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DwYn5Y U cool ))

DwYn5Y U cool ))

DwYn5Y U cool ))

Susan: I saw your interview on Bill Moyer's show Friday night and was thrilled by how well you captured my feelings about the dumbing down of America. I grew up down the road from you in Okemos although we moved in separate circles. Your family was Catholic while mine was essentially secular humanist, although we never used the term. I pursued religion as an autodidact through my adolescence, trying out how I felt as a Christian Scientist, a Southern Baptist, a Quaker, and a Jew, but ended up pretty much where you seem to be today. I am not hostile to religion or religious thinkers -- my greatest moral teacher was Martin Luther King and I think of Bill Moyers as my pastoral teacher these days – but I do believe religion has caused more harm than good in our country in recent decades. How fascinating that we should start and end in such similar places. Please keep up the good fight.

great article. Secularism and science have become taboos in the past two decades and it's ruining this country. Secularist need to stand up for the constitution and stand up as patriots and beat back the theocrats vigorously on every level. If the religious right get their way they will ruin this country and ruin this world...they've already started.

TO GERRY:

You wrote, "Don't you ever have doubts, like the other Thomas,".

The other Thomas, also referred to as Doubting Thomas that you mentioned, after He voiced his doubts and Jesus also appeared to Him said in reply, "My Lord and My God" which is saying a whole lot more than calling Jesus the "Christ" which is a title.

People were expecting a Messiah or Christ to come [one being the Hebrew version, the other being the Greek version meaning the same thing] but who would have ever expected for God, Himself, to become one of us?

If you notice most if not all of the apostles doubted until Jesus appeared to them when Thomas was not present.

Did you ever wonder why Thomas is referred to as doubting and not the others?

Doubt can be a good thing and if you take an honest doubt to God with a open heart you may be surprised that God welcomes an honest doubt.

Take care, be ready, see you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

For History:

Is this what you think has been censored? I don't get your point. They don't seem to censor anything, except maybe some "bad" word, but even if they did, so what? It's their website; the Constitution does not mention anything about censoring your own stuff.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2008/02/a_very_undead_christian_right.html

For History:

Is this what you think has been censored? I don't get your point. They don't seem to censor anything, except maybe some "bad" words, but even if they did, so what? It's their website; the Constitution does not mention anything about censoring your own stuff.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2008/02/a_very_undead_christian_right.html

some have said "Is Evil The Devil or Just Live Spelled Backwards?"

David wrote "Ye that love the Lord, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked."

Solomon wrote "The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate."

Solomon also wrote,
"These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:"

It is written in Genesis

And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt. If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.

And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.

Do you see "seven are an abomination unto him:"
"vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold" "If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold" This is what is written in Matthew "Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation." "Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven."

This is what your god said "Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven." "And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice;"

Love thy Father "Ye that love the Lord, hate evil"
Fear thy Mother "The fear of the Lord is to hate evil"

"Is Evil The Devil" Ask yourself, are you the children of evil or the Devil.

The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord saying, Hear ye the words of this covenant, and speak unto the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem; And say thou unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel; Cursed be the man that obeyeth not the words of this covenant, Which I commanded your fathers in the day that I brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, from the iron furnace, saying, Obey my voice, and do them, according to all which I command you: so shall ye be my people, and I will be your God: That I may perform the oath which I have sworn unto your fathers, to give them a land flowing with milk and honey, as it is this day. Then answered I, and said, So be it, O Lord. Then the Lord said unto me, Proclaim all these words in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, saying, Hear ye the words of this covenant, and do them. For I earnestly protested unto your fathers in the day that I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, even unto this day, rising early and protesting, saying, Obey my voice.

Look at the Words of Jeremiah “Obey my voice, and do them, according to all which I command you: so shall ye be my people” “to give them a land flowing with milk and honey” Rmember what Jeremiah said “The word of the Lord which came to Jeremiah the prophet against the Gentiles;” He prophesied “The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant.”

And he said unto her, Give me, I pray thee, a little water to drink; for I am thirsty. And she opened a bottle of milk, and gave him drink, and covered him. Again he said unto her, Stand in the door of the tent, and it shall be, when any man doth come and inquire of thee, and say, Is there any man here? that thou shalt say, No. Then Jael Heber's wife took a nail of the tent, and took an hammer in her hand, and went softly unto him, and smote the nail into his temples, and fastened it into the ground: for he was fast asleep and weary. So he died. And, behold, as Barak pursued Sisera, Jael came out to meet him, and said unto him, Come, and I will shew thee the man whom thou seekest. And when he came into her tent, behold, Sisera lay dead, and the nail was in his temples. So God subdued on that day Jabin the king of Canaan before the children of Israel. And the hand of the children of Israel prospered, and prevailed against Jabin the king of Canaan, until they had destroyed Jabin king of Canaan.

Look “she opened a bottle of milk, and gave him drink, and covered him” “took a nail of the tent, and took an hammer in her hand, and went softly unto him, and smote the nail into his temples, and fastened it into the ground: for he was fast asleep and weary.” Do you see “Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.”

