All Comments (136)

I find it quite amazing how we fail to recognize one of the simplest and profound statements mankind has ever uttered, "treet others as we would have them treat us". If we could all live up to the Golden Rule, all other law would be useless. Perhaps in the end the demise of our species is the only answer to the continuation of the remainder.
When the writings of people such as reverand Thistlethwaite don't draw the attantion of the masses, how can we have any other expectation for our future?

Well, who knows why it began, all I know is that all these wars on "terrorism" (or terrorist wars - which ever way you want to look at it), have helped George W. Bush stay in power. Wars are a great distraction from the innocent families in America who don't fair well under a capitalist agenda. Wars are a great distraction from peace and prosperity. If you don't know how to run a country, just invest all your money in the military, attack another nation, tell everyone that God told you to do it, and you'll be fine.

Allan.

Well, who knows why it began, all I know is that all these wars on "terrorism" (or terrorist wars - which ever way you want to look at it), have helped George W. Bush stay in power. Wars are a great distraction from the innocent families in America who don't fair well under a capitalist agenda. Wars are a great distraction from peace and prosperity. If you don't know how to run a country, just invest all your money in the military, attack another nation, tell everyone that God told you to do it, and you'll be fine.

Allan.

Well, who knows why it began, all I know is that all these wars on "terrorism" (or terrorist wars - which ever way you want to look at it), have helped George W. Bush stay in power. Wars are a great distraction from the innocent families in America who don't fair well under a capitalist agenda. Wars are a great distraction from peace and prosperity. If you don't know how to run a country, just invest all your money in the military, attack another nation, tell everyone that God told you to do it, and you'll be fine.

Allan.

Pride is why we stay oil is the reason it began.

I USED to think that religion was the most dangerous drug of ALL - now I`m convincd religion
isn`t merely a drug, but rather, a *disease* (on par with schizophrenia, et al)

No, a spoiled, stupid brat led by his nose ring by people that are excellent at brown nosing, and playing up to people that are powerful, stupid and totally egocentric.

God is the final arbiter.

The stench of our collective sin has reached to the heavens and his judgement is pending.

Whatever form that judgement takes will be well deserved.

Rev. Thistlethwaite's translation of Proverbs is straightforward: We need to get out of Iraq.

I would ask: How do you do that?
Now that the fruits of pride have been planted and have for seven years taken root, what else does one say when saying goodbye?
The harvest of these fruits may not be tasteful to Americans, nor will they easy to stomach in Iraq. Who is willing to lead a withdrawal before the big bombs begin to fall?

Rev. Thistlethwaite's translation of Proverbs is straightforward: We need to get out of Iraq.

I would ask: How do you do that?
Now that the fruits of pride have been planted and have for seven years taken root, what else does one say when saying goodbye?
The harvest of these fruits may not be tasteful to Americans, nor will they easy to stomach in Iraq. Who is willing to lead a withdrawal before the big bombs begin to fall?

Every person is born with pride is it one of (Animal Instincts) based on ignorance the more ignorance the more the pride cling to you. The people behind this kind of crimes would have pride as they are human, but moreover they use their follower pride and ego to manoeuvre them toward the noose they have prepared for them. Pride makes it barer blind to truth and stays ignorant. Now lets everyone of us look at himself and find where, why and how EGO is coming from understand it the put it in a secure box then we will see the world in Black and White no grey area.
Remember that Human is creature of habits, once starts doing things in certain way he/she stuck with it until finds the well.
Remember Capitalism is by default and policy change peoples habits to suit itself regardless using all the tools in its deposal.

So we are to blame due to ignorance of the truth, not knowing what the human being is and how it works.

Here’s something for you friends

1. Knowledge is the legacy of the prophets. Wealth is the inheritance of the Pharaohs. Therefore, knowledge is better than wealth.
2. You are to guard your wealth but knowledge guards you. So knowledge is better.
3. A man of wealth has many enemies while a man of knowledge has many friends. Hence knowledge is better.
4. Knowledge is better because it increases with distribution, while wealth decreases by that act.
5. Knowledge is better because a learned man is apt to be generous while a wealthy person is apt to be miserly.
6. Knowledge is better because it cannot be stolen while wealth can be stolen.
7. Knowledge is better because time cannot harm knowledge, but wealth rusts in course of time and wears away.
8. Knowledge is better because it is boundless while wealth is limited and you can keep account of it.
9. Knowledge is better because it illuminates the mind while wealth is apt to blacken it.
10. Knowledge is better because knowledge induced the humanity in our Prophet to say to Allah, "We worship Thee as we are Your servant," while wealth engendered in Pharaoh and Nimrod the vanity which made them claim Godhead.

