jesus taught and they don't seem to have a clue to what being a christian is. I have also met satan and he is not nice, he is not a male either but an angel very unnice and I might add very upset, well that is his problem not mine. The bible happens to be true even though so many people twist it with their own prejudices into making God a real piece of garbage but God is Pure Love and His Plan is for all of His children whether people like it or not. I am the New Testament Moses and it came as quite a shock to me when I found out. To those who talk about religious indoctrination well God in His wisdom had me walk away from church for about 30 years and one of the reasons was that it was becoming a religion rather than faith and if I didn't know some things, well I tell you some "good catholics and good christians of other persuations" would have made me leave again but I have a job to do now and God is going to see me through. It doesn't matter if anyone believes a word that I say about what has happened to me, I am only a messenger anyway, but it is that time and I repeat God is a searcher of hearts and minds, it does matter what you do and why you do it, we have free will and we will all be judged which is only fair but guess what God's Mercy is even better than a lot of people seem to want at least for the other person. God asked us to forgive everyone, judge no one, condemn no one, kind of simple isn't it, but somewhat hard or virtually impossible. If you are going to judge anyone maybe try judging yourself, see what you come up with. People entrusted with temporal authority should try to use it wisely, and we should all pray for that whether we call it praying, hoping, wishing or whatever. Take care. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.
June 13, 2007 11:07 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 13, 2007 11:07
Let's get back to basic. Good works are the fruit of love in our heart. If you have love in your heart, you have Christ because Christ is love. The bottomline here is Love as in love your neighbor as yourself. If there is love in every heart, there is peace and all these ramblings here is over. This is the sum of all Christ's teachings. Atheist and theist alike if they let love reign in their heart, harmony and peace reigns. What a wonderful world it could be.
June 13, 2007 10:42 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 13, 2007 10:42
Despite the slanderous term "militant atheist" some people are slinging around, the observant reader will see that all atheist arguments are actually based on reason, common sense, logic, and pure facts. Conversely, every single claim,comment, or response by a one of these brain-washed christians seems to ignore reason, ignore fact, and generally miss the point of every single atheist argument. So please, writers, if you wish to defend your religion, be sure to answer in kind with facts. Quoting a book written by man does not count as fact. Few things in this world can be considered true, mostly we call these things science.
June 13, 2007 9:50 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 13, 2007 09:50
I think that the images of our salvation are powerful. No one has photographic evidence of the Virgin Mary or Jesus Christ, but the images of them bring many to their knees. I think that there is a lot of confusion as to what is symbolic of God, whatever his form or messengers. Some say everything, some say only things positive and beautiful, etc. I have never seen anything that, in my mind, proves the existence of God. I don't think that it makes me wrong, or worthy of eternal damnation because when I see something pretty I don't think - "Whoa, that's God's work". I think that the main problem with fundamentalism is that I offend them if I simply don't believe, and their disrespect of my beliefs is part of their faith. For example, if a television show that was sympathetic to paganism aired - it would be viewed as an affront to Christianity. How is it unreasonable that we don't want something we believe forced down our throats? Don't get me wrong, many atheists argue the existence of God, but if I told you that you were going to suffer for eternity, wouldn't you feel threatened too?
June 13, 2007 9:44 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 13, 2007 09:44
Mary C,
And how many people have lost their eye sight from staring at the Sun in the hope of seeing the Virgin? Not a very healthy practice and something the Singularity is not too happy about. i.e. humans practicing stupidity!!!
June 13, 2007 9:17 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 13, 2007 09:17
Mary C,
Lourdes et al prove faith heals but Mary plays no part. Miracles are equally probable anywhere on earth but all miracles are limited in scope and limited to very few of any faith. e.g. no new arms or legs were ever given to amputees. (http://www.ntgateway.com/xtalk/crossan3.txt
As per Crossan, Westar E-discussion group, 6/14/03, message 20213, “I said that there was hardly a single miracle I was sure of as an historical event even though I was absolutely sure that Jesus was a healer.
