All Comments (28)

Jim: The murder by gasing, shooting, hanging etc.of 6 million or more Jews, Gypsies, and disabled individuals by a German madman furnishes me all the evidence I will ever need for the existence of Satan. The birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as described in the Gospel of John furnishes me all the evidence I need for the existence of God. As the mathematicians say" QED.

It's hard to believe that so many people take the fairy tales and myths of religious folklore so literally -- and so seriously.
Why should we elect anyone as president who lacks the intelligence and imagination to understand these belief systems for the chimeras that they are?
If anyone has any real evidence that god or satan or similar creatures actually exist, please post that evidence here.

I agree with Nebuchadnezzar. Let's keep religion out of the Presidential discussion. Remember the "faith-based initiative"? It was revealed as phony; a grand manipulation. To use one's personal religion as a media selling point is not convincing. Why not campaign on the issues of reason, fairness, justice; the values this country was founded on.

An active membership in a Christian religion, or any religion, not being a Constitutional requirement for an American citizen to become President, should be removed as a topic in all of the Presidential primary campaign debates. Religions expel members for heresy, not for crimes against humanity. Otherwise the Methodist Church would have long ago excommunicated George Bush, Jr., for his Iraq War. Romney, however, first raised his religious background as qualifying him for the Presidency. He shouldn't now complain when other candidates question his religious beliefs.

The Rev. Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite should be congratulated and frankly deeply admired. In this age of myriads of amateurs, where theological certainty comes from inspiration and not from scholarship, she is, indeed a rare find. As head of a theological seminary hopefully she will encourage among her students and faculty thinking and scholarship not bluster.

I realize that it is difficult to accept that there is no one but ourselves to blame for the difference between the responsibility demanded from us by biblical ethics and morality and reality.

The road to salvation is a hard and arduous one, a 24/7 occupation from the day we have reason to the one of our last breath. There is no one - certainly no Satan - forcing us off the righteous path or having us give in to base instincts. To blame an external and uncontrolable force is a rather slim excuse for doing what we know is patently wrong and unnacceptable.

I hope that there will be more Rev. Thistlethwaites in this world and soon.

I should add:

I don't think Huckabee's socio-economic policies would be like Bush. I would give Huckabee an A in this area, where i give Bush an F.

My concern is Huckabee's foreign policy would be much like Bush's, same with the anti-science stance.

Meaning: Huckabee has proven to have a closed mind when looking at ALL the facts. The rapist case illustrates this; Huckabee showed no inclination to check out the facts of the DuMond rapist case.

It was the same when Huckabee was caught completely unaware of the National Intelligence Agency's assessment of Iran's nuclear program.

Huckabee is a very nice man who was very capable as a governor. But he should not be trusted with being elected as the nation's highest elected official. We don' need another ideologue.

Yes, I think Huckabee's reference to the Devil to attack a fellow Republican opponent is another clue to what a Huckabee presidency would be like --it rings of Bush's "axis of Evil" rhetoric where he see no shades of gray -- the world is seen as a battleground between cosmic good and evil.

Now I liked Huckabee at first. I share many of Huckabee's socio-economic views. Unlike the current occupant of the White House – Huckabee ACTUALLY "walked the talk" on helping the poor while governor of Arkansas. He was unpopular at times for sticking to his convictions. I give Huckabee an A in this area.

It is Huckabee’s motive for releasing a rapist and his later alibi for it, that I think llustrates why he should not be elected as President of the nation.

FACTS.

(1) A (now confirmed rapist) named Wayne DuMond was convicted and sent to prison for raping the 17 year old relative of Bill Clinton.

(2) The right wing in Arkansas rushed to DuMond's defense, arguing the raped woman wasn't credible (afterall, wasn’t she a relative of Clinton’s??)

* Before his trial, DuMond was attacked and castrated by unknown assailants, (although some claimed he did it to himself to provide sympathy before the jury. Seems a little extreme to think he did it to himself...)

*DuMond was convicted at his trial, despite the castration, and given a long prison term.

* a New York Post columnist, took up the case as a cause célèbre , calling DuMond’s conviction "a travesty of justice."....

* A right wing book entitled UNEQUAL JUSTICE, WAYNE DUMOND, BILL CLINTON AND THE POLITICS OF RAPE IN ARKANSAS included many distortions and outright lies—saying for example that DNA evidence exonerated DuMond. (Fact: there wasn’t even a DNA test conducted).

http://www.amazon.com/Unequal-Justice-Clinton-Politics-Arkansas/dp/0879758414

(3) Huckabee owed his election to the right wing faction in Arkansas and a good friend of his was a fundamentalist Baptist preacher who frequently proclaimed DuMond’s innocence on his radio sermons.

(4) When Huckabee became governor in 1996, he quickly expressed doubts about DuMond's guilt and said he was considering commuting his sentence to time served. After the victim and her supporters protested, Huckabee backed down and said he decided against commutation. Still, Huckabee later wrote a letter to DuMond saying "my desire is that you be released from prison."

