All Comments (108)

DZ,
May the energy of peace and love envelope you and your family at this time. It is hard to know what to say...

May you find strength in memories,

terra

Mod:

I was trying to think of a way to express the same thing without sounding trite.

DZ - Light and positive energy coming your way.

Moderate - that was lovely.

DZ - I echo Moderate's words, as I imagine a lot of readers here would, irrespective of their religious persuasion.

Dear DZ:

In the end your love for her and hers for you is what matters. "Everything else is crap."

DZ, my thoughts are with you.

DZ--

I am deeply sorry to hear that you and your wife are going through this. There are never adequate words in situations like this.

Very truly yours,

Susan

to DZ:
Your personal crisis certainly puts this discussion into perspective. Comfort and peace to you and your family.

I live in one of the most secular places in America - Portland, OR - and no one cares about the words that are used. Use what works for you, give everyone some slack, etc. I am an atheist, but I have always enjoyed the closeness and comfort of my family, and the holidays are special for me.

Today, my wife comes home from the hospital to die. 3 years of fighting ovarian cancer, and it's over. She's also an atheist, but she wanted a Christmas tree and all the related stuff - stuff she remembers from her childhood. So, I did all that.

We need to focus on what we have in common and how we can coexist harmoniously. Everything else is crap.

No, Daniel, you're not losing your mind, I have similar recollections. We didn't go around saying "Merry christmas" to anyone, except if we knew they were christians and we knew we weren't going to see them on Christmas.

My parents, who were catholic, sent "Season's greetings" type cards out to everyone on their list - probably mainly other Catholics.

My town was majority Catholic and there was never any tensions among religions that I recall.

Someone, thanks for the compliment.

"Someone who is naive and/or ignorant, could read your comment and assume Christians are totally at fault, and non-Christians have done nothing wrong. I thought it only fair to give people both sides of the story, and those being that both Christians and non-Christians are at fault here."

That was not my intention, and you are right that there is some fault on both sides. My criticism was directed at the demagogues, the commentators who insist there is a deliberate effort to undermine or even destroy Christianity. They have a record of distorting incidents to claim persecution, such as turning Cassie Bernall into a Christian martyr, or even promoting hoaxes such as the Ashley Pollack case in Pennsylvania.

I have some more memories of growing up in my Southern town. I would sincerely invite anyone to comment here, especially Christians, or others, who think that there is a secular "War on Christmas."

In my small Southern town in the 50's and 60's, everyone was somehow affiliated with one of the 12 churches. But of course, it just goes without saying, that even though each and every one of us was "Christian," some were more religious than others, and some went to church often, and some never, and the various churches held and maintained grudges and bad feelings amnong themselves, against each other, of varying degrees of hostility; but one thing most of us agreed on: the Catholics were apostates and all going to Hell. (I suppose the Catholics would disagree, but they all knew to keep their heads down, and to try and get along).

In those days, no one ever heard of or dreamed of a secular "war on Christmas." But there is such a thing as accomodating to the real world, and getting along with people, whom you live among, and not throwing religious or political bombs at people whom you disagree with, since you will be rubbing shoulders with them all year long.

I very clearly and distinctly remember that we said "Seasons Greetings" and "Happy Holidays" in more formal circumstances, and to strangers at Christmas gatherings, or on the street. When you were dealing with people whom you did not know well, nor at all, it was the custom to say something "noncommittal." That is a fact that I very clearly remember. Does anyone have memories or experiences to back me up, or contradict me?

And I remember that my parents had two cards that they sent out, one was a secular card, and one was a Christian card, and they judged and picked and chose who among their friends would get which card. This is not a new custom; being sensitive to the beliefs of others is not new; does anyone else remember these types of customs from so long ago, or even longer ago?

The greeting "Merry Christmas" was reserved more for close friends, loved ones, and family members. And, "Merry Christmas" was a greeting that you said on Christmas Eve, and on Christmas Day, and not in November, right after the Thanksgiving dishes were cleared away.

