All Comments (65)

Dear Susan

I don't give my last name, because, frankly, I am a little afraid of some of the people who post comments her. The reason that I keep pointing out that I am a Christian is not to proclaim it to the world and make a big deal about how great being a Christian is; it is because the meanest and crudest replies to my comments come from conservative Christians, and I am just trying to remind them. Perhaps I will stop doing that.

I can see, and concur, that almost all of the atheist anger is a reaction to the dominance and intrusivness of conservative Christians, who do not not practice what they preach, who do not represent most Christians, and who insist upon their own narrow and exclusionary traditions.

For example, the tradition of Thanksgiving.

I was born and raised in Virginia. As a little kid, I studied Virginia history in elementary school. We learned that the first English settlement was Jamestown, not Plymouth. They came over on the Constance, the Sussana (I think) and the Godpeed, not the Mayflower. And the first Thanksgiving was at Bereley Plantation in 1619, in Virginia, not in Massachusetts. After the Civil War, the North revised the history books, as further punishment for the South (which maybe they deserved). Nowadays, I would say that even most southerners don't know their own history, of the first Thanksgiving in Virginia.

I am sure, now, the next big topic will be the "War on Christmas." That is just one more new Christmas "tradition" that I could do without, putting other people down who don't actually utter the words "Merry Christmas" enough, as though that is relavant to anything relating to Christianity. It is just one more nit for the Conservative Christians to pick at.

The End

Norrie - CFI = Center for Inquiry

Jihadist -- I think Susan understood what I meant by "professional atheist." I'd say the same for Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, Hitchens. they are much more than that, of course - e.g., professor, scientist, journalist, but they earn a living, in part, by expressing their atheist views.

I don't. In fact, expressing such views professionally might interfere with my ability to earn a living.

For all commentators on my name[s]:

SUSAN,

I'm happy to be the Tootsie of the secular universe, except: no crossdressing for me, thank you. I'll leave that to J. Edgar on whatever plane he's now on.

JIHADIST,

You're very perceptive of the tonal differences between "Norris" and "Norrie". From an early age I didn't like the sharp and standoffish tone of "Norris". You're right that "Norrie" has a "...has a rounder, softer and friendlier ring.." That's why I've always used "Norrie" except when I've had to use my actual given name on legal and official documents, etc. Every one of the many people who've worked for me over the decades have called me "Norrie" at my request. They seemed to like using the nickname, too.

PAGANPLACE,

It's fine with me if your Noreen-Norrie is "butch" or something else. By the way, what is the opposite of "butch"? At my age I can't keep up with all the current sexoterminology.

FOR EVERYONE,

I really enjoyed your accounts of your Thanksgiving Days and dinners. It's nice to depart from our usual intellectual and spiritual disputes and simply relate to each other as people. I admire those of you who had many people of different beliefs to dinner.

At our house it was just Kathy, me, sons Mike & Chris, and Chris's girlfriend, Grace, and our brother-and sister Maine Coon Cats, Archie and Belle. None us is of any defined traditional religious persuasion, unless the cats are. I've always thought that cats are quite spiritual in nature, for good or ill. I even told our fellow poster, Mary Cunningham, that cats pray (as well as prey).

Archie and Belle, now nine months old, are well on their way to becoming the gigantic, beautiful, friendly, playful, interested-in-what-the-humans-around-them-are doing, animals characteristic of their breed.

When we set the Thanksgiving table, as is their custom, Archie and Belle occupied two chairs set aside for humans. When we sat down to dinner they were exiled to the floor beside us, where they enjoyed their own turkey and fixings dinner.

Best to all.

Arminius,

Only my last line referred to Christianity. It was to show the absurdities that a legalistic religion can lead to.

The main point was to demonstrate to Jihadist that if she thought the turkey pardons were unbelievable, there are yet stranger legal things that have related to animals.

I try not to bash Christians, only Christianity.

P.S. We have two Maine Coon Cats who are members of our family. They are sentient beings with the same inner Buddha nature that you and I have, and, with us, are on the same path toward enlightenment.

Concerning sports (remembering our Rockies/Red Sox colloquy): My younger son's girlfriend's brother is a rabid Cleveland Indians fan. We can't fathom why since he's always lived in Maryland. When Cleveland was playing the Red Sox and were up three games to one, he sent my son an e-mail saying "Sorry the Red Sox had to play the Indians".

At the moment the Sox eliminated Cleveland, my son sent him an e-mail saying "Sorry Cleveland had to play the Red Sox."

The girlfriend's brother then threw a fit and has since refused to talk to our son. You and I were much more civil and rational.

By the way, what do you think of the Patriots? Perhaps we can get a mini-Armageddon going over that.

All good wishes.

