All Comments (126)

I am an atheist. I consider myself a man of honour, moral and decency. When I read comments like "those who refuse to believe in an afterlife should be blown up" reinforces my adherence to atheism, and my utter comtempt for the so-called religions of the world. Given the chance to do it all over again, I am certain the organized religions would not miss an opportunity to go back to "witch and heretic burning" with wild abandon. This very form of thinking that one's beliefs are the only correct ones and that everybody else lives "in error" is absolutely ridiculous, pathetic and ludicrous. Nobody has ever gone to war and committed atrocities in the name of Lucifer or whatever name it is that religion use to instill fear and obedience in its followers. Get people to believe in absurdities and you will have them commit atrocities (Voltaire). So keep your religious nonsense out of my life and let others believe whatever they want without feeling obligated to condemn and threatened them with either eternal fire (yeah, right, so much for your "loving god") or have them blown up just because they have freely chosen a different way to dignify their lives, instead of letting brain-washing and conditionning (also know as faith to you religious folks) dictate their minds and every emotions. Let common-sense and acceptance prevail. Pagan, Wiccan, whatever, just enjoy your freely chosen path.

I'll note that the experience E. Robbins describes here is actually quite typical (Actually, I referred to it when we were being accused of 'profiteering' by expecting to be treated as other religions. As taxpayers, we subsidize big and wealthy Christian churches, but try and get tax-exempt status for our humbler organizations and worship spaces, you'd think we were suddenly bankrupting the government or something.

This post has been fascinating. I am impressed with the efforts of some here to adequate "explain" Paganism, and won't try to further those explanations. I have a few points to add to the mix. My experience is as a co-leader of the group, Immanent Grove, that was mentioned in the original article.

Do we enjoy the same tax-exempt status of other religions? Not often. Here in Maine, when the Grove wished to become entitled to the sales/use tax exemption, commonly available to mainstream churches, we were turned down. Several times. It took years to get there, just to make the point. We really don't purchase much, so we don't use the privilege in actual practice. Initially the official in charge stated flatly that Paganism is not a religion because his Webster's defines Pagan as "irreligious". Once we got past pointing out the error of his ways as far as finding legal definitions goes, we had to show how we met the criteria for a "regularly organized local church".
This meant, how much did we resemble that place with a pointy roof that he associates with the word, "church". Are fewer than a certain percentage of our members related to one another? Do we have a permanent structure? Do we meet for worship on a weekly basis? Do we have a religious training program for our Youth? What specifically to we consider to be our holy book? And so on. Oh, and please provide the names of all members. It was charming. In short, we had to show how much like Christianity we were, before we could be called a religion, in order to get the rights that a lunatic fringe, but Christian, church would be given without question.
The fellow who wrote an article denouncing Rita Moran, who seems to have his knickers in a knot about Pagans generally, followed up by trespassing on private property in order to take pictures of the outdoor worship circle. These were then published on the Maine Christian Civic League website in a separate article denouncing a second politically active Pagan. The photographs are of everyday Pagan things like a bench, a firepit (purchased at Target, not Beelsebub's Supply), a G-rated statue (he has a particular problem with Hecate, it seems), and the like. In the first article, he devoted particular attention to the group's efforts to raise money in order to purchase land for Pagan use. Pagans expend so much energy defending themselves against this kind of thing, that it's amazing that we find time more any charitable work at all. But we do. The person who worked out the math, so that there is fewer than one Pagan per military base, could apply that to why we don't have a charitable machine comparable to what the big religions have. In spite of these factors, there are Pagan food pantries, Pagans who volunteer at animal shelters, homeless shelters, abused women shelters, etc. A Pagan member of Interfaith Maine has been promoting the first multi-faith "Habitat for Humanity" project, and area Pagans are excited and eager to help.

I will not try to define others' experiences in Paganism, but will ask the question based on my own polytheistic version: Why does the fact that I believe in ALL deities, and that I specifically honor more than just ONE of them, make me less entitled to free exercise, to respect, to privacy, to equal treatment?
Respectfully,
E.

If you really look at it, for instance, for purposes of this debate, if you take the term Pagan and define it as you choose to try and say, 'This doesn't count as a real religion,' well, the same adversarial treatment would probably disqualify just about any dharmic tradition, most aboriginal ones unless taken solely by specific tribe, and possibly Christianity itself in some cases.

Trying to define us out of 'legitimate' existence will, in the end, serve no soldiers, who are in need of these services.

We can be descriptive, in ways that I hope serve understanding. These senses of boundaries are vague at best and not actually as important to our religion as some (usually self-serving) ideas of what is a 'real' religion would make them out to be.

Certainly, as chaplains, Neopagans are well-equipped to serve people of aboriginal traditions, ...at least we don't think 'you' are 'wrong and ignorant of the 'true message,' and all

Personally, I'm kind of used to approaching other people's Gods or ancestors (real careful, like,) and saying, 'Hi, maybe you don't know me, but there's this guy, here...'

We may not be experts on all world religions, but at least we don't see them as damned and merely conversion targets.
:)

Heck, I've even got more than a little experience helping 'book religion' people pray or otherwise get through harsh stuff without lying. :)

Actually, I think the very idea that the purpose of clergy is to tell people to obey something they may or may not have to serve some extra fear they brought to the table isn't actually where clergy can help folks, in the first place.

Why make the debate about whether our troops deserve representation, and maybe even some ministerial care from other Pagans about, "Who are you guys, anyway? Prove you have authority on my terms."

Heck, that's someone else's idea in the first place.

We're real, though.

I'd point out that I'd hesitate to call us strictly 'orthopraxic' ...our idea of praxis is pretty broad and diverse: strict orthopraxy tends to say, 'Do this thing in this way and get this result,' ...this is something a little different.

