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hello everyone
is here someone who smoke cigars ?
greetings for all



pure18 and Pure Asian Men

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Sorry about the multiple posts, my mistake. The same got posted 4 times when I really thought I was editing. Again, sorry folks!!!

To all of you so-called believers, I have this to say to you. Man has created its gods in its own image since time immemorial. What is "faith" if not the fear of death capitalized own by the priestly classes and turned into a lucrative industry. In order to keep your "customers" obedient and fearful, the notion of hell had to be created to sufficiently scare them into submitting to whatever nonsense these priests, rabbis, ministers or whatever else they call themselves used to obtain power over the masses. The rich and powerful had their gratification instantly in this plane of existence, but their serfs, peasant and slaves had to "obey" in order to receive their reward in an "afterlife" call heaven. What a good way to keep them all in line... An eternal pit of burning and suffering would not indicate and "all loving and merciful god" but the demented creation of humanity's sick mind thirsting for control. No wonder I am proud of calling myself an atheist when these fanciful fabrications for mind-control are used to keep the "faithful" in line through abject fear. What a sadistic way of keeping your followers in their respective so-called "faith". Faith in heaven and hell, rather mind-control and conditionning. Fear is a powerful conditionning agent, and religions of all type and denomination are using it to its fullest extend. Infantile! Nobody has ever returned from the dead to give us pictures and brochures, and don't throw "biblical facts" at the non-believers, since the bible is anything for factual, rather the assemblage of old myths, legends and stories of past civilizations put together in one book. Can anybody really read the absurdities contain in the bible, i.e. the flood, creation, revelations etc. and really tell me they absolutely believe ALL that is contained without doubting its veracity?!?! I am told by the apologists that the bible was "inspired". What a great way to sell an illusion to the weak-minded! Inspired,yeah right, rather fabricated, using old stories and legends to use as control. Sorry Mel, there are MANY who do not believe in heaven and hell, even so-called devout christians, not only atheists. Too many believe in a so-called "paradise" and use this as an excuse for atrocities, not only the muslims mind you, although they take it to ludicrous extremes, believe that killing in the name of some god is excusable and a reason to enter paradise. What this world needs is not more religion, but less, and finally lose this ridiculous notion of heaven and hell. No wonder atheists find the concept of religious beliefs so appalling! Enough already! Muslims and jews, christians and other faith have alway use the "with the help of god" line to legitimatize their horrific actions, and it is high time we all put a stop to this nonsense. Heaven and hell, really! How can anyone pertain to know what happens after death if no one has ever returned from it?!? The fanciful story of jesus christ, the son of god (really now...) returning from the dead is not only hard to swallow, but then again, "believers" have been conditionned to accept these notions without ever thinking of challenging them. Simple logic, common-sense and intelligent analysis will always prevail over blind-faith, notwithstanding the use of "religious beliefs" as a basis for excuses to commit the worst excesses. Since the beginning of history, kings, pharaohs, presidents, emperors all have found religion to be a great control tool for the uneducated masses. Throw in a good sprinkling of "god's will" into your politics and you have given the masses the excuse to commit atrocities against one another. Add going to heaven in the process of killing your fellow man for good measure and voila! mind-control and obedience. Step out of line, and the threat of burning in some pit for all eternity is thrown at the few dissidents. Let me use the infantile notion of hell for a moment to make an example, can you imagine a parent having to watch his children burning in eternal torment just because a "loving god" has decreed that they made the mistake of not submitting their free-will to the notion of "sin" fabricated by the few to control the many. The notion of eternal hell is another reason why I reject the notion of "god" and all its fanciful artifacts of control. Again, a great many do not believe in heaven, hell, purgatory, nivarna, valhalla or whatever, and that's that. Please, let's stop these pitiful attempts at keeping control over the so-called believers by the apologists and get on in building a better "here and now" without using atavistic fears in an already complicated world.