Moreover the Hebrews that were with the Philistines before that time, which went up with them into the camp from the country round about, even they also turned to be with the Israelites that were with Saul and Jonathan. Likewise all the men of Israel which had hid themselves in mount Ephraim, when they heard that the Philistines fled, even they also followed hard after them in the battle. So the Lord saved Israel that day: and the battle passed over unto Bethaven. And the men of Israel were distressed that day: for Saul had adjured the people, saying, Cursed be the man that eateth any food until evening, that I may be avenged on mine enemies. So none of the people tasted any food. And all they of the land came to a wood; and there was honey upon the ground. And when the people were come into the wood, behold, the honey dropped; but no man put his hand to his mouth: for the people feared the oath. But Jonathan heard not when his father charged the people with the oath: wherefore he put forth the end of the rod that was in his hand, and dipped it in an honeycomb, and put his hand to his mouth; and his eyes were enlightened. Then answered one of the people, and said, Thy father straitly charged the people with an oath, saying, Cursed be the man that eateth any food this day. And the people were faint. Then said Jonathan, My father hath troubled the land: see, I pray you, how mine eyes have been enlightened, because I tasted a little of this honey.

Look at the Words of Saul “Cursed be the man that eateth any food until evening, that I may be avenged on mine enemies.” Do you see “come into the wood, behold, the honey dropped” Look “he put forth the end of the rod that was in his hand, and dipped it in an honeycomb, and put his hand to his mouth; and his eyes were enlightened.” the Words of Jeremiah “Obey my voice, and do them, according to all which I command you: so shall ye be my people” “to give them a land flowing with milk and honey” Look “Saul and Jonathan were lovely and pleasant in their lives, and in their death they were not divided: they were swifter than eagles, they were stronger than lions.” Do you not understand “in their death they were not divided”

Now look at the words of Paul/Saul to the Corinthians, “I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.” “What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?” He said to the Romans “According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear” Look “smote the nail into his temples, and fastened it into the ground: for he was fast asleep and weary” “behold, the honey dropped” “he put forth the end of the rod that was in his hand” Do you see “in their death they were not divided” “I have fed you with milk” “shall I come unto you with a rod” “Cursed be the man that eateth any food until evening, that I may be avenged on mine enemies.” Do you see “I pray you, how mine eyes have been enlightened, because I tasted a little of this honey.”

“Obey my voice, and do them, according to all which I command you: so shall ye be my people” “to give them a land flowing with milk and honey” “they were not divided: they were swifter than eagles, they were stronger than lions.” “The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way”

And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

“first beast was like a lion” “The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way”

Behold, he is hid now in some pit, or in some other place: and it will come to pass, when some of them be overthrown at the first, that whosoever heareth it will say, There is a slaughter among the people that follow Absalom.
Then said Joab, I may not tarry thus with thee. And he took three darts in his hand, and thrust them through the heart of Absalom, while he was yet alive in the midst of the oak.

Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness. And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed. For they shall be ashamed of the oaks which ye have desired, and ye shall be confounded for the gardens that ye have chosen. For ye shall be as an oak whose leaf fadeth, and as a garden that hath no water.

“Absalom, while he was yet alive in the midst of the oak” “For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.” “the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed. For they shall be ashamed of the oaks which ye have desired” “There is a slaughter among the people that follow Absalom”

“the second beast like a calf”
Look “she opened a bottle of milk, and gave him drink, and covered him” “took a nail of the tent, and took an hammer in her hand, and went softly unto him, and smote the nail into his temples, and fastened it into the ground: for he was fast asleep and weary.”

“I have fed you with milk” “he put forth the end of the rod that was in his hand”

“the third beast had a face as a man”
And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
And Pharaoh said unto him, Get thee from me, take heed to thyself, see my face no more; for in that day thou seest my face thou shalt die.
Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God's: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it.

“for in that day thou seest my face thou shalt die.” “ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God's” “I have made thee a god to Pharaoh”

“the fourth beast was like a flying eagle”
Herod the Great built Caesarea for Caesar. Jews did not consider Herod to be a true Jew. The Idumaean family, successors to the Edomites of the Hebrew Bible, settled in Idumea, formerly known as Edom, in southern Judea.

Early Christian mentions of Caesarea in the apostolic period follow the acts of Peter who established the church there when he baptized Cornelius the Centurion.

And David commanded to gather together the strangers that were in the land of Israel; and he set masons to hew wrought stones to build the house of God.
And David prepared iron in abundance for the nails for the doors of the gates, and for the joinings; and brass in abundance without weight;

“nails for the doors of the gates” “Peter who established the church there when he baptized Cornelius the Centurion”

The Apostle Paul often sojourned there, and was imprisoned at Caesarea for two years before being taken to Rome.

And the Lord sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed.
Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.

“the Lord sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners” “I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you”

Dear Thomas,

you say "I cannot prove that God is real" and then continue "but..." etc. etc. stating all the rest of your contentions as if they were proved facts.

Don't you ever have doubts, like the other Thomas, about what you love to consider as reality? Doubting is the precondition to development.

