Can big social problems be solved by “well-intentioned religious believers”? Not without telling the truth about homophobia, about greed or about selfishness.
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All Comments (42)
Crewsin,
Why not tell me when there were no wars and mayhem?
In fact most likely there were more during the crusades and the inquisitions, and in case you did not know, they were Church run and backed.
I was told once that the reason for the black plague was because while people were being gathered up and accused of Witchcraft, at the same time those who were gay was gathered up...hence the name FAG (a short stick used to start a fire), also because of the connection between Witches and cats, the cats were killed...without cats, more rats..more rats, more fleas..more fleas...Black death. Was it the Witches and the cats that got their vengence, or the Churches earning their own karma?
You do know that the books of the bible were named not for their authors, (they are not really known) but by the early church fathers who decided what books to use and which direction they wanted the gospels to go? Like John the son of Zebedee, had already died long before the Gospel of John came to be written. He was most likely not a witness of jesus but got it second hand.
You tell me to read your sacred book as if I should believe it because you say I should. I am not Christian...I have my own beliefs and sense of what is right or wrong, and my own sacred texts.
You talk of the 20th century not being a time of peace and harmony...yet Christianity has been gaining more and more power. All the killing has been done over religion. Whose one god is the biggest and strongest? Whose God is the Real Real One? Who has the real words of the Big Fella? What pen does God prefer? Gel or Fountain? But then God did not leave any messages..not even notes.
Why is it I am supposed to honor your beliefs and read your sacred texts, but I don't even expect you to read mine..after all it is mine and you have your own.
terra
December 16, 2007 11:38 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 16, 2007 23:38
Never ever again, P A T R I C K, et al. say,
"HE" or HIM! nor ever say nor refer to the Holy No-MON Lord/ECLAT+i as some kinda of Supeernatural , a 'HER" or SHE! Never! Otherwise you are Pre-Apocalyptarian! And thus, Patrick (a Potential Good Humate kind) can never be a APOCALYPTARIAN!
So, best to say, "' IT' smoke to Mr. Moses, IT spoke to Mr. Jesus, IT spoke to Mr. Muhammad, IT spoke to Confucus, IT spoke to Mr. Buddha, IT spoke to Mr. Gauatama, IT spoke to Mr. Vyasa, IT spoke to Mr. Mazda et......
So O.U.R. real & Genuine Holy Cosmic LORD Almighty.. )A zero jealous & thus a Fearless ONE, not like your man made Deity) aka G-D & by many names!
Note: Patric, et al; Did you know that you have a POLY-THEISTIC Religion?! You do not have a genuine TRUE (opposite of MYTH) MONO-THEO G-d SYSTEM(s)!
If you do not believe "i", then ask YE POPE or BISHIP or CARDINAL or Rabbi or Priestes et al! Ya Ya!
So the TRANSFINITE LORD ECLAT + "i" = PHOTON(s), aka LIFE is neither a 'HE" nor a 'SHE' O.K.? Capish da Gabozsh?!
Eeeeee Haaaaaaa!
December 16, 2007 8:31 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 16, 2007 20:31
No amount of nay saying the facts will nullify them. All those who refuse the mercy of Yahweh for their violations of His Law (like lying, stealing, sexual deviance) in a sincere repentance and submission to His sovereignty here will have to answer for themselves before His Son Y'Shua [Jesus] when they die.
Its appointed to every one to die and then be judged.
Mock His judgment now if you choose but know He has done all He can to save you.
Susan's friend made a God to suit his own homosexual sin (if what she says is true) and he is now paying for it, unless he repented: Only God (Yahweh is His name) knows.
Mock Yahweh's Law here if you want but you make an eternally fatal mistake to do so. God has given the Law to show you who you are. Y'Shua came to save sinners not those who think they are good. NO amount of agreeing with each other will change what God has established.
Psalm 2
Why do the nations rage,
and the peoples plot a vain thing?
The kings of the earth take a stand,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against Yahweh, and against his Anointed, saying,
“Let’s break their bonds apart,
and cast their cords from us.”
He who sits in the heavens will laugh.
The Lord will have them in derision.