The problem with Christmas today is not that people don't say "Merry Christmas." After all, there is nothing in the Bible about it, and Jesus did not say anything about it; it is just another nit-picking tangent, relating more to people's compulsions, grudges, and politics but little to do with spirituality, nor religion, nor Christianity.

The problem with Christmas today is the problem of plenty and want, that some people have so much, that they do not know how to handle all that they have, and they do not know how to give, nor recieve, even more, and ever more, and more, and more stuff; it is all sort of mixed up with greed and glutony, and mindless materialism.

And then there is the contrast of the want, when other people do not have enough, and their want is accentuated during the Chrismas holiday season, so that they feel a little extra wince of poverty, during Chrismas, which they may not normally feel.

Anyway, off the subject again. My main point, relating to Susan Jacoby's essay, is that all my life, stretching back to the 1950's, people celebrating Christmas have always accomodated others who are not as interested in the celebration, for whatever reason, and that saying "Happy Holidays," and giving a nod to the secular celebration is not new at all, but very, very old. And that therefore the "war on Christmas" is a complete fiction, more a chip on some people's shoulders, than anything real. Does anyone have any similar memories? Or is this just all in my head?

Yes, what you said is one of the reasons for suicides by some Scandinavians - long winter and not much daylight making people depressed and Igmar Bergman to make those dark and depressing movies too perhaps.

To good company anywhere, anytime.

Goodnight and regards
"J"

Ofcourse they have high suicide rates! It's freakin' cold and there is nothing to do! However, a warm fire and good company would prevent me from ever dreaming of suicide.

Hello Luke,

You stated: "....but the Christmas carols really bother me (no matter who sings them) - so my friend Tim and I have "Merry Deathmas" where we listen to Scandinavian black and death metal and build a fire at his house. We laugh, we cry, we headbang."

Scandinavian black and death metal? Should I worry about you? The Scandinavians have one of the highest suicide rates in the world, especially in winter.

Reading posts in On Faith on Christmas made me realise that my attitude towards Christmas may be a bit odd. I enjoy receiving Christmas cards from friends, acquaintances and clients from all over the world with wonderfully different artwork influenced by their culture.

I'm also sent bottles of wine from all over with names and vintages I only know of from the labels. There's the Italian Prunotto, or is it Trunotto? Barbaresco (very florid scrip) and Fontana Candida, Kumkani from South Africa, and Australian wines with names like Heron's Wing, Banrock Station, Paddox Hill. I never knew Chile produce wines until I received a couple of bottles. I lined them up in my office as if they are oversized snuff bottles to everyone's amusement.

Most of all, I enjoy reading letters from Christian organisations and churches asking for donations that starts with "Greetings in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ!" and ended with, "The Good Lord be with you always and shower you with His blessings" and such like religious salutations.

My personal favourite this year so far is one that started as this:

"Thank you most humbly, in Our Eternal Divine Royal Lord Jesus Christ Most Holy Reverence Name, for the time you will take to peruse our letter with contents."

..and ended the letter with:

"May the humble prayers of our people to Our Divine Lord Jesus Christ, bless you and your family in this precious Holy Advent Season."

Non-Muslims know Muslims don't celebrate Christmas, drink alcohol or regard Jesus as the Son of God. And here I was, again, getting Christmas cards and wines and not minding it. Getting a card or a letter stating Jesus is the Son of God is at once amusing and bemusing as believing so is a blasphemy for Muslims. But then, there is the Sura that says, "To you your belief, to me mine."

The Christmas greeting cards and wines are send in good cheer. The wine givers are merely noting my appreciation for good food and putting into practice what they always preach to me - the enjoyment and appreciation of good food will never be complete if not complemented by fine wine. One even say if I won't or can't drink wine, at least, to put the right wine on the table when I'm eating an exceptionally fine dish as accompaniment. So bourgeois and Francophile.

The Christian organisations and churches letters asking for donations are for good social causes. They pray for me and pray that I support their causes. Can't see anything evil in that, even if they are blasphemers on Jesus from my Muslim point of view, and I am sinful in not accepting Jesus as the Son of God from their Christian point of view:).

