All Comments (41)

Terra,

The government hasn't forgotten those people, would that it had. You are aware that one of the classic three big lies is "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you".

These people have already received about all the government help they can handle and still survive. You wonder why these people are having a difficult time making ends meet? Let me explain it to you. We're paying families the equivalent of 20k a year to stay home and watch TV while by government policy we make it all but impossible to run a business at a profit in certain economic sector.

If Joe Sixpack, representing the people Obama belittle as clinging to guns and religion, is making 10 bucks an hour and his company has 50 + employees it's costing that company around twenty buck total to have Joe on the payroll and that amount goes up every year whether Joe gets a raise or not.

Mayhill Fowler, who just did an article on Michelle Obama...I wanted to throw something. Obama and his wife are being judged on what others are saying. Can he call this Fowler woman that taks about her 43 foot boat and her being a Wellsley Girl...(same school as Hillary, same age as Hillary...ummmmmm) a liar? Does he take the chance of being called "an angry black man"?

So please folks..whether you are for Obama or Hillary...research, believe nothing. Use your own powers of reasoning.

Obama (in my opinion) is a good man, he has not pulled out any of the dirt he could use. His faith is the way he lives his life. That should mean something.

terra

I wonder how many people realize that the whole "Bitter" statement was only part of what Obama said...

It was not to Latte drinking rich folks...but to those whole were prepareing to travel from Calif to Pa to do volunteer service. A question was asked about what to expect..

And what Obama was trying to say was...the people are NOT racist, that they have been forgotten by their goverment, plants closed, their kids are leaving for work, their way of life was disappearing. That when that happens people tend to vote on things they still had...the wedge issues, not the economic issues that they have given up on.

But who missed the context of this story? a "citizen journalist" named Mayhill Fowler. A person that has been writing for Off the Bus in Huffington Post. She has been following Obama around from state to state. (to be continued)

terra

Considering how many haters there are on this comment list, this might be spammed but it's worth saying anyway.

The point Obama was making (and the one that has gone over the haters' heads) is this: the reason that folks are bitter is because of a feeling of POWERLESSNESS -- about their corporate-controlled, duplicitous government; about the no-substance, all BS corporate-controlled media; and about lack of economic opportunities. So, they turn to two things that make them feel less powerless -- religion and guns.

CS

And what I mean to say, Tom, is that the gaffe-happy media has been trying to turn this statement into something it isn't. After all Obama's said and done, they want to define him by one out-of-context statement. It doesn't make sense in terms of Obama's message and actions, because the *reporting of it doesn't.* It's manufacturing outrage, on the very issues Obama was saying bait too many people into voting against their own interests.

"And it’s a particularly odd claim for Barack Obama to make."

That's because he was referring to these things in the sense of people clinging to guns and religious issues and xenophobia as *political issues* as opposed to dealing directly with their economic frustrations, or expecting better.

Make more sense, now, than how the media spun it?

On another issue, the choice of calling other believers "irrational bible-thumpers" is at best, demeaning, and at worse, remarkably offensive. I'd like to proffer Mme. Thistlethwaite a good deal more Christian charity, humility, and compassion than she apparently has available for me. Our church doors and the doors of my house are open to her at any time. The arugula is free, the skim lattes will be poured by a practiced hand (and hopefully up to snuff in her estimation), and we'll keep the guns locked in the closet and the bible safely out of view.

Am I the only one here to notice that Mme. Thistlethwaite 'liberally' misrepresents Kristol's comments? In his NY Times piece Kristol barely even mentions Obama's religion. Here, verbatim, is the only mention of Obama's religion in the whole article (if you don't believe, take the time to look it up yourself):

"It’s another thing for an American presidential candidate to claim that we “cling to ... religion” out of economic frustration.

And it’s a particularly odd claim for Barack Obama to make. After all, in his speech at the 2004 Democratic convention, he emphasized with pride that blue-state Americans, too, “worship an awesome God.”

What’s more, he’s written eloquently in his memoir, “Dreams From My Father,” of his own religious awakening upon hearing the Rev. Jeremiah Wright’s “Audacity of Hope” sermon, and of the complexity of his religious commitment. You’d think he’d do other believers the courtesy of assuming they’ve also thought about their religious beliefs."

