All Comments (221)

Daniel, I stuck around because you kept answering my posts. Well, I wouldn't call it answering, just agreeing to disagree and avoiding the questions. You call yourself a Christian and yet appear to take God's word as anything but. It seems based on the postmodern, liberal school of thought that has no reference points that will allow examining - an invisible faith that doesn't want to be scrutinized but is willing to call someone else on theirs. I invited you to show me from the Bible where and why you believe I error. I don't think I am going to get a straight, honest answer to my questions, so we might as well move on.

Take care!

Peter

I know that I am alot older and more experienced than you are. There are lots of people in the world like you. I have met many of them.

You want to engage me personally in dialogue, but it's not going to happen so stop asking. You know what you know, and you know I am wrong, and there is nothing that I could say to make you understand, so I am not going to try to. I have seen your other posts, and how you react to other people's arguments. You are God's all-knowing spokesman. You have never responded to me saying this, other than to say that it is not true. Then why do you think I say it? You certainly seem like a very arrogant person, who could use a good dose of humility. But that is your problem.

There is no one else reading or posting, here, not a soul, maybe we should both move on.

Daniel, you are giving me power I do not have. Judgment on where anyone of us goes is reserved for God alone.

What I cannot understand is what you base your Christianity on? How do you decide on what you will and will not accept and where do you get your standard from? Since it is not God's word is it your own subjective opinion? Do you make the rules? Do you call truth true, or is it true whether you believe it or not?

Peter

Clishces and platitudes; platitudes and cliches. And endless Bible-quoting, and endless and profound assurance that you have all the answers as God's spokesman on Earth. I am not impressed. And so, Peter, as God's agent on Earth, go ahead and cast me into Hell.

Evening Nuh-uh,

YOU: "First of all, your quotes don’t back up your claim that the Lord Himself told us WHEN the beginning of God's creation was. Unless, of course, you mean THE BEGINNING, which doesn’t require scripture to figure out. They also were not created male and female FIRST anyway."

Well, he asks us to worship Him with our minds.

If He discloses that man was around in the beginning of His creation, and if the genealogies trace Jesus' human lineage back to the first man, Adam, then we can get a rough idea of when that came about. WE know that there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to Christ. That is forty-two generations. (Matthew 1:17) We also know the linage from Abraham to Adam. That is recorded in Luke 3:34-38 and also in various places in the Old Testament such as Genesis 5 and 10 to name two.

YOU: "According to Genesis: “3 And God said: Be light made. And light was made. 4 And God saw the light that it was good; and he divided the light from the darkness. 5 And he called the light Day, and the darkness Night; and there was evening and morning one day.”

“10 And God called the dry land, Earth; and the gathering together of the waters, he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

6 "A firmament"... By this name is here understood the whole space between the earth, and the highest stars. The lower part of which divideth the waters that are upon the earth, from those that are above in the clouds.

11 And he said: Let the earth bring forth the green herb, and such as may seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after its kind, which may have seed in itself upon the earth. And it was so done. 12 And the earth brought forth the green herb, and such as yieldeth seed according to its kind, and the tree that beareth fruit, having seed each one according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.”"

YOU: "There was morning and there was night the first day, but the Earth itself was not created until the third day. So, the idea of the first two days being only 48 hours does not stand up to scrutiny. I have NO REASON to believe as you do, but still believe that we are both Christians."

End of quote.

Genesis 1:1-2 is an introduction. In those statements God creates the heavens and the earth first. Verse 2 informs us that the earth was formless and void and darkness was over the surface of the deep. Verses 3 to the end of the chapter is an explanation on each specific twenty four hour period of creation, after the creation of the heavens and the earth, starting with the creation of light and proceeding onwards.

Another word for earth is land. There is no contradiction between the first statement and preceding statements. In one place it means this terrestrial ball, in another the ground or land. It is just like the word "world" or the word "all" in Scripture. They have a variety of meanings depending on context. For instance, the word all can be used without distinction to mean every man, woman and child on the face of the earth, or it can mean within a category or kind, like all peoples, meaning people from every tribe and language and nation of the world.

YOU: "Peter, you really remind me of her. Turning one’s back on common sense and/or reason , which are gifts from God is not better than what I believe even if I am wrong. In any event, you are not right simply by nature of your inability to be humble."

I can say the same of you, Nuh-uh in your willingness to believe what man tells you. You lack godly wisdom.

I am using the reasoning abilities that God has given me. God is our Creator and He does not make mistakes; not the God I worship. He is infinite in His understanding. The question is why don't you believe Him? Are you always going to trust the views of man over your Creator?

YOU: "Yes, we are asked to proclaim the message also. I agree, but not by “showing them why their worldview does not stand the test of sensibility” and claiming I have stuck my “neck on the chopping” block when they are INEVITABLY not receptive."

Whether they are receptive or not is not up to me, or you, but up to God. We can only be faithful in proclaiming His good news to the world. We don't save, He does. (Matthew 1:21; Ephesians 2:8, 9) Notice who does the action; notice who is sovereign.

YOU: "Sticking your neck on the chopping block is standing by your faith even under threat of death, not having to deal with fallout for bad manners and condescension. You are not a martyr yet my friend."

It involves the whole gambit Nuh-uh. That includes persecution. The Lord Himself gave us instruction in the Beatitudes. (Matthew 5:3-12)

Paul is a prime example. (1 Corinthians 9:16-18; Romans 1:14-17; Acts 9:15, 16) How many times during his life did he barely escape death for preaching the gospel? Needless to say he was persecuted before he was martyred. (Romans 8:35) How many times did he reason with the Jews or gentiles? Acts 17 is a prime example.

YOU: "I believe in living my life in such a way that if someone asks , “Why are you so content”, I can credit my faith. If they want to know specifics, I am more than happy to share. If someone comes to me with a problem, among other practical advice I might add, “don’t forget to turn to you faith”. If they want to know about mine, or why I would turn to it, I will explain. No one would ever ask if my approach is “you are wrong, not sensible and you need to know why”."

"How, then, can they call on the One they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent?...Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message and the message is heard through the word of Christ." (Romans 10:14, 15, 17)

Hi Daniel,

I wasn't going to reply to what you said in your last post, but I started thinking about it and I think it deserves a response. I do not know how long you have been a professing Christian, what exactly your beliefs are concerning the Scriptures, but I know this, I'm not going to use flattery when you are condoning falsehood. Granted, I could have used a more gentile approach, but I wanted to wake you, Arminius and Nuh-uh from your slumbers. I was hoping we could engage in some Biblical discussion on why you are saying the things you are, on why you believe that science trumps the word of God, for He created the whole universe and understands perfectly how it was made to the last detail. Scripture claims to be the infallible inerrant word of God and as such is accurate and speaks the truth on all things, including its historicity, ethics and science where it addresses these issues.