What wisdom! Yet today our people are dispassionate about seeking knowledge. Why? Do they know what Imam Ibn Hazm (R) - the great Spanish Muslim theologian, jurist and poet - said? He said, “If knowledge had no other merit than to make the ignorant fear and respect you, and scholars love and honor you, this would be good enough reason to seek after it… If ignorance had no other fault than to make the ignorant man jealous of knowledgeable men and jubilant at seeing more people like himself, this by itself would be reason enough to oblige us to feel it… If knowledge and the action of devoting oneself to it had no purpose except to free the man who seeks it from the exhausting anxieties and many worries which afflict the mind, that alone would certainly be enough to drive us to seek knowledge.” [4] I only wish that his remarks would wake our people to seeking and mastering knowledge.

Ignorant fools.

1. The West understanding of Democracy is like waving for one of the two Taxies then the Taxi driver takes you wherever he wants and you are paying the fares.
2. What does “With us or against us” mean? Does that mean I m right and the rest of humanity is wrong, doesn’t that what a dictatorship base upon……Ironic……”for fellow Americans you need to look in the dictionary for that”.
3. Why when we talk about Iran we automatically regard them as an enemy, just because they don’t jump when we say jump, or because they know how the west think, and its weakness and we can’t fool or scare them like we have done to the Arabs, and in return terrifies us……….what they know and have that we don’t……….. Think Freely please………. you might get it…………… I think they want to help us from self harming ourselves by our ignorance, short term policies based on greed, arrogance, ego and shallowness….. by bullying ……..just be honest with ourselves … is a virtue …… bless………

The problem is in us and our lack of relationship with each other. Money has replaced salvation. What a shame..

How could you be so stupid? OIL caused us to attack Iraq.

Where is God to help the Palestians and the Iraqs? How about you bible thumpers sa a prayer today to wake -up god and punish the chosen ones?
Get this--911 attacks were not done by Arabs,unless you consider Isrealies as such. Wake-up fools. Those morons that still spout that Saddam was evil and gassed his own people--get wise fools. The gas was given to Saddam by USA and the Iranians got it from Israel. Oh where is that God--when you need him most ?
Blame the Christians on the mess USA caused throughout the world--bullchips. Mel Gibson was right --enough said!

In my view it is more likely than not that there is no god. Belief in god and religion does not have exclusive rights to the human values that would keep us from waging war and teach us to love and care for one another. So believing or not believing, trusting or not trusting god have little to do with it. Actually "belief" and a self serving (greed, quest for power, american exceptionalism, etc.)interpretation of the bible(religion)is what contributed the crime of Iraq.

I am a person who believes in karmic retribution and that in a very big picture, no one gets away with a thing.
I wonder abouy a Scale of Justice for the slaughter of innocent people with the anguished cries of war of aggression widows,orphans and cripples rising all around.
What is the counter balance on the scale to military arrogance and active indifference?

..

Sorry to disagree with you Reverend.

Pride may have told us we would win this war and arrogance may have hardened us to its costs in terms of Iraqi and American lives, but this war was started and continues for the benefit of Israel. The vast majority of our legislators and officials of the executive branch either receive political contributions from the Pro-Israeli Lobby or live in fear of crossing the Pro-Israeli Lobby. At the bequest of that Lobby and the state of Israel, our government conceived and pursued this war with the goal of eliminating a major "so-called" threat to Israel's existence and ensuring permanent Israeli hegemony in the region. One could wisely argue that Israel's position has weakened as a result of this campaign. While that is true, it does not change the original purpose of the war and it only reinforces the cravenness and stupidity (there's that new sin again) of our compromised elected officials who insist on continuing the war.

Pride and Arrogance may be sins but they fall short of describing the evil carried out in the name of our government. I believe John Lennon's words apply equally well in 1970 as they do today. All we are saying, to Israel and America, is give peace a chance.

..

Nice try, but Christianity had nothing to do with our invasion or war in Iraq! Not out of any sense of "Religious Blather", Christian duty, or Sin of Pride, but out of "FEAR" of attact & self defence, based on intel misinformation. WMD.

