It seems that it's all right to talk about faith in political campaigns if you're talking about faith in some supreme being (who is not running for the presidency) but it's not all right to talk about faith in ourselves and in the future of our country, as Obama often does.
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"I think it is true that many young people have a visceral emotional response to the promise of hope and change that Obama seems to embody, but that is a far cry from religious worship."
------------------------------------------------------------
No, it isn't. That "visceral emotional response" is definitely religious.
I'm curious just exactly what you think of as "religious".
March 5, 2008 8:53 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 5, 2008 20:53
Susan, two comments:
“The idea that there is some sort of natural antipathy between thought and action is a powerful one in the history of American anti-intellectualism. . . .”
I believe GWB is good evidence of the existing intellectual position that competent people do not have to think. Anybody who thinks is obviously trying too hard, which shows they are not competent. GWB takes this position not because he has thought it out, but because he is shrewd. He knows the people in his class take this position and he very much wants to be important to his class.
“He might even be--horrors!--an "elitist."”
Republicans do not have faults. Nor does any country they may be running. Critical thinking, to them, identifies their enemies. So people who are absolutely convinced of their deserved privileged status find critics unbearably “uppity,” i.e., “elitist.” This is the way Republicans think.
You may think I am hard on Republicans, but I would love to have them prove me wrong. Of course, they have weird criteria for proof. All they have to do is say something, and it is true.
February 27, 2008 4:16 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 27, 2008 16:16
After more than 2 decades of Bush’s and Clintons at the White House Americans are ready for something new. Obama is in the right place at the right time that is hard for Clinton to overcome.
What was that flap early on about Obama refusing the Pledge of Allegiance or something, did he explain himself there?
February 25, 2008 9:10 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 25, 2008 21:10
Candy wrote:
"It is no doubt that Obama has not substance to his speeches and yet, he has a following that seemes magical at best. His cousin in Kenya had the same following and when he did not win the election, his followers took to the street and killed many people. I can almost see the same thing happening here in America and this would not be pretty."
I think it is disgraceful that any American would imagine that our fellow citizens might go on a rampage and kill people over the outcome of an election. That hasn't happened often since 1860.
Perhaps if Obama were an extremist candidate from a party that advocates violence, one might fear that, but he is an all-American, peaceful, mainstream candidate who attracts idealistic and well-educated voters. His supporters are the last people on earth who would riot or kill.
Candy lacks the kind of civic faith in Democracy I described above -- the sense that you can trust other Americans as a group to do what is best. This faith may be somewhat unwarranted, because after all, Americans started the Civil War and have made many mistakes. But still, it is deeply disturbing to me that anyone has such little faith in our Constitution and our citizens that she imagines they will resort to bloodshed and mayhem so easily, and also -- as Obama himself rightly said -- that they can be easily "duped" by him. Do you really believe that millions of well-educated, well informed voters have been turned into Zombies incapable of rational analysis?
You may have noticed that Obama does not resemble George Wallace at his worst. His speeches are NOT appeals to irrational hate, mayhem or racial or religious intolerance -- or anything else that might incite violence. On the contrary, they sound like lectures given by a talented professor in Constitutional Law and someone you might pick to edit the Harvard Law Review -- because that is exactly what Obama is! He is a member of the Ivy League tribe, along with FDR and JFK. He does not pretend to be anything else. He is refreshing because he does not hide his roots, or pretend to be an awe-shucks "down-home" folksy guy, or pretend that he likes to shoot animals, or any of the other sickening stereotypes that so many American politicians embrace.
February 25, 2008 5:08 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 25, 2008 17:08
If you read most response in this forum, you will see that majority are for Obama and against Senator Clinton. Again, they are taken in the magical voodoo air. This is the same spirit or illution that sent many to Guiyana with Jim Jones and they all died for what they believed to be the truth.
I feel sorry for the majority in America today because they have no idea what is coming their way. Sen. Clinton is realistic, she knows what she is talking about and has solid solution to the problems facing America today.
However, I do realize that Obama supporters will not listen and change, but we will all reap the down side of this blind following.
February 25, 2008 12:45 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 25, 2008 12:45
"It is a not-so-subtle attempt to imply that Obama enthusiasts are somehow taken in by a mindless worship of their candidate. I think it is true that many young people have a visceral emotional response to the promise of hope and change that Obama seems to embody, but that is a far cry from religious worship".
