All Comments (130)

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Panthers in the Majors
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9908/04/arafat/index.html

Christopher Hitchens got it right when asked if he thought Jerry Falwell went to heaven. "No, and it's a pity there's no hell for him to go to either."

ps - Randall, your momma is in here burning with me.

There's nothing more beautiful han watching an atheist being burned alive in their own home.

There's nothing more beautiful han watching an atheist being burned alive in their own home.

There's nothing more beautiful han watching an atheist being burned alive in their own home.

Thanks SOK7, you said that very well.

Aha, thanks, Maurice. I'd always presumed it was a Classical reference. :)

David: "I suspect that it reflects a bias against people of faith"

No. It reflects a bias against, for example, people who blame September 11 on "the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America".

Maurie,

Haha! Thanks for that. You learn something new everyday.

Andrea - So was it God who coined the phrase "You stole my thunder"?

Waiting for god to create something would be akin to putting a thousand computers in a warehouse full of chimpanzees, hoping one would type "As flies to wanton boys are we to the gods; They kill us for their sport", from King Lear.

The actual phrase "You stole my thunder" was uttered by playwright John Dennis in 1709 during a production of Macbeth in which his method of simulating thunder was used in the same theater where his own play had previously been a flop.

During the Macbeth production, when Dennis heard the thunder, he stood up and screamed, "That's my thunder, by God! The villains will not play my play but they steal my thunder."

Paganplace,

Quit stealing my thunder!

They say that what you are
Will surely overtake you,
and you become the monster
so the monster will not break you.

G-bye Jerry. I do not hate you. And I refuse to be like you.

Think tales of Zeus might just have had something to do with it, actually, Andrea. :)

Maurie,

So was it God who coined the phrase "You stole my thunder"?

Terra Gazelle - It was that fat pudgy finger of bigotry and hubris that blamed those he thought beneith him for the death of 3000 people; not 19 men that had more in common with him then us.

One would think that god, being the omnipotent sort, would be a lot more competent in offing abominations, blasphemers, and heretics. However, whenever He acts, there seems to be a lot of collateral damage. Although I'm a lousy shot, even I could dispatch a blasphemer with relative ease. Especially since I'd only have to shoot myself.

Perhaps it is Ben Franklin's fault. After he invented the lightning rod, the Reverend Thomas Prince, pastor of Old South Church, suggested that by stealing god's thunder, Franklin's invention forced god to resort to cruder, less precise means, such as earthquakes, to send sinners below below below, gone to where the goblins go.

Hi, Terra.

I don't know if it's exactly 'glee' that the man's passing really engenders, so much as that's how his supporters seem to be casting it in following his message of political division.

Certainly I bear no ill will such as his fervent (Did I see any glee there at the thought?) desire to see us tortured for eternity if we didn't obey him.

He's been an abusive, droning voice in the background of my American life for a long time. Am I a little relieved that one among several stopped? Maybe a bit. Will I sleep a little easier without worrying if something crazy and hateful that particular voice says will set off some believer having a bad day or psychotic episode?

Yeah. Just a little.

Hardly an occasion for 'glee,' though, I just hope his spirit will help work on some of the damage, wherever it goes next.

I guess the reason I and others are a bit gleeful about Falwell's demise, is that it was our face he pointed his finger at and blamed for 9-11.

Those who are more forgiving are most likely the ones that are included in the Moral Majority. Me I am a Pagan and my best friends are Pagans and one happens to be a Gay Pagan.

It was that fat pudgy finger of bigotry and hubris that blamed those he thought beneith him for the death of 3000 people; not 19 men that had more in common with him then us.

I do not believe in tolerance, I believe in acceptance. Accept me as I am... you do not have to accept my beliefs, but accept me.

And keep your fat finger out of my face.

terra

Maurie Beck,
lol...well we can only hope that he would then learn that being gay and Pagan is as much a blessing as anything else we, as humans can be.

It is not who you love, but how you love.
Too many forget to love.

Blessed Be...

terra

I don't hate Falwell for being Christian - I hate him for being a horrible human being.

I don't hate Falwell for being Christian - I hate him for being a hateful, horrible human being.

It seems his teaching to misconstrue the words of and vilify anyone who calls him and those like him on his BS is a lesson well-learned, anyway.

And, believe it or not, it's not the world's fault if some Christians came 'out of their sanctuary' and found, much to their surprise, perhaps, that their ideas about others just don't hold up in the real world.

That you don't rule here.

I think Rev. Falwell did Christians a major disservice *by* so-politicizing an untenable and regressive view of your religion that simply can't stand, but continues to do damage all around.

