All Comments (459)

hese "cafeteria Catholics" also want the church to allow priests to marry and to admit women to the priesthood--"a move that would eliminate the priest shortage overnight."

>>I love this ignorant cliche. The Episcopal Church has both married and female clergy, yet it has just as bad of a vocations crisis as the Catholic Church.

I might add the vocations crisis is chiefly in liberal dioceses and religious orders. Tell me why the Latin Mass Fraternity of St. Peter, Institute of Christ the King and conservative dioceses have a stream of applicants for the priesthood.

Susan Jacoby is simply ignorant and narrow-minded in her own way.

What you write is naive hate literature. There are Catholic and Orthodox priests who are married with children, and I can go on at great lengths to prove you are wrong on so many points etc etc.... You are on a dangerous and erroneous tirade. Maybe you should have been in bed with Islamic terrorists. I am an atheist myself, know better and detest your lack of knowledge, incite and "hip" lambasting drivel.

Hmmm, all this OT and NT "CandPing" and thumping requires another dose of the flaw and error review in order to bring the topic back into the reality that baptizing Muslims or anyone else for that matter has no meaning because baptism has no theological meaning.

Once again the "flaws and errors in it all" for those eyes have not seen:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a mythical character as was Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

And the first myth of the OT is the story of A&E. There was no magical garden, no talking snakes and no original sin to baptize away.

1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.
simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

3. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

4. Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds these acts of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."

The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."
"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life. e.g. Buddha by one legend was supposedly talking when he came out of his mother's womb.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.

Harold, editing together random, long, vague, unconnected Bible verses accomplishes nothing. Please come to the point!

It's odd how these long-winded religious rants seem to come through fine, but a short paragraphy from the rational bounces.

To HAROLD and SPIDERMAN2:

STOP NOW this spamming and board flooding!

POST HERE objectively understandable, empirically verifiable evidence of your claims!

Rejecting Papal Infallibility only to accept the literal truth of the Bible instead seems delusional in the extreme.

Accepting that even one human ascended bodily into heaven is called falling prey to one's own misguided beliefs in the supernatural - all the while rejecting other faith-inspired and similarly held beliefs as 'preposterious and superstitious'.

Protestants, I suppose, have Martin Luther to thank for their own peculiar beliefs in the 'literal' truth of the Bible - even after he had re-written it himself in German. He was also a world-class anti-semite, believing that Jews should be expunged from Europe with their properties re-distributed to God-fearing Christians.

To imagine that the Reformation yielded anything substantively or spiritually superior to Catholicism as a form of 'faith' founded on 'more valid' truths is simply a form of self-delusion.

Old disillusioned & apostate Catholics rarely turn to Protestantism as a substitute for rejected religious fantasy - as a rule we like our mythology first-hand and from more original sources. On the other hand, everything about Catholicism & Christianity in general is borrowed from yet older religious traditions, mythologies and allegorical tales of the Divine.

Need it be said that humans and their very fertile imaginations have cooked up a potent brew of religion and religious behaviors from as far back as Neanderthal and maybe even as far back as our very early hominid ancestors, Homo Erectus.
It's in the genes folks - that's DNA to our genetics expects such as Spiderman2, et al.

However, there's no cure for the incurable, as the saying goes. We'll all be listening to this utter nonsense about the literal truth of religion for decades to come.........

TO HAROLD:

Jesus said, "I will write it on their hearts, not on stone", or something to that effect, did He not?

The computer can pump out reams of words out of the bible but they don't mean anything to the computer, do they mean anything to you?

Divine Justice and Divine Mercy go hand in hand, God's Plan will come to Fruition.

Take care, see you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

TO SPIDERMAN2:

Genesis, "I will put enmity between you and The Woman.

At the Cross, "Woman behold thy son, behold thy Mother.

In Revelations there is a reference to a Woman also, something about 12 stars and the moon.

At the Anunciation, God asked permission of Mary to become a Man and Mary said Yes.

We have free will and Mary of her own free will said YES.

By the way, Jesus said many, many things not just the ones that you bring up, do you remember the 'do not add or subtract things'?

Jesus said, "I have come into the world, not to condemn the world but that the world might be saved.", did He not?

You do not seem to have a clue what being a "Christian" is about, remember Jesus extended an invitation to, "Come follow Me", did He not? Jesus also said on the cross, "Father forgive them, they know not what they do", did He not?

So many people throughout the AD period have used the bible to judge and condemn others that it is sad, to say the least, if someone judges anyone it should be themself that they judge not others.

God's Plan is for ALL to be with Him in His Kingdom.

