All Comments (533)

Mr Mark,

Don't take it personally. The god squad is famous for hit and runs!

Dear DITLD -

It looks like this thread has been deserted.

I'm still smarting from my disappointment that none of the faithful provided an answer to my 4 questions from JANUARY 24, 2008 3:29 PM.

I'm not surprised I didn't get an answer, just disappointed...again.

If anyone is still looking at this thread, I am sure dissappointed in the next question about the signifigance of religious leaders. I cannot relate to it at all. Maybe I will sit this one out.

Daniel ITLD,

Re your reply to 'Truth': Well done. I am behind you 110%. That sad individual has no concept of what Jesus said - I hesitate to even call him Christian, so mired is he in Old Testament rules and end-of-days stuff. Nothing, nothing does he say about how our Lord told us how to live NOW, which is the true preparation of whatever the hell may come after. Nothing about how to deal in love with our fellow inhabitants of God's glorious creation. And the endless drivel about Denmark being founded by a lost tribe? Gimme a break!

Chip on his shoulder? Hell, it's a damned log.

Arminius

Dear Mr. Truth

I can't say what I think of you because that kind of language is censored here. But you are a jerk.

Reference to God in any government document is a political statement, a nod to the form of tradition and custom as practicesd by the people but has ZERO meaning as far as any relgious doctrine is concerned and has ZERO meaning as far as any spiritual truth is concerned. Who the Hell cares what is written on money? Who cares if it says "in God we trust..." or not? It's money, for crying out loud! Do you think God cares what is written on man's money?

Your question is rediculous and absurd. You ask sarcastically, what would any of us say to those people who wrote the Constitutions with the word God included, which turns out not to be the case after all. The answer is really quite easy: we would merely say to them what we would say to anyone else.

You are a real example of the angry, sorehead Christian, with a nasty chip on your shoulder. Being a Christian does not seem to be doing you any good. Every time a hypocrite like you speaks, it just crushes down the reputation of Christianity more, and more, and more.

Thank you very much Mr. Truth for your contributiohn to this discussion.

Mr Mark,

You are most probably correct. Fundies are (in)famous for twisting things to match their agenda. Anything, anything on a site promoting the inserting of religious beliefs into the law of the land must always, repeat, always, be mistrusted.

Keep up the investigation. Even though we differ greatly in belief, we have, I must admit, a common foe.

Arminius
A Christian
Note the spelling, no 'X'. (GRIN!)

Arminius -

I'm getting the uneasy feeling that this WVA "Preamble" is a Xian-driven urban myth. I have done a number of searches on the words that start this supposed citation, and the only sites coming up are Xian-apologist no-separation-of-church-and-state sites. No government sites, no law sites, nothing.

This might be one of those bogus quotes that get recycled among the grasping-at-straws faithful.

What do you think?

Truth,

To tell you the truth you made a big point.

You said:"I would be very interested to hear your excuses or flawed hypothesis how that 50 or so random people over the past few hundred years were/are misguided."

Well stated: 50 or so random people over a long period of time cannot be misguided.

For example, more than a billion people cannot be misguided when they mention for more than one thousand years the name of Allah, The Creator and Lord of the Universe. They actually have the eternal truth.

But behold! other two billion people cannot be misguided when they mention for almost two thousand years the God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So they also have the eternal truth.....

But wait again, what about the other three billions of people in the earth? Well... they also must have their particular truth, whatever the god or gods they mention.

Yes, 50 or so random people over the past few hundred years were not/are are not misguided when they mention god in the constitution of the states. The only problem is that they have their own truth.......

Misguided

MOONMAN is truth!!!

West Virginia shines with MOONLIGHT!!!

West Virginia is lit with MOONSHINE!!!

TRUTH is a lie!!!

TRUTH knows not MOON!!!

TRUTH shines no light!!!

TRUTH worships dead corpse Jesus!!!

Jesus is dead!!!

Jesus is gone!!!

MOONMAN is here!!!

MOONMAN is now!!!

TRUTH, come to MOONMAN!!!

TRUTH shall become MOON!!!

TRUTH shall be fully MAN!!!

MOONMAN!!!