Regards
"J"

Susan:

"Of course we shouldn't refrain from wishing people a happy holiday because we don't know their religion."

What if they have no religion and are offended by the idea of a midwinter celebration with various multi religious overtones? Aren't you persecuting them by saying Happy Holidays?

VOTE: ((( Peace Love Rockn Roll nRap Mitt_ROMNEY for Prez 08 YEA!. Happy Every Day, Thanks ))))

To Jan from Minnesota:

Your story about your kids made my day, gave me a good laugh. Not off topic at all, in my opinion.

Happy holidays,

Susan Jacoby

JJ,
Having Bush on tape saying that we were not a religion..and having access of emails between the WhiteHouse and the VA, thanks to the Freedom of Information act, is what got the VA's attention...and won us the case against the VA. We are a religion, and the Gov. was guilty of discrimination..you have heard of the First Ammendment?

When we threatened to take the head of the VA and Bush to court, they decided it was not worth fighting. And they paid the lawyers fees, fees of 10 years worth of fighting.
Yes JJ...Wicca is a religion..and there is a Santa Claus. He just looks like Thomas Jefferson at times.

terra

Jan;

Very funny.I laughed out loud at that one.

Sounds like JJ is back.

President BUSH said, "PAGANS are not a religion.."!

Multy Godddesses & multi G-ddds! Not MONO G-d!

PAGANS need to get a LIFE (have Photon Knowledge), aka REALITY , a.k.a TRANSFINITY!

VOTE: ABOLISH ALL IMPORTED Religions in Sweet Sweet U.S.A., Includes imported Greek/Roman ancient State Religions etc..!

VOTE: ECLATi-ON PARTY [nevrr OFF's] for Gridarian-Democracy & Transfinite Civilization now!

Embargo All Foerighn & Alien Religions in AMEWRICA today! And More. Ya Ya!

This is way off topic but I thought I’d leave a little holiday cheer for us Susan Jacoby fans.
I have a 4 year old daughter and a 3 year old son. My son loves Elmo. My daughter goes to a preschool in a Lutheran church and she gets all this confusing religious stuff thrown at her, like, Joseph and Mary are Jesus’ mommy and daddy, but also Jesus is the son of God. We all sit in their bedroom, and she asks “Who is God? Is it Joseph?” I say, no.. “She says, is it Mary?”, I say, no… My son says “is it Elmo?”

As a pagan, I have no problem with people wishing me a Merry Christmas. That's great! I like Christmas decorations, and carols and many of the other stuff that goes with the season. However, a meaningful Happy Holidays makes me feel just little special. It's the feeling of "Not everyone celebrates Christmas, I'm not sure if you are or not, so whatever you do, enjoy it!!"

As for all the "secular" attacks and other b.s. that many Fox news announcers broadcast, let's think for a minute. 50+ years ago, you'd walk down the street and probably assume everyone you meet was, in some way, Christian (well, for a large percentage of Americans). Nowadays, America is becoming more and more diverse, or at least people are more willing to admit that they are diverse. We could try and be all inclusive with our signs, government religion mentions, school breaks, but that leads to nonsense like school's letting out for a "Chaunakwannasolstidantetmas" break. And who really wants to deal with that? I think it's time for religion to return back to the home and the self and to become personal, rather then having people bicker about what ugly plastic light up religious decoration we're going to put in front of city hall.

I agree that "Someone" seems to have a pretty hostile attitude, in general; I don't get it; if you're not bothered by anybody, then why list all the un-named exceptions?

And Lisa said,

"Geez, Susan always sounds so fed up with the rest of us who just don't get it. I guess the world would be a better place if everyone were as sarcastic and condescending as she is."

Well Lisa, I guess that must mean you're doing your best to make the world a better place.

botta-bing!

I apologize for the poor grammar. It was 1 in the morning, and I was a bit tired as you could imagine.