If you want to question the veracity of His word and put it to the test, I wish you would not try to disguise it as humility or tolerance, because when you do you fall into the trap of the relativist. Why would I want to compromise His truth as the objective external standard of all truth in order to tolerate falsehood? I'm trying to understand how it is possible to confess that you are a Christian and yet not follow the teachings of your Founder? It seems like you are practicing duplicity. You are trying to make friends with the philosophies of this world to appear tolerant and respectful of others, but wWhen you do this you compromise the truth of God.

Relativism and Christianity do not go well together. To do and believe what seems right to you is to go against the truth of Scripture. As a brother in Christ I am calling you to reason this out by God's word, not by human standards.

Relativism is a revolt against God. You are in effect saying that you know better than the God who put the entire universe together and has perfect understanding of it and is not correct in His revelation to you.

Your statements earlier show me that you do not understand the teachings of Christ, so I figure that you are young to the Christian faith and have received your training from a liberal source. That is why I offered to discuss our differences by the use of Scripture. Your response shows me an immaturity in knowing what you believe or why. You are believing what you prefer to believe, rather than trusting the word of God. That is like trying to manipulate what God has said. If you think I am wrong in what I have said, use the Scriptures to show me why. If you are rightly interpreting His word and are able to convince me of such, I will apologize sincerely. But what you are doing is dismissing what I have said as Biblical without showing me why it is not so in Scripture. God is not vague in His revelation of Himself and of our condition before Him.

Just because the world, as a whole has fallen for the idea of relativism, that truth is relative, what you make it, keep your head about you, test everything and hold on to what is good. Don't practice dishonesty by misinterpreting the Bible, find out what it really says, for God's Word is about truth, and our worship of Him relies on an accurate understanding of who He is and what He has done. (John 4:23-24; John 8:23-25) Don't be deceived by worldly standards. Relativism leads to totalitarianism or to anarchy. When everyone does what is right in their own eyes (Judges 21:25; 17:6), then truth is perceived whatever you make it to be, where my truth is different from your truth, when something is true for me but something else contradictory is equally true for you, we are on the path to utter chaos.

"Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the One who now holds it back will continue to do so till He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refuse to believe the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that they will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness." (2 Thessalonians 2:3-12)

Daniel, make sure you are preaching the truth of the Gospel instead of trying to win the approval of men. (Galatians 1:6-12)

As the apostle Paul said,

"For the appeal we make does not spring from error or impure motives, nor are we trying to trick you. On the contrary, we speak as men approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please men but God, who tests our hearts. You know we never used flattery, nor did we put on a mask to cover up greed - God is our witness. We were not looking for praise from men, not from you or anyone else." (1Thessalonians 2:3-6)

The gospel is not an inclusive message. All those who do not believe will not be saved.

"If anyone is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His Father's glory with the holy angels." (Mark 8:38)

"He who is not for me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters." (Matthew 12:30)

"Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Jude 3, 4)

"But dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, 'In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.' These are men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. But you, dear friends, build yourself up in the most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of the Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life." (Jude 17-21)

"In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evil men and imposers will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:12-17)

Daniel, when a Christian, a follower of Jesus Christ, a disciple of the Lord, ignores or will not engage in Scripture to instruct and correct and train someone who he believes is not preaching according to God's word, something is wrong. If you cannot show me from His standard why I err, but want to pass judgment from your own wisdom the signal goes up.

Pauls admonition to Timothy was,

"Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers." (1 Timothy 4:16)

I hope you do not take His Word for granted. You are on a faith forum, that for the most part is going to be hostile to the message of the cross. (1 Corinthians 1:18- 2:16) Don't settle for a standard that is second best, find out what God says brother.

Peter Huff

You are free to quote the Bible all you want. But you are a very wearisome guy. You are rude, even to the point of being obnoxious; you reserve that right for yourself, but when I am honest here, and say my reaction to your rudeness, then all of a sudden, I am the bad guy.

I think, in your demeanor, you are rude, obnoxious, and off-putting. And I'm a Christian! Think of how atheists and non-Christians must perceive you.

You are not making any headway with your current style of arguing. Maybe you should rethink things and try a different. way.

YOU: "The trouble is you more often don’t say anything else that makes me believe that YOU actually believe this."

I'm not following you here.

YOU: "You claim to know what I am mistaken about in the midst of asking me what that actually is."

That is just a means I use to get you to see that your rational does not make sense. Or, when you say something, such as, the Bible is not inerrant, I could ask you how you know this to draw out a response and make you commit to your position. That way I come to see how you think on a specific subject. In that way I can also test what you believe about the Word of God.

YOU: "You ask questions crafted around the desired answers and change the subject in response to challenges of your claims."

Half the time I find you do not answer my question, so I rephrase the question to try to get to the bottom of your thinking.

YOU: "When I questioned you about such things you responded directly to me with questions of what I believe as a matter of faith. I had already stated that things I believe on faith alone I know I cannot prove, but that I also will not claim that the can be proven…least of which by pointing to scripture. By pointing to scripture I may be able to indicate WHY I believe it, but not as PROOF of it’s truth. I’ll even accept that it is proof of why I believe, but again, not that it is proof of my belief being true."

The point I am trying to make to you is that your worldview is inconsistent and at times contradictory. Faith, my friend, is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see (Hebrews 11:1). You do not seem sure of what you believe. You do not even know which words of the Bible are true if you do not take the whole of it as God's infallible and inerrant word. You pick and choose which verses you are going to believe in as true and someone else picks those exact same verses as false. So who is right? The point I make is that either the whole Bible is what it says it is, God's revelation to us, preserved by Him, or it is not something we can put our faith (trust) in because if we are wrong in believing that one verse is not true, we can be equally wrong as to whether other verses are true.

YOU: "This little exchange between you and Daniel is an excellent example:

DANIEL: "When you seek to cast doubt on evolution, and ridicule people who believe it, you are really making a statement loud and clear: "I am ignorant." And you are undermining the credibility of Christians and Christianity because you imply that all Christians must believe as you do, when, in fact, they do not."

ME: "Yes I am casting doubt on evolution because it is not true. No I am not undermining the credibility of the Christian message Daniel. You are the one putting doubt on the character of God and validity of God's word."

The Lord Himself told us when the beginning of God's creation was,

"But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.' (Mark 10:6)

"'Haven't you read,' He replied, 'that at the beginning the Creator made them male and female,' (Matthew 19:4)

YOU: "First of all, your quotes don’t back up your claim that the Lord Himself told us WHEN the beginning of God's creation was.