Hi, Lep,

Yes, the circle goes on. A lot to be said about that.

Don't get me started either on the dain-bramaged redneck 'hunters' who simply want to shed blood and find a demented 'glory' in it. Sick. Where is the respect for Creation in that? The Nazi SS was full of such vermin.

...I gotta watch it, I am getting angry. No good.

Arminius

Norrie (Norris?) -

I'm not sure of the point of your post except to bash Christianity. Or religion in general. To be sure, all religions deserve to be bashed when they are acting stupidly. As to non-religious folk as well.

The sad litany of human stupidity endures to this day, and some things we do which seem so sensible to us now will seem like products of idiots 500 years from now.

Oh, well. As close as I can get to a rant.

Arminius

postscript: I have two dogs and three cats. They are all members of the family.

Arminius:

Everything that is alive eats at the expense of something else's life.
Rabbit eats clover - clover dies. Wolfeats rabbit - rabbit dies.
Cow eats grass - grass dies. I eat steak - cow dies.
Someday I will die, and my body will be eaten by scavengers, insects, and microflora.
The circle goes on.

That's why I have no issue with eating meat or with responsible, resepctful hunting along the lines of the way your family does it. But don't get me started on trophy hunting or those so-called hunters who bait deer with molasses-soaked corn and soak their clothes in doe in heat urine to attract bucks.

And I love venison too.

Jihadist,

If you thought pardoning the two turkeys was unbelievable, try this bit of Christian-based legal history:

"Animals on Trial

"The judge declared:

"We, in detestation and horror of the said crime, and to the end that an example be made and justice maintained, have said, judged, sentenced, pronounced and appointed, that the said porker, now detained as a prisoner and confined in the said abbey, shall be by the master of high works hanged and strangled on a gibbet of wood near and adjoinant to the gallows and place of execution."

"The year was 1494; the place, a French monastery. On trial was a pig, interred for the crime of having "entered a house and disfigured a child¹s face, wherepon the child departed this life". The presiding judge was Jehan Levoisier, licentiate in law and grand mayor of the church and monastery of Saint Martin de Laon of the order of Premonstrants. The punishment; execution.

"It's all recorded in a remarkable book The Criminal Prosecution and Capital Punishment of Animals. First published in 1906 [new paperback edition in 2006, obtainable from ABE books], the book outlines in great detail (and some humour) the extraordinary practice of putting animals on trial. This was common throughout the Middle Ages, and still occurred right up into the 20th century. In 1906 in Switzerland, a man was killed and robbed by Scherrer and his son "with the fierce and effective cooperation of their dog". All three murderers stood trial, but while both men received life sentences, the dog was condemned to death.

"Child-killing swine were apparently a regular medieval hazard. There are numerous accounts of pigs being strung up on the gallows as a deterrant to potential wrongdoers. What's strange is not so much that the dangerous animals were killed, but that the people went through the farce of an elaborate trial first. Animals were afforded exactly the same rights under the law as humans. In prison awaiting trial, they were entitled to the same allowance of the king¹s bread. Jailers charged the same fee for their board. At trial, they were entitled to legal representation.

"One sixteenth century jurist is even said to have made his reputation at the bar defending the province¹s rats. Bartholomew Chassenee was able to successfully argue that first, more time was needed to notify so many rodents of the trial date, and second, that they could not possibly attend trial when to do so would put them at risk of confronting their mortal enemy, the cat.

"The animal trials represent contradiction on contradiction. At the time, the dominant medieval Christian church was intent on maintaining a divide between animals and people, to the extent of dictating that animals lacked souls. Yet that very same church was presiding over trials with animals as the sole defendant! And invariably finding them guilty! And although the paradox was in some way addressed by suggesting the beasts were possessed by devils, the trials are ultimately one of the most bizarre manifestations of humanity¹s great moral dillemma: should we treat animals as though they are like things, or like people?

"Mind you, although the trials rarely went the way of the animals, there was one donkey that got off. In Toulouse, in medieval France, a man was charged with having sex with his donkey. The man was hanged. But the donkey was spared, after impassioned pleas convinced the court that she was not a willing or compliant victim."

Ah, Christianity! [rhymes with insanity, doesn't it? - all part of the same song.]

Terra,

Regarding hunting. I am not a hunter - have done fishing - but have no objection to sensible hunting.

Now my two nephews in Tennessee are hunters. And sensible, and respectful. They obey the Four Laws of Hunting:
1. Safety first!
2. Obey all hunting laws.
3. You kill it, you eat it.
4. See #1

One of my nephews described his first deer kill. His first reaction was, "OMYGOD I killed this beautiful creature!". His next reaction was positively primeval - "I have killed!". His third reaction was total respect for the deer. To this day he and his brother hunt in the mountains, and declare that hunting the deer, done properly, is very difficult. Their respect for their prey borders on the spiritual. I was really impressed.

