All Comments (37)

If you were going to be tortured, would you want to be tortured by an amature torturer or a professional torturer?

Reverend Thistlethwaite

While I happen to agree that torture is wrong - see my posts in connection with Msgr. Bohlin's (hope I got the spelling correct) post, I think it is fair to ask a question. You write at length about what torture does to the soul, to the person being tortured, to the torturer, etc., but I think it is reasonable to assume that you have neither tortured not been tortured. So, fair question: how do you know?

It seems to me that you are torturing words.

But, without all that fluff, it's okay to say that torture is morally wrong and should be offensive to any person contemplating doing it.

Whether actually doing it produces any adverse results in the person doing it, or more than temporary effects in every person tortured, probably depends on the method of torture and the makeup of the people.

Anyhow, the point is, respectfully, that you don't have to go into conjuring up what the unknown unknowns (to conjure up another torturer of the language, Donald Rumsfeld) are to make the point.

Let's just say we have known knowns and known unknowns and No-Nos.

"So the scenario where torture is most effective is also the one where it is least valuable. Remember that at Abu Ghraib, the torturers sought the locations of the IED factories that were killing American soldiers. Now four years after Abu Ghraib (Nov. 03), the primary cause of death for American soldiers in Iraq is the IED."

Well, blame that on the *quarter million pounds of high explosive* that were left unguarded at an ammo dump for the photo-op of people pulling down Saddam's statue, and have since been in the wind.

They don't need a factory.

We *handed* them the munitions.

.
How do we differ from the torturers (nazis, inquisition-ists, etc.)? A matter of degrees? Can one be "half-a-torturer," or "part-time-torturer," or "amature-torturer" or "case-by-case torturer"?

Is the difference the "reasons" or "justifications" for the use of torture?

Can this be by saying that "the end justify the means"? Does it? Or is the end the product of the means, indelibly? When for reasons of faith or religion, or for ideology or politics, can torture be no longer called torture? What do we call it then? Extreme Persuasion? And the torturer, Intense Persuader? Do such exercises change anything?

Or is a torturer, is a torturer, is a torturer?

That is, of course, unless he does it for us (not to us)? If he is one of us?

As in: What if torturing will save your country, or property, or your brother, or your father, or yourself?

What if it is the (seemingly) only way to punish mass murderers and the like?

Don't we fight fire with fire somethings, and effectively too? But fire is "inanimate" and we are talking here about human beings?

Ahh, decisions, decisions--the torture of free will, the ultimate price of having a conscience, the cost of being a member of humanity.

Of course, you can join the millions of others who do not even give this issue a thought, much less a feel. You can resign your humanity by default, did you know? Just don't read this lady or having inadvertently read her, just shrug your shoulder. Or you could decide that you might as well join those who indulge in "intellectual masturbation"--at least they seem to be doing something albeit for no appreciable benefit to the world (and they are so many, read the blogs).

Can you? Should you? What will you do?
.

TORTURE IS MORALLY INDEFENSIBLE IN EVERY CASE, IRRESPECTIVE OF THE PERPETRATOR OR THE OBJECT OF THE TORTURE.

But, you gentle souls have led me to reconsider my position.

Perhaps the gauge of immorality can be lowered just enough to torture bush and cheney,

(add RICH, FOR HIS GRAMMATICAL EVILS - for good measure), How 'bout it, OESTE?

BUT not to extract information. The torture would be JUST FOR FUN!!! (I am already smiling).

Torture does work sometimes.

If the person knows little and isn't conditioned to resist torture, then torture will work.

If the person knows some and is conditioned to resist, then he or she will have to be tortured by well experienced torturers. The Abu Ghraib program would not work against these terrorist. A terrorist that was vetted with a suicide bomb (those whose suicide bombs did not explode), can be even more difficult to break. Mossad might be able to break them, but America is not Mossad. We have allies in the Arab world.

If a person knows a great amount and has been prepared through Manchurian Candidate style hypnosis and conditioning, then torture will not work. In fact, the psychological mechanisms that make the information irretrivable to the terrorist himself or herself will actually lock down the information tighter when the person is tortured. It's a little bit like becoming so stressed out that you can't remember a final exam answer that you knew just an hour ago. The stress makes remembering more difficult, not less difficult.

So the scenario where torture is most effective is also the one where it is least valuable. Remember that at Abu Ghraib, the torturers sought the locations of the IED factories that were killing American soldiers. Now four years after Abu Ghraib (Nov. 03), the primary cause of death for American soldiers in Iraq is the IED.

