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I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that Rev. Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite's favourite theologian is Jurgen Moltmann. I've noticed very similar theodicies between the two.

Allan

How touching, that a supposedly all-powerful deity "weeps" when the finite world he supposedly created and governs is rife with pain and misery.

God, being in control of the universe, can prevent suffering whenever He sees fit, but wherever free will exists, consequences of choice must also exist. We refuse to remember that we are the ones who betrayed God, not vice versa. We are the ones who listened to the lies of the evil one in the Garden of Eden. We chose to mistrust the heart of God. In breaking the one command He gave us, we set in motion a life of breaking His commands.

Being able to discipline oneself for the benefit of others is the very essence of maturity. Shantideva said, “All the joy the world contains, Has come through wishing happiness for others. All the misery the world contains, Has come through wanting pleasure for oneself (at the expense of others).” How we spend our time shapes who we are, and how we assemble the persons we are is cause for social concern. What examples are adults, entrusted with the awesome responsibility for their care, to the rapidly maturing next generation who will impact our society positively or negatively depending on to what we expose them. We have experienced the natural progression of an unguarded nation towards neglect, corruption and the loss of idealism. When awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1989, the Dalai Lama said in his lecture, “…For if we each selfishly pursue only what we believe to be in our own interest, without caring about the needs of others, we end up harming not only others but also ourselves…” One does not have far to look to witness the chaos and devastation caused in our society due to our turning away as a nation from our Judeo-Christian roots. Our culture is rotting. Just listen to the lyrics of popular songs, pick up a book or magazine, view a movie or television show. Pay attention to the violence permeating our communities, the disrespect and lack of courtesy displayed by all, judicial tyranny, and the neglect of and abuse directed at women. (Could this be a direct result of pornography? Duh!) Then consider that perhaps we are allowing the wrong input in our lives and the lives of those who have been entrusted to our care. After all, we are raising our next generation of leaders!!! Words like diversity, pluralism and tolerance have anesthetized us to the reality of good and evil. Tolerance is the cultivation of an attitude of indifference to things we see happening around us. In the name of peace, we tolerate evil. In the name of tolerance, we accept sin and call it freedom of speech or freedom of sexual persuasion. Albert Einstein once said, “The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don’t do anything about it.” We dare not stand up for what we believe for fear of being labeled intolerant. Tolerance sees your sin and embraces it. Grace sees your sin and hands you over to Christ's healing embrace.

God cannot make us choose to abide with Him. For now, God, tormented, waits upon us through one holocaust after another. satan’s best deception is its general success in concealing its own reality from the human mind. Most people live in such naivete regarding evil. What will it take for us to take evil seriously? satan lashes out on the earth like a madman, setting people against each other all over the globe. it devastates many lives through starvation, alcoholism, substance abuse and pornography. satan is at work in the holocaust of violent, disrespecting aborting of babies; narcissism; materialism; elitism; and the self-absorption we wallow in when we do not ensure our next generation is brought up in a culture with enriching, wholesome values. Failing to label evil evil misleads us about the world in which we live and our necessity for God’s grace, the only real answer and hope for any of us. If you are not living in touch with God, it is easy to blame Him or pass judgment on Him. We experience suffering and temptation because mankind chose to follow satan. Lurking in the heart of man, evil will erupt when it is permitted to act unimpeded.

Entrusted with the awesome responsibility of my children’s care, I am concerned about how their generation is being raised, to what they are being exposed, and the examples they have in their lives. Are they being enriched in mind, spirit and character? They all need highly esteemed mentors to guide them along the path to liberty. If we don’t stand for something, we will fall for anything. “The humblest citizen of all the land, when clad in the armor of a righteous cause, is stronger than all the hosts of Error,” - William Jennings Bryan. Hopefully, seeking our own pleasure is not the measure of our lives. We are called to be intolerant in love. Why not live as Philippians 4:8 instructs us to: Whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. God is reaching out to rescue us … God made nature to sing His praises, to declare His glory and to love Him. He made humans with the ability to choose. He could have ordered our obedience; instead, he calls for our heart.

The events that took place at Va. Tech Monday are horrible indeed. I offer for your own use and in offering pastoral care to others a sermon on "Prayer and Tragedy" posted below.

In Christ,

John M. Crowe, D.Min., APC
Incapacity Leave
Chair Committee on Disability Concerns
nccumcmentalhealth.org

On September 9, 2001, a sermon was preached from Psalm 139:1-6, 13-18. Psalm 139 contains King David's joyous reflections upon the truth that God knows. Throughout King David's obstacle filled life, he learned the security of living in relationship with God. David's Psalms express his certainty that God knew and understood the depths of his words. So, he poured them all out before God in times of tragedy, crisis, and when godless foes attacked him.