To all of you so-called believers, I have this to say to you. Man has created its gods in its own image since time immemorial. What is "faith" if not the fear of death capitalized on by the priestly classes and turned into a lucrative industry. In order to keep the "believers" obedient and fearful, the notion of hell had to be created to sufficiently scare them into submitting to whatever nonsense these priests, rabbis, ministers or whatever else they call themselves used to obtain power over the masses. The rich and powerful had their gratification instantly in this plane of existence, but their serfs, peasant and slaves had to "obey" in order to receive their reward in an "afterlife" call heaven. What a good way to keep them all in line... An eternal pit of burning and suffering would not indicate and "all loving and merciful god" but the demented creation of humanity's sick mind thirsting for control. No wonder I am proud of calling myself an atheist when these fanciful fabrications for mind-control are used to keep the "faithful" in line through abject fear. Faith in heaven and hell, rather mind-control and conditionning. Fear is a powerful conditionning agent, and religions of all type and denomination are using it to its fullest extend. Infantile! Nobody has ever returned from the dead to give us pictures and brochures, and don't throw "biblical facts" at the non-believers, since the bible is anything but factual, rather the assemblage of old myths, legends and stories of past civilizations put together in one book. Can anybody really read the absurdities contain in the bible, i.e. the flood, creation, revelations etc. and really tell me they absolutely believe ALL that is contained without doubting its veracity?!?! I am told by the apologists that the bible was "inspired". What a great way to sell an illusion to the weak-minded! Inspired,yeah right, rather fabricated, using old stories and legends to use as control. Sorry Mel, there are MANY who do not believe in heaven and hell, even so-called devout christians, not only atheists. Too many believe in a so-called "paradise" and use this as an excuse for atrocities and killing in the name of some god as excusable and a reason to enter paradise. What this world needs is to finally lose this ridiculous notion of heaven and hell. No wonder atheists find the concept of religious beliefs so appalling! Enough already! The "with the help of god" line to legitimatize horrific actions,is nonsense. How can anyone pertain to know what happens after death if no one has ever returned from it?!? The fanciful story of jesus christ, the son of god (really now...) returning from the dead is hard to swallow, but then again, "believers" have been conditionned to accept these notions without ever thinking of challenging them. Simple logic, common-sense and intelligent analysis will always prevail over blind-faith, notwithstanding the use of "religious beliefs" as a basis for excuses to commit the worst excesses. Since the beginning of history, kings, pharaohs, presidents, emperors all have found religion to be a great control tool for the uneducated masses. Throw in a good sprinkling of "god's will" into your politics and you have given the masses the excuse to commit atrocities against one another. Add going to heaven in the process of killing your fellow man for good measure and voila! mind-control and obedience. Step out of line, and the threat of burning in some pit for all eternity is thrown at the few dissidents. Let me use the infantile notion of hell for a moment to make an example, can you imagine a parent having to watch his children burning in eternal torment just because a "loving god" has decreed that they made the mistake of not submitting their free-will to the notion of "sin" fabricated by the few to control the many. The notion of eternal hell is another reason why I reject the notion of "god" and all its fanciful artifacts of control. Again, a great many do not believe in heaven, hell, purgatory, nivarna, valhalla or whatever. Please, let's stop these pitiful attempts at keeping control over the so-called believers by the apologists and get on in building a better "here and now" without using atavistic fears in an already complicated world.

To all of you so-called believers, I have this to say to you. Man has created its gods in its own image since time immemorial. What is "faith" if not the fear of death capitalized on by the priestly classes and turned into a lucrative industry. In order to keep the "believers" obedient and fearful, the notion of hell had to be created to sufficiently scare them into submitting to whatever nonsense these priests, rabbis, ministers or whatever else they call themselves used to obtain power over the masses. The rich and powerful had their gratification instantly in this plane of existence, but their serfs, peasant and slaves had to "obey" in order to receive their reward in an "afterlife" call heaven. What a good way to keep them all in line... An eternal pit of burning and suffering would not indicate and "all loving and merciful god" but the demented creation of humanity's sick mind thirsting for control. No wonder I am proud of calling myself an atheist when these fanciful fabrications for mind-control are used to keep the "faithful" in line through abject fear. What a sadistic way of keeping your followers in their respective so-called "faith". Faith in heaven and hell, rather mind-control and conditionning. Fear is a powerful conditionning agent, and religions of all type and denomination are using it to its fullest extend. Infantile! Nobody has ever returned from the dead to give us pictures and brochures, and don't throw "biblical facts" at the non-believers, since the bible is anything but factual, rather the assemblage of old myths, legends and stories of past civilizations put together in one book. Can anybody really read the absurdities contain in the bible, i.e. the flood, creation, revelations etc. and really tell me they absolutely believe ALL that is contained without doubting its veracity?!?! I am told by the apologists that the bible was "inspired". What a great way to sell an illusion to the weak-minded! Inspired,yeah right, rather fabricated, using old stories and legends to use as control. Sorry Mel, there are MANY who do not believe in heaven and hell, even so-called devout christians, not only atheists. Too many believe in a so-called "paradise" and use this as an excuse for atrocities, not only the muslims mind you, although they take it to ludicrous extremes, believe that killing in the name of some god is excusable and a reason to enter paradise. What this world needs is not more religion, but less, and finally lose this ridiculous notion of heaven and hell. No wonder atheists find the concept of religious beliefs so appalling! Enough already! Muslims and jews, christians and other faith have alway use the "with the help of god" line to legitimatize their horrific actions, and it is high time we all put a stop to this nonsense. Heaven and hell, really! How can anyone pertain to know what happens after death if no one has ever returned from it?!? The fanciful story of jesus christ, the son of god (really now...) returning from the dead is hard to swallow, but then again, "believers" have been conditionned to accept these notions without ever thinking of challenging them. Simple logic, common-sense and intelligent analysis will always prevail over blind-faith, notwithstanding the use of "religious beliefs" as a basis for excuses to commit the worst excesses. Since the beginning of history, kings, pharaohs, presidents, emperors all have found religion to be a great control tool for the uneducated masses. Throw in a good sprinkling of "god's will" into your politics and you have given the masses the excuse to commit atrocities against one another. Add going to heaven in the process of killing your fellow man for good measure and voila! mind-control and obedience. Step out of line, and the threat of burning in some pit for all eternity is thrown at the few dissidents. Let me use the infantile notion of hell for a moment to make an example, can you imagine a parent having to watch his children burning in eternal torment just because a "loving god" has decreed that they made the mistake of not submitting their free-will to the notion of "sin" fabricated by the few to control the many. The notion of eternal hell is another reason why I reject the notion of "god" and all its fanciful artifacts of control. Again, a great many do not believe in heaven, hell, purgatory, nivarna, valhalla or whatever, and that's that. Please, let's stop these pitiful attempts at keeping control over the so-called believers by the apologists and get on in building a better "here and now" without using atavistic fears in an already complicated world.