There is no way you can fairly take from that (and I mean on the surface, without delving into your own preconceptions about Kristol or Republicans/conservatives as a group) that Kristol is questioning Obama's faith or his commitment to it. He does seem to be saying that Obama has thought a lot about his faith, but on the face of it the "bitter" speech assumes that the people he's discussing haven't thought about theirs.

I think it can be fairly said that Mme. Thistlethwaite missed the point in a rush to judge someone she clearly disagrees with. That's wrong from the standpoint of debate and argument; whatever her motives, it's not a particularly Christian stance to take, either.

Being a native of small-town Western Pennsylvania, what Obama said is true, but best left unsaid.

Faith is mind and heart?

What in the world does that mean, if anything? Is that supposed to sum up a religious epistemology, somehow, or is it just more obfuscating jabberwocky to rationalize the holding of irrational beliefs?

Presidents of theological seminaries would certainly seem a cut above ignorant "bible-thumpers," in that they believe not sheer nonsense but sophisticated nonsense. Granted.

But the supernatural beliefs of virtually all relgions are no more based in fact and logic, or even in daily commonsense, than are beliefs in astrology, or in the tooth fairy, or in stone idols.

Even worse, there is not a single, substantiated instance in the history of mankind of "faith" ever leading to real knowledge. Not one. And I challenge Rev. Thistleaite to prove me wrong if she can.

And as Hippocrates said, "To really know is science; To merely believe you know is ignorance."

No matter what the thinker's "heart" says to the contrary.

"What tremendous sin did Senator Obama commit that you should demean his Christian faith? He listened to people who are being crushed by our faltering economy and he thought about their lives in a deep and complex way."

Actually, it didn't sound to me like Sen. Obama really gave any thought to his answer but replied with glib stereotypes and out of his own prejudices, demeaning the faith of small town Americans. Apparently, he and other members of his church are allowed to have their faith without being accused of seeking refuge in religion, drugs, alcohol, and other ills stereotypically associated with urban life.

He claims bitterness is why small towners are "anti-trade" and "anti-(illegal) immigrant". To what does he owe HIS avowed opposition to trade and his support of the border fence? He claims that "small town" residents oppose these out of frustration, and makes it sound like there are no legitimate rational reasons other than "bitterness" or "hate". What are HIS motives? Is he genuinely concerned about the harm trade policies and illegal immigration do to people or is this just more posturing along the lines of that reported in his dealings with the Canadian government on NAFTA?

Senator Obama has hit the nail right on it's big broad head. People are angry, very angry at the things our federal government has and is doing. does the term "silent Majority " still ring a bell?

Yonkers, New York
16 April 2008

Thank you, Susan Brooks, for lecturing William Kristol on the subect of faith. He probably could use another lecture on Das Kapital, but let somebody else do it. Somebody like Princeton University Professor Paul Krugman.

I do agree with you that those blue-collar workers in those small towns of Pennsylvania are not that fragile as Mr. Kristol must mistakenly assume they are.

I would even daresay that they are tougher than Mr. Kristol and his kind because they have to face tougher and grimmer challenges as they go through their everyday lives.

I am certain of one thing. They cannot be hurt that badly by that "bitter" speech about them which Barack Obama delivered in San Francisco recently.

Barack Obama deserves to be complimented for calling a spade a spade, for not going around the political bush--in short, for telling his audience and the whole world the truth, no matter how harsh and even brutal that be.

Are those small-town people in Pennsylvania afraid of the truth?

I don't think so.

Mariano Patalinjug
MarPatalinjug@aol.com

Well Said, Ms. Thistlethwaite. Thank you for your faith based wisdom.

What is both amusing and encouraging is that all of these "pundits" and their so-called "controversies" start off with some attack on Senator Obama, and end up getting a lesson in Modernity.

It seems as if the American Electorate is no longer so quick to be manipulated into embracing their basest fears, which is very encouraging. It is no longer fool-proof to claim someone is not religious enough, not White enough, not Christian enough, not American enough. These stale-minded, outdated talking heads like Kristol and Co. cannot seem to grasp that the Times, they are a changing.

Better start swimming, or you'll sink like your argument.

