All Comments (356)

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
SUSAN JACOBY
"POPE BENEDICT AND THE SOUL OF POWER “

IRT:
"The Catholic Church, historically and in the present, wants power not only over the souls of its faithful but also over others who do not share that faith."

ANS:
First, all men are endowed with certain inalienable rights as the Founding Fathers (F/F) noted. The Catholic Church is the guardian of these moral values. They are not imposed on the individual by the Church but by God.

Your statement is an absurdity. The Church wants no power except the power of administration of Her Church, and the right to defend her principles and teachings.

Her power is manifested in Her exposition of a consistent systematic interpretation or explanation of Truth.

Her perceived power is invested in Her positing of the eminent truths that all men seek from the longing of the natural innate propensity of the human soul in all men.

Her clergy are forbidden to participate in political office. Fr. Drinan, a US Congressman, was forced to leave Congress. She has condemned and shut down “Liberation Theology,” because politics is not part of Her mission. Her mission is the salvation of all souls.

Her mission is the well-being and salvation of mankind teaching the Truth that is inherent in the Scriptures and protected by God.

Namely, She succors to man's body and soul. She envision and implicates the Corporal Works of Mercy, and informs, ministers to man’s spiritual necessities to lead man to God, and to make known the incomprehensible rewards that await man in his final destiny.

IRT:
“That is why the American Catholic bishops have formed a strategic alliance with right-wing Protestant fundamentalists on so-called 'values issues'--by which they mean mainly matters of sexual behavior.

"This is a tricky business for the church hierarchy, because on many social issues--from immigration to poverty--the church's positions are much closer to those of liberal secularists than they are to the policies of the far religious right."

ANS:
Or, might one say, the positions of the secularist are closer to the Church's than what they think. There is no trick about stating the truth in defense of human life. That would be both intensely ridiculous and profound preposterousness.

Those "so-called values" are the defense of mankind especially the unborn against being legally murdered by abortion. Even Roe, in infamous Roe v. Wade, now denounces this scurrilous decision and says it was a farce.

Only 48 million have been exterminated since the Court’s opprobrious asinine decision was concluded. Those over 48 million are about the size of the population seven times the population of New York City. We have seen the cacophony, distress, fear, and anger that 9/11 stimulated; can you imagine what the protest would be if seven cities the size of NY City were destroyed? However, that's the number of unborn dead by abortion and it is being defended by the impervious ignominious.

The Court violated the Amendment process and wrote a law of immorality into the Constitution, violating the Separation of Powers. There is no inviolable right to immorality. Now, there is, according to the nefarious Court majority.

The Court trespassed on the NML, violating the Constitution that citizens are secured in their own person. The Court transgressed on man’s inviolable right, the "Right to Life."

To circumscribe the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution that “each citizen is secured in his own person,” the Court redefined “person,” and defiled the Natural Law by redefining the nature of humanity.

Blackmund incomprehensibly redefine the conceived as a “Thing-Becoming-Human” and defined the conceived as one third human and two thirds "thing" in the First Trimester of his Trimester Theory, astounding the whole of the Medical society by creating a new being that had never existed in medical history.

In the Second Trimester, the conceived became 2/3rds human and 1/3rd thing. At the end of Blackmund's Trimester Theory, a woman was never pregnant with a human being. There was no child until it completely escaped the birth canal of the mother. Hence, the Theory justified "partial birth abortion," the sucking out of the unborn's brains while it was being born.

That is the swill the Abortionists were willing to swallow, in order legally to have their unborn murder when their sexual propensities happened to get in the way and leave them pregnant.

Is it any wonder that the Pope would remonstrate to the Bishops to not put their faith under a bushel basket? No, they must let its truth shine out like a beacon from the top of the highest mountain, like a fire that can be seen from all distances, and that its truth may shower down on both the evil and the virtuous.

For, if the light of the faith of the people of God is not seen and heard, then how great will the silence and the darkness in the world be? Can we allow a public official not to know the difference of serving the people and killing the people.

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
SUSAN JACOBY
"POPE BENEDICT AND THE SOUL OF POWER “

IRT:
“Europeans are more secular today than Americans are. Secularism, ironically, is a positive word in Europe and is a dirty word only in the United States and Vatican City.

“…Benedict said…the church and its members must live out their faith by engagement in social issues...I have no problem with that--as long as the church…does not prevent me from living by my standards.

ANS:
First, the Church doesn’t prevent; it exhorts and remonstrates against transgressions against the Natural Moral Laws and the word of God.

The $64,000 question is what are your standards? Are they tenants of the Sexual Revolution and the Culture of Death? Are they the demeaning and detrimental rights for human depravation, as are the claimed rights to gay sex, the degradation of the family and marriage, live-ins, gay unions, abortion embryo stem cell experimentation, the principles of agnosticism and atheism, situation ethics, pragmatism, and moral relativism?

IRT:
“But Benedict also meant something else--that the Catholic Church in the United States will continue to try to impose its values on non-Catholics by attempting, for example, to outlaw abortion and embryonic stem cell research, as it once attempted (quite successfully) to outlaw birth control in many states.”

