Rev. Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite is professor of theology at Chicago Theological Seminary and senior fellow at the Center for American Progress. She was president of CTS from 1998-2008. Her area of expertise is contextual theologies of liberation, specializing in issues of violence and violation. An ordained minister of the United Church of Christ since 1974, the “On Faith” panelist is the author or editor of thirteen books and has been a translator for two translations of the Bible. Her works include Casting Stones: Prostitution and Liberation in Asia and the United States (1996) and The New Testament and Psalms: An Inclusive Translation (1995). She edited and contributed to Adam, Eve and the Genome: Theology in Dialogue with the Human Genome Project (2003).
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Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite
Professor, Chicago Theological Seminary
Rev. Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite is professor of theology at Chicago Theological Seminary and senior fellow at the Center for American Progress. She was president of CTS from 1998-2008.
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For those saying we don't succomb to the ideas of today, you're right, we don't in many cases. In others we do. The sexism thing was handled nicely, as woman had less rights in the Bible by inspired prophets and leaders than woman have now period. Yet, they are still thought highly. As for the homosexual controversy, there have been studies that show many (not all, but many) men and women that consider themselves to be born homosexual/lesbian, there is a hormone imbalance in their brains. Look it up yourself, don't take my word for it. But that's a simple thing that can be "cured" as someone already put it. I don't condem homosexuals, or even look down on them, as I have friends that are homosexual. But the laws of God and the laws of man are not always the same. So if you don't like it, accept it. Nobody has to accept everything. People whine about not being accepted because they are homosexuals. Guess what? Homosexuals call me disgusting and wrong because I like women, hypocrites.
The "fundamentalist" segment who continue to practice polygamy are comprised of corrupt and deceitful men who seek power.
The author says that the Mormons seek to impose their religiosity on our society, I say that Mormons do not seek to impose anything on our society. However, the Mayo Clinic reports that "The benefits of a healthy marriage include lower rates of disease, a longer life span and a greater sense of well-being. Reasons include advantages of cohabitation, financial stability and strong support networks family life provides healthier". The mormon people will defend the family as the corner stone of our society. If we concentrate energy to strengthen the family unit our country better for it. What's wrong with that?
I can hardly believe the time and energy spent bashing The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
We have men and women (many of them LDS) dying for the freedoms this church practices and yet you try to smash that right by your thoughts that are not even acurate. Yhey are taken a piece here and a piece here, only to try to hurt others. I don't see where that is Christ like in any church.
If you spent the same amount of time on other churches you would find they have their own issues.
I am LDS and i pray for those men and women who serve in our military to protect our right to speech even if it is hurtful. I also pray for the leaders of the countries and other countries that they may find a solution to the hatered that travels the world. Last but not least I pray for people like some in this forum that try to tear down others.
You will not here from me again for this is a waist of time and energy that I would rather spend on helping the families of solders that might need it.
By the way i entered this sight from my church website LDS.org. If you want truth about your questions then go there and seek or ask. I certainly wouldn't ask a Catholic if I wanted to understand the Muslems.
I agree that there are no "Fundamentalist" segments of Mormonism.
Mormonism--which considers the authority of the Book of Mormon to come (more or less) directly from God, and to be absolutely internally consistent and true--is, by definition, "Fundamentalist."
I understand and support the choices of women to stay home to raise their children.
The "too many too early" comment was referring to women who, if it hadn't been for pressure from the mormon church, would have made a different personal choice. They were stressed out and over-extended, and would have chosen fewer children if they didn't believe that God would condemn them for doing so.
As for the suggestion that I'm talking of an era in the church that is long past, my story of being recruited for BYU happened only three or four years ago.
I was very active at church, and close with the bright women in my ward and stake. We had a vibrant book club where we read and discussed classic literature. And it would usually be towards the end of one of these discussions where someone would begin discussing her very private inner turmoil regarding child-bearing, education, sex, careers, etc. Thinking back on those stories now breaks my heart.
"I am confident that what Dallin Oaks meant when he said it is wrong to criticize leaders even if it's true, it is wrong for members to openly criticize and oppose a leader because of the threat of disorder and conflicts it could cause among different members. Even if it was true that a leader had done something wrong and there was indisputable evidence of it, it would still not be very Christian like to parade such evidence around in an open and public forum where it could cause more unnecessary damage and harm to that leader's personal reputation. Instead, such matters should be submitted to another authority in a more private forum where proper investigation and discipline action can take place."
This is an astonishing example of organizational servitude, and eerily similar to sentiments expressed by the party faithful of the 1960's era Russian Communist Party.
Church members, is Will's post representative of your thoughts on the matter?
This forum contains a number of references to church growth, including the lead-in by Susan Thistlethwaite. Hence I contribute the following, collected just yesterday for another WaPo forum. The data are from Mormon-friendly sites.
David G. Stewart, Jr., MD {church member & former missionary}
"The rapid growth of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been a frequent and recurring theme in the secular media.
...
A closer examination of growth and retention data demonstrates that LDS growth trends have been widely overstated. Annual LDS growth has progressively declined from over 5 percent in the late 1980s to less than 3 percent from 2000 to 2005.[11] Since 1990, LDS missionaries have been challenged to double the number of baptisms, but instead the number of baptisms per missionary has halved. During this same period, other international missionary-oriented faiths have reported accelerating growth, including the Seventh-Day Adventists, Southern Baptists, Assemblies of God, and Evangelical (5.6 percent annual growth)[12] and Pentecostal churches (7.3 percent annual growth). For 2004, 241,239 LDS convert baptisms were reported, the lowest number of converts since 1987. The number of convert baptisms increased to 272,845 in 2006, but both missionary productivity and the total number of baptisms remained well below the levels of the early 1990s. Even more cause for concern is the fact that little of the growth that occurs is real: while nearly 80 percent of LDS convert baptisms occur outside of the United States, barely one in four international converts becomes an active or participating member of the Church. Natural LDS growth has also fallen as the LDS birth rate has progressively declined. LDS church membership has continued to increase, but the rate of growth has slowed considerably."
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I have been reading through this post and must say that Mayan Elephant sure does have a lot of time on her hands, commenting after everyones post. If she spent half her time and energy on really productive things rather than criticizing everyone and everything the world would be a better place. If you left the church thats fine, but for someone who left the church you sure cant seem to leave it alone.
I applaud your efforts to move forth more choices for women. Even your posts will give more women a view of what other people think.
When I commented to my sister, who is a big advocate of LDS Women's Rights, how I noticed early in life that church leaders actively tried to include both sexes in their remarks, she said, "That is because of people like me."
So although I don't agree with your views of the Prophet Joseph Smith, it is because of people like you that other women enjoy a non-discriminating church.
I THOUGHT THIS MIGHT BE A GOOD WEBSITE TO READ. HOWEVER AFTER READING SOME OF THESE COMMENTS IT'S SEEM THAT AS A LATTER DAY SAINT I NEED TO DEFEND MYSELF. NOT THE CASE AND WON'T. MOST OR WHAT I READ AND OPINONS GIVEN WERE BASED ON A LINE HERE A WORD THERE AND THE ONLY ONES THAT NO WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT ARE THE ONE'S LIVING THEIR BELIEF. II DON'T SEE WHY THAT BOTHERS SO MANY. NO ONE IS HOLDING A GUN AT ANYONE MAKING THEM GO TO CHURCH. MOST PEOPLE ARE INDEED AFRAID OF THE TRUTH AND WHEN THEY HAVE THE GOSPEL THEY CAN'T LIVE UP TO WHAT THEY ACCEPTED SO THEREFORE WRITE A BUNCH OF MISINFORMED BLOGS.