I think what he did 'for' conservative Christianity in politics and public life was no real service: he sanctified ignorance and bigotry, and, I think, drew out the very worst in the service of corporate interests that harm the people and the Earth. Taught people to *ignore* the wrongheadedness of anyone that waves a bible or claims to be religious, to call intolerance and intrusion into the daily and public lives of others 'love,' to buy claims of divine power when they're being made, but dismiss them when they turn out to be *wrong* or even seem to backfire. You should see a list of the 'prophecies from God' he's made over the years... all dead wrong.

Would Bush's totally irrational and inadvisable 'divinely inspired' Iraq war have washed if much of the population weren't rather conditioned to blindly support such things? Would he himself have even dared go ahead and do that 'On Faith,' with no real plan, if that hadn't been made 'socially acceptable?' I don't think so.

I'm not an atheist, but what they don't like him for is *not* because they really are the villains in people's personal 'passion plays' that people like Falwell make them out to be: they don't like him because he's *pushed ignorance and unreason.*

As for me, well, blaming me for 9/11 on three counts... (really, blaming *American Christians* for 'tolerating' people he happened to hate, as in, apparently, not oppressing us sufficiently? What's he talking, there, exile? Death? Where's that go?)

Well, that was more than a 'hoof in mouth' to me, (interesting metaphor. Who has hooves in that religion, again? :) )

The fact that he seems to have taught you not to take such horrible things *very seriously* as a sign of the rot in his theology and political vision, may be part of the legacy of these kinds of people that you'd do well to put to rest with the man.

It is interesting to hear inclusivistic liberals like Susan Jacoby complain about the vitriol of Jerry Faldwell in a very vitriolic fashion.

Amy, who posted above, apparently is intolerphobic and bigophobic. How shameful.

Sko7.

I won’t totally disagree with you. Executing your beliefs in everything you do would generally be helpful. The problem really was the presentation of his message.

I am guessing people got irked at him because he was or appeared to be perpetuating his belief onto others through politics and eventually through changes to the law. I would like to hear people chime in on that.

We are a world of varied beliefs and what works for a one does not work for another. Christians don’t even agree on everything so why would atheists or those of other faiths be any different? If you present your message in a way that is hateful (or at least perceived as such) then you are either one doing a disservice to your religion or two not serving you purpose of perpetuating your belief. I think that is where Farwell missed the mark.

The old argument goes you can not legislate morality. You can not force people into things, we are not wired that way. Change comes from within and I don’t think his approach helped the general populous change from within.

I hope you're right, SOK7 and that people never forget what happens when someone like Falwell has so much political clout

Jerry Falwell is hated not because he was a Christian. He was hated because he was a political Christian. It is okay to Believe behind the drawn curtains of your home or in the basement of your church, but to have the audacity to stand in the legislature and the courts of law and say ‘I believe’ – well atheists would tell you that’s not quite American.

Modern culture is largely based upon self-indulgence - if it feels good, do it (it must be right). Falwell had the balls to stand up and say that there is a Right and a Wrong and that modern self-indulgence is almost always wrong.

What is intolerance? Is it bad? Are we cool or hip if we tolerate drugs in our schools? Are we in the right if we tolerate consensual sex between minors and adults? Jerry Falwell’s intolerance is a mirror image of what he thought the Bible told him was right and wrong. I don’t know how he got to the conclusion that Rock-n-Roll was evil – I can’t find any passage in the scriptures that might apply. But in a day and age where no one will stop to help a man being mugged in the streets, Falwell stood up and said ‘this is what I believe is true’, and this is why. Everyone who disagreed with him labeled him intolerant.

In making a stand, the Rev. Jerry Falwell managed to piss a lot of people off. Falwell even managed to piss a lot of Christians off. Billy Graham is much more likable and much less offensive. But Falwell may well have made a greater mark on society than Graham or any other evangelist, because he dared to tell Christians it was okay to be political, to vote political, to say things political. I think that is the real reason atheists hate him: not for the hoof-in-mouth he had after 9/11; not for his crusade against modern music or gays; nor for any of the other presumed missteps he has taken with his life and ministry. He taught that it was okay to let God out of the sanctuary and carry Him with you in everything you do.

And his death will do nothing to change that message.

I'm intolerant toward intolerant people. I'm also bigoted against bigots. I see no contradiction in that. There's no requirement in my morality to give equal consideration to reprehensible positions.