Frankly, I have a hard time taking anyone who claims there is any religious or humanistic justification for torture seriously.

Two things, Rich.
First, you don't have to repeat the entire comment to which you are replying. It is confusing and uses up space.
Second, not every discussion is about abortion. I sympathize - after all I myself feel very strongly about the misuse of apostrophes and people saying lay when they mean lie. But I try to address the topic at hand, as painful as it is for me to endure a society that is so rife with grammatical evil.

Oftentimes torture does not work. Most believe this is due to the fact that a tortured person will say whatever will make the pain stop. That's true. But there are other reasons too.

Well planned torture can reduce the full number of extremely painful moments that a person must experience. Even the strongest of mind will collapse if you begin torturing at sunrise and schedule a full day of activities.

That's what was so surprising about Abu Ghraib. The torture stopped with the sunrise, so the victims knew that the torture was wrong and they knew it would eventually end at daybreak. Start them out in the morning and they know that the stress and duress is in the daylight and will certainly outlast their ability to resist.

There are also ways to indoctrinate terrorist to pscyholically withstand torture. We've all seen people who walk over hot coals and rest on beds of nails. So it is possible for the human mind to resist the impact of pain and endure. The al Qaeda videos shown on television depict bad guys practicing on gymnasium equipment, but the truth of their training is probably more akin to that seen in The Manchurian Candidate. Sometimes all the terrorist will remember is dream-like, fleeting, and confused memories of hypnosis. No amount of torture can break through to memories that are securely locked away.

Usually, the terrorist's the first test of devotion is the suicide bomb. A terrorist wears the bomb and detonates it to show commitment. If it fails to explode, then he or she progresses to the next level of martyrdom. That sort of person isn't likely to give up what they do know so easily.

Terrorism is very difficult to stop with either shock and awe or shock and awl. And of course, the goal of Jihadist terrorism is to destroy America -- physically, economically, and morally. The high ground is always the best place to make a defense.

Rich,
Pagan is a proper Noun..PaganPlace is a proper name. Now are you calling PaganPlace by her religion? or as a first name..? either way..unless you want us to start calling Christian xian.... you will give our faith and Paganplace's name the respect both deserves.

Stop being rude. You make of your religion something intolerantr and petty. You don't like us..? well I personally do not like you. I am sure you care about as much as I do. Not.

Maybe one day there will be a question about abortion, until then stick with the comments on the question and stop being such a twirp.

terra

Paganplace:

With the diversion, Rich says:

" Rich:

"I wonder if you are this upset about abortion?"

Was that somehow necessary? Somehow, I must have missed the course where they taught it was OK to stick splints under people's fingernails as long as someone said 'Rape victims should be subject to their rapists if they get pregnant.' "

Just looking for some perspective there pagan. I was wondering how you felt about innocent life being snuffed out all in the name of choice. From your answer I would suspect you are all for it but you could prove me wrong by answering the question. I won't hold my breath though.

chaot writes:"Such church leaders are equally at fault if they fail to oppose an unjust war,"

so what was a just war ? and if you have a just war, do innocent women and children get slaughtered like they do in every war? so then its ok ? or are you a pacifist against all war in which case we would all be saluting Hitler/Tojo ? what are the consequences of yr type of thinking ? a world thru rose colored glasses were all bad men say "ok, I'll stop doing bad things". Get real, the easiest thing to be is a pacifist liberal because it entails doing nothing.

The great unspoken and unreported violation against the human spirit is that the United States Congress has ruled out of our law Psychological torture. This aspect of torture is every bit as destructive and often as painful in the truest sense of human pain and loss.
This license once granted degrades the moral and ethical foundations of America. Having been so tortured myself, I am compelled to speak out about this abomination. It is used as a political tool in America and has been taken up by private and corporate entities for gain and obstruction.

How bout a *no?* Come on, Christians, surely if you can apply oblique reasoning to my queer self not deserving equal protection under the law, you can say *no* to torturing people?

Come on.

How bout it?

No.

How bout...

No!

Just... No!

No further.

We draw the line *here,*

We say *no.*

If not here, I don't know where.

One might get the impression I've had a rather ..interesting lifetime.

I lose sleep.... often, over a number of things.

People being insufficiently-tortured is not one of them.

