All Comments (713)

nyugmhilw imutwpn taoek fcmjsex htqef jhmy sbeldhyjo

nyugmhilw imutwpn taoek fcmjsex htqef jhmy sbeldhyjo

nyugmhilw imutwpn taoek fcmjsex htqef jhmy sbeldhyjo

ihublm uvlpwy face ghrtql bruw hqgelizpx amsfuwpjg

ihublm uvlpwy face ghrtql bruw hqgelizpx amsfuwpjg

Mr Mark,

Yes, as you say, according to the account, in his anger, he physically threw down the tablets and broke them...physically.

If I have a copy of a law of the land in my hand and accidentally burn it, is that law now of no effect?

I guess Im unclear what your point is.

DCW wrote:

"do you personally believe that a man named Moses received those 10 commandments tablets that you stated 'he broke' (or something along that line)?"

Surely, you know from your OT studies that Moses came down from Mt Sinai, saw Israel worshipping idols and threw the two tablets containing the original 10 Commandments at the altar, breaking them?

Here it is in Exodus:

32:19 "And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount."

DCW – I appreciate your response and I see it as making excuses for God. I see such excuses whenever anything bad and/or inexplicable happens, in other words, frequently. The kind of things I hear, often from clergy, is that God can’t stop the bad things (e.g., mass murders, natural disasters, horrible illnesses) from happening, but he is there afterwards weeping with us and comforting us and warmly welcoming the dead into heaven (assuming they deserved it). Of course, when something good happens, God gets all the credit.

It simply doesn’t add up – and that of course is considered as “God working in mysterious ways” – yet another excuse for God. So much simpler to just acknowledge that there isn’t a divine being pulling any strings.

Dear DCW -

Thanks for keeping it civil.

You asked:

"If I may ask...Im curious if you believe the ark of the covenant actually/still existed/exists? Also, do you personally believe that a man named Moses received those 10 commandments tablets that you stated 'he broke' (or something along that line)? I guess my real question is, if you personally deem it all a myth, what is the difference to you wether it was the original 10 or some mixture of commandment and ordinance that you have personally read about?"

Oh, I consider it all to be myth, including the figure of Moses who Jewish scholars now agree wasn't a real person but an archetype. So, there were no commandments, no Ark, nothing. Just an old myth that doesn't stand up to its own internal scrutiny.

Why does it matter if it's all a myth? Simple - because a large number of people believe that the myths are historic fact and they are trying to foist their myth-based religious beliefs onto the lives of me and my family. Even your suggestion that we all just follow the 10 Commandments is hardly benign. If you would all just keep it to yourselves, that would be fine. But you can't or won't keep it to yourselves, so I see no reason to keep my systematic dismantling of your myths to myself. It's self defense, if nothing else.

What's good for the goose, as they say.

Thanks again for the civil chat...and my apologies if my posts sometimes lack that nth degree of civility.

DCW,

God is a proxy idea created by man (in this sense god "exists") for all the enigmatic social, familial, tribal, national, natural, cosmic, biographical, and historical phenomena and events for which there is no for the moment exhaustive explanation at hand. It could be argued that god is (and in its thousands of forms always has been) the desperate substitute for missing insight. In this sense "religion" and "reason" are related - reciprocally.

But then, the seduction of power coming with this proxy was an obstacle to even perceive the changes of knowledge of all these phenomena. Thus, creationism is still extant, even if a 10 year old child can easily debunk it today, provided he/she hasn't been perverted into magical Santa thinking from the start of its life.

Theological arguments from "within" this system are meaningless as to the validity of the system (Goedel). Therefore bible quotations mean exactly nothing as to the "truth" of the bible or its derivatives.

Like my fellow atheists on this thread, I remember my childish efforts (induced by "educators") to convince myself that black is white.

Black is black, and white is white (for our perception), what a liberating insight!

If god existed outside someone's mind, how come there never was any atheist punished for not believing in this entity? Even Canyon Shearer (aka Spiderman2?), who has already sent me to hell a couple of times, postpones this "punishment" to a time uncontrollable even for him, lol!

