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ltbmcza quhxntbry avpe nsca jkwh okqur yfqawiszt

To E Favorite: No. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

T. Baum -- hallucinating, then.

To E Favorite: Literally. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

"I have met God, the whole Trinity. I have also met satan."

Tom Baum - do you mean that literally or figuratively?

Actually I do not have to read Exodus to find out about God because I have met God, the whole Trinity. I have also met satan. We have free will and the whole Old Testament is really about God forming a people and making it safe enough down here to become one of us, might sound strange but that is the way it is. God gave us a choice and we chose satan to be the ruler of this world of course He knew we would because that is all a part of His Plan, where do you think free will came from? A lot of people that believe in God and even happen to know His Name, which is "I AM Who AM", do have a very small concept of Him, the way I figure if you are going to believe in God , you might as well believe in something a little bigger than yourself. As you might know the Old Testament Moses said that someone like me would come along, well here I am. As God said I will send the simple to confound the wise, His Plan is simple but only He knows how it all weaves together. God also said "My ways are not your ways, My thoughts are not your thoughts", how true. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum. PS God wins total victory for the entire human race, a tie is unacceptable.

Where is Sen. Arnold Vinick when we need him? The fictional Republican presidential nominee on “West Wing” said it best:
"I don't see how we can have a separation of church and state in this government if you have to pass a religious test to get in this government. I want to warn everyone in the press and all the voters out there. If you demand expressions of religious faith from politicians you are just begging to be lied to. They won't all lie to you, but a lot of them will, and it will be the easiest lie they ever have to tell to get your votes. Every day until the end of this campaign I'll answer any question anyone has on government. But if you have a question on religion, please, go to church."

So? What's your point? Are you just figuring that out?

Now it's clear that national Democratic candidates are just as much hypocritical religious panderers as the Republicans.

Both groups are only interested in political power, not in anything having to do with spirituality.

God-Awed:
You can take a dump in a box, wrap it up and put a bow on it, but it's still a dump.

Where did you dig up your trash theology? Who passed on this counterfeit Christianity to you? You are a disgrace to all people who seek to be Christians. It is people like you who give us all a bad name. It is people like you who have wrecked the reputation of Christianity.

Please spare me the Biblical quotes that you have picked and cobbled together, to support your own personal delusions and bigotry. If you want to quote the Bible, then quote all of it, not just the parts that you find con-veeeen-ient!

RON PAUL's RECORD SPEAKS FOR ITSELF:

Brief Overview of Congressman Paul's Record
He has never voted to raise taxes.
He has never voted for an unbalanced budget.
He has never voted for a federal restriction on gun ownership.
He has never voted to raise congressional pay.
He has never taken a government-paid junket.
He has never voted to increase the power of the executive branch.

He voted against the Patriot Act.
He voted against regulating the Internet.
He voted against the Iraq war.

He does not participate in the lucrative congressional pension program.
He returns a portion of his annual congressional office budget to the U.S. treasury every year.

Congressman Paul introduces numerous pieces of substantive legislation each year, probably more than any single member of Congress.

IF YOU WANT TO SEE AMERICA REMAIN FOR AMERICAN's
VOTE RON PAUL:
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

ITS SO SIMPLE....EVEN A CHILD CAN MAKE THIS DECISION....

RON PAUL

RON PAUL

RON PAUL

FOR HOPE, FOR SANITY, FOR PRESIDENT.

God Awd.

Ponder the words of Einstein...they just may help you.They sure helped me.

"A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate,of the manifestations of the profoundest
reason and the most radiant beauty,which are only
accessible to our reason in their most elementary
forms-it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude;in this sense,and in this alone,I am a deeply religious man.
I cannot conceive of a god who rewards and punishes his creatures,or has a will of the type of which we are conscious in ourselves.
An individual who should survive his physical death
is also beyond my comprehension,nor do I wish it otherwise;such notions are for the fears or absurd
egoism of feeble souls."
Albert Einstein
"The World as I see it"
page 5.

The scripture says "Let US make man in OUR own image. There is no trinity hoax.

Try reading Exodus. It has a very good description of god and it's not a trinity, pure love or anything of the sorts but rather a demon that lives in fire and is so puny it can't get anything it wants without help from people, like you.

Check out the hoax buster web site. It will clue you in about god.

If it is about religion, then really the only true religion is taking care of widows and orphans. If it is about God, then I don't know what everyone keeps talking about because some don't believe there is a God and the ones that do believe in God don't know didly-squat about Him. Whether you believe it or not God is Pure Love and a Trinity. It God was anything like what so many people that call themselves christians say, you would have to be completely heartless to believe in Him and to be thankful for Him. Thank God that God is Who He is and not the piece of garbage that some people think. God has a Plan and It is better than a lot of people think that He is capable of having and It is better than a lot of people seem to want Him to have. The Pharisees and scribes of Jesus's day have nothing on the Pharisees and scribes of today. God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

One thing all progressives and atheists can agree upon is that that Martin Luther King was so particularly despicable because of his brazen conflation of politics and religious belief.

I say let the liberal Democrats pay the price for their heathen PC ideologies and insufficent vigilance against the evils of radical Islam in the 2008 Presidential election.