ANS:
The Natural Moral Law is not subjective, it is not relative, or subjugated by situation ethics. It is not governed by pragmatism, and is not subject to impulsive choices. To the contrary, it is universal, objective, and absolute because it comes from God, who is Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Prescience. Therefore, it is unchangeable.

Moreover, the NML is imbued in human nature, manifested in the conscience of man, and governs the proper behavior of all mankind.

The Pope is not forcing his values on you or anyone else. He’s defending the Natural Moral Law (NML), that are the values of our Creator. They are not the Pope’s whims, but God's values. They are the values that are ubiquitous, objective, universal and absolute because they come from God. Man has no choice to refuse them and not suffer the obvious consequences that ensue. One being over 48 million Americans alone dead by abortion.

The NML is embedded in the “Ten Commandment, given to man by God. It is the foundation of all Civil Laws. It is a necessity for all social order. To violate them is to violate human nature thereby disrupting the social order and corrupting it.

The NML encompasses the dictates of our inalienable rights that the Founding Fathers (FF) wrote in the Declaration of Independence (D/I), and the Bill of Rights (B/R). These rights are dictated by God and not man.

It is stated by the F/F that these rights are endowed by our Creator. Therefore, God and His Church has an important part in American politics and America's destiny. To deny a Creator is to deny the Constitution and your inalienable rights turning them over to the whims of man. They are defended by the Catholic Church and its Pontiff.

IRT:
“The most revealing aspect of Benedict's statement was his assertion that to " the extent that religion becomes a purely private matter, it loses its very soul." It would have been more honest for him to say, "To the extent that religion becomes a purely private matter, it loses its political power."

ANS:
As Aristotle noted as has the Church, that man is a social being, and is by his nature, inadvertently involved in the affairs of governing and being governed. Man depends on society to assist him in his eternal destiny.

As the D/I notes that man has certain inalienable rights that government has no jurisdiction over, namely man's right to "freedom of speech," "religion" and the "pursuit of happiness", a happiness Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics says is the final end and purpose of all human life.

The Catholic Church is the guardian of the NML. No other organization in the world defends the dignity of human life greater than the Catholic Church.

Moreover, the D/I states that when government consistently violates these rights, it is the duty of its citizens to overthrow that government and restore the rights that had been violated.

No nation that has consistently violated these rights can govern without being dictatorial, totalitarian, and tyrannical and eventually overthrown.

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
SUSAN JACOBY
"POPE BENEDICT AND THE SOUL OF POWER “

IRT:
“Americans' prejudice against "papists" in the first half of the 19th century was much stronger than anti-Semitism (a first in western history), and Catholicism could never have flourished if that prejudice had been bolstered by a state-established Protestant church.”

ANS:
Kind of funny, irrespective of the Constitution, how Baltimore, Florida, Louisiana, Texas, California, and all the South Western states were doing fine. St. Augustine, Corpus Christie, San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, San Diego, and San Bernardino aren’t names of agnostics. They’re Catholic because Catholics settled in these areas irrespective of the Constitution.

The purpose of the religious exodus from Europe was for freedom of religion and from State controlled religions.

The Constitution and the Founding Fathers (F/F) were never for the fictitious "wall of separation" that was created by witless Court. Every one of the 13 Original Colonies had reference to God in their constitutions and were based on our Judeo-Christian Heritage and its moral bases that recognized the dignity of man.

IRT:
"Indeed, the pope…undoubtedly understands that the repressive history of Catholicism at a time when it held sway over western Europe is one of the reasons why Europeans are more secular today than Americans. Secularism, ironically, is a positive word in Europe and is a dirty word only in the United States and Vatican."

ANS:
The Catholic Church has had its bad days but not because of it doctrines and teachings, but because of its heretical members. The Inquisitions were nearly all governed by the monarchies and many were formed in self-defense from religious fanatics, and dissenting Jews.

Because of the fall of man from Eden, man in his weakness, is subject to evil, and without the graces of the Church, man succumbs to the urges of his concupiscence.

Catholicity does not give you a free ticket to Heaven; it only promises you one if you adhered to her counsel by obeying and living Her teachings that are in accordance with God's laws.

The Crusades were in defense of Catholic settlements invaded by the Turks and Saracen barbarians. The Crusades had a legitimate purpose. Yes, a few Crusades got out hand, it was not due to the Pope or the Church's teachings.

The role of the Church in Europe during WWII, besides America, was the only blessing there was for the Jews. The Pope saved some 800,000 Jews during the tragic reign of Hitler.

Moreover, because of the Holy Pontiff, Poland, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia broke free of the Communist regime in the USSR.

Mother Theresa and her mission were power seeking; they were a mission of love for the dignity of the individual person, as is the Church.

In Calcutta, the dead and dying laid in the streets. A truck would come in the mornings to pick the bodies up and throw them in a garbage heap to be disposed of later.

Mother Theresa picked them up and preformed the Corporal Works of Mercy by feeding the hungry and giving the sick and dying comfort and dignity.