It is not possible for any Christian to support, condone, or ignore anything that even approaches torture without being a hypocrite and one who claims an identification without any commitment or justification!

The examples of your savior helping enemies, turning the other cheek, casting the first stone, and on and on are one of the core and more numerous messages of your holy book!

Further, all Christian leaders who do not denounce and actively work to stop, prevent, and care for the tortured are failing their Christian responsibility and in turn become as guilty as the torturer and the leaders who established the rules and policies that enabled these un-Christian acts to be done!

Such church leaders are equally at fault if they fail to oppose an unjust war, do not oppose bombing and killing of any civilians as collateral damage when there is no direct and immediate danger to life from the combatants, and they should oppose the inhumane and deadly use of depleted uranium for munitions as this substance is deadly for thousands of years and affects civilians especially children living and to be born in terrible, wasting ways!

It's possible, Christians, that the terrorists actually *terrorized you.*

*snapping fingers.*

Americans.

On this, I couldn't give two steaming ones what you think our 'heritage' is.

This is *not us.*

Get it?

Appearsi'm six or seven years past witnessing a lotta death and trying to run into burning buildings.

Wake up.

This is not us.

If you can't see that, I don't care who you pray to.

You're on your own.

Until, of course, the next time.

Come on. Fire a couple neurons, here.

Gods.

With the diversion, Rich says:

" Rich:

"I wonder if you are this upset about abortion?"

Was that somehow necessary? Somehow, I must have missed the course where they taught it was OK to stick splints under people's fingernails as long as someone said 'Rape victims should be subject to their rapists if they get pregnant.'

Biblical. Wrong. Next?

" I bet you are more upset about cutting a tree down."

Really. You prattle on about 9/11. Were you *there?*

" I know making these guys watch the weather channel 24/7 is torture."

Take that up with the Weather channel.

" I think now they are piping in Hillary speeches as well. Three square and pork free is not torture. Sorry to burst your bubble."

I'm not sure what *bubble* you may be referring to, but.... Explain what this means about torturing people in America again?

dear sir, i have read with interest the article torture kills the soul.i congratulate the writer for his bold conviction.let us look around & find out who is the torturer & who is the tortured one?how can this be stopped?.
my dear sir, who cares for human dignity & moral values.the leadership of contemporary world has faleen recebtly in the hands of those a care a fig about all this
let us pray that good sense prevails over them & they lead the world to peaceful dignity honouring all human beings as our equals.
aflatoon india

Professor Thistlethwaite said,"Finally, torture destroys the dignity of the society that authorizes it. In addition to morally degrading both the tortured and the torturer, the community that offers a license to torture is fundamentally degraded in its claim to be a civilized nation."

I saw an article day before yesterday that spoke to this. The Vice President of the United States is fully aware that this is true, but he chose to obscure that by claiming that admitting that we as a nation use and condone torture will give aid to our enemies.

The lie is that our enemies and those few friends we have left in the international community know what we are doing.

What this administration fears is that an open discussion such as this one will cause the public at large to stop listening to the lies that come from the mouths of those in charge of policy now. I suspect that is why Bush's nominee to replace Alberto Gonzales has tied himself in knots to refrain from answering the questions on torture. He is either a supporter of that policy or he fallaciously believes he could end them. His attempts give me no confidence either way.

I am not a religious believer, yet I stand firmly with those members of all religious beliefs who understand and strive for the dignity of all individuals.

When the revulsion is strong enough, those in charge will be driven from power one way or another. I hope that it is by means of the ballot and that those responsible for the policy of torture will be held accountable in our own courts of law.

Professor Thistlethwaite said,"Finally, torture destroys the dignity of the society that authorizes it. In addition to morally degrading both the tortured and the torturer, the community that offers a license to torture is fundamentally degraded in its claim to be a civilized nation."

I saw an article day before yesterday that spoke to this. The Vice President of the United States is fully aware that this is true, but he chose to obscure that by claiming that admitting that we as a nation use and condone torture will give aid to our enemies.

The lie is that our enemies and those few friends we have left in the international community know what we are doing.

What this administration fears is that an open discussion such as this one will cause the public at large to stop listening to the lies that come from the mouths of those in charge of policy now. I suspect that is why Bush's nominee to replace Alberto Gonzales has tied himself in knots to refrain from answering the questions on torture. He is either a supporter of that policy or he fallaciously believes he could end them. His attempts give me no confidence either way.