The Just War Theory gives society the right of "self defence" but can not result in greater destruction than existed before the war. The Pope warned us and did not support the invasion!

I will attribute this one Religious attachment to war! IMO, wars are permitted by God as punishment for sin! While the Church prays for peace and deliverance from wars in the midst of abortion,euthanasia, porn, sins against nature and natural sex, drugs, murders, abuse, etc...we still get war, because of society's sins.

But you go ahead and keep blaming it on Christians, and I'll keep blaming it on the sins of the world.(It's the bigger picture!)

Nice try, but Christianity had nothing to do with our invasion or war in Iraq! Not out of any sense of "Religious Blather", Christian duty, or Sin of Pride, but out of "FEAR" of attact & self defence, based on intel misinformation. WMD.

The Just War Theory gives society the right of "self defence" but can not result in greater destruction than existed before the war. The Pope warned us and did not support the invasion!

I will attribute this one Religious attachment to war! IMO, wars are permitted by God as punishment for sin! While the Church prays for peace and deliverance from wars in the midst of abortion,euthanasia, porn, sins against nature and natural sex, drugs, murders, abuse, etc...we still get war, because of society's sins.

But you go ahead and keep blaming it on Christians, and I'll keep blaming it on the sins of the world.(It's the bigger picture!)

Nice try, but Christianity had nothing to do with our invasion or war in Iraq! Not out of any sense of Christian duty or Sin of Pride, but out of "FEAR" of attact & self defence, based on intel misinformation. WMD.

The Just War Theory gives society the right of "self defence" but can not result in greater destruction than existed before the war. The Pope warned us and did not support the invasion!

I will attribute this one Religious attachment to war! IMO, wars are permitted by God as punishment for sin! While the Church prays for peace and deliverance from wars in the midst of abortion,euthanasia, porn, sins against nature and natural sex, drugs, murders, abuse, etc...we still get war, because of society's sins.

But you go ahead and keep blaming it on Christians, and I'll keep blaming it on the sins of the world.(It's the bigger picture!)

Nice try, but Christianity had nothing to do with our invasion or war in Iraq! Not out of any sense of Christian duty or Sin of Pride, but out of "FEAR" of attact & self defence, based on intel misinformation. WMD.

The Just War Theory gives society the right of "self defence" but can not result in greater destruction than existed before the war. The Pope warned us and did not support the invasion!

I will attribute this one Religious attachment to war! IMO, wars are permitted by God as punishment for sin! While the Church prays for peace and deliverance from wars in the midst of abortion,euthanasia, porn, sins against nature and natural sex, drugs, murders, abuse, etc...we still get war, because of society's sins.

But you go ahead and keep blaming it on Christians, and I'll keep blaming it on the sins of the world.(It's the bigger picture!)

USA is selfappointed police force of the world.
Who is the police the USA? Just nobody.
USA can interfere when Serbs killed the muslim Bosniance.No need to take any action in Darfur,or Israely aggression last 60 years.Provide assistance to Iraq on Iran war.Chemical weapon on Vitnam war(Agent Orange),carpet bombing in Cambodia,nuclear attack on Hyroshima - Nagasaki.

Whole world is not so innocence either,nobody doing anything just waiting Bush presidential term ends on 2009.

So maybe we are desrve to be ruled by a man who is so stupid but(Stupidity is not a sin)so its ok.
We are not so proud after all to be ruled by this ignorant man.

One question:
Those people murdered and theyr supporters(ONE BILLION MUSLIMS)do we think they don't have a pride to fight back if they find a time and means to fight back.And time they do have and means certenly will have,probably working owertime)

Irony is that most likely all muslim countries will have a WOMD probably very soon.

USA is selfappointed police force of the world.
Who is the police the USA? Just nobody.
USA can interfere when Serbs killed the muslim Bosniance.No need to take any action in Darfur,or Israely aggression last 60 years.Provide assistance to Iraq on Iran war.Chemical weapon on Vitnam war(Agent Orange),carpet bombing in Cambodia,nuclear attack on Hyroshima - Nagasaki.

Whole world is not so innocence either,nobody doing anything just waiting Bush presidential term ends on 2009.

So maybe we are desrve to be ruled by a man who is so stupid but(Stupidity is not a sin)so its ok.
We are not so proud after all to be ruled by this ignorant man.