You don't seem to have a clue about hell either, hell is custom built by each and everyone of it's occupants and since Jesus took ALL of the sins of humanity upon Himself on the cross, He won the keys and He will use them in due time [God's Time].

Take care, see you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom [the new heavens and the new earth].

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Here's why Catholicsim is a stupid religion. This is one doctrine in which pope pius XII used his "INFALLIBILY power". STUPIDITY TO THE MAX.

The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary
(by : Ignatius Brady, O.F.M., Catholic University of America)

" The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary is the Catholic belief that 'the Immaculate Mother of God, Mary ever virgin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up (assumed) body and soul into heavenly glory.' This definition of Pope Pius XII (1950), which crystallizes what the church has always held whether implicitly or explicitly, likewise indicates the scriptural basis and theological reasons of the doctrine: since God in choosing Mary to be the mother of Christ had preserved her from original sin (Immaculate Conception) and had kept her a virgin even in her motherhood, it was fitting that He grant her final victory over death by freeing her body from all corruption and bringing it together with her soul to the glory of heaven. Testimony to the universal belief in this doctrine can be traced to early Christian (Catholic) times. The feast, on August 15, certainly antedates the decree of the Byzantine Emperor Maurice (582-602) that it be celebrated throughout his empire. "

Rebuttal :

First, there is no scriptural record that Mary ascended to heaven. In the Bible, there were only three people who ascended bodily to heaven. They were Enoch (Genesis 5:24), Elijah (II Kings 2:11) and Jesus Christ (Acts 1:9)

Second , the scripture says that after the virgin birth of Jesus, Mary bore at least 6 more children ( Matthew 13:55-56). She certainly did not remain a virgin.

Third, about claims that Mary was sinless, let us hear what the apostles John and Paul had said :

I John 1:8 " If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselfves, and the truth is not in us. "

Romans 3:23 " For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

Even before these false teachings appeared , God already knew this coming. In Revelation 2:2 , we can read His prophetic verse, " I know thy works, and thy labor, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil : and thou hast tried (or tested) them who say they are apostles (RC's creed of apostolic succesion), but are not, and hast found them LIARS. "

The book was called Revelation because God had foretold the future to Apostle John in the island of Patmos, Greece . In that said verse, God was talking about a future false church.

Jose Rizal certainly heard it loud and clear.

Beware of False Prophets

In terms of occupancy, hell is much bigger than heaven coz many will go to that place of torment compared to those who will make it to heaven. One major factor why it is so is because of false religions or false prophets who propagate it.

In Matthew 7:13-15 Jesus said "...wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction (Hell), and many there be which go in thereat; ... strait (or limited in space) is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life (Heaven), and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets which come to you in sheep's clothing...".

The fact that God had said that many will go to hell and few to heaven just shows that these false prophets are much more effective in teaching their false doctrines than those who preach the true word of God. As a result, they have a much larger following.

It is very disappointing that many religions today use the name of Jesus Christ and that its priests or preachers act like they are His servants but in truth are really servants of the devil. It is equally disappointing that many members of these churches are easily duped into believing what they falsely teach.

Since the year 2001, four so called "Christian" nations have already legalized gay marriage. It's quite amazing that four nations (The Netherlands, Belgium, Spain and Canada) legalized it in just a span of 4 years. Next year, there could be another two or more and before we know it, other "Christian" nations would be following their lead just like popcorn. The only thing to blame in here is their practiced religion.

It should be noted that both Belgium and Spain are Catholic countries. Canada is 43% Catholic and 29% Protestant and most of its Protestant churches have linkups with the Catholic Church and other false religions thru its Ecumenical Movement. Their biggest protestant group, The United Church of Canada (UCC), previously stated that their church welcome "sexually active single adults, lesbian, gay and bisexual people into all aspects of the life and ministry of the Church". It means that they see nothing wrong with people engaged in fornication, adultery and same sex unions. If we read the Bible, these are the same people God will burn in Hell. Clearly, there are two conflicting messages here -- one from God and the other from the devil. Since their church unashamedly teach the devil's doctrine, it's more fitting that they should call their church as the United Devil's Church of Canada. That way, it would clear up things and there will be no mixups. The Netherlands, on the other hand, has become a secular state which means most of its populace has no religious affiliation. In Massachusetts, which currently is the only state in the U.S that have legalized gay marriage, 54% of its populace is Catholic and still rising..

This is just the cross-section of the kind of religions those people who supported gay marriage have. Most of them were Catholics, liberal Protestants that have linkups with other false religions and Secularists who are either aetheists or skeptics. All these religions or beliefs have one thing in common. They worship the same "God" but not the God in the Bible for in Romans 1:32 it states, "Who, knowing the judgment of God, that they who commit such things are worthy of death...".