Two days after the preaching of the sermon on Psalm 139, the tragic events of 9/11 took place. People gathered together to pray. How comforting it is to know in times like those that God knows and understands the depths of our words when we pour them all out before Jesus in times of tragedy, and crisis.

According to Psalm 139, God knows the very depths of your soul. God knows what you are saying to him in prayer even better than you do. Isn't this what we are told in Romans 8:26 about the Holy Spirit helping us.26 "In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness.We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express."

As we focus on prayer, remember last year's national tragedy, and focus on the tragedies of our own or of others, I

Human tragedy cuts deep. It is very painful. The Bible says in Ephesians 6 that your real struggle with tragedy, suffering, and evil in the world is not a fight against people on earth. You are fighting against spiritual powers of evil that attack outwardly through others who yield themselves to evil attitudes and actions. You also fight against spiritual power of evil that attack your soul in hope of leading you into evil attitudes and actions. The strongest attacks upon your soul always come in times of great tragedy and crisis. These attacks can be overcome through prayer. You can do this by asking God daily to grant you wisdom and courage for the living of these days. Then, God's grace will save you from weak resignation to the evils you deplore.

Fulfilling the Bible's call to be angry and yet not sin is very difficult when you are in the middle of a painful crisis. Barnacles on a wooden ship are as bad for the ship as for anyone who knocked up against them for their cuts are painful. Some find their lives shipwrecked after such experiences with the barnacle like tragedies of life by becoming a barnacle themselves.

If you forever nurse the pain, you will never be free to love again. Also, if you do not feel the pain of your experience with the barnacle like tragedies of life, then you become numb and remain naive. Feeling the pain and giving it to God for his healing work as well as his dealing with those responsible in prayer is the biblical way to a better day. This is much healthier than feeding the pain and holding onto it as if that is somehow going to accomplish something. Not to forgive digs a dark and dreary day. However, to forgive brings about a better day.

To forgive means taking others off of your hook and placing them on God's hook. Such a prayerful response by God's free grace through Jesus Christ can make you a better person. I am convinced that a lot of people's lives' are shipwrecked in a crisis by their living in self-pity. Bitter self-pity, unfocused anger, loveless fears, and wounded pride will shipwreck you unless you stop and change your mind as well as your heart from the bondage of unforgivenessto freedom through forgiveness. Such freedom comes only after pouring your heart out completely to God in prayer.

Also, you can prayerfully refocus the energy of your anger. You can focus your energy to work toward making the world, your country, your state, your county, your schools (shooting), your community (political assassination, racism), your families (spouse abuse & child abuse), and your hearts free from the sins that leads to inflicting terror into people's lives.

Very often in times of tragedy, you feel abandoned by God. You may find it difficult to believe that with God's help, your life can be rebuilt. Yet, the good news of rebuilding with God's help is the Bible's message for you today.

It is easy to sail along life in your own strength and wisdom, when life is smooth sailing. However, no one's life is without tragedy. Disaster and heart-ache will inevitably hit you. There's sorrow by death. A woman dies, leaving her husband with three small children to raise. A car accident claims the life of a couple's only son or daughter. A senseless boating accident caused by someone' drunken and reckless condition takes the life of someone's fiancée just a few days before the wedding.

While some are the soul survivors of a departed spouse, others experience multiple losses in their life over a short time. In one three year period, a lady lost her father to cancer, her mother to senile dementia, her husband after 31 years of marriage, her talented son in an accident. Many were the nights that she went to bed hoping that she would never wake up. Because of her faith, she knew that she could no more take her life than the life of someone else. Through it all she never doubted God's love and mercy for her, yet she did not always feel his presence. She did however reach a point where she could no longer bear the pain of her losses. She prayed to God for help. He brought I Thessalonians 5:18 to her mind. It speaks of giving thanks in all things. It does not say give thanks only when your life is going right. Nothing in her life changed outwardly, but she did gain a heart for gratitude that changed her. Truly, without her faith, she would either be a miserable person or dead. The hymn "I need the every hour" probably became very dear to her.

Neither the book of Isaiah nor the rest of the Bible make any claims that rebuilding is easy. No, rebuilding after any tragedy or crisis in our lives is tough and takes time. Isaiah and the Bible does say that with God's help through prayer whatever rebuilding needs doing will be done by God's grace and power.

God still controls the world, even your world with unexplainable suffering. Your mind can neither contain nor control all knowledge. The important truth is that God can be trusted in the worst of circumstances as well as in the best. Thus, living by faith means far more than simply accepting suffering as a part of life.Living by faith means growing in your relationship with God, knowing his care and love more deeply as you trust God more thoroughly in prayer.