One question:
Those people murdered and theyr supporters(ONE BILLION MUSLIMS)do we think they don't have a pride to fight back if they find a time and means to fight back.And time they do have and means certenly will have,probably working owertime)

Irony is that most likely all muslim countries will have a WOMD probably very soon.

USA is selfappointed police force of the world.
Who is the police the USA? Just nobody.
USA can interfere when Serbs killed the muslim Bosniance.No need to take any action in Darfur,or Israely aggression last 60 years.Provide assistance to Iraq on Iran war.Chemical weapon on Vitnam war(Agent Orange),carpet bombing in Cambodia,nuclear attack on Hyroshima - Nagasaki.

Whole world is not so innocence either,nobody doing anything just waiting Bush presidential term ends on 2009.

So maybe we are desrve to be ruled by a man who is so stupid but(Stupidity is not a sin)so its ok.
We are not so proud after all to be ruled by this ignorant man.

One question:
Those people murdered and theyr supporters(ONE BILLION MUSLIMS)do we think they don't have a pride to fight back if they find a time and means to fight back.And time they do have and means certenly will have,probably working owertime)

Irony is that most likely all muslim countries will have a WOMD probably very soon.

Pride didnt propel us into attacking Iraq. Israel and the neocons did. Wake up and pray for enlightenment.

The invasion of Iraq was to secure the reelection of George W. Bush after the humiliation of 9-11. Of course, trillions in debt, 4 million driven from their homes, and hundreds of thousands are now dead, but who cares? Mission Accomplished!!! Hooray!! Bush was reelected!!! He got to land on the aircraft carrier!!!

Love.

Keep it up moody the willingness of murderous swine like the Taliban to die in droves before the weapons of the West is a great aid in ridding Islam of this scourge of 14th century barbarians.

Keep it up moody the willingness of murderous swine like the Taliban to die in droves before the weapons of the West is a great aid in ridding Islam of this scourge of 14th century barbarians.

Come on bring it on in Afghanistan.
We would love to see you going bankrupt with your crumbling economy and dollar.

American cawords will ALSO be humilated in Afghanistan like the Russians.

In Afghanistan who ever oppose USA is branded as Taliban and that is more than 90% of population STILL controlling more than 80% of the country.

USA supported Taliban to defeat Communism.
Don't you think now Russia is also supporting Taliban to humilate warmongaring capitialist, zionist secular Monstor.

Your eneimies enemy is your friend!!!!

Nonsense Mr. Abbott.

Pride is truly a deadly sin, and for those who suffer from it, like our "president", it is turning out to be deadly for thousands of others who, for the most part are innocent of doing anything except what "King " George and his 'stooges' tell them too.
I refer to our troops and the people of Iran!
Bush's un-mitigated lust for power and money have made him so full of HIMSELF there's hardly any room for the cowardice he also possesses!
When he was 'serving' his country he stayed 'hid out' most of the time, but NOW he is Mr. Gung-ho because he doesn't have to put his life on the line every day as our brave young men and women do!
As for him being a 'Christian' I have a theory on politicians and Christians that goes like this: YOU CAN BE ONE OR THE OTHER...BUT NOT BOTH!
Jerry F. Abbott,Alabama
Korean War Veteran

Pride is truly a deadly sin, and for those who suffer from it, like our "president", it is turning out to be deadly for thousands of others who, for the most part are innocent of doing anything except what "King " George and his 'stooges' tell them too.
I refer to our troops and the people of Iran!
Bush's un-mitigated lust for power and money have made him so full of HIMSELF there's hardly any room for the cowardice he also possesses!
When he was 'serving' his country he stayed 'hid out' most of the time, but NOW he is Mr. Gung-ho because he doesn't have to put his life on the line every day as our brave young men and women do!
As for him being a 'Christian' I have a theory on politicians and Christians that goes like this: YOU CAN BE ONE OR THE OTHER...BUT NOT BOTH!
Jerry F. Abbott,Alabama
Korean War Veteran

Pride is truly a deadly sin, and for those who suffer from it, like our "president", it is turning out to be deadly for thousands of others who, for the most part are innocent of doing anything except what "King " George and his 'stooges' tell them too.
I refer to our troops and the people of Iran!
Bush's un-mitigated lust for power and money have made him so full of HIMSELF there's hardly any room for the cowardice he also possesses!
When he was 'serving' his country he stayed 'hid out' most of the time, but NOW he is Mr. Gung-ho because he doesn't have to put his life on the line every day as our brave young men and women do!
As for him being a 'Christian' I have a theory on politicians and Christians that goes like this: YOU CAN BE ONE OR THE OTHER...BUT NOT BOTH!
Jerry F. Abbott,Alabama
Korean War Veteran

Again Hitler said many things in his speeches. In Mein Kampf he wrote of his beliefs. Which one do you think is going to more accurately represent his true views? Speeches given to inspire a public that was largely Christian at least nominally or His book in which he pored out his soul as damaged as that soul was? I'll go with the Book.