When God speaks of death, He means everlasting hellfire. The people who approved of it never knew that they have stretched even wider what is already a very broad pathway to Hell. Most probably, they too are breezing thru that road themselves and on their way to destruction. No more stoplights for the lights or religions they attend to like the UCC have been signalling them to push on and run on full speed.

False religions are not that really hard to detect. Jesus said that "ye will know them by their fruits". So the next time another country, state or city legalizes gay marriage, examine what kind of religion those people who approved of it profess. And as sure as the sun rises from the east, those people would be either Catholic, liberal Protestants or Secularists.

When God says beware, one should not take it lightly. In Luke 12:5 Jesus said, "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear Him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear Him."

But what makes it more fearsome is the fact that it cannot be appealed like what other false religions want to suggest by teaching reincarnation or purgatory. The judgment of God is final and wherever He puts us in, Heaven or Hell, that would be permanent. The same is the fire and the worms crawling in one's body. They too would be permanent. The worms won't die and the fire won't quench either. It really is a place of torment and it's really very sad if some foolish religion would send somebody there.

"Beware of false prophets", said the Lord. I hope everybody would really ponder on this one.

And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.
And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.

“those which were possessed with devils”

And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him.

“suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him”

And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice,
Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.

“a spirit of an unclean devil; what have we to do with thee, I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God”

The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

“The enemy that sowed them is the devil”
“suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him”
“a spirit of an unclean devil; what have we to do with thee, I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God”

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

“ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you”

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

“the Spirit speaketh expressly”
“giving heed to seducing spirits”
‘doctrines of devils”
“For every creature of God is good”
“For it is sanctified by the word of God”

“those which were possessed with devils”
“suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him”
“a spirit of an unclean devil; what have we to do with thee, I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God”
“The enemy that sowed them is the devil”
“the Spirit speaketh expressly”
“giving heed to seducing spirits”
‘doctrines of devils”
“For every creature of God is good”
“For it is sanctified by the word of God”

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil”
"by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."
"Necho king of Egypt came up, hearkened not unto the words of Necho from the mouth of God"
“a spirit of an unclean devil; what have we to do with thee, I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God”
“For every creature of God is good”
“For it is sanctified by the word of God”

ccnl said "How about some specifics concerning the generalities"

What I post is specific, if I add to it, those words may be considered generalities.

Is it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest?
And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.
The meek also shall increase their joy in the Lord, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.

They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.

Was it Jim Carrey who starred in dumb and dumber?

If they are looking for the dumbest, nothing would beat this person.

Ok harold, show them what you got. Impress the hollywood kingpins.

Ponderer, what is it that you don't understand with the things I posted?

see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil

Here is wisdom, if you do not see it, if you do not hear it, then you will not speak it.

what kind of heart you have will determine your faith

Jews teach Moses, Aaron, David, Solomon
They have a heart from whom it was given.

harold, I understand the Bible but I don't understand what you are trying to prove with the kind of postings you make.

The only reason you're doing that is to flood this page.

Ponderer, what is it that you don't understand with the things I posted? I assume even a 1st grader would understand my posts. Please ask them if you need some help concerning reading comprehension.

spiderman2 said "Harold is a catholic and see how he defends his faith."

Saul is not a catholic
David is not a catholic
Solomon is not a catholic
Judas was not a catholic.

"see how he defends his faith" with the Word of the LORD, spiderman2 has not a heart to perceive, eyes to see, or ears to hear.

"But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

see how spiderman2 he defends his faith

"by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

"Necho king of Egypt came up, hearkened not unto the words of Necho from the mouth of God"

THE SEAT OF SATAN WOULD BURN SOON. THAT IS THE PROPHECY.

After all this, when Josiah had prepared the temple, Necho king of Egypt came up to fight against Carchemish by Euphrates: and Josiah went out against him.
But he sent ambassadors to him, saying, What have I to do with thee, thou king of Judah? I come not against thee this day, but against the house wherewith I have war: for God commanded me to make haste: forbear thee from meddling with God, who is with me, that he destroy thee not.
Nevertheless Josiah would not turn his face from him, but disguised himself, that he might fight with him, and hearkened not unto the words of Necho from the mouth of God, and came to fight in the valley of Megiddo.

I guess I'm the only one who finds Spiderman2s reference to "rational discussion" amusing??

Jonathan, Harold is a catholic and see how he defends his faith. Just exactly as Rafam did some days ago in which I was convinced that Islam is the most evil. Now it's a toss-up again. There are Catholics who behave like Islamic terrorists too. They just flood the page just to escape rational discussion.