To all of you so-called believers, I have this to say to you. Man has created its gods in its own image since time immemorial. What is "faith" if not the fear of death capitalized on by the priestly classes and turned into a lucrative industry. In order to keep the "believers" obedient and fearful, the notion of hell had to be created to sufficiently scare them into submitting to whatever nonsense these priests, rabbis, ministers or whatever else they call themselves used to obtain power over the masses. The rich and powerful had their gratification instantly in this plane of existence, but their serfs, peasant and slaves had to "obey" in order to receive their reward in an "afterlife" call heaven. What a good way to keep them all in line... An eternal pit of burning and suffering would not indicate and "all loving and merciful god" but the demented creation of humanity's sick mind thirsting for control. No wonder I am proud of calling myself an atheist when these fanciful fabrications for mind-control are used to keep the "faithful" in line through abject fear. What a sadistic way of keeping your followers in their respective so-called "faith". Faith in heaven and hell, rather mind-control and conditionning. Fear is a powerful conditionning agent, and religions of all type and denomination are using it to its fullest extend. Infantile! Nobody has ever returned from the dead to give us pictures and brochures, and don't throw "biblical facts" at the non-believers, since the bible is anything but factual, rather the assemblage of old myths, legends and stories of past civilizations put together in one book. Can anybody really read the absurdities contain in the bible, i.e. the flood, creation, revelations etc. and really tell me they absolutely believe ALL that is contained without doubting its veracity?!?! I am told by the apologists that the bible was "inspired". What a great way to sell an illusion to the weak-minded! Inspired,yeah right, rather fabricated, using old stories and legends to use as control. Sorry Mel, there are MANY who do not believe in heaven and hell, even so-called devout christians, not only atheists. Too many believe in a so-called "paradise" and use this as an excuse for atrocities, not only the muslims mind you, although they take it to ludicrous extremes, believe that killing in the name of some god is excusable and a reason to enter paradise. What this world needs is not more religion, but less, and finally lose this ridiculous notion of heaven and hell. No wonder atheists find the concept of religious beliefs so appalling! Enough already! Muslims and jews, christians and other faith have alway use the "with the help of god" line to legitimatize their horrific actions, and it is high time we all put a stop to this nonsense. Heaven and hell, really! How can anyone pertain to know what happens after death if no one has ever returned from it?!? The fanciful story of jesus christ, the son of god (really now...) returning from the dead is hard to swallow, but then again, "believers" have been conditionned to accept these notions without ever thinking of challenging them. Simple logic, common-sense and intelligent analysis will always prevail over blind-faith, notwithstanding the use of "religious beliefs" as a basis for excuses to commit the worst excesses. Since the beginning of history, kings, pharaohs, presidents, emperors all have found religion to be a great control tool for the uneducated masses. Throw in a good sprinkling of "god's will" into your politics and you have given the masses the excuse to commit atrocities against one another. Add going to heaven in the process of killing your fellow man for good measure and voila! mind-control and obedience. Step out of line, and the threat of burning in some pit for all eternity is thrown at the few dissidents. Let me use the infantile notion of hell for a moment to make an example, can you imagine a parent having to watch his children burning in eternal torment just because a "loving god" has decreed that they made the mistake of not submitting their free-will to the notion of "sin" fabricated by the few to control the many. The notion of eternal hell is another reason why I reject the notion of "god" and all its fanciful artifacts of control. Again, a great many do not believe in heaven, hell, purgatory, nivarna, valhalla or whatever, and that's that. Please, let's stop these pitiful attempts at keeping control over the so-called believers by the apologists and get on in building a better "here and now" without using atavistic fears in an already complicated world.

