All Comments (37)

First there was never a Palestinain nation. Under Byzantium it was a Judaeo Christian enclave, It was Conquered by Mohammed's immediate heirs in the mid 700's. It hadn't been more than a province in someone elses country since the Romans kicked the Jews out in 70AD.

Back before the 6 Day War no one in fact called themselves Palestinians and the Name didn't spread widely until Those we now call Palestinians tried to kill the king of Jordan for the peculiarly Arab/leftist crime of not hating the Jews enough kicked them out of Jordan.

Oops, that should have been addressed to Speed123. A Hermit and Speed blend together after awhile.

A Hermit,

Take some time to read my comments on Islam. Typically, I criticize the foundation of said religion e.g. their belief in "pretty wingy talking thingies and a similar belief in devils, the "demons of the demented". Their operating manual is also the subject of much of my criticism of Islam since it gives the "koranic" crazies free license to hunt you and me down for any type of criticism making said manual and said followers very dangerous to our well being.

As with Christians, atheists and other cults, Muslims are typically bred, born and brainwashed to believe their way is the correct way. Unfortunately the Muslim way is typically in the form of "death to unbelievers" unlike other cults which is something many commentators to include myself mention at length with good reason. I was a bred, born and brainwashed Catholic until I was finally "Crossanized" into the wonderful world of Reality.

And please note, I do not criticize one's right to complain about powerful lobbies. I do object, however, to criticizing individual members of a religion because of their religion, their names and their service on behalf of our country.

Anonymous that liberal koolaid is rotting your brain.

No right of return for those whose ancestors almost all left voluntarily thinking they would be handed what the Jews had built over the last sixty odd years and who if let back in would almost 80% furnish more suicide bombers and make the Jews second class citizens in their own country? I would think not!

Would you want your neighborhood inundated with convicted mass murderers?

that last one was me.

I love the hypocricy of Concerned...

At one point he condems legitimate criticism of the politics/lobbying of a powerful group/religion - and says that such criticism = hate.

On the other hand, Concerned posts hateful comments about Muslims all over these forums and sterotypes an entire religion of one billion people.

Talk about a double standard!

GAryd:
So "Israel/JEws just grabbed a chunk of land" as easily as if u would grab a hamburger!!! So the destruction of the nation of Palestine and ethinically cleansed of its original owners,the imposing of an apartheid regime on the Palestinins for the past sixty years-all this is just "grabbing a chunck of land."
Look, Palestine has been an Arab land since the Cananites-who Arab tribes and long before the jews who have no historical ties to Palestine-essentially mythical or manufacured at best.

Speed123,

You slander yourself. And you have the audacity to paste yourself as "even-keeled" and "deep-thinking"? Your KKK and Nazi membership cards say otherwise.

Concerned,

ALL faiths and ethnic groups can be critized for their politics and actions - despite what you and Abe Foxman say. Stop with the slander.

Viejita,

great post. I get a bit worked up at times but I am proud to be grouped with even-keeled and deep thinkers such as Mary C and yourself.
;-)

Speed123,

I thought most of the filth of anti-Semitism and Aryanism was buried after WWII. Apparently not!!!

I know nothing about Pentecostals, but I always thought the Baptists were Calvinists.
Twenty-five years ago I was in a wedding where the matron of honor was an Episcopal priest and the other bridesmaid Catholic -- the third was me, at that time Congregational. The M-of-H said, in response to our discussion about what in the service was different to what we were used to, "If Vatican Two had been a few hundred years sooner, we'd all here still be Catholics."
I don't know whether or not she was right, but part of her point definitely resonated. The Catholic Church today and the Church of even fifty years ago are very different. Different enough that folks as diverse as Speed123, Mary Cunningham, Ann O. and myself -- as different as Karol Wotyla and Joseph Ratzinger, as different as Anthony Burgess, Conan O'Brien and Mel Gibson -- are happy to be called Catholics.

To believe that you are saved is an Old Testament form of theology and places no emphasis on the free choice that God endowed man with at creation.

To be "saved" regardless of actions or to consider yourself or people "choosen" is the theology discredited by the New Testament and the message of Christ - i.e. believe and follow me.

That is a call that we can accept or refuse.

