All Comments (80)

"First of all, it's not my logic. It's God's logic, as written in the bible, every word of which is true, and we know that every word in the bible is true because the bible says that every word in the bible is true and if you will remember from earlier in this sentence, every word in the bible is true. Are you following me here, or are you just some kind of mindless zealot?" - S. Colbert

When I was a child, my parents chose my food, my clothing, my school, my home, and my religion. As I grew older I was given more autonomy. Now I choose all of those things for myself. Foods I ate as a child are not considered healthy for me now. My clothes have changed a great deal. My home is not the same, and my religion has also changed.

I am, of course, a product of what my parents gave me. My religion is rooted in the religion of my youth, but it has grown and evolved much since then. I have loved it, followed it blindly, rebelled against it, abandoned it, searched beyond it, and returned to it with a new faith and understanding.

I am not limited by my faith. It is limited by me. It is restricted by my ability to grow, change, and improve my understanding. If my mind closes, or my questions end, or if I accept faith blindly, then my faith dies, and I become a clanging bell.

I owe it to my faith and to my love of my faith to be willing to accept that everything I believe may be wrong. I owe it to God to accept that if my understanding is to continue to grow, it must be imperfect. To proclaim the will of God is blasphemy. To disparage another person's faith is sacrilege. To educate one whose mind is closed is impossible.

It is my responsibility to make the important determinations for myself. To keep my mind open to the possibility of revelation, and declare a holy war on my own ignorance.

To eat the same belief I was fed as a child simply because it was ever thus, would be irresponsible, foolish, and ultimately disappointing to my parents.

It has been enlighting to read everyones point of
view. We all need to remember these are the kind
of things that war is made of. Every persons opinion is valid to that person and we need to remember to be able voice our opinion which is also valid to me, without knocking others down. My personal experiences in life, I feel have been learned through my own soul searching. I do believe each and every person will walk their own
path, rather good or bad it is not for me to say.
I personally believe in Christ and seek to better myself through him but I will not condemn anyone else for believing differently. I do believe God intended for us to use or brains to evolve but each and ever person will evolve to their choosing. The name God itself does not mean that
God is his only name. Who are we to judge what is right and what is wrong? God,Dad,Father or any other name, the name is not what is important here. We are all chosen to be apart of this world and to be apart of a higher existance. It is up to each individual person to choose what makes them one with this higher existance. I do totally believe in a higher power because I have
experienced this for myself. I do believe that if you live your life accordingly to your own expectations of others you are walking on the correct path no matter what your religion. If you seek to better yourself and focus on your own faults you are also walking the correct path. This is all about the spiritual walk, whomever you choose to better yourself with, is personnal
to you and good for you.

Buddhist Jihad,

You asked : Why would Buddhism "benefit" from a "stronger doctrine of evil"?

What's weak about the concept of karma, cause and effect?

You got me stumped there, until I remember Gautama Buddha teach what is good and to do good wihout really defining evil.

This is what I perceive, for Abrhamic faiths, defining good and evil is clearly setting the moral and ethical tone for what is right and wrong. As for religious definations of right and wrong (from abortions to polygamy) well, I leave it out here.

The Buddhist concept of karma, cause and effect is personal and to be pursued as an individual and does not really address what one should do at the collective level. Buddhist kingdoms in mainland Southeast Asia, Burma, Vietnam, Thailand, Loas, Cambodia and Java in history do wage wars againsts other states not so much in battles of good against evil, but for pragmatic political and economic gains from territories gained. As for good and evil perpetrated by individuals and state, for example, the Cambodians do not see Pol Pot as an evil man, merely cruel in committing the genocide against Cambodians.

Yes, no one should judge Buddhism by their own values or religious beliefs, nor to say a religion should benefit from this or that.

I really look forward to your thoughts on good and evil from a Buddhist perpective and to correct my perceptions.

Owen Tuneap,

If you haven't done so already, you might want to look into the life of John Dee (1527-1608). He was a famous alchemist and occultist who was thought to be a sorcerer or wizard. He was also Queen Elizabeth I's Astrologer Royal.

He is said to have been an accomplished floater, which was attested to by attendees at various gatherings. My recollection of what I read long ago is that sometimes he floated involuntarily and bounced along the ceiling as if he couldn't come back down.

There'a a famous episode where he is said to have floated out of one upper-story window and back in through another. At another time he saw the angel Uriel floating outside his window holding a crystal ball. That ball is now at the British Museum.

Although this article doesn't mention floating, it's a good introduction to John Dee's life:

http://www.mysteriousbritain.co.uk/occult/john_dee.html

Good luck with your floating studies. I wish you the best.

Wiccan,

You are right...a friend of mine ran Boston and said it was brutal.