To all of you so-called believers, I have this to say to you. Man has created its gods in its own image since time immemorial. What is "faith" if not the fear of death capitalized on by the priestly classes and turned into a lucrative industry. In order to keep the "believers" obedient and fearful, the notion of hell had to be created to sufficiently scare them into submitting to whatever nonsense these priests, rabbis, ministers or whatever else they call themselves used to obtain power over the masses. The rich and powerful had their gratification instantly in this plane of existence, but their serfs, peasant and slaves had to "obey" in order to receive their reward in an "afterlife" call heaven. What a good way to keep them all in line... An eternal pit of burning and suffering would not indicate and "all loving and merciful god" but the demented creation of humanity's sick mind thirsting for control. No wonder I am proud of calling myself an atheist when these fanciful fabrications for mind-control are used to keep the "faithful" in line through abject fear. What a sadistic way of keeping your followers in their respective so-called "faith". Faith in heaven and hell, rather mind-control and conditionning. Fear is a powerful conditionning agent, and religions of all type and denomination are using it to its fullest extend. Infantile! Nobody has ever returned from the dead to give us pictures and brochures, and don't throw "biblical facts" at the non-believers, since the bible is anything but factual, rather the assemblage of old myths, legends and stories of past civilizations put together in one book. Can anybody really read the absurdities contain in the bible, i.e. the flood, creation, revelations etc. and really tell me they absolutely believe ALL that is contained without doubting its veracity?!?! I am told by the apologists that the bible was "inspired". What a great way to sell an illusion to the weak-minded! Inspired,yeah right, rather fabricated, using old stories and legends to use as control. Sorry Mel, there are MANY who do not believe in heaven and hell, even so-called devout christians, not only atheists. Too many believe in a so-called "paradise" and use this as an excuse for atrocities, not only the muslims mind you, although they take it to ludicrous extremes, believe that killing in the name of some god is excusable and a reason to enter paradise. What this world needs is not more religion, but less, and finally lose this ridiculous notion of heaven and hell. No wonder atheists find the concept of religious beliefs so appalling! Enough already! Muslims and jews, christians and other faith have alway use the "with the help of god" line to legitimatize their horrific actions, and it is high time we all put a stop to this nonsense. Heaven and hell, really! How can anyone pertain to know what happens after death if no one has ever returned from it?!? The fanciful story of jesus christ, the son of god (really now...) returning from the dead is hard to swallow, but then again, "believers" have been conditionned to accept these notions without ever thinking of challenging them. Simple logic, common-sense and intelligent analysis will always prevail over blind-faith, notwithstanding the use of "religious beliefs" as a basis for excuses to commit the worst excesses. Since the beginning of history, kings, pharaohs, presidents, emperors all have found religion to be a great control tool for the uneducated masses. Throw in a good sprinkling of "god's will" into your politics and you have given the masses the excuse to commit atrocities against one another. Add going to heaven in the process of killing your fellow man for good measure and voila! mind-control and obedience. Step out of line, and the threat of burning in some pit for all eternity is thrown at the few dissidents. Let me use the infantile notion of hell for a moment to make an example, can you imagine a parent having to watch his children burning in eternal torment just because a "loving god" has decreed that they made the mistake of not submitting their free-will to the notion of "sin" fabricated by the few to control the many. The notion of eternal hell is another reason why I reject the notion of "god" and all its fanciful artifacts of control. Again, a great many do not believe in heaven, hell, purgatory, nivarna, valhalla or whatever, and that's that. Please, let's stop these pitiful attempts at keeping control over the so-called believers by the apologists and get on in building a better "here and now" without using atavistic fears in an already complicated world.

YOYO

I pray that you open your heart to God and come to believe in Him so you may not go to hell. But if you harden your heart and continue to reject Him, you will surely go there. Satan is happy even if you reject him too. He sure is waiting to see you soon.

Another whacked faith-head. You people and your ancient delusions crack me up. LOL

Mel;

I think your inability to believe that
others reject heaven and hell,
demonstrates how religious beliefs
have closed your mind to reality.
Millions reject god,satan,heaven,hell
and the whole demented supernatural world.
You are in good company,however.
The 9/11 bombers believed in paradise,
just like you do.

Does anybody here wants to go to hell? I think nobody raise his/her hand.

Does anybody here wants to go to heaven? I think nobody here did not raise his/her hand.

I think everybody believes in heaven and hell.

TO MYSTIC:

I like your statement:
"The law of the equlibrium (think of a pendulum). The more good you become, the greater the evil you can do."

So true. I like another too:
"From great abilities come great responsibilities."

Pat Conover,

I am not sure exactly what you are getting at. One thing I note is that you seem to correlate oppressed people with depressed people. I wonder if I understand you right, what you mean by 'depressed', and where you get that idea of connected depressed with oppressed (the meaning of oppressed seems straightfoward enough).

I don't think I'll go any farther about that until I know what you mean, because I don't want to put words into your mouth.

We mustn't patronize Christians by overspiritualizing their message. The whole point of the Christian message ISN'T that there is hope beyond death, that suffering isn't the last word, etc. Those are implications of the Christian message, but they are not the message. The Christian message is that the Almighty and Trascendent Creator of the universe condescended to enter into his own creation by truly becoming a man, one of his own creatures, and that he was thereupon executed as a criminal and bodily resurrected from the dead.

Jesus Christ is the message of Christianity.

It is not clinging to a desperate fantasy that gets us out of a hell-on-earth. Being good does that. The Greek philosophers observed that what makes possible a modicum of happiness, even in the face of adversity, is just basic virtue. What Jesus Christ and Christianity purport to do is to get us out of hell-after-life-on-earth.

That's very different, my friend.