She never killed the unborn, she asked for a mother contemplating abortion to give her child to her that her mission may love and care for it. She was a hero in a Muslim world that despised Catholicism because, like you, they knew her or her Church not until they touched them with their love and mercy.

The Dream program in Africa is not an organization seeking power; it is a volunteer program that succors to the medical needs of HIV and the some 20,000 African AIDS victims wrought by the Culture of Death and the Sexual Revolution that are now infecting America.

Europe and the Middle East in the Third and Fourth Century were inhabited by pagan clans and barbarians that ruled by force. In many cases, clashes between the European populations were in self-defense against the hordes from the East.

Constantine the Great saved the Church against its pagan persecutors, and because of his sense of Catholicism, the dignity of women and children, once treated as cattle, was restored.

Unfortunately, Europe, has forgotten its legacy that Catholicity had given it, and now their loss of integrity is encapsulating America, whose culture is being morphed into the culture of Europe, a culture that is metastasizing America's moral underpinnings given to it by God, and written in the Constitution by the Founding Fathers.

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Arminius:

"References? I am unconvinced, and agree with Ryan Habar that the stuff CCNL pastes repeatedly is the stuff of historical theory. Anyway,history is not math or science, there is always a different opinion available. E.g. it is a fact that such-and-such a battle happened on a certain date, but what really went on there can be a matter of debate. As well as any significance of it. Or even who was there."

Ooh... that's not exactly what I said, but I think you agree with my gist. I said CCNL's stuff, from Crossan, is philosophical presupposition - not historical facts. A great deal of history can be known with reasonable verifiability and probity. Same with philosophy. They each have different methods. What I was getting at is that when Crossan, and CCNL, say something like, "Their was no resurrection, and I've proved it from the Scriptures," they are not making a historical claim. The Scriptures might not prove a resurrection, but they certainly claim it, and intended to claim it, and one cannot deduce from the claim that the claim is false. Crossan and CCNL make their case not from historical data (all available data, whether accurately or not, points toward a real resurrection) but from the philosophical presupposition, dogmatically held, that "Resurrection of the dead is impossible."

Do you see what I mean?

"There was no resurrection in AD 33 or ever," is an historical statement; "Resurrection is impossible," is a philosophical statement with a meaning that transcends any time or place in history, but applies to them all. Each requires evidence and rational argument. To base the first on the second, the second must be proved.

Neither CCNL nor Crossan has proved either statement - they've only quoted a bunch of likeminded scholars who've also only quoted each other. Their bibliographies are like circular houses of cards. It's an amazing scam, really.

Farnaz -

Googling Christian Kabbala will bring up a few interesting sites - the Wiki site discusses in paricular the Italian Rennaissance figure Pico della Mirandela as among the first to employ the Jewish Kaballah in a non-Jewish/Christian context. Other 15th century figures are also mentioned here, including the mad monk Savonarola, who was later burned at the stake. Pico was forced to retract his metaphysical musings and resultant theorums more than once by the Church.

He and Gallileo survived, where more stubbornly defiant figures such as Savonarola and Giordano Bruno did not....up in flames with Joan of Arc, poor girl.

While some have recently found Benedict to be more sympathetic to the contemplative (dare we say mystical) tradition within Christianity, I suspect his support is not without serious reservations - as a Cardinal he was reported to declare Buddhism as so much mental masturbation.
At least the Church has stopped burning mystics and contrary thinkers for being guilty of heretical practices.......

However, the more modern use of the Kaballah in The Order of the Golden Dawn and the Rosacrucion movement is somewhat different. You will also see the Yeats website, which discusses his involvement with Cabala and the Golden Dawn at some length.

Yeats was alleged to be enamored with Ezra Pound, and this no doubt led to his brief flirtation with fascism. Rather than a man of action, Yeats seemed to live a life of the mind almost exclusively - an elitist with sympathies for the common man.

On the other hand, members of the various occult-based groups of the day were all elitist in the extreme, so he was in good company.

More later .....

Whoops!

Meant

conservative side of his politics

Interesting. In the elegy I posted by Auden, a certain verse was deleted. Auden, himself, deleted three, but although he was much taken to task for what follows, to the best of my knowledge, he did not delete it. Auden greatly admired Yeats, supported Irish nationalism, but not the conservative side of Yeats's poetry, and most certainly not Yeats brief spell as a fascist. Even Frank O'Connor saw it asreprehensible. How could he not? Even as a Yeats idolator? After all, O'Connor spent time in prison.

Here is the missing verse.

Time that with this strange excuse
Pardoned Kipling and his views,
And will pardon Paul Claudel,
Pardons him for writing well.

Spiderman:

In the George Herbert poem, he is at heaven's gate and doesn't think himself worthy of entering.

Farnaz

Spiderman:

I listened to it. It is very beautiful! Thank you!