God uses the words, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" to signify the start of His creation. Would you grant that or not? He tells us that He spoke into existence the physical universe by such phrases/references as "God said" nine times at a quick scan in the first chapter of Genesis. Psalm 33:6,9 confirms the exact same thing as do other passages,

"By the word of the LORD were the heavens made, their starry host by the breath of His mouth...For He spoke, and it came to be."

Are these verses clear and plain to you or would you like to dispute the meaning of them? (See also Psalm 148:5; Hebrews 11:3)

So when Jesus refers to "'Haven't you read,' He replied, 'that at the beginning the Creator made them male and female" what beginning do you believe Jesus is referring to? Let's see how you read something into the Scriptures that are not there. Jesus is referring to the account of creation that is laid out in the first three chapters of Genesis.

The word "yom" is used 2,225 times in the Old Testament, mostly meaning an ordinary day.

The phrase "evening and morning" break down the meaning even more specifically. The term evening and morning is used in 37 verses outside of Genesis, every time describing a normal day. Why would the meaning change here?

In the hundreds of times that the word "yom" is used in conjunction with numbers (the first day, the second day, etc) it never means anything other than a normal day. Why would it change in Genesis?

The Hebrew word for ages is not yom but olam.

When God gives the commandment to work six days and rest on the seventh and gives Himself as the example by citing how long it took Him to create the heavens and the earth, the seas, and ALL THAT IS IN THEM, how would the Israelites know how long this was if it was not earthly days that God created in? Exodus 20:11

The Bible tells us that death came into this world by the disobedience of one man. Therefore it follows that man was on this earth at the beginning of God's creation.

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin" (Romans 5:12)

Hundreds, if not thousands of verses throughout the two testaments treat the Genesis accounts as historical events.

These are just a few of the reasons why a correct interpretation of Scripture reveals a young earth. We can get into it further if you like.

YOU: " Unless, of course, you mean THE BEGINNING, which doesn’t require scripture to figure out. They also were not created male and female FIRST anyway."

I don't follow the drift of what you are saying here.

YOU: "I agree fully with Daniel that you undermine the Christian message. I do not believe as you do, but am a Christian. You claim to KNOW the mind of God himself. You are not just allowed to interpret scripture, but YOUR interpretation is the only RIGHT one. You question my Christianity because I can believe that God is the creator and one of his methods is evolution of the species."

Please give me examples of undermining Scripture. Scripture is undermined when you read a meaning into the text that is not there, when you make God say something that He did not say, when you go counter to the revelation of God as to the truthfulness of His Word, when you try to supply metaphor to everything in the Bible, without just cause to do so, when you rely on what man says over and above what God has revealed.

As for knowing the mind of Christ, Scripture both reveals and instructs us to be like minded (Philippians 2:1-5), to find out what is pleasing to God (Galatians 1:10; 1 Thessalonians 4:1; 1 Timothy 2:3, etc), and how we can know God (Ephesians 3:19; Colossians 2:3; 2 Peter 3:18; 1 John, etc)

I question for a number of reasons, only one of which is your belief that God uses macro-evolution to create.

YOU: "Furthermore, the actual statements you make about evolution itself indicate that you don’t really know what it is, so denouncing it is just a case of you preferring what someone else had to say about it…which according to you is not the same as looking to God for the answers. I am not aware of any scripture where God either denounces evolution, nor reveals his METHODS of creation.
You quote from Genesis: For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..." (Exodus 20:11)

I spent years testing the claims of evolution and over twenty years in Bible study. I know enough about evolution to know it is not true.

YOU: "There is no claim that they are 24-hour days though. After all, what is a 24-hour day? The earth making a complete turn."

See my reply above.

I'm getting tired so I will continue tomorrow with you reasoning, the Lord willing.

Here's some advice that Paul offered Timothy,

"Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers." (1 Timothy 4:16)

Daniel, why are you speaking for Nuh-uh? This is a faith forum. Aren't I entitled to a say? Are you the censor here who decided for others? Is your opinion the only one that counts? I am prepared to shake the dust of my feet concerning you, but Nuh-uh has not told me to get lost yet. But thanks for your graciousness anyway!

Nuh-uh, you said,

"You pointing to God as the one who hold the answers is good. The problem here is that you reinforce the point we are making. The questions are not worth answering nor are the arguments valid.

"What does pointing to God as the one with the answers have to do with you asking questions that are contrived in such a way that the ONLY answer is the one YOU want? Furthermore, when you ask, “How do you know they are true or right? Do you just prefer what they have to say?”, you give a perfect example. You SAY you point to God as the on with the answers, but what reason do I have to believe that he actually gave them to you? Because I know YOU “are true and right”? Because I “prefer” what YOU have to say?"

I think it is very relevant that God has given us a trustworthy standard, His Word. Without an absolute standard that has been revealed to mankind it is every man's opinion for himself, exactly what someone who does not believe that the Scriptures are infallible is trying to establish, his standard over God's. So I appeal to His standard as the only way to make sense of morality or truth. It is the condition for morality and making sense of this world.

What must recognize that words in context have certain meaning, so it is not a matter of what I have to say, but actually what God says in the Bible.

YOU: "You further post: “And Scripture reveals the true meaning for Scripture reveals Scripture.”

YOU: "This is much like someone saying, “The Bible is the word of God because the Bible says so.”

It is also like a scientist saying science proves science because it is scientific. Look hard enough and you will find that this is the nature of reasoning. It is circular. But what is the standard used?

YOU: "I do not accept this. Rather I believe that the Bible is the word of God because my faith tells me so. However, if another person’s faith tells them differently, I am not going to assert to them that they are flat out wrong and back it up with, “The Bible is the word of God because the Bible says so”, or “Scripture reveals the true meaning for Scripture reveals Scripture.”"

Really! How does your faith tell you this Nuh-uh? Does it say, "I believe the Bible because nobody can make sense of it so it must be the word of God?" Does it say, "It is just another religious book like so many other religious books that is used by the God of the universe to convey spiritual truths. It's not based on history or reality, just mythology and metaphor?" Or does it say, "I believe the Bible because it is true in what it says?"

What does your faith rest on, blindness? You can't see God so how do you know He exists? Because you feel Him? How do you know your feelings are real? Somebody else believes the exact opposite that you do, that there is no God. Are they right too? Can you both be right? Can there actually be a God and not be a God at the same time? Not logically, but you try to live as if logic is valid. Without it nothing could be made sense of. Where does logic come from? Did it just happen by a random chance process of evolution, like the atheist believes? Are we all just biological machines? Likewise if God speaks in contradictions then He would not be consistent in what He said and we would not know what to believe. This is not the case.