E Favorite,

A very good question. One Im sure no one has a full answer too.

I personally look at it this way. In believing scripture to be the inspired word of God, I believe that mankind made a decision in Eden..in short, to choose right and wrong, good and evil for himself (from the symbolic tree...remember, there were 2 trees...another discussion, another time). Hence the chronology of the miseries mankind has brought upon himself to this very day. But not to leave out some of the good that mankind does, which I believe is the true spirit of God imparted to us individually.

So why would God allow that? Well, first, He made us free moral agents, right? Not yellow pencils. He has a plan and a purpose, and the believer knows He can bring back life that has been taken away, as He will in each of the ressurections that not many talk about. Usually, you hear about going to heaven. Thats not what scripture says. But thats another story. I dont think many could deny that we have wanted to do things our way from the get-go. With regard to the 'yellow pencils', we as parents really overall do the same for our kids. Sometimes, in some cases, they have to learn things for themselves...otherwise they would not turn to a right way of doing things, especially if it is hammered into them by an authority over them.

I personally believe in a creator God and that God is a good God. And that He has a purpose that just might not fully be understood at this time.

Mr. Mark,

I had sensed that the word anger may not apply or seem too terse...perhaps, more so, cynical toward those who are believers?

In reality, there is nothing much to discuss. There are actually more sources that refer to the original 10 being in the ark of the covenant, and less that ascribe to what you present.

Since you offer no sources, and I offer no sources..then we could probably agree that there are many sources...scores, if not thousands.

If I may ask...Im curious if you believe the ark of the covenant actually/still existed/exists? Also, do you personally believe that a man named Moses received those 10 commandments tablets that you stated 'he broke' (or something along that line)? I guess my real question is, if you personally deem it all a myth, what is the difference to you wether it was the original 10 or some mixture of commandment and ordinance that you have personally read about?

Please. My curiousity is not intended to belittle or opine or be adverse to your beliefs and views. I must say, though, that I am intrigued by it and no disrespect intended or thought.

But, for the record, if I may say, I personally have become less angry along my road of Christianity.

Again, I wish you well.

DCW: You say “…but I believe the masses, as a whole, have misunderstood God, the bible and the stories within.”

Why do you suppose an omniscient, omnipotent God would allow his people to misunderstand him for two thousand years – the very people he created, the people whom he loves and to whom he offers eternal life (under certain conditions)?

I don’t really expect you to have an answer to this, but I would like you to think about it.

Dear DCW -

If I had a dollar for every time a religionist opined that I was "angry," I could quit my day job.

IIRC, I was a much angrier person when I was a Xian. How about that?

No, I think what you perceive as anger is simply a reaction that YOU are having to having your off-limits-for-polite-discussion beliefs in age-old superstitions challenged in a forthright manner. Well, better get used to it. The world has finally realizing that religious myths are being chucked by thinking, feeling people on a grand scale. The challenges to the politics and myths of religion will grow stronger, not weaker in the future.

It may be a bumpy ride, so buckle up!

BTW - you still haven't addressed the issue of the different versions of the 10 Commandments, at least, you haven't addressed it directly or to any degree of what one could consider a good-faith effort. I'll assume you aren't going to bother.

E Favorite,

I can appreciate your comments on Sunday school, indoctrination, etc. I used to, myself, go to church on Sunday, went to Sunday school, the whole 9 yards. But there was always something missing. Always something never explained or discussed.

But that all passed when I first looked at scripture as it is..a chronology of mankind and the problems we brought upon ourselves. And then, I found within those chronologies, the answers that those in scripture could have gone by and thereby avoided the misery they brought upon themselves.

It is of course my own opinion, but I belive the masses, as a whole, have misunderstood God, the bible and the stories within. One God, yet so many religions. I feel that is mans fault, not God's. Could it be people percieve Him as a 'hands off' God because thats really the way we want Him to be..even since the decision in the Garden of Eden, the symbolic tree, that man took of to determine right and wrong, good and evil for himself? I personally believe we are in the midst of a lesson to be learned that stems from those very decisions made by those who preceeded us and we just havent got the basic understanding of it all down yet.