Obama's comments reflect several things - an acknowledgement of reality - that the voters, by and large, are bitter. The comments also acknowledge that these voters, driven by bitterness, often turn to other sources of empowerment be it religion, community, patriotism, whatever. I think what Obama and the subsequent maelstrom of indignation failed to realize is WHAT contributes to this bitterness? Could it be the fear of losing the family home? The steadily rising cost of property taxes and mortgages against a stagnant or declining income that no longer covers the basic: shelter, food, and clothing? Could it be the lack of healthcare? Could it be the decaying infrastructure? Could it be watching our children strive in school knowing that the opportunity to attend college is increasingly out of reach? Could be from buying a fraudulent war where small town America has paid the highest price and still pays = in the lives of their young, in the demise of their business, in the loss of the family homestead? I'd say the american voter has much to be bitter about - I'd say 8 years without true government representation is enough to many patriotic American more than just a bit bitter.

With all due respect, Dr. Thistlethwaite, I, a Truman Democrat, am, like Kristol, still waiting to hear precisely just what it is that both Obama and Clinton believe, spiritually. To this point, all I've heard from the two on the subject of religion is standard politically-correct regurgitation of gobbledygook, and such silliness does absolutely nothing to sustain me in this hour of sharply bitter infighting among Democratic Party candidates. Your zeal, Professor, would likely be better directed at either of the two disharmonious, deceitful candidates--and not Kristol. If indeed both candidates don't pull their heads' from their arses' come November, it'll result in yet another Republican victory. And at this point, Republicans--after losing a very humiliating election in 11-07--are likely incredulous that we're figuratively handing them our head on a silver platter.

"I am constantly stunned about how liberals in this country agree with every bad thing said about America, and yet don't understand why America refuses to put any of them in the White House."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Well let's see what you've gotten from putting "conservatives" in the White House. Trillion dollar wars, recessions, high unemployment, outsourcing, millions of illegal aliens. You're doing a heck of a job, keep it up.

Bravo!

Oh, *do* explain what that is, Haz, or did you just feel like spamming.

And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
And these are the garments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a broidered coat, a mitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
And thou shalt put the two stones upon the shoulders of the ephod for stones of memorial unto the children of Israel: and Aaron shall bear their names before the Lord upon his two shoulders for a memorial.

“whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom”
“Aaron's garments to consecrate him”
“And these are the garments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ephod”
“two stones upon the shoulders of the ephod for stones of memorial unto the children of Israel”

But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel:

“from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel”

And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the Lord: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.
If ye forsake the Lord, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.
And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the Lord.
And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the Lord, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.
Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the Lord God of Israel.
And the people said unto Joshua, The Lord our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey.
So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem.
And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the sanctuary of the Lord.
And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the Lord which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God.

“And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the sanctuary of the Lord.”

“this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the Lord which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God.”

“And these are the garments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ephod”
“two stones upon the shoulders of the ephod for stones of memorial unto the children of Israel”

“this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the Lord which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God.”

“And when they did mete it with an omer”
“Now an omer is the tenth part of an ephah.”

“two stones upon the shoulders of the ephod”
“from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel”

“whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom”

And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

“two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life”
“two stones upon the shoulders of the ephod”
“two stones upon the shoulders of the ephod”

And, Rick, if I think you're any kind of slow on the uptake, well, maybe it's just cause I heard some people say they were gonna save me from Hell and Commies, as long as my cooch was forefeit to the Pope and duly-authorized representatives, thereof.

Learned it kind of early, me, poor condemned soul from Southie I am.

And I'll add, Rick, it's not any 'liberal elitism' that gives you no credit for brains.

It's conservative *anti-intellectualism.*

You think you're all that worldly-wise, you better *use some of them brains* instead of letting people direct them toward things that don't actually matter so much.

Are you prepared to evaluate me as a human being?

I believe in different Gods, I live with someone whose genitals you apparently don't approve of in the particular combination we try to enjoy. You think I want to take your guns when, frankly, more than once I've had to face down the torches-and-pitchforks brigade.

Not so big on taking Fox spin as 'Gospel,' me. Go figure.

And, yes, too, treat their 'religion' like a *weapon.*

Shouldn't be so. Not here.