Bosumfo Kofi:

"My point is that thoughout this discourse no one has to my satifaction defined Paganism. Yet the term is used thoughout. I have seen it referred to as an "Earth religion." I have seen it referred to as idol worship. But Christianity can be shown to be about idol worship. And Christianity can be shown to be an Earth religion - based upon its practice."

Err, not in the terms of what 'Earth religion' was coined to describe, as I mentioned above. (going back to catch up, I hadn't seen all of the activity here before...)

Ok.

In terms of the Pagans called Pagans who are seeking chaplains, what we're discussing is also known as Neopaganism. This might be a helpful term to keep in mind: in many senses we hearken back to what were once our own 'aboriginal' traditions' in our homelands, (yes, usually Occidental ones, at the core) but it's a modern reconstruction that has taken its own shape. It's a little hard to define because it *is* a new shape.

In the sense of Pagan chaplains, this term is not really meant to encompass every tradition that *could* be called Pagan... you won't really find us defined by some hard boundary, anyway.

Certainly, the Akom faith you describe could be called 'Earth religion' because the Earth you describe is a living, divine thing, not merely an externally-created artifice... not merely a 'thing' for people's use and domination. It's not the presence of a 'Sky god' or even Creator/creatrix that really defines 'non-Pagan' in that sense.

One might better draw the distinction between Earth religion and 'revealed religion,' or 'book religion,' ...which usually says that religion depends upon a 'revelation' of some text and requires obedience. That, for instance, Earth only exists to be transcended.

If Earth is alive and ensouled and divine in some way of Herself, that's probably 'Earth Religion' as the term's meant.

Not all 'Earth religions' are Neopagan. Or Pagan in this sense. Neopaganism has taken the shape it has in large measure because our aboriginal and other traditions were deliberately broken and obscured in history, ...you could say we've put the pieces together in a way we can all share.

In America's 'Melting pot,' particularly, Paganism has become a thing of its own. A framework, if you will, around which much has grown.

We get folks from all over, and learn from all over. There is a consistency which is hard sometimes, even for Pagans to see, but it's there. It's natural to us, even.

I actually dispute the idea that we're not 'meaningfully bonded with a sacred landscape,' however it was phrased. Actually, we are, it's just one which 'imported religions' find mundane and disconnected. We don't. :)

Just cause mine's often best represented by the maps you find at any T station in Greater Boston doesn't make it any less so. There's actually a lot of your Tam Lin/Thomas the Rhymer/countless other Faery/underworld stories (stuff from some of my ancestry) in the 'old' song 'Charlie on the MTA.' :)

Did he ever return? No he never returned. And his fate is still unlearned. :)

I mean, that's obviously not what you'll find at your average Pagan circle, but... it's meant to stress the element of modernity, as well as antiquity, in the movement.

People who see religion solely in terms of authority-from-antiquity have trouble seeing our cohesiveness: this is because much of this is relatively *new.* How we put things together is... Well, I won't say 'new,' but it's new in that it's more conscious and rapid than cultural cross-pollenation has happened in most other times.

These unifying elements embrace diversity as a strength, not a competition or series of divisions. They function in a way that's a little different: the *point* is neither to assimilate others nor to maintain some kind of isolationism.

In terms of specific beliefs, frankly, the more *different* points of view seem to observe a given thing, however they interpret it, the more likely we figure we're onto something. This is very different from the idea that 'The strongest' or 'most local' or 'most traditional' viewpoint must necessarily overwhelm all others.

To us, in fact, those claiming to have 'The One True Religion' (particularly when contradicting others) are most likely to have no idea what they're talking about on any given subject: these are in fact, the ones likely to be making 'extraordinary claims' that blind rather than inform.

We have no interest in trying to establish, define, or impose 'Paganism' as including or speaking for all 'Earth Religion' peoples, you see.

You're the guys who help keep us honest. :)

Certainly we have a lot of common cause and solidarity with all peoples who revere the Mother and see the world as alive and ensouled and all that tends to come with that.

The Pagan movement, well, it does come together around a somewhat-broken heritage, though. We have our own community, and standards, and ideas, at least as cohesive as religions like Christianity: in fact, we're about what I think you'd expect to get if a diverse population of Westerners set aside Judeo-Christian belief and made something out of what we've learned since then and what we have left.

Cause that's kind of how it happened. :)

The result's very inclusive, really, but does have its own community standards and common beliefs. Not so much orthodoxy, or even orthopraxis beyond, 'What works.' Our traditions have evolved from there, and, well, we know what's going on when we go to different circles.

If I can shift the paradigm a bit like that.

What can often catch us between ideas we're an occult conspiracy that had something to do with persecuting early Christians in Rome, and ideas we're just 'doing random stuff and calling it religion' is that the paradigm *is* a bit different.

If this helps. Definitions aren't easy cause in a way, they're not meant to be. It's process, not a packaged 'product,' anyway. :)

To my friend Bosumfo Kofi who said:

"It can also be said that many of us are settlers. African-Americans have been living on American soil for 400 hundred years. I fall into that category. I am a "settler" on American soil. My ancestors were brought here under forced circumstances. Native Americans are the caretakers of this land - they are the aboriginees of America. But you can find Afican-American settlers and European settlers who are self-described Pagans."

Christopher Responds:

That is indeed an excellent point. And certainly one can find Anglo-Americans, African-Americans, and Latinos who profess to be Pagans. In discussing what peoples are aboriginals--I am emphasizing that it does not matter where a person comes from--rather, the quality of being Aboriginal resides in whether persons and institutions have formed meaningful reciprocal spiritual beings with the landscape itself--both Christianity and Islam among European and African settlers preclude relationships with the sacred earth of the Americas--there are religions of time, not physical space. Not all Amerindians are aboriginal, either, for the same reason.