However the wind is my friend. I'm trying to connect with it. It's my belief that the more connected I get to the wind and nature the more chance I will be able to fly.

Stranger things have happened.

Owen-

Please don't practice floating today! If you're on the eastern seaboard you'll be blown to the North Pole before you know it. These winds are unbelieveable!

Owen, you say, "My new religion is not dependent upon any rules, guidelines, history, logic... nothing. I feel very free."

And you're quite right, of course. Enjoy.

Why would Buddhism "benefit" from a "stronger doctrine of evil"?

What's weak about the concept of karma, cause and effect?

I'm sure you weren't trying to be arrogant, unlike some other representatives of the Christian faith (like Cal Thomas), but take a look at what you said.

Wiccan,

I love that saying! "God isn't a noun, God is a verb."

This is very liberating. And as a part of the open-mindedness I am now learning, I see that there are no rules of grammar when it comes to religion. I've been freed from this bondage. Nouns, verbs, adjectives, participles...it just doesn't matter. It ties very well into the concept of there being no absolute truth.

This is very helpful. My new religion is not dependent upon any rules, guidelines, history, logic...nothing. I feel very free.

Happiness.

"...if I do a good act, be it physical, intellectual or spiritual, I am manifesting Deity.

Yes, yes, yes! Terra Gazelle had a post where she quoted a Christian friend, "God isn't a noun, God is a verb."

Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6).

Was it not also said that Jesus is love? … If that is the case than would it not stand to reason that the way to the “Father” is through love?

"Thus says the LORD:
"Cursed is the man who trusts in man
and makes flesh his strength,
whose heart turns away from the LORD.
He is like a shrub in the desert,
and shall not see any good come.
He shall dwell in the parched places of the wilderness,
in an uninhabited salt land.

"Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD,
whose trust is the LORD.
He is like a tree planted by water,
that sends out its roots by the stream,
and does not fear when heat comes,
for its leaves remain green,
and is not anxious in the year of drought,
for it does not cease to bear fruit."

The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?
"I the LORD search the heart
and test the mind,
to give every man according to his ways,
according to the fruit of his deeds." Jeremiah 17:5-10"

Does this mean that all Christians are supposedly honest? That someone who is not a Christian is automatically dishonest? That if you are not Christian you are in no way capable of acts of kindness or thoughtfulness or goodness? That if you are not a Christian you are not capable or deserving of love? Does this not conflict with the teachings of Jesus?

I see it as this…if I do a good act, be it physical, intellectual or spiritual, I am manifesting Deity. It matters not by what name I call said deity, the honor I give is in the act, the intent. This is why I do my best to include my spirituality in all parts of my life.

I like that idea Pablo.

But I am not gonna allow anyone to bow down before me. You must stand beside me as an equal. that is the difference between me and God.

And when can I start collecting royalties on that?

Russell D is a god now? Like Elvis? Has Rusell D left the building?

Nah, I can't bow down and worship Rusell D. That would be idoltorous. A grave sin. But I do like his posts. Hero worship is allowed no?

Let me meditate on that.

Russell D,

Maybe we should all bow down and worship you.

Pablo

Anonymous,

Gracias por el verso de la biblia

Con Amor en Cristo,

Pablo

En Ingles:

"But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong" (1 Corinthians 1:27).

Owen - pray on it and I bet you'll be floating in no time. Some people say prayer doesn't work, but I did a study showing 17% of my prayers are answered.

I think that's pretty good, considering all the people who pray for stuff that's much more important than the stuff I pray for.

Anon, you ask: "Did (or do) you experience varying degrees of quality in your experiences of love? More or less tainted by selfishness, for example?

No, all my love experiences are exactly alike and completey unselfish. I'm totally in touch with my feelings on this. Perhaps just as you are, regarding Jesus' love.

Wiccan,

Flying or even extended hopping is a very difficult proposition. However, I am trying and will continue to practice. I am so glad I've found a forum of open-minded folks with which I can discuss my new found ideas that won't judge me. Here's a site that discusses yogic flying...

goldendome.org

Owen-

Well, everybody to their own kick. How's the floating coming?

I'll pass on that. Although I do believe in another's right to marry out of their species, I prefer staying in mine.

Happiness.

Owen-

Congratulations on your liberation! Brightest blessings on you as you journey in this new world. Give my best to your neighbor on the occasion of his nuptials. If you're lucky, he might fix you up with the goat's sister.

Oh! I forgot,

6) It is possible to marry outside our species. This previous idea of only "like species" marriage was based on the "natural order" of biology, which has been proven lacking. Tomorrow I am going to my neighbors wedding...he's marrying a goat. May the experience many years of happiness.