No, actually, on second thought, I will address your connection between oppression and depression. If I misunderstood you, please correct me.

In wealthy countries we often assume, even we Christians, without meaning to, that wealth brings happiness. Freedom brings wealth. Oppression brings poverty. Poverty brings sadness. Depression is extreme sadness.

But none of those statements is true. The Greeks observed (and we do, if we are careful and look beyond immediately visible appearances) that there are very many unhappy wealthy people; startlingly, there are also very many happy poor people. Their poverty brings problems, to be sure, but life has problems. Nothing is perfect. Poverty doesn't allow the illusion that life can be perfect if I just have one more thing. The accumulation of wealth not only fosters that idea, but is based on it. But then it turns out not to be true.

Oppression can bring poverty, but it needed. It can also bring great wealth. After all, Nazi Germany's economy in 1939 was MUCH stronger than in 1923, though its society was MUCH less free.

Depression isn't sadness, which often does come with hardship. Depression is blah-ness. Depression is why-bother-ness. Depression pointlessness. A couchpotato with 200 channels and "nothing good on" is a lot closer to the figure of a depressed person than someone who has to work hard just to get by. Justification for my argument? Common sense and my experience. The very fact that a person keeps going even though he just gets by shows that he is not depressed and that he thinks life, even a poor one, is "worth it." The couchpotato has lost interest in life because he has stopped living it, even though he may have very ample means to do so. He has lost interest in life because the things that were supposed to give it meaning (his stuff, his toys, his wealth) hasn't done so, and on some level he has despaired and thinks that life mustn't really have a meaning.

The need to be entertained constantly, pandemic in our culture, reveals a great lack in personal creativeness and zest. We need things outside us to keep us entertained, to the extent that we have nothing lively within us. That is depression.

Coincidentally, the view of Christianity as an existential groping for meaning (if that is what you believe) does not explain Christianity. It certainly does not explain Christianity away (if that is what you were trying to do... I don't know). Everyone searches for meaning. Why do some settle on Christianity, and others on other ideas? Presumably because they believe the ideas (Christian or whatever else) to be true, to correspond in some way to reality, and because reality is not only worth living for, but also is the only thing capable of being lived in. Fantasies cannot be lived in - not safely, nor for long - not by the sane.

I think the view of Christianity as a existential search to impose meaning on suffering is more likely the psychological projection of people who are searching for something to live for.

I think the best way to get some good use out of this question is to consider the existential questions from which the imagery arose, not so much as metaphor, but as needed fantasy. Susan's reminder about Dante lures us toward such existential consideration.

For a lot of oppressed people, and therefore for a lot of depressed people, such as many of the publics for which the various parts of the Bible was written, it is crucial to sustain hope that what you see and experience is not the last word about life and meaning.

Clinging to a desperate fantasy, from revenge, from subjective flashes of grace, from whatever, gets us out of Kafka"s No Exit (hell). However absurd the path of Jesus may seem to non-believers, the spiritual appreciation is that the cross is not the final word. Torture and cruelty is not the final word. Hope and engagement are living words and even a conversation about heaven and hell has some connecting points.
pat conover

Elmer O.R. Gantry,

What does it means to be happy? Isn't it something like to be satisfied?

In that case, most wealthy and powerful people probably do not have the right idea about the meaning of this life. Their unhappiness is subtly revealed in their insatiable appetite for more wealth and power.

If one doesn't believe in God, well, believing in heaven and hell make no sense. Of course, not much else makes sense either, in that case.

If one does believe in God, then one necessarily believes that there are spiritual realities, beings, that are not dependent on corporeal matter for their existence.

If human beings have a spiritual reality, then such a reality is not subject to decomposition; decomposition is a function of materiality. That is: trees decompose, boats rot, the worms crawl in and so on. But ideas and intentions, in themselves, they do not change. Of course, the ones we have might change, but the things themselves don't. If we have a soul, then the soul must persevere beyond our bodily death, or else it is not what is commonly meant by "soul".

(As an aside, if humans haven't a soul, then we aren't different than animals except by degree; there is nothing distinct about us, only more evolved, perhaps. Advocates of such an idea have a great deal to explain in that case: why bears care for their young, and communicate with their young, but do not tell their young stories about little girls sleeping in their beds; they have to explain why English and Chinese can learn to communicate spontaneously about ideas, but why we can only talk about food and belly-scratching with our dogs; and so on...)

Our soul is a spiritual reality that, while not strictly dependent on our body for its existence, interacts with the body and does depend upon it for proper functioning. Our souls, inherently capable of understanding visual stimuli, cannot ever come to know anything about such stimuli without our bodies, our eyes. Our souls, capable of affectionate feelings, cannot express those feelings in communication without our bodies, and nor can they even perceive anything about which to feel affection, without our bodies. And so on. Our souls are capable of change, but only by union with our changeable bodies.

Disembodied after death, one's soul will only be able to exist in some sort of stasis, or perhaps continue on a trajectory set before death.