Kofi continues:

"My point is that thoughout this discourse no one has to my satifaction defined Paganism. Yet the term is used thoughout. I have seen it referred to as an "Earth religion." I have seen it referred to as idol worship. But Christianity can be shown to be about idol worship. And Christianity can be shown to be an Earth religion - based upon its practice."

Christopher responds:

The serious religious study of contemporary Paganism is still in its infancy, and just as there are many disagreements over who is a "Jew" or a "Christian," there are also conflicting definitions of what it means to be a Pagan. And that is OK- it means that discussion and debate are ongoing. As a rule of thumb it helps to know that "Paganism" is really an umbrella term for a set of related religions, just as "Abrahamic" refers to a set of religions that share some common qualities, and "Dharmic" refers to another set of religions that share common qualities between them. Pagan religions share a majority of a set of qualities--just as members of a biological family will not have one single quality in common, but are will share from a pool of qualities. One can see family resemblances between Abrahamic religions, Dharmic religions, the members of a biological family, and Pagan religions. Pagans tend to share a set of ritual characteristic and commonalities--Pagan religions are "orthopraxic." At the risk of running on and on, I will merely say that if you investigate some of the other postings on this topic, you will find comments from others like myself who will fill you in on what some of those shared characteristics are.

To my friend Christopher W. Chase:
who quoted my statement:

"WHAT PEOPLE ON THE PLANET ARE NOT "ABORINGINAL" OR "TRIBAL"? Aren't Europeans the aboriginees/tribal people/natives of Europe? Does that make them followers of Earth Religions?"

and responded with:

"As Vine Deloria once famously wrote, "Non-Aboriginal" peoples are those who have not made meaningful reciprocal religious bonds with their physical geographic landscapes. This would include Anglo-American settlers. They have only been on the American continent a few hundred years. Hardly enough time to become indigenous."

Please keep in mind that my statement was intended to show that another commenter's attempt to use the terms "aboriginal, native and tribal" to define Paganism was in appropriate. My point was that everyone on the planet has an aboriginal homeland (e.g. Europeans are from Europe).So using the term aborignee to define a Pagan doesn't work (i.e. the fact that Europeans are from Europe does not make them Pagans).

It can also be said that many of us are settlers. African-Americans have been living on American soil for 400 hundred years. I fall into that category. I am a "settler" on American soil. My ancestors were brought here under forced circumstances. Native Americans are the caretakers of this land - they are the aboriginees of America. But you can find Afican-American settlers and European settlers who are self-described Pagans.

My point is that thoughout this discourse no one has to my satifaction defined Paganism. Yet the term is used thoughout. I have seen it referred to as an "Earth religion." I have seen it referred to as idol worship. But Christianity can be shown to be about idol worship. And Christianity can be shown to be an Earth religion - based upon its practice.

irnx hswylkn lwsiroth sehgcyz txragsd hogkcazd necgftr

irnx hswylkn lwsiroth sehgcyz txragsd hogkcazd necgftr

Umm, no, Concerned, she's speaking of who you know as 'Adam' in terms of your own myths. We don't have these.

Anyway, David.

Thanks for at least apologizing. Fair enough.

Part of the problem is that amid all the hostility and conversion pressure and third-class-citizenhood Pagans get, you walking in like your Bible is 'facts' in any objective sense outside your religion that makes you someone who is supposed to come 'save us from ignorance'.... yeah, that's disrespectful.

Contempt? Yes, for your flippancy and arrogance in doing that, like I never heard that line before.

Yes.

That's contemptible.

Not where I live, but, I don't take that.

Much.

Actually, we're pretty used to it, and tolerate a lot more than do Christians who freak about us taking over Walmart when employees aren't forced to say 'Merry *Christ*mas.*

Yeah, you treat it as an *attack* when your way isn't the *only* way.

Furthermore, you treat the whole world, not as 'people you really want to learn about' but as 'missionary targets' who are apparently 'just too stupid, in your mind, to *embrace your self-referential illogic.*

Probably a few thousand posts on this here, not trying to 'understand,' but trying to *find ways to say we're not real people with a real community and real rights as Americans.

Oh, yeah, one does get testy about that.

(BTW, you're not actually that sly when you say, 'I want to understand you... Of course I can't tolerate anything but Jesus, which authority I arrogate to myself, but I want to understand, really.' No, not that subtle. )

That said, I'll hold you to your word.

You want to understand us. Act like it.

Like we're people, not points on some cosmic scoreboard.

We're *real* folks. Our faith is *just as real, * if not more so, to us, than yours is to you.

After all, we're not out there trying to convert others to 'prove' something.

Assume, like, you're walking up to a strange tribe... A tribe you don't know. A friendly tribe, actually, ...Only we heard all the conversion lines (some of us were even trained to give them before going, 'OK, this ain't right.') ....and said no.

This is not a scene from your Bible. This is real. This is people.

The subject of this 'debate' is not Jesus. It's if we should have equal treatment under government policy which guarantees freedom of religion and reasonable accommodation for religious practice.

Still wanna meet us?

Welcome.

I interpret origional sin as a metaphor for our animal nature. We must be born again as gods to temper our selfish and tribal nature.

High Priestess,

Hmmmm, where did this Adam Kadmon come from? Another name delivery from some "pretty wingie talking thingie"??

Frank Collins wrote:

"there are at least 1,000 kkk members - what is they say they are a religion - want a special kkk chaplain? there are probably more people who do not believe in god - are they a religion too?"