ARMINIUS,
or whatever:

NO, if you go to the jacobey archives you note, you will NOT find the screed about conversatives.

That's the whole point. It's the one WAPO had a headline for yesterday. Yesterday.

It has disappeared. But you know, it's not worth
talkng about such here. ON FAITH is a complete fraud. And everything else goes the way of GANDHI.

For truth in adversiting, needs an Israeli flag.

ARMINIUS,
or whatever:

NO, if you go to the jacobey archives you note, you will NOT find the screed about conversatives.

That's the whole point. It's the one WAPO had a headline for yesterday. Yesterday.

It has disappeared. But you know, it's not worth
taling about such here. ON FAITH is a complete fraud. And everything else goes the way of GANDHI.

For truth in adversiting, needs an Israeli flag.

TO GERRY:

You wrote, "Believers always think, as you (and I, formerly) that they have an advantage over non-believers. They don't have to prove anything. A huge advantage! Saves a lot of thinking.", doesn't this sound a lot like what some so-called 'non-believers' also say.

What I mean by that is people like to lump others together whereas we are all individual people.

Granted, I don't have to prove anything but what is it that you or anyone else have to prove?

I read a quote on one of the postings and it said, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence", something to think about.

I cannot prove that God is real but one day all will know that He is real.

God is a Trinity and He is Pure Love and as I have said before God is not a He, a She or an it even tho God-Incarnate was a Man, a Jewish Man.

As far as 'saves a lot of thinking' that sure does sound kind of condecending doesn't it considering that there are plenty of 'believers and non-believers alike' that let others do their thinking for them.

I happened to have met God and I will tell you that plenty of people that call themselves 'christian' know nothing about God except for His Name at least by what they speak or write.

God has a Plan and His Plan is for ALL of His people, humanity, to be with Him in His Kingdom one day.

Take care, be ready, see you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Rachel,

thanks for you comment.

1. I know very well what it is like to be a believer. I was one, fervent. All life is development.

2. Believers always think, as you (and I, formerly) that they have an advantage over non-believers. They don't have to prove anything. A huge advantage! Saves a lot of thinking.

Gerry,

This response won't be long as I'm sitting in class right now and ought to be paying attention, and it will probably be my last response.

Faith is indeed all in the believer's head. How could it be otherwise? I want you to know that my faith has been and is scrutinized. I've felt the vertigo of those questions that don't have answers, I've explored the texture of a life where the divine is only man made. Believe me, I know what that feels like.

Gerry, to be perfectly honest, I feel like I have to advantage over you - I know what it's like to not have faith, but I don't know if the unbeliever could really understand the position of the believer. Perhaps this is hubris - it very well may be. But anyway, imagine the position of the believer. And if you find it unimaginable, then I remind you of your words: "Atheists, thus, are much more spiritual and modest and imaginative in front of the unimaginable"

Thanks for another glimpse into what it means to not believe. I feel like I've learned.

Dear CTCNL -

I took a look at your Wiki link, and it's a basic outline, not much more.

For instance, when discussing the mentions in Josephus of Jesus, the Wiki article notes that reasons to question the authenticity of the TF entry deal with stylistic points that suggest a later insertion. However, an equally compelling piece of evidence that this is a later addition is the fact that there is no mention of Jesus in the Table of Contents to Josepheus' "The Jewish Wars." As ancient histories went out of their way to list historic characters in the ToC, Jesus' absence in The Jewish Wars ToC is glaring.

This and more is covered in the RG Price site, but not in the Wiki entry.

TO HAROLD:

The pharisees of Jesus's day also were able to spew out the letter of the law, but was any of the spirit of the law in their hearts?

It was to them, that Jesus said a few things.

Have you ever noticed that this computer also knows the bible from cover to cover but does it have a heart, does it have feelings, does it care?

God made all of us, that makes all of us brothers and sisters, like it or not, so we are all in this together.

One of the things that I have noticed is that the bible can help lead someone to God but in many cases it just seems to reenforce some people's shortcomings.

We all have shortcomings.

Christianity is part of God's Plan, just like God choosing and forming the Jews is Part of God's Plan and God's Plan is unfolding as we speak and The Plan of The True, Living, Triune, Triumphant God will come to Fruition.

God's Plan is for All.

We are all made in God's Image [LOVE].

I repeat: God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof.

As I have also said before, God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable.

Take care, be ready, night is coming but the dawning of the seventh day will surely arrive in God's Time.

See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Rachel,

you say:
"But the paradigm of the believer is that God reveals himself to the sincere and desirous believer. The paradigm of the believer is that God communicates, and thus makes himself knowable."

Of course, I completely agree. That is at the bottom of all: If you believe something intensely and long enough, (and from childhood early enough!) you end up regarding ANYTHING as a fact, of course. You are unable, then, to ask open questions which, maybe, have a completely unexpected answer or nor answer at all. So you substitute what has become your "fact". That is what I meant by lack of imagination.

The lack of imagination does not refer to anything resembling Harry Potter, but to the fact that you cannot imagine the limits of your imagination. You substitute your "facts", where there are imaginations thus acquired by "believing".