Miracles do not happen except through a mental desire or faith to be cured since miracles violate God’s gift of natural law. If God were involved in our daily lives, cures would not be needed. You cannot have it both ways.
June 13, 2007 8:53 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 13, 2007 08:53
PeaceTroll, when you say “And if there be no God, Your thought will perish and then, where is your salvation” it sounds like you’re hedging your bets. Do you think God will fall for a common trick like that?
Luke - Beautiful. Thanks
June 13, 2007 8:24 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 13, 2007 08:24
I was Christian. When I was, I could have cared less about the suffering of gays, because they had brought the wrath of God upon them. Also, women were less than men, and the cause of the ruin of humanity. I also felt that other religions were deserving of their hardships because Jesus didn't protect them. Now I am an atheist, and I believe that all human beings are equal and deserving of life, so that throws the argument of needing God for morality out the window. I don't need to fear retribution because I am not a dog, or a 5 year-old. I work on the system that the fact that one should always side with life as you yourself wants to live, what could be simpler than that? If you are saying that morality requires God, than it is obvious that you don't actually love God at all but fear his retribution. Fear and love are very, very different.
June 13, 2007 8:07 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 13, 2007 08:07
Mary C - Ranting vs responding may be in the eye of the beholder, and certainly people posting here can’t control each other's comings and goings. That would be a miracle, or perhaps paranoia on the part of the person making such an assumption
MKJ Could you define what you mean by “brazenly atheist” and how it relates to being "blindly preachy?” Thanks.
June 13, 2007 8:06 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 13, 2007 08:06
Ted Baines,
You will still die.
And if there be no God.
Your thought will perish and then, where is your salvation?
You will be as if you never were.
for me and my house, we shall follow the Lord.
June 13, 2007 8:01 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 13, 2007 08:01
Yes , without God there is salvation. I have gone through two major life threatening illness and was saved, not by some imaginary God or Gods or Goddesses, but by very competent doctors and a very loving family who stood by me every minute of the day till recovered. During one episode it was a matter of about two minutes and I would have been dead. My family acted fast and my life was saved. I did not see any God behind all of this although I am sure all the Bible and Koran-thumpers will tell me God saved my life but they will never say that God killed thousands with his tsunamis and is killing killing Iraqi Muslims daily using other Iraqi Muslims to kill them.
I have seen no evidence of God either in the saving of my life or in the tsunamis.
In my case it was humans who saved me.
True salvation lies in having a close circle of friends and family that is suffused with love and helpfulness.
If there is a God out there and he is a good God then I am sure that is what he wants us to do: love and help each other. He would be beyond prayers and other ego-satisfyng rituals.
June 13, 2007 4:58 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 13, 2007 04:58
Paganplace (and other Wiccans)
I think sometimes there is misunderstanding of what a Christian says is her "fallen" nature. It simply means we are part of the material universe-- clever animals actually that's all we are-- and ,as such, subject to the laws of all living creatures. The world is a beautiful place, but it is also full of risk and subject to terrible events over which humankind has almost no control.
Whilst some will rage against it and the Creator for having placed us in such a world, the fact remains it is all that is on offer.
Christians believe Christ offers an alternative both to the material world and to our animal nature but that is another story & against my intention not to evangelize.
I sympathize with the pagan outlook having felt the pull of it myself as a child.
June 13, 2007 4:22 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 13, 2007 04:22
Well folks, it looks that if I want to stimulate atheist output all I have to do is appear, make a few comments and then say goodbye. Most of the atheist response will come after I leave. Never fails.
Why is that? Is it a law of nature that militants prefer to rant than to respond? You don’t think I come back the next day and *read* all the bluster directed my way, do you? I don’t have a huge amount of time, and even if I did I would never try to convince any evangelical (which militant atheists are) of the error of their positions. Can’t be done. We all know that.