Christopher responds:

Mr. Collins, the racist group Klu Klux Klan, so far as I know, makes no claim to be religious, although many of its members do see themselves as Protestant Christians in good standing, so they would most likely go to white Protestant Chaplains for support. The racist group known as "Aryan Nations," on the other hand, is explicitly seperatist and religious, and calls itself "The Church of Jesus Christ Christian." They might well want their own Christian chaplains. Those who claim to be Athiests already qualify for their own VA-approved headstone marker. Its a model of an atom with a capital "A" in the middle. Secular Humanists also have their own marker. And they had theirs long before Wiccans got one. Even though these philosophies are not religious (because of a lack of ritual) they are already honored by the publically paid government in terms of their value committments. All this is readily available information, Mr. Collins, and you might want to research your rhetorical questions before you ask them, as they might not be so rhetorical after all nor reflect well on your argument.

"It is important to note that Adam does not literally represent the first human. He is the coalescence point of all the genetic diversity."

Concerned,
This is a very close idea to the original meaning in Genesis. "Adam" in Hebrew is spelled "ADM" and, literally, means "human". The Adam spoken of here is Adam Kadmon or the archetypal human being. According to traditional Kabbalah all human beings, male and female, are Adam Kadmon. "Eve" is Hebrew for "mother" and She is viewed as the archetypal "mother", so Adam and Eve did not exist was individual human beings, but represent all human beings.
I'd also add that Genesis is highly symbolic: the Garden of Eden was never on earth, the four rivers that are said to flow into the Garden are the four elements of which Pagans are very familiar, and the Fall had to happen and was planned from the start of creation. It was the only way Ain Soph (G-d) could understand and experience Itself and chose to do it in Its most perfect form...homo sapien. The Fall also represents the moment in time when we became, as a species, self-conscious and self-aware. Likewise, each of us "falls" in childhood when we attain individual self-consciousness and self-awareness. For this reason, in the esoteric forms of Judaism and Christianity, the Fall isn't seen as bad or good, but a necessity.

Bosumfo Kofi wrote:

"WHAT PEOPLE ON THE PLANET ARE NOT "ABORINGINAL" OR "TRIBAL"? Aren't Europeans the aboriginees/tribal people/natives of Europe? Does that make them followers of Earth Religions?"

Christopher responds:

As Vine Deloria once famously wrote, "Non-Aboriginal" peoples are those who have not made meaningful reciprocal religious bonds with their physical geographic landscapes. This would include Anglo-American settlers. They have only been on the American continent a few hundred years. Hardly enough time to become indigenous.

Terra,

I truly appreciate your explanation of Wicca, Paganism, etc. My intent on this question is merely for my own educational purposes. I do believe you are nice people and would hope that you could take away the assumption that I think you are mean and terrible people. I never said this, but you seem to assume it somehow.

You said,

In your post you assumed that all should follow your belief. You made blanket statements that all are in sin and all are fallen. All should follow the bible and all....etc.

This is what Christians believe. I never said you had to believe it yourself. This is purely factual Biblical information. Please try to remember that someone by the name of "Anyone" asked me about original sin and how they do not understand this. I educated them on what the Bible says about it. I will take your advice and when posting Biblical facts I will indicate that "according to the Bible". My intentions are not to offend anyone. I was simply educating someone who asked an honest question about original sin. Then I got attacked for honestly answering that question in biblical terms.

You said,

"First off get rid of your old preconcieved ideas"

I never had any preconcieved ideas. This is also assumptuous on your part. I really had no idea what Wicca was or how it is practiced. If you think that I thought you were all witches who ride brooms and cast spells, your completely wrong. I saw an ignorant "Christian" on here, Frank Collins, assuming this and with no respect and disregard for human equality he rhetorically would mention these things. I can tell he is full of hatred and misunderstanding. Please do not assume we are all like this. And if you think I am only here to convert people that is wrong as well. I am here to educate myself as well. How can we live in a peaceful society if we do not understand our differences? This is why my curiosity has led me here, to see what you believe and why. If you ask me why I believe what I believe I will give you an honest answer. Isn't that what forums like this should be about? Or should it be the continuous onslaught of "I'm right, your wrong". It seems that forums like this divide people more than unite them. I believe in debating with someone as long as it's done with respectful intent, but also shouldn't we be understanding of what are differences are as well?

I hope you can see that I am not ill-intended here. I do have faith in the God of the Bible and love to teach anyone who wants to know more. I in turn would like to know more about your faith as well.

So if it is ok, I would like to know more about Wicca from one who practices this religion. So from your description of Wicca and the likes, is it safe to assume that is really is not a systematic religion? It seems sort of mixed with polytheistic tones, along with pantheistic and sometimes monotheistic as well? And maybe a more difficult question to answer is I'm wondering how you know these gods exist? Is it from a spiritual aspect that you get confirmation? Or is there actual written testimony that you follow from ancient times? Also, since "Pagan" is an umbrella term for many religions, then could we keep this conversation on the aspect of Wicca?

Thanks Terra and you too paganplace. If I ever offended any of you, forgive me, that was not my intention whatsoever. Have a great evening

David

David,
In your post you assumed that all should follow your belief. You made blanket statements that all are in sin and all are fallen. All should follow the bible and all....etc.

Your religion is your's. You can come on here and say...according to my belief...or this is what I believe. But please, there are more then Christians on this board, and if you are going to bear witness expect to shake the dust off your feet.

And David..
Pagan is an umbrella term for many religions. Paganplace, I and a number of others on this forum are Wiccan. Wicca is one of many Pagan religions. Oh BTW- Pagan means Country Person, not unbeliever or Godless.

Wicca is a contemporary spiritual religion, based on and reviving the ancient pre-Christian religion. Wiccans believe in a divine force or power as the source of all. It is both immanent and transcendent while encompassing the whole universe. Therefore the world and all aspects within the world, "nature" and "life itself" in particular, are considered sacred.

We honor many gods...some see the gods as facets of the One Force of Creation...that is called soft Polytheism, some honor gods that they see as individual and seperate..that is Polytheism.