Goodnight,
Farnaz

Farnaz, check this site :

www.imeem.com/people/jlTdHkz/music/2ZDYI6eZ/king_david_a_song_of_ascents/

Hi Spiderman,

This one is for you. It's by George Herbert (Protestant). To answer your question about the 121st psalm, no, I didn't know it had been made into a song. Where might I find it?

Love(3)

"Love bade me welcome: yet my soul drew back,
Guilty of dust and sin.
But quick - eyed Love, observing me grow slack
From my first entrance in,
Drew nearer to me, sweetly questioning
If I lacked anything.

'A guest,' I answered, 'worthy to be here':
Love said, 'You shall be he.'
'I, the unkind, ungrateful? Ah, my dear,
I cannot look on thee.'
Love took my hand, and smiling did reply,
'Who made the eyes but I?'

'Truth, Lord, but I have marred them; let my shame
Go where it doth deserve.'
'And know you not,' says Love, 'who bore the blame?'
'My dear, then I will serve.'
'You must sit down,' says Love, 'and taste my meat.'
So I did sit and eat,"

In Memory of W. B. Yeats (1939)

I

He disappeared in the dead of winter:
The brooks were frozen, the airports almost deserted,
And snow disfigured the public statues;
The mercury sank in the mouth of the dying day.
5 What instruments we have agree
The day of his death was a dark cold day.
Far from his illness
The wolves ran on through the evergreen forests,
The peasant river was untempted by the fashionable quays;
10 By mourning tongues
The death of the poet was kept from his poems.

But for him it was his last afternoon as himself,
An afternoon of nurses and rumors;
The provinces of his body revolted,
15 The squares of his mind were empty,
Silence invaded the suburbs,
The current of his feeling failed; he became his admirers.

Now he is scattered among a hundred cities
And wholly given over to unfamiliar affections,
20 To find his happiness in another kind of wood
And be punished under a foreign code of conscience.

The words of a dead man
Are modified in the guts of the living.

But in the importance and noise of to-morrow
25 When the brokers are roaring like beasts on the floor of the Bourse,
And the poor have the sufferings to which they are fairly accustomed,
And each in the cell of himself is almost convinced of his freedom,
A few thousand will think of this day
As one thinks of a day when one did something slightly unusual.

30 What instruments we have agree
The day of his death was a dark cold day.

II

You were silly like us; your gift survived it all:
The parish of rich women, physical decay,
Yourself. Mad Ireland hurt you into poetry.
35 Now Ireland has her madness and her weather still,
For poetry makes nothing happen: it survives
In the valley of its making where executives
Would never want to tamper, flows on south
From ranches of isolation and the busy griefs,
40 Raw towns that we believe and die in; it survives,
A way of happening, a mouth.

III

Earth, receive an honored guest:
William Yeats is laid to rest.
Let the Irish vessel lie
45 Emptied of its poetry.

In the nightmare of the dark
All the dogs of Europe bark,
And the living nations wait,
Each sequestered in its hate;

50 Intellectual disgrace
Stares from every human face,
And the seas of pity lie
Locked and frozen in each eye.

Follow, poet, follow right
55 To the bottom of the night,
With your unconstraining voice
Still persuade us to rejoice;

With the farming of a verse
Make a vineyard of the curse,
60 Sing of human unsuccess
In a rapture of distress;

In the deserts of the heart
Let the healing fountain start,
In the prison of his days
65 Teach the free man how to praise.

Incidentally, have you seen Moshe Idel Kabbalah New Perspectives?

You know so much has been written about the automatic writing business. It drove a lot of his contemporaries quite to distraction--Auden had much to do to restrain himself, and didn't always succeed. (Have you read Auden'ts Elegy on Yeats, btw.? Took a jab at "Yeats' 'flirtation with fascism'" which Frank O'Connor, Yeats idolator that he was, did not find romantic.)

Such a gigantic and complex mind. How did his mythic imagination and spiritual desires work together? When did they split apart? How does the great artistic skill and need interweave with myth and esoterica?

Hi Perspective,

Thanks. Yes, I have the Scholem books, and a couple of others. I read the Vision. But this other book, I'm not sure, was it called the Christian Cabbala, or the Catholic Cabbala? Yeats, himself, makes reference to it in his prose writings (I'm using his spelling), but I'd have to go did through the shelves to find where.

Is it extant?

Also, can you explain to me what mosts interests you about Yeats' work and/or vision?

Of course, the two were always evolving, I know.

Farnaz

Farnaz -

I did see that your poem Byzantium was taken from The Tower, but I have not read it in it's entirety.

I have the Yeats Reader which is a compendium, and A Vision, which Yeats believed to be his most profound work in that he developed an elaborate system of metaphysics that emerged over 7 years from his wife's efforts at automatic writing - it might be worth a read.

He seems to have immersed himself in mystics and mysticism of all stripes, and even mentions terminology taken from the writings of Jacob Boehme, the Shoemaker - a German Protestant mystic of the 18th century (and a noted pantheist).

You are right in your observation that the mystical Qabalah of western hermeticism is a variation of the Jewish Kaballah, and was co-opted (discovered?) by both Christians and neo-pagans as a profound system of metaphysical truth that could be used as a practical guide to spiritual development.