What do you base you belief in God in, if not on His infallible inerrant, trustworthy Word of truth?

Do you believe that only some of the Bible is true? If so, which verses do you decide to believe as true? What happens if someone who believes in the same manner, believes that you are wrong, other verses are the ones that are true? Who decides? Who is right?

No my friend, truth does not depend on yours or my personal feelings, it depends on whether something is true to what is real or not, regardless of whether someone happens to believe or not. Either God's word is true or it is not. You can't have it both ways. Which is it for you?

What do these words mean to you,

"Every word of God is flawless" (Proverbs 30:5)

"All Your words are true" (Psalm 119:160)

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away." (Matthew 24:35)

"I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappears, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the LAW until everything is accomplished." (Matthew 5:18)

"Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth." (John 17:17)

"If you remain in Me and My words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you." (John 15:7)

God is real, whether someone believes in Him or not. People deny the God of Scripture because they want to be the ones in control.

YOU: "I think your beliefs are good, but your assertion that YOU are right and any differing belief is wrong is absurd."

If I am right then logically any differing belief is wrong and absurd. I cannot be right and wrong at the same time. It is not logical. But the proof is not what I say, but what the God of the Scriptures says. And I contend that He is necessary for anything to be made sense of, whether that be logic, truth, ethics, origins, the universality of nature, etc.

"My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine sounding arguments." (Colossians 2:2-4)

YOU: "If there were NO subjectivity in the meaning of what is written in the Bible there would be ONLY ONE Christian denomination. There are, as we both know, many."

Yes there are many denominations, because people think that they can read into the Scriptures their own meaning, like you are trying to do. You need to find out what God actually is saying in His word; not what you want it to say.

See 2 Corinthians 4:2; 1 Thessalonians 2:13

ME: "The Bible deals with actual historic people, places and events. The Resurrection is an historical happening. What do you find unhistorical about the Bible?"

YOU: "A Tale of Two Cities, and Gone With the Wind deal with actual historical places and events, but they are not history books."

Yes they do, but the characters are pure fiction. Jesus Christ is a real Person. There is a great difference between what comes out of someones mind and what really is.

"Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be godly." (1 Timothy 4:7)

What you, Nuh-uh are missing by not paying careful attention to Scripture is what Paul warned of in 2 Timothy 4:2-4,

"Preach the Word: be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage - with great patience and careful instruction. For a time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want them to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

Or

2 Peter 1:19,

And we have the Word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts."

YOU: "I believe in the mystery of the resurrection, but do not run around insisting that it is indisputably true and can be proven…least of which by way of what is written in the Bible. I also don’t believe that the Bible was meant to be used this way. I do not believe that the timeline of the Bible was intended to be SO accurate as to be able to determine the age of the earth by counting backward through the family trees."

Believing in the Resurrection is a good start, but what do you believe about it? If it is not indisputable truth how do you know it is true at all? Can you not trust that God speaks only what is true? (Hebrews 6:16-19)

The Bible does speak in terms of generalities and also specifically about the age of the earth. We know that man was here in the beginning (2 Peter 3:3-7; Romans 1:19-20; Matthew 19:4; Mark 10:6, etc.), that death entered the world from man's sin (Romans 5:12), that the earthly lineage of Jesus is traced back to Adam. (Luke 3:23-38)

The genealogies throughout the Bible are not just there so that we can fall asleep over them, but serve the purpose of tracing the lineage of Jesus to the time of Adam, through a certain family tree.

I'm going to continue of the next post, this is getting way too long.

Peter Huff

Please don't waste your time here with your Bible-quotin' cliches. Your arguments are meant for a Sunday School class, where everyone present already believes exactly as you do. Save it for Sunday. Thanks

Well Nuh-uh, I give you credit for responding with Scripture and thanks for your blessings!

5:30 a.m. comes early so I will respond to what you have to say later on this week. Thanks for the effort. Let's see how your interpretation holds up to the reasoning of the Scriptures.

Blessings in Christ Jesus the Lord!

Huh-uh

Your post was very impressive. I wanted to highlight something you said to contrast it to Peter Huff's views:

I have no proof of my faith; I seek no proof; and I offer no proof; that is why I call it faith. Peter Huff is working feverishly, and futiley to prove everything he says, but he will not and cannot succeed.

And a last thought, if you have confidence in the positions that you hold, that gives you alot of strength. I for instance, do not mind hearing Susan Jacoby's opinions because I have confidence in my own. In her many writings here, I have never read a single thing that has challenged my core belief about Christianity, nor insulted, me, as a Christian, at all. In fact, I find her to be a pretty polite, person.

So, it makes me wonder, at all the angry Christians who perceive hate in her writing, when I do not see anything like that, at all.

Arminus & Daniel (BTW, that's my REAL name)

It's been nice getting to see posts from people who are faith affirming.

It is, at the very least, nice to see the forum being used for its intended purpose. Sometimes it can be so hateful in here, don't you think?

Bless you both.

P.S. Bless you too Peter Huff.

Peter Huff,

Daniel posted: "I have to agree with the others, that your arguments and questions are not worth answering. You are not really giving any kinds of valid arguments, nor making any valid points, at all."

You responded: “Well Daniel, what do you base standards on? I point to God as the one who holds the answers. You just agree with others. How do you know they are true or right? Do you just prefer what they have to say? Is there a basis for truth?”

You pointing to God as the one who hold the answers is good. The problem here is that you reinforce the point we are making. The questions are not worth answering nor are the arguments valid.

What does pointing to God as the one with the answers have to do with you asking questions that are contrived in such a way that the ONLY answer is the one YOU want? Furthermore, when you ask, “How do you know they are true or right? Do you just prefer what they have to say?”, you give a perfect example. You SAY you point to God as the on with the answers, but what reason do I have to believe that he actually gave them to you? Because I know YOU “are true and right”? Because I “prefer” what YOU have to say?

Makes no sense.

You further post: “And Scripture reveals the true meaning for Scripture reveals Scripture.”

This is much like someone saying, “The Bible is the word of God because the Bible says so.”

I do not accept this. Rather I believe that the Bible is the word of God because my faith tells me so. However, if another person’s faith tells them differently, I am not going to assert to them that they are flat out wrong and back it up with, “The Bible is the word of God because the Bible says so”, or “Scripture reveals the true meaning for Scripture reveals Scripture.”

I think your beliefs are good, but your assertion that YOU are right and any differing belief is wrong is absurd.