Then he will speak to them in his anger,
and terrify them in his wrath:
“Yet I have set my King on my holy hill of Zion.”
I will tell of the decree.
Yahweh said to me, “You are my son.
Today I have become your father.
Ask of me, and I will give the nations for your inheritance,
the uttermost parts of the earth for your possession.
You shall break them with a rod of iron.
You shall dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”
Now therefore be wise, you kings.
Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
Serve Yahweh with fear,
and rejoice with trembling.
Give sincere homage to the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
for his wrath will soon be kindled.
Blessed are all those who take refuge in him.
A Christian does not continue to engage in sin. He repents of it, forsakes his old ways utterly, in his trust of Jesus to save Him from his deserved punishment of Hell.
You can be rescued if you will but repent and trust the Only Savior Jesus.
There is no other, will be no other, way offered.
Ever.
December 16, 2007 7:12 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 16, 2007 19:12
REMEMBER: Voting for HilLlary Clinton, is same as re-Voting for Prez B. Clinton.
This is 'illegal' , aka PROXY President by Nepotism! Presidential 'Term-Limits' are being violated. Do not be Stupid! The Communist have infiltrated Sweet Sweet U.S.A's Government of 'THE PEOPLE!
So, Please do not vote for 'Hillary & Bill Clinton! Thank You!
IMPORTANT , Sweet Sweet America:
A Russian Communist Conspiracy in Sweet Sweet America "i" now EXPOSED!
HARK Humates of America!:
BEWARE:
Senator 'Chuck Schumer' (of N.Y., a 'Senior Senator) is been "BRIBED' by the RUSSIAN-INTERNATIONAL-MAFIA! Example:
He, Mr. Schumer et al, via "L*U*K OIL" got money from them, (via ex-'GETTY gas station(s) moguls, now turned "Russian Mafia Government Front" as Owners in America. Please call FBI & CIA!] and of Which "Chucky-Boy' Senator SCHUMER promoted , knowingly in such a great 'COMMY' Conspiracy!
Forgive me, but it is true!!!!!!!!!!
ATT: You get pais per "CLICK' , then pay 'US' [free Spirited Bloggers] for Stealing OUR ideas/Writings!
Note: You must Post [ALL & not SENSORED] or repost {hours of WORK (free, but NO more!) thinking & typing) what You-Failed to post. There was No Cuseses. Everything was acoording to 'YOUR' rules, not mine.
Yes, 34,000 people a year in AMERICA , the sweet, comit Suicide. So Better they Volunteer for Army & die Protecting the great REPUBLIC & FEDERATION of "Space-Ship" Planet EARTH against SuperStupidStitious Pre-Apocalyptic BIBLIO, QURANO, GEETAO, MANIACS.
WE "i"nellegent "i"ntellectuals "i"ndividuals. aka, HUMATES (not Humans, as JOKTANIAN, not PELEGIAN,Sporades (Wom) & Mavorites (Man)) Live on space-Ship Earth! aka S.S. GAIA, S.S. GEOID, S.S. TELLUSng Something instead!!
So please post ALL that you have sieved/selected & sensored! Not jus "i", but many many Bloggers!
NOTICE: "NEWS-WEEK" & WASHINGTON POST & CO, et al,;
IT is about your ten 'FACE's. not about our one honest Face's!
You will be sued , in 'Class' like, in Federal Court very very Soon!
not just "i" , but to many you say,
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VOTE:
'NO' to News-Papers Company's owning {your Kids minds future & yours too] against them owning T.V Stations & Satellite Station!
'NO' to News Paper Company's! No Broad Casting! No!
Take Back your almost Hijacked Nation! Take back Sweet sweet America! Now!
< ?: +)/ Ya Ya!
December 16, 2007 9:15 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 16, 2007 09:15
Well, that's just silly. Obviously, Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite feels morally superior to those who condemn homosexuality because she accepts it. She is therefore morally superior to Moses, who wrote the Pentateuch, and Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles, both of whom condemned the practice. Furthermore, Jesus supported the laws of Moses and Paul was led by the Spirit of Christ.
As soon as you get God to rewrite the Bible, I'll change my views on the matter. I do agree, however, that Christians should do gays no harm, just as they are commanded to do harm to no one.