Anyway, I wanted to say something about miracles. For a fuller discussion see Malcolm McLean’s pamphlet “Ten Common Atheist Arguments: Refuted”, The No Evidence Argument.
Here is his treatment of miracles.
>“We can classify miracles into four categories.
The first category is when you pray for sausages, and a string of sausages materialises on the table in front of you. This is a violation of physical laws, clearly a miracle, and exceedingly rare. This is what happened at Fatima.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_of_the_Sun
The second category is when you pray for sausages, and a man from Kraft immediately knocks on your door saying he is doing some market research, and could you sample some sausages and fill in a form? This is such an unreasonable coincidence that it would be churlish to deny a miracle. However if you asked the man he would say that the market research had been planned for six months, and your address was selected by the computer. The miracle is in the timing, not in the violation of physical laws.
The third category is when you pray for sausages, and a few minutes later remember that you have a tin in the back of the cupboard which you had forgotten about. This is the category that causes most trouble. It is an uncanny coincidence, but not so compelling that it is clear that supernatural intervention is involved. A certain type of Christian can easily persuade himself that he is in communication with God, and receives this type of miracle, when in fact he is just rationalising ordinary events.
The fourth category is when you pray for sausages, and nothing happens. However sausages are available in the supermarket, which is open, and you have money in your pocket to pay for them. You could have sausages if you want. This is a perfectly normal answer to a prayer, but doesn’t really qualify as a miracle. "
That is all from me on miracles, except to say, yes, we know there are many and many that can never be explained, however, even if there were none, the ministry of Jesus Christ is miracle enough and should suffice.
June 13, 2007 4:11 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 13, 2007 04:11
"Baby killer, rapist eh, just slightly anti-social moral viewpoints. They're not Wrong or bad, just bad for society and the victim and many others, but again, why should I care about that?"
For precisely that reason - bad for society and the victim. These are built-in reasons. Evolution favors those who get along well in societies - teamwork makes surviving much easier than rugged individualism for certain types of animals (of which we are one). All animals that live in social groups/herds/flocks practice such "morals."
Read "Our Inner Ape" by Frans de Waal for some eye-opening insights.
June 13, 2007 3:10 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 13, 2007 03:10
"And I have yet to hear an answer to the moral problem that sits well with me. If there are no metaphysical foundations, e.g. God, there is never a reason why I should accept anyone's moral code but the one I live by, no matter how inhumane and nihilistic mine may be."
Actually, that's what peddlers of 'absolute power' tell you... that without restraint, everyone would do horrible bad.
But in my experience, the 'horrible bad' comes when people either think they are being 'righteous' about it, or are already so irredeemably 'bad' that they may as well go ahead and do the 'bad' things that the 'Godly' told them must be a whole lot of fun, and thus to be desired, in order to ;virtuously' resist such artificial desires.
Human 'morality' is not about external control and punishment... it's about, if we become aware of the effects of our actions, instead of, or along with, at least, an idea of being punished or rewarded,
...To wit, we must be *taught* to hate in these ways so many find so important.
We are not as 'fallen' and 'evil' without 'control' as we're taught to fear we are.
Hurting people causes *built-in revulsion* in most circumstances. And people must be *taught* otherwise.
"Baby killer, rapist eh, just slightly anti-social moral viewpoints. They're not Wrong or bad, just bad for society and the victim and many others, but again, why should I care about that?"
Because you *can't help it.* If people don't make it too conveniently-abstract for you, say, such as you can have a church full of people sure a child is being molested but saying and doing nothing.
'Bad for the victim,' 'bad for society,' ...in *real* terms, you should need no teaching on this.
That should be enough.
Everything becoming indirect, dependent on external control, based on shame and fear, ...that's not imposing virtue, that's *making sheep of the wonderful creatures we really are.*
Displacing our Mother-given instincts onto some interpretation of some *book* doesn't create 'good for victims, good for society,'
...It just creates *excuses.*
And denial.