The author of "It Is Well WithMy Soul" must have been a great person of prayer to have written this hymn after such a personal family tragedy.

As you intercede for those most directly impacted by 9/11 and other tragedies, pray that each one will experience the reality of God knowing and understanding the intensity of their souls.

As you intercede for those most directly impacted by 9/11 and other tragedies, pray that each one will see their fight is not against other human beings, but against the spiritual attacks upon their souls in hope of leading them into evil attitudes and actions.

* Pray for God to help them fulfill the Bible's call to be angry and yet not sin.

* Pray for people to not nurse the pain forever, but to feel the pain and give it to God in prayer for his healing work.

* Pray for the healing of those whose lives are already or almost shipwrecked by bitter self-pity, unfocused anger, loveless fears, and wounded pride.

* Pray for people to refocus the energy of their anger toward making their country, state, county, community, workplaces, schools, churches, marriages, families, and hearts free from the sins that leads to inflicting terror into people's lives.

* Pray for people to believe and keep believing that with God's help, their life can be rebuilt

* Pray for others to know that God still controls the world, even their world with unexplainable suffering. Pray that they may trust God in the worst of circumstances as well as in the best.

Prayer

God our hope and refuge, we confess that anger and hatred have held on to us. Healing has begun, but loss is still real. We are not in control. We don't like being vulnerable. We still want security or the illusion of it. We still want our enemies to be annihilated and for our lives to return to safety and Shalom. Forgive us and heal us. Raise us to new life. Strengthen us in the way of compassion and justice. Fix our faith on you so we know that nothing can separate us from you, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

Reprinted from Candles in the Dark, Flames for the Future: Preaching and Poetry in Times for Crisis, ed. David Randolph (Albany, CA: New Way Media, 2003)

http://bachdevelopment.com/BACH7b.htm

Norrie, are you saying you don’t believe God exists, but if He/She does,- every suffering we endure or cause is God's fault?—So to say “The devil made me do it.” Should read “ god made me do it”.

One thing I notice on this site is several definitions of God. Not so much in who he/she is but what God is.

A sample of definitions I have seen from people on this site: vengeful, loving, omnipotent, compassionate, separate, everything, love, creation, compassion, different than someone else’s God.

If we don’t agree on the definition then it will be hard to reconcile beliefs. I have even seen these differing definitions come from one religion. I believe humans have yet to fully understand the nature of God.

My belief; God created everything… EVERYTHING. I also believe that God IS everything. God is not just a ‘person’/supreme being but the very essence of the physical universe and the spiritual realm. Good, bad, sin, death, life, love, heaven, hell and everything in between. I don’t believe there is an actual place called hell, but that it is a state of mind.

If God is the all, the everything, the alpha and the omega then how is there anything that is not God. And if God is perfection, which I believe he/she is, then how is there anything that is not perfect in this universe.

The question becomes how is evil perfect? How is anything bad perfect? We live in the world of the relative. Hot/cold. Light/dark, good/bad.

How’s this for a point to ponder. God is everything, knows all so he created us so that through us he can experience something which he is not which is separate from anything. While we are not truly separate since God is everything, we think we are separate and thus experience separation.

Every experience only has the meaning you give it. If you believe that man is generally evil then that is what you will experience. If you believe you need things then you experience need. If you believe that we are all separate then that is the experience. If you believe we are all one that is what you experience.

What we are experiencing plays a large role into how we act.

More news from an average day.

BAGHDAD Apr 18, 2007 (AP)— Two explosions rocked Baghdad at midday Wednesday, killing at least 15 people and wounding 19, police said.

Meanwhile, U.S. troops killed five suspects and captured 30 others in a raid in Iraq's western Anbar province, a day after police uncovered 17 decomposing corpses beneath two school yards in the provincial capital.

Rev. Dr. Thistlethwait,

We all know that Jesus wept (John 11:35) but did God the Father? Since they were theologically joined at the hip, did Jesus's tears flow osmotically through the Father?

I agree with E Favorite. If a godly God really existed, S/He could put the Universe right in a nanosecond. Not to do so means either (1) there is no God or (2) God likes to play sadistic games.

Time to give up your religion, Dr. Thistlethwait.

Really, who needs a weeping God at a time like this? Who EVER needs a weeping God? What happened to that all powerful, all knowing God? The one who delivers us from evil?

Theo,

Your God (whom the Cathars dubbed "The Ignorant Demiurge") doesn't sound like a very nice guy - to say the least.

Regards.

Well said, Ms. Brooks.