GOD BLESS YOU AND THIS COUNTRY THAT ALLOWS YOU TO MISQUOTE AND LIE ON SUCH A LARGE VENUE.
For not having any comments about Smith's wives, you sure had a lot to say. That exclaimed my point very well. Almost too well. There are so many excuses and reaches to explain the why of it all, where all that really needs to be said is - Yes, that is true. For some reason you feel compelled to tell us that he did it, but there is still evidence that he is a prophet. Um, did you really think that anyone reading this, or anyone that sees you mowing your lawn on Saturday for that matter, was worried that you may no longer think he is a prophet? Why do we need that line in the sand regarding who believes and who doesn't, when all that said was that Smith had 34 wives before he died and then the church gave him 9 more.
You asked: " I am curious to know your thoughts and opinions what I have put forward in rebuttal of your opinion that God, Christ, and/or this church is sexist against women."
I did NOT say god was sexist.
I did NOT say Christ was sexist.
I said the LDS church was sexist.
Sexism involves attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender. It can also include discrimination which is more commonly applied, as you say, 'against women.' Your response shows that you read my comment as being an accusation of misogyny. While I do think that exists, it is certainly not what we were discussing. Regarding sexism in mormonism, I know that there is a promotion of roles for men and a promotion of roles and behavior for women. Why is that so embarrassing for Mormons that they cant acknowledge it without apology, or more, assigning that sexism to god or christ? And more, why is it considered an assault to point it out?
As an exclamation, you posted your thoughts about Priesthood and Motherhood. What more is there to say? Believe whatever you want, Will, but for the love of god, do not pretend that a philosophy that has Priesthood and Womanhood as compatible but separate roles, is not sexist. You cannot be a man and fit your Motherhood role and you cannot be a woman and have the Priesthood. That is sexism. It may not be misogyny in your opinion, but you cannot claim it is not sexism.
My belief in God or atheism or Krishna or Babe Ruth is not relevant. I am not saying that god is sexist. You on the other hand, admit to me that if the Mormon church is sexist, then god is sexist. The assumption there is that God is a Mormon. Not that he can't be, but, it is an assumption or faith-based belief nonetheless.
Almost the same can be said of Christ. You are assuming that he is Mormon to arrive at your assessment that I consider him sexist. That said, there is a bit more to Jesus' story. What I like about the story of Jesus, is that he was progressive. He changed a lot of stuff. He did not change everything, but he pushed a new and higher law. One that treated people much more equally than they were treated under the old laws. He moved the ball forward for all people. Though, clearly he didn't eradicate all the -isms (racism, sexism and more). I think a person or deity as radical as him, if he were alive and walking amongst us today, would be progressive and inclusive and continue to move the ball forward for all people, including poor people, sick people, women and homosexuals. Those are my thoughts, since you asked.
Your story about your mother is your story. I am not one to judge it any way. Only you know all the circumstances. I will say though that your speculation about her happiness and that it would have been greater had she stayed in a more traditional role, or in Mormonism, may have some basis in faith. Just a thought. I do not dismiss sexism simply because there is one or even a majority of women that are happy with the sexism and do not claim to have adverse effects. Nor do I claim that a single person, a minority or a majority of people, when miserable, are proof that their shared religion is sexist. The effects on people do not determine whether something is sexist. Sexism is defined simply by the opportunities and prescribed roles for all people of both sexes.
According to Thistlethwaite, "Conservative politicians and religious leaders have capitalized on fears of changing roles for women and the gay rights movement and thus both religion and society have become more conservative." Mormon leaders seem scared of women and gays. Additionally, they have commanded you and others to not criticize them, even if the criticism is true. That is not a progressive combination, but it may serve the uncriticizable leaders well nonetheless.
sidetracked on the debate of working moms vs. stay at home moms.
one of the tiredest debates. where we pit women against each other. and we all loose.
the stark reality is that most working mothers do not have a CHOICE about working for pay inside or outside their homes. egads. let's not turn this conversation into a truly low and sexist conversation about what mothers should and should not do with their lives.
and to women who have a real life active choice in whether they work for compensation inside or outside of their homes - yipee! many bras have been burned for this opportunity.
While the Mormon Church may not recognize any segments or off-shoots, they exist. This does not make them affiliations. However, it does not make those groups or people non-existent just because they are not affiliated.
Have you ever stopped to wonder, why why why, does the mormon church keep saying we dont like this association with polygamy and yet, it.will.not.go.away?
It is a great question. Unfortunately, the most common responses are: Antis just say that to make us look bad, Polygamy was only practiced by a few people, God said do it and God said stop it so everyone should drop it, Mormons do not practice polygamy anymore, its not us.
The whining is nearly constant. Hell, its a standard explanation on lds.org that *those* people are not part of us, you know, *those polygamist* people.
In my opinion, the reason this doesnt go away is that it is not dealt with honestly and openly. And, the biggest reason is that it is part of Joseph Smith's legacy.
The people that read the Book of Mormon and practice polygamy are a product of Joseph Smith. Mormons will not like that. But, where the hell else can you go to find the origins of this group? Joseph Smith started the faith that produced the current form of the LDS church. He started the faith that produced the Community of Christ, the Strangites and the Polygamists that follow his polygamist example.
Whitney did very well to explain many products of Smith's life and vision, not just the one that has more temples and stuff in 2007.
The Reverend Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite states that, “‘Plural marriage’ is still practiced by the more ‘fundamentalist’ segment of the Mormon church…” With all due respect to The Reverend, THERE ARE NO “SEGMENTS” OF THE MORMON CHURCH—“fundamentalist,” or otherwise! Warren Jeffs may call himself a “fundamentalist,” but he is NOT a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (nick-named, the Mormon Church). Helen Whitney, the producer and director of the PBS documentary, “The Mormons,” missed a great opportunity to clarify that misconception—but, unfortunately, she did not.
As a stay-at-home Mom who used to work as an Electrical Engineer, I can say that it is hard to find as much praise as I did when I worked as an engineer. I think I'm left-brained, but that doesn't stop me from tending my own children.
I always said that getting my education gave me more options, not less. I have a right to stay home with my children, even though many would think it is wrong not to continue in Electrical Engineering.
The documentary was very fortunate to have an active and life long member of the LDS church working alongside the other researchers. She was able to correct errors, bring up points of interest, steer people in the right direction, and overall, help make this presentation a balanced one, fair to Mormons and yet, full of acurate information.
As an Ex-Mormon who has been called an Anti,
and as the brother of the man who wrote the best book about religion ever,
let me state:
Mormons are Clearly in the mainstream of American religious life.
It can only be out of ignorance or bias that Mormonism is not accepted as a legitimate religion the same way that Catholicism, Baptists, Methodists are, and Islam should be.
Mormon beliefs aren't any stranger than most religious beliefs. Their members are great people and very good for the economy, as well as significantly better educated than the population at large.
I strongly disagree with their policy on Women and Gays, just as I do with Catholics, but they are certainly entitled to it, and are more like the rest of the country in this regard than not.
I think the Church is at a point where the smart members can have a serious discussion about the women and gay issues, and many are having them now. As the country is.
I've got no problem with the 13 articles of Mormon faith and don't understand why all the fuss. Romney for 2008! (subject to change if he really screws up in some debate or we find out he is hiding a couple wives out the in Utah.)
"None of the women I knew, growing up on or in college, completed much education besides me. Most women married young and had many children young, though it was clear that this was not a decision they arrived at without a great deal of conflict. I received many agonized letters and emails from devout LDS friends who were pregnant with too many children too early but were afraid to tell others how they felt."
I am one of those women that in your opinion had "too many children too early." If you don't want to be judged for your career choices then please don't judge women who CHOSE to stay home and raise children. By the way I also have a college education and am working on my masters degree and have never felt anything but support from my family and ward.