It's all in your head.

Just look at Harold cuffing Thomas around with all of his Bible quotes. See? It is just as I said; many Christians reserve their most severe scorn for each other. "Love thy neighbor?" They do not even love each other.

Just what all that was about, I could not even guess.

Mr Mark,

The Wikipedia review on the mythical/ non-mythical Jesus is actually easier to read than the RG Price one-sided article and as I noted has more references.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_myth_hypothesis

The Table of Contents,

1 History of the hypothesis
2 Early proponents
3 Recent proponents
4 Specific arguments of the hypothesis
4.1 Early non-Christian references to Jesus
4.1.1 Earliest recorded references
4.1.2 Apparent omissions in early records
4.2 The New Testament epistles
4.3 The influence of the Old Testament
4.4 Parallels with Mediterranean mystery religions
4.5 Historiography and methodology
5 Scholarly response
5.1 Specific criticisms
6 See also
7 Footnotes
8 Further reading
8.1 Supporting a Jesus-Myth theory
8.2 Supporting a historical Jesus
9 External links
9.1 Supporting a Jesus-Myth theory
9.2 Supporting a historical Jesus

ARMINIUS AND SCOTS AT LARGE:

It takes a real man to eat haggis, and a lot of scotch to get it down.

Congratulations on your nephew's placing second in the bagpipe contest.

I was just teasing about the pipes. They certainly martial the warrior spirit, and raise the spirits to new heights. Seen the movie "Amazing Grace?" The closing military tattoo makes the whole experience exhilarating. I love going to Highland games and watching manly men toss telephone poles and boulders about. I suppose you already know that the games are the result of England forbidding Scots to have weapons. Man, were those Brits surprised.

*****************************************

Some atheists and agnostics on these posts seem to want it both ways. First, they say God is a myth and the Bible is fiction, and then they say believers have no imagination.

For sake of argument, let's assume the Bible is fiction. That in and of itself kills the notion of a lack of imagination. Look what Cecil B. DeMille did with "The Ten Commandments."

Samson predated Tarzan by millenia, killing a lion by ripping its jaws apart (Kreega Bundulo, Tarzan kills!) He killed a thousand Philistines with the jawbone of an ass, smiting them hip and thigh. What special effects could do with that scene! Samson also predated Superman, and was the original supermensch.

Ezekiel the prophet saw a vehicle descend from heaven that puts flying saucers to shame. It had wheels that were awesome in height, with eyes before and behind. It was propelled by four living creatures with four faces and six wings...aw, go read it and tell me that lacks imagination. Oh, and let's not forget Elisha being carried up to heaven in a flaming chariot (space ship?).

Noah packed all the animals two by two into an ark that had the perfect ratio still employed by ship builders today, six times longer than wide. The only way he could get all those animals into the ark of specific dimension, was 1.) they were shrunk up to little miniatures that fit on a shelf or 2.) the Ark was a Tardis, long before Dr. Who had one. However he did it, the story certainly doesn't lack for imagination.

Dead men's bones rose from the earth and reconstituted into living men long before the first zombie stories were written.

A shower of boulders (meteors?) thrown down from heaven by God wipes out an army, and one angel kills 185,000 men in one night.

The witch of Endor could conjur up familiar spirits from the dead.

A flaming hand suddenly appears out of the void and writes on a stone wall.

Angels of all sorts -- archangels, seraphim, cherubim...

The earth opens up and swallows a huge crowd whole, along with all their possessions and livestock.

Prophets prophesying future events long before Nostradamus, Edgar Cayce or Jean Dixon.

A man is swallowed whole by a whale and lives after three days in its belly.

The book of Esther, the only book in the Bible that never once mentions God, rivals any story of romance and palace intrigue.

The story of Ruth and Naomi is a wonderful love story.

In all the world, there is no story of any man like the story of Jesus.

Ya got yer basic dragons, and four horsemen of the apocalypse, and warriors with teeth like lions riding horses with snakes for tails that sting like scorpions, and angels without number, and the wholesale destruction of man and the earth in a flaming finale.

Et cetera ad infinitum. You might not believe the Biblical stories because they are too incredible, but it can not be honestly said that they lack imagination.

As an unbeliever in college, I studied the Bible as literature, and it is at least as entertaining as any other piece of literature.

Thomas “so-called Moses” Baum said “Knowing God's Name is not some kind of magic ticket that some seem to think that it is.”

I will praise the Lord according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the Lord most high.
O Lord, our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, Lord, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.
I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
Give unto the Lord the glory due unto his name; worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness.

These are the Words of David , “I will praise the Lord” “sing praise to the name of the Lord most high.” Look “ how excellent is thy name in all the earth” “ who hast set thy glory above the heavens” That is the Spirit of the LORD which rises from Earth to Heaven. “These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord made the earth and the heavens,” Do you not see “in the day that the Lord made the earth and the heavens,” What does David say, “And they that know thy name” “ I will declare thy name unto my brethren” Do you not understand “Give unto the Lord the glory” “worship the Lord “

If we have forgotten the name of our God, or stretched out our hands to a strange God;
Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart.
Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.