Incidentally, the word "Reverend" appears only one time in the entire Bible, and refers to God Himself: "Holy and Reverend is His name." No one who has seen God or knows God would have the effrontery and audacity to call his or her self by the attribute of God. There is none holy or reverend but God and the Son of God.
Attending theological cemeteries and preaching in mausoleums sounds the death knell to a perfect understanding of the Word of God.
December 15, 2007 11:56 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 15, 2007 23:56
Good bye Newsweek, Washington Post, Editor & POST et al:
Good bye every body!
Att: Washington Post, Newsweek & Company; You Suck!
Warning: Do not reproduce, deseminate, plagerize, copy, for profit or gain 'ANY of my "POST" on any onf these 'Onfaith' or "onreligion" bloggs, since MARCH.19/20th of 2007 until NOW! Dec.15th.2007!
Vote: ECLATi-ON Party for GRIDARIAN DEMOCRACY & TRANSFINITE CIVILIZATION 2012 & beyond! Bye Yo ALL!
< ?: +) / Ya Ya!
December 15, 2007 11:01 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 15, 2007 23:01
Susan,
My condolences to you for your loss. My condolences to all of us.
"[N]ever send to know for whom the bell tols..."
December 14, 2007 8:11 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 14, 2007 20:11
I don't read On Faith too often anymore, since the discussions have become somewhat predictable (the cutting and pasting got old REALLY fast). I do know I can count on Thistlethwaite to be thought provoking.
A couple things puzzle me about those Christians who drone on about same-sex attraction being against G-d's law.
First - The Bible mentions many acts as being forbidden and contrary to nature, including eating shellfish and lending money at interest. Why no passengers on that bandwagon?
Second - Do we really want what any of us do in the bedroom to be a matter of public interest? I find the obsession with other people's sexual behavior to be somewhat, well for a lack of better way to say it, pornographic.
December 14, 2007 3:15 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 14, 2007 03:15
Norrie,
Thank you for the post from your friend. It says a lot about reconciliation that is possible if we look for it. And it reminds us to look.
December 13, 2007 9:46 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 13, 2007 21:46
Hi Pagan Place.
How ya doin'? Looks like the blogs are working their magic again. Unfortunate, sometimes.
The thing is, The Rev. is right about the problems faced by her friend having been harder even than they had to be.
Still, another Pagan said:
"Claim your right to say or do anything that accords with nature, and pay no attention to the chatter of your critics. If it is good to say or do something, the it is even better to be criticized for having said or done it. Others have their own consciences to guide them and will follow their own lights. Don't be gazing after them, but keep your eyes on straight path of ahead of you, the path of your own nature and the nature of the universe. The path of both is the same."
Marcus Aurelius
Meditations
Book V
Try to be at peace, if you can, in a world with too much wrong in it.
Maybe I can think of nothing better to offer than that.
December 13, 2007 9:41 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 13, 2007 21:41
As for the rest of you.
You're so scared.
Stop it.
Just.
Stop.
Look.
Just look.
This is way too cool to be running scared about.
Just.
Look.
Breathe.
Gods, would you *look at it already?*
Just look.
December 13, 2007 6:18 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 13, 2007 06:18
Here's the song:
"I see trees of green,
Red roses too
I see them bloom,
For me and you
And I think to myself,
What a wonderful world
I see skies of blue
And clouds of white
Bright blessed days,
The dark sacred nights
And I think to myself,
What a wonderful world...
The colors of the rainbow
So pretty in the sky
Are also in the places
Of people walking by
People passing by
Saying 'How do you do'
Each person saying 'I love you'
I hear babies crying
I watch them grow
They'll learn much more
Than we'll ever know
And I think to myself...
What a wonderful world."
Louis Armstrong can do that song, or the Ramones.
But in consolation of your grief, Reverend.
From me to you, blessed be, and thanks. :)
December 13, 2007 6:07 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 13, 2007 06:07
Aww, Rev. Thistlethwaite, I get so angry that I do suck, sometimes.
"Today I need to grieve."
I will do my best to hold space for you to grieve.
I will sing a song for your friend... have done.