I am surprised that in all these discussions of what exactly LDS core beliefs are etc. , that the "Articles of Faith" have not yet been studied. (For those who don't know what they are you will find them below.) It, of course, doesn't cover all the complex areas of the faith, but it does give a very accurate picture of at least 13 core doctrines that ALL members of the church believe. Best of all, these are not based on my own opinions or of what someone thinks they believe, they are an actual set of doctrines that have always been taught.
"THE 13 ARTICLES OF FAITH
1 WE believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things. "
I would say that the LDS church has not so much moved into the mainstream, but that people are more aware and accepting that the doctrine and teachings of the LDS prophets are mostly consistent with Biblical prophets.
Therefore the world is adopting the faith like it has no other.
The LDS church does not control what individual members think or do, which highlights the faith of those members who represent the community in government.
A church is only as strong as its members and the LDS church appears to be increasing its strength rather than deminishing it like other Christian religions.
I predict that the LDS church will be there long after other religions have dissappeared because it holds true to the original biblical teachings and encourages good people to be better, regardless of their circumstances in life.
It expects the same from all its members and gives its members the same in return - though the more faithful obviously have the greater blessings.
There is no reason to fear the church - for if it is good it will only benefit the community as a whole.
You said that the LDS church is definitely not a Christian church because we have in our belief system things which are rejected by modern Christian theology. I was raised in one of these "Christian" churches, and became converted to the LDS church as a young adult. The reason I did is because for the first time in my life religion actually made SENSE! The "Mormon" church stands alone as the only church that truly worships Christ to the full extent of his earthly mission. I never understood the significance of Christ in the church I grew up in. All I saw was a ton of contradictions, and found no clearly-defined truth which I was seeking. The LDS church is the only church that doesn't descend from the many and confused congregations of men which sprang up during the great apostasy following Christ's death. The Bible foretells this apostasy and that the Lord will set his had a second time to re-establish His church. Christ's true gospel has been restored by the Lord through the Prophet Joseph Smith in these latter days. It is no surprise that it doesn't jive with the "Christianity" of today, or that followers of the faith are hated by the world. That is always how it has been. We must be willing to forsake the world for Christ's sake; for our faith to become strong enough to save us. Despite my initial prejudices and worldly suspicions towards this church, I have trusted the Lord and trusted my spiritual promptings and embraced this faith. I have been a member now for over 25 years, married in the temple and sealed to an eternal companion. I have had the joy of raising six children who have remained true to the faith. Through this church, I have experienced the greatest joy and peace in my life, which surpasses anything I could have imagined. Although it sometimes requires sacrifice, it is worth it manyfold. Sacrifices refine and define us and make us strong and unselfish. "By their fruits shall ye know them" is how Jesus referred to his followers. I know of no other church that exemplifies this as does the LDS or "Mormon" church. This church, whether the true restored Gospel of Jesus Christ or the greatest Fraud of history, is a work which has brought about much good in the world and in the lives of many. It is a force for right in this increasingly dark world. It is a bright beacon of hope that there is still good and selflessness in the this greedy, materialistic world. Isn't that what Christianity is all about? Why nit-pick on the details? If you open your heart and truly search with an open mind, I challenge you to find out for yourself rather than speculate and find fault. The invitation is extended to all to know for themselves in their own heart. Old-fashioned Christian values are the truth that has been lived by and accepted for millenia of the history of mankind. Now, as the last days approach, these values are under assault and people who adhere to them are considered "intolerant". Actually it is them who are intolerant, and are forcing the world to accept values which will ultimately destroy the family unit, and eventually, our whole society.
JIM
i dont care. so you are not christians in the traditional since. not my business - enjoy yourselves.
think that you are the only true path to enlightnment and paradise - good for you.
i dont care is you think god has the head of an elephant - 28 tits - and has sex with a turtle to make hippo's. not my concern.
i dont care what anyone believes - AS LONG AS THEY DO NOT ADVOCATE OR PRACTICE VIOLENCE TO ANYONE - OF ANY SEX - IN ANY PLACE - AND DO NOT FORCE CONVERSIONS OR REMAINING IN THEIR FAITH - then it does not bother me.
now all of the above my - in my religion - be considered wrong and require you to go to hell - but why should you care - you dont beleive as i do so its not a big deal to you.
so go about your business and i will go about mine and by the time we figure out which one of us is right it will be to late do do anyting about it.
John D: "It seems you speak of a Mormonism that has since passed on. Mormon women are currently in the work force in equal numbers and non-Mormon women. Mormon women are educated to get all the education they can. Most young Mormon women do have good educations. And from what I could tell at BYU, the pill is the drug of choice for recently married Mormon women."
John D, thanks for supporting women's rights. Unfortunately, the facts do not bear out your assessment of the Mormon experience for women.
In the current manual for adult instruction The Teachings of the Prophet Spencer Kimball, you will find an admonition to never engage into sex without exposing oneself to the risk of pregnancy.
That's the 2007 manual. Sexist bigotry is well and alive. And teenage women are still indoctrinated to avoid the pursuit of a career. For evidence go to the Mormon website lds.org and browse the Young Women's manuals. My main concern about being Mormon is the mindset and the mental health of my daughter.
It is true that many Mormon women work. Having children early, paying tithing, rising health care and housing costs, something has gotta to give. However, you know perfectly well that many of the working Mormon moms have to constantly justify their choice. Their righteousness is routinely questioned.
The Mormon apostle Boyd Packer said that it is necessary to make those women feel bad who have no choice but to work to dissuade those women who work for "selfish" reasons.
Those are the words of a guy who claims to be a prophet, seer, and revelator. It's disgusting and unethical but if we openly criticize him then according to Elder Oaks we ought to be excommunicated.
If we really love the church then we have to speak out about these abuses.
Latter Day Saints do explicitly reject the doctrine of the Trinity. In so doing they adhere to a version of Christianity that predates that traditional but incorrect doctrine.
After the death of the Apostles of Jesus, in an age of slow transportation and communication, Christianity lost its central authority. The far-flung bishops of the faith were left to their own devices as to purity of doctrine.
By 300 AD, Christians were highly divided on many issues, including the question of the nature of the Godhead. Many bishops, including the bishop of Rome held that God was three person in one -- the trinitarian view. Many others, including Arius, the bishop of Alexandria held that was incorrect, doubtless citing the many New Testament scenes in with Christ prays to the Father, speaks of the Father in the second person, receives Heavenly messengers from his Father and is seen (as He promised) on the right hand of the Father by Steven (as previously cited on this blog).
(As a young boy, of maybe 14, full of questions, growing up in a mainline Christian denomination, I came to the same view as Arius -- though I had never heard of him. I was well read in the New Testament. I took it seriously. But to me, believing that The Father and the Son are one being made the Atonement of Christ seem an incomprehensible contrivance. When I expressed doubt or asked questions, I was told it was all a beautiful mystery. I failed to see any beauty in it.)
After 300 AD, the Emperor Constantine was looking for something that might unify his empire and make administration of his his vast and diverse holdings more workable. He determined that those fast growing Christians might be he glue he sought.
But Christianity seemed to be divided about a very fundamental thing -- the very nature of God. That simply would not do. He had to get those Christians united if he was going to be able to use them to keep order in his world.
So he called the Council of Nicaea. The bishops came. They were still divided. Only after Constantine, himself not yet a Christian, came into the Council and personally intervened was unity achieved.
Constantine sided with the bishop of Rome. The result of the Council is still called the Nicene Creed -- the doctrinal source for all Christians who believe in the Trinity. Arius's writings were ordered burned, he supporters were banished. Constantine got his glue. Only on his deathbed did he actually become a Christian.