And shame.
June 13, 2007 2:24 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 13, 2007 02:24
"And who exactly will be doing the strangling of the last Christian with the interstines of the last Muslim?
A Buddhist? An Atheist? A Secular Humanist?"
Probably not, J. I think the implication is it'd be the last Muslim using their own guts, or possibly someone totally messed-up by all the gut-spilling.
Of course the world don't work that way, but not for lack of anybody trying.
June 13, 2007 1:56 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 13, 2007 01:56
The devout certainly have their blind spots, and I have very little patience with a lot of the more militant aspects of the religious, but I'm also frequently surprised by the ingnorance of so many of my fellow agnostics/atheists/whatevers.
So many, if not every single one of the principles we base our lives on, from scientific theory to morality, ultimately take their ground in one metaphysical assumption or another. To be brazenly atheist is about as silly, and just as annoying, as the blindly preachy.
And I have yet to hear an answer to the moral problem that sits well with me. If there are no metaphysical foundations, e.g. God, there is never a reason why I should accept anyone's moral code but the one I live by, no matter how inhumane and nihilistic mine may be.
Baby killer, rapist eh, just slightly anti-social moral viewpoints. They're not Wrong or bad, just bad for society and the victim and many others, but again, why should I care about that?
Yes I'm conflicted
June 13, 2007 1:13 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 13, 2007 01:13
why is this here? this is a newpaper. too much bandwidth? eckhart says you can't save souls in bunches (also that god spits out the half-baked). don't you people have anything useful to do?
(It is, however, nice to now be able to put a dollar amount to how much these old men in dresses would pay to have pedophiles rather than woman as priests . . .)
June 12, 2007 11:07 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 23:07
why is this here? this is a newpaper. too much bandwidth? eckhart says you can't save souls in bunches (also that god spits out the half-baked). don't you people have anything useful to do?
(It is, however, nice to now be able to put a dollar amount to how much these old men in dresses would pay to have pedophiles rather than woman as priests . . .)
June 12, 2007 11:07 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 23:07
ANONYMOUS: "What's wrong with doing the right thing simply because it's the right thing?"
I was so brainwashed on this as a child, when I first became an atheist, I actually wondered if I would want to become a "bad" (immoral) person in the first moments of this realization.
Nope. I had never desired drugs, illicit sex, stealing, hurting person before. And I am exactly the same person afterward -- Except that I have more compassion now towards the poor and disadvantaged. Why -- I can't just say, Let God help them...
June 12, 2007 10:16 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 22:16
You say: "The Pope argues that Jesus did not come to bring us peace, universal prosperity, and a better world. No. Jesus came to bring us God."
Then why is it? "If God has spoken, why is the universe not convinced?" --Percy Bysshe Shelley
If God wanted people to believe -- they would sense it immediately. The test would be OBEDIENCE -- USING ONE'S FREE WILL TO BE GOOD (as the theology goes).
Instead, we see atheists and agnostics who don't believe. On top of that -- the vast majority of people worship the WRONG GOD -- because not all of the religious sects can be true!
But you have to make up SOMETHING for your superstitious beliefs, no doubt.
Having faith in something is ok. But call it what it is please.... It is hope -- not knowledge.
June 12, 2007 10:08 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 22:08
What's wrong with doing the right thing simply because it's the right thing? Seems to me that leading a life of service to others is full of meaning and virtue even without the belief in some sentient being that can manipulate the laws of nature.
June 12, 2007 10:05 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 22:05
Thank you Tim - I understand now that what you said was your opinion. I assume it's also your opinion when you say "God will open a river of hope and love and salvation for someone like this who honors Him" and "God will honor someone in a leadership role who will honor Him...."
It just sounds so absolute - as if you are certain about what God will do and how God feels.