I guess some may think I am rambling again. Just personal thoughts. I wish you well also.

DCW, you said” I do not believe that believers in God are ignorant, duped, sad souls who cling to something that others think of as a fairy tale.”

Speaking for myself, having been a believer until just a couple of years ago, I can say I was certainly not sad when I was a believer. I was, however duped and ignorant – I just didn’t know it until I started my own study – something I’d never done before. Like many Christians, I learned about my religion in Sunday school. In other words, I was indoctrinated (duped and kept ignorant), not educated. Once I became educated, the beliefs easily slipped away. There wasn’t any reason to keep believing.

Mr Mark,

It seems that you are a somewhat angry person when it comes to God and/or the bible. It is not my intention to point fingers, so if I am wrong, my apologies. Also, if my comments have been or seemed lengthy to you, my apologies also. I guess I am not sure when a fellow commentor gains the authority to comment on another's entry being too long, verbose or the like, or what purpose it intends to bring across.

In my view, it seems that so many thru the centuries have found a guide and truth to live by through scriptures. And this fact keeps going. I believe there is a sound reason for this. I do not believe that believers in God are ignorant, duped, sad souls who cling to something that others think of as a fairy tale. I personally believe the real fairy tale is in how we hide ourselves sometimes from the evils in this life and hope they go away. It is my sincere belief that they will in fact go away...just perhaps, maybe, in a different way than you might think.

Nevertheless, I wish you no ill will...that was not my intent in commenting. All the best to you.

Dear DCW -

Sorry, but the Bible itself - most especially in the original Hebrew and Greek - puts the lie to your last statement.

But, not to worry. There's always room for another head in the sand at the Biblical ostrich farm.

True scholars of the bible and its history are well aware that scripture does not contradict itself...rather, there is full harmony in scripture, especially with the original Hebrew and Greek. The KJV translators introduced error into the canonized set. You cannot have a complete study through one book. Commentaries, lexicons, etc. must be involved in putting it all together.

Several things which Mr. Mark mentions as 'different commandments' are nothing but ordinances. Commandments and ordinances are/were not the same. So there is fallacy in that type of reasoning. Scripture states the Word (who became Chirst) is the same yesterday, today and forever. Gods commandments are the same as you read in Ex. 20...the same as was told to Abraham....the same that were not done away with by Jesus. Just because the chronology of man via the bible cannot contain every single thing that happened is not a reason, nor a basis, to think the bible contradicts itself.

Dear Spidey -

Thanks for the last response.

Yes, I can see VERY CLEARLY how that explanation would suffice for someone with both a limited worldview AND an agenda biased towards accepting speculation and conjecture as sufficient answers, but the rules of logic are not so easily suspended in the search for knowledge and truth.

In short, you are jumping through hoops to make sense out of what cannot be made sense of. Black is white and up is down may work fine when disbelief is suspended and the bludgeon of faith provides one with a wild card to play whenever simple logic overwhelms the blatant ignorance of "divine" knowledge...but we all know that. The atheists among us just don't accept it as a truism while - apparently - you do.

I think I'm done here.

See you in another thread.

The Reality of it All!!!!

Until the koran is deflawed, no one is safe!!!!!

And the "fems" of Islam aka the flaws, errors, muck and stench of Islam:

1. Belief in "pretty/ugly wingie thingies".

2. Belief that an hallucinating, illiterate Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the hot "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words and resultant laws now listed in the koran.

3 That Shiites are less than human or Sunnis are less than human depending on what Islamic cult you belong to. (The Jihadist and the "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia will verify this!!!)

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7, 800 year-old blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites gives significant credence that greed, hate, suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran. Having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of rape, adultery, lust and polygamy. The condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of hatred, anger and greed.