MOONMAN!!!

MOONMAN!!!

Mr Mark,

You are quite correct about the WV constitution. I took a look at it, on the official WV site. No mention of God.

Arminius

Dear Truth -

Re: the preamble to the WVA Constitution: before I posted my response, I referenced the WVA State Legislature site and looked up their State Constitution. It appears here:

http://www.legis.state.wv.us/WVCODE/WV_CON.cfm

I searched the site for a preamble and found none available at the WVA State Legislature website, ergo my statement that their State Constitution doesn't contain a preamble.

The link you provided (-www.abanet.org/publiced/conversations/constitution/preamblelesson.pdf --) takes one to a pdf document issued as part of an educational prospectus produced by the American Bar Association. A WVA preamble is given as an example of a State preamble as part of a suggested exercise on having students write a new preamble to the federal Constitution. The following is included as a note:

"West Virginia adopted its first Constitution in 1863, when it became the 35th state in the Union. The state is now governed by its second Constitution (1872)."

So, my question is this: is the preamble you cited from their first Constitution of 1863, and if so, was that preamble dropped from their second Constitution of 1872, ie: the WVA Constitution that is now in effect? If the WVA Constitution still contains the preamble you cited, why is it not available at the WVA State Legislature website? Are you suggesting that an ABA teaching guide is a more-authoritative voice on the WVA Constitution than the WVA State Legislature's own website?

Thanks for any info you can provide on this.

Jeff, Mr Mark, and Daniel ITLD,

He's baaaaaaaack! And his post makes me feel like I'm listening to someone raving in a padded cell. I know this is an unkind comment, but he literally pushes me away with his verbal outrage. Whatever his religious views, I see very little there that is really Christian.

Arminius

>>How would you have told those in the 50 states of our union that scribed the preambles to their constitutions that they, all 50 of them, are unintelligent, unenlightened, somewhat misguided, dumb...or whatever verbage you may use?"

>>Of course, no one would talk to a state, because, as I said before, a state is not a person and cannot carry on a conversation.

The question was how would you have told THOSE in the 50 STATES. THOSE and STATES are obviously separate in the question. Do you think a 6th grader might even realize that referring to THOSE in STATES may just mean a person. With all due respect, your spin is pathetic, my friend.

Also, I find it truly amazing that people spin 'Creator' and 'Author of our Existence' to not equal God (referring to Mr Mark stating God is not mentioned in certain preambles)

Feeble attempt, again, my friend.

BTW:

STATE CONSTITUTIONS PREAMBLES
West Virginia Constitution Preamble
"Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West Virginia, in and through the provisions of this Constitution, reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God and seek diligently to promote, preserve and perpetuate good government in the state of West Virginia for the common welfare, freedom and security of ourselves and our posterity."

the above from www.abanet.org/publiced/conversations/constitution/preamblelesson.pdf

Sorry, Mr Mark....Google Mars doesnt work on earth.

Still no answers to why, oh to give you the benefit of the doubt (which I really dont have too), 49 state preambles mention a Creator, God?. Are you going to tell us they were all fools too? (as someone above stated of me) Sorry, but I do sense a bit of brown-nosing amongst you. Unfortunately, that proclivity does not show much of any comprehension of subject matter either.

And Lepi.
Do a study on where the 12 tribes of Israel ended up. Judah/Benjamin/Levi...most descendants of these you will find modern day state of Israel. Interestingly, tribes such as Dan (who became Danites (Danish) you will find), Reuben, Asher...descendents ended up in NW Europe. Study into how the prophet Jerimiahs clan ended up in the British Isles..how the throne of David was brought there. And especially how Ephriam and Manasseh's blessings by their father could only foretell the British Commonwealth and the US, respectively. Much much more....Its all there, my friend.

You know I have learned some great stuff today too, Jeff P. The spin zone is not just on FOX.

Remeber folks...even if you dont believe in a creator God....think about it. Mankind has many gods they tout. Why is that? Is it mans doing....or is it God's doing? One family of man who are each and every one brought into this world the same way. If one is a believer, one God is not so hard to see. If we take man's word...well, thats how Webster came up with the word confusion (I say tongue in cheek)

Why so much confusion? Oh how we wish we could ask someone 2,4 or 6 thousand years ago. But take heart...the answers will come.