If there were NO subjectivity in the meaning of what is written in the Bible there would be ONLY ONE Christian denomination. There are, as we both know, many.

You said, in your post directed to me, “The Bible deals with actual historic people, places and events. The Resurrection is an historical happening. What do you find unhistorical about the Bible?”

A Tale of Two Cities, and Gone With the Wind deal with actual historical places and events, but they are not history books.

I believe in the mystery of the resurrection, but do not run around insisting that it is indisputably true and can be proven…least of which by way of what is written in the Bible. I also don’t believe that the Bible was meant to be used this way. I do not believe that the timeline of the Bible was intended to be SO accurate as to be able to determine the age of the earth by counting backward through the family trees.

You say: “What I have said is that the plain or literal meaning of a passage is to be taken as such where there is warrant to do so. Where there is an historical account it is to be taken as an historical account, where the language is figurative or poetic the text is to be taken as such.”

One thing I can agree with you on is encapsulated there. The trouble is you more often don’t say anything else that makes me believe that YOU actually believe this. You claim to know what I am mistaken about in the midst of asking me what that actually is. You ask questions crafted around the desired answers and change the subject in response to challenges of your claims.

When I questioned you about such things you responded directly to me with questions of what I believe as a matter of faith. I had already stated that things I believe on faith alone I know I cannot prove, but that I also will not claim that the can be proven…least of which by pointing to scripture. By pointing to scripture I may be able to indicate WHY I believe it, but not as PROOF of it’s truth. I’ll even accept that it is proof of why I believe, but again, not that it is proof of my belief being true.

This little exchange between you and Daniel is an excellent example:

YOU (meaning Daniel): "When you seek to cast doubt on evolution, and ridicule people who believe it, you are really making a statement loud and clear: "I am ignorant." And you are undermining the credibility of Christians and Christianity because you imply that all Christians must believe as you do, when, in fact, they do not."

Yes I am casting doubt on evolution because it is not true. No I am not undermining the credibility of the Christian message Daniel. You are the one putting doubt on the character of God and validity of God's word.

The Lord Himself told us when the beginning of God's creation was,

"But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.' (Mark 10:6)

"'Haven't you read,' He replied, 'that at the beginning the Creator made them male and female,' (Matthew 19:4)

First of all, your quotes don’t back up your claim that the Lord Himself told us WHEN the beginning of God's creation was. Unless, of course, you mean THE BEGINNING, which doesn’t require scripture to figure out. They also were not created male and female FIRST anyway.

I agree fully with Daniel that you undermine the Christian message. I do not believe as you do, but am a Christian. You claim to KNOW the mind of God himself. You are not just allowed to interpret scripture, but YOUR interpretation is the only RIGHT one. You question my Christianity because I can believe that God is the creator and one of his methods is evolution of the species.

Furthermore, the actual statements you make about evolution itself indicate that you don’t really know what it is, so denouncing it is just a case of you preferring what someone else had to say about it…which according to you is not the same as looking to God for the answers. I am not aware of any scripture where God either denounces evolution, nor reveals his METHODS of creation.
You quote from Genesis: For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..." (Exodus 20:11)

There is no claim that they are 24-hour days though. After all, what is a 24-hour day? The earth making a complete turn.

According to Genesis: “3 And God said: Be light made. And light was made. 4 And God saw the light that it was good; and he divided the light from the darkness. 5 And he called the light Day, and the darkness Night; and there was evening and morning one day.”

“10 And God called the dry land, Earth; and the gathering together of the waters, he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

6 "A firmament"... By this name is here understood the whole space between the earth, and the highest stars. The lower part of which divideth the waters that are upon the earth, from those that are above in the clouds.

11 And he said: Let the earth bring forth the green herb, and such as may seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after its kind, which may have seed in itself upon the earth. And it was so done. 12 And the earth brought forth the green herb, and such as yieldeth seed according to its kind, and the tree that beareth fruit, having seed each one according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.”

There was morning and there was night the first day, but the Earth itself was not created until the third day. So, the idea of the first two days being only 48 hours does not stand up to scrutiny. I have NO REASON to believe as you do, but still believe that we are both Christians.

You remind me of a neighbor I had when I lived in Orlando. Hurricane Charley was bearing down on us, the curfew was in effect, and there was nothing left to do but hunker down and pray for the best. Shortly before it got bad enough that you HAD to go inside once and for all, several of the neighbors were still chatting in the parking lot, as the landlord ran through taping windows that were not already done. One lady turned to me and asked, “Why is he taping the windows”? I explained why. Then she said, “Well I don’t want him to tape mine, it would be like saying I don’t trust God”. I then said to her, “Then shouldn’t you really sit on the ground in the middle of the parking lot to ride out the storm instead of seeking any shelter”? She said, “Well”. But ultimately she tried to stop the landlord from taping her windows anyway. He told her it was not optional, and as soon as he left she took it down.

Peter, you really remind me of her. Turning one’s back on common sense and/or reason , which are gifts from God is not better than what I believe even if I am wrong. In any event, you are not right simply by nature of your inability to be humble.

For example: “That is definitely true, but we are asked to proclaim the message as well. Sometimes that means sticking your neck on the chopping block in standing for truth. The people we talk with are usually not open to the truth of the gospel. All I am doing is planting seeds, Daniel, showing them why their worldview does not stand the test of sensibility.”

Yes, we are asked to proclaim the message also. I agree, but not by “showing them why their worldview does not stand the test of sensibility” and claiming I have stuck my “neck on the chopping” block when they are INEVITABLY not receptive.

Sticking your neck on the chopping block is standing by your faith even under threat of death, not having to deal with fallout for bad manners and condescension. You are not a martyr yet my friend.

I believe in living my life in such a way that if someone asks , “Why are you so content”, I can credit my faith. If they want to know specifics, I am more than happy to share. If someone comes to me with a problem, among other practical advice I might add, “don’t forget to turn to you faith”. If they want to know about mine, or why I would turn to it, I will explain. No one would ever ask if my approach is “you are wrong, not sensible and you need to know why”.

I doubt Peter Huff, not God. Peter Huff is not my God. Peter Huff who knows he is right on everything is not right on anything. Peter Huff who speaks for God knows very little about God.

Let God speak for himself.

Let people believe as they will; that is only common sense.

You cannot control other people's beliefs, thoughts, feelings, or emotions. If other people have beliefs, thoughts, feelings, and emotions that you do not like or agree with, then that is tough; there is nothing you can do about it.

You cannot compel an atheist to believe in God, if he does not. You cannot compel a heretic or an apostate (as I assusme you consider me to be) to comply with your personal orthodoxy; not by argument; not by force.