Rob,
I see you beat me to a post again. How fitting it is you. Here is my answer to a question you posed a few weeks back. I'd like to thank the hundreds of Jerry Falwell "well wishers" for helping me set up this point so easily.

get attacked-return fire-justify response

get attacked-return fire-justify response

get attacked-return fire-justify response

get attacked-return fire-justify response

Each time we fall deeper into the trap.

The only way to a higher level of spirituality, as you asked, or freedom as I would call it is to break this cycle.

"Yeah, It stinks bad. And we all covered up in it too. Ain't nobody clean. Be nice to get clean, though." - from Glory

The_Scully.

I somewhat agree with you that there is a lot of attack going on. Don’t get me wrong I vehemently disagree with what he stood for but Mr. Farwell’s actions no doubt contribute to the nasty responses. I guess my point is does the attack do any good? There definitely is benefit in point out his stance and his affect on the population. . Regardless of Farwell’s actions in the end we are only responsible for our own actions and whether we attack or merely comment.

I saw a great post by someone on Chuck Colson’s post. “forgive him and move on”.

The comment I made was I loved that post and thought it was a good idea. Before we move on we should learn the lesson Mr.Farwell taught us. When you cause division among people you are likely misguided in your religion/spirituality.

I wouldn’t say the blog is full of faithless people. We all pass back and forth from a place of high consciousness and low consciousness. When we are acting from our higher place of consciousness we can merely comment/observe when we are not in that place we act from emotion and present our message less insightfully which in the end doesn’t serve our purpose.

DLP,

We were asked the question "How will he be remembered?". Seems the majority of us will remember him as a creep.

I think this is horrible the things some people are posting here. The guy is dead, leave it be. If you want to be happy about that then do it to yourself. Public rejoicing in ones death, through any means, is absolutely disrespectful. Whether I agree with everything the man did or not, he has family and friends who love him. Please reconsider whether or not you make your thoughts public.

Tolerance can be a wicked practice. It depends on what one tolerates.

" Ian:

Many posting here seem to be as intolerant of others as they claim Falwell was. I guess it only depends on your point of view as to who you believe is intolerant. This page just proves that those on the left are just as intolerant as those they oppose on the right."

Actually, posts like that prove nothing except that the 'Right' doesn't care what they actually do as long as they can fallaciously try and deflect the blame elsewhere with bad analogies.

Ian,

"Many posting here seem to be as intolerant of others as they claim Falwell was. I guess it only depends on your point of view as to who you believe is intolerant. This page just proves that those on the left are just as intolerant as those they oppose on the right."

If someone launches a gratuitous and intolerant attack on a group he dislikes, such as gays, and members of the group attack him back, they are not being intolerant - they are defending themselves and pointing out the attacker's intolerance.

Ian

Good point you raised on intolerance.

Positive intolerance - against war, terrorism, drug abuse, environmental degradation, child and spouse abuse, murder, rape etc

Negative intolerance - the list is too long and would include irrational hatred of people due on their race, religion among others.

So, for example, what is so bad about "intolerance" of ignorance, bigotry and such?

But of course, intolerance is when others don't agree with one's own views and actions and seek to counter them. Those intolerant, ignorant, obstructionist, immoral, amoral, leftist/rightist (pick either) twits!

And by the way, how can one tolerate Falwell, Robertson, Graham et al but not the Mullahs of Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq?

Equal tolerance, equal intolerance or subjective and selective tolerance/intolerance?

Obviously, intolerance begets intolerance.

Many posting here seem to be as intolerant of others as they claim Falwell was. I guess it only depends on your point of view as to who you believe is intolerant. This page just proves that those on the left are just as intolerant as those they oppose on the right.

Or was that thirty?

My, how time flies when you're fixated on other people's business.

It was said by a bumper sticker twenty precious years ago, in which other things could have been accomplished:

"The Moral Majority

Is Neither."

Period.

The man who coined the term "Moral Majority" (based on the assumption that all the people who told pollsters they believe in the 10 Commandments are actually moral, which is pretty funny) also coined the term "The Civil Wrongs Movement" and called Desmond Tutu a phony. He blamed 9/11 on people in American society he didn't like, even though it's clear from Osama bin Laden's writings what the true motivation was.

Having someone on this blog link lim with Martin Luther King, Jr. because they were both "men of faith" who "acted on their faith" is laughable.

And yes, Jeffrey Dahmer accepted Jesus Christ as his lord and savior in prison, so according to Falwell's theology, Dahmer will go to Heaven and Gandhi won't.

Don't like that contradiction? Then stop supporting hypocrites who claim they have a lock on morality.

DC: "Hopefully, the American Evangelical movement has peaked."