Yes, it was a compliment to Terra, but not a slam to everyone else...only to those who degrade others and feel they have to start name calling like a little 5 year old. That is SOOO childish and unnecessary. If someone wants to believe that SpongeBob is the God of this universe, who the heck cares? Let them believe what they like. If it does not draw blood or put you in eminent danger, then let people believe in whatever they like. (When I say "you," I'm not addressing YOU personally E Fav. I'm addressing everyone who's reading this. I use the pronoun "you" a lot but do not mean anything by it. I'm sure you understand.)

I am leaving the country for a while and will most likely have no time to reply. My apologies. I am not ignoring anyone, its just that my ministry calls me elsewhere.

I wish everyone a great Christmas season this year and I hope and pray we will work on our New Year's Resolutions this year. Whether it be to loose a few pounds you've been hanging on to, getting over your bitterness towards others, forgiving someone, overcoming that addiction you may have, helping someone in need...whatever it is, this world needs more good(America especially), so good luck!

God bless!!!!!

So this is Christmas... Let’s argue about the same old stuff but give it a fresh holiday twist and a cup of eggnog.

We respond to every miniscule thought or belief that doesn’t line up with our hypersensitive worldview like a bear caught in a steel trap, wildly screaming in pain and anger, swinging his arms in all directions to maul whoever approaches.

We are creatures of condition by choice. We trap ourselves within out insecurities. Most of us don’t want to be free. We’re conditioned. We’re comfortable. We have an “us” to love and a “they” to hate. But we don’t have peace… and never will.

We don't have to live this way.

“We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools.”
MLK Jr.

Someone: "Terra: Hey whats up? It's good hearing from you, and I appreciate the kindness in your replies. There are not a whole lot of people on these forums that I have respect for, but you are not one of them."

I'm not certain, given the multiple use of negatives above, but I think this is meant as a compliment to Terra and a slam to others, is that right?

Geez, Susan always sounds so fed up with the rest of us who just don't get it. I guess the world would be a better place if everyone were as sarcastic and condescending as she is.

I work IT in for an upper-class retail company, so I hate Christmas with a passion. I like pretty trees and lights and all and I appreciate people being compassionate and kind for a single day during the year, but the Christmas carols really bother me (no matter who sings them) - so my friend Tim and I have "Merry Deathmas" where we listen to Scandinavian black and death metal and build a fire at his house. We laugh, we cry, we headbang.

Terra: Hey whats up? It's good hearing from you, and I appreciate the kindness in your replies. There are not a whole lot of people on these forums that I have respect for, but you are not one of them.

You said "And I do not know any Pagan that gets all pissy over being wished a Merry Christmas. What makes us all want to erupt is that Christians insist we want to take away their Christmas. That is stupid and a blatant way for the worshippers of Chaos to make some sheckles to enable them to cause more chaos/ratings."

First of all, the comment you made "worshippers of Chaos" was a very subtle and unnecessary comment. I understand that, since you are a Pagan, you have your issues with Christians. But do you see me taking cheap shots are your religion? No. There are plenty of things I could say, but I don't. I have a very high respect for individuals of ALL religions, and I do not look down on them for not being a Christian. Please show me, and every other Christian, the same respect, and I trust you will.

But, what you said, besides the "worshippers of Chaos" remark, is partially correct. Christians are wrong to act this way, but the majority do not. You make it seem as though most, if not all, Christians act this way. At least that is how it came off to me. You have taken a few radical morons, and one small town in New England, and made an assumption that Christians, as a whole, act like they do. That is an absolutely false statement and I think you know that.

A recent survey by Britannica, found in the Up Front Magazine, showed that 31 percent of Americans are Christians. Now, whether that is true or not, I don't know. I honestly have my doubts about that survey, but I am simply using it to make a point. Christians are the largest religious group in America at this time, and to take a few radical's comments and assume that 1/3rd of America is in the same boat is absolutely absurd. But I do understand where you are coming from, and you have every right to be pissed off at Christians who act the way you have described, but please understand that this does not include the majority. I, as a Christian, apologize for the inexcusable behavior of some "Christians" nowadays.