It's been like this for centuries, the Vatican killing those people who challenge their doctrines to silence opposition.

HAROLD IS A VERY CLEAR EXAMPLE OF HOW THIS CHURCH OPERATES. THIS CHURCH HAS CREATED SO MUCH EVIL AROUND THE WORLD. THERE ARE MILLIONS OF HAROLDS OUT THERE THAT YOU DON'T SEE COZ THEY OPERATE IN THE JUNGLES FIGHTING THEIR GOVERNMENTS AND COLLECTING REVOLUTIONARY TAXES FROM THE POOR PEOPLE AND SCARING THE POPULACE NOT TO WORK IN THEIR FARM AND SO THE POVERTY CONTINUES, NON STOP

GOD HAS HAD ENOUGH OF THIS CHURCH, ITS HEADQUARTERS, THE SEAT OF SATAN WOULD BURN SOON. THAT IS THE PROPHECY.

Spiderman2 wrote:

"This is why Catholicism is dangerous. It cannot defend itself thru RATIONAL THINKING that is why it resorts to TERRORISM."

And:

"The fact that I can accurately foretell the future by reading the bible is enough proof that it is a trustworthy book."

First, don't let the pot accuse the kettle. Your pompous claims are no less unproven than those of Ratzinger. Second, don't count your chickens before they are hatched. Your statements about "prophecy" remain unproven and unprovable, as the future is always a malleable work in progress until after the fact.

Someone else has been quoting Josephus as a reliable historian for Jesus. I have to clarify: JOSEPHUS NEVER WROTE ABOUT JESUS! The so-called Josephus Testimony was forged by an editor named Eusebius who lived 300 years after Josephus. This is apparent because all the statements in are strictly against Josephus' personal and political views about messianism. Earl Doherty's Jesus Puzzle e-book proves this empirically.

I personally believe that the historic Jesus was really the organized crime kingpin Joshua Barabbas, as Michael Magee shows at www.askwhy.co.uk in the New Testament section. It's a great read.

Grouse: if you're still reading, I found this from the Catholic Answers web site:

"A pope’s private theological opinions are not infallible, only what he solemnly defines is considered to be infallible teaching."

So there you have it, it's infallible if it's defined "solemnly." Seems like Susan was right on that account.

Additionally, this is what bannered the web site, so we all might get a flavor of the Catholic Answers web site in general:

"...If you want to help us defend our Catholic youth against the deceptive work of “Catholics for a Free Choice” … “Condoms 4 Life” … “Homosexuals and Church” … “Community Action Against Homophobia” … and a host of other extremist groups . . .

. . . then please read on . . . Here’s What We Plan to Do to Stop Them! "

Wow it makes me want to jump right into the Catholic boat!

TO HUMANITY:

I am thankful that God has a Plan.

I am thankful that God is not even close to being anything like what some of the people that know His Name think that He is.

Take care, be ready, see you in the Kingdom [the new heavens and the new earth].

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Spiderman2,

Your continued commenartary simply adds more credence to what has been noted before:

Fools are those who have read only the bible. God cannot be proud of such lazy creations!!!!

What "voodooer of the hoodoo" blessed you with such stupidity in the field of fortune telling and interpretations of said stupidity???

The fact that I can accurately foretell the future by reading the bible is enough proof that it is a trustworthy book and the fact that unbelievers don't understand and don't know how to interpret it's metaphors is a sign that it is a VERY INTELLIGENT DOCUMENT.

The authors themselves like Apostle John and Daniel don't know what they wrote but the people for whom it is written (the future believers) understand it very loud and clear. THAT IN ITSELF IS A SMALL MIRACLE IF NOT A MIRACLE TO THE HIGHEST DEGREE.

See also Wikipedia's review of the historical Jesus to include the Tacitus' reference to the crucifixion of Jesus.

From ask.com,

"One of the greatest historians of ancient Rome, Cornelius Tacitus is a primary source for much of what is known about life the first and second centuries after the life of Jesus. His most famous works, Histories and Annals, exist in fragmentary form, though many of his earlier writings were lost to time. Tacitus is known for being generally reliable (if somewhat biased toward what he saw as Roman immorality) and for having a uniquely direct (if not blunt) writing style."

Besides the Josephus references, NT exegetes like Professors Crossan, Borg, Fredriksen, Wright and Armstrong) use the following attestations to Jesus' crucifixion as proof he existed.