I am not a religious believer, yet I stand firmly with those members of all religious beliefs who understand and strive for the dignity of all individuals.

When the revulsion is strong enough, those in charge will be driven from power one way or another. I hope that it is by means of the ballot and that those responsible for the policy of torture will be held accountable in our own courts of law.

Professor Thistlethwaite said,"Finally, torture destroys the dignity of the society that authorizes it. In addition to morally degrading both the tortured and the torturer, the community that offers a license to torture is fundamentally degraded in its claim to be a civilized nation."

I saw an article day before yesterday that spoke to this. The Vice President of the United States is fully aware that this is true, but he chose to obscure that by claiming that admitting that we as a nation use and condone torture will give aid to our enemies.

The lie is that our enemies and those few friends we have left in the international community know what we are doing.

What this administration fears is that an open discussion such as this one will cause the public at large to stop listening to the lies that come from the mouths of those in charge of policy now. I suspect that is why Bush's nominee to replace Alberto Gonzales has tied himself in knots to refrain from answering the questions on torture. He is either a supporter of that policy or he fallaciously believes he could end them. His attempts give me no confidence either way.

I am not a religious believer, yet I stand firmly with those members of all religious beliefs who understand and strive for the dignity of all individuals.

When the revulsion is strong enough, those in charge will be driven from power one way or another. I hope that it is by means of the ballot and that those responsible for the policy of torture will be held accountable in our own courts of law.

I'll be damned! A theologian that I can agree with!

Torture is wrong and Senator John McCain says it accomplishes nothing. The Senator should know because he was tortured for years. If you read his book, you wonder how he survived. I could not help but be inspired to think that maybe if I were so tested I could also endure. Senator McCain survived, he did not lose his soul, like Ms. Twit says will happen if you are tortured. Ms. Twit is a depressing person who has little faith. For Christ was tortured and He not only survived, and did not lose His soul, He triumphed. That is also a comfort and a great inspiration.

As a believer in Jesus Christ nothing can destroy my soul, not even torture. This is one of the messages coming from the cross. This is of great comfort for none of us knows what lies ahead.

McCain is a wonderful hope for me since McCain is an example of human triumph over all circumstances and a soul that can not be destroyed. Nothing can destroy your soul except you own free choice to reject God's salvation and believing the drivel from folks like Ms. Twit.

TJ: writes

Alex writes: "You can see very clearly the diff between what we are and what totalitarian despotic regimes who torture are like."

Really Alex? Would you say that that difference has been getting clearer or has been getting less clear?

--no TJ , we have move on, Koz, Ted Kennedy, lawsuits, Rosie and too many bleeding heart liberals. Do you think there was anything even remotely close to these insane liberal institutions during Stalin/Mao or Hitlers day's ? You need to get a little more intellectual honesty before posting yr comments.

Norrie writes:"We didn't torture in WWII and prosecuted U.S. and enemy troops who waterboarded prisoners. We still won and kept enightened values alive."

No Norrie, what happened during the bombing of Dresden ? the constant fire bombing of civilian cities in Japan. Tens of thousands of innocent women and children died . And we wont even talk about Hiroshima . If yr arguments are based on the above , then yr arguments ring hollow because yr premise is historically inaccurate. Dont let the facts get in the way of yr belief.

Ben Cohen:

You are completely on target and the fact that you are the only religious leader who has expressed this to my knowledge is a sad commentary on the moral bankrupcy of our religious and church leaders.

Just as jailers have to spend alot of time in jail, torturers suffer almost as much as the tortured. our political equivicators should be ashamed and held criminally accountable, so their successors will never be tempted to repeat the disasterous policies that have condoned it. Wheteher they admit it or not - torture is sin"

Ben, I wonder if you think abortion is torture or a sin and what exactly you are doing to stop the endless parade of abortions and give life to the yet millions to be aborted? Can you throw us a bone on that one?

I wonder if you are this upset about abortion? I bet you are more upset about cutting a tree down. I know making these guys watch the weather channel 24/7 is torture. I think now they are piping in Hillary speeches as well. Three square and pork free is not torture. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Rev T- thanks for not mentioning Jesus in this essay on torture.

Right on, Rev. Brooks.

Though, really, one can survive, if she realizes our humanity is *not* dependent upon what we think or say or even believe, but in our ability to be human anyway.