(5) Huckabee ignored the fact other victims surfaced who fingered Dumond as guilty of rape. When Huckabee met with DuMond's victims, they noticed Huckagee was not educated on the real facts of the case – and instead insisted the right wing propaganda was true-- including how the DNA exonerated DuMond, (He didn't believe the victims when they told him otherwise, and apparantly did not care to check it out.)

(6) Huckabee made an appearance before the Pardon Board afterwards:

-- Before Huckabee’s appearance, the parole board opposed 4:1 against freeing DuMond.
-- After Huckabee’s appearance, the parole board voted 4:1 for freeing Dumond.
-- Huckabee now says he does not remember urging the Parole Board to free Dumond.
-- Parole Board members who switched their vote say they remember Huckabee telling them in strong terms that he believed DuMmond should be released and they wanted to stay on his good side to be reappointed to a high paying position. (This was the only visit Huckabee made to the parole board so they say the governor's visit made an impression on them.)

(8)DuMond was pardoned shortly afterwards.

(9) DuMond raped and murdered a young pregnant woman and this time there was no question of guilt.

(10) Huckagee expressed genuine sorrow over the course of events... although insisting he wasn't really responsible for the rapist's release, not at all. (Can you guess who Huckabee says IS responsible? See further below for the incredible answer.)

The problems I have with this is what it reveals about Huckabee:

(1) What scares me is: Huckabee did not ever research the rape case, but relied instead on his right wing sources. (déjà vu: current occupant of the White House -- do we need a clone who doesn't like to research what the other side says?)

(2) What infuriates me: Not only does Huckabee deny he urged the Pardon Board to parole Dumond, today Huckabee insists he wasn’t responsible for the Parole Board’s decision.

**You see-- many of the Parole Board's members had been appointed by… did you guess it?…. Bill Clinton.**

See all this was Bill Clinton’s fault.

Sorry Huckabee. If you had been honest, I think I would still like you. Now I think you are a dangerous ideologue – political as well as religious (a horrific and deadly combination) –

Do we need another dangerous right wing ideologue in the White House?

I say a resounding no!!

Satanizing your opponent or a group of people, like Mexicans for example, is a tried and true way of manipulating the mindless masses. Ask Hitler if it worked for him. Ask Cheney if it helped him defeat Kerry. The Mormon Church used to put a Protestant Pastor at Satan's side in their temple rites to demonize religious alternatives for faithful Mormons. Satanize gays. Satanize Muslims. Satanize anything and everything that is in your way and joe-six-pack will buy it. Let's hope America wakes up this time and realizes the Rovian tactics of Huckabee to Satanize Romney and the Mexicans.

This is a very corrupt individual who is using his Baptist bully pulpit to manipulate voters.

Chris Everret

"It's scientifically impossible for the bumblebee to fly, But the bumblebee, being unaware of these scientific facts, flies anyway."

This statement concerns me far more than any quarrel about devils and messiahs. What Huckabee is saying is that reason is a handicap, and that if only we could do away with science and reason, all things would be possible."

That is exactly the point. The pandering to unreason is the real danger. We are already experiencing this to a large extend with this administration: invoking god to start war, bending scientific facts, Orwellian language.

Unreason is the problem, replacing reason with dogma, gut feeling and unverifiable statements.

I hope Huckabee wins the presidency. He is just as much a citizen as anybody else.

In Mormon theology Satan is described as the brother of Satan. I do not know what everyone is uptight about. Perhaps people should stop being so Theophobic. I do not think Huckabee should have apologized to satisfy all the PC police.

Clarification: Mormons do not believe in the Trinity as defined by the Westminister Shorter Catechism which states that: "there are three persons in the Godhead; the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost;and these three are one God, the same in substance, equal in power and glory". Orthodox Christianity subscibes to this clear teaching of Scripture and this teaching is central to Christianity. By denying this central teaching Mormons are considered a Christian cult.

"If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago, 1973

I'm not so concerned with Huckabee using religion against his political opponents. It's just another tool in the toolbox of sleaze that characterizes most politicians. Who cares how many devils can dance on the head of a pin.

What concerns me more is that the world inside Huckabee's mind, and presumably Romney's mind as well, is populated by devils, angels, messiahs, and gods in the first place. These fictions are the agencies they see when their eyes look out onto the world. The middle east? Devil, devil, devil, devil, messiah, god. North Korea? Devil, devil, devil. Iran? DEVIL! What good can come from someone living inside that kind of delusion? More importantly, what EVIL can come from such a man?

Huckabee made the following statement yesterday:

"It's scientifically impossible for the bumblebee to fly, But the bumblebee, being unaware of these scientific facts, flies anyway."

This statement concerns me far more than any quarrel about devils and messiahs. What Huckabee is saying is that reason is a handicap, and that if only we could do away with science and reason, all things would be possible.

Huckabee is PROFOUNDLY ignorant. In a tinderbox world of religious tension a man like Huckabee is GUARANTEED to be a disaster of biblical proportions.

Crewsin,
I wanted to clarify a misconception you have, and also thank Rev. Thistlethwaite for her insights.