June 12, 2007 9:18 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 21:18
E-Favorite
You are most kind and polite to ask for some explanation from me and I am honored. I must tell you that I am no prophet nor am I the son of a prophet. My humble opinion is that Pope Benedict is a man who will be blessed and who will bless the Catholic church. This is based on the Pope's book and some reading I've done about him. He seems to be a man who is of the spirit of Christ. God will open a river of hope and love and salvation for someone like this who honors Him. Of course, we always will be faced with the bureaucracy within the church but leadership will make a difference in many if not most cases. God will honor someone in a leadership role who will honor Him and Benedict seems to have the right stuff. Let us hope that I am right.
June 12, 2007 9:07 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 21:07
Candide:)
You hope : "Ah that glorious day, when the last Christian is strangled in the intestines of the last Muslim."
And who exactly will be doing the strangling of the last Christian with the interstines of the last Muslim?
A Buddhist? An Atheist? A Secular Humanist?
June 12, 2007 9:05 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 21:05
Please , Use your "Refresh" Icon to Display All Current Types of entry's. Ya Ya.
June 12, 2007 7:42 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 19:42
There is a Graciously Organized Design to the One Awareness that is. Choose for others only as one would choose for One's Self. These words guarantee GRACIOUS CHOICES when honored. Allow others their choices and the benefit of those choices. Caution them about ungracious choices because the benefit of ungracious choices is INSTRUCTIVE CONSEQUENCE that reminds one that a more gracious choice was missed in the taking. Thus, one might appreciate the Law of Grace: All choices generate benefit for purposes of appreciation. Imagine 'other-wise' if you choose, but the design of the Universe will return One eventually to the awareness of the Law Of One, "We are all One".
'Good' is not the opposite of 'Evil', 'Gracious' is.
In fact, in a gracious Universe such as ours, 'Evil' seems to exist because one is allowed one's ungracious choics: 'Evil' is an ungracious assessment of ungracious choices, inviting instructive consequence with its use.
Our government and religious institutions would do well to remember and appreciate these things as so few of them currently do. Namaste.
June 12, 2007 7:31 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 19:31
There is a Graciously Organized Design to the One Awareness that is. Choose for others only as one would choose for One's Self. These words guarantee GRACIOUS CHOICES when honored. Allow others their choices and the benefit of those choices. Caution them about ungracious choices because the benefit of ungracious choices is INSTRUCTIVE CONSEQUENCE that reminds one that a more gracious choice was missed in the taking. Thus, one might appreciate the Law of Grace: All choices generate benefit for purposes of appreciation. Imagine 'other-wise' if you choose, but the design of the Universe will return One eventually to the awareness of the Law Of One, "We are all One".
'Good' is not the opposite of 'Evil', 'Gracious' is.
In fact, in a gracious Universe such as ours, 'Evil' seems to exist because one is allowed one's ungracious choics: 'Evil' is an ungracious assessment of ungracious choices, inviting instructive consequence with its use.
Our government and religious institutions would do well to remember and appreciate these things as so few of them currently do. Namaste.
June 12, 2007 7:31 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 19:31
Since everyone probably realizes that ANONYMOUS is a vicious anti-semite I won't offer my comment on him.
June 12, 2007 6:39 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 18:39
Oh, Mary, you are so brainwashed! I guess it's not hard to understand - it begins in the cradle from your parents and is continued by both church and school every day of your little Catholic life.
The people at Fatima were all as brainwashed as you. They were in religious ecstasy, and they all were told to expect a miracle, and told to turn and look at the Sun when the time came (this was possible because there was a heavy fog).
They didn't all report the same thing. Some said they saw the face of the virgin. Some said the Sun spun around itself like a ring of fireworks. Some said the Sun lowered itself so close to the Earth that it almost burned it. Gradually, they got their stories straight by running around asking each other what they'd seen. BTW, 70,000 is a vastly inflated estimate of the crowd.
The photographer who was there to report on the event saw nothing unusual.