Additionally, I'm still shocked about Huckabee's "putting that Constitution in it's place..." described so well over on the Georgetown Blog at this site.

Terry, well said I think.

Get ready for the "fear factor" to be a part of the upcoming political campaigns. From the Guillani "9/11" verbage to the "Democrats are soft on terror" to the "we need a fearless leader like McCain who will lead us battling ahead on this war on terror."

Instead of working toward the huge domestic issues we face as a nation, we'll be hashing around proposals such as HR 888, amnesty for telecommunications "spying" activities, abortion, gay marriage, "family values." "War on...." seems to be a registered trademark of the republican party.

Sorry for the rant. I've been reading too much Glenn Greenwald I guess. It's lunchtime and I just need to eat.

RJ -

Couldn't help reading your post. Some folks are chronically at war, and some are not. You appear to be one who sees war in every neighborhood and on every street corner (I'm guessing an occupational hazard??) I was in 'Nam myself & my view is different - wrong war, wrong time, and wrong place....victory was never an option contrary to your claims that the 'liberals' pulled out early. I've heard that one before. Hey, 10 years ought to be long enough to win any war. It's time to stop fighting that one.

Iraq - wrong war, wrong time, wrong place and wrong (phony) reasons. Yes, Bush has a legacy and it's called preemptive war (a real American first). Evangelicals were behind this war and they'd be pretty happy to see us drop a few bombs in Iran, don't you suppose?? Should anybody trust evangelicals in government ever again?? Probably not...and they may not be done with us yet.

Everyone dies, just not today, right?? How is it that the creators of war (and their offspring) never get to do any of the fighting and dieing?? Damned mystery if you ask me - just wasn't their day to die I guess.

There's danger lurking everywhere, and religion never saved a single soul from their inevitable demise - sometimes religion even hurries things along, if you know what I mean.

Fight when you have to, otherwise take it easy....the end will come soon enough. Panic and fear went a long way toward getting the public behind the invasion of Iraq, just as panic and fear is stoking the big Wall street sell-off - totally irrational, but everyone's scared of ..... well, something, but what??

Might as well relax because ... the end is coming. That's the one thing that is guaranteed.

Real sin should be defined as the lack of remorse or regret for acting against humanity. We are all guilty at one point or another based on the seven deadly sins. Denial becomes the self fulfilling prophecy but does not erase the sin. Lack of remorse or regret for violation against humanity is sin.
It is personal.
Iraq? We all share in this sin because we bestowed our trust in a leader who is unworthy. Bestowing trust many times is a black hole. Being a child about it is easy. Its the growing up part that's difficult.

What would Jesus say about all this?

Right in, Nick! Well said !

BUSH attacked IRAQ because it is a weak country
without WMD. would he dare to attack CHINA?RUSSIA?

Hi Nick!