I've lost a number of friends. None so conveniently as some would say.
I will sing another song.
December 13, 2007 5:51 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 13, 2007 05:51
Hint: Vicente Fox is Dubya's buddy.
But they do make the working girls kneel before Christian images down there. All part of the game.
If you don't like it, *you do something,* instead of spending your effort *attacking queer Americans like me, sport.*
Spend half the effort *looking at that* as you do crying 'Non-Christian oppression!' when someone likes Harry Potter or doesn't get told they'll lose their Wal-Mart job for not saying Christ, *then* complain about human trafficking.
F'n *do* something!
I can't open my mouth without the likes of you disputing my rights as an American *to* speak.*
*pointpoint*
Look at it, Chiristian! Dammit!
December 13, 2007 3:44 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 13, 2007 03:44
Seriously. If you haven't been in one of those situations where you're trying to do the right thing, and suddenly there's a little dialogue in the back of your head, "Oh. My. Ever-Lovin Goddess. I just pissed off the Russian Mob, Din't I?" "Yep, I'm afraid that's just what I've done."
I wouldn't talk.
Is there something complicated about this stuff, Christian?
December 13, 2007 2:59 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 13, 2007 02:59
By the way, ...if you think 'Evangelicals are the only ones who care about human trafficking,' ...try not attacking all the Pagans who happen to think that's about the worst thing ever.
Never mind disenfranchising the gays who might end up in bad situations cause their American rights are marginalized by those with money, power, and Christian sanctity.
Never mind trying to make the worst concern of trafficked people being caught as an 'illegal immigrant' if their masters get caught, cause pious people scream for the blood of illegal immigrants.
Gods.
If the Religious Right has a problem with human trafficking and slavery, ....Go to town, already.
Go house. Is someone stopping you?
December 13, 2007 2:54 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 13, 2007 02:54
"Of all religious groups, only the Evangelicals tell the truth about the immense human traffic in the world. Lots of the AIDs problem is inflicted upon these luckless slaves."
They are also made to pray before Christian images between rapes by people who are connected in ways you don't probably want to hear about.
If you're saying Christians are ready to do something about this, having been glorying in your power all this time, I tell you, ..Go to it. This Pagan will back your play as she can.
Gods know I've walked into some ugly situations with no such might behind me.
But, this 'Christian Nation' ....ain't done much, has it?
December 13, 2007 2:49 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 13, 2007 02:49
Crewsin, (Why are you named 'Cruisin,' anyway, you homophobe?)
" crewsin:
Susan: So many liberals confuse comdeming the sin with hating the sinner."
Swear to the Gods, if *you* get unconfused on that, no one will care what you condemn.
Thought that wasn't for anyone but your God in your belief system, anyway.
December 13, 2007 2:43 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 13, 2007 02:43
"Can big social problems be solved by “well-intentioned religious believers”? Not without telling the truth about homophobia, about greed or about selfishness."
Susan,
Of all religious groups, only the Evangelicals tell the truth about the immense human traffic in the world. Lots of the AIDs problem is inflicted upon these luckless slaves.
Like you am a main line protestant, but the evangelical radio station I check in on from time to time is the only one talking about this problem. So I just can't see them as uniformly evil people, the way you seem to.
Care to comment on that? If not, why not?
December 12, 2007 11:15 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 12, 2007 23:15
"I realize it's a pretty big stretch to expect your mind to be open to correction but just maybe my response to you will help clear the false concepts long enough to help you to comprehend a basic fact about your friend (note I did not say "opinion" but said "fact"):"
Mr. Burwell,
I realize it's a pretty big stretch to expect your mind to be open to correction but just maybe my response to you will help clear the false concepts long enough to help you to comprehend a basic opinion about [Sally's] friend (note I did not say "fact" but said "opinion"):
The problem with all you true believers is that you have mistaken your religious opinions for facts. You certainly have a right to your opinions (religious and otherwise) but believing your own opinions doesn't make them facts. They are still just your opinions.
December 12, 2007 5:27 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 12, 2007 17:27
"He would tell me I should encourage those 'well-intentioned' evangelicals to recognize the way theologies that are not fully inclusive of gay folks actually help spread the disease and ruin lives."