Jesus Christ said to watch. Take it to heart folks...times a tikin'. 'Study' (to show yourself approved) is also in scripture. Lots to study..but the answers are all there.

I bid you good day, all.

Jeff P,

Thanks! And thanks also for your comment about wanting more folks like Daniel ITLD and myself. I think that he and I get kinda lonely here, being the token moderate Christians. But the Pagans and the reasonable non-believers are pretty good company!

Arminius

Arminius, the feeling is mutual. You are always a breath of fresh air, thanks always for your contributions.

Jeff P,
You said: "You know I have learned some great stuff today--thanks for all who contribute in a way we can all learn."

You got that right! That's why I am here, to learn. And I have learned a lot, to be sure, but only from people who don't have an obvious axe to grind. Fundies teach me nothing, nor do the more strident atheists.

Arminius

Mr Mark:

Thanks for the visual description. I really like Jon Voight, just having seen him again in National Treasures: Book of Secrets. My son and I really had a blast with his character. So thanks, I can now have a mental picture of you in general!

And as far as being in shape, I really like the shape of Jon Voight's daughter, Angelina Jolie. But that's definitely not appropriate for an "On Faith" dialogue..

You know I have learned some great stuff today--thanks for all who contribute in a way we can all learn.

Truth:

Are you trying to claim that the Bible foretold the founding of the United States? PLEASE show me that prediction chapter and verse.

Gaby:
Heathen isn't a bad word - its root meaning is "one who dwells on the heath." Just like the root meaning of "Pagan" is "one who dewlls in the countryside." Religiously, these words simply refer to the various local deities and their worshippers. The word "Witch" comes from an ancient word meaning "Wise." Nothing evil in any of those words. Certain Christian preachers have tried to make them into slurs, but they don't own the words.

Truth,

So if a majority of people (as expressed in State preambles), mention Zeus, that would confirm the existence of Zeus?

And if they don't, then Zeus does not exist?

I think I get it now.

If a majority of humans believes in a particular god, it must exist and if the majority doesn't believe in that god, then it doesn't exist.

You claim the god of the bible exists but since a majority of humans (worldwide) don't believe in the god of the bible, then by your own logic the god of the bible clearly must not exist.

Furthermore, since a majority of humans does not believe in any one particular god, then no gods exist.

But never mind, persuasive as they can be, Ad Populum (bandwagon) arguments are completely irrelevant anyway.

JEFF P:
Mr Mark, I'd vote you in precisely because of your 10 points--you're human!

I just don't know if you LOOK like a president..."

I have been told on many occasions that I resemble the actor, Jon Voight. That is becoming less so as my hairline recedes (in fact, the chances of it coming back are as bad as those for "victory" in Iraq!). That said, I DO have blond hair, I stand at 6'2," and at 50+years of age, I keep in shape and still have a 34" waist! Plus, life-long Democrat.

DANIEL IN THE LION'S DEN sez:
"Dear Mr. Mark

You are so smart."

I will confess that 45 minutes ago, I knew nothing about what any state constitution said about god in its preamble. However, I have learned that whenever a religionist utters an absolute (in this case, Truth's assertion about god in preambles) it's my cue to immediately launch an internet search to validate their claim, which is what I did by Googling the phrase "state constitutions mention god."

Two seconds later and I had hundreds of sources at my disposal. I compared 3 of them from reliable sources and felt satisfied that the info I was about to post was accurate.

So, I'm only "smart" in that I know how to access and evaluate information, not that I already know the information.

Jeff P. and Mr. Mark, good combacks, both!

Daniel ITLD and Arminius, I wish there were more of you around!

Mr Mark

To be President, you have to 35 years old, and you have to have a wife who can fake an adoring look at you at all times.

Dear Mr. Mark

You are so smart. (In case you could not tell, I meant that in a good way).

What are the odds, we will ever hear from Mr. Truth again

Mr Mark, I'd vote you in precisely because of your 10 points--you're human!

I just don't know if you LOOK like a president...