Crucifixion of Jesus:(1) 1 Cor 15:3b; (2a) Gos. Pet. 4:10-5:16,18-20; 6:22; (2b) Mark 15:22-38 = Matt 27:33-51a = Luke 23:32-46; (2c) John 19:17b-25a,28-36; (3) Barn. 7:3-5; (4a) 1 Clem. 16:3-4 (=Isaiah 53:1-12); (4b) 1 Clem. 16.15-16 (=Psalm 22:6-8); (5a) Ign. Mag. 11; (5b) Ign. Trall. 9:1b; (5c) Ign. Smyrn. 1.2.-

I (Professor Crossan) do not presume that there were any high-level confrontations between Caiaphas and Pilate and Herod Antipas either about Jesus or with Jesus. No doubt they would have agreed before the festival that fast action was to be taken against any disturbance and that a few examples by crucifixion might be especially useful at the outset. And I doubt very much if Jewish police or Roman soldiers needed to go too far up the chain of command in handling a Galilean peasant like Jesus. It is hard for us to imagine the casual brutality with which Jesus was probably taken and executed. All those "last week" details in our gospels, as distinct from the brute facts just mentioned, are prophecy turned into history, rather than history remembered.

From Professor Crossan's book, Who was Jesus?,

The Jewish historian, Josephus and the pagan historian Tacitus both agree that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea. And is very hard to imagine that Jesus' followers would have invented such a story unless it indeed happened.

I hope Susan omits the spamming post of harold .

This is why Catholicism is dangerous. It cannot defend itself thru RATIONAL THINKING that is why it resorts to TERRORISM.

The only time they stop FORCED CONVERSION in their history is when they CANNOT enforced it anymore because of heavy defeats in the wars they started.

Copy and paste that again and again repeatedly as what you do with other scriptures.

it is BETTER TO MARRY THAN TO BURN." (1 Corinthians 7:9)
it is BETTER TO MARRY THAN TO BURN." (1 Corinthians 7:9)
it is BETTER TO MARRY THAN TO BURN." (1 Corinthians 7:9)

No pope will ever go to heaven coz they don't believe the Bible.

For the rest of the catholics who think the same way as their pope, TAKE HEED OR YOU TOO WILL BURN.

Hmmm, getting some "blog holding" messages about innocuous commentary. Very strange!!

Let us submit a little at a time and see what is upsetting the "blog dogs" at WaPo.

That Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate, as the Creed states, is as certain as anything historical can ever be.

Harold,

Hmmm, Bred, Born and Brainwashed in the OT I see!!! How about some specifics concerning the generalities of your text to include the passages of the OT you are citing??

the hidden manna

That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant.
They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar.
Bless, Lord, his substance, and accept the work of his hands; smite through the loins of them that rise against him, and of them that hate him, that they rise not again.

David
I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven

And God gave Solomon wisdom and understanding exceeding much, and largeness of heart, even as the sand that is on the sea shore.
And Solomon's wisdom excelled the wisdom of all the children of the east country, and all the wisdom of Egypt.
For he was wiser than all men; than Ethan the Ezrahite, and Heman, and Chalcol, and Darda, the sons of Mahol: and his fame was in all nations round about.

That in blessing I will bless thee as the sand which is upon the sea shore

Solomon wisdom and understanding exceeding much, and largeness of heart, even as the sand that is on the sea shore.

And ye shall serve the Lord your God, and He shall bless thy bread, and thy water

“He shall bless thy bread”

“With him will I speak mouth to mouth”
“Thou shalt feed my people Israel”
“The lips of the righteous feed many”
“I have preached righteousness, I have not refrained my lips”

“He shall bless thy water”
The Lord is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup: thou maintainest my lot.

I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the Lord.

“He shall bless thy water”

“drinketh water of the rain of heaven”
“My doctrine shall drop as the rain”
“where were twelve wells of water, and threescore and ten palm trees: and they encamped there by the waters.”
“The Lord is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup”
“I will take the cup of salvation”

Soul- bread= my mouth speaketh wisdom my lips righteousness
Breath- water= My doctrine my cup

These sought their register among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but they were not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood.
And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and with Thummim.
The whole congregation together was forty and two thousand three hundred and threescore,

“they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and with Thummim.”

“Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one”

“be with thy holy one”

Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

“the golden pot that had manna”

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

“the hidden manna”

And ye shall serve the Lord your God, and He shall bless thy bread, and thy water

“He shall bless thy bread”

“With him will I speak mouth to mouth”
“Thou shalt feed my people Israel”
“The lips of the righteous feed many”
“I have preached righteousness, I have not refrained my lips”

I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the Lord.