Look at the teachings of David “If we have forgotten the name of our God,” What is the name of the God of David. The Words are clear “ he knoweth the secrets of the heart” I ask you wise men, where is the heart of Moses. The prophecy was fulfilled “ for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter” Paul wrote “As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”

I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever.

David said “I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations” Does anybody other than Harold know the Name of the LORD. The Hand of the LORD wrote “Pour out thy wrath upon the heathen that have not known thee, and upon the kingdoms that have not called upon thy name.”

Remember this, that the enemy hath reproached, O Lord, and that the foolish people have blasphemed thy name.

I ask you wise creatures “that the enemy hath reproached” Who was the enemy of Israel at the time of the gospels and NT. “the foolish people have blasphemed thy name” Paul wrote in Romans “Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,”

Their sorrows shall be multiplied that hasten after another god: their drink offerings of blood will I not offer, nor take up their names into my lips.
Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.

David wrote “Their sorrows shall be multiplied that hasten after another god: their drink offerings of blood will I not offer” Who drinks the blood of the son of man, their own blood. You believe the son of man is lord of the sabbath. Do you see “Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.” Your father “ heathen”, his sons “the wicked” your gods spirit “thou hast put out their name for ever and ever”

David wrote, “In Judah is God known: his name is great in Israel.” The name is Moses, the name of the LORD is JUDAH. “And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.” Look “And Moses said unto the Lord, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.” The Name of the LORD is JUDAH, The LORD knows the name of MOSES “ Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name”

And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.

Look at what the LORD said to MOSES, “And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up” “that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.” Right from the beginning “he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.” “In Judah is God known: his name is great in Israel.”

To Thomas “so-called Moses” Baum, “Remember this, that the enemy hath reproached, O Lord, and that the foolish people have blasphemed thy name.” “Pour out thy wrath upon the heathen that have not known thee, and upon the kingdoms that have not called upon thy name.” “Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.”

This is the God you worship, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.” This is the spirit that goes downward, Solomon wrote “Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?” Do you see “the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth” “God created the heaven and the earth.” David said “Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart.” Solomon's judgment “I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.”

My Words are clear “ the sons of men” “are beasts” “the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth” “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.” Thomas “so-called Moses” Baum, you are a heathen sinner creature.

Solomon wrote “Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward” “in the day that the Lord made the earth and the heavens,”
“he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.” “ Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name”

Moses wrote “Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.” “Because I will publish the name of the Lord” Who does Moses say give an ear heaven and earth, the spirit that goes downward, “I will speak”

Dear CTCNL -

I reference the RG Price site because it is written in a very accessible style, and while he doesn't necessarily present an original point of view, he has a good handle on how to boil down the more-extensive arguments of others and to make sense of them in a short space. In addition, he presents both sides of most arguments and - most importantly - he provides hyperlinks to other, more-noted authors, publications and credential-laden sources. Many of these hyperlinks appear in the body of his articles, rather than in the listing of source books given at the end of the articles. I find this very useful in being able to check his source and not just take his word for it.

I don't know anything more about the author than what you have found. Having said that, he certainly makes more sense to me in his uncredentialed way than do many of the highly credentialed columnists that post at On Faith.

Mr Mark,

You may have noted this information in the past but I have not seen it so please copy and paste it again i.e. who is RG Price??

I always like to check the background of the authors of referenced information. Your favorite web reference, Jesus Myth - The Case Against Historical Christ, http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_history.htm, was written by one RG Price. I can find very little information about Price other than he published his own book, Jesus, the Very Jewish Myth which apparently is republished in the referenced web site. RG Price does not reference the specific source of information in his web discourse but gives a number of books in a general biography references. References he apparently used but not cited are the studies of Earl Doherty.

Doherty has a degree in Ancient History and Classical Languages, and he was introduced to the idea of a mythical origin of Jesus by the work of G. A. Wells, who has authored a number of books arguing a more moderate form of the "Christ myth" theory. Doherty claims to have used his language skills to have studied the original-language versions of the New Testament, and to have come to his views through a critical analysis of these texts. It does not appear that he is a Professor or what would be considered educationally as a NT exegete.

Price does cite the work of Robert M. Price in his general bibliography and appears to have borrowed a lot of Professor Price's conclusions.

Robert McNair Price (born July 7, 1954 in Mississippi) is a Professor of Theology and Scriptural Studies at the Johnnie Colemon Theological Seminary in Miami Gardens, Florida. He is a prominent religious skeptic, especially of orthodox Christian beliefs, a fellow of the controversial Jesus Seminar, and the author of many books and articles on religion. He has also written extensively about H. P. Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos and runs a user community for those interested in the history of Christianity.

Professor Price's credentials are much more impressive than Doherty's.

A better reference for your conclusion that Jesus was a myth would be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_myth_hypothesiswhich has many more specific references and general references to include RG Price's website.

And it also gives the pros and cons of the mythical arguments and the references to each.