June 12, 2007 6:18 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 18:18
B16 can't even get away from his own mouth/speeches and he is supposed to put an end to sin???? Limbo should have ended before it started but somehow B16 continues the idiocy of the place.
June 12, 2007 5:55 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 17:55
Mary, did Jesus make any albums or appear on TV? I guess that discredits your point entirely.
June 12, 2007 4:53 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 16:53
Mary, did Jesus make any albums or appear on TV. I guess that discredits your point entirely.
June 12, 2007 4:53 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 16:53
Att: N O R R I E H O Y T & Posterity, et al;
Your Ecati-on "New Name" is "The Lion", Praise the Lord/Eclat + "i" & OURS Brother(s) the "Care Takers of Joktan , not Peleg, good Folk.
S H O L O M!
P.s. Don't pick-up too many Furtilizer Kibutzim Bags". Huggs & kisses & Be a Gazeent a Hay! Similar Mr. "LION"! You arew ECLATi-On and all you did Sir, is OURS prophecy, "Together Forever With bSource-ONE, Lord Hashem G-d Almighty, that has Commeth, & no Joke! Ya. Duces Facta!
June 12, 2007 4:41 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 16:41
Mary,
you wrote:
">Jesus said he was God, performed many miracles, was crucified and rose from the dead after three days. Other Christian martyrs and saints have also performed thousands of miracles. Mostly they concern cures, but in 1917, 70,000 people at Fatima saw the sun dance in the sky. YOu may discount them, you may try to explain them, but you cannot say evidence doesn't exist."
I am sorry, just because someone said that Jesus said that he was God doesn't necessarily make it so. And just because the bible says there were miracles doesn't necessarily make it so. It's called hearsay.
Have you ever been to the desert on a really, really hot day? Everything dances! Especially after you stand in 120 degree weather for an hour or so.
Wikipedia on Evidence:
Evidence in its broadest sense, refers to anything that is used to determine or demonstrate the truth of an assertion. Philosophically, evidence can include propositions which are presumed to be true used in support of other propositions that are presumed to be falsifiable. The term has specialized meanings when used with respect to specific fields, such as policy, scientific research, criminal investigations, and legal discourse.
The most immediate form of evidence available to an individual is the observations of that person's own senses. For example an observer wishing for evidence that the sky is blue need only look at the sky. However this same example illustrates some of the difficulties of evidence as well:
someone who was blue-yellow color blind, but did not know it, would have a very different perception of what color the sky was than someone who was not. Even simple sensory perceptions (qualia) ultimately are subjective; guaranteeing that the same information can be considered somehow true in an objective sense is the main challenge of establishing standards of evidence.
there is also the question of what is meant by 'blue', and how we measure it. (If determined by a particular wave-length of colour - then how do we actually measure this?
there is also the question of how evidence 'translates' e.g. is 'blau' in German universally translated as 'blue' in English: Germans may have different words for different parts of the spectrum; thus 'evidence' is a social construction.
Back to my own words, the German word blau can mean the color blue, but it can also mean that you are drunk, or sad, or that you are not going to work or school. This just from teh top of my mind. I prbably could find other meanings.
So your evidence, the bible which you read in English, could very well have been totally diluted by translations that are incorrect.
June 12, 2007 4:28 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 16:28
>Yoyo, *YOU* need to get yourself a thesaurus. Stop using this stupid phrase! (Please?)
For a religious person you sound mighty condescending, Mary. Where's the humility?
>Well, wiseclam, there is evidence.
Why get personal because someone doesn't share your beliefs? Calling him sarcastic names only reflects badly on you as a religious person.
>Jesus said he was God, performed many miracles, was crucified and rose from the dead after three days. Other Christian martyrs and saints have also performed thousands of miracles. Mostly they concern cures, but in 1917, 70,000 people at Fatima saw the sun dance in the sky. YOu may discount them, you may try to explain them, but you cannot say evidence doesn't exist.