It is no doubt that Obama has not substance to his speeches and yet, he has a following that seemes magical at best. His cousin in Kenya had the same following and when he did not win the election, his followers took to the street and killed many people. I can almost see the same thing happening here in America and this would not be pretty. Voodoo is hypnotising the those that are caught in it cannot control their actions and support. If you pay attention to the media, they are taken up. Everything that Sen. Clinton says is twisted and made to reflect negativity, but Obama is the saint.
Obama has the media and the mass in his hand, and it is not for the good. Just wait until November if this mania is not snubbed.
February 25, 2008 12:39 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 25, 2008 12:39
Wiccan: Greetings and Merry Meet!
No, I am not of the Ásatrúar. I am agnostic, though I do find myself interested in a variety of religious expressions. 'Thor's Child' fits me in a variety of ways, from general Norse ancestry, to multiple specific ancestors whose names began with Thor, or Tor, to early comic book reading, and a more recent interest in the Eddas.
The trouble with the word 'faith' is that in addition to 'confidence,' it has come to mean something people can own, people cannot change, and that people must defend. Those who question that faith are perceived as attackers, regardless of their actual intent.
CCNL, I suspect the reason you have had no responses is that religious folks have no interest in engaging with someone who pretty obviously will just attack their faith. Honestly, if you saw a poster who obviously would just attack your position, by repeating that you are damned, will not be saved, go to hell, etc. etc. (Canyon comes to mind) would you think twice before engaging in conversation with them? If you've been trying to get a response with no takers for over a year, perhaps it is time for a different tactic. (It would also spare the rest of us from extra scrolling.)
P.S. Dad keeps all his hammers in the shed out back... now you just have to find the shed to get Mjolnir for your smiting binge. Remember, berserker rages tend to leave one very tired after, so plan a vacation day for recovery ahead of time. ;)
February 25, 2008 11:08 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 25, 2008 11:08
In my above post in the end I was bit sarcastic with the usual Devils.
The above mentioned links also address the topic under discussion.
February 23, 2008 9:10 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 23, 2008 09:10
All possible kind of questions asked by non Muslims about Islam answered on below web sites:
ALL MISCONCEPTIONS AND FALSE MEANINGS ARE ANSWERED:
1-www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm (on this site you will get all answers about Islam, CHRISTIANITY, JESUS, JUDAISM , ETHEISIM, HINDUISM and all other religions).
2-www.islamalways.com/
3-www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/
4-www.jamaat.net/deedat.htm
5-www.islamtomorrow.com/yusuf.asp
6-www.justaskislam.com/index.php (on this site you will get answer of every question you have and asked, with in a day or by next day - IT’S A CHALLENGE !!!)
Antitoxin from yellow slimy diseased filthy homo brains…CCNL…severe USA BUSHY madness…etc.
February 23, 2008 9:02 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 23, 2008 09:02
I don't have faith, I have the experience of living this life that I base my judgements on.
Vote Nader
http://www.naderexplore08.org/?gclid=CIXVsr-v2pECFQEelgod6UtHeg
February 23, 2008 8:05 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 23, 2008 08:05
Politicians… Its never quite as good or so bad as they make it out to be. Once elected, those sincere campaign promises run head-on into reality and … then we do it all over again.
"How is faith in religion different from hope in politics?
Faith in religion … No, its faith in God.
Hope in politics … I don’t just vote for a candidate, I cast my hope on them.
Christian hope … Is Reality not yet Realized.
February 22, 2008 9:11 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 22, 2008 21:11
Where's Mjolnir when you need it? :-)
February 22, 2008 8:36 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 22, 2008 20:36
"Nearly all religions have died. Ancient Greek, Aztec, Roman and Norse religions are dead -- not a single person believes in them."
Well, I can't speak for the Aztecs, but I know plenty of Norse Reconstructionists, as well as some Greek and Roman ones.
Somebody needs a smiting... ;)
February 22, 2008 8:26 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 22, 2008 20:26
S C Cromett and Me, Me, Me,
The flaws in Christianity are repeated for two reasons 1) to thump them like the bible has been thumped for the last 2000 years. So complain 1999 years from now.
2) Not one Christian has countered these basic flaws after almost a year of repetition. Since this validates these flaws, why is any Christian, i.e Obama, still a Christian?????????
And yes there are analogous flaws for Judaism, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism so why "pray tell" don't these followers wise up and join the realm of reality??????