Hi, Gerry,
I absolutely agree that reason and emotion are definitely not mutually exclusive. They are both compelling motivations for human behavior. In fact, I might even venture to say that reason ends up being a tool of emotion. Emotion, being a inherently personal experience, cannot be easily shared. Perhaps we could see reason as an attempt to communicate universally what we have felt personally. I've never felt that reason and imagination are conflicting.

You make an interesting distinction between knowing all the answers and having an answer. I think I need a few examples of the kinds of questions and answers that you have in mind. In general, people who believe in God believe in the existence of an answer to a question, even if we don't know the answer. But I think that belief is more a function of believing in a purpose-driven existence, don't you think?

I'm glad you speak of modesty. Sometimes when I get involved in these conversations, I forget about modesty and humility, so you'll have to remind me if I get carried away in hubris. We certainly need to be humble when confronted by the unknown.

I wouldn't say that atheists are generally more modest and spiritual before the unimaginable. You say that religionist "thinking and imagining ends with a human shaped god - for plausible reasons: That is all their imagination can produce and mostly has produced." You are making a great assumption here, one this as the heart of our disagreement. You perceive God as the result of thinking and imaging. I perceive our thinking and imagining as a result of God. If human populations were in a contest for creating the most imaginative representation of the unimaginable, then, yes, I suppose a god that looks just like me is not very imaginative. (Or, then again, maybe it is. I refer you to a medieval theologian, Pseudo-Dionysius, who speaks of dissimilar similarities as a way of describing God, the undescribable.) But the paradigm of the believer is that God reveals himself to the sincere and desirous believer. The paradigm of the believer is that God communicates, and thus makes himself knowable.

I'm sure that you are aware of this difference in paradigm. I maintain my paradigm because of personal experiences that I have had (and also because it would be really hard to rearrange my world view to fit another paradigm). Perhaps, in all humility, we can acknowledge the unknowability, the unimaginability of the personal experiences that people have that lead them to believe.

For a very interesting discussion of how believers come to believe, I recommend William James' "The Varieties of Religious Experience" and "The Will to Believe."

TO GERRY:

You wrote, "In their paranoia, they believe "god" killed his son so they can continue to worship themselves, instead of asking honest questions about nature which maybe cannot find an answer.

The religionists always have an answer."

I would like to ask something, why do so many have to label others?

I do not consider myself a religionist but some might.

It has only been recently that I have even heard the, ["god" killed his son], even before I met God, I never thought of it that way.

I have mentioned before that I have met God and that God is a Being of Love not that He is a Loving God as in an attribute of His but that He is a Being of Love.

I have also mentioned that God is not a He, a She or an it, even tho God-Incarnate was a Man, a Jewish Man.

People can believe anything that they want but it is important what people do and why they do it and what they know.

God is not the egomaniac that some of the people that know His Name think that He is.

God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof, and some people are in for quite a shock to put it mildly.

It does seem that some people are so religious and/or so spiritual that they have no room left for God, but only God can look into people's hearts.

If God was anything like, even remotely, what some of the people that know His Name present Him to be who would even want to be thankful to something like that, not me that's for sure.

Take care, be ready, see you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Knowing God's Name is not some kind of magic ticket that some seem to think that it is.

God has a Plan and has had His Plan since before creation and His Plan will come to Fruition and His Plan is for All Of His People to be with Him in His Kingdom.

All People are God's People.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Supplement: I hope, Rachel, you are not implying that logic and reason in a person precludes emotion? Again, all psychological research point to the fact that reason and emotion are correlated, not mutually exclusive human qualities.

I can get very emotional at logical nonsense.

Rachel,

I didn't say my atheism is limited by logic. I confronted the religionists - you - with their lack of imagination.

Logic certainly does not exclude imagination. I am a rather successful artist teaching my equally rather successful students to enhance their imagination by fully absorbing their logical abilities. Imagination and logic are correlated, not reciprocal abilities - a very common fallacy even among some artists, lol!

The religionist, of course, doesn't have all the answers, but he always has an answer, which certainly is not the same.

Humans simply feel comfortable with gods embued with human qualities. Atheists, thus, are much more spiritual and modest and imaginative in front of the unimaginable than religionists, whose thinking and imagining ends with a human shaped god - for plausible reasons: That is all their imagination can produce and mostly has produced.

The open questions are the productive questions. Georg Cantor, the famous mathematician: "Asking an important question has more merit than its answer". Honest science asks questions. Religion gives incorrectible answers, no matter how wrong they may be.

Terra,

"A young man, with long brown hair blowing in the wind...in a kilt leaning on a sheathed sword...."

I carry two images of the games, which I go to here in the Atlanta area when I can.

One: a huge man, dressed as a barbarian Scot, with an enormous claymore strapped to his back. My son and I stood and watch him walk by with jaws on the ground.

Two: seeing and hearing my nephew, a member of a pipe and drum band, compete in the piping contest. They came in second. Talk about clan pride! That is Clan Scott, for the record.