Wiccans believe it to be manifest in the form of a Goddess and God. As they emanate from the same source, both retain equal power, hence equal status. By manifesting the power in two deities (Goddess and God), the natural balance of opposites, cause and effect are retained, e.g. Summer/winter, light/ dark, life and death etc. Each opposite is essential to maintaining the balance and rhythm of life on earth.

There are other Pagan religions: Asstru; which is the Norse religion,they call each other Heathens...Druidism, Wicca, Strega,and others.

First off get rid of your old preconcieved ideas..they will not work. WE are nice folk, but get really tired of having to play nice with those who think it is their aim in life to convert us. As if our loved faith is not quite up to standards.

Join us in communication and in shareing.Paganplace is respectful...you need to give some also.

Blessed be,
terra

Paganplace,

I'm not sure what all your contempt is about. Someone merely asked me a question and I responded according to Christian beliefs. I never asked you if you believed them or not or even said that I was better than you as you seem to insinuate. I think that's the problem with anti-Christian rhetoric, it's based on an assumption that we think we are better than you. Sorry if some "christian" along the lines told you this, but that truly is not Biblical.

Concerning sin. You say as a pagan you think the idea of sin is what seperates you from God. How is this? I feel that acknowledging that I am no 'god' and that I am full of fault and sin is the only way to a perfect and Holy God. Otherwise it's called PRIDE.

And I've asked this on different threads but can't seem to get a clear understanding. As a pagan do you have a god or several gods or no god or what? How does that work? Do you worship something or someone? I really have no idea how paganism works. I could look it up on the internet, but I prefer to see what an actual person who practices this says about it. If you don't feel like sharing I understand.

A bit of advice paganplace. If someone is posting something about their own beliefs that was in question from someone else, it is right that you attack the person who responded honestly? You have every right not to believe in "sin" or the God of the Bible, but what I was doing was simply sharing the biblical aspect of things to a person who was simply asking a biblical question. Is that so wrong? Also, how bout leaving out the sarcasm as well...

I think that's *your* problem, sport.

You know?

Obvious sign of anger and contempt. How about a little respect?

Toward a bit of understanding, here:

"Of course no one had any choice of how we were born. Just like the color hair we have is no choice as well, so is sin. It is the sin that was brought into this world by the first man, Adam."

This is an assertion within your religion: it doesn't define others.

"We all must admit that we have broken at least one of God's laws in our time. Whether it be lying, stealing, cussing, etc. These are all things that go against what God told us not to do."

This, again, is your religious belief.

It does not logically follow that people who don't live by those laws must necessarily (or even likely) be thieves and liars or have ...umm, unrefined language, as you assert.

('Cussing' is, umm, just not seen in the same terms by Pagans in general. Sex and excreta are not seen as 'abominations' or the other things which make these words religiously-forbidden to archaic Christian mindsets: sexual aggression in the form of using sexual expressions to metaphorically attack others is seen as harmful: we don't run around saying, 'Gods Damn This Uncooperative Object,' not cause it's "forbidden," but because it *doesn't really make sense.* )

"But instead we choose to sin. This sin seperates us from God. All of mankind has sinned "All have fallen short of the glory of God." Therefore we must be redeemed."

This is where sometimes Christian rationales for things become offensive. Especially when it's considered a 'sin' in and of itself to not follow that idea in the first place.

As a Pagan, I'd say, the *idea* of 'sin' is what 'separates us from 'God.''

We don't see *people* as inherently set up by a lawgiver to be forever fallen short of being *good people.* We see our Gods as a *positive* force, helping us to live better, not condemning us if we don't match someone's idea of what someone's idea of some words are supposed to mean what's behind some idea of some God *wants.*

We're called immoral for this, but I say our 'morality' is much more direct.

You may freak out because we don't condemn certain harmless actions as taboo, but that doesn't make us *actually bad people.*

We don't think you really are, either.

Saying, "I think I'm an awful horrible spiritual criminal, (but not as bad as you,) too," doesn't mean it's right to run around calling people 'spiritual criminals,"

We're perfectly capable of understanding and respecting your beliefs about yourselves. This doesn't mean it's just when you apply them to people who have nothing to do with it.

See?

" It's not that you must admit any particular sin in order for you to be considered repentant, but confess that you are a sinner. Why would God forgive you of your sins if you could not even admit your a sinner? And how could He forgive you of your sins if you don't have faith in the one who died for you sins?"

I dunno, I could talk about it with you, but in the end, when you try to use it to say others don't have a 'real religion,' well,

I think that's *your* problem, sport.

You know?

"Gov't, society, & churches are fighting this. Churches that lose members...lose money. If the world removed a dominate religion would there be anarchy?"

That's the religious belief of some others, actually, as an *excuse* to keep people in the fold and devalue others. Even if it takes lying about them, apparently, I'm afraid.

This whole line, "Pagans believe, 'Anything goes!' It's anarchy! Chaos and depravity!'"

Just not true.

We see shades of it in people trying to rationalize us not being treated as a real and vital faith community that *does* have values, standards, and a vital, diverse, cohesiveness.

On our own terms.

But it's there.

Monotheistic religions can point to one book or another, but in fact, the *book* is used to *say* they're so much more consistent when in fact, the book means whatever a group or individual wants it to, if folks are so inclined.

So it's a spurious argument for discrimination and demonization of the innocent.

It is true that few people understand Paganism/Wicca/Old Religion. I do not believe that it is a matter of education or enlightenment or the lack there of that has lead people to prejudice. Rather that society is close-minded (and happy about it?). You do only what you are taught or told to do (since it is easier on us that way). An easy way to be accepted and popular. How many people 50 years ago thought about Wicca or converting to another religion if there were raised as the traditional Christian or Catholic? Why all of a sudden are we seeing more and more wiccans/pagans? Are we breaking the bonds of "follow the leader?" Or has it always been in our hearts just not in out heads. Trapped by a book called "The Bible."