Belief in the Trinity is truly a defining doctrine for most Catholics and Protestants. But in rejecting it, Latter Day Saints are in good and ancient company.
It is such an important difference of opinion, such a pivotal doctrinal question, that it did not at all seem strange to me, when at age 19, I first heard about Joseph Smith's First Vision.
It was no wonder to me, that settling such a paramount issue, might involve a personal appearance to a 14-year-old boy by the both the Father and the Son, the one standing on the right hand of the other.
Latter Day Saints are Christians all right. they claim to adhere to the same doctrines as the Saints of old.
And, pardon me for saying it, most other denominations are followers of Constantine.
Statement in the article reads:
“Plural marriage is still practiced by the more “fundamentalist” segment of the Mormon church..."
The above statement was in the opening article about the LDS Church. May I point out to the author that there is no "fundamentalist segment" of the "Mormon Church". There are those who have chosen a polygamus lifetsyle and have been excommunucated from the "Mormon" Church because of it.
The fact that these groups choose to call themselves "Mormons" does not make them affiliated with the LDS Church in any manner.
Did you read your Bible? Straight from the Bible we have vivid accounts fo the conflict in heaven between Christ and Satan. IN HEAVEN, thank you. That's where Satan was. Even if you don't think we're all one big spiritual family, you have to admit he was THERE. Let's take a look:
Revelations 12:
7 And there was war IN HEAVEN: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon(that's Satan); and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more IN HEAVEN(that means they - Satan and his followers had been living there).
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud avoice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that well in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
How about another:
Isaiah 14
12 How art thou FALLEN FROM HEAVEN, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; (this is the important part)I WILL BE LIKE THE MOST HIGH.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Oviously he started out as someone important, eh? Not as some slimy serpent guy with a tail.
How about the separateness of God and Christ. The "Creed" you believe in that says they are one "mystical embodiment of God" is found nowhere in the scriptures. That was written about 300 years after Christ when no one could agree on how to define "God". The scriptuires are replete with accounts of Christ praying to his Father, hearing the voice of his Father (at his Baptism), Stephen seeng God and Christ standing side by side in his vision, Christ calling out to his Father to take away the bitter cup, Christ asking his Father to forgive his crucifiers - the list goes on. So there is plenty of evidence for our belief in God and Christ as separate beings. My favorite scripture that explains why Christ referred to He and the Father as "one" is found in John:
John 17
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, (here's the important part)that THEY MAY BE ONE, AS WE ARE.
...
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; (the important part) THAT THEY MAY BE ONE; EVEN AS WE ARE ONE
So He wants us to be one, just as He and the Father are one. This is talking about unity, not physical one-ness. Adam and Eve were told to become "one". There is scriptural precedent here.
So, don't write off our beliefs so quickly. There are valid reasons for them, and I dare say some of yours are on shaky ground, unless you really believe a group of medieval Bishops from 325AD who fought like cats and dogs with each other were "inspired".
what is that ECLATi crap?? I can't even understand that guy...all I wanted to say was really folks?? Really?? We are going to keep going around in circles on a subject that will not see any definant(sp) answers? The reason all of ya'll will keep shouting at eachother is because your minds are made up...scream all you want I hear only blahblah blahblah...If we as Christians spent more time following Christ the Messiah instead of screaming my God is better than your god....ya know i'll stop because it's not even going to help...
I do however want to ask Mr. Jacob Whatever what is all the nonesense about ECLATi really about how old are you..??
Again, by that same logic, and your fact, then Christ and all the biblical prophets and were sexist for not allowing women to ever be priests or elders or apostles, etc.
Do you label Christ as a hypocrite or as being sexist? Afterall, He too so often taught about freedom, freedom from pain, freedom from sin, freedom from misery, freedom from suffering.
Do you label Moses and other Old Testament Israelites and Jews as sexist too for never allowing women to become priests under the laws they were commanded to obey?
Doesn't that make foundations Judeo-Christianity as a whole sexist?
Then again, it's apparent you don't even have a conviction of any Judeo-Christian set of beliefs if you choose to worship a god that is female in nature so I don't expect you to try and defend traditional Jewish or Christian practices and beliefs with respect to this matter.
If being part of the LDS church or subscribing to the teachings and patterns as recorded in the Bible somehow makes you feel less powerful as a human being, or makes you feel in bondage in whatever way, then obviously you are free to choose you are free to go in whatever other direction makes you feel more fufilled and empowered and so does any LDS or other Christian woman who feels the same way as you.
If my wife ever walked away from the church with the same feelings and conviction as you, I of course would be disappointed, but I wouldn't split up with her over it. I would still support her and love her as the wife and mother that she is, and would still cherish her and if that puts her on a pedestal that she's not comfortable with, then she has her right to walk away from our relationship and as much as it would hurt, I would not hold her baack. My own mother divorced my father who loved her with all his heart because she felt "trapped" being married and she used to criticize church leaders and has fallen away from the church. She thought was going to be more free and empowered to somehow find more happiness in life. Perhaps she is more free in many ways, and perhaps she did have a newer kind of excitement for life for a period of time after she got the divorce, but now, several years after her falling away from the church and her husband, very and lonely and as much as I try to still console her and love her as my mother, which does bring some degree of happiness to her, she has made it clear to me that she is defintely not any happier and in fact feels a lot more depressed, miserable, and a lot less powerful in her current position in life.
This is a matter of fact. As you aptly point out, there is an option for men not available to women: the Priesthood (oft defined, btw, as The Power To Act In The Name Of God).
There is no quibbling about the accuracy of this fact. You, and others like you who choose to stay in the church, may find justifications for the fact. But it is a fact, nonetheless, that can be clearly seen during even a one hour visit to an LDS church meeting.
Separate is not equal. Never has been.
Regarding your point that the LDS church culturally reveres or honors women - It has been said that the top of a pedestal is as small as a jail cell. It is a very long place to fall from, I might add. Very difficult to stretch out up there.
It may be that some stay in the church feeling fine (substitute faithful, long suffering, righteou
All Comments (122)
For those saying we don't succomb to the ideas of today, you're right, we don't in many cases. In others we do. The sexism thing was handled nicely, as woman had less rights in the Bible by inspired prophets and leaders than woman have now period. Yet, they are still thought highly. As for the homosexual controversy, there have been studies that show many (not all, but many) men and women that consider themselves to be born homosexual/lesbian, there is a hormone imbalance in their brains. Look it up yourself, don't take my word for it. But that's a simple thing that can be "cured" as someone already put it. I don't condem homosexuals, or even look down on them, as I have friends that are homosexual. But the laws of God and the laws of man are not always the same. So if you don't like it, accept it. Nobody has to accept everything. People whine about not being accepted because they are homosexuals. Guess what? Homosexuals call me disgusting and wrong because I like women, hypocrites.
April 14, 2008 4:29 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 14, 2008 16:29
The "fundamentalist" segment who continue to practice polygamy are comprised of corrupt and deceitful men who seek power.
The author says that the Mormons seek to impose their religiosity on our society, I say that Mormons do not seek to impose anything on our society. However, the Mayo Clinic reports that "The benefits of a healthy marriage include lower rates of disease, a longer life span and a greater sense of well-being. Reasons include advantages of cohabitation, financial stability and strong support networks family life provides healthier". The mormon people will defend the family as the corner stone of our society. If we concentrate energy to strengthen the family unit our country better for it. What's wrong with that?
January 29, 2008 11:01 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 29, 2008 11:01
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Posted on July 5, 2007 23:44
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June 24, 2007 4:26 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 24, 2007 16:26
I can hardly believe the time and energy spent bashing The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
We have men and women (many of them LDS) dying for the freedoms this church practices and yet you try to smash that right by your thoughts that are not even acurate. Yhey are taken a piece here and a piece here, only to try to hurt others. I don't see where that is Christ like in any church.