Note that the deer is a positive pest in the southeast of this country. I have seen them in backyards in suburbia. Hunting merely culls the herd. And venison is SO SO GOOD TO EAT!!!!

Arminius

Arminius,
Yep, from all I have been able to gather, hunting was very religious. There was a direct connection between man and what sustained him...and the Gods were the go between.

I was talking to a young lady the other day that was relating an experience with hunting and the game warden.
She got her first deer, and when her father was about to Blood her, the game warden appeared. She said she was glad, her father had to take credit for the kill and she did not end up with blood on her face.

That is very Pagan and an initiation for hunters that get their first kill. It is honoring the life that was given up for sustaining the tribe.

Yep,we have great food and fun for our Harvests.How can we not...we being Children of the Earth.
terra

Hope all you heathens and believers have a great few days of Thanksgiving.

Susan, thank you for the kind regards to those of us out here in la-la land who at least try to keep the discussion to ideas. Up with chicken broth!

have a day!

Lep,
Right you are - America is a nation of mostly Christians, in bewildering variety. The founding fathers were mostly Christian, but some of the most important - Washington, Jefferson, and probably Adams, were deists.

Terra,
Yup, any agricultural society would have, sooner or later, come up with a harvest feast. Damn good reason to party, in my opinion! And before that, I would suspect that there were religious trappings to the hunt as well.

Morgan-whatever-your-name-is,
I would submit that the last six commandments are moral in nature. But I prefer the Two Great Commandments.

With respect,

Arminius

And to amend Terra's comments, we had morality before the hon-historical givinn of the ten commnandments, only three of which concern morality.[The on on blessing parents is too much!]

Galatians,
As far as Thanksgiving goes you really are on a loseing streak...wrong again.

Pagans had harvest fests from the begining of time. Either celebrating the abundance of hunting or the abundance of grains and crops of the fields.
We Wiccans have three harvest celebrations throughout the year...the pilgrims would have died out in the Plymouth bay colony if it was not for the Natives (Pagans).

Massasoit,the Wampanoag leader signed a peace treaty with the colonists in which each promised to live in peace and support the other if attacked. The natives shared what they had and showed the new comers how to plant....then the new comers broke the treaty and poor Massasoit became very sorry he did not let those pilgrims die out, like half of them did that first winter.

Having celebrations of thanks for survival or for the abundance of the Earth is not something that Christianity came up with. You think that Christianity just grew with no input from other cultures or peoples? think again.

Every culture or belief has grown from what preceded it.

terra

Let us be charitable except to those like Duane Gish and William Dembske.
Robert Price in"The Reason-Driven Life" inspires all!Reason saves, not a dead Galilean!

Galatians,

The pilgrims you speak of were more the Old Testiment hard core authortarian type, called Seperatists, they had seperated from the Church of England. And their power faded out long before our founders created the Constitution. The founders wanted to make sure that the old world religious bigotry did not flame up here, as it did with those first pilgrims (see stocks, burnings, hangings and whippings). And the Mayflower Compact was Majority Rule..there were no protections for minority views or religions. All males on board the Mayflower were forced to sign the Compact. They were not democratic in any way....so not any part of American democratic culture.

An interesting column by Dave berry..
http://www.miamiherald.com/418/story/288480.html

The Mayflower arrived in 1620, our Declaration of Independance was signed in 1776...the Constitution was signed in 1787....and our Constitution protects the Minority and gives us rights, mainly the same rights as the majority holds. Our laws and freedoms are based on minority protections and the limits on majorities.

We are not a Christian nation...we are just a Christian Majority nation. Not the same thing at all.

As to the name issue, Lepidopteryx is every bit as much my real name as the one on my birth certificate. It is my spiritual name, which I consider highly appropriate for posting on a religious blog.

Galatians:

Your post is anti-historical nonsense. The Pilgrims were not the first nor the only settlers. They did not set the mold for all future settlers. Oglethorpe in Goergia among many others had nothing to do with the Pilgrims or their bigoted religion. The U.S. is not a Christian nation, never was and never will be. Your last sentence just demonstrates your religious bigotry.

My point is, the Pilgrims travelled on the Mayflower to establish a new home where they could worship freely. They were Bible-believing Christians. They set the mold for all future settlers and indeed all future Americans. Thanksgiving is uniquely American because we, as Americans in a Christian Nation, give thanks to God. As the Pilgrims established, the United States is a place where Bible-believing Christians can practice their religion wihout oversight of the King/Queen of England, the pope, or any other apostate.