The reasons Dr. Thistlewaite gave for believing in what is perhaps more clearly termed "heavenliness" and "hellishness" give me reason to believe in heaven and hell themselves, something like how they are commonly understood. In my own heart, I have experienced self-pity, depression, hatred even of my best friends and family. This sort of misery is bad enough, but to imagine it magnified (especially to imagine it magnified continuously for ever) makes me shudder to think what hell (after death) might be like. By contrast, I have also experienced self-forgetfulness in exhiliration, the elation of knowing and loving and being known and loved, the joy of doing good without doing it for myself. Imagining what that might be like, intensified for ever, gives me an idea what heaven (after death) might be like.

The Mark Twain quote is very sad. It contains the puritanical streak that underlies our entire culture, packing the assumption that if a thing is fun, or feels good, it must be a sin: drinking, smoking, etc. "Thus, heaven is nice enough, but boring; hell is bad, but we can't figure out since all the people there are people who like to dance or play cards or whatever is supposed to be sinful." If there is a hell, we must be very clear: we don't go there because we are fun, or don't like rules, or whatever. If there is a hell, it is not only Hitler and Stalin who go there. They had more power than most, but we all of us have the makings of hell inside us: jealousy, anger, greed, arrogance, the desire to use others for our gratification, and so on. To suffer from those traits in others is not fun, and even to have those traits in ourselves is not particularly fun for particularly long. Hell is not a fun place, if hell exists.

Likewise, if the good things that God has made for us are any indication of what he plans for those who love and seek him, if the beach and the mountains, friendship, clear autumn days, sexual love, quiet reading on the porch, cognac, if these things came from the same mind that thought up heaven: who could be bored with those things?

Probably only the sort of people who go to hell.

If one doesn't believe in God, well, believing in heaven and hell make no sense. Of course, not much else makes sense either, in that case.

If one does believe in God, then one necessarily believes that there are spiritual realities, beings, that are not dependent on corporeal matter for their existence.

If human beings have a spiritual reality, then such a reality is not subject to decomposition; decomposition is a function of materiality. That is: trees decompose, boats rot, the worms crawl in and so on. But ideas and intentions, in themselves, they do not change. Of course, the ones we have might change, but the things themselves don't. If we have a soul, then the soul must persevere beyond our bodily death, or else it is not what is commonly meant by "soul".

(As an aside, if humans haven't a soul, then we aren't different than animals except by degree; there is nothing distinct about us, only more evolved, perhaps. Advocates of such an idea have a great deal to explain in that case: why bears care for their young, and communicate with their young, but do not tell their young stories about little girls sleeping in their beds; they have to explain why English and Chinese can learn to communicate spontaneously about ideas, but why we can only talk about food and belly-scratching with our dogs; and so on...)

Our soul is a spiritual reality that, while not strictly dependent on our body for its existence, interacts with the body and does depend upon it for proper functioning. Our souls, inherently capable of understanding visual stimuli, cannot ever come to know anything about such stimuli without our bodies, our eyes. Our souls, capable of affectionate feelings, cannot express those feelings in communication without our bodies, and nor can they even perceive anything about which to feel affection, without our bodies. And so on. Our souls are capable of change, but only by union with our changeable bodies.

Disembodied after death, one's soul will only be able to exist in some sort of stasis, or perhaps continue on a trajectory set before death.

The reasons Dr. Thistlewaite gave for believing in what is perhaps more clearly termed "heavenliness" and "hellishness" give me reason to believe in heaven and hell themselves, something like how they are commonly understood. In my own heart, I have experienced self-pity, depression, hatred even of my best friends and family. This sort of misery is bad enough, but to imagine it magnified (especially to imagine it magnified continuously for ever) makes me shudder to think what hell (after death) might be like. By contrast, I have also experienced self-forgetfulness in exhiliration, the elation of knowing and loving and being known and loved, the joy of doing good without doing it for myself. Imagining what that might be like, intensified for ever, gives me an idea what heaven (after death) might be like.

The Mark Twain quote is very sad. It contains the puritanical streak that underlies our entire culture, packing the assumption that if a thing is fun, or feels good, it must be a sin: drinking, smoking, etc. "Thus, heaven is nice enough, but boring; hell is bad, but we can't figure out since all the people there are people who like to dance or play cards or whatever is supposed to be sinful." If there is a hell, we must be very clear: we don't go there because we are fun, or don't like rules, or whatever. If there is a hell, it is not only Hitler and Stalin who go there. They had more power than most, but we all of us have the makings of hell inside us: jealousy, anger, greed, arrogance, the desire to use others for our gratification, and so on. To suffer from those traits in others is not fun, and even to have those traits in ourselves is not particularly fun for particularly long. Hell is not a fun place, if hell exists.

Likewise, if the good things that God has made for us are any indication of what he plans for those who love and seek him, if the beach and the mountains, friendship, clear autumn days, sexual love, quiet reading on the porch, cognac, if these things came from the same mind that thought up heaven: who could be bored with those things?

Probably only the sort of people who go to hell.