You also said: "It's all about equality in this land of ...well you get it. I hope." Yes, I do get it, and you could not be any closer to the truth. That's what makes America such a great country. We are free to worship and celebrate as we please.

Tonio: I also would like to thank you for your kind reply. Your suggestion is definitely one to consider, and is most likely true. I was simply replying to your comment to, in a polite way, "defend" Christians. Someone who is naive and/or ignorant, could read your comment and assume Christians are totally at fault, and non-Christians have done nothing wrong. I thought it only fair to give people both sides of the story, and those being that both Christians and non-Christians are at fault here. I think we all have made a bigger deal out of Christmas than necessary. If a Christian wants to celebrate Christ's birth, GREAT. By all means, please do. If and Atheist wants to celebrate the joy and happiness of the holidays, and leave Christ out of it, who cares??? This season ought to be a time to love each other...to get along. But we have made a HUGE deal out of nothing, and both sides of the spectrum are guilty for it. That’s all I am trying to say.

I wish you, Terra, and everyone else here a...

Merry Christmas
Happy Holidays
Happy Hanukkah
Happy New Year
Or anything else that makes you happy. Instead of fighting over the meaning of Christmas, lets just enjoy it. Like I said, this is a free country and we are free to celebrate Christmas as we wish. But lets keep that to ourselves. There is no need of forcing your beliefs on other people, or looking down on those who do not share your opinions.

God bless!!!!!

Thanks D. in the L.D.

Nothing piques my curiosity more than censorship!

RE: Jozevz .... Isn't that just a usual posting for Jozevz anyway? lol

Jozevz typed out a single sentence about his comments being banned on this thread, and then he copied and pasted it over and over until it repeated at least a thousand times, and took up about 75% of the comments of the total of about 50 commenters when he did that. I am guessing a number of people complained to the Washington Post, probably including Susan Jacoby, and his very long comment was removed. So, it was nothing so horribly bad, just a little weird.

Back to the topic at hand ...

As an atheist, I personally celebrate christmas/solstice without any overtly religious components. The tree is the closest thing I have to a religious symbol (please don't lecture my about it's pagan origins, it's just a pretty tree to me) and I decorate it with small ornaments honoring the diversity of the world's religions and cultures.

It's fun to give gifts and share in the good cheer no matter what religious connections others might have with the season. If I know someone celebrates christmas (religious or otherwise), I wish them merry christmas. If I know they don't celebrate christmas or if I'm not sure, I wish them happy holidays.

But no matter what the tradition, people (scrooges) that make a big deal out of what greeting is offered have completely missed the point anyway.

Bah Humbug!

Someone,

I admit I have no hard data. My general impression of people in all social groups is that the vast majority are fairly reasonable. Each group has a vocal minority with a chip on its shoulder. Al Sharpton doesn't speak for blacks, and Pat Robertson doesn't speak for Christians.

"I do not go through ONE day where someone will look at me cross-eyed, or give me a devilish remark simply because I said Merry Christmas."

While I understand why you would object to their reaction, it's possible that the reaction has nothing to do with Christianity. Maybe you happen to encounter many non-Christians who belong to the vocal minority, or who have had bad personal experiences with Christians trying to convert them. Obviously that is pure speculation. I'm saying that it's wrong to characterize non-Christians as being hostile to Christmas or Christianity.

My last 2 posts were dropped (by the moderator?).

All I want to know is why Jozevz got banned?

Can someone (anyone) fill me in?

Meg or anyone else who knows,

What on earth did Jozevz say that got him banned?

Was it anything more than the usual wacky posting?

I don't normally read those posts because they are kinda hard to read and follow but now I'm curious?

Did he call someone an @ssole or what?

Someone..
As a Pagan with an all over the place family...I smile at those who wish me a Merry Christmas and I wish them a Happy Yule. I am not upset in the least by the greetings...that person was honoring me with a warm and nice wish...as I am them.