Again, I want to say that I admire your obvious "lust" for peace. If only it could be so. But, again, I simply have to ask you to come down from your soap box long enough to take that breather. Partner, I don't hate you. Let me say it again... I don't hate you. And your quest for peace is truly inspiring, albeit pure, unatainable idealism. The problem with your theory, even if no other theory is acceptable to you, is that coexistence is just simply a pipe dream. When you were taking those college courses, did you ever study sociology? Why do blacks live in black neighborhoods, Nick? Why latinos in latino neighborhoods? Why asians in asian neighborhoods? Come on, Nick. Use that intellectual noodle. America, like the world, is just not a melting pot, and no tantrum you throw, no matter how severe, will ever change that. Oil and water, buddy. And it all plays back to the original thrust of our little discussion. Worse than that, look at you pointing the finger. Freakin' republicans!!! Really? So because somebody has a different view than you... what? They suck? Conservatives didn't get you in to any war, my forgetful friend. It was bi-partisan. Took both sides. The part you don't get, the part you will never get because you've made a conscious choice to view the world with secular eyes, is that orthodox Christians, the real bible believers, typically don't go looking for fights. Really, they don't care, because the goal of this life is to make the cut for what's next. Seriously, you think you can make some heaven on earth? I say impossible. Not because of you, but because people in this world will kill you simply for what you have. People in this world will kill you simply for being an American. People will kill you simply because you're white, because you wear a badge, because their culture has taught them to hate you. People will kill you because you wear a certain kind of tennis shoe, because your hat is red, because there's money in the till of your business, because they not only want the crack, but to keep the money too. Partner, Vietnam was nothing. Let me take you to a couple of neighborhoods here where I work. Let me push you out the door and see how many blocks you get. Welcome to America. You scream bloody murder about how we're killing our boys overseas. So tell me, without looking it up... how many police officers died in the line of duty last year? How many firefighters? Where's your righteous indignation for them? What ever happened to that pathetic liberal montra; think globally, act locally? I've got an idea, how about you don't just say it, but you do it. Or is the whole purpose simply just to make yourself feel holier, smugger, better? Well? Do you? Good Lord, the only place for a respectable liberal to find the answers to Bush's hell is in the mirror, am I right? If only the other 6 billion of us could just be like you. There's your heaven. You could turn your back on a bully on the play ground and not get beat up. You could turn your back on the liquor store robber and he'd simply walk out the door without shooting. Low rider Impala approaching with a couple of AK's hanging out the window? Turn your back and they cruise right on by. Idealism. So what's your plan? Tell them they're victims and admit everything is your fault? Man, have I got stories for you.

Anyway, you're getting boring. I don't know where you live or what you do for a living, but I've gotta tell you that my whole life seems to be in direct contrast to the ivory tower of idealism from whence you seem sit in judgement. We don't need God; we've got you. I can tell you first hand about those who won't fight, about how the strong rule both day and night, while the pacifists sit in their homes, waiting to hit the deck at the first "pop" they hear. Maybe they're idealists too, or maybe they understand all too well that there are only two ways to respond when threatened; either purging the threat through strength, or going full on fetal and hoping they only reach for your wallet. You know somebody who got killed? Big deal! Try being the first one to treat them.

So how's the view from up there, anyway?

GaryD - Did you actually go to the site? There are literally hundreds of quotations. I don't see how you could call that cherry-picking. There is a generous amount of information there. Do you mean that the quotations are inaccurate? Because I will admit that I haven't verified them. He cites his sources though and they are all legitimate.

We could have a long conversation about exactly what influenced Hitler. I certainly see the pagan and pan-German elements that you refer to but the reality is that he talked publicly about his Christian faith at length. He just didn't like the Catholic Church. He loved Martin Luther and the Nazis went so far as to create their own protestant sect. They called it Positive Christianity. It basically took whatever parts of the bible it found convenient and discarded the rest (just like every other protestant sect does). Like it or not, Christianity played a leading (if not exclusive) role in the development of National Socialism.

Compare that to GWB. I see his insistence on the use of torture as decidedly "unchristian." he too has spoken publicly about his faith at length and I have no doubt that HE believes that he is a Christian. Then I look back on the "unchristian" behavior of AH. Do I really know what motivated Hitler? No. I wasn't there and I didn't know him. But through their public words, I think that both of them BELIEVED that they were Christian. Actions however, speak louder than words. I will refer you to Matthew 7:16: "By their fruits, ye shall know them."

GaryD - Did you actually go to the site? There are literally hundreds of quotations. I don't see how you could call that cherry-picking. There is a generous amount of information there. Do you mean that the quotations are inaccurate? Because I will admit that I haven't verified them. He cites his sources though and they are all legitimate.

We could have a long conversation about exactly what influenced Hitler. I certainly see the pagan and pan-German elements that you refer to but the reality is that he talked publicly about his Christian faith at length. He just didn't like the Catholic Church. He loved Martin Luther and the Nazis went so far as to create their own protestant sect. They called it Positive Christianity. It basically took whatever parts of the bible it found convenient and discarded the rest (just like every other protestant sect does). Like it or not, Christianity played a leading (if not exclusive) role in the development of National Socialism.

