Caryle Murphy: How do you feel about the United States refusing to give you a visa?

Tariq Ramadan: My feeling is really it has to do with a specific administration not willing to engage in debates and critical discussions. Because for years I have been visiting the States, talking to people. I made my statements clear. I even went to speak at the State Department and all the people knew exactly…what I was saying, that I was critical towards the American policy in the Middle East: The unilateral support of Israel or the war in Iraq, which in my view was wrong and illegal….
And it was clear that I have nothing to do with terrorism or radicalization…And at the end of the two years to get the answer that I gave money for an organization one year before this organization was to be blacklisted in the States, it’s just…

Caryle Murphy: Is it accurate that the American authorities found out about this donation because you told them?

Tariq Ramadan: Yes, of course. They asked about donations and I gave them 11 organizations to which I was donating…So I told them myself.

Caryle Murphy: You said that Americans who’ve contacted you say that they believe that something is going wrong in the United States. Could you elaborate on what the Americans talking to you think is going wrong?

Tariq Ramadan: …Mainly what the people are saying is that the policies promoted by this [U.S.] administration is built on mainly fears, security and against freedom of speech and against the basic rights of American citizens. And really what I got as reaction is people saying “I’m ashamed. I’m very sorry that my country is doing this to you. But you have to know that this is not against you only. It’s the whole politics, the whole policies that we have now and we all feel that we are losing our basic rights.”

Caryle Murphy: Our new online religion feature “On Faith” is dedicated to the proposition that in this age of religious extremism, there is still room for civil, respectful dialogue. Do you feel that religious tolerance is taking a beating in recent years?

Tariq Ramadan: Yes, I think for two reasons. At the global level I think that we are now dealing with this war on terror and security policies. So with these new policies it becomes quite difficult to have an in-depth discussion around religious issues…

The second [factor]is really because of this globalized world and very quick media coverage….when you say something there is immediate reaction so there is no way here to have and it’s very difficult to have critical and necessary debates that we need today….
And this is what I am saying to the Muslims: “Look, when you are in the West or when you are dealing with Westerners or when you are living as a Western Muslim, you have to take an intellectual critical distance from what the people are saying. Because they are dealing daily now with security threats, and fears, and at the same time discourses and speeches on Islam that are nurturing these fears.

So when you have…legitimate fears, to these legitimate fears you have to respond. And you have to come with an articulate discourse promoting better understanding, better knowledge of your religion and it means also to be self-critical, self-critical meaning by that, ‘Yes your religion is great but not all the Muslims are great.’ So you have to say something about violence, say something about discrimination towards women. But not as suspected people, but as people understanding the legitimate fears of your fellow citizens. Because they are asking questions and they are not all alienated or playing a political game…”

Sometimes the problem we have with Muslims is that they are reacting emotionally to politicians forgetting that they are alienating their fellow citizens….

When you don’t have social policies…dealing with social justice or global justice, the best [way] to attract voters is to nurture fears. And build on…’us versus them,’ which was quite the American policy during the last five years: You are with us or against us…

This kind of polarization of the discourse which was in fact what we heard from…the current US administration… In this climate it’s difficult to have a debate…It’s emotions much more than rational discussions. And as I said it’s really important for the Muslims…to understand this picture and to say look we have to stop overreacting and we have to answer the questions which are put to us…not as suspected people but as responsible citizens….

Liz Heron: To change tacks a little bit, what do you make of the new generation of Muslims in America that are younger, and more conservative than their parents, who may have been immigrants?

Tariq Ramadan: I think that it’s a normal trend. You know, you had the first generation coming, settling, and maybe just trying to find the way to work. And then you have a second generation and …because they know this society, they aren’t perceiving this society as threatening their religious identity or their values. So they are nurturing and promoting something which is much more protective and conservative…

I think that we need two or three generations to get the right balanced approach. But I think with time, you will get the right answer: for someone to be able to say, ‘Look, I’m a practicing Muslim, and I can be a practicing Muslim and at the same time fully American by culture.’ And I think that this will be the future.

Liz Heron: So do you see them as moving away from assimilation, in contrast to their parents?

Tariq Ramadan: It depends. I don’t think their parents were just accepting assimilation. And I think that if assimilation means to be less Muslim in order to be more American, I don’t think it’s going to work.

But if to be an American Muslim … means that you can be both at the same time, and that you can preserve your values and at the same time be part of the American culture, the social fabric, I think that this is going to happen…

I really think that for now and for the future, it’s important for the Americans, for what we call the indigenous Americans – but in fact, you are all immigrants … to acknowledge the fact that their American society is changing with American citizens being Muslims… They can build a new identity, multiple identities… This is the future of your country – as it is the future of the European countries, the Western countries as a whole.

Liz Heron: Well how exactly would you suggest one live by the Koran in today’s world?

Tariq Ramadan: …You can be a religious man or woman, you can be a practicing Christian, Jew or Muslim, and you can be an atheist, for example. At the end of the day, what you are asking yourself--and what you are asking from yourself--is consistency…You have values, you have principles. Try in your daily life to be consistent.

And it’s not something which is specific to Muslims. If only we were to come to this understanding that at the end of the day, it’s not easy to be consistent, whatever are your convictions…The more you are consistent with your values, the more you are close to him, to the creator. So this is to be a good Muslim.

And this is why I don’t only promote, for example, citizenship. This is good, citizenship is central. But an ethics of citizenship is much more important. It’s just to put your citizenship in motion while you are aware that there are values that you want to respect – not only rights that you want to get, but also responsibilities that you are trying to meet out of your behavior.

Caryle Murphy: Tariq, thank you so much for spending this time with us.

Ends