The most that you can force from a person is an insincere pretense of outward belief, that is not inwardly held. And in the past, Christian political authority was used to do just that, to force people, on penalty of torture or death, to "believe" that which they did not believe.

You cannot make me believe what I do not believe, and I cannot make you believe what you do not believe. My objection with the Peter Huff's of the world is the indoctrination of Jesus Christ into political machines which seek to promote worldy agendas of power and wealth, and to exclude and even destroy those who stand in the way of this political agenda, as enemies.

The fossil Peter Huff is still spreading his unctuous gibberish around and even finds some honest "discussion" partners. He still isn't tired of the monotonous: "How do you know? Who told you? You don't know, but I know, because I can quote the bible! I have the absolute, you don't"!

I wonder how far his kindergarten belief actually goes: Has he ever seen our little, photographed planet in Google Earth, where you can zoom through space millions of light years? Oops, there is no such thing, since it all began 6000 years ago, including our comparatively small own "home" galaxy, the Milky Way, spanning some 100.000 light years. Does he know what a light year is (our present rockets would need 75.000 years to reach the next star, Alpha Centauri, created by his god in one day (not to mention the billions of galaxies billions of light years away!). Btw, the distance to Alpha Centauri can be measured by simple trigonometry. But, I forgot, he "doesn't believe" in trigonometry: God changes all mathematical results. 2+2=5, I forgot.

Does he believe in the "firmament"? That is the place behind which heaven, aka sky, is supposed to be. Heaven "above" depends on whether you live in the US or Australia: Opposite directions, lol!

No, Peter, you are barking up the wrong tree.

The fossil Peter Huff is still spreading his silly gibberish around and even finds some honestly contradicting partners: "How do you know? Who told you? You don't know, but I know, because I can quote the bible!"

I wonder how far his kindergarten belief actually goes: Has he ever seen Google Earth, going through space millions of light years? Oops, there is no such thing, since it all began 6000 years ago,including our comparatively small own "home" galaxy, the Milky Way, spanning some 100.000 light years. Does he know what a light year is (our present rockets would need 75.000 years to reach the next star, Alpha Centauri, created by his god in one day. Btw, the distance to Alpha Centauri can be measured by simple trigonometry. But, I forgot, he "doesn't believe" in trigonometry.

Does he believe in the "firmament"? That is the place behind which heaven, aka sky, is supposed to be. Heaven "above" depends on if you live in the US or Australia: Opposite directions, lol!

No, Peter, you are barking up the wrong tree.

Sorry PaganPlace, I just realized I had not responded to your last post. Please, if you are wiling check in this weekend, since I am now pushed for time.

Hi Daniel,

YOU: "I have to agree with the others, that your arguments and questions are not worth answering. You are not really giving any kinds of valid arguments, nor making any valid points, at all."

Well Daniel, what do you base standards on? I point to God as the one who holds the answers. You just agree with others. How do you know they are true or right? Do you just prefer what they have to say? Is there a basis for truth? (John 18:37; 1:15-18, vs. 9; 14:6, etc)

The problem Daniel is when you compromise the Word of God all you are left with is subjective opinion. You may choose what parts you are going to take as being true, someone else may choose some entirely different verses or passages. The problem is when you do not take the whole as truth is you call God a liar. The word of God does not become subjective to the person reading the passage, to each persons private interpretation, but we are to derive the Author's intent out of the passage.

"And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe." (1 Thessalonians 2:13)

Do you believe that Daniel?

"Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." (2 Corinthians 4:2-4)

Do you believe that Daniel? Is it stated plainly enough for you? What do you believe it says? Does a cat have your tongue my friend?

"Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth." (John 17:17)

Do you believe that Daniel? How about you Nuh-um or you Arminius?

"All Your words are true; all Your righteous laws are eternal." (Psalm 119:160)

Do you believe that guys?

You guys are picking and choosing what you will and will not believe. What makes you right? The three of you are followers of Christ. Who are you actually following?

"It is a misguided, misplaced, and foolish question for a Christian to ask if the Bible is literally true from cover to cover; it is not a tabulation of yes/no, true/false, black and white data. Whatever I may have learned from the Bible, and whatever I might believe from the Bible, I must moderate and reconcile with all other sources of knowledge, which are many."

Where have I ever said the Bible is to be taken literally from cover to cover? As for it being true, which parts do you take as true and which do you take as false? How do you know? There are thousands of verses. How do you choose the true ones? Does someone else choose for you?

What I have said is that the plain or literal meaning of a passage is to be taken as such where there is warrant to do so. Where there is an historical account it is to be taken as an historical account, where the language is figurative or poetic the text is to be taken as such. And Scripture reveals the true meaning for Scripture reveals Scripture. It is its own interpreter. If God had not spoken plainly to us, in language that we could understand, then there would be no reason to believe what the Bible teaches, because everyone could come up with a different interpretation. But there is a correct meaning to the text, and to achieve it you must take out of the text the Author's intended meaning, not read something into the text that is not there. An understanding of the culture and customs is also important because Jesus was speaking plainly to the Jewish people who had a particular culture. There is only one true meaning although many applications. (2 Timothy 2:15; 3:16, 17)

YOU: "I know that evolution is true, but I wouldn't waste my time trying to get you to understand something which is perfectly clear to any educated person."

How do you know that Daniel? Which subjective person or body of people has convinced you of that? Do they have the handle on truth. As God said to Job (and these are not my words),

"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me if you know." (Job 38:4)

Did Paul not remind Timothy,

"Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: 'The Lord knows those who are His,' and, 'Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness." (2 Timothy 2:16-19)

If you do not have an accurate knowledge of God how will you know when you are straying from the truth brothers in Christ? You can only get an accurate knowledge by studying His Word and rightly interpreting it. But you keep contradicting what He has revealed.

YOU: "When you seek to cast doubt on evolution, and ridicule people who believe it, you are really making a statement loud and clear: "I am ignorant." And you are undermining the credibility of Christians and Christianity because you imply that all Christians must believe as you do, when, in fact, they do not."

Yes I am casting doubt on evolution because it is not true. No I am not undermining the credibility of the Christian message Daniel. You are the one putting doubt on the character of God and validity of God's word.

The Lord Himself told us when the beginning of God's creation was,

"But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.' (Mark 10:6)

"'Haven't you read,' He replied, 'that at the beginning the Creator made them male and female,' (Matthew 19:4)

Do you not think that Jesus would know when the beginning was, or do you not believe that He made everything Daniel?

"Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made. In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it." (John 1:3-5)

The reason they don't understand it is because they cast doubt on the veracity of God. "Did God really say?" Yes He did Daniel.