Mr. Mark,

I hope this answers questions why many in the old testament (including some in the ten commandments) should not be taken literally and not to be read by unbelievers of Christ. That includes all the false religions and atheists. They should not quote the scripture coz they are NOT QUALIFIED to interpret it. It's been a problem since the time of Apostle Paul and here is the reason:

"And till Moses had done speaking with them, he put a VEIL on his face. "(Exodus 34:33)

" Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14 But THEIR MINDS WERE BLINDED: for until this day remaineth the same VEIL UNTAKEN AWAY IN THE READING OF THE OLD TESTAMENT; which veil is done away in Christ. 15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. 16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away. " (2 Corinthians 3:12-16)

CCNL,
I didn't say there wan't tension and disagreements between Sunnis and Shia. I was noting that in some countries the two live side by side in relative peace as protestant and catholics do here in the USA, unlike Northern Ireland. One place they used to live side by side in peace was in pre-invasion Iraq. Lebanon is an ideal example of this, where they live side by side but a single leader can create distrust followed by hostility between the religions. If you think this is only happening from one religion I again point to northern ireland. I could also bring up the centuries long tension between christians and jews in Europe, and christians and muslims in the middle east that has lasted millenia

Religious tension has been used to prevent a stable government from forming in Iraq. You could probably forment distrust among any two groups that live peacefully together with the right amount of suspicion raised from targeted killings. Turkey is 75% Sunni and 20% Shia yet there is no conflict there. Saudi Arabia has about the same demographics and no conflict. And Hamas is made up of Sunni Palestinians, the same people who make up a sizable chunk of Jordan, a peaceful nation.

Religion alone does not make people into killers. Culture and circumstance do, and religion to some extent, but not the extent you seem to be describing. Religion, all religions, help forment an "us versus them" mentality even among people of the same culture and nationality. All you need is the right amount of stress with a pinch of reason to distrust the other, whether real or imagined. Distrust of other religions is a part of every religion and is one of the reasons I stay out of the whole mess and prefer to live in the real world and think for myself.

Daniel IHLD, you ask, “…do you think most people are best friends with the pastor or priest that married them, or baptized their children? I would say, for most people, this person would be a very minor, if not almost completely invisible character.”

Good question – I’d like to see a survey done on that – before the general election.

I bet a lot of people remember such a person fondly, but very few actually stay actively in touch unless they’re all still in the same church.

You also ask “So, why do we judge Obama by a standard that is so different than most everyone lives by?”

There was an interesting article in yesterday’s Washington Post about this. Here’s an excerpt:

“Obama may find it especially hard to shake the associations that white voters have formed between him and Wright because both men are black. Social psychologist David Hamilton at the University of California said this is because of a phenomenon known as the "outgroup homogeneity effect" -- on average, people tend to feel that those from other ethnic, cultural and political groups are quite similar to one another, whereas they know that people from their own groups are quite varied.

To break the mental associations that white voters have between him and Wright, in other words, Obama will probably have to work much harder than if politician and preacher were also white.

This also explains why black voters seem to have little trouble distinguishing Obama's views from Wright's views -- people rarely have trouble seeing that people from their own groups can have a wide range of views.”

Read the whole thing - The Candidate, the Preacher and the Unconscious Mind, By Shanker Vedantam, Monday, May 5, 2008.

I can't list the link - it causes my post to be held.

CCNL:

Unless you are on your way back to the polar regions sans laptop, you can read this. Please give some thought to the idea that your agenda is not the only allowable focus.

Others would like to discuss atheism, poetry, Wright/Obama, OT/NT, etc. (Some people enjoy being New Age Christians, others Muslim, etc. Last I heard, that was okay in the US--don't know about Anarctic policies on religion and atheism, poetry, Wright, etc.)

Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, they call them here.

Peace on earth. Let he who is without sin...

Last post on this and until later: Times archives, internet, State Department.

One very famous source: Ali Bhutto's direct accusations of threat by Kissinger in his book, which Kissinger never denied.

Also, I really do like the idea of Peace on earth....

I don't know if this is part of the thirty per cent (!), but I do know that the part about throwing stones is not.

Don't care, doesn't matter. Good ideas. New Age Christians are among the rest of us, so they, too, can benefit from them.

CCNL:

Do you have any idea what you're talking about? Do you understand that it was Shah who paved the way for the lunacy that followed? Hello! Guess where I am from?