Gov't, society, & churches are fighting this. Churches that lose members...lose money. If the world removed a dominate religion would there be anarchy? Paganism is so diverse and there is now real scare tactics (like burning in hell) if we do no uphold the laws or commandments. It is like we can do whatever we want. What gov't wants someone in office with that mind set...I mean the things that could happen (Positive Change-OMG!!). Most people in society, or at least that which I know of, prefers to conform and melt in not to stand out and be pointed at. Pagans/Wiccans should not be out expressing their values to people through a television program, chaplains, newsletters, etc., but changing the world in settle ways. We have come a long way in a short time. I think that the military recognizing Wiccans/Pagans was a huge step. Let's keep a steady pace from here.

Hello Prytan, welcome to the forum.

You say, "It does not matter who I agree or disagree with, everyone on this site is respectful and writes intelligently."

I find that the more Pagans there are on the forum, the more likely the conversation is to be respectful and intelligent.

If you want to see some nasty remarks, there are plenty over on the chuck colson thread.

David,

Way off the topic but since the issue was raised:

A real world analyses of "Adam" and original sin as being taught in many Catholic universities: (e.g. Catholic U, Notre Dame)

"The story of Adam and Eve is only symbolic.
This story was composed in the 900s BCE and functions as an etiology (explanatory myth) . In the 900s Israel was self ruling, under King David
and Solomon. The people were no longer at war and the question" Why are we not happy?" may have been asked. The short answer is sin. (Look at 1 Kings 11 for some clues into why the story depicts Eve sinning first and then tempting Adam [Solomon]).

Original Sin is symbolic of the sins of our origins -- in our
families and in the broader society, both of which affect each person
profoundly. The "sins of our origins" approach helps to account for certain
patterns of sin in particular families and societies.

Baptism does not erase original sin since the sin does not exist. The old "laundry of the soul," approach to Baptism is no longer accepted.
Infant Baptism is only a rite of initiation and commits parents and godparents to bringing up the child in a Christian home."

From additional sources:

And if there was no Adam and Eve, it follows that there was no biblical Noah. see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah's_Ark#Other_flood_stories

As per National Geographic's Genographic project:
https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/ Miracles

" DNA studies suggest that all humans today descend from a group of African ancestors who about 60,000 years ago began a remarkable journey. Follow the journey from them to you as written in your genes”.

"Adam" is the common male ancestor of every living man. He lived in Africa some 60,000 years ago, which means that all humans lived in Africa at least at that time.

Unlike his Biblical namesake, this Adam was not the only man alive in his era. Rather, he is unique because his descendents are the only ones to survive.

It is important to note that Adam does not literally represent the first human. He is the coalescence point of all the genetic diversity."

Frank Collins wrote: "there is no such thing as a religon of pagans.
they have the right to think how they want to think and act as silly as they want to act - but that does not make them a religion."

Frank, you have made this claim repeatedly. What you have never done is answer the question:
What, in your opinion, are the qualifications for a set of beliefs to be cosidered a religion?

Anyone,

Of course no one had any choice of how we were born. Just like the color hair we have is no choice as well, so is sin. It is the sin that was brought into this world by the first man, Adam.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned," (Rom. 5:12).

We all must admit that we have broken at least one of God's laws in our time. Whether it be lying, stealing, cussing, etc. These are all things that go against what God told us not to do. But instead we choose to sin. This sin seperates us from God. All of mankind has sinned "All have fallen short of the glory of God." Therefore we must be redeemed. It's not that you must admit any particular sin in order for you to be considered repentant, but confess that you are a sinner. Why would God forgive you of your sins if you could not even admit your a sinner? And how could He forgive you of your sins if you don't have faith in the one who died for you sins?

I think if you already know what Jesus taught in the four gospels (Matt, Mark, Luke, John) then I would advise you to study the book of Romans. It goes into detail about how we are justified by God's grace. We are saved by faith alone. Don't let anyone tell you that you can add to that faith to recieve salvation. If you want more insight on "faith alone" let me know.

But when it comes to original sin, this is the hereditary trait passed on to all mankind by Adam since he introduced sin into the world. God did not intend for man to sin. He gave man free-will to choose. Unfortunately we all have chosen to sin, most likely several times. I myself continue to sin unknowingly sometimes, but because I am saved and have recieved the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit convicts me (John 16:9,14) of that sin to let me know what I have done wrong instead of in my pre-salvation days when I would continue to sin without caring about it. This is of course something that cannot be explained fully because it is of spiritual nature and that is something that has to be experienced in order to understand. Any Christian will tell you the same.

So please, I urge you to continue to ask questions. I have faith in God's Word that He can and will lead you in the right path. But asking questions is good. There's a quote by theologian Ravi Zacharias that I like.

"What makes sense in my heart has to make sense in my head".

Contrary to what atheists believe, it is logical to have faith in God. It is logical because the Bible isn't just some book that tells you to believe or else. It has evidences that upon examination can make sense of it in your head. I myself could not fully accept Christ with just a "blind faith", I needed more than that to convince me and God sure didn't let me down.

Please, any other questions feel free. This is what God wants me to do. To help guide people to salvation which is by faith in Jesus.

David
What sin am I admitting. Is it the orginal sin of being born in sin? Where is that in the bible that we are born in sin? I just don't get it. I didn't have any choice in how I was born.

SU,

Actually the word "religion" is in the Bible.

Acts 25:19
Acts 26:5
1 Timothy 5:4
James 1:26

And sin is a disease that we all need a crutch for. And that crutch is Jesus. The only healer of the disease of sin.

You asked if Jesus died for your sins and your forgiven then why is there a Judgement Day?