Mormons believe Jesus Christ was the Creator of this earth, as the right hand emissary of the Father during the pre-mortal life, with the same omniscience and omnibenevolence as the Father. The plan of salvation was planned by the Father and His First-born Son, during a council of the Gods in the pre-mortal life--thus both would be co-equal because they both had all the power in the universe.

Christ condescended to come to earth because of the need for the atonement and His resurrection after His death, to enable grace to take effect in our world. He was fully God, and wouldn't have had to do this wonderful thing for us, but He offered to do it. Satan fought the Father and Christ's plan, and still does, as a fallen angel who also lived in the presence of the Father in pre-mortal life, as did we. As we follow the light of Christ in our lives and receive His grace, we can overcome the temptations of this world, metaphorically and literally. Only Christ can do this for us--we can't do it for ourselves. Our gratitude to Him is similar, I would imagine, to yours for the Trinity, and we feel to sing "Amazing Grace" just as you do.

Satan is Jung's "Shadow", the dark side of every human personality.

Satan is also called Lucifer, the bearer and bringer of light.

There's a paradoxical truth here: only by confronting the darkness within ourselves can we become enlightened.

Thus Satan is best dealt with by using psychological methods and insight, not religious.

she presents satan as a metaphor because she thinks JESUS is a metaphore.

You decry Mormons as not Christian because they dare believe that Jesus is the Son of God? How odd. By the way, you have LDS doctrine wrong -- www.lds.org or www.mormon.org has the actual beliefs of the church.

Political silly season may be upon us, but adding onto it the absurdities of strawmen religious argumentation has made this a campaign season to remember.

Susan: Governor Huckabee is technically correct in his interpretation of Mormon doctrine. Jesus Christ and Satan are both spirit sons of God in Mormon theology. Thus Christ is not co-equal and co-eternal with God as Christian theology requires. For this reason (among many others) the Mormon church is considered a cult by Orthodox Christianity. All of that being said, Mr Romney should not be judged for political office because of the doctrine of the church he attends--but the reality is that he will be so judged. By the way Satan is pure evil in Christian theology, sometimes parades as an angel of light and is the god of this world (2 Corinthians 4:4)

Apparently it's also a "sin" to disagree with Mr. Ferguson's literalist orthodoxy. No major parables in the Bible, sir; they’re all in red print and never run for more than a few verses.

More to the point, I find it unfortunate that our politicians (mostly the Republican ones - but that's another argument) try to use religion to drum up support in a country with a constitution that explicitly forbids religious tests for holding office. Such behavior is quite literally un-American.

Oh.God. Here we go.
Having Mike Huckabee and the Baptist Evangelical religion in the White House would make George Bush's antics look tame.
I've had two opportunities to work with men like Huckabee. Charming, well dressed, helpful, with personalities that played favorites, found ways to get around rules, used religion as an excuse for getting around rules. Just like Huck. The second man was overtly anti-minority, but said they were "God's chilren, too". Just don't go near them. Separation of Church and State, folks.

Oh.God. Here we go.
Having Mike Huckabee and the Baptist Evangelical religion in the White House would make George Bush's antics look tame.
I've had two opportunities to work with men like Huckabee. Charming, well dressed, helpful, with personalities that played favorites, found ways to get around rules, used religion as an excuse for getting around rules. Just like Huck. The second man was overtly anti-minority, but said they were "God's chilren, too". Just don't go near them. Separation of Church and State, folks.

Oh.God. Here we go.
Having Mike Huckabee and the Baptist Evangelical religion in the White House would make George Bush's antics look tame.
I've had two opportunities to work with men like Huckabee. Charming, well dressed, helpful, with personalities that played favorites, found ways to get around rules, used religion as an excuse for getting around rules. Just like Huck. The second man was overtly anti-minority, but said they were "God's chilren, too". Just don't go near them. Separation of Church and State, folks.

Satan is not a metaphor but a spiritual entity

We all should 'go and sin no more' yourself included

by posing it as a question, Huckabee could plausibly apologize, while still sending the message to evangelicals that Romney's claim to be a christian is bogus, which was clearly the intent

Satan is a actual spiritual entity, a fallen angel. He is a person with a personality. He ais pure evil. Jesus identifies him as 'the father of lies' and 'a murderer from the beginning'.

One should search the web thoroughly for answers to Governor Huckabee's question. I did so and found the answers surprising.

I can agree with the Rev. Thistlethwaite that referring to one's enemies as the devil is not good politics or foreign policy. However, her perspective minimizes Satan as a real, spiritual entity. She portrays "the devil" not in literal terms, but as a human contruct or symbol of the evil with which we all wrestle. While it might be poor judgment for our nation's leaders to repeatedly make reference to the devil, we must not condemn the right of all people (including politicians) to believe as they will about spiritual matters.

Rev'd Thistlethwaite,

I admire your courage, in this article and others. Keep it up.

Christian though I am, I'm not sure how I feel about Old Nick. The best image of him, I suppose, is Lucifer, Milton's fallen angel. Which fits with your identification of him as someone close, who betrays, and offers power. Good connection there with current politics worldwide. And throughout history as well.

Arminius