And I do not know any Pagan that gets all pissy over being wished a Merry Christmas. What makes us all want to erupt is thatChristians insist we want to take away their Christmas. That is stupid and a blatant way for the worshippers of Chaos to make some sheckles to enable them to cause more chaos/ratings.Tain't so. We acknowledge that you have Christmas..and we are happy for you...many of us have Christian family and celebrate with them...what is maddening is that we are expected to kowtow to your holiday but we can not even get our's off work.

It's all about equality in this land of ...well you get it. I hope.
terra

(from the commenter, formerly known ambiguosly, as "Daniel")

I have a different experience than "someone" who feels that people give him a hard time for saying Merry Christmas. No one has ever given me a hard time for saying it, nor looked at me funny, nor made me feel that I had said something wrong. Of course, I am a little shy, and don't shout it out from the roof tops, nor say it to every stranger I meet on the street; I don't assume that everyone is a Christian, and if not, there must be something wrong with them.

Still, I do as I please, go where I please, say "Merry Christmas" to whomever I please, and I just plain don't have a problem with it. This is a tiny and insignifigant problem. This, as a problem, would indicate a very sheltered and shallow life, with lots and lots of spare time to dwell on infintesimal things. I wish I could be so worried, about such a little thing.

Tonio: "I've been saying all along that the vast majority of non-Christians aren't offended by "Merry Christmas."

I will not dispute this, simply because I have no proof. However, I don't know where your facts are to support this statement. Maybe there is a poll or a survey you found that supports this claim, but I have not seen it, but would like to if one exists. Again, I am not saying you are wrong, but I will tell you this much...

I am obviously a Christian, and as a force-of-habit, I say Merry Christmas to practically everyone I see. Christmas to me is the greatest time of year. It is a time of joy, happiness, relaxation, (as HMM said) and any other noun found in most Christmas carols. But to be honest with you. I do not go through ONE day where someone will look at me cross-eyed, or give me a devilish remark simply because I said Merry Christmas. I honestly don't understand what is so wrong with saying the name of the holiday. Its not my fault Christmas is called CHRISTmas.

So I wont disagree with you, Tonio, that the majority of non-Christians does not have a problem with it, but I will say this - the people who DO have a problem with it is not a small, rare minority either.

OH, and I thought it necessary to PRAISE GOD for the absence of Jehovez (I think that was his name). Maybe your call paid out John Stephens!!!

To clarify my meaning, the sentence should read, "I see the purpose behind Happy Holidays or Season's Greetings as acknowledging religious diversity, as opposed to avoiding offending non-Christians." I've been saying all along that the vast majority of non-Christians aren't offended by "Merry Christmas."

from: http://members.tripod.com/~TaraMiller/halloween.html

"Halloween: The Pagan Festival of Samhain

Paganism, and Druidry especially, recognise eight feasts durring the yearly cycle or the Eight Fold Year. These celebrations are based upon a deep and mysterious connection between our individual lives and the source of this planet’s life. Like any other religious ocassion, these Pagan holidays are marked by special observances.

The most popular festival, in ancient times as well as modern Pagan society, is Samhain or Samhuinn, (pronounced Sou’in) the Celtic new year.

Halloween Myths

1) The pumpkin God, Samhain ( pronounced Sam’hane) DOES NOT exist.

2) Pagans DO NOT sacrifice babies or animals on Halloween. The Wiccan Rede states "Do what thou wilst, but harm none."

3) Pagans DO NOT worship the Devil or Satan on Halloween.

4) PAGANS ARE NOT SATANISTS.

These myths have been perpetuated by people who have seen too many horror movies and the Christian idea of horrific and mythical forms of Satanism. "

And contemporary Wiccan witches (commentators?) note:

And contemporary Wiccans note:

"Also, some Wiccans feel that the tradition is offensive to "real witches" for promoting stereotypical caricatures of "wicked witches".[45] However, other Neopagans, perhaps most of them, see it as a harmless holiday in which some of the old traditions are celebrated by the mainstream culture, albeit in a different manner

Truth: Very well said. But be prepared for the onslaught of comments letting you know that you are a retard, as if you need some special revelation from some know-it-all who, in reality, knows nothing but his own bias. Good luck!!!