Arminius

Gerry,
This religionist doesn't have all the answers. But it's true that, as a religionist, I'll keep on looking for the answers. You very neatly summarize some of Hume's views on natural religion. Perhaps you are right that humans have a hard time accepting the possibility of an unimaginable God, but you yourself are taking a rather rational, limited-by-logic, dare I say unimaginative approach to the question, even while arguing that religion is limited by its inability to accept the unexplainable. My only point is that we each choose how to believe. Those beliefs can be argued from the point of logic and rationality, or from an emotional story that perhaps defies logic, but ultimately the belief precedes the arguments.

For Gerry

That is a good way of putting it, that God is beyond imagination. When you think of it that way, it is hard for anyone to argue you out of it, but of course, a proof is impossible.

Many modern day fundamentalists seem to have a religious belief almost like the Greek Gods of Mount Olympus, with God on High, rising up from his throne, to throw a spear of lightening down upon the earth at the wicked liberals and democrats, and all those bad people who live in San Francisco. I want to tell them "For crying out loud, this is the twenty-first century! not pre-Classical Greece!"

It is all about the incapability of humans to posit a non-personal, "non-human-resembling" source - a source really above their imagination. Therefore they make up "personal" gods, who mirror exactly their human traits, all the way down to the most abominable imaginable atrocities humans are capable of committing. In this manner, they erroneously hope to be able to deal with things beyond human grasp.

Gods are made up for lack of fantasy - the fantasy of the "not-imaginable". Since those entities commit the same atrocities as humans themselves, they are adored and worshiped. In positing gods, humans worship themselves, that is all there is to it.

In their paranoia, they believe "god" killed his son so they can continue to worship themselves, instead of asking honest questions about nature which maybe cannot find an answer.

The religionists always have an answer.

To the Scot in us all...

A number of years ago I went to a Highland Games here in Louisiana...there were two things I carried away from this experience.

I was sitting on bleachers listening to the band Smithfield Faire. Good band..I glanced across the area and there standing was an image I carry to this day...

A young man, with long brown hair blowing in the wind...in a kilt leaning on a sheathed sword.

and the best Oatmeal cookies I ever ate.

terra

I'm a republican, a faithful, very believing, Mormon (and Christian, by the way) republican at that, who is absolutely in favor of the separation of church and state. My reasons for this are more visceral than anything else - I just don't think that religious discourse in the public arena for the purpose of persuasion and forwarding personal agendas could lead anywhere but a bastardization of religion and the proliferation of propaganda. And besides, I can't bring myself to intellectually respect someone who doesn't acknowledge the reality of evolution. Religion is fundamentally a voluntary activity - participation in the government is not voluntary. How could those two endeavors really mesh? On the other hand, I think it is good and healthy to recognize the influence of religion on the American people. Take for example schools, an issue that the author raised. If religious schools are better than public schools, or suit the needs of the citizen better than the public school, by all means, let that person get a tax break (this would be state tax, of course, seeing as it's education)and use that money towards education in the way that they desire. But even this argument is better couched not in religious rhetoric, but in the debate over vouchers. That's another conversation altogether.

Dear Chris

When I thought I knew alot, and believed in many things, then, I did not believe in God.

But as I have come gradually to realize that I know less and less, and believe in less and less, almost to the point of nothing at all, then I believe more in God.

I think that this kind of discussion is tainted by fundamentalism, which confuses a sort of pychological defense mechanism with relgious belief, and which cause all manner of political upheaval and dissension, in which all of the many parties are always on edge, and ready to be offended, and ready to attack the other side.

Chris,

I applaud your description of Daniel ITLD. He and I seem to be similar in our view of God, and religion in general. But he is a lot more polite, compassionate, and informative than I am.

Odd that you feel like you are among aliens when you are around believers. Around fundies, yes - me, too. But I am quite comfortable around non-believers, probably because I was one for over three decades.

The reason you will never see belief reconciled with reason is that it is impossible to do so. I came back to belief in God because of a spiritual event in my life. Nothing of reason in it, and it utterly cannot be proven by any known logic.

Arminius

John Stephens,

Alas! Here we part ways. All the Celtic fury of my ancestors now comes to the surface. I reach for my claymore, because you have blasphemed against the Highland pipes!

On the eighth day, God created bagpipes.

Arminius
(LHAO)

Oh, yes, I do know about the migration from Ireland to Scotland. And also, your pub story was great - and true.

DITLD,

You're probably the sanest poster on this blog (your belief in god notwithstanding). The question you propose gets to the core of the issue. I would add (as I have in the past), if you believe in god, why? Personally, I'm at a total loss to understand how people are capable of belief that to me flies in the face of reality. For me it's plain as day that god is make-believe, and when I'm among believers I feel like I'm among aliens.

Of course, my question must be premised on your question of what kind of god do you believe in, since one can always retreat into the Spinoza god in order to maintain correspondence with reality. But for those with a personal god, with stories of revelations, miracles, supernatural eternal destinations and tribal affiliations, I have yet to see anyone anywhere reconcile these beliefs with reason. Instead, I see retreats into obscurantism and mystery and hear stories of heartbreak and catharsis. Maybe that's enough for some. Maybe for some people reality is grounded in feelings.