Don't count on it. I'm amazed at the number of people who still send Jimmy Swaggart money even after he has repeatedly proven himself to be nothing but a liar.

Bye Jerry, you'll be missed... mostly by gullible, simple, "red state" people. Granted, most of these people are merely trying to make sense of existence and this flash of life (as we all are).

Hopefully, the American Evangelical movement has peaked. Religous fundamentalists should have no place in in western, secular, modern nation-states.

It makes me shudder that there are millions of people that followed this guy. Sure, if Jerry Falwell was never born, there would've been another leader of the right-wing Christian movement. However looking at the situation over the past decade or two, potential successors have seemed to just fade away; Ralph Reed, Ted Haggart, Jim Baker, etc. One of the beauties of the digital age is that "dirt" will be found on everyone, culling the group of prospective candidates exponentially.

Unfortunatly, the digital age reduces the potential group of "good" candidates also. I'm sure there would be youtube videos of the young Bill Clinton being drunk and stupid and groping women, if people had camera phones pre-1992.

Excuse the rant, I just hope to never see a more powerful version of Jerry Fallwell.

Good riddance to bad rubbish. The world became a better place today.

I love you Susan. Marry me.

Richard Anderson,
So the population of Hell increased by one today. How do you know? Did you get an email from one of your relatives?

The_Scully has obviously never visited Christian Forums or Rapture Ready if he/she believes that one cannot both be a person of faith and bitter.

Remember, Scull, being naive isn't evidence that your opinion reflects reality.

The world is, for a short while, a happier place. May no one rise to claim Falwell's fetid throne.

Here's another one for Andrea to sing in her head:

"I could wile away the hours
Conferring with the flowers
Consulting with the rain
And my head I'd be scratching
While my thoughts were busy hatching
If I only had a brain"

Serious Hysteria.

dont worry darling - no chance of people talking good about you after you are dead. just a lot of your sex partners damning you for those little gifts you left them in life.

Hey The Scully....

Who says I have to be a person of faith. Any god that would set up a logical world where thing follow verifiable laws and processes and then leave no logical way to prove his own existence is ..... well I cant think of a word, but WHY would he do that? Why let us have proof of everything but himself? Faith doesn't make sense...

Maurie,

Hysterical. Seriously. I sang that in my head.

I used to live in Jerry's neck of the woods, and I was always struck by the sight of his mansion with white stretch limos, an extreme rarity in the Appalachian area, one of the poorest in the nation.

It's too bad the fool died so easily for all the misery he visited on this country (think Bush). Death is the end of everything and Falwell will never know that there is no god, no eternal rest, no nothing.

Personally, Rev. Falwell woke me up to the fact that opposite the Muslim extremists, there are Christian extremists.

As for opposing views, Jerry Falwell has his views. Susan Jacoby has her views. I'm more towards Jacoby's except for the small and irrelevant wrinkle of her not believing in God (gasp!)

Billy Graham : "The worst place in hell are reserved for those who are neutral on the great issues of life."

Susan Jacoby (on Jerry Falwell): "This man's legacy is one of bigotry, xenophobia, anti-modernism, and utter stupidity. No doubt his funeral will be well-attended." ... by those who shared his views, and by those whom he vilified to make sure he's dead and buried.

May Falwell rest in peace. As he was a man of God and believer in heaven, hell and Armageddon, let him answer to God for what he has said and done in God's name and for what he believed in.

My condolence to his family for their loss and sympathies to them if they read his obituaries.
They may or may not share his views and the obits on him.

....and Pat Robertson and Osama et al are still with us. The living, the living the living.

The_Scully - you know, what you said is not so nice either: "This entire blog is full of faithless people (no matter what many of you say, you cannot be both a person with a true faith in a Creator God and so full of bitterness - the two just don't go together) spewing nonsense after assumption after invective."

Plus you seem to know the mind of God, asserting that that people who are bitter can't be believers.

Or perhaps this is just your own opinion?

You seem so sure.

Since the utterly stupid will be attending Falwell's funeral, it appears that Jacoby will have a front row seat!

I worked on the Reagan campaign in 1980. Falwell was a minor concern at that time, to me at least. Over the years I watched as his wing of the Republican Party made it increasingly uncomfortable, and eventually impossible, for fiscal conservative/social libertarian people such as myself to associate ourselves with his narrow minded theocratic initiatives. Ultimately, this slide culminated in GWB, Iraq, the faith-based initiative, and the subjugation of science to theo-politics.

I won't revel in his death. He has been replaced by others anyway (Kennedy, Dobson, Bauer etc). But I will not mourn his death either. His influence was not positive, his legacy is not either.