Compare that to GWB. I see his insistence on the use of torture as decidedly "unchristian." he too has spoken publicly about his faith at length and I have no doubt that HE believes that he is a Christian. Then I look back on the "unchristian" behavior of AH. Do I really know what motivated Hitler? No. I wasn't there and I didn't know him. But through their public words, I think that both of them BELIEVED that they were Christian. Actions however, speak louder than words. I will refer you to Matthew 7:16: "By their fruits, ye shall know them."

Like it or not, Christianity played a leading (if not exclusive) role in the development of National Socialism.

Or, as I said before on Christian ideas of 'sin' and war:

"before I have to go raising moral objections, you'd expect the 'God-ordained' to at least get the politics and strategy right. Instead of starting with their fuzzy morals and calling it 'faith' when they randomly hope the gunfire works out."

This is what we're left with, ennit?

I mean, it seems that's really what it's about, isn't it? "talking-to-God" neocon moves that only profit certain friends of Bush and Cheney...

Went. And. Broke. Things.

Yeah, Saddam was bad, ...he was a US-sponsored puppet who, *surprise, surprise* got out of control... (see smiling pics of him with Rumsfeld)

But the Right in America was led down a garden path about a 'God-ordained' war which, in fact, *was a stupid move.* They had *no plan.*

There's no un-stupiding that.*

FUBAR.

They were warned. They flipped off the world and did it anyway.

What now.

It's very possible that the scenario this screwup has generated actually leaves no good options for our military presence there.

Sorry... Should have thought it through, but it's too late now. And it won't necessarily *help* to leave our boys there, ...unless you're determined to vindicated Bush's 'divinely-ordained,' lying-to-Congress-justified, and evangelically-supported *screwup.*

The situation exists.

If there's a reason for American troops to hang out there, someone better make a case for it.

"Preventive war was the invention of Hitler. I would not even listen seriously to anyone who spoke of such a thing."

--Dwight Eisenhower

"Preventive war is like committing suicide for fear of dying."

--Otto von Bismarck

"However, I'm a little curious about your inference "we need to get out of Iraq". Of course we need to do something that ends with us out of Iraq. But, please give us your thoughts on how we should go about our exit now that we've already caused the infrastructure and organization of Iraq to crumble. What responsibility do we have to held these people rebuild?"

I think we have to admit that that went out the window with 'The war will pay for itself.'

The question now is not, 'What does leaving mean in terms of vindicating Bush's 'God-guided crusade,' but...

Seriously. What good will staying do copared to leaving?

Pottery Barn.

We broke it. Now there's a question of all the 'King's horses' and all the 'King's Men.'

Whatever the right thing to do is, stubbornly exacerbating a screwup is not it.

Nick I've seen it before and been presented with it on dozens of occasions. It is one of the worst bits of cherry picking extant on the subject. Sorry but that is the truth.

I don't think it has anything to do with faith.

It began with, as you write, smugness and greed.

But then came the blood. If greed had then been satisfied the blood would soon be forgotten. But there is just blood.

Now you get fear of God. So how do you think? Just like President Bush stated: I know they think of me as a war monger, but I view myself as a peacemaker.

I don't think it has anything to do with faith.

It began with, as you write, smugness and greed.

But then came the blood. If greed had then been satisfied the blood would soon be forgotten. But there is just blood.

Now you get fear of God. So how do you think? Just like President Bush stated: I know they think of me as a war monger, but I view myself as a peacemaker.

GaryD - I don't think I ever said that the Crusades were the beginning of the "war with Islam." I was just pointing out a couple of the low points of Christian history.

As for my "overwhelmingly absurd" point about Hitler's faith, try this link:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm

It gives some examples of the religious rhetoric which filled his speeches. If his value system and actions don't look Christian to you, I think that proves my point. HE thought he was a Christian and that he was doing god's work. Just like GWB, David Koresh, the inquisitors, the crusaders, the KKK etc, etc, etc. Any idiot can claim that he is a Christian and find something in the bible to justify himself, but that doesn't make him "Christian."

It seems only fair to let our kids and grandkids decide whether or not the Iraq War has been worth it...since they'll be the ones paying for it.