God Himself confirms how long it took to create all that is,

"For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..." (Exodus 20:11)

Is the language not plain enough for you Daniel? Do you wish to trust the fallible reasoning of men, rather than your Creator Daniel?

YOU: "I agree with Nuh-uh, the main way to make your arguments is by the example of the life that you lead."

That is definitely true, but we are asked to proclaim the message as well. Sometimes that means sticking your neck on the chopping block in standing for truth. The people we talk with are usually not open to the truth of the gospel. All I am doing is planting seeds, Daniel, showing them why their worldview does not stand the test of sensibility. Who am I? Paul sums it up,

"What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe - as the Lord has assigned to each his task. I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow.. The man who plants and the man who waters each has a purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor." (1 Corinthians 3"5-8)

A tad bit of advice to the three of you from the Scriptures,

"Do not deceive yourselves. If anyone of you thinks he is wise by the standard of this age, he should become a 'fool' so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness", and again,, "Thge Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile." (1 Corinthians 3:18-20)

I appeal to the God of the Bible because He is the condition to make sensible and intelligent the truth of the matter. God requires in each one of His people that we be diligent in the study of His Word. (Deuteronomy 6)

My hope is that He gives the three of you ears to hear, and a repentant heart for doubting Him.

Arminius, and Nuh-uh! At last: two kindred souls.

Dear Peter Huff,

I have to agree with the others, that your arguments and questions are not worth answering. You are not really giving any kinds of valid arguments, nor making any valid points, at all. That which you call arguments are really revelations regarding your inner predisposition.

Your Christianity is framed in dominance and submission, authoritarianiam, anger, jealouly, and punishment. It is not a universal "religion" but something very specific to you. And I notice, over and over, that you presume to speak for God. You will always lose me when you do that. When I hear someone speaking for God, I just give up and say, "I'm out."

You seem shocked that everyone does not believe as you do. Why? In the 16th and 17th centuries, Christians battled each other and killed each other by the thousands, perhaps by the millions, in France, Spain, Egland, and Germany. It was not Christians fighting the Muslims, nor Christians fighting the atheists, nor the Secular Humanists; it was Christians fighting Christians. You seem perfectly happy to go down that road again. You seem unable to stop yourself.

It is a misguided, misplaced, and foolish question for a Christian to ask if the Bible is literally true from cover to cover; it is not a tabulation of yes/no, true/false, black and white data. Whatever I may have learned from the Bible, and whatever I might believe from the Bible, I must moderate and reconcile with all other sources of knowledge, which are many.

I know that evolution is true, but I wouldn't waste my time trying to get you to understand something which is perfectly clear to any educated person. When you seek to cast doubt on evolution, and ridicule people who believe it, you are really making a statement loud and clear: "I am ignorant." And you are undermining the credibility of Christians and Christianity because you imply that all Christians must believe as you do, when, in fact, they do not.

I agree with Nuh-uh, the main way to make your arguments is by the example of the life that you lead.

Athena, Athena, Athena,

Repetition is a one of the keys to education. I trust you read to the bottom of the list of acts of terror. And note, I do update the list and it now covers World War II to the present.

Hard to know where to start. A lot has been said since last we chatted.

Nuh-uh, you said,

"Arminius,

Thank you for the complement. I am a Christian too.

However, as in the case of Peter Huff, I do not believe that ALL claims made by people claiming to be Christian are accurate, fair or right."

You are right there Nuh-uh. Case in point, 2 Corinthians 13:5, 6

"Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you - unless, of course you fail the test? And I trust that you will discover that we have not failed the test."

You, Arminius and Daniel are all claiming to be Christians. I would like to know what that actually means to the three of you. How do you discern the difference between truth and falsehood since you you talk about accuracy, fairness and doing what is right. Whose right? What you perceive as right? Is your standard absolute that you can say you are right?

If your standard is God's word we can talk about why you think I am wrong (Please include the verse). If it is yourself or your subjective opinion on truth, accuracy, fairness, doing right, what do you base your judgments of these matters on?

Nuh-uh, you also said,

"One more thing...

I actually find it blasphemous to claim that the Bible is a history book, atlas, science book, encyclopedia, etc."

It is a history about God's dealings with mankind, about His plan of redemption in reaching out to a fallen race because mankind has violated His trust in our sin against Him. God takes this seriously, because when we do sin we not only disrupt our relationship with Him, but also with others and ourselves. God has taken the initiative in restoring that relationship with Him and that is by the means of sending His Son into the world. The Bible deals with actual historic people, places and events. The Resurrection is an historical happening. What do you find unhistorical about the Bible?

"I believe it is the Christian guide to salvation, but to use it as you see fit to accost other people, or worse...REASON...is abuse of it. I cannot imagine that this pleases God."

Christians should be united in the truth by sharing and proclaiming that truth to the world. As you say, "I believe" but what do you place that belief in, your own reasoning ability or that of God Himself?

An "On Faith" forum is a place to share the good news and expose falsehood. Remember that to accurately understand the Christian message is to correctly interpret the Word of God. I don't know where you are placing your faith in, but it does not resemble the gospel message. (Galatians 1:6-10, esp. 10) Make sure you have the right message my friend. You cannot afford to be wrong.

Our Lord Himself confronted false prophets and mistaken belief. The Apostles did the same. Paul went into synagogues to reason with the Jews on numerous occasions (Acts 13:14; 14:1-3, 21, 22; 15:1-2; 17:2-4, 11, 13, 17) as well as with the Gentiles. (Acts 17:22-34)

The examples continue, but the point is that people were reasoned with the apostles even to the point of sharp disputes over the word of God.

"They preached the gospel in the city and won over a large number of disciples. Then they returned to Lysta, Iconium and Antioch, strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true to the faith." (Acts 14:21-22)

Notice the historical places.

"As his custom was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving that the Christ had to suffer and rise from the dead." (Acts 17:2,3)

Are you willing to reason with me from the Scriptures Nuh-um, Daniel, Arminius?

"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." (Acts 17:11)

This verse brings up lots of important issues, but please note that they used the Scriptures to check and see if what Paul was saying was true. That is their source of truth. What is yours as Christian brothers, for you are proclaiming that you are Christians?

What is your bases for saying that I am not being Biblical Nuh-uh? Because I am confronting your false views on many issues? Would I rather see you continue in error? No! I'm not saying this out of malice or hatred, but out of concern for the truth of Scripture and in the hope that God will expose the errors, including mine when they go against His Word.

Again, I see the atheist and pagan using morality but not being able to account for it. The same goes for the three of you if you do not believe the absolute standard that is the Word of God.