I think that the rich and powerful (including those rich and powerful religous icons) know the answer that we dance around---get it while you can using any method available and don't play fair because brothers and sisters if you don't make your own heaven here you will never know what it is.
When we say "life after death" we say it from such a weak position that it has no meaning. We don't have a clue as to what this life is about so how can we extrapolate anything at the end of this existence. Life after death has the same meaning as jumbo shrimp-it is an oxymoron.
Quit wondering what is going to happen next and enjoy now, so that when it is finally lights out you will be in the right frame of mind for an adventure. Or not.

None of you believe what I believe. And I don't like you because you don't say the things that I say about heaven and hell. You should believe what I believe and use the language I want to use when discussing these things. And I will not tell you what I believe or use my language to discuss heaven or hell.

You are all in error. And none of you have authority to write these things. Please stop writing these things. You do not have the right words and do not know where to find them.

H

Rev Susan - please take what Yo yo and Skeptic said to heart.

Next time, say "I think Heaven and Hell are a metaphor. I don't really believe in a physical Heaven and Hell after death."

I think you and others like you, in positions of athority and trust, have a responsibility to be honest and very clear.

Be brave. Be genuine.

CC and Ottie
Nice posts.
That Mark Twain had quite a mind didn't he?
And such a wonderful way with words.

Isaac Asimov: "I don't believe in an afterlife, so I don't have to spend my whole life fearing hell, or fearing heaven even more. For whatever the tortures of hell, I think the boredom of heaven would be even worse."

Mark Twain: "Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company."

“If there is no hell, a good many preachers are obtaining money under false pretenses.” -- Billy Sunday.

Will Rogers once said:

"There is no argument in the world that carries the hatred that a religious belief does. The more learned a man is the less consideration he has for another man's belief.

"If some of these birds would follow His example instead of trying to figure out His mode of arrival and departure, they would come nearer getting confidence in their church."

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

Norrie's joke brings up a question. Hell is a Greek word. The actual place where ancient Egyptians, the ones who invented a place called hell were thrown, off the nebol bridge, over the side and down into the Abyss which is the cesspool, sewage disposal. You know what runs down hill, why mansions are built on the hill top. Who and how was it set on fire? Probably enough methane gas to have a little puff of fire here and there but far from enough for continuous combustion. Must be oxygen in hell too.

The Egyptian version was not on fire. That is why we have God appearing in a ball of fire, Exodus, just more evidence Moses was an Egyptian and not Jewish. Hoaxers have a very difficult time getting their story straight when they merge lies from more than one group of people into one humungus fungus of a lie, hell.

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul has pictures of *hell on fire* and *God on fire* authenticated by the Roman Catholic Church. Says Bible God is actually the fallen angel Lucifer. Somethings bad wrong somewhere.

The first commandment summarizes to "No strange Gods." *Man on fire* God is certainly a strange one to my way of thinking. God's definitely not from Seattle.

Norrie -

I love the joke. I know we are pretty liberal out here in Seattle.

Perhaps I can tell my crazy, fundamentalist in-laws who fear for my salvation that living in Seattle has it's perks. The look of utter confusion on their faces would be fun.

Heaven and Hell were created by man. God was not created by man. The study of Theocracy is an attempt by man to classify God in his own personal image and to package that image and sell it on the open market for profit, whether for money, population control or their own egos. Now, for those who are sincere in their own personal search for God more power to you, but, please do not preach to others that you have found and understand God and therefor have reached a God Like State in which God calls you on the phone to tell you who will win a presidential election: aka, Pat Robertson.

To those whom the above may appal
World theocratic fanatics, etal
Who preach at God with hubristic gall
God, not man, makes the final call.
Amen.
Note: The stanza above is the last stanza of a poem I wrote on this subject, Theocratic fanatics, but which is to long for this entry.

The law of the equlibrium (think of a pendulum). The more good you become, the greater the evil you can do. Look at Jesus meeting with Satan in the desert. Satan tempted Jesus, offered him the rulership of the World if he chose "the devils" path. Jesus, with spiritual powers and wisdom, could have conquered the world. But, as we know, he choose to set himself as an example of one who follows Gods will.

Indiviually, we can dedicate our time and energy to accomplishing great good and distributing weath to many, or we can focus on ourselves, our own desires, and accumulating wealth and power for ourselves to the detriment of others. Men can do either based on their nature and will. Original sin is founded in the core of ourselves by our self-consciousness. Are we to view ourselves as individuals (each for themselve) or as a part of a larger body (part of creation). Our inclination towards one pole or the other will determine the degree of "hell" or "heaven" we bring to earth. The responsibility is on each and everyone of ourselves, individually and collectively.

One question: does your church distinguish its members and teachings from other churches, religions,and denominations? The answer will tell you which way a church leans (towards heaven or hell).

Dante, by biblical standards is a modern who had a vision of hell. Why are you using that garbage when there are 3,000+ year old versions of hell complete with pictures of the monster that eats people? The author of Revelation at least used something with a little history behind it.

http://www.hoax-buster.org has the history of heaven and hell from as far back as we can go, so far.