Such comments stem from a clear misunderstanding of what "evangelicals" have in mind for the lost.
I realize it's a pretty big stretch to expect your mind to be open to correction but just maybe my response to you will help clear the false concepts long enough to help you to comprehend a basic fact about your friend (note I did not say "opinion" but said "fact"): homosexuality is a violation of the Law of God. Such judgment of the actions of your friend is not my opinion but a stated rule and law in scripture. Uncorrupted creation itself shows his actions were a perversion of what is natural as well.
These are indisputable facts. These are no more opinion than it is to say whether the sun is hot or that 2 plus 2 equals 4.
If your friend did not repent of his sin, the violation of God's Law, then he is judged guilty, as is clearly understood in the Bible. And the guilty, having rejected the mercy of Jesus in their refusal to repent, must be punished.
none of these are the opinion of evangelicals. These are the facts.
It is the desire of every Christian to see souls saved from Hell, which we ALL deserve (including you, including me).
But to try and implicate AIDS upon Evangelicals for speaking the Facts is not only ridiculous but clearly shows an agenda to foment hatred of Christianity, Christ and God Himself. Your argument, Susan, is not with evangelicals at all but the rule of the Law laid down by God Himself.
So your statement, of your were honest, would read this way:
"He would tell me I should encourage God to recognize the way He is not fully inclusive of sinners actually helps spreads the AIDS virus and ruins lives."
Be straight forward Susan and at least tell us honestly what you think instead of lobbing mudballs from behind the corpse of a friend.
December 12, 2007 3:56 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 12, 2007 15:56
Dear Truth?
If God didn't, then who did?
December 12, 2007 1:59 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 12, 2007 13:59
TO TRUTH:
In your post don't you see yourself in their too.
Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.
December 12, 2007 1:04 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 12, 2007 13:04
From the New York Times
Islam’s Silent Moderates
By AYAAN HIRSI ALI
Published: December 7, 2007
The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with 100 stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. (Koran 24:
"The key to ending this tyranny of interpretation of the Koran is within the Koran itself, if the people have the courage to use it."
IN the last few weeks, in three widely publicized episodes, we have seen Islamic justice enacted in ways that should make Muslim moderates rise up in horror.
A 20-year-old woman from Qatif, Saudi Arabia, reported that she had been abducted by several men and repeatedly raped. But judges found the victim herself to be guilty. Her crime is called “mingling”: when she was abducted, she was in a car with a man not related to her by blood or marriage, and in Saudi Arabia, that is illegal. Last month, she was sentenced to six months in prison and 200 lashes with a bamboo cane.
Two hundred lashes are enough to kill a strong man. Women usually receive no more than 30 lashes at a time, which means that for seven weeks the “girl from Qatif,” as she’s usually described in news articles, will dread her next session with Islamic justice. When she is released, her life will certainly never return to normal: already there have been reports that her brother has tried to kill her because her “crime” has tarnished her family’s honor.
We also saw Islamic justice in action in Sudan, when a 54-year-old British teacher named Gillian Gibbons was sentenced to 15 days in jail before the government pardoned her this week; she could have faced 40 lashes. When she began a reading project with her class involving a teddy bear, Ms. Gibbons suggested the children choose a name for it. They chose Muhammad; she let them do it. This was deemed to be blasphemy.
Then there’s Taslima Nasreen, the 45-year-old Bangladeshi writer who bravely defends women’s rights in the Muslim world. Forced to flee Bangladesh, she has been living in India. But Muslim groups there want her expelled, and one has offered 500,000 rupees for her head. In August she was assaulted by Muslim militants in Hyderabad, and in recent weeks she has had to leave Calcutta and then Rajasthan. Taslima Nasreen’s visa expires next year, and she fears she will not be allowed to live in India again.
It is often said that Islam has been “hijacked” by a small extremist group of radical fundamentalists. The vast majority of Muslims are said to be moderates.
But where are the moderates? Where are the Muslim voices raised over the terrible injustice of incidents like these? How many Muslims are willing to stand up and say, in the case of the girl from Qatif, that this manner of justice is appalling, brutal and bigoted — and that no matter who said it was the right thing to do, and how long ago it was said, this should no longer be done?