To my own embarrassment I felt somewhat happy that Jerry Falwell died. He did an incredible amount of harm in the name of God. I wish God grants him the mercy that Falwell didn't have for those he hated and feared so much.

Munchkins
Ding Dong! The Fundamentalist is dead. Which old Ist? The Funda - mentalist!
Ding Dong! The Fundamentalist is dead.
Wake up - sleepy head, rub your eyes, get out of bed.
Wake up, the Fundamentalist is dead. He's gone where the goblins go,
Below - below - below. Yo-ho, let's open up and sing and ring the bells out.
Ding Dong' the merry-oh, sing it high, sing it low.
Let them know
The Funda - mentalist is dead!

Barrister
But we've got to verify it legally, to see

Mayor
To see?

Barrister
If he

Mayor
If he?

Barrister
Is morally, ethic'lly

Father No.1
Spiritually, physically

Father No. 2
Positively, absolutely

Munchkins
Undeniably and reliably Dead

Coroner
As Coroner I examined him, and I must say, "amen."
he's not only merely dead, he's really most sincerely dead.

Mayor
Yes, let the joyous news be spread The Old Fundumentalist at last is dead!

"If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being." =Jerry Falwell.

From personal experience I've witnessed some really vile behavior; more hatred and lies and utter failure from those who claim to be born-again than anyother group of people.

I feel about his passing in much the same way I would feel about Pat Robertson, GW Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, or Karl Rove's death. Good riddance.

It may be "unbecoming" of people to criticize a man after his death, but at the same time, its highly disconcerning when people lavish praise on a person who did so much to advance the cause of bigotry and prejudce. (Oops there I went)

Death is not a shield against criticism.

Don't know Speechless. From what I read there is an common thread of people who are upset by a national figure who held very strong views against people based on their religion, sexual orientation, etc. Yes, the exchange is a little heated, but I find it encouraging that we are brought together sharing a passionate voice.

Perhaps this is an upside of Falwell's passing.

Compassion for the rest of mankind is what drives these commenters to point out who wrong and harmful Falwell was. He had political power, money and influence.

I didn't 'know his heart'. I only heard what he said and saw what he did, and it was those things that impacted the world. As people of any religion who care for others, that should be enough to condemn him to strong language here.

None of that means the commenters lack compassion or forgiveness. I'd have forgiven him - if he'd changes his views and actions.

Scully

Not sure you can be a person of true faith in God and be an outright bigot either.

While some of the things Mr. Falwell said left me scratching my head and speechless, the words and thoughts I've read these past five minutes leave me equally speechless.

What kind of people have we become?

Now I am sad.

I wish I could say that I am shocked by most of these comments, but alas I cannot. This entire blog is full of faithless people (no matter what many of you say, you cannot be both a person with a true faith in a Creator God and so full of bitterness - the two just don't go together) spewing nonsense after assumption after invective.

The utter lack of logic in these comments isn't suprising either, unfortunately. Many of you ascribe to Falwell your assumptions about what he stood for, or what vision he had for America and the world. Not one of you actually knew him - I didn't either. I cannot presume to know what was in his heart.

I, too, have often been dismayed by his comments, or at least the ones reported in the major media. I don't know why he said some of the things he did. I know I didn't agree with him theologically on many things, but we had others in common. However, I find it illogical for some actually to believe that Falwell wanted to control our every action, especially those in the bedroom, and that he wanted to force little children to pray to "his" God. I mean, please. Advocating against abortion is now intolerant? How 'bout advocating against the death tax, or for liberalization of concealed carry laws? Intolerant, too?

Differences in values don't mean others are the enemy, no matter how vehemently we may disagree. Admittedly, Falwell didn't evince much respectful disagreement either, but the old say is just as true, "two wrongs don't make a right."

This is truly juvenile stuff, people. But, of course, actual reasoned discourse isn't really any of your strong suite, now is it?

Susan,

That was wonderful. I love your mind. And your ability to translate it into memorable words.

Thanks,

sw

I'm hoping that Falwell's followers will join him in heaven ... quickly. The sooner the rapture comes, the sooner the world will be left to us sinners.

BTW - I've always favored the warmer climes, so I don't want him polluting the ambiance in the nether world. I don't think Mark Twain would enjoy his company either.

Ricko:

Yes, we'll all face it, but let's hope we won't be saying "oops!"

Paul

I have followed the deceased's maunderings with raised eyebrown and an occasional chuckle for many years. Since I choose to follow the salutary custom of "not speaking ill of the dead", I am left with nothing to say.