Vierita,

Between the Pentecostals, their Southern Baptist offshoots and the Roman Catholics all with a few exceptions are works theologians for whom as I said Chrsits death on the Cross allows them to earn their salvation.

There are by the way Baptist out of the Refomation through Zwingli, but the Southern Baptist trace their lineage -when they'll admit to it - came from Irwin and John Nelson Darby whose notes were used by Schofield when he did his Bible translation. One should also note that Charles Stanley is an exception to this and I'm fairly certain that there are others as the Southern Baptist aren't nearly as monolithic as either the Pentacostals or the Catholics.

The Chief argument of all the reformation theologies was that salvation was God's work not man's.

"open the gates of hell" The gates of hell in the middle east have been open for a very long time now. Old Bushy Boy only stoked the fires a little more, thats all. The Clinton Administration did everything in their power to ignore the hell brewing over there. Even when the flames spread out to take american lives. The older Bush stopped short of putting out the fires.
Every president we have had has either ignored the middle east, placated them, or tried to use force. Most of the time that force was applied by Israel.
We could leave Iraq in the morning, but the problems are still there. But even bigger now in so many different ways. Forget this stuff about saying "I was wrong, or sorry." The problems are real. We can hide out over here for a few more years, but the cancer will spread to us eventually. I don't think it matters if we "make nice" with them or fight them. Here in america people are at each others throats because their party is right. Over there they are all united with one goal, importing radical islam. So whats moral about any of that? Nothing.

"Frankly other than the Pope there isn't generally a spits worth of difference between you theologically."
Between whom? You're correct that as Christians we share certain essential beliefs. I think Rev. Thistlethwaite is UCC, which is theologically Calvinist and shares a lot of history with the Baptists. (I was going to say theologically similar to the Baptists but I'm not real strong on Baptist theology.)
Nowadays the biggest differences between Christian denominations tend to be structural rather than theological, to have more to do with practices than with core beliefs. Make no mistake, though, the theological differences are significant.
Speed, this is the one we agree on...where are ya when I needja?

That from a Roman Catholic that was supposed to be spoonfed his theolgy what little of it he got from the Vatican. And who wasn't even allowed a Bible in his native tongue until John 23 figured out that arguing with the fait accompli that was the printing press was by the mid sixties a bit pointless.

"Frankly other than the Pope there isn't generally a spits worth of difference between you theologically"

Obviously you know jack about theology...

Wrong, but not suprisingly so. I am a Protestant who still protests. The Southern Baptist and the Pentecostals -we are all if we're Christian regardless of denomination supposed to be evengelicals - haven't been around long enough to be called Protestants. And Frankly other than the Pope there isn't generally a spits worth of difference between you theologically. Both of you tend to think Christ died so that you could impress God with your righteousness.

ah, he is an evangelical...I knew it!

The pope is the leader of the TRUE Christian church and its madate from the bible...not your "mega" churches and southern snake oil hucksters.

What excuse? It was a simple starement of fact.

Thanks to 9/11 we could no longer politically afford to sit in Iraq indefinitely and wait for Saddam and his even crazier progeny to die.

We didn't start a war we ended one. What part of we were still at war with Saddam Hussein did you not get? Good Grief we were already shooting at him again under Clinton?

That is one leftist lie that needs to die now. And the pope being human is wrong. For that matter he was wrong when he took the title and tried to usurp the position of Christ as mediator between God and man.

neocon loverboy Gary states:

"thanks to 9/11 we could no longer afford to sit in Saudi Arabia indefinitely and be a target for what ever nutbar happened to pop up next."

Thanks to those who use 9/11 as an excuse to:

...start pre emptive imperial, UNJUST (the pope said so) war.

You have given the neo con (revoluationaries and lefties with a hawkish streak) an excuse to destroy entire countries and then institue radical economic reforms not seen since the Soviets....

You have reduced the rights of US citizens while expanding the powers of the executive.

etc. etc. etc.

First there was never any choice in the war with Saddam.

The sanction REgime was collapsing. France needing money to feed here socialist regimes insatiable demand for cash was all too willing to sell Saddam what ever weapons he wanted again and the Russain and Germans weren't much if any behind.