Mr Mark,

Nice research on state constitutions. Oddly enough, my state of Georgia does mention God, but just calling for his guidance.

I am, however, wondering just what planet 'Truth' lives on.

Arminius

Mr Mark asks: "Why are those without evidence, facts reason or logic to support their beliefs so prone to thinking they've got the inside track on what constitutes truth?"

Because without any facts, an argument from abiguity is all they have. By conflating the word "truth" with "belief" they can escape the burden of proof which is otherwise impossible for them to meet.

Bagt writes:

"I would rather have someone like Mr. Mark in office than the likes of those we've had over the last 50 decades."

Why, thank you for the kind words.

However, I don't think I'd ever make it through the vetting process to run for office, for the following Top Ten reasons:

1. I'm an atheist

2. I'm probably considered a strident/radical atheist

3. I've only been married once and I've never been divorced (obviously, I couldn't run as a Republican, at least this year).

4. I probably used a swear word in church back in 7th grade, and with today's background checks, it would show up at the worst time possible

5. I participated in the very first Earth Day

6. I don't follow NASCAR and wouldn't know Jeff Gordon from Commissioner Gordon

7. I dislike both country and gospel music

8. I've drawn unemployment benefits more than once in my life

9. I currently have two speeding violations on my driving record, one, 4 mph over the limit, one 8 mph over the limit.

10. I could never end any speech I gave with the obligatory, "God bless you, and god bless the USA".

;)

Sorry, on my previous point, I accidentally deleted a few words.

My statement should have read, "There is NO MENTION OF GOD IN THE PREAMBLES to the state constitutions of New Hampshire, Vermont, Virginia and West Virginia as their constitutions don't have preambles."

The rest of the post stands.

Gaby, I had the same question for "Truth."

Does the sentence mean, in light of the fact that there will never be a time when mankind all recognizes that there is one god, always has been, always will be.... , therefore there is need for a theocracy?

All 50 states, in all the preambles. That must PROVE there is a god!

But wait... I'm a physician, and I along with millions of physicians throughout history (much longer than the 50 state preambles) have sworm the Hippocratic Oath. Here's the start of it:

"I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygeia and Panaceia and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfill according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant: ...."

By this measure, I've PROVED that this is a polytheistic world...

Truth sez:

"As you put it sometime Mr. Mark..."Again, care to comment why 50 states with 50 preambles mention God?"

Well, you're wrong.

There is NO MNETION OF GOD IN THE PREAMBLES to the state constitutions of New Hampshire, Vermont, Virginia and West Virginia.

There is no mention of god WHATSOEVER in the West Virginia constitution, and the word "god" is used only the constitutions of NH, VT & VA in language that guarantees people the right to religious freedom (Ex: NH Part 1, Article 5:
"Every individual has a natural and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience, and reason; and no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping God in the manner and season most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience") and sometimes in the Oath of Office.

Care to comment?

For Mr. Truth

States are not people; they are political constructs; a state is a concept in man's mind, although seeming rock-solid and real, but like many things to which we attribute reality, they are not real.

So the preamble of a state constitution is merely a political statement and any reference to God does not mean that there is a conscious state with religious belief; it is a political nod to "ceremonial deism" which means a reference to God by a state, for traditional form only, without any real religious intent, purpose, or meaning.

Your question to atheists was:

"How would you have told those in the 50 states of our union that scribed the preambles to their constitutions that they, all 50 of them, are unintelligent, unenlightened, somewhat misguided, dumb...or whatever verbage you may use?"

Of course, no one would talk to a state, because, as I said before, a state is not a person and cannot carry on a conversation.

I think that in your religious belief, you are framing it in the worldy and political constructs of man, which I do not believe, at least, would seem very important to God.

I can tell you are a little bit ticked, but I am not sure why. Why don't you just state what your beliefs are and why, a little more directly.

Truth,

I would rather have someone like Mr. Mark in office than the likes of those we've had over the last 50 decades.

Also,

"A theocracy would be a totally unecessary term/situation if all of mankind grasped that there is only one God. Always has been. Always will be."