“He shall bless thy water”

“drinketh water of the rain of heaven”
“My doctrine shall drop as the rain”
“where were twelve wells of water, and threescore and ten palm trees: and they encamped there by the waters.”
“The Lord is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup”
“I will take the cup of salvation”

Soul- bread= my mouth speaketh wisdom my lips righteousness
Breath- water= My doctrine my cup

the table of the covenant;

Soul- bread= my mouth speaketh wisdom my lips righteousness
Breath- water= My doctrine my cup

For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

“thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies”

And they blessed Rebekah, and said unto her, Thou art our sister, be thou the mother of thousands of millions, and let thy seed possess the gate of those which hate them.

“let thy seed possess the gate of those which hate them.”

And the Lord said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

“two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels”

As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.
And Mary abode with her about three months, and returned to her own house.

“Abraham, and to his seed for ever.” “Mary abode with her about three months”

Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.
Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the common hall, and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers.
And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.
And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!
And they spit upon him, and took the reed, and smote him on the head.
And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.
And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross.
And when they were come unto a place called Golgotha, that is to say, a place of a skull,
They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.
And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

“Golgotha, that is to say, a place of a skull”

And as Jehu entered in at the gate, she said, Had Zimri peace, who slew his master?
And he lifted up his face to the window, and said, Who is on my side? who? And there looked out to him two or three eunuchs.
And he said, Throw her down. So they threw her down: and some of her blood was sprinkled on the wall, and on the horses: and he trode her under foot.
And when he was come in, he did eat and drink, and said, Go, see now this cursed woman, and bury her: for she is a king's daughter.
And they went to bury her: but they found no more of her than the skull, and the feet, and the palms of her hands.
Wherefore they came again, and told him. And he said, This is the word of the Lord, which he spake by his servant Elijah the Tishbite, saying, In the portion of Jezreel shall dogs eat the flesh of Jezebel:
And the carcase of Jezebel shall be as dung upon the face of the field in the portion of Jezreel; so that they shall not say, This is Jezebel.

“And there looked out to him two or three eunuchs”
“Throw her down”
“now this cursed woman, and bury her: for she is a king's daughter.”
“for she is a king's daughter.”
“found no more of her than the skull”
“the feet”
“the palms of her hands”
“the portion of Jezreel shall dogs eat the flesh of Jezebel”

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

“faith cometh by the word of God”

Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

“taking the shield of faith”
“And take the helmet of salvation”
“sword of the Spirit”
“is the word of God”

But be not thou far from me, O Lord: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.

“Deliver my soul from the sword”

“from the power of the dog”

“Deliver my soul from the sword”

“taking the shield of faith”
“And take the helmet of salvation”
“sword of the Spirit”
“is the word of God”

“for she is a king's daughter.”
“found no more of her than the skull”
“Golgotha, that is to say, a place of a skull”
“the feet”
“the palms of her hands”
“the portion of Jezreel shall dogs eat the flesh of Jezebel”

“thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies”
“Abraham, and to his seed for ever.” “Mary abode with “her” about three months”

“blessed Rebekah”
“let thy seed possess the gate of those which hate them.”
“two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels”

For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
“Golgotha, that is to say, a place of a skull”

“And there looked out to him two or three eunuchs”

“found no more of her than the skull”
“the feet”
“the palms of her hands”
“the portion of Jezreel shall dogs eat the flesh of Jezebel”

“Deliver my soul from the sword”

“from the power of the dog”
“the portion of Jezreel shall dogs eat the flesh of Jezebel”

The Jesus Seminar after reviewing all the scriptural and non-scriptural documents from the time period, voted red (the event occurred) as follows:

Jesus was crucified

Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate

Jesus was crucified with the participation of the highest Jewish authorities

Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem

Jesus was crucified at Golgotha

For those interested in historical Jesus studies, see Professor Crossan's books, Who is Jesus, The Historical Jesus and Excavating Jesus. Other contemporary NT exegetes and their books on the subject are reviewed at earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

Testing, one, two, three

Spiderman2 and Concerned the Christian Now Liberated:

You both need to grow up, and write in a mature fashion. CTCNL has some good points about the historicity (and lack thereof) of the Bible, but doesn't get them across very well.

Spidey is right about the superstitious nonsense of the Catholic Church, but take the plank out of your own eye before removing your brother's speck, as your posts are full of similar nonsense and superstition, as CTCNL says, pretty magic wingy flying thingies.