Louisully, your point is the same general one I've been making. I see the purpose behind Happy Holidays or Season's Greetings as acknowledging religious diversity, not to avoid offending non-Christians. The real problem is that demagogues are claiming that such greetings amount to anti-Christian repression. Did you read the entry on this site by Irwin Kula?

Ms. Jacoby,

Your essay and the subsequent responses epitomizes the confusion that grips the inhabitants of our world..including yours, modern Christianity, and all else.

For you see, the passage of Revelation 12:9 extraordinarily encompasses all that mankind has brought on himself thru allowing ourseleves to be allied with answers to life that are no answers at all..rather, they are error. To our credit, though,in most cases, simply due to lack of knowledge and not necessarily intentional. So, this particular passage in Revelation applies with regard to the current holiday being discussed, modern Christianity, Atheism, Buddhism and on it goes. But the family of man, overall, cannot be told that it is our problem (what Rev. 12:9 says)..it is what we have brought on ourselves. "No, we are all not deceived..how could anyone think that"..we, as a whole, say.

Think again.

One God + thousands of human interpretations = human induced confusion about God.

Where is God, some may ask, in all of this? Why doesnt He show himself and lead us all in the right way?

Well...He did...at first. We (beginning with those before us) basically tell God 'hands off'..so here we are...learning our lesson.

By the way...He will intervene in our confusion before we destroy ourselves. Thats a promise (from scripture)

"Well said, TJ. That was part of my point. I don't feel personally compelled to tell people to enjoy their holiday. But some people see that as Scroogeish. I was questioning the need to have that social custom in the first place."

I think "happy holidays" and "seasons greetings" are simply niceties, like wishing someone "good morning" or "have a nice evening." Again, I wish that people could simple judge each other on intention: when I make a pleasantry by wishing you a happy holiday, I'm not demanding that you enjoy yourself, I'm just wishing you well. With all the rudeness we encounter on a daily basis, I don't understand why a kind wish expressed is so controversial.

"I question the apparent need to turn everything into a Hallmark moment. Your question kind of frames the situation as 'I have to tell people that I want them to enjoy their holiday, how do I do it?'. I take a different tack and ask 'Why do I feel compelled to assert myself and my opinion in to their holiday?'"

Well said, TJ. That was part of my point. I don't feel personally compelled to tell people to enjoy their holiday. But some people see that as Scroogeish. I was questioning the need to have that social custom in the first place.

I think Dickens had more to do with the way we celebrate Xmas than religion does. In the UK anyway.
Its all about the holly and the ivy,and the yule log,and Christmas trees,and turkey and presents.

As I understand it,a December celebration precedes
Christianity by hundreds of years;has to do with winter solstice and pagan rituals,and was later hijacked by Christians,most of whom had been pagans themselves.
My Christmases had no religious component when I
was growing up in Wales during WW2,and never has since then.
Religion is a pain in the neck,and just plain silly.

Daniel;

Maybe there's three of you.Maybe four or five.
I'm not sure which one you are,but obviously you're not the atheist one.
As an atheist myself,I must confess a bias towards
that one,whose comments I generally agree with.
I've also seen another Drew posting comments here,from
time to time,who is also a nonbeliever.
Its a very small world here on WPFaith threads.

Dear Drew

I know, I know. The "Daniel" who writes logically excellent pieces, that's probably me, isn't it, don't you think? I claim to be that "Daniel," the excellent one. When I started posting, I never gave it a thought. Now I see a unique name is kind of important. So, let me think about it a little.

(Who knew there could be 2 people in the world with the same first name)?

Daniel;

There is another Daniel;maybe two.
One is atheist who often writes logically excellent pieces,another comes across as very religious.
It's a common enough name. If you are the religious one,what's wrong with being Daniel R.(for religious)
or Daniel X.
Don't see the problem.
Seasons greetings to you anyway.Enjoy Christmas.
Drew.