Do you know who Patrice Lumumba was? The havoc wrought by Joseph Kasavooboo? Guatemala? Allende. That gentle man, and, instead the mass murderer, Pinochet?

Do you live in a cave? Papa Doc Duvalier and Duvalier's son?

Did you just arrive in this country from the Anartic? Zia? ZIA?

If you have just come from the Polar regions, don't they have the internet there? Is the Times never accessible?

Do you even know whom I'm talking about? Who these figures were/are? Have you heard of 9/11?

My apologies to the rest of the blog members for again being way off-topic.

Farnaz, Farnaz, Farnaz,

Hmmm, a lot of conjecture on your part. References please!!!

No doubt our foreign relations, diplomacy and support of dictators were in hindsite not the best, but the Cold War required moves sometimes unsavorory and undemocratic. Thankfully we won the Cold War and God Bless the US citizen and taxpayer!! Without their blood and support, we would be bowing to the terror of the Rising Sun and the Swastika or the Red Hammer and Sickle. Or did you have some desire to serve these tyrants? Or do you think the world would be a better place with these crazies in control??

Spidey,

quotations from the bible prove nothing but their sheer existence.

There is a flat earth society. To prove that the earth is flat, just quote from the leaflets of the flat earth society.

Gerry,

Also, Fromm, a social scientist did not use the word "technology" (my anachronism). He wrote of science.

I'm not opposed to science, only the naivete that it proceeds ahistorically, with disinterest.

How could I oppose science? (Well, I suppose I could, but I don't.)

Some of its uses, what gets funded, etc., they are another matter.

I'm about as far from being a "religionist" as one can get. At least, I think so.

Gerry,

I'm not sure where we disagree....

Farnaz

Farnaz,

yes, I have read your comment to my post, thank you.

Religious doctrine = eternal, unchangeable "truth". (Intellectual status quo: 3000-2000 years ago, "infallibility", ha!).

Political doctrine = a set of ephemeral principles, for transitory political gain (Monroe, "prophylactic war" etc.).

Scientific "doctrine"? Never heard of one, since it would be an oxymoron, but if we substitute "theory" for doctrine, it amounts to the falsifiable knowledge attainable at the moment by the collective of unbiased, intelligent, honest minds, waiting to be corrected and expanded by further research. Not to be confused with technology!

Even scientific "doctrine" can be misused, but throwing sand into peoples' eyes is not science. Worst example: ID.

The Shah (US darling), Patrice Lumumba (assassinated)--in his place Kasavoboo--Guatemala--God help those people.

All on the web.

Peace on earth....

CCNL:

Then one thinks of Salvador Allende. CIA complicity was reported in the Times, not too long after the assassination. I found it a few years ago, in the process of doing research. The CIA admitted it.

And whom did we replace him with? Pinochet.

Enough. The list is too long, and I'm getting distracted.

Peace on earth....

CCNL:

Another thought: He was warned to stop socialist reform. By whom?

Moving on: We knew about Zia, the Saudis, and the Mudrassahs. I knew, and I am not from Pakistan. Many Americans knew. The government knew. No Question. It was always US policy to support dictators out of fear of Communism. Bhutto was no saint, but he did want rational economic change.

Who supports Mubarak, the House of Saud, etc.?

CCNL, CCNL, CCNL,

There is no dispute. Check with the State Department. We supported Zia. We agitated to have Ali Bhutto tried and deposed. He was threatened by Kissinger. In one of the most absurd "trials" he was convicted and executed.

Bhutto was controversial in many ways, but it was his plan to implement socialist reform that scared the US government. No saint. Next we move on to our guy, Zia. The word Madrassa is now common in English. Zia was in bed with the Saudis, our Dear, Dear friends, who started Mudrassas in Pakistan.

So...when you ask about who did what...

Someone said, "Peace on earth. Good will toward men." (women, children, animals, the earth, sky, universe)

Good thinking.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, be it he who is an atheist, new age Christian, etc.

Farnaz, Farnaz, Farnz,

We are way off the topic but:

"Fate" noted that the Shiite-Sunni conflict was isolated to Iraq. This however is not the case as noted in my counter comments to him.