February 22, 2008 8:17 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 22, 2008 20:17
Faith and Hope. Two words with similar meaning but different level of certainty, as some examples in this thread have shown.
But words also change meaning depending of the context. Most people will understand when a religious person, talking about religion, says:
“Respect my faith”
“Faith saves”
“You do not have faith”
“If you do not have faith you will go to hell for the eternity”
In this context, “you do not have faith” clearly means you do not believe in my god and in the promises that god made to us through his books or other sort of revelations.
On the other hand, when a person says you do not have faith in my candidate, he or she does not imply that we doubt in the existence of his/her candidate, only that we do not believe in the promises of that candidate. Fortunately the political candidate has no power to send us to hell for the eternity, although he may put us to live in a hell for a while.
Best wishes to all.
JAC
February 22, 2008 7:47 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 22, 2008 19:47
Faith and Hope. Two words with similar meaning but different level of certainty, as some examples in this thread have shown.
But words also change meaning depending of the context where used. Most people will understand when a religious person, talking about religion, says:
“Respect my faith”
“Faith saves”
“You do not have faith”
“If you do not have faith you will go to hell for the eternity”
In this context, “you do not have faith” clearly means you do not believe in my god and in the promises that god made to us through his books or other sort of revelations.
On the other hand, when a person says you do not have faith in my candidate, he or she does not imply that we doubt in the existence of his/her candidate, only that we do not believe in the promises of that candidate. Fortunately the political candidate has no power to send us to hell for the eternity, although we may put us to live in a hell for a while.
Best wishes to all.
JAC
February 22, 2008 7:45 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 22, 2008 19:45
Whose talking about social security? And I like something more than your say so to that effect. By the way When SS came in we were in the midst of the great depression largely lengthened and made worse by the New Deal.
Terra of Our 3 trillion dollar budget 20% is military, 15% pork and the remainder is social programs of one sort or the other.
February 22, 2008 7:19 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 22, 2008 19:19
Susan Jacoby wrote:
"It just astonishes me that the difference between hope and faith is so difficult for many people on this thread to understand."
Well, I think the two sometimes blur together. I think most old-fashioned Americans such as me, for example, have a lot of "faith" in democracy. That is to say, we have an untested and perhaps unwarranted feeling that things will work out and that our fellow citizens are decent people who, as group, will make wise decisions. We feel this way despite past catastrophes such as the Civil War. We also have faith that during a crisis, strong capable leaders will emerge -- people like Lincoln and FDR. They did in the past, but that is no guarantee they will again.
That is a kind of faith, albeit one that is on firmer ground than religious faith.
A happily married husband will have faith that his wife is not cheating on him. That is "faith" in the sense that he has no proof she isn't, and she has opportunity; i.e. he doesn't have her under 24 hour camera surveillance. Faith is the assumption that things will go well even though there is no assurance or proof that they will, and even though there is a significant likelihood that they will go badly. Wives often do cheat, even in happy marriages, so it is somewhat irrational to be sanguine. But a well adjusted, sane husband allows himself to be irrationally sanguine.
All of us have a measure of irrational faith in various things such as automobiles, and we couldn't function without it. A perfectly sane person who understands risks and knows what happens in high speed collisions would not be able to drive on Atlanta's highways, where every day you see drivers eating, watching television or apply cosmetics while driving at 80 mph in a 55 mph zone. You have to be a little crazy to drive here! You must trust in other drivers including many who clearly do not deserve your trust.
- Jed
February 22, 2008 5:57 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 22, 2008 17:57
Jihadist writes:
.........and where is my favourite anti-theist atheist, Mr. Mark, on "hope" and "faith"?"
Mr Mark has recently started a new job and needs to limit his time on this blog to after-work hours. And, as Mr Mark is spending a lot of time driving to and fro and doesn't own a laptop and is away from his residence and his desktop computer, his time to visit any blog is pretty restricted.
You'll just have to play without me for the time being. :)
That said, my thoughts on hope and faith are...oops, gotta go!
February 22, 2008 5:57 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 22, 2008 17:57
Greetings, Thor's Child. Are you of the Ásatrúar?
February 22, 2008 5:37 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 22, 2008 17:37
Concerned The Christian Now Liberated
Even though in many ways I agree with you, your repetition of the same points is enough to make ME want to turn religious just to spite you