Mr Mark,

Thank you.

The devil is making the rounds today in God Awed.

I am not gay and I wouldn't have an abortion, but I will not hate others who (not by choice) are gay and who have abortions. So God Awe, get your hateful rantings off these boards. BTW, I believe in God and my God tells me to be loving and peaceful.

Andrea -

Thanks for your comment. I, too, disagree with the columnist's assertion that I as a liberal believe that religion has any place in shaping public policy.

6-plus years of bush, his Xian cheerleaders and his pseudo-theocracy, and I think we all know what happens when religion has a place in shaping public policy.

That Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite could make her statement is stunning in both its breadth and its ignorance.

That you called her on it is welcome.

"The United States is the most religious pluralistic nation in the world."

Is it???

You wouldn't know it by looking at popular culture or the media. The U.S., at least in terms of how it likes to represent itself, is overwhelming "Christian". While there may be other practicing religions here in this union of 50 states, most of them are virtually invisible. Islam has visibility in the U.S. these days, but it's mainly out of fear and xenophobia.

I would also go further to say that the U.S. is excellent at expressing its religion, but not so good at converting that expression into true moral actions (relieving oppression, providing better health care and education for all, and the like). After all, it took the U.S. 188 years (from 1776 to 1964) to acknowledge that African-Americans have the same rights as everyone else ... how "Christian" is that??

Very good, Brendan.

I think one thing you miss here, Awed, is that the actual state of affairs is *not* what your religious leaders tell you: that faith is excluded from public life by 'God-hating atheists.'

In fact, it's become almost *impossible* for non-Christians to be elected to public office, (it seems somehow there's been instituted some of the very 'religious tests' for office that our Founding Fathers strove so carefully to avoid. ) ...non-(conservative, even,) Christians are the ones being vilified, excluded, defamed, and marginalized.

Disenfranchised, even.

Bush said he believed his God told him to go ahead and invade Iraq with no plan...

He's not saying that now, is he?

I agree with Brendan, if someone's faith motivates them to try and improve the world, great, but this must be done in terms of reason, not unthinking religious commands.

Hating homosexuals enough to accuse them of some conspiracy to destroy your God by *gasp* having a democratic voice in their own goverment, then saying 'This isn't hating people, it's hating this thing we made up called 'Sin,' ' ...maybe that flies in some churches, but it's no way to run a country.

Reason and faith don't have to be in opposition: frankly, if your religion makes you want to do something not-rationally-justifiable with government, then I'd think that's a sure sign religion is overstepping its bounds in a free and democratic society.

People of faith are entitled to their belief in God, of course, but that statement does not address at all the appropriate uses and context for those beliefs to be expressed and used.

For example, we expect courts to make their decisions based on the law and the facts ... NOT based on the religious inclinations of the judge. Similarly we expect corporate officers and directors to take decisions that are in the best interests of the shareholders .. NOT based on their religious inclinations. I do not see any reason why we should "tolerate" legislative or executive governmental action to be taken on the basis of personal religious beliefs.

Of course, that doesn't mean public servants have to leave their faith behind them, but it does mean that policies have to be articulated solely in terms that are rational, debated solely on those terms, and adopted (or not) on their rational merits. It is fine if a legislator or president is motivated by her faith to reduce poverty -- it is not fine for a piece of legislation or executive action to have its basis in such beliefs apart from a thorough and independent rational vetting.

We should not allow legislators and our executive branch to operate according to personal religious convictions rather than the common playing field of rational discourse and more than we would tolerate a judge making a decision in a legal case based on her own reading of the Book of Judges.

AT: I never tire of telling the better class of people, the experts how good they truly are. The Bible has been used to con people for many moons with this one voice, (in the winderness) finally identifying it's source documents.

I don't have a position to promote or defend. As far the web site, there's several others I prefer but I can't seem to ever get their links straight.

http://www.hoax-buster.org is real simple and I can add /sellyour soul with no difficulty at all. That web site has the truth that withers in the face of the "Bigges Lie Ever Told."

Yo Yo,

I am glad we can agree on one thing and I do respect you as a person made in the image of God. I just disagree with you on moral issues and belief in God. As for calling us gullible fools would you call Galileo, Copernicus, and Sir Isaac Newton fools? They all believed in God. Calling someone a fool proves nothing.

To BGone:

Do you really think it helps your position to never change your argument, and keep sending people to one specific website that you agree with? I think it weakens your argument greatly.

Athena-

I think your version has more truth and makes more sense.

The simple question is: can Christians be saved,, from themselves?

The angels in heaven fell down and worshiped Lucifer calling Him God. Christians are still worshiping Lucifer and think they are avoiding Devil worship by callling Him God. Churches are filled with angels but what kind are they?

No one hates sin more than Devil. That's why He fries sinners, Devil worshipers forever and ever in His kingdom, hell.

Heaven is democracy is heaven. The kingdom of God is hell. Examine the particulars of the *crispy critter* in the *ball of fire* Moses made the deal with to create a kingdom here on earth. Give Exodus another look. It could be true ya know.