Primitive man believed he could deprive his murder victims of heaven by hacking up their bodies. Jesus said they were correct, "if your eye causes you to sin gouge it out. It is better to enter life, (that would be next life or heaven) with a part of your body missing..." Jesus said that the reconstructed bodies of the dead are exact duplicates of the dead one left behind here on earth.

Try the hoax buster site for an education on heaven, hell and the origin of the Bible and a lot more. Dante has hardly been buried. His opinions are no better than the bag lady's or Pat Robertson's.

The last post was mine.

SUSAN

You actually dodged the question
with your slippery response.
The fact is you do NOT believe in
heaven or hell as a place to go when you're dead.
To you it's a metaphor.
You say; Hell is the worst of human nature,
and Heaven is the incredible capacity
for human beings for redemption.
Are you kidding?
If that's how you want to define Hell and Heaven
even I'm a believer.
And I am an atheist of long standing.
With such sleight of hand
you should consider going into politics.

Rev. Brooks, it's interesting to shift the question of heaven and hell into an introspective look at human nature, but all you've done is put off the real matter at hand. Of course human beings are capable of both good and bad deeds; we don't need religion to tell us that. This question isn't about this world, it's about a supposed afterlife.

The fact is that many, many people profess to know what fate awaits them after death, and who will be lucky enough to share in their rewards. Many use the terms "heaven" and "hell" to describe those fates. While I'm sure everyone appreciates your artful point about the duality of man, you haven't really answered anything. Worse, you've made it easier for people to hide from the real question: how they can claim any amount of certainty regarding an "afterlife". Your abstractions and quotes from Dante answer nothing...where's the beef?

Rev. Brooks, it's interesting to shift the question of heaven and hell into an introspective look at human nature, but all you've done is put off the real matter at hand. Of course human beings are capable of both good and bad deeds; we don't need religion to tell us that. This question isn't about this world, it's about a supposed afterlife.

The fact is that many, many people profess to know what fate awaits them after death, and who will be lucky enough to share in their rewards. Many use the terms "heaven" and "hell" to describe those fates. While I'm sure everyone appreciates your artful point about the duality of many, you haven't really answered anything. Worse, you've made it easier for people to hide from the real question of how they can claim any amount of certainty regarding any matter outside of this life's experience.

It seems from your answer that you are one of those referred to in scripture as "ever learning and never comming to a knowledge of the Truth".

A theology professor yes, but are you a Christian?

Or perhaps you are one of those to whom Paul is speaking when he says "Thou sayeth thou believest there is one God? Thou doest well, the devils also believe; and tremble."

Norrie, the question itself is kinda dumb, but it has sparked some interesting responses. At the very least, the diversity of opinions should show us that most religious concepts are culturally biased.
And keep up the good stories!

To Norrie Hoyt and the rest of the world: I didn't die but I have experienced both hell and spiritual death and neither is even close to what Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite writes, neither is an allegory, they are both definitely very real. I can give you a definition of hell it is worse than you think because it is worse than you can think and you build it yourself and you do not know you are getting out. I have also met God the Trinity, Who happens to be Pure Love and I have also met satan who is not nice but can come across as mister nice guy, I imagine satan likes all of those cutesy little stories about him. Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews, God Incarnate told us that satan is the prince of this world and He also told us that He has overcome the world and that new heavens and a new earth is coming. A lot of people will be trying to hide behind their dogma and/or their religion, well that just might not cut it considering that God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof. Just trying to do the job that God chose me for, the New Testament Moses, night is coming be ready, but the seventh day will also get here and with it the Kingdom of God because God's Plan is for all of His children, page one "Let Us make man in Our Image", which means all of humanity. Calling yourself a christian does not mean you are a christian, as a matter of fact a lot of people that call themselves christians give Christianity a bad name. I'm just a messenger and I have said yes, I am also thankful that Mary said yes when God asked permission to become a human being. Jesus won the keys to hell and spiritual death and He will use them in due time. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Dr. Brooks,

You have been "Dantetized". What would you conclude without Dante's fiction???

The question asked is one of the least useful ever to appear in On Faith. No one knows if there is any conscious experience after death.

Silly is as silly does, so here's an appropriate reply:

A curious fellow died one day and found himself waiting in the long line of judgment. As he stood there he noticed that some souls were allowed to march right through the gates of heaven. Others, though, were led over to Satan who threw them into the burning pit.
But every so often, instead of hurling a poor soul into the fire, Satan would toss a soul off to one side into a small pile. After watching Satan do this several times, the fellow's curiosity got the best of him. So he strolled over and asked Satan, "Excuse me, Prince of Darkness," he said. "I'm waiting in line for judgment, but I couldn't help wondering, why are you tossing those people aside instead of flinging them into the fires of hell with the others?"

"Ah, those," Satan said with a groan. "They're all from Seattle. They're too wet to burn yet."

"This is the freedom God has given us", or is it the ability that has developed in mankind?

The difference is vast when considering what is implied.

"This is the freedom God has given us", or is it the ability that has developed in mankind?

The difference is vast when considering what is implied.