And you have proof that the USA was responsible for the assassination of Bhutto's father?

With repect to our current war on terror and aggression :

An update (or how we are spending or have spent USA taxpayers’ money to eliminate global terror and aggression)

A Partial and Rather Recent Body/Terror Count:

1) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto

2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, 4056 US troops and 83,221 – 90,782 Iraqi civilians iraqbodycount.org/

4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.

5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

8) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

Elements of our War on Terror and Aggression:

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

2. Iran is being been contained. (besides containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

3. Libya has become almost civil. Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they recently threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!!(or is he??)

4. North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. With the opening up of rail traffic between North and South Korea after 50 years and with the assistance of the US Navy in retrieving NK ships and personnel, a fresh sense of civility is afoot. One of the most eminent US cultural institutions, the New York Philharmonic Orchestra, has performed a landmark concert in North Korea.

The concert included music by Western composers and a Korean folk song, and was broadcast live on local television.

Unfortunately, North Korea’s apparent move toward peace did not last long as they fired test missiles last week and threatened South Korea with military action this week. Selling atomic bomb secrets to Syria as revealed recently is very disturbing.

5. Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

6. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords and the Annapolis Peace Conference is at least somewhat successful.

7. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

8. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghahistan and Pakistan.

9. Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

10. Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

11. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

12. Islamic Afghanistan, Sudan, Darfur and Somalia are still terror hot spots.

13. The terror and torture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo, and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends.

14. And of course the bloody terror and aggression of the Japanese, Nazis and Communists were with great difficulty eliminated by the good guys.

DC Native:

I agree with you. Also, African Americans may be Muslim, Christian, Jewish, etc.

An excellent piece up until the following quote:

"As an atheist, I would also like to point out that all of the pontificating from white pundits about the role of religion in the black community ignores the fact that religion was also, at one time, used by blacks to keep other blacks subservient and to placate white supremacists"

Not only does this statement not fit with the rest of your piece, it kinda makes YOU sound Wright-ish in a way. Stretching out unsupported anecdotes to make broad, outlandish generalizations about a certain group of people...sounds familiar.

Anyway, so let me give it a try. I suspect you really don't know "jack" about black folks. Most white folks don't, nor do they really care to. Which sets the stage for someone like Rev. Wright. Like a good narcissist, he knew exactly what he was doing. He could've told the people that black folks have 12 toes, and half the country would've believed it. After 400 years, we remain a mystery in plain sight, in our own county. Damn.

ARMINIUS writes:
"Mr Mark,

That's very fascinating about the two sets of commandments. Since I spend little time in the OT, I was not aware of it."

No problem. Glad to be of service.

I think I speak for all of the atheists on this blog when I say that we feel it is our moral responsibility to educate the faithful in the content of their holy books. It's just a bit daunting to realize how MUCH there is that remains hidden from even the most-rabid of believers...and that's before logic and rationality raise their ugly heads! ;)

WHICH GROUP ASSASSINATED HER FATHER, ZULIFAKAR ALI BHUTTO?

Hint: Look up at the flag, the US flag.

BONUS QUESTIONS: WHY? AND WHAT WERE THE CONSEQUENCES OF THE MURDER FOR PAKISTAN?

Goodnight.

Catch you later, Siderman, I hope--Farnaz

"Which group assassinated Bhutto?

Hmmm. Hard to answer directly, CCNL. SHE DID NOT WANT TO GO. SHE KNEW HER LIFE WOULD BE IN DANGER, FEARED SHE WOULD BE KILLED. Here you are in territory I know quite well. Which group put pressure on her to return, after having thrown its support behind the dictator that ultimately destablized the country?

AND closer to home: Which group assassinated JFK? MLK? RFK? Attempted to assassinate Ronald Regan?

Blew up the Federal Building?

This is silly. Let he who is without blame....

Benazir, who was hardly without faults, was a symbol of hope for many, many people. She should have been left alone, repeatedly asked to be.

I guess I forgot to say that I was speaking to Spiderman.