If you spent the same amount of time on other churches you would find they have their own issues.
I am LDS and i pray for those men and women who serve in our military to protect our right to speech even if it is hurtful. I also pray for the leaders of the countries and other countries that they may find a solution to the hatered that travels the world. Last but not least I pray for people like some in this forum that try to tear down others.
You will not here from me again for this is a waist of time and energy that I would rather spend on helping the families of solders that might need it.
By the way i entered this sight from my church website LDS.org. If you want truth about your questions then go there and seek or ask. I certainly wouldn't ask a Catholic if I wanted to understand the Muslems.
June 24, 2007 12:36 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 24, 2007 00:36
I agree that there are no "Fundamentalist" segments of Mormonism.
Mormonism--which considers the authority of the Book of Mormon to come (more or less) directly from God, and to be absolutely internally consistent and true--is, by definition, "Fundamentalist."
May 8, 2007 1:10 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 8, 2007 13:10
I understand and support the choices of women to stay home to raise their children.
The "too many too early" comment was referring to women who, if it hadn't been for pressure from the mormon church, would have made a different personal choice. They were stressed out and over-extended, and would have chosen fewer children if they didn't believe that God would condemn them for doing so.
As for the suggestion that I'm talking of an era in the church that is long past, my story of being recruited for BYU happened only three or four years ago.
I was very active at church, and close with the bright women in my ward and stake. We had a vibrant book club where we read and discussed classic literature. And it would usually be towards the end of one of these discussions where someone would begin discussing her very private inner turmoil regarding child-bearing, education, sex, careers, etc. Thinking back on those stories now breaks my heart.
May 8, 2007 7:50 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 8, 2007 07:50
Will wrote (May 4, 2007 1:35 PM)
"I am confident that what Dallin Oaks meant when he said it is wrong to criticize leaders even if it's true, it is wrong for members to openly criticize and oppose a leader because of the threat of disorder and conflicts it could cause among different members. Even if it was true that a leader had done something wrong and there was indisputable evidence of it, it would still not be very Christian like to parade such evidence around in an open and public forum where it could cause more unnecessary damage and harm to that leader's personal reputation. Instead, such matters should be submitted to another authority in a more private forum where proper investigation and discipline action can take place."
This is an astonishing example of organizational servitude, and eerily similar to sentiments expressed by the party faithful of the 1960's era Russian Communist Party.
Church members, is Will's post representative of your thoughts on the matter?
May 7, 2007 9:24 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 7, 2007 21:24
This forum contains a number of references to church growth, including the lead-in by Susan Thistlethwaite. Hence I contribute the following, collected just yesterday for another WaPo forum. The data are from Mormon-friendly sites.
[1]
http://cumorah.com/lawoftheharvest.html#_Toc162146548
{An independent, pro-Mormon website}
David G. Stewart, Jr., MD {church member & former missionary}
"The rapid growth of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been a frequent and recurring theme in the secular media.
...
A closer examination of growth and retention data demonstrates that LDS growth trends have been widely overstated. Annual LDS growth has progressively declined from over 5 percent in the late 1980s to less than 3 percent from 2000 to 2005.[11] Since 1990, LDS missionaries have been challenged to double the number of baptisms, but instead the number of baptisms per missionary has halved. During this same period, other international missionary-oriented faiths have reported accelerating growth, including the Seventh-Day Adventists, Southern Baptists, Assemblies of God, and Evangelical (5.6 percent annual growth)[12] and Pentecostal churches (7.3 percent annual growth). For 2004, 241,239 LDS convert baptisms were reported, the lowest number of converts since 1987. The number of convert baptisms increased to 272,845 in 2006, but both missionary productivity and the total number of baptisms remained well below the levels of the early 1990s. Even more cause for concern is the fact that little of the growth that occurs is real: while nearly 80 percent of LDS convert baptisms occur outside of the United States, barely one in four international converts becomes an active or participating member of the Church. Natural LDS growth has also fallen as the LDS birth rate has progressively declined. LDS church membership has continued to increase, but the rate of growth has slowed considerably."
--------------------
[2]
http://messengerandadvocate.wordpress.com/tag/growth
{pro-Mormon; affiliated?}
data for year 2006
--------------------
from: Yearbook of American & Canadian Churches (2007)
Mormon Church: 5,690,672 members (North American)
church growth rate: 1.63 percent.
{US population approx: 300,000,000, Canadian approx: 33,100,000
Percentage of North Americans who are Mormons: less than 2%}
May 7, 2007 9:02 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 7, 2007 21:02
I have been reading through this post and must say that Mayan Elephant sure does have a lot of time on her hands, commenting after everyones post. If she spent half her time and energy on really productive things rather than criticizing everyone and everything the world would be a better place. If you left the church thats fine, but for someone who left the church you sure cant seem to leave it alone.
May 6, 2007 1:42 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 6, 2007 13:42
Mayan Elephant and Just One Woman:
I applaud your efforts to move forth more choices for women. Even your posts will give more women a view of what other people think.
When I commented to my sister, who is a big advocate of LDS Women's Rights, how I noticed early in life that church leaders actively tried to include both sexes in their remarks, she said, "That is because of people like me."
So although I don't agree with your views of the Prophet Joseph Smith, it is because of people like you that other women enjoy a non-discriminating church.
May 6, 2007 11:59 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 6, 2007 11:59
OOP'S IT LATE
THANKS MAYAN ELEPHANT.
GOOD NIGHT
BRUCE
May 6, 2007 1:06 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 6, 2007 01:06
Hey Burce:
Did you mean to type Bruce?
May 6, 2007 12:51 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 6, 2007 00:51
I THOUGHT THIS MIGHT BE A GOOD WEBSITE TO READ. HOWEVER AFTER READING SOME OF THESE COMMENTS IT'S SEEM THAT AS A LATTER DAY SAINT I NEED TO DEFEND MYSELF. NOT THE CASE AND WON'T. MOST OR WHAT I READ AND OPINONS GIVEN WERE BASED ON A LINE HERE A WORD THERE AND THE ONLY ONES THAT NO WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT ARE THE ONE'S LIVING THEIR BELIEF. II DON'T SEE WHY THAT BOTHERS SO MANY. NO ONE IS HOLDING A GUN AT ANYONE MAKING THEM GO TO CHURCH. MOST PEOPLE ARE INDEED AFRAID OF THE TRUTH AND WHEN THEY HAVE THE GOSPEL THEY CAN'T LIVE UP TO WHAT THEY ACCEPTED SO THEREFORE WRITE A BUNCH OF MISINFORMED BLOGS.
GOD BLESS YOU AND THIS COUNTRY THAT ALLOWS YOU TO MISQUOTE AND LIE ON SUCH A LARGE VENUE.
May 6, 2007 12:45 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 6, 2007 00:45
Will:
For not having any comments about Smith's wives, you sure had a lot to say. That exclaimed my point very well. Almost too well. There are so many excuses and reaches to explain the why of it all, where all that really needs to be said is - Yes, that is true. For some reason you feel compelled to tell us that he did it, but there is still evidence that he is a prophet. Um, did you really think that anyone reading this, or anyone that sees you mowing your lawn on Saturday for that matter, was worried that you may no longer think he is a prophet? Why do we need that line in the sand regarding who believes and who doesn't, when all that said was that Smith had 34 wives before he died and then the church gave him 9 more.
You asked: " I am curious to know your thoughts and opinions what I have put forward in rebuttal of your opinion that God, Christ, and/or this church is sexist against women."
I did NOT say god was sexist.