Paracelsus may have been among the first to use the Kaballah as the basis for modern magical systems in the 16th century - although Pagan Hermeticism and Christian Gnosticism share common roots going back to the very early centuries of Christianity.

Gershom Scholem has written the definitive historical study of Kaballah and Jewish mysticism (as you most probably know) and in his book shows to some degree the cross- fertilization with Christianity that occurs in Europe in the 17th and 18th century.

Several of the early members of the (British based) Golden Dawn have written extensively on the use of the Qabalah and it's structure of the ten Sephiroth which the Tree of Life - and how each level is used in the system of Magick. Dion Fortune, Gareth Knight, Aleister Crowley and MacGregor Mathers were all members that wrote extensively about the structure, functions and application of the Qabalah in what they called the Work (of self-transformation).

Another tangent is the use of the Tarot in this system, and Christian Hermeticism employs the Tarot quite creatively. A rare book entitled 'Meditations on the Tarot' lays this out in great detail.

The books I have on Kaballah by Jewish authors seems to indicate that this mystical system has much in common with the meditative systems found in the Vedanta and yoga of Patanjali, and Buddhism - control of breathing is very important, for example.

The use of sacred mantras or words are equally important, as is meditating on the sacred symbols found in Kaballah. These techniques and applications are very similar to the use of mandala structures found in certain Tibetan forms of Buddhism in particular.

On the other hand, a book that I have titled 'The Kaballah of the Soul' by Leonora Leet deals exclusively with the path to perfection, the Jewish mystical structure of the soul and it's evolving complexity - including Nefesh consciousness, Ruach consciousness, and Neshamah consciousness.

Here it is assumed that humans have something called a soul - which as you know the Buddhists deny (and if compatibility within mystical systems is an issue!).

On the other hand, consciousness and it's transformation is the essense of every religion,
so how consciousness travels and in what vehicle may be of secondary importance. In fact, Tibetan Buddhism maintains that the 'very subtle essence' which is the eternal and perpetual drop of Spirit contained in each heart must use a body - in whatever realm in may find itself. The manifest realms require a form.

By now I've probably lost the thread of the original idea with my rambling, but mysticism in all it's many forms is the part of religion that interests me the most.

To me, the Kaballah is a magnificent diagram of how materiality emerges from the eternal and unmanifest essence. And of course, there are many other ways to describe this process........

donne and undone. that could be chris everet undoing again

Perspective:

If you are around, I posted to you again twice on Deepak Chopra's thread.

Farnaz

Ryan haber, I believe all this catholic stand against abortion and contraception is not about "holiness" but more of their true father's (the devil) catholic cycle scheme.

THE CATHOLIC CYCLE

In one third world country where population explosion has become a major problem, Catholic chapels or centers offer free operation to untie the fallopian tubes of mothers after indoctrinating them that it's a SIN.

This devilish Church invent their own doctrines so parents would produce more children despite their abject poverty. With more extra children, they are forced to raise them with no proper education and decent meals and most of all, no future.

They then teach these poor people that their government is the cause of their poverty due to corruption but lo and behold those same government personnel are usually "devout catholics".

Some revolt (with the church's help of course) which cause more poverty and this has become a "CATHOLIC CYCLE" which I presume is routinely duplicated around the world.

To escape poverty, many go abroad adding more economic pressure to their countries of destination.

Catholic countries not only over populate, they produce extortionist rebels too. Had you wondered why there are no marxist rebels in Islamic countries but there are so many in catholic countries? It's because many of their priests support that ideology. They breed fast and then kill each other fast too. WHAT A CYCLE.

There are many things this church does which is outside our scope of detection. The devil could be using a much bigger cycle that is harder to detect. Consciously or unconsciously, all catholics is part of that grand cycle.

Arminius - you may not be convinced, but that doesn't mean it's not factual.

When CCNL (or anyone) cites respected academic sources he is dealing with facts.

Instead of writing off his repetitious information, check it out. And go beyond his links and see if any reputable academic source fails to back up what he lists.

Just because religions have been presenting myth as fact for centuries, doesn't make it fact.

E Favorite, you said:

"When CCNL, or anyone, states facts that can be referenced, they are facts -- like 2+2=4 or Springfield is the Capitol of Illinois or there was a mass migration from Europe to America in the early 20th century, or Mount Etna is a volcano."

References? I am unconvinced, and agree with Ryan Habar that the stuff CCNL pastes repeatedly is the stuff of historical theory. Anyway,history is not math or science, there is always a different opinion available. E.g. it is a fact that such-and-such a battle happened on a certain date, but what really went on there can be a matter of debate. As well as any significance of it. Or even who was there.

A few things in CCNL's list could be called factual. Some others are theories, and the rest is opinion, and sometimes not very pleasant opinion.

Arminius

When CCNL, or anyone, states facts that can be referenced, they are facts -- like 2+2=4 or Springfield is the Capitol of Illinois or there was a mass migration from Europe to America in the early 20th century, or Mount Etna is a volcano.