Also, I noticed that I had comment number 666 and that my name is Daniel, and the my name here is Daniel in the Lion's Den.

I wonder what kind of magical spells Spiderman, and others who post here, might read into that?

And also, E-Favorite:

You are right; people do not have spiritual advisors or consultants; even very relgious people in America do not have any such relationships; I do not, and nobody that I know does. I know alot of people who WOULD LIKE to be everyone else's spiritual advisor, but mostly the objects of their concern keep a safe distance.

I would like to ask, do you think most people are best friends with the pastor or preist that married them, or baptized their children? I would say, for most people, this person would be a very minor, if not almost completely invisible character. So, why do we judge Obama by a standard that is so different than most everyone lives by?

I am hoping that most people will realize what a silly tempest the Obama / Wright thing is.

Fate,

You might want to "google" the Sunni Shiite conflict.

Some facts and questions to answer,

From CNN:

"Al-Sistani was apparently referring to Abdullah bin Jabrain, a key member of Saudi Arabia's clerical establishment, who last month joined a chorus of other senior figures from the hardline Wahhabi school of Sunni Islam that regards Shiites as infidels.

Bin Jabrain described Shiites as "the most vicious enemy of Muslims."

Iraq's civil war- Sunni minority, Shiite majority, 24/7 blood letting, 4000 American soldiers dead, 90,000 Iraqi civilians, dead.
Iran, Shiite theocracy, 24/7 support of global terror.

OBL, Sunni/"Wannabee"/Saudi madman and madmen, 24/7 support of global terror.

"The conflict in Lebanon has ignited a robust debate on jihadist Web sites over backing for Hezbollah, the Shiite group that set off the crisis when it seized two Israeli soldiers on July 12. The discussions reflect the widening divide between Shiite and Sunni Arabs in parts of the Middle East. Accusing Palestinians of being anti-Shiite, one Iraqi Shiite militant bitterly wrote, “It is better to concentrate one’s efforts on helping the Shiite kinfolk rather than the Sunnis.”

Fill in the answers below:

Hamas, Sunni or Shiite??

Fatah, Sunni or Shiite??

Pakistan, Sunni or Shiite? Which group assassinated Bhutto??

Malaysia, nearing a Sunni theocracy?

Bahrain, Sunni or Shiite???

Phillipines, Sunni or Shiite???

Taliban, Sunni or Shiite???

Somalia, Sunni or Shiite???

Spiderman,

Just one other thing: There are talking snakes. I work with one.

Best,
Farnaz

You have quoted from the Bible, ad-nauseatingly. And then, when some of it is thrown back in your face, you say it is improper. What do you want? do you want people to listen to whay you say or not? ou do and you don't; you'r giving off a schizophrenic vibe. If you want respect, you are never going to get it if you do not extend any to others, and you do not. You are haughty, superior, snobby on this blog, and that is a Christian example that we should all follow?

Not me.

Hi Spiderman,

I guess what I'm saying is that your voice has changed quite a bit--syntax, diction, you name it.

I really do hope it's you. It's just that I liked the old Spiderman, too.

Farnaz

Spiderman

Your previous comments on evolution were, once again, incorrect. When you belittle settled science, and seek fraudulently to claim that there is a controversy where there is none, you tell us more about yourself and the mechanisms of your own mind, rather than about your apparent passion, about why evolution is wrong.

I think you are not grasping the difference between speculative philosophy on the one hand, and science, on the other hand. There is no real philosophy that defines science; it is merely the consensus of scientists on scientific endeavors and processes. Any one is free to disagree with scientific consensus, but that doesn't mean there is a controversy among the scientists whose consensus is, in fact, the definiton of scientific truth.

And I also think that you have given little thought to the nature of existence, subjective consciousness, our mental mechanisms that form belief and enable knowledge, and indeed, knowledge itself, and how we regard it, and how we know the things we know, and how different people, seemingly know things that are different.

You, are instead, quite, circumscribed and cloistered. Your interest seems to roam not far from the Book of Revelation and the idiom of that type of religion, with the armies of Good and Evil clashing over matters of sexual conduct and orientation, and things like that.