I did NOT say Christ was sexist.
I said the LDS church was sexist.
Sexism involves attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender. It can also include discrimination which is more commonly applied, as you say, 'against women.' Your response shows that you read my comment as being an accusation of misogyny. While I do think that exists, it is certainly not what we were discussing. Regarding sexism in mormonism, I know that there is a promotion of roles for men and a promotion of roles and behavior for women. Why is that so embarrassing for Mormons that they cant acknowledge it without apology, or more, assigning that sexism to god or christ? And more, why is it considered an assault to point it out?
As an exclamation, you posted your thoughts about Priesthood and Motherhood. What more is there to say? Believe whatever you want, Will, but for the love of god, do not pretend that a philosophy that has Priesthood and Womanhood as compatible but separate roles, is not sexist. You cannot be a man and fit your Motherhood role and you cannot be a woman and have the Priesthood. That is sexism. It may not be misogyny in your opinion, but you cannot claim it is not sexism.
My belief in God or atheism or Krishna or Babe Ruth is not relevant. I am not saying that god is sexist. You on the other hand, admit to me that if the Mormon church is sexist, then god is sexist. The assumption there is that God is a Mormon. Not that he can't be, but, it is an assumption or faith-based belief nonetheless.
Almost the same can be said of Christ. You are assuming that he is Mormon to arrive at your assessment that I consider him sexist. That said, there is a bit more to Jesus' story. What I like about the story of Jesus, is that he was progressive. He changed a lot of stuff. He did not change everything, but he pushed a new and higher law. One that treated people much more equally than they were treated under the old laws. He moved the ball forward for all people. Though, clearly he didn't eradicate all the -isms (racism, sexism and more). I think a person or deity as radical as him, if he were alive and walking amongst us today, would be progressive and inclusive and continue to move the ball forward for all people, including poor people, sick people, women and homosexuals. Those are my thoughts, since you asked.
Your story about your mother is your story. I am not one to judge it any way. Only you know all the circumstances. I will say though that your speculation about her happiness and that it would have been greater had she stayed in a more traditional role, or in Mormonism, may have some basis in faith. Just a thought. I do not dismiss sexism simply because there is one or even a majority of women that are happy with the sexism and do not claim to have adverse effects. Nor do I claim that a single person, a minority or a majority of people, when miserable, are proof that their shared religion is sexist. The effects on people do not determine whether something is sexist. Sexism is defined simply by the opportunities and prescribed roles for all people of both sexes.
According to Thistlethwaite, "Conservative politicians and religious leaders have capitalized on fears of changing roles for women and the gay rights movement and thus both religion and society have become more conservative." Mormon leaders seem scared of women and gays. Additionally, they have commanded you and others to not criticize them, even if the criticism is true. That is not a progressive combination, but it may serve the uncriticizable leaders well nonetheless.
May 6, 2007 12:03 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 6, 2007 00:03
to so many posters:
sidetracked on the debate of working moms vs. stay at home moms.
one of the tiredest debates. where we pit women against each other. and we all loose.
the stark reality is that most working mothers do not have a CHOICE about working for pay inside or outside their homes. egads. let's not turn this conversation into a truly low and sexist conversation about what mothers should and should not do with their lives.
and to women who have a real life active choice in whether they work for compensation inside or outside of their homes - yipee! many bras have been burned for this opportunity.
oh, to make real choices available to women....
May 5, 2007 11:38 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 23:38
Will:
WWMED?
What Would Mayan Elephant Do? or in this case - WWMET?
What Would Mayan Elephant Type?
Can't wait to see the wise pachyderym's response to your posts....
May 5, 2007 11:31 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 23:31
Actually, Whitney did a great job.
While the Mormon Church may not recognize any segments or off-shoots, they exist. This does not make them affiliations. However, it does not make those groups or people non-existent just because they are not affiliated.
Have you ever stopped to wonder, why why why, does the mormon church keep saying we dont like this association with polygamy and yet, it.will.not.go.away?
It is a great question. Unfortunately, the most common responses are: Antis just say that to make us look bad, Polygamy was only practiced by a few people, God said do it and God said stop it so everyone should drop it, Mormons do not practice polygamy anymore, its not us.
The whining is nearly constant. Hell, its a standard explanation on lds.org that *those* people are not part of us, you know, *those polygamist* people.
In my opinion, the reason this doesnt go away is that it is not dealt with honestly and openly. And, the biggest reason is that it is part of Joseph Smith's legacy.
The people that read the Book of Mormon and practice polygamy are a product of Joseph Smith. Mormons will not like that. But, where the hell else can you go to find the origins of this group? Joseph Smith started the faith that produced the current form of the LDS church. He started the faith that produced the Community of Christ, the Strangites and the Polygamists that follow his polygamist example.
Whitney did very well to explain many products of Smith's life and vision, not just the one that has more temples and stuff in 2007.
May 5, 2007 10:02 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 22:02
The Reverend Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite states that, “‘Plural marriage’ is still practiced by the more ‘fundamentalist’ segment of the Mormon church…” With all due respect to The Reverend, THERE ARE NO “SEGMENTS” OF THE MORMON CHURCH—“fundamentalist,” or otherwise! Warren Jeffs may call himself a “fundamentalist,” but he is NOT a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (nick-named, the Mormon Church). Helen Whitney, the producer and director of the PBS documentary, “The Mormons,” missed a great opportunity to clarify that misconception—but, unfortunately, she did not.
May 5, 2007 9:27 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 21:27
As a stay-at-home Mom who used to work as an Electrical Engineer, I can say that it is hard to find as much praise as I did when I worked as an engineer. I think I'm left-brained, but that doesn't stop me from tending my own children.
I always said that getting my education gave me more options, not less. I have a right to stay home with my children, even though many would think it is wrong not to continue in Electrical Engineering.
May 5, 2007 8:54 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 20:54
Thank you PJ,
I've thought about typing up the 13 articles myself, so I'm glad you beat me to it. Nice that Glen also appreciated it.
Thank YOU Jim Hale, Well said.
Thank you Will
May 5, 2007 8:52 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 20:52
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May 5, 2007 7:23 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 19:23
The documentary was very fortunate to have an active and life long member of the LDS church working alongside the other researchers. She was able to correct errors, bring up points of interest, steer people in the right direction, and overall, help make this presentation a balanced one, fair to Mormons and yet, full of acurate information.
May 5, 2007 6:16 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 18:16
As an Ex-Mormon who has been called an Anti,
and as the brother of the man who wrote the best book about religion ever,
let me state:
Mormons are Clearly in the mainstream of American religious life.
It can only be out of ignorance or bias that Mormonism is not accepted as a legitimate religion the same way that Catholicism, Baptists, Methodists are, and Islam should be.
Mormon beliefs aren't any stranger than most religious beliefs. Their members are great people and very good for the economy, as well as significantly better educated than the population at large.
I strongly disagree with their policy on Women and Gays, just as I do with Catholics, but they are certainly entitled to it, and are more like the rest of the country in this regard than not.
I think the Church is at a point where the smart members can have a serious discussion about the women and gay issues, and many are having them now. As the country is.
May 5, 2007 6:11 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 18:11
I've got no problem with the 13 articles of Mormon faith and don't understand why all the fuss. Romney for 2008! (subject to change if he really screws up in some debate or we find out he is hiding a couple wives out the in Utah.)
May 5, 2007 3:43 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 15:43
"None of the women I knew, growing up on or in college, completed much education besides me. Most women married young and had many children young, though it was clear that this was not a decision they arrived at without a great deal of conflict. I received many agonized letters and emails from devout LDS friends who were pregnant with too many children too early but were afraid to tell others how they felt."