Terra,
Your dinner company sounds like mine.
I was rather pleased that we had fourteen people around the table and only generated one kitchen bag's worth of non-compostable, non-recyclable garbage. We used real plates, cloth napkins, and the good flatware.
Everything was made from scratch (except for the fact that the broccoli casserole uses canned cream of mushroom soup as a binder and I used canned cranberry sauce - I've never been able to make jelly or preserves worth a damn) - the casseroles made from fresh veggies, the dressing made with homemade cornbread baked in a cast-iron skillet from my grandmother's recipe. I don't use mixes to begin with, and even if I did, one of our guests is highly allergic to MSG, so when we have him and his partner over, I make doubly sure not to use anything that contains it.
My daughter doesn't like turkey, so my dad made a big pot of seafood gumbo and brought it over. Other people brought wines and desserts. I did things like baking the cornbread for the dressing and chopping and blanching vegetables the night before, so that all I had to in the morning was assemble everything and stick it in the oven. I love to entertain, but I don't want to be so tired I can't enjoy my guests.

Our ecumemical guest list consisted of one Pagan/Mahikari/Unitarian (that would be me), one Mahikari, two Baptists, two Unitarians, one atheist/agnostic, three Catholics, two Episcoplians, and I have no idea what faith, if any, the other two practice.

Our simple table grace consisted of "We partake of this food with gratitude for all the blessings of Heaven and Earth, for the efforts of those who have prepared this, and for those with whom we share it." Some bowed their heads and closed their eyes, some looked at each other and exchanged smiles. Everyone ended with their own closing phrase, from "Amen" to "Thank you very much" to "Blessed be."

The Jihadist continues to have significant time to worry about things like turkey pardons but never has time to address the ills of her warmongering, unforgiving religion. Very, very strange!!!

Ayaan Hirsi Ali has shown what one Muslim can do so The Jihadist cannot claim that correcting the flaws in Islam is too large for one person. Thank God for Ms. Ali. The summary of her book, Infidel, says it all:

"Thus begins the extraordinary story of a woman born into a family of desert nomads, circumcised as a child, educated by radical imams in Kenya and Saudi Arabia, taught to believe that if she uncovered her hair, terrible tragedies would ensue. It's a story that, with a few different twists, really could have led to a wretched life and a lonely death, as her grandmother warned. But instead, Hirsi Ali escaped -- and transformed herself into an internationally renowned spokeswoman for the rights of Muslim women."

ref: Washington Post book review.

With respect to family disharmony, the Sunnis and Shiites express it violenty 24/7. They need no holiday to express their madness and unhapiness.

Though, in all seriousness, J, it'd been traditional for a certain agricultural lobby to present the President with a turkey for the White House feast. It so happens that you really ought to hang such a bird for a day or three before roasting, anyway, and the 'Presidential Pardon' was sort of a semi-funny way of giving the bird a reprieve from the 'chopping block,' and it kind of became obligatory.

It's kind of impossible to go back on this, given that Presidential food is *never* from a pre-known source for security reasons. So, it's quaint, but also a strange metaphor, given that the Presidential power of pardon is intended to provide yet another of those 'checks and balances' against the tyrrany of majorities and all.

It seems to have turned into a bad metaphor about some presumption of guilt on the part of turkeys, 'special executive powers,' and ...people forgetting why it was supposed to be funny, though. :)

Given the executive branch has sort of turned *into* an... executing branch, I kind of think it's not funny anymore, even if the turkeys are 'forgiven.'

O tempora, O mores.

*filtering in after some good times.*

One thing I never could get behind about the Presidential turkey pardon... It was funny once, but, it seems to me, that the turkey, in getting a 'pardon' ...was thereby declared to be 'guilty' of something unspecified, for which he was then 'pardoned.'

I mean, *what?*

I'd previously made the acquaintance of the turkey we ate tonight, while I was standing in mud and he was doing his turkey thing...

Turkey didn't need a 'pardon,' ....he never did anything but be a turkey. I thanked him for being a turkey wen he was alive, I thanked him for being a turkey when I was about to eat him.

What's this with 'pardons?' Guilt never entered into it.

It was funny once, and a diplomatic way to have a security measure, later, but is someone accusing turkeys of something, here? :)

Happy Thanksgiving to all!
ok, the dish washer has run twice and will be filled once more...at Mardi Gras the success is measured by the trash left on the streets for the street cleaners...I think my Thanksgiving is measured by the number of empty platters have to be washed.

I am enjoying the quiet and the knowledge that there is a pumpkin pie and part of a Cheese cake in the fridge. Hot coffee and forbidden dessert as a pat on the back..lol.

Today at my table were two x mormons, one who is a Wiccan student, an x Catholic, 2 Baptists- one my daughter, a Wiccan High Priest,three cajuns, my Pagan friendly hubby and me. And it was awesome, fun and joyful.