The straight record: There is no evidence Abraham or Moses existed, and good evidence AGAINST Moses and Joshua. Egypt and the Sinai Peninsula have been searched for evidence of Israelites camped there for the requisite years, and there are no Israelite markers or litter for 400 years in Egypt or 40 years in the desert where their garbage would have accumulated. The Joshua years were a peaceful time, when Jericho was a small unfortified village, not the great walled city it only became AFTER the Israelites took over.

The kings from David onward are probably a good list, just as we have good POTUS lists today. Fairy tales and magic like Elijah's fire were sprinkled in wherever the myth-makers saw fit.

Nineveh never had a citywide revival like the one Jonah supposedly caused.

The Book of Daniel has the wrong identities for the kings it describes and completely invents a fictitious king, Darius the Mede. It was written to describe a time 400 years earlier than its writer, who had not perfectly researched the time. Similarly Esther is the story of a great war which could never have happened in the well-documented time described. These are alternate-historical fictions like Gone With the Wind or Forrest Gump.

There is no record of a messianic preacher who was named Jesus and had the right descriptions, nor any unusual earthquakes, eclipses or bread-multiplications at the right time, yet Josephus should have written much about the former (the famous Jesus Letter of Josephus is a confirmed forgery), and Pliny the Elder should have written about the latter. Everywhere that should have Jesus-evidence, doesn't, so there is reason to say he didn't exist, or only existed as a common man.

Revelation "predicts" a great war in the OLD Roman Empire which never happened, so its author John is a false prophet.

Biology of neurons has confirmed that the "soul" comes from the brain and does not outlast it, and is not from "God."

Lastly, if God wants people to "believe" in his existence, he ought to take a public stroll down Times Square!

Exposing stupidity is not synonymous to unkindness, anger and hate. In fact we always do this to our kids. We teach them not to be stupid even with a loud voice or a stick in our hand.

It's called care otherwise we let them go astray.

In this day of man's humanity to man, of unkindness, anger and hate, it would be well for any contributor to be asked kindly, before writing, to sit down and remove hate and anger from their thoughts and feelings. These emotions color negatively the approach anyone makes to a topic, and likely impinge on the accuracy of comments made.

It is helpful, though, for a contributor to do as Susan Jacoby did here, to state the position from which he or she operates. Knowing that she has left Catholicism does help us put her words into perspective. As one who is of another religious persuasion than Catholicism, I champion kindness and fairness toward any religious group in addition to my own.

Phillip C. Smith, Ph.D.

Spiderman2,

Your papal exorcism has been scheduled for next Friday in Rome. CNN will cover the event.

Harold wrote " But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. let the dead bury their dead. a dead language be read to the masses. "

This is a clear sign of a fool interpreting the Bible. A dead language be read to the masses? That is because the masses you're refering to are the Catholic masses who are "dead" or UNSAVED. The "living" are those who have attained "life" or eternal life and the "dead" are those UNSAVED and are going to Hell.

If you refer to Catholics as the dead crowd, you are exactly right. Right on this one but wrong on the rest.

Can't you see what Catholicism had done to your thinking? Is that what your stupid priests told you?

I pity you guys. The blind leading the blind continues for centuries. They never learned although centuries have already passed since Christ spoke those words.

Let the dead bury the dead means let the unsaved bury the unsaved.

When will you folks learn? That is a clear example of a "natural man" without the guidance of the Holy Spirit interpreting the Word of God.

That is the result of years of Catechism or man-made doctrines. You have become an institution of fools.

Harold, Harold, Harold

The Bible is like a surgeon's sharp scalpel. It can be very useful in the hands of the surgeon but if a fool holds it, it becomes a dangerous tool.

Had you not wondered how those bread and "holy water" made those number of priests become p e d o p h i l e s and fornicators?

They spend more time eating those bread and "blessing" those "holy" water than reading the Bible and let it guide them.

The Bible is the holy water and the holy bread. Eat it so you will be filled.

COPY AND PASTE THIS SO YOUR POPE AND PRIESTS WILL LEARN

"But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is BETTER TO MARRY THAN TO BURN." (1 Corinthians 7:9)

And that I can say is INFALLIBLE.

Copy and paste that again and again repeatedly as what you do with other scriptures.

it is BETTER TO MARRY THAN TO BURN." (1 Corinthians 7:9)
it is BETTER TO MARRY THAN TO BURN." (1 Corinthians 7:9)
it is BETTER TO MARRY THAN TO BURN." (1 Corinthians 7:9)

No pope will ever go to heaven coz they don't believe the Bible.

For the rest of the catholics who think the same way as their pope, TAKE HEED OR YOU TOO WILL BURN.

Spiderman2,

I called the Pope about your condition. He is willing to do your exorcism, here or in Rome. Your choice!!!