Usually, Muslim groups like the Organization of the Islamic Conference are quick to defend any affront to the image of Islam. The organization, which represents 57 Muslim states, sent four ambassadors to the leader of my political party in the Netherlands asking him to expel me from Parliament after I gave a newspaper interview in 2003 noting that by Western standards some of the Prophet Muhammad’s behavior would be unconscionable. A few years later, Muslim ambassadors to Denmark protested the cartoons of Muhammad and demanded that their perpetrators be prosecuted.
But while the incidents in Saudi Arabia, Sudan and India have done more to damage the image of Islamic justice than a dozen cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad, the organizations that lined up to protest the hideous Danish offense to Islam are quiet now.
I wish there were more Islamic moderates. For example, I would welcome some guidance from that famous Muslim theologian of moderation, Tariq Ramadan. But when there is true suffering, real cruelty in the name of Islam, we hear, first, denial from all these organizations that are so concerned about Islam’s image. We hear that violence is not in the Koran, that Islam means peace, that this is a hijacking by extremists and a smear campaign and so on. But the evidence mounts up.
Islamic justice is a proud institution, one to which more than a billion people subscribe, at least in theory, and in the heart of the Islamic world it is the law of the land. But take a look at the verse above: more compelling even than the order to flog adulterers is the command that the believer show no compassion. It is this order to choose Allah above his sense of conscience and compassion that imprisons the Muslim in a mindset that is archaic and extreme.
If moderate Muslims believe there should be no compassion shown to the girl from Qatif, then what exactly makes them so moderate?
When a “moderate” Muslim’s sense of compassion and conscience collides with matters prescribed by Allah, he should choose compassion. Unless that happens much more widely, a moderate Islam will remain wishful thinking.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali
December 12, 2007 11:54 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 12, 2007 11:54
>> 'I cannot believe that a loving God created some folk attracted to their own sex....'
According to the Genesis account.....He didnt
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
..anything else is a perversion against the inherent excellence in our existence. Note from the New Testament.
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
December 7, 2007 3:12 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 7, 2007 15:12
Terra; I have to answer your statements. Look at the record. The 20th Century just past was the bloodyest in human history--2 World Wars, numerous smaller wars, a holocaust killing at least 6 million Jews, and the list goes on and on. Why is that--if man can somehow improve himself? The German nation was advanced in every area of civilization but look what that nation did under the leadership of a diabolical maniac. The truth is man can't improve himself by education or willing himself to be better. Only a change of the spirit in man can do that. Jesus Christ said that man must be reborn in the spirit. I recommend a careful reading of the Gospel of John. See what it says about humanity. See what is says to you.
December 6, 2007 7:26 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 6, 2007 19:26
Well, Daniel, it's pretty telling that of all their 'sins' they focus most on the ones that they aren't voting for and actively promoting: ...you know, greed, wrath, gluttony, ...I'm sure there's a few others.
They focus on 'sins' they can blame others for, like *being LBGT* or *actually having beliefs that *don't* involve hatred and repression of others.* *
Certain conservatives *use* the suffering of others, which they seek to impose and worsen, for their own sense of 'spiritual' piety and authoritarian gratification.
Like I saw in an amusing comic strip, "When did you know you were gay?" "I was pretty sure when there were a whole bunch of people beating on me and calling me gay." :)
December 6, 2007 4:02 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 6, 2007 16:02
To show a Conservative Christian how wrong he was with his reflexive homophobia, I took an anti-gay article and retyped it, and made it into an "anti-fat" article. It worked pretty well, that "...fat people are an abomination to God, that their bodies are temples which they are debauching, that they freely chose a lifestyle that is unhealthy and unChristian, that God hates fat people..." It worked surprisingly well. And then when I showed it to my friend, to my surprize, he just didn't get it. He replied to me in a puzzlement, "this is silly; God doesn't hate fat people;" and then I knew he was hopeles. It is all the more ironic because so many Christians do, indeed, seem to have a real struggle with food and weight, yet they continue to be judgemental of others, and seek special treatment for themselves.