To have left Saddam with 6-9 divisions to face the 1.5 to 2 divisions the Gulf states and the Saudis could muster would have been unconscionable. Yet thanks to 9/11 we could no longer afford to sit in Saudi Arabia indefinitely and be a target for what ever nutbar happened to pop up next.

The author of this article is correct in her facts, logical in her deductions, and thoughtful in her suggestions.

It is troubling to see some of the posts in response. Anti-Semitism, and other such bloodthirsty rants, fall far short of the author's tone and content, and of the geo-political and theological realities of our times.

This President, his Vice President, his former and current Secretary of Defense, his National Security Advisor, Director of the C.I.A., head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and all it's members,
the Secretary of State, Ambassador to the United Nations, et.al. are Christians, one and all.
That's just fine with me, and I don't hold them to task because they are.

None of these esteemed politicians and their host of advisers have been bullied, hood-winked or manipulated by Israel or the Jewish people.

This administration CHOSE to go to war, and did so despite significant warnings of a debacle to come. They did so in a rush to judgement. They went after the wrong people and the wrong nation state. They did so by deceitful rationale and false public pronouncements. They did so even though their mostly Christian allies in Europe and elsewhere warned against it. They did so regardless of the pleas and prayers of Pope John II, Nobel Laureat Arch Bishop Desmond Tutu and countless Christian religious ethicists, here
and abroad.

http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=action.ethicists_statement

Wars of Choice are not decreed or condoned by G`d.

Wars of Choice are not an expression of true Christian values or doctrine.

Religious slander is not valid Christian ethos.

"Flame throwers" of any faith or stripe do a terrible disservice to mankind.

This war was foisted upon us, managed by a totally inept government and it's delusional leaders, and has brought great suffering into the world. Their repentence and our forgiveness are due. Indeed, they are long past due.

Thank you, Reverend Thistlethwaite.

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/whitehurst.php?articleid=3842

"Israeli Chauvinism? How so? They've only been caught up in a war for there survival going back at least to the fall of the Roman empire."

Love that ethnocentric victim narrative, it does wonders!

So much sillinbess so little time.

Israeli Chauvinism? How so? They've only been caught up in a war for there survival going back at least to the fall of the Roman empire.

NOw they've grabbed a chunk of land which they have strong historical ties to - at least as good as that of the So-called Palestinians who were in fact Jordanians prior to 1967 - going back sev eral thousand years.

Israeli schools teach tolerance. Palestinian schools teach death to israel. Who is the agressor here?

As for the rest of the statements about the war.
All I can say is the On faith Forun has some of the dumbest leftist I've ever encountered. Those at the other politics site I go to off and on look like Albert Einstein compared to you people.

So much sillinbess so little time.

Israeli Chauvinism? How so? They've only been caught up in a war for there survival going back at least to the fall of the Roman empire.

NOw they've grabbed a chunk of land which they have strong historical ties to - at least as good as that of the So-called Palestinians who were in fact Jordanians prior to 1967 - going back sev eral thousand years.

Israeli schools teach tolerance. Palestinian schools teach death to israel. Who is the agressor here?

As for the rest of the statements about the war.
All I can say is the On faith Forun has some of the dumbest leftist I've ever encountered. Those at the other poiticds site I go to off look like Albert Einstein compared to you people.

Speed123

Finally, someone who has opened their eyes. It's refreshing to here someone with the correct analysis for once.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

The objectives of the Israeli state (and lobby here in the US) is to remove potenial threats in the region and Saddam was the closest, major threat.

Even now, the media and some pols like Lieberman and McCain are calling for action against Iran in the same nature of those that were brough against Iraq.

Read "securing the realm" (google it) by Feith and Perle and other Zionists to get a picture of the plan to "secure the middle east"

Support of Israel is no longer in US interests and has not been so since the Cold War. This detrimental policy has only been made worse by the Neo Cons and their push for dominance through violent action in the region.

As for intellectuals, Judaism is both a religion and an ethnicity...so you can be secular/atheist and still be Jewish or support policy the is good for the Jewish state.

The Neo Con movement is absolutely one that is Jewish in its founding and current makeup.