Nothing that you have listed as "evidence" stands up to verification in the way real evidence must. It's like saying that there is evidence that Elvis is still alive because thousands of people have reported seeing him.
June 12, 2007 4:10 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 16:10
Tim - is this a prediction or an assertion? "Under Benedict people will return to the faith because obedience is rewarded and folks want more than milk. Most, if not all of the tragic sins will be stopped because under Benedict this will not tolerated."
If a prediction, why do you think so? and if an assertion, how do you know?
Thanks
June 12, 2007 4:09 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 16:09
W E N E E D E C L A T + "i" = LIFE Imortal! Less the "Sin" Fat! Ya Ya. Whoa!
June 12, 2007 4:03 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 16:03
Monsignor, the Pope's new book is a good read and I am trying to finish the last few pages. You honor your Pope by quoting from his book and in this case I believe that this is well deserved by this Pope. Though I am not a Catholic we are united in Christ. It is encouraging that your church is now being lead by a man who is true to the faith and does not try to be PC. Your church suffered under past poor leadership that was more interested in being liked. Your last Pope was adored by the world and the media and this should have been a warning sign. Under Benedict people will return to the faith because obedience is rewarded and folks want more than milk. Most, if not all of the tragic sins will be stopped because under Benedict this will not tolerated. Leadership makes all the difference and as an outsider looking in -- so far so good.
June 12, 2007 3:51 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 15:51
Getting back to God making the sun dance in 1917. I guess it could have been a lot worse. He could have sent a tidal wave or an earthquake.
But if something bad like that had happened, I bet God wouldn’t have gotten any credit for it. He only gets credit for the good stuff, like if just a few people avoid getting drowned or swallowed by the earth. Of course, he also gets credit for the fanciful but inconsequential stuff, like making the sun dance or showing his face on a tortilla or shedding a tear through the eye of a religious statue. You can discount it, but you can’t deny the evidence.
This many not make much sense, until you accept that God works in mysterious ways.
June 12, 2007 3:44 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 15:44
"It cannot be too often repeated, that truth scorns the assistance of miracle."
-Robert Ingersoll-
June 12, 2007 3:37 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 15:37
Ah the proof of the Bible lies here before us, Were we Christians not told byGod though the Apostle Paul that the natural man can neither understand nor accept spiritual things for they are foolishness to him.
One other thing Bretheren, even should a natural man enter into heaven within days he would be begging for the comforts of Hell because the rationale under which heaven operates would be so utterly alien to his mind that he simply culdn't stand it.
June 12, 2007 3:34 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 15:34
Mr. Mark I'm a Catholic and I agree with you that humans have to save the world! That's what it means to do good work. Those who do good work for merit are not sincere! And I agree Luke, Militant anything has to go! Where all people and we all have our own opinions! I'm thankful that we live in a country that allows us to disagree on faith.
June 12, 2007 3:30 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 15:30
We need Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. They have just as much power to "save the world" as any imaginary god.
No, it is we humans who must save the world. Bronze Aged myths and beliefs in non-existant supernatural beings have no power to change a damn thing.
June 12, 2007 3:15 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 15:15
I see the point of how someone from a non-Christian belief would be angered if someone told them that they were absolutely wrong and they were burning in hell for it. I mean, do you think it would be a little irritating? How is that being militant?
June 12, 2007 3:06 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 15:06
I think either way, we can see these folks saying, 'Any good that's done is cause of our God,' and anything good not done in the name of our religion 'doesn't count' when these Catholic guys claim to be better than everyone else.
June 12, 2007 2:51 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 14:51
Mary Cunningham
Hi Mary. Sorry my comments angered you.
It's actually the first time I have used an "outside the box" arguement to try to convey how I see religion and the god idea in relation to reality.
I thought it worked rather well.
Just like you,perhaps,I try to find new and fresh ways to express my ideas...and for me the box thing was a new way.I like it.
Of course the real issue behind your anger is the fact that I don't see the world as you do.
Have you ever wondered really...whether m