I would go further to say that we are vexed by issues of torture in large measure because of the *tales and myths* our society tells about torture: our films and movies act out martyrdom dramas of people *resisting pain in the name of a righteous cause,* and *tell* people that those of good faith *do not break,* ... to make this false idea *heroic* is also to say that regular people who *do* break and lose sense of reality under torture are *un-blessed.*

It's to say our humanity *depends* on not having real-world brains and bodies, when it comes down to it.

That's not true. Feels that way, ...people are treated that way, but it's not so.

Jon Stewart said it best when conservative Christian candidates kept invoking the show 24 to justify policies of torture:

"A-ha... I see... The enemies of the state this is for are... Fictional.*

An innate *premise* of torture is that the mind can be overwhelmed by sensations and experiences. In order to implement it, one must deny the very myth by which the Christian world *sees* torture.

Scorn is then heaped on those who prove *merely* human, for *not* being quite the holy martyrs they're trained to expect to be... the same kind of martyrs terrorists think they're being in the first place.

This plays into the same view of world and even soul and humanity that generates the situation in the first place.

Not that it doesn't cause permanent damage... Not that our society can only seem to find scorn for the victims, ...but it's not that it *really* makes people not-human. It just makes them not-the-kind-of-human-some-stories-pretend-we are.

Same difference, usually. But there's a difference.

"Will it save innocent lives?, can it foil a terrible plot?. To go on and on about how torture destroys humanity and every living soul and person doesn't answer the realistic questions that we face when choosing to use or not use torture."

What torture does to victims and torturers and America alike *is* the realistic question.

Cause it doesn't save lives.

It creates victims, and it creates monsters.

People saying 'torture is a) acceptable b) necessary, and c) We don't call it torture when we do it, anyway,' ...that's the profile of an abuser.

Whatever else you may say, that's not my America.

Period.

Correct in every respect.

alex: Unfortunately, we are using the same techniques described in the Gulag Archipelago. By the way, sleeplessness is rated there as one of the worse forms of torture, along with tickling (apparently, PAIN is not the only way you can torture someone).

Perhaps you take comfort in the SCALE of the event. I object and resent that the event is done in my name!

As for "Will it save innocent lives?, can it foil a terrible plot?": According to the experts in interrogation, the anser is NO. That is an unequivocal answer. The answer, at the risk of repeating myself, is NO.

In other words, there is not even a 'practical' justification for torture (unless you are st4p1d enough to watch '24').

Alex writes: "You can see very clearly the diff between what we are and what totalitarian despotic regimes who torture are like."

Really Alex? Would you say that that difference has been getting clearer or has been getting less clear?

Alex,

You've been watching too much "24". That's not how things happen.

We didn't torture in WWII and prosecuted U.S. and enemy troops who waterboarded prisoners. We still won and kept enightened values alive.

"He who saves one person saves the whole world."

"He who kills one person destroys the whole world."

"He who tortures one person tortures all beings."

Evil or good exist in individual instances. If we torture one person we have become Hitler and Stalin.

"After the first death, there is no other." (Dylan Thomas)

After the first torturing, there is no other.

You are completely on target and the fact that you are the only religious leader who has expressed this to my knowledge is a sad commentary on the moral bankrupcy of our religious and church leaders.

Just as jailers have to spend alot of time in jail, torturers suffer almost as much as the tortured. our political equivicators should be ashamed and held criminally accountable, so their successors will never be tempted to repeat the disasterous policies that have condoned it. Wheteher they admit it or not - torture is sin.

You are completely on target and the fact that you are the only religious leader who has expressed this to my knowledge is a sad commentary on the moral bankrupcy of our religious and church leaders.

Just as jailers have to spend alot of time in jail, torturers suffer almost as much as the tortured. our political equivicators should be ashamed and held criminally accountable, so their successors will never be tempted to repeat the disasterous policies that have condoned it. Wheteher they admit it or not - torture is sin.

Susan,

You have to make some distinctions here.The Gestapo, Stalin, Fidel tortured as a matter of daily practice. Those who think torture can be used cite very specific examples of when and how it is to be used. Its disingenuous to compare ourselves to Nazi's or what happens in the gulag. You can see very clearly the diff between what we are and what totalitarian despotic regimes who torture are like. No one doubts the effects of torture but it is the alternative which makes us consider it. Will it save innocent lives?, can it foil a terrible plot?. To go on and on about how torture destroys humanity and every living soul and person doesn't answer the realistic questions that we face when choosing to use or not use torture.