Because your not forgiven until you repent and have faith. Faith alone is Jesus is what saves you. Eph 2:8-9, Rom 5:1. This faith includes the faith that Jesus died, was buried and resurrected on the third day. Repentance is admittance that you are a sinner and in need of God's forgiveness. With a true repentance and faith in Jesus you are saved from eternal seperation from God, known as hell.

I hope that one day you will be saved too upon accepting Christ. If you have any other questions regarding the Bible, Jesus, Christianity, please ask away. Take care.

http://www.milpagan.org/media/statistics.html is the cited source of the # of Pagans in the US military. A Defense Department reference would be the only real source of accurate information.

But let us do the math anyway: 4300 Pagans/6702 military bases (http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/intervention/2004/01bases.htm) or less than one Pagan per base on average.

There are probably more Pagans working for Wallmart. Maybe they should add a few Pagan chaplins to the "welcomers".

And there are probably a heck of a lot more atheists in the military. Another positive for atheism. No chaplins required!!

And with so few Pagans in the military, why are we discussing this issue?????

P.S. As per another commentator on another page, the word "religion" is mentioned in the NT a number of times. In Acts twice if I remember correctly and once in James' epistle.

The Wiccan Rede says it in 8 words that it takes christians 10 commandments to say:"An it harm none,do what ye will." This is America,last time I checked, founded on freedom of religion. People, read and educate yourself before condemning something you don't understand. Organized religions are nothing but man-made rules for people who need crutches to get through life.If that's what they need and want, good for them, as long as they're not knocking on my door trying to jam their beliefs down my throat. By the way, the word religion isn't even in the Bible. And maybe one of you christians can answer this: if Jesus died for my sins and I am forgiven, why is there going to be a Judgement Day when we all have to line up to atone??

Hey Frank Taylor:

Some of us have noticed the stains left on the wall and the nail holes. There's lots of flavors of Jello and several sizes of nails. Correct, they are all doing the same thing no matter. Then comes the one dumb enough to examine the holes and ponder the source of the nails.

That would be http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul from which comes the most common jelling agent used to make the Jello.

The motivation of the Jello salesmen is obvious. The big money goes to those who lead the multitudes to hell. They call Devil God but that does not make Devil God. We can reasonably confident it makes Devil happy. Devil has a huge bank account. He got the money from those making "gifts to God" and collected by His agents who use it to spread His truths.

PAGANPLACE, you still haven't answered my question: What motivates you? I know it's not money,, like all the rest.

FYI: Wiccnas are to Paganism as Baptists are to Christianity. It's just a subset of the whole. Some pagans are Wiccan. The smart ones aren't.

I get so tired of all these people thinking take have to be judging and putting us down us who choose a different path. It was refreshing to see you Dr. educated on who we actually are instead of just saying cruel things. My best friend and mentor is a conservative Christian. She's never thrown it in my face and said mean things like most. When I go visit stay with her for a week here or there I always enjoy going to church with her. I don't agree with all they teach but still like the people there. I have a Wiccan uncle who is totally turned off by all Christians. Because of Leslie I know all Christians are not judgmental and cruel the way may unfortunately are. I can't blame my uncle with our family always throwing the hole he and I are going to hell and are worshiping the devil thing in our faces. Years of that cruelty wear on a person. I think many Christians need to reminded Jesus lived a life of love towards all not just the ones who believed what he did. I have alot of respect for you Dr. You have gone above and beyond to learn about others instead of just judging rudely.

Most of these posts are trying to nail Jello to a wall, huffing and puffing about whose religion is 'better'.

It really doesn't matter what you believe. What matters is what you do.

You can use your religion (or lack thereof) as an excuse to be a jerk, or you can use it as a way to motivate you to do something good. Everything else is just mental masturbation.

John says:

"Human sacrifice anyone, the ancient Celtic pagans were pretty good at it, as were the Aztecs."

What is the distinction between the examples you provide and the sacrifice for the salvation of all humankind performed by Yeshua ( renamed Jesus Christ)?

Wicca is NOT an old religion, but rather a 20th century invention that owes its origins more to Victorian imagination than to ancient practices.

Human sacrifice anyone, the ancient Celtic pagans were pretty good at it, as were the Aztecs.

Anonymous:

In response to your statement:
"But, again, Paganism isn't too concerned with the explanation of how our relationship with the gods work. People who become serious about Paganism spend time learning how to *do* Paganism, not what to believe about it."

First I cannot speak for Paganist as I am not one. However, I do agree that many traditional religions seem to be preoccupied with the practice as opposed to a believe system. It has been my experience also that if you do not ask then you remain without the knowledge of the underlying belief system. It does not mean it does not exist. You just have to search for it within Paganism just as I had to persist in searching for it within the Akom. Knowlege of the practice without the Wisdom is incomplete.

PaganPlace

First, I am not picking on you. Peace be unto you. I just think we need to be clear about the use/misuse of terminology.

Your following statement is of concern:
"This [Earth Religion] is usually taken to include all Pagans and most 'aboriginal' and tribal peoples"

But Paganplace, WHAT PEOPLE ON THE PLANET ARE NOT "ABORINGINAL" OR "TRIBAL"? Aren't Europeans the aboriginees/tribal people/natives of Europe? Does that make them followers of Earth Religions?

An the use of the term "idol worshippers" is not useful to describe Earth Religions. Other than very few religions, most spiritual paths have a symbol though which God, a diety or an ancestor is worshipped. Let's look at Catholicism and all its saint statues, the Holy Cross, and the Dove as a symbol of the Holy Spirit. So is the Akom of Ghana any more an Earth Religion than Catholicism? I guess not. Let's look at what people do - not what they say they do.