What in hell is that supposed to mean? You have found the "real" god and whoever believes otherwise is a heathen? So all the non-christian people of the world deserve a theocracy to jam christianity down their throats?

What a pompous fool you are!!!!

Sure....50 preambles mentioning God are brainwashed people..

And those that comment derrogartorily...well, the think they are the enlightened ones. There is the actual hogwash.

As you put it sometime Mr. Mark..."Again, care to comment why 50 states with 50 preambles mention God?"

Or perhaps you have no answer other than your own 'feelings' or 'fables'

Nonsense to you, pertinent to millions of others.

You can be sure you wont be chosen to lead the people. How thankful we can be for that.

I just finished reading 'From Jesus to Christianity' by Michael White and I found it a scholarly and well researched book. The author discusses the different movements, and their writings, that existed during the first four genartions after Jesus. Anyone interested in that early age of Christianity might find this book a very good read.

Jeff P-

I'm also open to new logical, reasonable, verifiable knowledge. I just rank the possibility of god existing down there with fairies and alien abductions.

If god does exist, I need to question his omniscience as he apparently never saw the scientific method coming. ;)

Mr Mark:

Suffice it to say we're on the same wavelength, rightly or wrongly. But I'm open to new logical, reasonable, verifiable knowledge, as I know you are.

Truth:
Certainty="Truth"=Brainwashed.

Dear Jeff P -

I second your thoughts on Truth's condescending hogwash.

BTW - considering the posts above, wouldn't "Fact-less Fantasy" seem a more-apt moniker than "Truth?"

Why are those without evidence, facts reason or logic to support their beliefs so prone to thinking they've got the inside track on what constitutes truth?

Oh, almost forgot - because a few scared-to-death barbaric nomads wrote down some nonsense a few thousand years ago.

Thanks, Truth, for the condescending hogwash.

Question to the atheists who commented above: Humor me. How would you have told those in the 50 states of our union that scribed the preambles to their constitutions that they, all 50 of them, are unintelligent, unenlightened, somewhat misguided, dumb...or whatever verbage you may use?

I would be very interested to hear your excuses or flawed hypothesis how that 50 or so random people over the past few hundred years were/are misguided.

True, there are no votes in heaven. Scripture says no man has ascended to heaven. Put the blame where it truly belongs with regard to not understanding what the bible really says. And it ain't God who's to blame.

A theocracy would be a totally unecessary term/situation if all of mankind grasped that there is only one God. Always has been. Always will be. Wouldnt be an issue. Again. Mans problem for not understanding that. Not God's.

And there is but one God. This age of mankind, as others past, do not fully realize this yet. But we will. The courses we have taken are not the fault of a creator God. We collectively have eliminated Him from our lives in so many ways that true knowledge of Him is lost...for now.

Additionally, I wouldnt discount the Kingdom of God unless you really study into it. Its all in the scripture carried by millions in this world. And by the way..it wont be in heaven. Read the book.

Truth said:

"One would wonder why those that deny the existence of God even desire to live in a land where every states preamble to their respective constitutions acknowledges God."

I never wonder that. Why would you wonder that? People just live where they live, don't they?

TRUTH sez:
"One would wonder why those that deny the existence of God even desire to live in a land where every states preamble to their respective constitutions acknowledges God."

One might wonder why those yearning to live in a theocracy don't take flight from our very-secular democracy. I find it rather odd that those privileged to live in a one person-one vote democracy long to spend eternity in a kingdom, ie: a dictatorship.

There are no votes in heaven, neither are the Rights of Man recognized as having any standing whatsoever in the heavenly realms of the gods. What's funny is that the believers are told this going in, yet they still can't wait for the day when their freedoms are dashed against the stone of god's capricious laws.

For me, I'll take the democracy enshrined in our Constitution, for our Constitution calls for - and has already delivered - a higher righteousness than any god has ever imagined or, more importantly, has ever promised.

Mr. Mark,

Interesting reference. I put it on my list of NT documents to peruse more carefully at a later date.