Arminius, what are you teaching? You say,

"We are very close in our beliefs. Teach by example, make one's life a prayer, not a shouting in the marketplace."

Whose example are you using? If it is Christ's how can you be sure that you are correctly interpreting what He said?

You also said,

"My point there was in fact that you can't 'love your neighbors' if you run around like Peter screaming they must be horrid, evil, beastly animals if they don't obey your 'absolute laws.'"

Do you think I would be showing love if I constantly lied to my neighbor and sugar coated the gospel message? I point out to PaganPlace and others what God says in His Word, because there is no higher source of appeal. There is only one way to God, man has done horrid things to his/her fellow man in his/her rebellion to the Creator. That is just a biblical fact. The absolute laws I talk about are not mine, they do not come from me, but by them I can make sense out of man's inhumanity to man.

In your reply to PaganPlace you said,

"Paganplace,
Thanks, and you are right to distrust absolutes."

Are you absolutely sure of that Arminius? If not absolutely sure of that statement how sure are you? How "right" are you? You banter around truth claims, but what is your source for truth?

"'The Bible is true' is a postulate only within a fundamentalist system of belief, and cannot be applied to other systems."

God is the source of what is absolute Arminius. Without His revelation all you have said is just mere opinion that does not have meaning other than what you can force on others or agree with others upon. But in such a case don't tell me it is true or valid or "right." There is no such thing without absolutes.

Truth does not contradict what is real. You are a walking contradiction because you keep positing truth statements without having a solid standard on which to base them on, one that does not change.

CCNL, CCNL, CCNL...

Nichols and McVeigh were caught prior to 9/11, which was Clinton's watch. OBL may still be "hiding in a cave", but he's not in custody after 5+ years of hunting for him. Northern Ireland's peace process was also a triumph of the Clinton administration. Eric Rudolph hid out in the mountains of North Carolina with the help of good Christians like yourself, who considered him to be a hero. Libya's renouncement of terrorism had less to do with the "War on Terror" and more to do with their economy going into the crapper.

With all of the repeated cutting and pasting that you do, how often do you have to replace the CTRL C and CTRL V keys on your keyboard? It just proves that you don't have an original thought. You just keep recycling the same old garbage.

Athena,

Information to broaden the historical scope of terror:

A Partial Body Count and why "Until the koran is deflawed, no one is safe!!!!

1) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens,

2) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, 4000 US troops and 77,573 – 84,502 Iraqi civilians http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

3) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

4) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

5) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

6) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

7) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

Other elements of our War on Terror:

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

2. Iran is being been contained. (beside containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

3. Libya has become almost civil. Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they recently threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!!

4. North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. With the opening up of rail traffic between North and South Korea after 50 years and with the assistance of the US Navy in retrieving NK ships and personnel, a fresh sense of civility is afoot.

5. Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

6. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords and the Annapolis Peace Conference is at least somewhat successful.

7. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

8. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghahistan and Pakistan.

9.Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

10. Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

11. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

12. Islamic Sudan, Darfur and Somalia are still terror hot spots.

13. Although a bit dated, the terror and torture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends.

14. And of course the bloody terror brought about the Japanese, Nazis and Communists was with great difficulty eliminated by the good guys.

I think I know a little bit more than you do about Saddam and what he did or did not have. Those "gassed Kurds" were gassed in the 1980's, with chemical weapons that WE gave him. Look up "Donald Rumsfeld" and "Saddam Hussein" for the proof. So... why did we go after Saddam for something that he did in the 1980s, but haven't gone after Pakistan - which DOES have nuclear weapons, and is harboring Bin Laden? Why haven't we gone after North Korea, which tested a nuke last year?

Oh... I know why. Those countries don't have OIL.

Hi, E Fav,

Interesting. Even the King James version has 'burden'. Wonderful music, by the way!

Arminius

E fave,

What do you play?

Hi PaganPlace, Arminius, Daniel, Nuh-uh.

I will have to return a reply on Monday or Tuesday since I am working this weekend.

Aminius: "His yoke is easy and his burden is light."

Handel says "burthen."

I must have practiced it 10 times today. Getting ready for a concert!

Hey, Paganplace,

As you said, "It's only really a 'yikes' if you think the appropriate treatment for neighbors is to freak out if they aren't the same as you or under a control you like.

My point there was in fact that you can't 'love your neighbors' if you run around like Peter screaming they must be horrid, evil, beastly animals if they don't obey your 'absolute laws.' "

Yup. Peter cannot love his neighbors, regardless of what he might say. Actually, my 'Yikes!' was more for, if all the world is my neighbor, I must love Bin Laden as myself... I confess to having some difficulty with that!

Your boat metaphor was indeed contorted, although I got the meaning, and agree. I personally would prefer the steamboat, but that is again hugely personal. Not to downplay sailboats, one of man's creations that is almost alive.

Respects,

Arminius

" Arminius:

"Hi, Paganplace,"

Hi. :)

"You said, "I think the first step to being good neighbors is admitting you *have* neighbors. :)"."

"My reply:
Yup, we got neighbors, unless we live in a cave that no one else knows about. Of course, your statement begs the question: Who ARE my neighbors? The folks living around me? (Yes, primarily, of course.) Or those in my town, or my state/province, or country, or, God willing, the whole world? Yikes...."

It's only really a 'yikes' if you think the appropriate treatment for neighbors is to freak out if they aren't the same as you or under a control you like.

My point there was in fact that you can't 'love your neighbors' if you run around like Peter screaming they must be horrid, evil, beastly animals if they don't obey your 'absolute laws.'

"I would feel quite comfortable living as the token Christian in an entire neighborhood of Pagans."

I'd hope so. We've even been known to have the occasional Friar Tuck in our merrie companye. :)

" I admit to confusion about your beliefs, but, from what I have seen here, you folks are good company."

Well, thanks. It's actually a lot less 'confusing' when you see all the ideas and people working together... as opposed to, say, when we're trying to speak halfway in the likes of Peter's terms and presumptions. These guys love to demand answers to the wrong darn questions. :)

It's kind of like someone looking at your boat and saying, "How is this part a boiler, and where's the paddle wheel! You can't have a boat without these, and it's sure to explode without a relief valve! Look, it says it right here in my manual!"

"Err, This is a *sail* boat. Would you like to see the diesel?"

Tortured metaphor as that is, basically, you kind of have to see how the 'parts' actually interrelate to really see the bigger picture. :)

Oops,

"Conclusion: A lot of OT, NT and koran thumping and thumpers are actually thumping the rules and codes of the ancients like King Hammurabi who did NOT need revelations from "pwtfft"s or mountain voices to develop needed rules of conduct for us hominids.