When he, or anyone, states opinions, they are personal and perhaps shared by some others, but are not universally known or accepted. Like - beer is better than wine, so-and-so is stupid, classical music sucks, the mountains are more relaxing than the beach.

For everyone:

More Yeats. See the influence, Perspective?

LAPIS LAZULI
(For Harry Clifton)

I have heard that hysterical women say
They are sick of the palette and fiddle-bow,
Of poets that are always gay,
For everybody knows or else should know
That if nothing drastic is done
Aeroplane and Zeppelin will come out,
Pitch like King Billy bomb-balls in
Until the town lie beaten flat.

All perform their tragic play,
There struts Hamlet, there is Lear,
That’s Ophelia, that Cordelia;
Yet they, should the last scene be there,
The great stage curtain about to drop,
If worthy their prominent part in the play,
Do not break up their lines to weep.
They know that Hamlet and Lear are gay;
Gaiety transfiguring all that dread.
All men have aimed at, found and lost;
Black out; Heaven blazing into the head:
Tragedy wrought to its uttermost.
Though Hamlet rambles and Lear rages,
And all the drop-scenes drop at once
Upon a hundred thousand stages,
It cannot grow by an inch or an ounce.

On their own feet they came, or on shipboard,
Camel-back, horse-back, ass-back, mule-back,
Old civilisations put to the sword.
Then they and their wisdom went to rack:
No handiwork of Callimachus,
Who handled marble as if it were bronze,
Made draperies that seemed to rise
When sea-wind swept the corner, strands;
His long lamp-chimney shaped like a stem
Of a slender palm, stood but a day;
All things fall and are built again,
And those that build them again are gay.

Two Chinamen, behind them a third,
Are carved in lapis lazuli,
Over them flies a long-legged bird,
A symbol of longevity;
The third, doubtless a serving-man,
Carries a musical instrument.

Every discoloration of the stone,
Every accidental crack or dent,
Seems a water-course or an avalanche,
Or lofty slope where it still snows
Though doubtless plum or cherry-branch
Sweetens the little half-way house
Those Chinamen climb towards, and I
Delight to imagine them seated there;
There, on the mountain and the sky,
On all the tragic scene they stare.
One asks for mournful melodies;
Accomplished fingers begin to play.
Their eyes mid many wrinkles, their eyes,
Their ancient, glittering eyes, are gay.

Jihadist,

I am not sure how I fit into your post, except that you complimented the courtesy of my posts. Thank you. It really hasn't been a mission of mine to convert others because I don't believe it is within my responsibilities or capabilities to do so. Naturally, when others' views and mine contradict each other, I will believe that theirs are incorrect, but I always try to listen because I find myself rightly corrected more often than my ego enjoys. I suppose my purpose here is something like that: to expose myself to others' views in a (somewhat) uncensored way. When I see a misconception about the Catholic Faith or Church, I try my best to correct it. When I see the Catholic Church criticized, I try to (1) put the criticism, if true, in context where appropriate; if false (2) expose it as such.

Unfortunately, we in the Catholic Church are still not perfect, which is where the whole part about needing a savior comes in. One of our greatest faults, and I deliberately include myself in the "our", is forgetting that when dealing with others' faults. I am consoled somewhat by noting that we Catholics are not the only people prone to self-righteous arrogance. It seems embedded in human nature to some extent.

Your posts, if I may say so, are always very balanced in tone and fair in approach.

Farnaz,

You do have excellent taste in poetry. Do you enjoy John Donne? He's my favorite Elizabethan poet. Here's a little ditty by him, not an essential, but it shows a bit of his wit. He'd taken a bride named Anne, considerably younger than himself (she was 13 or 15?) and her father, a man of some influence, promptly had him jailed. From jail, he sent her this note.

"John Donne,
Anne Donne,
Undone."

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated's (CCNL) facts aren't proven at all. They aren't even, for the most part, facts. They are philosophical presuppositions, which is fine. We all have philosophical presuppositions, but those aren't the same things are scientifically demonstrated/disproven theories, nor are they the same as historical facts, and they shouldn't be discussed in the same terms, but as philosophical theories.

Spiderman2,

Suffice it to say that, if you will take my word for it, however many millions and billions my Church may have murdered, I haven't murdered anybody. I would hope that, as a Christian, you can muster the courtesy to deal with me as an individual.

My point about the Eucharist and John 6 wasn't whether the Church did whatever. It was only that, if you interpret it literally, you do what the Catholic Church does. If you don't interpret it literally, then you bring your own natural reason to bear on the text to understand it. That opposes "Scripture Alone" and is, also, exactly what the Catholic Church does. Just thought I'd point that out.

Have a great day!

For the not-so-religious.......

The past is already past
Don't try to regain it
The present does not stay
Don't try to touch it

From moment to moment
The future has not come;
Don't think about it
Beforehand

Whatever comes to the eye,
Leave it be.
There are no commandments
To be kept;
There's no filth to be cleansed.

With empty mind really
Penetrated, the dharmas
Have no life.