R J - Am I angry? Yep. Illegal surveillance pisses me off. GWB having people tortured pisses me off. Invading a country that did nothing to us pisses me off. Watching people die (including my nephew's best friend) in the name of god pisses me off. You wonder why liberals are so angry? It's because we see the damage that zealots like you have caused throughout the ages and even up to the present day. It's because we see your idiotic mistakes (like going into Iraq) before they happen and are powerless to stop them because our elected representatives are either liars (Cheney/GWB) or cowards (every democrat in congress). It's because we see you trying to start World War III - a holy war between Christianity and Islam for world domination, when our (liberals I mean) goal is merely to try to get everyone to coexist peacefully. It's because people like you mock us for wanting to coexist peacefully with our global neighbors. It's because when we debate people like you, your argument always boils down to one "irrefutable" point: faith. Not logic, not experience, not reason, not intellect, but faith. And there is nothing more frustrating than having to give credence to someone when their entire argument is: Trust me, I know I am right. How can you argue with that? Yes, these things make me angry. So now I have to ask you, if watching people die for no good reason doesn't make you mad, then what does? Anything? Oh yes, liberals like me make you mad (or at least irritate you I suppose since apparently you are above anger). Compare those two value systems please. I am mad because a messianic half-wit has slaughtered thousands of people in my country's name. You are irritated at me because I am mad about it. Which is a more "Christian" attitude?

Now... Vietnam. Finally we get to an actual argument. First, going into Vietnam was just as stupid as going into Iraq and liberals were primarily responsible. I acknowledge that. But the decisions to go in and then to escalate were made primarily out of fear of being labeled "soft" on communism (i.e. pressure from the right). Think of LBJ saying, "I will not be the first American president to lose a war." Anti-communism, McCarthyism, LBJ's pride and domestic political considerations were the motivations for that war, NOT liberalism. Liberal politicians made the ultimate decisions, but in doing so, they were betraying liberalism, not fulfilling its tenets.

Second, the treatment of our troops (e.g. calling them baby-killers) when they returned was an abomination. Especially considering that such a large percentage were draftees. The respect that we show our troops now is much more in line with the sacrifices we ask of them. And I am thankful that I have never had to serve. I am thankful that people like my grandfathers had the balls to stand up to Hitler. I am thankful that I live in such a wonderful country. But going into Vietnam and Iraq has NOT made us safer. Just because our troops have served valiantly in the past does not mean that every war our presidents foist upon us is a good idea. Nor do our soldiers have a monopoly on patriotism or common sense. If there actually were another Hitler, I would be the first man to sign up. But there isn't. Ho Chi Minh wasn't Hitler and nor was Saddam. I am not mad at the troops. I am mad at the idiot politicians who so carelessly throw away their lives for ideology or because they are unwilling to admit a mistake.

Third, if you believe that the North Vietnamese were about to sue for peace, then I have a bridge to sell you. Was Tet a military failure for them? Yes, unquestionably. Was it a POLITICAL success? Yes. Losing 50,000 men for them was a drop in the bucket. They had 200,000 men per year becoming eligible for military service. The idea that they were hard up for men is ludicrous. But it was after Tet that Cronkite declared the war unwinnable. Public opinion in the United States was effected. And that is fundamentally what you (or our president for that matter) don't seem to understand - Vietnam was NOT a military conflict. It was a political one. And yes, there is a difference. That is why a nation that could never stand up to us in a head-to-head confrontation kicked our asses out of their country. The military aspect is incidental. They beat us politically. Iraq is the same way. We lost the instant American boots hit the ground. It is just a matter of time now. Don't give me any "surge" crap either. I recently read an article where a member of Syrian intelligence said (more or less) "This will be known as the era of deception." They have toned things down because they know that we do not have the political will for a long term struggle. And I do not think that this "pessimism" is unpatriotic. I have examined the situation rationally and have found our strategy flawed (although non-existent might be closer to the mark).

So I will make you a deal...I will "take a breath, grab a nice hot shower, put on some sweats, park myself in my favorite chair and thank god," if (and ONLY if) you and every other evangelical Christian in this country decides to leave governance to those of us willing to apply rationality and pragmatism (and ONLY rationality and pragmatism) to our nation's problems. Until that time, I will fight you with every fiber of my being. And I will do so enraged and with contempt for you and your "god."

Sorry the Crusades were not the beginning of the war with Islam even then. If you knew anything about the period in question during the time frame from 650 AD to 1000AD you'd know that.

The Notion that the Nazis were Christian is so overwhelmingly absurd as to scarce need rebuttal. Any one who has studied the Nazis and has more than the most cursory knowledge of Hitler's 'Mein Kampf' should know that Hitler was at Best a Pseudo Pagan with an abiding loathing for Christianity which he considered as a sap on the Character and willingness of his G