December 6, 2007 3:03 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 6, 2007 15:03
This was the question:
"Rick Warren's Saddleback Church just hosted its third "Global Summit on AIDS and the Church." Do you think the world's biggest social problems -- poverty, disease, homelessness -- can be cured by well-intentioned religious believers?"
My short answer is, "no."
The problems of health care, homelessness, and poverty are too big and too complex to be solved by "well-intentioned religious believers." Only large secular institutions can exert the economic and political pressure and summon the wealth and resources to have any real impact on these problems.
By "well-intentioned religiouss believer," would I assume the questioner meant "Christians?"
If so, I think of Christianity as a personal religion that guides me in my personal experiences, so that I might be moved to give a handout to a homeless person that I might meet on the street. So, even if alot of us would do that, it could not match the good work of large, well organized secular institutions.
"Well-intentioned believer" is sort of a euphemistic misnomer, which does not mean much.
Did you ever know someone with a "good heart?" You notice their "good heart," and you think of that person with a "good heart." You might even be moved to say to that person, "you have a good heart." And why would you say such a thing? Because a "good heart" really stands out in the crowded world of regular hearts, or bad hearts.
It is not religious belief or practice that causes someone's heart to be good. Being a "well-intentioned believer" does not make a person better or more willing or able to cure or solve all the problems of the world; it does not even make a person good.
Religion, mainly, is a reaction to death, sickness, suffering, and wonder at how this world can be as it is. Being good is not part of any of that. But some people, are, nevertheless, mysteriously, good.
December 6, 2007 2:46 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 6, 2007 14:46
I mean, seriously, when people are saying that because you are of one minority, they can say, whoever you are as a person, that you:
"have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. "
...How do you *not* see *hatred?*
Look. You can't just stick "Oh, but we love you (pathetic, evil murderers) anyway" on there and call it 'love,' when you're really looking at innocent human beings and saying:
"God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death,..."
...Not seeing the 'love,' gotta tell you.
I think it's something more obvious.
December 6, 2007 2:46 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 6, 2007 14:46
Who says homosexuality is a sin? Christ never talked about it. Some try to make the case that he did in a round about way, but it's a stretch.
The only scripture you have to stand on is the Leviticus passages, but Leviticus is a holiness code written 3,000 years ago and also prohibits round haircuts, tattoos, working on the Sabbath, wearing garments of mixed fabrics, getting your fortune told, and even playing with the skin of a pig (so, no football). What's more, even in its own day it was intended for priests only.
The same code forbids masturbation and interrupting coitus (stopping intercourse early as birth control). Why were these practices, and homosexuality, considered to be an offense? Because the Hebrew view of semen was that it contained the whole of life (they didn't understand that the woman has an egg). They were at that time struggling to grow as a country, their enemies outnumbered them--so you can see why wasting any lives would be an offense to the community.
But this doesn't mean that Christ, who didn't even hold the followers of his own day to the Leviticus code, necessarily condemns homosexuality as we know it today. He focused on teaching about love and compassion. He was a wise man.
He also said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Sage advice.
December 6, 2007 2:43 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 6, 2007 14:43
Yes, Crewsin and and Kaitlin are classic examples of religious hypocrites, and far, far, far from being Christ-like in any way. "Hate the sin, love the sinner" is disingenuous and mean in spirit. If you don't like gay people, at least have the courage of your convictions, and just come out with it. People, such as these, I fear, are irretrievably, lost.
December 6, 2007 2:16 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 6, 2007 14:16
You demonstrate the problem, exactly Kaitlin:
"Maybe the reason gays, bisexuals, lesbians, and transexual christians react the way they do towards Christian evangelicals is because they have a conscience and are personally convicted?"
Maybe they have a conscience which gives them the personal conviction that it's wrong to treat gay people as evangelicals do.
Just maybe 'love the sinner, hate the sin' is a rationalization of hatred that becomes all too clearly a dodge when one's exposed to it in one's daily life.
Taking your Bible verses to mean that identifiable minorities 'chose to sin' and are therefore fair game for repression and oppression is a *prime case of where some forms of religion probably best stop actively trying to hurt others before they have the least bit of authority on trying to 'solve world problems.'