The worse argument was about Christmas...should we have a Tur-Duc-Ken or a Fried turkey for dinner.

As far as Wiccan names...We are forbidden to OUT each other. If I were to use my real name and you would find out that I live close to another member...it could cause problems. We have to protect each other by protecting our ID's.

I also have used Terra for so long that it is my alter ego. Most of my friends don't call me by my given birth name. Though Terra is mainly a name used primarily just on the net..I have another religious name.

As far as Bush saving the life of the turkey? The turkey and Libby... I wonder what the turkey had on him?

Ok Pumpkin pie or Creme Brulee cheese cake???decisions...
terra

Arminius,

I was getting off On Faith when I saw your post. So it's real? Ops!

Thanks for the link. Will read it when I'm free again.

...........and E Favorite,

By the way, what is the CFI conference?

Happy Thanksgiving
and a good weekend to you.

Best regards as ever.

"J"

Jihadist,

The turkey pardon is real, and a nice tradition. And it is probably the only decent thing Bush has done. See this link:
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/tgturkey2.html

Arminius

Andrea,

I just saw your post.

The traditional Presidential turkey pardon to spare the life of a turkey? You're not pulling my leg? When? Why? And how is the turkey selected?

Is the turkey a mass murderer of other turkeys in a turkey apprehened by the turkey crimes and misdemenour division of police department, charged in a turkey court, found guilty and given the death sentence?

Then as "dead turkey walking" to the electric chair to be roasted, was pardoned and spared its life by the President at the last hour ?

Then the turkey has a press conference repenting for its crime, and asking for forgiveness from the victims' families, and have a million dollar book deal on its life written by Norman Mailer or Truman Capote clones?

Or, millions of turkey has to die, but the life of one turkey saved after being pardoned and spared of its life so other turkeys can remember that?

Or, a symbolic sparing of the turkey's life in rememberence of the Pilgrims' first Thanksgiving where a turkey/s were part of that dinner?

It don't make sense to me, this Presidential pardon and sparing of a turkey. There is an explanation, yes, for this tradition?

Your Thanksgiving this year sounds most relaxing, even a bit heretical in having pizza instead of even pressed turkey dinner. Here's a tip - slice turkey breasts into strips, slice shiitake mushrooms into strips (soak to clean and soften them). Mix both with ground pepper and oyster sauce and leave them to marinade a bit. If you don't have your own pizza oven, take the mix to to your local pizza house and ask them to put on your special edition and request pizza. Quantities of all ingredients up to you by your own taste, follow your cooking instincts and improvise as you want. Very tasty change from the usual.

Enjoy kicking your husband's butt at video games for now. As you told us where Satan is actually residing and happily cocconing, we're sending a couple of priests over to your place exorcise that sexy, suave, sly fellow to set him loose again to unleash chaos and create havoc in the world.

By the way, I tried to get our cats to cooperate so we can video them as you suggested in another post. Nothing caught of them on camera, but furnitures, the hubby, the kids, the help.
Our cats are not furry meatloafs "contemplating evil and acting evil" as Anthony Burgess wrote about a cat in one of his "Malayan Trilogy" stories. They are smart, sly and most independent.

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E Favorite

Thanks for stating E Favorite is not your real name, and why you use it. I had thought it was.

I do think that Ms. Susan Jacoby would wince a bit when you stated in your post to her:

"...but unlike you, I’m not a professional atheist; I’m a professional something-else...."

Ms. Susan Jacoby is a journalist and writer by profession who happened to be a professed atheist, who also wrote about freethinkers, atheism and atheists.

Calling her a "professional atheist" gives the impression that she is paid to be, or is getting paid for being an atheist.

We would now think that apart from professional atheletes, there are now "professional atheists" with clubs, club owners, fanbase, rules and regulations etc.

Or, atheism is now a profession like law, medicine, accountancy with codes of conduct and ethics, and members can be reprimanded, disciplined, suspended or expelled from membership.

Ms. Susan Jacoby made many stated and unstated references to literature, including poetry, in her essays, and apparently Russian works too.

The title of her essay on Thanksgiving, "When Happy and Unhappy Families Are All Alike" is a play on what Leo Tolstoi wrote in "Anna Karenina" - All happy families are alike. Unhappy families are unhappy in their own way (or "in their own fashion" by some translations).

So, anyone who wants to hurl easy labelings or invenctives Ms. Jacoby's way that is linguistically dubious and grammatically incorrect should really pause on the form and content of it. After all, she is a professional writer, and a literate one.

English is not my mother tongue. What are the excuse of native speakers who use such uninventive invectives against her? And what does that shows? Not referring to you E Favorite. You are one of the civil and civilised ones.