"See, your explanation is exactly the problem us "bitter small town folks" have with Obama and liberals. When unable to explain something away, you try to bamboozle us Harvard prose that can only be deciphered by philosophers. I would reply to your post, unfortunately, I have no idea what you meant. Even if you are siding with me or Obama. Simplicity my dear liberal brothers will get you far. Say what you mean in plain English."

No bamboozle. You imagine I never farmed, killed my own dinner, carried a firearm or was shot at. You know where I live? But I understand what he said. People are taught to have hostility toward others, cradle a weapon and feel powerful, when really, their livelihoods are being sapped away by people who claim 'Labor people want your gun.'

Paganplace wrote:
What Obama was speaking of, Rick, was not disrespect tor your (and his) religion, not even about *guns,* ...but how these become surrogate senses of power people cling to... sources of aggression, instead of what they are or are 'meant' to be.

For such nuance, he's called an 'elitist.' But, really, he's promising more than a Bible and a Mossberg to point at the nearest 'liberal.'

See, your explanation is exactly the problem us "bitter small town folks" have with Obama and liberals. When unable to explain something away, you try to bamboozle us Harvard prose that can only be deciphered by philosophers. I would reply to your post, unfortunately, I have no idea what you meant. Even if you are siding with me or Obama. Simplicity my dear liberal brothers will get you far. Say what you mean in plain English.

That's some words, Haz, not 'the truth.'

What Obama was speaking of, Rick, was not disrespect tor your (and his) religion, not even about *guns,* ...but how these become surrogate senses of power people cling to... sources of aggression, instead of what they are or are 'meant' to be.

For such nuance, he's called an 'elitist.' But, really, he's promising more than a Bible and a Mossberg to point at the nearest 'liberal.'

“The truth, you want the truth? You can’t handle the truth!”

And Jacob went out from Beersheba, and went toward Haran.
And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep.
And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.
And, behold, the Lord stood above it, and said, I am the Lord God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;
And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.
And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the Lord is in this place; and I knew it not.
And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.
And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it.
And he called the name of that place Bethel: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first.
And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,
So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the Lord be my God:
And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

“of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.”

Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God:
And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.
Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:
And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear the burden with thee.
If thou shalt do this thing, and God command thee so, then thou shalt be able to endure, and all this people shall also go to their place in peace.
And Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the people, rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens.
And they judged the people at all seasons: the hard causes they brought unto Moses, but every small matter they judged themselves.
“And Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the people rulers of tens.”

“of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.”

“heads over the people” “rulers of tens.” “I will surely give the tenth unto thee.”

This is the thing which the Lord hath commanded, Gather of it every man according to his eating, an omer for every man, according to the number of your persons; take ye every man for them which are in his tents.
And the children of Israel did so, and gathered, some more, some less.
And when they did mete it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; they gathered every man according to his eating.
And Moses said, Let no man leave of it till the morning.

“And when they did mete it with an omer”

And the children of Israel did eat manna forty years, until they came to a land inhabited; they did eat manna, until they came unto the borders of the land of Canaan.
Now an omer is the tenth part of an ephah.

“Now an omer is the tenth part of an ephah.”

Dear Rev.Thistlethwaite,
For one taught to think I am surprised that you missed the link between bitterness and Faith. Bitter people cling to church according to the Obama memo because they are bitter. How on earth for a thinking woman did you miss the connection so clearly drawn by Obama? Need I point out the other clingings he related that faithful night in the Bay Area?

I am getting so tired of dishonest liberals trying to spin this story. Yes, people are bitter in America. The part all these Obama apologists always conveniently leave out in their spin is, he then went on to say, it is because of this bitterness, they go to church, have guns and are anti-immigrant. What Messiah Obama and his believers firmly believe is when the Great One Obama takes over and "mends the broken souls" of those bitter small town folks, they will stop going to church and give up their guns. If you liberals cannot see what is wrong with that, you will never get it. It is why McCain wins in November. I am constantly stunned about how liberals in this country agree with every bad thing said about America, and yet don't understand why America refuses to put any of them in the White House.

Yah, clearly that's all this is about, 'Roxanne.'

'Liberals' aren't the ones claiming 'one truths.'

We're saying, Best live without em, instead of fighting over illusory senses of them.

I see you've picked up on the new line about Obama being 'elitist' for being literate.

Speaking of Catholic experiences, is that really how you want to live?