I am one of those women that in your opinion had "too many children too early." If you don't want to be judged for your career choices then please don't judge women who CHOSE to stay home and raise children. By the way I also have a college education and am working on my masters degree and have never felt anything but support from my family and ward.
May 5, 2007 3:39 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 15:39
I am surprised that in all these discussions of what exactly LDS core beliefs are etc. , that the "Articles of Faith" have not yet been studied. (For those who don't know what they are you will find them below.) It, of course, doesn't cover all the complex areas of the faith, but it does give a very accurate picture of at least 13 core doctrines that ALL members of the church believe. Best of all, these are not based on my own opinions or of what someone thinks they believe, they are an actual set of doctrines that have always been taught.
"THE 13 ARTICLES OF FAITH
1 WE believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things. "
May 5, 2007 2:15 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 14:15
Hey, where's my post? I spent an hour responding to your blog and you axed it? It wasn't out of line with any other post here. Please post it.
May 5, 2007 1:59 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 13:59
Well said Aiden Smith! So nice to read an intelligent, thoughtful comment from a person who obviously endevours to live the teachings of the Master.
But boy aren't there some wacko's about on these blogs !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Alas, I should not be sitting in judement of others and their mental condition & capacities!
May 5, 2007 12:31 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 12:31
I would say that the LDS church has not so much moved into the mainstream, but that people are more aware and accepting that the doctrine and teachings of the LDS prophets are mostly consistent with Biblical prophets.
Therefore the world is adopting the faith like it has no other.
The LDS church does not control what individual members think or do, which highlights the faith of those members who represent the community in government.
A church is only as strong as its members and the LDS church appears to be increasing its strength rather than deminishing it like other Christian religions.
I predict that the LDS church will be there long after other religions have dissappeared because it holds true to the original biblical teachings and encourages good people to be better, regardless of their circumstances in life.
It expects the same from all its members and gives its members the same in return - though the more faithful obviously have the greater blessings.
There is no reason to fear the church - for if it is good it will only benefit the community as a whole.
May 5, 2007 11:39 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 11:39
((((((((((((( Peace-Love-Rock and ROMNEY! )))))))))))
May 5, 2007 11:32 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 11:32
Peter:
You said that the LDS church is definitely not a Christian church because we have in our belief system things which are rejected by modern Christian theology. I was raised in one of these "Christian" churches, and became converted to the LDS church as a young adult. The reason I did is because for the first time in my life religion actually made SENSE! The "Mormon" church stands alone as the only church that truly worships Christ to the full extent of his earthly mission. I never understood the significance of Christ in the church I grew up in. All I saw was a ton of contradictions, and found no clearly-defined truth which I was seeking. The LDS church is the only church that doesn't descend from the many and confused congregations of men which sprang up during the great apostasy following Christ's death. The Bible foretells this apostasy and that the Lord will set his had a second time to re-establish His church. Christ's true gospel has been restored by the Lord through the Prophet Joseph Smith in these latter days. It is no surprise that it doesn't jive with the "Christianity" of today, or that followers of the faith are hated by the world. That is always how it has been. We must be willing to forsake the world for Christ's sake; for our faith to become strong enough to save us. Despite my initial prejudices and worldly suspicions towards this church, I have trusted the Lord and trusted my spiritual promptings and embraced this faith. I have been a member now for over 25 years, married in the temple and sealed to an eternal companion. I have had the joy of raising six children who have remained true to the faith. Through this church, I have experienced the greatest joy and peace in my life, which surpasses anything I could have imagined. Although it sometimes requires sacrifice, it is worth it manyfold. Sacrifices refine and define us and make us strong and unselfish. "By their fruits shall ye know them" is how Jesus referred to his followers. I know of no other church that exemplifies this as does the LDS or "Mormon" church. This church, whether the true restored Gospel of Jesus Christ or the greatest Fraud of history, is a work which has brought about much good in the world and in the lives of many. It is a force for right in this increasingly dark world. It is a bright beacon of hope that there is still good and selflessness in the this greedy, materialistic world. Isn't that what Christianity is all about? Why nit-pick on the details? If you open your heart and truly search with an open mind, I challenge you to find out for yourself rather than speculate and find fault. The invitation is extended to all to know for themselves in their own heart. Old-fashioned Christian values are the truth that has been lived by and accepted for millenia of the history of mankind. Now, as the last days approach, these values are under assault and people who adhere to them are considered "intolerant". Actually it is them who are intolerant, and are forcing the world to accept values which will ultimately destroy the family unit, and eventually, our whole society.
May 5, 2007 10:59 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 10:59
JIM
i dont care. so you are not christians in the traditional since. not my business - enjoy yourselves.
think that you are the only true path to enlightnment and paradise - good for you.
i dont care is you think god has the head of an elephant - 28 tits - and has sex with a turtle to make hippo's. not my concern.
i dont care what anyone believes - AS LONG AS THEY DO NOT ADVOCATE OR PRACTICE VIOLENCE TO ANYONE - OF ANY SEX - IN ANY PLACE - AND DO NOT FORCE CONVERSIONS OR REMAINING IN THEIR FAITH - then it does not bother me.
now all of the above my - in my religion - be considered wrong and require you to go to hell - but why should you care - you dont beleive as i do so its not a big deal to you.
so go about your business and i will go about mine and by the time we figure out which one of us is right it will be to late do do anyting about it.
May 5, 2007 10:20 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 10:20
John D: "It seems you speak of a Mormonism that has since passed on. Mormon women are currently in the work force in equal numbers and non-Mormon women. Mormon women are educated to get all the education they can. Most young Mormon women do have good educations. And from what I could tell at BYU, the pill is the drug of choice for recently married Mormon women."
John D, thanks for supporting women's rights. Unfortunately, the facts do not bear out your assessment of the Mormon experience for women.
In the current manual for adult instruction The Teachings of the Prophet Spencer Kimball, you will find an admonition to never engage into sex without exposing oneself to the risk of pregnancy.
That's the 2007 manual. Sexist bigotry is well and alive. And teenage women are still indoctrinated to avoid the pursuit of a career. For evidence go to the Mormon website lds.org and browse the Young Women's manuals. My main concern about being Mormon is the mindset and the mental health of my daughter.
It is true that many Mormon women work. Having children early, paying tithing, rising health care and housing costs, something has gotta to give. However, you know perfectly well that many of the working Mormon moms have to constantly justify their choice. Their righteousness is routinely questioned.
The Mormon apostle Boyd Packer said that it is necessary to make those women feel bad who have no choice but to work to dissuade those women who work for "selfish" reasons.
Those are the words of a guy who claims to be a prophet, seer, and revelator. It's disgusting and unethical but if we openly criticize him then according to Elder Oaks we ought to be excommunicated.
If we really love the church then we have to speak out about these abuses.
May 5, 2007 9:46 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 09:46
Beautifully said, Jim
May 5, 2007 8:04 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 08:04
Thankful, Will,
Thanks for your answers.
May 5, 2007 5:57 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 05:57
Latter Day Saints do explicitly reject the doctrine of the Trinity. In so doing they adhere to a version of Christianity that predates that traditional but incorrect doctrine.
After the death of the Apostles of Jesus, in an age of slow transportation and communication, Christianity lost its central authority. The far-flung bishops of the faith were left to their own devices as to purity of doctrine.
By 300 AD, Christians were highly divided on many issues, including the question of the nature of the Godhead. Many bishops, including the bishop of Rome held that God was three person in one -- the trinitarian view. Many others, including Arius, the bishop of Alexandria held that was incorrect, doubtless citing the many New Testament scenes in with Christ prays to the Father, speaks of the Father in the second person, receives Heavenly messengers from his Father and is seen (as He promised) on the right hand of the Father by Steven (as previously cited on this blog).