Frankly, the homophobia and emphasis thereon usually comes with a whole lot of other policies that don't turn out to work so well for anything but generating more religious hysteria... and suffering.
"Everyone in life has to learn that no matter what you believe, there will always be people there who disagree. Why let that control and ruin our lives?"
Well, that's a good question. Unfortunately, it's the evangelicals who want the governmental power to control, and even to ruin, the lives of people who believe differently.
December 6, 2007 1:55 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 6, 2007 13:55
This article is very interesting. When you say he was a pastor, I'm assuming he was Christian. To look at it from a different perspective, christian fundamentalists are more inclined to strongly disagree with your statement that says they make matters worse. Id like to believe that first, faith is a personal thing. Christians who follow the bible and its contents would most likely mention the bible verses in Romans chapter 1 starting at verse 18:
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.(NLT) [END} (Compliments of biblegateway.com)
It may be easy to label those Christians as "Homophobics", however- the real matter is that they indeed do believe homosexuality is a sin. Its their faith and belief in the bible that results in their non-approval of homosexuality. That doesn't permit them to become "haters" but it is their right to "disaprove." Maybe the reason gays, bisexuals, lesbians, and transexual christians react the way they do towards Christian evangelicals is because they have a conscience and are personally convicted? Everyone in life has to learn that no matter what you believe, there will always be people there who disagree. Why let that control and ruin our lives?
December 6, 2007 1:06 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 6, 2007 13:06
Susan,
I am so sorry for the loss of such a fine man. We need more folks who can bridge the gulf that seperates us from the universal truth of love and compassion.
Your friend and student has left behind the love and fearlessness that he preached. The lessons he taught were left in fertile ground and in the end we all will benefit by it.
I have in just your talking about him.
As a Wiccan, I believe that the spirit of those who pass on do return.. he will and others like him will, bringing all of us to that place where unity of minds and hearts meet.
Namaste,
terra
December 6, 2007 12:25 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 6, 2007 12:25
crewsin,
First off you might be surprised at how many deeply religious people there are in the Liberal side of the Democratic party. But then you mean YOUR way of practicing the Christian religion don't you?
I am a Liberal...and PROUD of it! My best friend is a black gay man...and my prayer is for peace and balance in this world. I see him being hurt all the time by you loving Christians.
Your idea of hate the sin but...blah blah blah makes me want to bite something. It is full of hypocracy. You have to think that a person being true to who they are born, are wrong and sinful. Your religion allows you to have that hate and feel righteous.
Man has the duty and right to improve themselves. We all need to be perfected in how we treat others.
Romney just made a statement that he will not side with any one religion but will call for the agknowledgment of God.
But then it is his view of God isn't it? Will my view of God and my religion be accomodated or will we be forced the rest of the way into the shadows, again? Bush tried...in some places he succeeded...will someone like Romney or Huckaby finish the job?
In a hundred year will Wicca be mainstream, like Mormonism is now? Does the story of a 14 year old prophet with magic glasses, "to see gold plates" make sense? Well now it seems as long as a person spouts the right bigotry it is fine. A hundred years ago, Mormons were chased out of one town after another...they were killed and killed others.
They did not alow Blacks to join...and even now they can not be in any kind of high Priesthood.
Did you know that Mormon Priests will check out the obituary for the recently dead and when there is a Mormon baby that needs baptised they will also baptise the dead...no matter what religion they are , into the Mormon faith? It's called Baptiseing the Dead. Yuck.
But everyone's religion seems strange to those who do not know the layers of the religion. Taken at face value all religions are weird. But they all give to their followers something for the spirit.We all deserve to be treated with respect, all of us; those of the God you know and the ones you do not...or those who do not find that connection to deity.
Are we not citizens?
So Crewsin...as a proud Far Left, Progressive Liberal and Pagan I love you and wish you well...I do my best to live by our moral guide,' An do what ye will, but harm none." But I want to let you in on a secret...cut the "hate the sin and love the sinner" crap...it just alienates those who might be more polite then me, and listen.
terra
December 6, 2007 12:13 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 6, 2007 12:13
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