Speed
I think you let a lot of so-called Christians off the hook if you think this part of our mideast policy (i.e. Iraq) has any advantage for Israel. Personally I think Israel would be a lot better off without most of their allies from the Christian right, who enable Israel's worst impulses re settlements and cultural chauvinism.
The fact that so much of the intelligentsia here and elsewhere happens to be Jewish (usually of a secular bent, BTW) has more to do with the value some parents put on education, and the experience of being a scapegoat for anything that happens. Look at Gaza: Israel got out, and they are still being blamed for what happens. Most of my Jewish relatives are still left-wing, pacifist Democrats. So I guess blaming Judaism for the neocons would be like blaming Catholicism for abortion clinic bombers....
But I'll happily back you up on the Catholic bishops being against this war from the start. Maybe our long history, including the crusades and the inquisition, has made us a little more wary than the Robertson-Falwell-Graham types have yet learned to be. Plus we have a clear doctrine of just war -- AND THIS ACTION NEVER QUALIFIED.

Exactly, Viejita.

Most on these boards today are pointing fingers at "Christians" for this war (a typical tactic used by the left).

It is undisputed - though never spoken in the media - that neo conservatism was a distinctly Jewish intellectual movement. Feith is Jewish.

I am stating that it is time to look a little deeper and you will see the influece of Israel in particular and Judiasm in general (both in policy making and in punditry of the media).

Neo Cons are unapologetic because they believe in moral particularism:

Who was this war good for?

Their friends in corporations and for Israel. (in theory at least)

The question is this: "Some political leaders say we need to get out of Iraq now. Others say we are obligated to stay and try to restore civil order and authority. What's the moral position? Is there one?"

Susan, are we morally obligated to stay and try to restore civil order and authority?

I'm saving this part: "When the devil tempts Jesus in the wilderness, what is the temptation? The devil tempts Jesus with political conquest. “And the devil took him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, and said to him, ‘To you I will give all this authority and their glory…’” Jesus, you may recall, said ‘no.’ The American people and their leaders didn’t have the wisdom to say no before." As good a description of hubris as I've ever seen in a Christian context.

Speed
This decision was made by Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld. Last time I looked, they were not Jews. The Christian right supports neo-conservative strategies because they are looking to bring on Armageddon at the expense of Israel as much as any other non-Christian nation. The Judaism of Wolfowitz, Perle and Feith (Is he even Jewish? The name sounds Scottish) is as relevant as the fact that John Woo (of torture-memo fame) is Asian -- or that Alberto Gonzalez is Latino.
We are truly a diverse nation, with arrogance and abuse of power coming from all ethnicities.

That the OT has not been destroyed is evident by the teachings and moral particularism of the NeoCons.

This is a Jewish intellectual movement (started by Leo Strauss, Irving Kristol and Norman Podhoretz) and it was in the interest of Israel to take out Saddam as he was a long term threat.

Wolfowitz, Feith, Perle and other planners and cheerleaders in the media did not let their people down.

Let's see what they can do about Iran...

YO-YO:

The New Testament is here yet the Old Testament has NOT been destroyed. God clearly works in mysterious ways. God was there in person and pitched in when the chips were down at Jericho. Where would the Israelites be without God?

Dogs chase cars without thinking about what they would do should they manage to catch one. I agree, the administration did likewise in Iraq. Flat nosed dogs happen when parked cars are chased. Again, the war in Iraq fits the bill. No, not bill, George. OK Dick or somebody.

We're getting there, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." Next stop, "Calling Devil God does not make Devil God but does make Devil happy."

God spoke to GWBush to go attack Iraq.
When God tells you to do something,you just do it.
You don't ask questions.You don't need a plan.
With God on your side success is inevitable.
Don't be misled by what appears to be a total catastrophe in Iraq. God knows what he is about.
Be patient; haven't you heard?The Lord works in mysterious ways his wonders to perform.
Lord knows that in order to create something new,you first have to destroy the old.
The destruction of old Iraq is near completion.
Soon we will see a new Christian Iraq rise from the ashes of the old.And there will be celebrations of great joy and love across the land
for ever and ever amen.
We live in magical times.

What a timely question as I learned yesterday that a good family friend was killed in Iraq Friday when his F16 crashed after takeoff.

I liked this post by Dr. Thistlethwaite. I appreciate her honesty. But I don't agree with her statement that Americans need to stop thinking it's all about us. I don't feel that it's all about us, and I'm quite embarassed at how this administration is handling the situation. Now what do we do about this mess?