Alot of the misunderstanding regarding atheism is due to the fact that it is often conservative Christians and Muslims who define atheism. They say, for instance, that it is a religion, and is a firmly held belif.

But atheism is not a belief, it is "not-a-belief." Even Susan made a slight mistake when she said that atheists make a decision based on th preponderance of evidence (this is just my paraphrase). But often atheists don't do that, they just do not believe. They have not been convinced. I know atheists who are not fervent atheists, just atheists.

All of the people who post here regularly are interested in religious matters, not necessarily matters of faith; that is why they post here. But most people are not interested, not in particular. The reason why so many conservative and fundamentalst people make a quick stop here and throw their bombs, and then leave is because they are not particularly interested in religion, since they already know all there is to know. They may be interested in attending church or mosque regularly, and in praying regularly, but they are not intereted in the types of disucssions that we have here.

I also, have been all over the place on religion and belief in God. Currently, I do believe in God, but I could not even begin to think how I might prove it scientifically; I think that is just not going to happen; it would have already happened by now, if it were ever going to.

When a person says he believes in God, and when I say I believe in God, then maybe we are not even talking about the same thing. I do not believe in God as a great Creator, sitting on a Heavenly throne; I believe in some other kind of God. And I think that the Bible, as a resource, was most assuredl y written by men, and the basic assumption that its words are the words of God seems unbelievable to me.

Alot of the questions posted here seem engineered to promote controversy, and arguing, maybe to attract attention to this site, and some of the questions have been very successful at doing this. Whatever the motivation, alot of the quesitons here do not seem very good, or very intersting.

I think a good question for this forum would be, do you believe in God, and if not, why not, and if so, what to you picture God to be?

John Stephens,

Did Jesus actually read in his synagogue?

See Professor Bruce Chilton's commentary in his book, Rabbi Jesus, An Intimate Biography, pp 99-101- An excerpt:

"What Luke misses is that Jesus stood in the synagogue as an illiterate mamzer in his claim to be the Lord's anointed".

Also in his book, Professor Chilton develops the idea of Jesus as a mamzer; someone whose irregular birth circumstances result in their exclusion from full participation in the life of the community. He argues for the natural paternity of Joseph and finds no need for a miraculous conception. In his subsequent reconstruction of Jesus' life, Chilton suggests that this sustained personal experience of exclusion played a major role in Jesus' self-identity, his concept of God and his spiritual quest."

See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus for an analysis of Jesus' life to include his illiteracy.

And do you really want to quote from the fictional OT??

And quoting from the words of the Prude Paul who significantly lowered his importance by ripping off the Gentiles with the second coming in his lifetime scenario? You have to give Paul credit though, he learned and put to great use the embellishing techniques of the Jewish scribes as he elevated the life of a simple preacher man to that of the supreme deity.

TO EACH AND EVERYONE:

It is so refreshing that civility has finally broken out in this thread. Let's do all we can to make it thrive.

Mose spoke to God face to face as a man speaks with his friend. "Moses was the most humble man on earth."

Contrary to popular misconception, the closer one gets to God the humbler one becomes because the difference is astounding and overwhelming. Daniel, one of the greatest of all the prophets, said, "All my comeliness was turned to corruption."

Like so many others here, I do not judge anyone on the basis of whether or not they are a believer. As is so often said, persons who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. I once was an unbeliever, and how God will judge me is all in His estimation, not mine.

When Jesus came of age (30), he was invited to read in his synagogue, after which he reminded those assembled that there were many lepers in Israel in the days of the prophet Elisha, but to none of them did God come except to Naaman, the Syrian (Arab). The elders became enraged and tried to kill Jesus for daring to suggest that "their" God would deal kindly with anyone but the Jews.

God is not a genie you can cork in a bottle. He doesn't belong to anyone. He causes the rain to fall on the evil as well as the good. He blesses both the unbeliever and the believer. God is a Spirit. God is Love. Paul said, "In Him we both move and breathe and have life." He is the life force, freely given to us all.

Back to the subject of humility. I recall reading about a woman in Finland whose husband was being arrested by Nazis and shipped off to an internment camp. It was a bitter cold winter night. She served hot cocoa to the Nazis to ward off the chill. I'm never going to catch that lady, and I have seen such kindness and selflessness by persons who do not believe in God.

TERRY,

Thanks for the tips on Scottish guitarists.

As far as the bagpipes are concerned, everytime I hear them played I wonder who's stepping on the cat's tail. I think they only have one tune and call it something different each time they play it.

TERRY,

Jesus said the only sin that can never be forgiven is blasphemy.

I give you fair warning: Calling German beer "swill" is blasphemous.

Guinness, however...

ARMINIUS,
Useless trivia you already know: The Scots are from Ireland. They crossed the pond as a tribe called the Scots.

I lived in England my last two years of high school, as my dearly departed step-father was career Air Force. I was in a pub one night with some buddies when a man strolled in wearing a tartan kilt. He had a fine cut of the jib.

"Oh, you must be Scotch!" says my friend.

"Lad, Scotch is a drrrrink. A Scot is a man!" he bellowed.