I don't want to be talking about the ten commandments. Christ himself just summarized all the commandments into just two.

What I'm trying to say is that atheists don't understand the Bible and it's not proper that you guys be quoting the scriptures.

If you think there is something "wrong" in the scriptures, it is because something very wrong is happening in your brains.

If some religion interpret it falsely, it is not because the Bible is false but because those same religions who interpret it falsely are FALSE RELIGIONS.

There are no talking snakes. Clearly it's a metaphor and if you guys insist that snakes talk or you sin if you eat a certain fruit, it is because ATHEISM AND IGNORANCE DON'T SEPARATE.

IGNORANCE, however it is called, be it atheism, cannot, and will not, forever understand the Word of God.

It's a Book for the wise. Stay away from it. Stick to evolution. It's the playground of fools.

Farnaz, it's me. Sorry if I don't quite understand what you're trying to convey.

Anonymous:

There may be other reasons, just for learning about religious texts, for instance, just to discover who the writers were, what their thinking was, how it is reflective of the times and places in which they lived, in what ways it is syncretic, etc.

Yes, there are accounts of the first humans, and as you probably know, feminists have made much of the differences between the two.

Farnaz

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated wrote: "Hmmm, the Sunni-Shiite conflict in Iraq is reprehensible so says the "Reality Challenged" and Obfuscating Jihadist. Then she flips it right away saying Catholics and Protestants would have at it if they were in the majority/minority in Iraq like that gives some rationale to this 800 year old blood feud in all of Islam not just Iraq. Give us a break!!! The conflict goes directly to the foundation of Islam."

Maybe, but you cannot ignore the blood fued in Northern Ireland now can you? Both Catholics and Protestants say the other cannot get into heaven. That's a pretty basic religious issue. And consider that Shiites and Sunnis live side by side in other Islamic nations just as protestants and catholics do here in the USA.

Anonymous,

There are indeed two creations stories in Genesis, but only the second stars Adam and Eve.

Arminius

Farnaz:

You mention inconsistencies. There are quite a number. The two Adam and Eve stories just for starters. There are inconsistencies in the OT and the NT.

People seem to be polarized in their motives for discovering them. One bunch wants to show its all fiction. One bunch wants to prove it's all true. Another bunch doesn't care since factuality doesnt interest them. Another bunch doesn't care because they are atheists and may/or may not be interested in the teachings.

Hi Arminius,

Yes, this is what I've been trying to say, why archaeological evidence, alone, affords little insight, that is, from a certain point of view.

Traditions were forming throughout the Tanakh. There was more than one E writer. The writer's were educators, it has been generally surmised. What manuscripts the different writers had access to is problematic. Then, too, there are hypotheses about differing ethical/moral perspectives.

Joshua is very interesting in this regard. Yes, we have hypothesized a set of writers, but unexcavated sites remain problematic.

Look at the inconsistencies.

There are also huge textual problems in the NT, but they are different. As for archaeological evidence, well....And then there are other unresolved NT questions.

Personally, I'm more interested in your inspired "We and We!" sacred words if ever there were such.

Regards,
Farnaz

Mr Mark,

That's very fascinating about the two sets of commandments. Since I spend little time in the OT, I was not aware of it. It is though there were two separate traditions that were merged. This would help to explain the appearance of two different creation myths in Genesis.

Arminius

Hi Spiderman,

Well, well, well....that is, if you are Spiderman.
Spiderman is a curious name to choose for a prejudiced Euro-American. A talented African American writer? Minister? A talented Euro-American Writer? Minister? Better if you do not tell us.

Does this mean that we have seen the last of the old Spiderman? I sincerely hope not. Sans the "stupid," etc., that is. The old Spiderman brings out some elitism most would do well to look at.

If you are not a writer now, Spiderman, I would like it if you would consider it as an avocation. A lot of very religious people created art. You have named one....

More later....

Farnaz

UNBIASED OBSERVER: wrote " Just use the brain evolution gave you. :) "

Evolve, Darwin, evolve. THAT'S THE MAGIC WORD OF ATHEISTS.

Is it possible to sto