But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

let the dead bury their dead.
a dead language be read to the masses
"counted as sheep for the slaughter"
"Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them"

Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.

Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.

The Church Jesus Christ Built

In Matthew 16:18 Jesus said, "And I say unto thee (referring to Peter), that thou art Peter (petro or stone or rock), and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

In Acts 15:7 Peter said, " ...Men and brethren, ye know how that a good whil e ago God made choice (or selected) among us, that the Gentiles (or we the people who are not Jews) by my mouth (or thru his preaching) should hear the word of the gospel, and believe."

In verse 9 & 11, he continues, " And put no difference between us (Jews) and them (Gentiles), purifying their hearts by faith ... But we believe that thru the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."

If we read the whole of Acts 15, those words of Peter were made to clear up matters in which some of the members of the church (newly converted Pharisees) want to include the law of Moses in order to be saved.

Prior to this event or dispute, Apostle Paul and Barnabas had been preaching to the Gentiles the salvation of souls thru faith in Jesus Christ . In Acts 14:27 it says, "... and how He (God) had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles." Also in Acts 13:39 it says " And by Him (Jesus Christ) all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses."

In the midst of the debate, Apostle Peter, whom Jesus Christ had first chosen to preach the gospel to the Gentiles, stood up and confirmed the teaching of Apostle Paul that indeed salvation is by grace thru faith in Jesus Christ which is made possible thru the enlightening of the Holy Spirit. In the eyes of God, nobody can satisfactorily follow the "unveiled" law of Moses unless dwelt upon by the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ. One of the "veiled" law of Moses is circumcision of the foreskin but its true or unveiled meaning is that of the "circumcision of the heart" or being "born-again" in other words (Romans 2:29).

It was taught upon the Catholic people that their church was started by Peter. Many believe it and for this reason many choose to stand by this church and defend "what Peter had started".

But in reality, the Catholic Church has been a fierce enemy to the doctrine propagated by Peter, Paul, the other Apostles and of Jesus Christ. When Martin Luther (a former priest) floated the idea of "justification by faith", which the apostles especially Peter and Paul had long ago preached to the Gentiles, all hell broke loose and it caused many terrible wars and massacres done by the church just to suppress that doctrine. If Peter and Paul were present during those time when Catholicism was at its peak of power and had they changed their names to avoid recognition, they too could have been burned at the stake also for preaching "justification by faith".

Despite the tremendous power of the Roman Catholic Church during that time, it didn't succeed to extinguish that holy doctrine coz as what Jesus Christ had said, " the gates of hell shall not prevail against it ". As what Martin Luther had said, "the body they may kill : but God's truth abideth still". And true enough it still abides today and even gave birth to a great nation (In God We Trust) and it will continue to abide even to the end of time. [ But this nation will suffer or be punished because of the foolishness (rising atheism, sexual promiscuity, gay marriage, garbage music, TV programs & movies centered on sex) which some or many of its people, who are ignorant of that holy doctrine, are promoting. With Catholicism, liberal Protestantism, atheism and other false religions slowly "invading" it, God won't spare parts of that nation to feel the brunt of His anger.]

For a very long time upto now, the salvation doctrine of Catholicism has been the sacraments like infant baptism, confession to the priests and penance, holy communion, confirmation, etc. Some even consider the role of Mary in their salvation plan. It just couldn't stop of thinking what really could save a person coz in reality, they really don't know and that explains why they have so many ways.

Justification by faith was never a part of their salvation doctrine and anybody who espoused that idea during those dark centuries were properly dealt with.

It must be noted that no Apostle ever performed infant baptism; no Apostle had a confession booth and gave penance; no Apostle performed the holy communion for the salvation of souls and neither was "confirmation" used by them. Also, no Apostle prayed to Mary for intercession to God. Whatever Catholicism has been teaching their flock like lighting candles, praying the rosary, praying to the saints, reciting prayer books, getting their properties blessed with "holy water", no Apostle ever did those things coz they are just purely Catholicism's own inventions. And as always, man's inventions especially if it pertains to godliness always fall short with God's standards. No person can ever make his own way to Heaven. It's either God's way or no way.

Catholicism was not the church Jesus Christ built in which Peter and the rest of the Apostles was tasked to propagate. On the contrary it is the church which persecuted and tried to destroy God's true church.

Jesus Christ had said, "upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." This said church is already present with us and its not Catholicism, nor liberal Protestantism, nor Judaism, nor Islam, nor Hinduism, nor Taoism, nor Buddhism nor any other big or small religion that may name Christ but has other ways of salvation other than the simple faith in Jesus Christ which He personally gives to whoever He sees fit to receive it.