Peace

>From what I can tell, the Pagans/pagans do not have *any* formal belief requirements, so really, there is no basis within paganism to *tell* someone that they are doing something "wrong" if they disrespect others. It's all personal opinion, and anything goes, even interpersonal disrespect if that's what somone Wills. Yes?<

Various specific Pagan systems propose various guidelines for action. My own path thinks in terms of 'virtues' - such as discernment, inspiration, courage, honor, diligence, etc. Wicca begins with the very simple 'witches rede' (rede means advice) - "If it harm none, do what you will". Just as in most every human ethical system, respecting others is a core principle. Much Pagan philosophy holds that the divine is present in us all, so how can we choose to disrespect any being?

But, again, Paganism isn't too concerned with the explanation of how our relationship with the gods work. People who become serious about Paganism spend time learning how to *do* Paganism, not what to believe about it. We learn to meditate, to do ritual, to hear the voice of the divine in our own lives. There is a body of fairly common ritual and teaching tradition in neopaganism - a web-search on 'Pagan ritual' or, more specifically 'Wiccan ritual' (to focus on one 'denomination' of Paganism) will show you a nearly universal set of methods, even as explanations vary widely. It is the methods that define the path, not the beliefs.

Dear PAGANPLACE:

“Btw, I think CS Lewis is neat, he just tends to *appropriate* anything he thinks was good about our Pagan ancestors, give Christianity the credit for us, and then say how horrible he thinks Paganism is.”

The more Christian people who understand the discipline of thought exercised by C.S. Lewis, Paul, and Augustine, the easier it will be to discuss these things with others holding different views. All of them came from other backgrounds, and understood them well without self righteousness.

I believe that any Christian who persecutes others in the name of Jesus Christ must ask himself who it is that he is really following just then. I think a careful look might reveal the shadow of Wormwood sitting on his shoulder egging him on, with Screwtape approving in the background thinking of the meal this one will make. Metaphorically, of course. :-)))

PaganPlace
Thank you for your thoughtful comments.

Are you sure of your definition of Earth Religion?

You said "what's usually meant by the phrase 'Earth Religions' (short for Earth-centered religions:) is as a blanket term for those which are not centered around an external Deity revealed through words, that created the Earth and people as a means to some other end, but rather, those religions which find the Divine *in* Earth, and possibly also beyond. :)"

Well, I would differ with that. In the Akom tradition the first name that we call out when pouring libation is to the Supreme One and secondly to Mother Earth. We find the Divine in Mother Earth - that which was created - as well in the Creator. Our belief system is not centered on Mother Earth. Rather it is centered around an understanding that the Divine can be found in the Creator as well as all things created - Mother Earth being one of those things. That there is a spark of the Divine within all things created. In fact the word Nyame (an Akan word for Creator)can be literally translated to mean "nothing exist except for Nyame". In other words while there are many things, the one underlying principle is Nyame. So that would not make us an Earth Religion according to your definition. But do we have reverence for Mother Earth? Yes, as well as the Oceans, the mountains etc because we recognize that Nyame has many faces.

And I would think that the belief system that I just described can be found amoung Native Americans and other ancient traditions. These traditions do not ascribe to an Earth Religion as you define Earth Religion. As I said earlier, it is the labels and misunderstandings asscociated with these labels that divide us.

It appears to me that "Pagans" like to "apostrophize".

Dear Frank:

“here are at least 1,000 kkk members - what is they say they are a religion - want a special kkk chaplain?

The KKK was a racist terrorist group that wrapped itself up in the Christian community. They are no better than Al Queda blowing up the WTC. They have no place in the discussion going on here.

“there is no such thing as a religon of pagans.”

Several thousand years of history, and hundreds of millions of adherents throughout the ages are against you on that one. For that matter St. Paul is against you on that one.

“they have the right to think how they want to think and act as silly as they want to act - but that does not make them a religion.”

If they seek and worship God (or the Gods for that matter) they are a religion. You may think it is the wrong one, but they are a religion. For God's sake we call Scientology a religion and L. Ron Hubbard explicitly started it as a tax dodge. You don't get to say who has a religion, they do.

“there are probably more people who do not believe in god - are they a religion too?”

The Atheist who boldly asserts that God does not exist is practicing religion. So yes, they are.

The first Amendment of the constitution says:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

Your neighbors on this blog are availing themselves of their rights under the Free Exercise Clause. All serious religious people should jealously guard the Free Exercise rights of others. Jews should protect Christians, Christians should protect Moslems, and yes we all should protect Wiccans. Free Exercise is one thing we should ALL be able to agree on.

BTW there are Anti-Theists who want to forbid religious expression in the “public square” under a perversion of the concept of “Separation of Church and State”. So start a principled and systematic application of the Free Exercise Clause now. It is the right thing to do, and it will, in the end, protect your own right of Free Exercise.

Robert Gilman,

UU stands fdor Unitarian Universalist.

The Unitarians were originally a Christian splinter group that split with Mainstream Christianity over the doctrine of the triune godhead. Unitarians said God was one, not three in one.

The Universalists believed that a loving merciful god would never condemn anyone to hell - that salvation was available to all.

SOme years back, the two merged to form Unitarian Universalism. Modern UU churches use the Bible as one of many sources of wisdom and guidance. The pastor at the UU church I attend pulls sermon material from such diverse sources as the Bible, the Q'ran, the blues, jazz, Harry Potter books, Kurt Vonnegut, and Dr. Suess - to name but a few. Most UU churches are also heavily invlved in community service, just like other churches are. The one I attend has an ongoing grocery collection for a local soup kitchen, as well as a group of people who travel to New Orleans on a regular basis to work on houses that still need to be gutted and rebuilt as a result of Katrina. When the offertory is taken, the cash portion is often split with such organizations as the food bank, the battered women's shelter, or Habitat for Humanity. The church is also a Welcoming COngregation, which means that we don't simply "tolerate" our BLGT members, we are actively affirming of them.