Being mean to the mentally ill doesn't help them or accomplish anything. Reporting the offensive comments should be enough to get it stopped.

Jacob Jozevz;
I have reported your comments to the moderator.
Hopefully your comments will result in you being
terminated on these threads.
Does your therapist realize what you are doing in your spare time? Have you stopped taking your medication again?
You are a complete @ssole.

I have noticed another guy named Daniel who posts occaisionally, in a style very similiar to my own, but his temper seems a little harsher. Is he doing it on purpose? or is it just a coincidence? I am not sure. (I am still working on my new name, in case he is "just another Daniel").

This is, once more, just an observation. I grew up in a small Southern town in the 1950's. I very distinctly remember the custom, even way back then, that people commonaly said "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings." So these are not new secular incursions into Chrhistmas. These greetings have been around for a very long time. It is paranoid to suppose that their use is some kind of anti-Christian conspiracy.

Another point, as a Christian, I find the celebration of Christmas to be intrusive and dominating; it is wearying. Wow! How must it make Jewish people or atheists feel? And even more, I have Christian friends who do not feel joyous at Christmas, but they get depressed. When I say depressed, I do not mean they get cranky or scroogish; they get sad; very, very sad. It is diffucult for them, and difficult for me to watch. I spend a lot of my Christmas season, not trying to make these people happier, but just trying to help them get through it all, until the days of January, when they start to get better.

Who even cares what sort of greetings that you get from strangers on the street, or sales people in stores? Who even cares if you don't get all your cards out, or don't get all your gifts bought and wrapped, or if you don't get all your lights up, or if you weren't the life of the many Christmas parties? (I guess alot of people care).

My suggestion is that Christmas should be celebrated every 4 years, like the Olympics.

Merry Christmas, and a Happy New Years, and as we used to say in the South, "Seasons Greetings" to all.

As an agnostic, I've never been offended by Merry Christmas. Ditto most of my friends.

And when I was a Christian I was not offended by Happy Holidays.

Maybe it's the season, but around this time of year Christians always seem to start competing with Muslims for having the thinnest skins on the planet.

Get over yourselves.

And Happy Holidays!

Right on! Ms. Jacoby articulates very well the frustration I've felt at the insensitivity and bigotry of the majority toward minority creeds in the U.S. - supposedly the country where liberty and tolerance reign. The "Christianity is under attack" business is all about raising money for right-wing organizations that wish to force their religious beliefs on every one - it is not grounded in facts or reality in any way. Where is the morality of the "values politics" crowd?

Jozevz,

Because I have nothing nice to say to you, I just scroll through your typically verbose, crap filled pidgin English posts because I know it is unkind to verbally abuse the mentally challenged. Furthermore, I believe strongly in your right to express yourself freely, even if it is the text equivalent of a pre-schooler's fingerpainting. However, this time you go too far!

If you are having trouble with the admistrators of the forum, I feel for you. If you seek help from other posters in solving your problem I understand.

However, this tantrum is not only counter-productive, it is extremely infantile. You can't get your way so you attempt to ruin things for everyone else. You need to either act like an adult, or go elsewhere.

SERIOUSLY!

"The early founders at Plymouth Rock were escaping religious persecution, but their goal was to establish their own theocracy."

Kacoo, you're right about the theocracy part. But the Pilgrims had already escaped persecution by leaving England for Holland. They left Holland simply because they didn't want to assimilate.

"used to live in a rather smallish city in Lousiana. When October 31st fell on a Sunday, the city council was in a panic for weeks before over whether to allow kids to trick-or-treat (they stopped just shy of calling Halloween a Satanic holiday in so many words) on "the Lord's day." They actually decided to allow kids to trick-or-treat on Saturday instead, and threatened anyone who tried to do it on Sunday with arrest on a charge of disturbing the peace."

Lepidopteryx, thanks for sharing that sad story. The city council's actions definitely breached the wall between church and state. Not because of any religions origins of Halloween, but because the council members used its own religious belief as the basis for law. Whatever the religious origins of Halloween, the reality is