When you can be like this,
You've completed
The ultimate attainment.

Layman P'ang (740-808)

_____

However deep your
Knowledge of the scriptures,
It is no more than a strand of hair
In the vastness of space;
However important appears
Your worldly experience,
It is but a drop of water in a deep ravine.

Tokusan

_______

When mortals are alive, they worry about death.
When they're full, they worry about hunger.
Theirs is a Great Uncertainty.

But sages don't consider the past.
And they don't worry about the future.
Nor do they cling to the present.
And from moment to moment they follow the Way.

Bodhidharma

______________________

All sentient beings are essentially Buddhas.
As with water and ice, there is no ice
Without water;
Apart from sentient beings, there are no Buddhas.
Not knowing how close the truth is,
we seek it far away - - what a pity!

Hakuin Ekaku Zenji

"CCNL's facts are proven"

Are we in wonderland? Or is that a joke? Add to that Chris Everet remarks and we have 3 stooges.

CCNL's facts are proven and accepted both historically and archeologically; his opinions, attitude and style are his own.

Im sure by now a thinking person would know the last post who claims to be spiderman2 was not me. The whole post says nothing but stupid and Hell without any corresponding REASON why he is using the word stupid. This guy is sick. Chris Everet, clearly.

Farnaz, I like the last one you posted, "the Song of Ascents" which is found in Psalms. It's made into a Christian song and it's one of my favorite song. I feel you're a very good person but think that you are "unfairly" burdened by your job. Can you give me a hint what is your job? That is if it's ok with you.

I also like the other two posts. thanks

The only "poetry" needed:

Until the koran is deflawed,
No one is safe!!!

Until the koran is declawed,
No one is safe!!!

Much Islamic muck and stench there be,
Ditto that from them all.

Oops, forgot to sign in properly.

Again:

Jihhdist, Jihadist, Jihadist,

Not chips on your shoulders but 1400 years of Islamic "fems"!!!!

This Spiderman again. That other guy is impersonating me, so I can't user my name for awhile. But you all can know this is really me, because any idiot stupid enough not to understand God's love is going to be cast into the Lake of Fire.

But then again, maybe it is not me, after all. Maybe this is just some stupid idiot who thinks he can fool me by pretending to be that anonymous person who is impersonating my name Spiderman.

But in any even, we all know from our previous lessons, that God hates stupid people, and that idiots are not allowed into Heaven.

"Inventing"
Ireland..sorry for the typo.

Farnaz,

Yeats the Master

In heroic verse
William Yeats, the Irishman,
Created Ireland.

You have great taste in poetry! If you can find it get :"WB Yeats, poems selected by Seamus Heaney" Also Declan Kiberd "Investing Ireland, the literature of the modern nation", all the chapters on Yeats.

Jihadist

Thank you for your praise. Your posts seemed so ecumenical that I was not surprised to learn of the many facets of your religious background. I guess there are multiple strands of identity in all of us.

You might like this lecture by Mark Thompson, head of the BBC, given recently at Westminster Cathedral here in London. "Faith and the Media" (just add www as, to protect us from JJ we now are unable to link)rcdow.org.uk/lectures/

And to lovers of poetry and those who wonder about man and creation:

The Four Ages of Man

He with body waged a fight,
But body won; it walks upright.

Then he struggled with he heart;
Innocence and peace depart.

Then he struggled with the mind;
His proud heart he left behind.

Now his wars on God begin;
At stroke of midnight God shall win.

WB Yeats
from "A Full Moon in March" (1935)

This one is for you, Susan Jacoby. It's Keats. Prefer Blake's anti-clerical work from Songs of Experience, but I think it might be a bit too much for some people. This is surely not Keats at his best. But at his worst, he was better than most.

Written in Disgust of Vulgar Superstition

The church bells toll a melancholy round,
Calling the people to some other prayers,
Some other gloominess, more dreadful cares,
More heark'ning to the sermon's horrid sound.
Surely the mind of man is closely bound
In some black spell; seeing that each one tears
Himself from fireside joys, and Lydian airs,
And converse high of those with glory crown'd.
Still, still they toll, and I should feel a damp,
A chill as from a tomb, did I not know
That they are dying like an outburnt lamp;
That 'tis their sighing, wailing ere they go
Into oblivion;—that fresh flowers will grow,
And many glories of immortal stamp.

I don't think you will object to this one, Spiderman. My last before returning to the horror, the horror. Again, I can promise nothing with respect to lineation.

A Song of Ascents

I will lift up mine eyes unto the mountains: from whence shall my help come?

ב עֶזְרִי, מֵעִם יְהוָה-- עֹשֵׂה, שָׁמַיִם וָאָרֶץ. 2 My help cometh from the LORD, who made heaven and earth.

ג אַל-יִתֵּן לַמּוֹט רַגְלֶךָ; אַל-יָנוּם, שֹׁמְרֶךָ. 3 He will not suffer thy foot to be moved; He that keepeth thee will not slumber.