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Norris Hoyt,

I like that real given name, and the one you use, Norrie, has a rounder, softer and friendlier ring that belies a strapping six footer in person eh. Some people do think I'm a male here.

In person, people don't think I'm Muslim looking at my real name and by my physical features. Stereotypes, assumptions and perceptions on Muslim names, looks and dressing are very set in some people's minds. What they say and do because of that assumption of me, what happened when they know I'm Muslim is another story, nay, stories that would take many decades to tell on all of them ........:)

Hope all have a good long weekned.

Best regards as ever.

"J"

Paganplace,

After I sent the post, I remembered you were from the Beantown area. Ooops....

Arminius

*waving out* Ok! Here's where the crush is on, time to finish this food off and bundle it up. Happy Thanksgiving, everyone. :)

Ah, I'm not not-a-fan, Arminius, (In Boston, you're a Sox fan whether or not you know a thing about what's going on. I consider it part of the city's spirit, for better or worse, and regardless of whether or not I absorb the details from people who care. (especially when the details are about anything but civic spirit, except as mediated by money and all) ...I enjoy it when others around me are, otherwise, it's mostly off the scopes. Besides, in that context, how can someone like me resist having a go at breaking an old curse, once in a while. :) )

As for people getting triumphalist about sports successes in the name of a political-religious agenda, it's like when preachers go trying to curse places for not kicking gays out, don't come crying to a 'Witch' when it backfires. :)

And, Norrie, if it's any consolation, this Norrie was quite butch? :)

Susan,

The comments on your blog which you decry are a mirror of your own hate mongering and incivility. Your work is cynical and seeks to generate publicity and revenue for yourself at the expense of civil discourse.

One poster some time ago who said:

Susan, I am new here, and the question I have is: Do you only hate religious people, or do you hate everyone?

You are part of the problem of polarization that makes it increasingly difficult for compromise and common decency to be a centerpiece of our democracy, you are not part of the solution. You really should go back and read your own stuff with an honest an open eye. Perhaps you can improve if you try.

Norrie--

I've known you were a man for quite a while, though I didn't initially. I think you're absolutely right about some of the condescending reactions to your comments. Just consider yourself the Tootsie of the secular universe.

Best regards,

Susan

PaganPlace,

I've never met a woman whose nickname was "Norrie". I've met several male Norrises; they all called themselves "Norrie."

The only female Norris I've ever heard of is Norris Church Mailer, the sixth wife of the late Norman Mailer, who died this month.

All the best for the Pagan holidays (including Christmas).

Paganplace,

It's true that the Rockies are a religious team, but by all accounts they are very decent about it, and not demanding of any player on the team to join in any religious happening.

As to religion in baseball - and I know you are not a fan of the world's greatest sport - I offer this:

"When I go into a ballpark, I feel like I am surrounded by angels and God's hand is on my shoulder."
- - Hammerin' Hank Aaron, with 755 career home runs, still the true champion. Bonds can go to steroid hell.

Arminius

Arminius,

It's good to hear from you again.

I know it's no fun, but as one well practiced in it, it might bring solace to say "Wait till next year".

Enjoy the season!

Oh, and, above, I meant to quote 'Galatians,' not myself. Cooking has begun. :)

And, Norrie, I keep forgetting you're male, myself: Sorry! I knew a 'Norrie' that's short for 'Noreen' or some such. :)

" Arminius:

Oh, yeah, I still have not forgiven the Bosox for sweeping Colorado. (grin!)

Have a good turkey day,"

Hey, the Rockies are Fundie-owned and agendaed, and went in claiming to be 'God's Team,' ...whoever you think is in charge of the Universe... or baseball, well, really, now, what did you expect? :)

Paganplace

"This rock has become an object of veneration in the United States…Does this not show very clearly that the power and greatness of man is wholly in his soul? Here is the stone that the feet of some miserable persons touched for an instant, and this stone becomes celebrated; it attracts the regard of a great people; they venerate its remnants; they parcel out its dust in the distance. What has become of the thresholds of so many palaces? Who cares about them?"

Pssst. It's not the same rock. Not even the same beach. The Plymouth tourist board carved '1620' into something handy.

Rick,

Actually, I sing "Grace" in Gregorian chant. Awesome and a family tradition!!!!

Norrie.... Norrie?

Holy $#%^&^, I was really fooled! OK, we're both male, that's cool.

Oh, yeah, I still have not forgiven the Bosox for sweeping Colorado. (grin!)

Have a good turkey day,

Arminius

Susan,

A great column, as usual.

Jihadist,

Thanks for trying to get people to understand that I'm of the masculine gender.

"Norrie" is my nickname and I realize that many posters seem to think there's a feminine cast to it, though my wife doesn't.

My actual first name (revealed here for the first time!) is Norris, which is said to mean "Man from the North".