"Where conservatives and liberals agree is that religion does and should have a role in shaping public values and policy."

I'm going to have to agree with Andrea here and say 'No' to this. Personal beliefs should have a role in shaping public policy. Beliefs can be shaped by religion, of course, but religion itself should not be shaping public policy. There is a big difference.

One says that the believer can take from a multitude of sources and come up with a firm position on some new challenge that was not around 1000 years ago for the holy texts to comment on. Another says that the only source of public policy should be the religion of the believer. I don't think the latter is a good choice.

Oh, I can't resist a little bit of editing...

"One thing that is never pointed out by the Christianists in our society is that the Christian would also govern out of what they believe to be true and thus they would be forcing their belief and righteous ways on the rest of us who do not believe. The Christianists believe that they are created in the image of God and whether they like it or not should stop whining about people of reason who actually let his or her reason affect the way they govern. The Christianists truly want to set up a double standard that allows for believers and discounts and marginalizes unbelievers. The radical right wing and for the most part compliant media have been co-conspirators with the Christianist politicians in the past. It will be interesting to so if they will stick together on this issue."

ANONYMOUS
You say you hate sin....
Here's one sin that I find deplorable...
indoctrinating children into whatever happens to be the local superstitious groupthink.
Teaching children that there's life after death.
Teaching them that there's a benevolent old man who lives in the sky and watches our every move.
Teaching them that the local superstition is superior to all the other superstitions.
Better to teach children to be curious and questioning about the real world,and not to believe evrything that they are told.

God Awed

I'm an atheist. How can atheists hate god if they dont believe he exists?
I will agree with you on one point...that politicians will pretend to believe in a god because thats where the votes are.
Yeah,I think they lie.I think they many of them are too smart to believe in the supernatural. It's disgusting that they have to pretend to be gulliblefools in order to get the votes of gullible fools. It's just the whacky way the world is these days,and politicians will say anything to advance their careers.
But if you think that religious faith is a virtue,
the men who blew up the World Trade Centre were men of faith too.They believed just as you do that there's a god in the sky.
Now they are dust.

E-Favorite,

I hope you are having a nice day. I hate no one but I do hate sin.

God-awed - are you going to post your hateful
"Christian" message on all the threads?

I wish you wouldn't. It makes Christians look bad.

The Devil is busy. Now He has the Democrat party too. Of course all issues boil down to economics so small wonder for the big bucks go to those who lead the multitudes to hell.

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul to the highest bidder.

Lucifer is laughing himself silly as the dummys pay his fee to the leaders of the multitudes. Democrats must not be left behind.

It's really lonesome in heaven ya know. The big party is never ending and it's being thrown for the faithful in a place called hell, the better class of people only of course. It wouldn't be much of a party without the Democrats would it. Who else is there to hate and despise in church, the gateway to hell.

People of faith are entitled to their belief in God. They should not be looked down upon and scoffed at when they run for public office. Of course what they believe will be seen in the way they will govern. It better or they are hypocrites. One thing that is never pointed out by the God haters in our society is that the atheist would also govern out of what they believe to be true and thus they would be forcing their unbelief and unrighteous ways on the rest of us who do believe. The God haters are also created in the image of God and whether they like it or not should stop whining about people of faith who actually let his or her faith affect the way they govern. The God haters truly want to set up a double standard that allows for unbelievers and discounts and marginalizes believers. The radical left wing and for the most part God hating media have been co-conspirators with the anti-god politicians in the past. It will be interesting to so if they will stick together on this issue.

Now for the pro-baby murdering, pro-homosexual, hypocrites who are claiming to believe in God all of a sudden because they see there is a huge voting block of people who believe in God. Their embracing of the homosexual and abortion agendas show them to be hypocrites because God's word clearly says these things are sin and a reproach to any people who embrace them. I think the democrats are starting to see that some of the African American voters are starting to vote republican and they think that throwing God's name all over the place will help them hold on to the African American vote. Well I have news for them; I think that the African Americans who believe in God's word will not be fooled by that kind of hypocrisy. I also think that the Democrats who are all of sudden believers and those Republicans who use God's name for political purposes realize that most all the Latinos that are coming to our country believe in God. They may fool some of the people but not those who truly know God and His word. They will give an account for their hypocrisy on judgment day so I suggest that they just be who they really are and stop wearing the mask of belief.

Rev Thistlethwaite – At the end of your essay, you state, “It is frankly idolatrous for one political group to claim to speak for God. God is not a God of the gaps in our political or even religious lives, but an infinite spirit whose will we all struggle to discern.”

Here’s how I’d change that sentence:
“It is frankly ridiculous for any political group to claim to speak for God. God should not be raised as an issue in our political lives. God is an unprovable, imaginary supernatural entity whose non-existent “will” should never be considered in any governmental decision.”

Also, I ask you not to make all-inclusive assertions about how people react to God. Obviously you know, if just by reading the responses to your essays, that for some people, God is not an “infinite spirit” whose will they “struggle to discern.” Frankly, I think such people, focused instead on struggling with reality and the will of the people, would make excellent public servants.

"Where conservatives and liberals agree is that religion does and should have a role in shaping public values and policy."

No.