Whether Jesus lived or was a fictional character, he was no doubt one of the most embellished characters of history or fiction. The likes of Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen and the Jesus Seminarians have removed the embellishments, some might say flaws, so that by the time they finished there is not a whole lot left that was not there beforehand in the codes of the ancients. And whether historic or fiction, Jesus' "biographers" did encapsulate some of the great rules of living a good life i.e. the Beatitudes and the Two Great Commandments. Do we need anything else??

Dear Daniel -

If you're into reading more about how the Jesus story evolved, then I highly recommend the following site:

http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_history.htm

It's a lot to read, but it's very interesting and copiously referenced. There are additional articles at the site that are equally compelling.

One would wonder why those that deny the existence of God even desire to live in a land where every states preamble to their respective constitutions acknowledges God.

It seems that those of us who do believe that we are not a just a fluke of chance are looked at as base or unintelligent to all those who believe otherwise. I would personally rather be considered that along with those who lived scores of years before me who believed the same way and were not ashamed to acknowledge God in their preambles...in all 50 states.

Those who deny God really have no clue whatsoever as to the destiny of our country that was foretold centuries, yea millenia, ago.

Arminius

Thanks for that site. I looked at it. I have never thought much about such things. I notice that all of the various frequent commenters have their own specialized interests. I seem to be a little more interested in philsophy, in general, and not as interested in analyzing every word of the Bible for meaning, or researching all of he documented sources from so long ago.

I know of a verse from Mark, with an interesting aside, that I was taught as a child, but I cannot cite it right now, because I never memorized the Bible. I wonder why I never did that? (I have to go look it up, and post it later).

Daniel ITLD,

Q is the theorized compilation of the sayings of Jesus used, along with Mark's Gospel, by the authors of Matthew and Luke. See this link:
http://www.livius.org/q/q-source/q1.htm

Since the conversation seems to be in a lull, I was wondering if anyone could tell me what is the meaning of Q.

I guess I must really be out of it, since I have never heard of it before.

Susan Jacoby for President!!!!!!

And Preacher "Huck" for Pew Cleaner!!!

Mr Mark stated:

>>Nature and life finds a way. The fact is that human homosexual couples can have children by using a third party, just like flowers.

Cant be 'just like flowers' my friend. Human conscience is a factor. One of the three in the human realm that provided the surrogate may have a change of heart, desire a relationship with the child. Emotions, hurt feelings, despair....you name it...all are fair game.

You promote to society a realm of confusion...not an alternative.

..and so it is with mankind.

..Breakdown ahead. Watch out.

Unbelievable.

The only redeeming factor to commenting on Mr. Marks comments such as this is that it (his 'suggestion') will be corrected before it is too late.

"We're Electing a President, Not A Holy Fool"

or perhaps...

"We're Electing a President, and glad it won't be Susan Jacoby"

I am the Anonymous above at 9:03 AM

I think Gerry said,

"Everything humans don't understand (yet) = god(s)."

And he also said, that religion is cultural.

Yes, the various ways in which people practice their religions is purely cultural, and not necessarily relevant to any kind of true understanding of spiritual things. A culture is defined by the way people do things, including the way people pray. The thing that makes a Christian different from a Moslem is not that one of them has the truth and one of them does not, but in the way that that they do things in the practice of their relgions.

But, an individual can take what has been handed to him by previous generations, and mull it over, and think it over, and compare it to what is known today, and give it newer or different meanings than traditionally relgious people would. Some people that do this may end up as atheists; others may end up with a characterization of God that is unique to their way of thinking, which of course could not be prescribed by the a society's culterual customs, or derived from antiquated relgious text.

Yes, things which we do not understand or know about, but may wonder about, we attribute to God. In the past, that included a lot more stuff than it would today, since we are aware of so much of the workings of the world than we did in the past. Characterizations of God cast in a world more ignorant than our own, must of course give way to newer and different characteriZations of God. Many people, fundamentalist protestants and orthodox catholics, as well as people of many other religions are stuck in old ways of thinking that absolutely don't make sense anymore. They are sure they are right, but I am equally sure that they cannot be.

GABY writes:
"Mr. Mark,

"Thanks a bunch for the biblical abortion link.

"The way I read it is that they knew all about abortio even way back then, yet no one ever comdemned it. So what's up with the with Huckabee and his ilk?"