Great, only latte liberals know the "truth" and what is wrong with "others" How absurd!

I am Black, working-class democrat, living in Jamaica New York, and I think there is such a person as an educated fool.

And, Susan, if you want to debate God, Bible and Guns with me, I welcome that debate. Bring your Snobama with you, and your army of liberal snobs. I can promise you, I would figuratively take all of you by the hair, and wipe the floor with you! I am ten times smarter than any you and your empty-suit Snob because I am what you are all still desperately trying to pin a label to. How about just asking me!Oh I forgot! I am too stupid to know what is wrong with me. I need you and Snobama to tell me what is wrong with me.

Get over yourselves already!

Hillary supporter and proud of it!

Is this just another way the UCC endorses Barack Obama?

I don't agree with this: "In the UCC there is no opposition between heart and head, between thinking and belief."

... I believe that the UCC has a way to go before they can see themselves as a "thinking" church. Their justification for Rev. Wright's diatribes so not encourage me to see them as a "thinking" congregation.

Pretty good Prof. Thistlethwaite, though I duno about that Cotton Mather stuff: Louisville Sluggers get involved, there.

There's a story on Yahoo about how the "bitter" remark is not affecting voters nearly as much as the press coverage. It's possible he's found a way to tell the truths that for too long have been filtered in our modern discourse. He did the same thing in his pastor speech in Philadelphia.

That fact alone might make him the best choice.
(I'm personally still on the fence among all three.)

John V Carey wrote:
"But to say they turning to God, Guns and anti Immigration is part of their bitterness. Then you and Mr Obama know very little about the people in America."

On the contrary. I'm from a small town in Pennsylvania, and Obama's statement is more or less exactly right. I honestly can't see what all the fuss is about this.

Attached is the quote by Obama that has caused contoversy:

"You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them," And they fell through the Clinton Administration, and the Bush Administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

It is telling that Thistlethwaite includes no substantial portion of this quote in her defense of Obama, but instead focuses in on "bitterness" that he sees lurking in Western Pennsylvanian and other parts of small town America. This omission on her part is not surprising. After all, if the only thing a reader knows about the quote is the "bitterness" comment, then her defense rests on the simple task of asserting that those who are offended are blind to the horrible plight faced by voters in rural areas. Unfortunately, as she well knows, the real issue here is that this handsome, smooth, charming individual has made the mistake of saying what he really thinks about the folks whose vote he must lower himself in order to win. Namely, Obama suggests that such folks are a bunch of gun lusting, snake handling, ignorant racists....but, hey, that's alright, it's all because "they're bitter".

Well said Susan. I especially liked you analogy with "A few good men".

It seems like many pundits and columnists insist on reading some much meaning into Obama's words. And then you have Hillary, sucking down a shot and a beer so that everyone is left with the impression that she more accurately "pretends" to be one of the boys.

In reading the various columns around, conservatives would rather the Hillary/Obama competition continued for as long as possible and then somehow, Hillary will seize the nomination from Obama so that the democratic party splinters.

It's too bad the media acts like sheep. There doesn't seem to be much objectivity simply follow the news cycle for as long as possible.

Why is it odd to say that people need someone to blame for their plight i.e. immigrants, and tend to vote on guns, religion or in the case of millions of people who voted for GW Bush 2004, outlawing homosexual marriage?

Americans have always tried to place themselves above someone else and don't always vote their pocket book.

Obama simply spoke the truth that no one wants to acknowledge.

What's sad is the media's onslaught against Barack---FOX News especially, that has run virtually non-stop negative Obama messages through their propagandists aka "news correspondents".

I think you missed the point or rather you are spinning the point. Mr Obama and Rev Wright come from a background of Black Liberated theology, and it appears you also come from a liberated theology. I would say the bitterness is part of Obama's life after listening to Wrigth for years.

Small town Americans have a taste of Bitterness, against their jobs being outsourced, against being deprived oppurtunities in the workplace, rising costs, and sacrificing their sons for a thankless generation.

But to say they turning to God, Guns and anti Immigration is part of their bitterness. Then you and Mr Obama know very little about the people in America.

Thanks for the sermon. I should have remembered to check my brain at the door before reading this masterpiece.

Susan, you forgot Reinhold and Richard Niebuhr!