ד הִנֵּה לֹא-יָנוּם, וְלֹא יִישָׁן-- שׁוֹמֵר, יִשְׂרָאֵל. 4 Behold, He that keepeth Israel doth neither slumber nor sleep.

ה יְהוָה שֹׁמְרֶךָ; יְהוָה צִלְּךָ, עַל-יַד יְמִינֶךָ. 5 The LORD is thy keeper; the LORD is thy shade upon thy right hand.

ו יוֹמָם, הַשֶּׁמֶשׁ לֹא-יַכֶּכָּה; וְיָרֵחַ בַּלָּיְלָה. 6 The sun shall not smite thee by day, nor the moon by night.

ז יְהוָה, יִשְׁמָרְךָ מִכָּל-רָע: יִשְׁמֹר, אֶת-נַפְשֶׁךָ. 7 The LORD shall keep thee from all evil; He shall keep thy soul.

ח יְהוָה, יִשְׁמָר-צֵאתְךָ וּבוֹאֶךָ-- מֵעַתָּה, וְעַד-עוֹלָם. 8 The LORD shall guard thy going out and thy coming in, from this time forth and for ever. {P}

Do you know this one? It is magnificent to me. Although so many great artists have sung it, for me, only my dear friend Donald does justice to it. In this dire moment of reading papers that no one except, perhaps, the likes of Sadaam Hussein should have ever have to read, I hear Donald's singing. The lineation will probably not come out all right. Sorry, but if you like it, you can google it.

Precious Lord

Precious Lord, take my hand
Lead me on, let me stand
I'm tired, I’m weak, I’m lone
Through the storm, through the night
Lead me on to the light
Take my hand precious Lord, lead me home

When my way grows drear precious Lord linger near
When my life is almost gone
Hear my cry, hear my call
Hold my hand lest I fall
Take my hand precious Lord, lead me home

When the darkness appears and the night draws near
And the day is past and gone
At the river I stand
Guide my feet, hold my hand
Take my hand precious Lord, lead me home

Precious Lord, take my hand
Lead me on, let me stand
I'm tired, I’m weak, Lord I’m worn
Through the storm, through the night
Lead me on to the light
Take my hand precious Lord, lead me home

Spiderman, if you are still awake, here is another poem. I don't think you'll like it much, but if you knew what I am working on now, you will understand why I posted it. So, please don't be annoyed. I'll see what I can find of Rev. Taylor tomorrow.

Gerard Manley Hopkins (1844–1889)

God's Grandeur

The world is charged with the grandeur of God.
It will flame out, like shining from shook foil;
It gathers to a greatness, like the ooze of oil
Crushed. Why do men then now not reck his rod?
Generations have trod, have trod, have trod;
And all is seared with trade; bleared, smeared with toil;
And wears man's smudge and shares man's smell: the soil
Is bare now, nor can foot feel, being shod.

And for all this, nature is never spent;
There lives the dearest freshness deep down things;
And though the last lights off the black West went
Oh, morning, at the brown brink eastward, springs—
Because the Holy Ghost over the bent
World broods with warm breast and with ah! bright wings.

Jihhdist, Jihadist, Jihadist,

Not chips on your shoulders but 1400 years of Islamic "fems"!!!!

Daniel in the Lion's Den,

Hello. Good to see you back here again. We are a bunch here aren't we? :)

You : "And finally, for many of the religious people who post here, I think going through life with a chip on your shoulder would be a tiresome burden, and that you might feel lighter, and your way would be easier, if that chip were gone."

I don't know about the rest of the religious people here, but a psychologist and psychiatrist, who were monitoring this thread, came for me.

They discovered that I have chips on both shoulders, chips on my fish (in fish and chips) and chips with my burgers (Wendy's).

They are putting me in a straightjacket and sending me to a nuthouse to study and decide whether chips on both shoulders weighted me down and tires me out, or balance me out.

I am pleading a permanent state of temporary insanity.

Cheers

"J"

paulgraham.com/disagree.html
blog.createdebate.com/2008/04/07/how-to-write-strong-arguments/

*cough* :)

thanks farnaz, same to you.

Hi Spiderman,

Thank you so much for letting me know, but I did not think for a moment that you could have been that person.

Now, I'm afraid I must get back to my dreaded work.

Have a very, very good night, my friend.

Farnaz

Farnaz, thanks. That was a great poem. Thanks for posting it.

Farnaz, I think this fake spiderman2 is really Chris Everet.

The guy is an idiot. You can't expect something good from idiots.

Im sorry he's in his destructive mode again. Thanks for distinguishing that Im not that stupid one.

He once accused me of being Ilan. Now he's accusing Ilan, you and Liora as only one person too.

This person think he is good but it's very far from reality.

If something good happened today, at least I know who that fake spiderman2 is now.

Now, this new Anonymous cannot be Spiderman. I must tell you, however, that I do not think Ilan is a brown Persian Sfardic woman. Of course, this is the internet, so anything is possible. However, he sounds Askenazic to me, and has used language I do not use. (Ilan, if you are reading this, I do not mean to criticze.)

Liora,