God did not create sin and death. It was an inevitable consequence of man turning away from Him. Note he said, "...on that day [that you eat of the fruit..] you shall surely die"...not "I will KILL you" not, "I will get you". He was stating an axiom of existence. In effect, "Because I created you with an intelligence and will, like me, you can turn away from me, but if you do, you will die, because I am the source of your life". But we did it, and have inherited the consequences. (Not the GUILT, mind you, but the consequences). We have a broken nature that doesn't recognize the true source of its happiness and life.

Go team go!

Booyah

2nd pick for the dodgeball team..........Andrea!

Russell and Luke,

I'm glad to see you are friends.

I think some folks on here believe they have a monopoly on faith and truth - which is fine but they have to accept that the reaction isn't going to go so well when we are being condemned. It is pretty elitist, if you ask me. You are my dog, Russell...we are BFF.

Ok, for my dodgeball game, as Captain, I pick Luke!

PJ, Russell has a point. I mean, does everyone who reads the Bible interpret the same way? Are you the only one who is right? I think you are unable to see that how you interpret the Bible is specific to YOU. Since Russell can only experience something how he himself perceives it, doesn't that make it have to be from within himself? Rather then surrendering to what you don't understand, maybe you could try to understand it. It is almost as if God is only at the cusp of human understanding, and only in our darkest recesses can we find him. If he is everywhere, why must you make him so elusive?

Thank you for the posting. I too believe that "God weeps".

PJ:

Does it shock you to know that a man that has no belief in a God can be knowledgeable and have a good moral structure? Or is it only the ones that read the Bible.

I have come to this conclusion because I believe in people. I have faith in the world, not in God. People can do very bad things, and they can do very good things.

Ever heard of cause and effect? It all works out in the end.

Fair enough Luke, fair enough. I look forward to more discussions with you.

How does Russel D. know that all will balance it out in the end? Has his god told him? Or is it intuitive to himself? I know the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ will be just and justice will be done and seen to be done in the end. But I know that because he told us so in the Bible. Where does Russell D. get his view from? If it comes from within himself, with all due respect, it has no authority and I place no confidence in his, or even my assertions, apart from what God has said in the Bible and in Christ.

I am an atheist, but I do find people's faith to be very interesting, some modern-day Jobs who suffer and suffer and still believe in God. That feeling cannot be paralleled I'm sure...so I admire you Russell although I disagree with you.

I am gonna have to agree with you there Luke. You too Chris.

Why only praise God when you succeed? Why not praise Him when you fail also? Seems to me that He has a reason for both. People seem to forget that.

Chris you are speaking my language. You can't pick and choose where God's responsibility lies to suit your agenda. Remember, either God is himself or you made him up.

Susan:

How do you know this is not part of God's plan? I thought EVERYTHING is a part of God's plan. Who are you to say it is not? Or is deciphering "HIS plan" merely a matter of perception and convenience depending on one's relation to the one perpetrating the violence.

This incident is certainly a tragedy, but it is hardly the worst thing ever. I wonder if slaughtering over 60,000 people (mostly women, old people and children) in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were a part of "God's plan"?

Look I don't mean to belittle the current tragedy, but this "God's plan" business really sticks in my craw.

He is either omnipotent or not. You can't have it both ways, if he gets credit for the good stuff then he deserves to be questioned for the bad stuff too.

Russell:

Why are you posting the same response under every panelist's answer? That really gets rather annoying...

Not God's plan? How would you know? Your god has done worse, and demanded worse be done. Your god has ordered the deaths of tens of thousands because they were of a different tribe than his chosen people. Sent plagues and ordered the slaughter of children simply because they were born of a different tribal society, simply because they were ignorant of his self proclaimed omnipotence. I can only grieve for the dead, and offer heart felt sympothy to the suffering families. May they find peace somehow.

The question isn't what God wants for us. It is what we want for ourselves. There is no doubt that this a tremendous tragedy for not only the ones involved, but also for the ones who are not involved. This ordeal has implications that reach beyond this world.

It is as much spiritual as it is corpreal. The evil done on this day far outweighs some of the good, yet eventually the good will bounce back. But you must realize, that in this world, there will never be a total reign of Good over evil, nor will Evil reign over Good. It is a constant balnace. Right and wrong, yin and yang. There cannot be one without the other. When one act overshadows the other, than inevitably the latter will overshadow the other when it is time. Balance is always the key.

Belief in a higher power has nothing to do with it. Whether you are a Christian, Muslim, Jew, athiest, Buddhist, etc., the main picture is to know that the world will even itself out in the end.

While the country mourns for the people at VT, know within your heart, or within your God, that everything will eventually turn out to be better in the end.

Yup, because God wants us to be nice to each other, unless we are dirty Muslims.