Abortion is simply a fact of life among biological species. This fact was driven home to me when my wife and I lost a baby at 26 weeks. After the incident, our doctors informed us that fully 25% of pregnancies don't go full term. Small consolation for our loss, but it does give one a perspective that isn't readily offered to those seeking to have children.

So, yes, the ancient people realized that abortions occurred. I imagine those that happened "naturally" were seen as god's will, and those that were induced "unnaturally" were to be dealt with through laws that were seen as an extension of god's great plan. The ancients lived much closer to death than we do today. It's an experience that informed their lives directly in a way the civilized world can't imagine today.

Religion's great and ghastly skill is the ability to take the natural world and assign guilt and consequence to that which will happen without any assistance from those at which that guilt and consequence is directed. From the outright theft of the innate and hard-won sense of morals and ethics that we humans have gained through our evolution, to the causes behind the premature death of fetuses, to the reason behind the very rising of the sun, religion rushes in to take credit for that which it had no hand in either devising or determining.

What's up with Huckabee and the anti-choice crowd, you ask? Politics, plain and simple. The same politics religion has employed throughout time immemorial.

Thanks for the chat.

Gerry,
I do not know any Pagan that thinks the gods they honor are the one and only truth, they just are for them. In fact I am a soft Polytheist. I also believe that truth is a kernal that all religions build around...like a grain of sand that becomes a pearl.

We are not children of the book...but of the Earth. That makes a huge difference.

terra

Mr. Mark,

Thanks a bunch for the biblical abortion link.

The way I read it is that they knew all about abortio even way back then, yet no one ever comdemned it. So what's up with the with Huckabee and his ilk?

By the way, I am not pro-abortion, but outlawing it is not the answer. Some restrictions, however, would be welcome.

Hi, Gerry - I'm feeling a little short on imagination this morning, but here are two real-life modern examples:

The church of the flying Spaghetti Monster http://www.venganza.org/

The Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter day Saints

Everything humans don't understand (yet) = god(s).

Lack of understanding the world = indisputable fact.

Therefore:

God = indisputable fact: There is a lot we don't understand! (lol, God is a question of semantics!)

Otherwise, anyone with some degree of poetic fantasy could easily construe a religion around this indisputable fact. Such "poets" will find, and always have found, myriads of followers, "believers" with some lower level of fantasy than theirs. The acceptance of this "poetry" by "believers" is always the more fanatic, the more abstruse the contents of the poems.

And once such a religion - any religion - is thus established, it becomes culture and tradition. Culture and tradition, of course, are sacred, so the contents of the original "poem" are sacred and become an "eternal truth", the more so, the more abstruse these contents. It is that easy.

I invite everyone with some writing ability and some degree of fantasy to draft a religion with the most improbable content. (Harry Potter comes to mind).

Religion is culture (even for the Jihadist, judging by her report of her multicultural ancestry), and NOT "truth"! And as culture, granted, it may have a social value as a helpful means for self-definition (we are "we", I am "I"!).

Godfrey, you've been getting too much of your information from the likes of Swift Boaters and Rush Limbaugh.

Athena,

Thanks for the reference. I withdraw my remark about alleged murders.

Unfortunately, the article doesn't address the rest of the allegations I repeated.

I stand by the words I attribute to Ken Starr, because I got them from the man that Starr said them to.

I stand by the allegation that Hillary was up to no good with the famous beef transaction. NO outsider makes money in commodities. I remember a reporter in New York tried to duplicate Hillary's beef futures success, and the first thing that happened was the market ran her stops and closed out her position at a total loss (though the reporter didn't recognize what had happened). Only insiders make money in commodities. Or politicians that are laundering bribes.

The other stuff... who knows? Considering the likely criminal behavior, it all strikes me as believable.

Dear Jeff P -

Thanks for the shout out on Susan's "Freethinkers." I'm in the middle of it right now. Wonderful book. I'm learning a lot.

She's inspired me to read Thomas Paine. I hate to admit it, but I've never read "Common Sense" or "The Age of Reason" in their entirety. THAT oversight will be corrected after I finish Freethinkers as I just picked up his major works at Border's on Friday.

Brava, Susan!