It's really a (distinguished) last name, of course, but I was born in the era when American WASP families commonly gave their children first names that were the last names of relatives.

Anyone who met me in person wouldn't be in much doubt about my gender: I'm 6'1" tall and weigh a fairly well-muscled 245 pounds. My nickname at the last government agency I headed was "The Big Man".

Incidentally, because some posters have imagined me to be female, I've had a lesson in sex discrimination. Some posters disagreeing with me were obviously condescending in a way they wouldn't have been if they had envisaged me as male.

Thanks, Jihadist and Susan, for your fine writings this past year. I've enjoyed them and learned from them.

Happy holidays to all.

I think the tension is caused by the fact that we're virtually forced to get together with people that we don't like very much.

Some people are vegetarian. It is their choice not to eat animals. Sometimes people make this choice because of religious reasons, sometimes for ethical reasons. I think it is atrocious and unacceptable to belittle a vegetarian because she refused to eat meat. Where is your tolerance?

Hi Susan,

I am a recent convert from non-practicing Christian Southern Baptist to the Atheist/Agnostic philosophy; and I write this as time for the Thanksgiving dinner approaches.

Thanksgiving has always been a time for the extended family to gather at our house (the grandparents in Fredericksburg, VA) with children and grandchildren arriving from Ohio (family of 5) and southeastern VA (two families of 3 and 4). It is always a time of good food and warm family reunion.

One awkward moment has always been when it is time for the head of house to “say grace”. I have never been able to perform this feat because I would feel like such a hypocrite to do so. The rest of the family accepts this, and someone else is always tagged to perform the ritual. I’m sure that others must have similar experiences, though I doubt that many (if any) would want to discuss openly such an intensely personal feeling.

I mention this because it is related to the topic of discussion: “Why are many holiday family gatherings marked by tension and unhappiness”. My feeling is not unhappiness, but rather has gradually evolved over the years from tense uneasiness to relaxed acceptance.

I’m sure that my dear friend CTCNL will have no such feeling of uneasiness. He will just boo and hiss at the person nominated to “say grace”; right CT?

Ahh, The Jihadist could not even let Thanksgiving go without driveling on about names and Thanksgiving customs.

On topic: Why are many holiday family gatherings marked by tension and unhappiness???

Money, religious differences and/or political opinions.

About Thanksgiving: I am thankful that I can reiterate the following quotes etc. without fear of Islamic death squads or riots promoted by dark age imams and clerics:

"Until the koran is "deflawed", no one is safe."

"Gators vs. Muslims??? Gators definitely will kill. With Muslims, it depends but with the koran as their operating manual can we trust any of them???"

"Thus begins the extraordinary story of a woman born into a family of desert nomads, circumcised as a child, educated by radical imams in Kenya and Saudi Arabia, taught to believe that if she uncovered her hair, terrible tragedies would ensue. It's a story that, with a few different twists, really could have led to a wretched life and a lonely death, as her grandmother warned. But instead, Hirsi Ali escaped -- and transformed herself into an internationally renowned spokeswoman for the rights of Muslim women."

ref: Washington Post review of Ayaan Hirsi Ali's book, Infidel

"The Islamic theocracy and terror state of warmongering Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil" says it all about the current state of affairs with the warmongerning "religion" established by the hallucinating, womanizing, illiterate Arab named Mohammed and his plagiarizing scribes.

Thomas Paine did not die penniless. He died quite well off. He was also not a bitter drunkard, and he did not convert to Christianity on his deathbed. These are all myths made up by Christians who resented Paine for disdaining Christianity.

For details, see "Life and Deeds of Thomas Paine" by Robert G. Ingersoll.

Galatians: Dream on - Canadians also celebrate Thanksgiving and the Indians had a harvest feast before the pilgrims ever got here. Jews and pagans celebrate the harvest too. It's a human thing to do, but there's no specifically Christian equivalent that I know of.

SUSAN – good meeting you at the CFI conference in NYC. I’d love to use my real name here, but unlike you, I’m not a professional atheist; I’m a professional something-else who might not benefit from having a compendium of atheistic quotes popping up on Google. I was even careful to Google my pseudonym in advance, to be sure I was not saddling some unsuspecting “E Favorite” out there with an everlasting, ill-deserved internet reputation.

I can assure you, however, that I stand by everything I’ve said here, even though under cover.

Regarding Thanksgiving, it’s my favorite holiday because it’s inclusive and simple.

My most poignant holiday memory is from about 10 years ago, when a family member was in the hospital with a heart attack. At one point, as family gathered to keep watch, we realized we had a pretty good group of people who had sung together before. We got the idea of going around singing Christmas carols to others stuck in the hospital over Christmas. It’s one of the best things I’ve ever done. People were incredibly grateful. Some were in tears – not because we were that good (or that bad) but because, I think, we had offered an moment of enjoyment where none had been expected.