(As a young boy, of maybe 14, full of questions, growing up in a mainline Christian denomination, I came to the same view as Arius -- though I had never heard of him. I was well read in the New Testament. I took it seriously. But to me, believing that The Father and the Son are one being made the Atonement of Christ seem an incomprehensible contrivance. When I expressed doubt or asked questions, I was told it was all a beautiful mystery. I failed to see any beauty in it.)
After 300 AD, the Emperor Constantine was looking for something that might unify his empire and make administration of his his vast and diverse holdings more workable. He determined that those fast growing Christians might be he glue he sought.
But Christianity seemed to be divided about a very fundamental thing -- the very nature of God. That simply would not do. He had to get those Christians united if he was going to be able to use them to keep order in his world.
So he called the Council of Nicaea. The bishops came. They were still divided. Only after Constantine, himself not yet a Christian, came into the Council and personally intervened was unity achieved.
Constantine sided with the bishop of Rome. The result of the Council is still called the Nicene Creed -- the doctrinal source for all Christians who believe in the Trinity. Arius's writings were ordered burned, he supporters were banished. Constantine got his glue. Only on his deathbed did he actually become a Christian.
Belief in the Trinity is truly a defining doctrine for most Catholics and Protestants. But in rejecting it, Latter Day Saints are in good and ancient company.
It is such an important difference of opinion, such a pivotal doctrinal question, that it did not at all seem strange to me, when at age 19, I first heard about Joseph Smith's First Vision.
It was no wonder to me, that settling such a paramount issue, might involve a personal appearance to a 14-year-old boy by the both the Father and the Son, the one standing on the right hand of the other.
Latter Day Saints are Christians all right. they claim to adhere to the same doctrines as the Saints of old.
And, pardon me for saying it, most other denominations are followers of Constantine.
May 5, 2007 2:37 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 02:37
you sound like my (many years ago) seminary teacher
May 5, 2007 1:44 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 01:44
Statement in the article reads:
“Plural marriage is still practiced by the more “fundamentalist” segment of the Mormon church..."
The above statement was in the opening article about the LDS Church. May I point out to the author that there is no "fundamentalist segment" of the "Mormon Church". There are those who have chosen a polygamus lifetsyle and have been excommunucated from the "Mormon" Church because of it.
The fact that these groups choose to call themselves "Mormons" does not make them affiliated with the LDS Church in any manner.
May 5, 2007 12:44 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 00:44
Peter and others:
Did you read your Bible? Straight from the Bible we have vivid accounts fo the conflict in heaven between Christ and Satan. IN HEAVEN, thank you. That's where Satan was. Even if you don't think we're all one big spiritual family, you have to admit he was THERE. Let's take a look:
Revelations 12:
7 And there was war IN HEAVEN: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon(that's Satan); and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more IN HEAVEN(that means they - Satan and his followers had been living there).
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud avoice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that well in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
How about another:
Isaiah 14
12 How art thou FALLEN FROM HEAVEN, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; (this is the important part)I WILL BE LIKE THE MOST HIGH.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Oviously he started out as someone important, eh? Not as some slimy serpent guy with a tail.
How about the separateness of God and Christ. The "Creed" you believe in that says they are one "mystical embodiment of God" is found nowhere in the scriptures. That was written about 300 years after Christ when no one could agree on how to define "God". The scriptuires are replete with accounts of Christ praying to his Father, hearing the voice of his Father (at his Baptism), Stephen seeng God and Christ standing side by side in his vision, Christ calling out to his Father to take away the bitter cup, Christ asking his Father to forgive his crucifiers - the list goes on. So there is plenty of evidence for our belief in God and Christ as separate beings. My favorite scripture that explains why Christ referred to He and the Father as "one" is found in John:
John 17
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, (here's the important part)that THEY MAY BE ONE, AS WE ARE.
...
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; (the important part) THAT THEY MAY BE ONE; EVEN AS WE ARE ONE
So He wants us to be one, just as He and the Father are one. This is talking about unity, not physical one-ness. Adam and Eve were told to become "one". There is scriptural precedent here.
So, don't write off our beliefs so quickly. There are valid reasons for them, and I dare say some of yours are on shaky ground, unless you really believe a group of medieval Bishops from 325AD who fought like cats and dogs with each other were "inspired".
Neal
May 4, 2007 9:55 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 21:55
what is that ECLATi crap?? I can't even understand that guy...all I wanted to say was really folks?? Really?? We are going to keep going around in circles on a subject that will not see any definant(sp) answers? The reason all of ya'll will keep shouting at eachother is because your minds are made up...scream all you want I hear only blahblah blahblah...If we as Christians spent more time following Christ the Messiah instead of screaming my God is better than your god....ya know i'll stop because it's not even going to help...
I do however want to ask Mr. Jacob Whatever what is all the nonesense about ECLATi really about how old are you..??
May 4, 2007 9:55 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 21:55
Just One Woman:
Again, by that same logic, and your fact, then Christ and all the biblical prophets and were sexist for not allowing women to ever be priests or elders or apostles, etc.
Do you label Christ as a hypocrite or as being sexist? Afterall, He too so often taught about freedom, freedom from pain, freedom from sin, freedom from misery, freedom from suffering.
Do you label Moses and other Old Testament Israelites and Jews as sexist too for never allowing women to become priests under the laws they were commanded to obey?
Doesn't that make foundations Judeo-Christianity as a whole sexist?
Then again, it's apparent you don't even have a conviction of any Judeo-Christian set of beliefs if you choose to worship a god that is female in nature so I don't expect you to try and defend traditional Jewish or Christian practices and beliefs with respect to this matter.
If being part of the LDS church or subscribing to the teachings and patterns as recorded in the Bible somehow makes you feel less powerful as a human being, or makes you feel in bondage in whatever way, then obviously you are free to choose you are free to go in whatever other direction makes you feel more fufilled and empowered and so does any LDS or other Christian woman who feels the same way as you.
If my wife ever walked away from the church with the same feelings and conviction as you, I of course would be disappointed, but I wouldn't split up with her over it. I would still support her and love her as the wife and mother that she is, and would still cherish her and if that puts her on a pedestal that she's not comfortable with, then she has her right to walk away from our relationship and as much as it would hurt, I would not hold her baack. My own mother divorced my father who loved her with all his heart because she felt "trapped" being married and she used to criticize church leaders and has fallen away from the church. She thought was going to be more free and empowered to somehow find more happiness in life. Perhaps she is more free in many ways, and perhaps she did have a newer kind of excitement for life for a period of time after she got the divorce, but now, several years after her falling away from the church and her husband, very and lonely and as much as I try to still console her and love her as my mother, which does bring some degree of happiness to her, she has made it clear to me that she is defintely not any happier and in fact feels a lot more depressed, miserable, and a lot less powerful in her current position in life.
May 4, 2007 9:49 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 21:49
Will:
As to what god thinks of women?
She adores them.
May 4, 2007 8:44 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 20:44
Will:
The Mormon church structure is sexist.
This is a matter of fact. As you aptly point out, there is an option for men not available to women: the Priesthood (oft defined, btw, as The Power To Act In The Name Of God).
There is no quibbling about the accuracy of this fact. You, and others like you who choose to stay in the church, may find justifications for the fact. But it is a fact, nonetheless, that can be clearly seen during even a one hour visit to an LDS church meeting.
Separate is not equal. Never has been.
Regarding your point that the LDS church culturally reveres or honors women - It has been said that the top of a pedestal is as small as a jail cell. It is a very long place to fall from, I might add. Very difficult to stretch out up there.
It may be that some stay in the church feeling fine (substitute faithful, long suffering, righteou