Thanksgiving is uniquely American. It is a time for families to gather together in prayer around the table. As you join with family and friends, take time and reflect on that first Thanksgiving. William Bradford, Governor of Plymouth, proclaimed the first official day of Thanksgiving in October of 1621. What were they thankful for? One year after arriving, the Pilgrims stood at about half their original number. Not quite one year earlier they had arrived in New England from Holland after a 66-day journey across the North Atlantic. During that first winter 47 of the 102 Pilgrims were lost to disease and starvation. If it hadn't been for Squanto, the young Patuxent Indian, the second winter might have claimed them all. Squanto had been taken captive by slave traders, but monks in Spain purchased his freedom and taught him the Christian faith. He made his way to England, learned our language, and thence returned to America. He was there to welcome the Pilgrims shortly after their arrival. Squanto taught them how to plant corn in New England's rocky soil. He shared his special knowledge of forests and rivers. Governor Bradford said Squanto had been sent by God to be the little band's Joseph.

We trace not only our Christian heritage to this brave band of Pilgrims, but also our country's solid foundation of self-government. The Mayflower Compact was signed even before the Pilgrims landed. It laid out the ideals of government by consent of the governed and made clear their purpose, "undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith." Plymouth Rock is the place where those Pilgrims first set foot on America's shores. The great French political scientist Alexis de Tocqueville wrote about this scene. In his classic 1835 book, Democracy in America:

This rock has become an object of veneration in the United States…Does this not show very clearly that the power and greatness of man is wholly in his soul? Here is the stone that the feet of some miserable persons touched for an instant, and this stone becomes celebrated; it attracts the regard of a great people; they venerate its remnants; they parcel out its dust in the distance. What has become of the thresholds of so many palaces? Who cares about them?

Tocqueville was one of the first Europeans to recognize the change that was taking place "in the course of human events" in America. He wrote that religious freedom was the key to understanding democracy in America. Today, there are those who think that religion and democracy are at odds with one another. Tocqueville knew that a firm foundation of faith was essential to the rise of democracy.

it's hard to get excited about a generic holiday like Thanksgiving - indoctrination aside.

It's sad to hear on this blog about people who have lost beloved family members around a holiday. It's very hard not to associate the holiday itself with grief when you've suffered a loss with a "date" on it. I feel very low every year during the holiday season because my father was diagnosed with fast-moving lung cancer in the autumn and by the time Thanksgiving and Christmas came around, he was in extreme pain and barely able to eat.

My condolences to all of you in similar situations, with similar memories.

Susan,
Excellent article. Thanks. Sometimes you anger me, but not now.

All, here's my assorted views on Thanksgiving.

First, I grew up with that holiday as hugely special. My father loved to eat; his motto was, "I only regret that I have but one life to give to my stomach." I inherited that trait. Neither of us tended to fat - high metabolism. And my father had a wonderful tradition. After each of us four kids, and he, had finished our first plateful of turkey, potatoes, dressing, and giblet gravy, we all went outside and ran around the house (slowly!) to 'get another appetite! A true celebration of food and family.

Next. My father died in 1960, when I was 17. He died on Thanksgiving day. Needless to say that holiday holds a much different, bittersweet meaning for me now.

Third comment. I do NOT like the typical roast turkey. But give me a Cajun fried turkey and I will cheerfully eat myself into a coma! Lord, what a treat! But this Thanksgiving, I am roasting a duck,and I know how to do it right. My daughter will be here, she is a vegetarian, so I am allowing for that too.

God bless all here, and have a grand holiday!

Arminius

And, happy Thanksgiving to you, too, Susan: you handle the lion's share of the anti-atheist attacks with reason and grace.

(And, as someone mentioned, Pagans generally use screen names, a) For security reasons, barring a public presence, the only people a 'real' or legal name would mean anything to would be those with bad intentions, anyway. And b) Cause we just *love* fanciful, meaningful, or creative names, anyway. We're known to accumulate em by the half-dozen before the Net even gets *involved.* :) (I consider this one rather bland, but I stick to it, at least. )

Thank you Susan for your thoughtfulness on your article.

It's time to get a glimpse of tomorrow, for what tomorrow holds for you is the spirit of abundance. For in your tomorrow lies your future and you can start walking in your future now. For when God says, this is the day the Lord has made he made it for you to arise and share in his wonderful works of life. For today you have a piece of treasure in your heart, and you must release it into your future for life. For in time you will see that America will hear the sound of an agreeing heart that the poor must be helped this Christmas. The needy in the streets need a thanksgiving dinner.

http://jcudell.blogspot.com/