Dear Wiccan,

You said, "Each soul is unique, and will respond to the Divine in its own, unique way. If that soul is earnestly seeking God, who are you to tell it it's going the wrong way?"

I must say I agree with you completely. Every person and soul is completely unique and must find their own way to their spirituality. My newfound understanding of the absence of absolute truth has led me to this. There are no correct views of the divine, there are no historically accurate religious writings, there is no absoulte moral code.

It is a very liberating discovery. Based upon it, I have a new found set of beliefs that are guiding me.

1) The laws of mathmatics are still changing. 2+2 will probably not equal 4 much longer. Mathmatical truth my be true for some people, but they have not been enlightened yet.

2) Due to new laws of physics, I personally believe the sun rests just outside of our atmosphere. This is a very hard concept to explain, but I hope no one holds me to archaic laws in this area. It's my personal belief and I hope people will accept me for it.

3) Julias Ceasar, Chandragupta II, George washington, and King Henry VIII never existed. I was brain-washed for years to believe they did. But the sources are completely unverifiable. Thus they were a figment of someones imagination.

4) It is possible to live without a heart. It's really kind of like the appendix. People who have died from the appearance of "heart - related" problems, really died from a parallel condition that made it "look" like a heart problem.

5) Gravity is other peoples truth which does not apply to me. I'm learning how to float.

It's good to be liberated from some poor education and bondage to other peoples standards. I hope that the freethinking people of these forums will accept me...

Pero Dios escogió lo insensato del mundo para avergonzar a los sabios, y escogió lo débil del mundo para avergonzar a los poderosos.

That was an interesting verse Pablo. Gives an insight into how God thinks of humans. Yet here's a thought that popped into my head after I read it.

If that is what God really thinks of us humans, then he doesn't know jack.

Dear Wiccan,

I do not know what is in your heart but God knows the human heart apart from Him.

Thus says the LORD:
"Cursed is the man who trusts in man
and makes flesh his strength,
whose heart turns away from the LORD.
He is like a shrub in the desert,
and shall not see any good come.
He shall dwell in the parched places of the wilderness,
in an uninhabited salt land.

"Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD,
whose trust is the LORD.
He is like a tree planted by water,
that sends out its roots by the stream,
and does not fear when heat comes,
for its leaves remain green,
and is not anxious in the year of drought,
for it does not cease to bear fruit."

The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?
"I the LORD search the heart
and test the mind,
to give every man according to his ways,
according to the fruit of his deeds."

Jeremiah 17:5-10

Pablo

“Opposition to godliness is atheism in profession and idolatry in practice. Atheism is so senseless and odious to mankind that it never had many professors” (Sir Isaac Newton).

Wow times have sure changed we sure live in a senseless age.

Pablo

Hello My Wiccan Friend,

No you did not stump me. There is only one way to God and that is through Jesus Christ. Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6). He is the only one to die for sin and conquer death for us.

Anonymous,

Evolution rests on the presupposition of naturalism. Naturalism is the belief that the universe is a closed system and that nature is all that there is. In other words we are the product of blind natural forces. This belief discounts that there is a God who designed and ordered things and asserts that impersonal nature is the prime mover fro the universe and all things.

The Empirical Method is the discipline of learning through measuring and observing things in repeatable experiments using the five senses. The beginning of the universe and the genesis of man are long gone and none of us have observed or measured these things. No one has ever seen one kind or organism change into another kind of organism like Darwin like a monkey becoming a man. We see change within kinds of organisms but the organisms still retain their identity. For example we have many kinds of dogs but they are all still dogs. Evolutionary speculations are not science but religious or philosophical speculations.

One huge mistake that empiricists make is limiting all knowing to the scientific method. The problem with this is that we all know things without having to use the empirical method. For example, love. One cannot put love under a microscope and say there is love. Another example is reason. Reason cannot be observed or measured with the senses.

By the way I love science I just reject the idea that science can account for all things. It cannot account for the abstract world.

Pablo

Pablo-

I didn't stump you with my question, did I? Ahmed from Bahrain posted: "there are as many paths to God as there are souls." Consider the truth of this. Even two Christians will not follow the same path to God; how could they? Each soul is unique, and will respond to the Divine in its own, unique way. If that soul is earnestly seeking God, who are you to tell it it's going the wrong way?

I'm curious. This is a list of Christians denominations on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

Are they all on the "correct" path to God? If so, why so many?

So I take it from Pablo's silence that he is unable to provide the good readers with a definition of the theory of evolution by natural selection.

By that very fact, all of you good readers should comprehensively dismiss anything he says on the matter, because he, apparently, does not even know what it is.

Unless, of course, Pablo cares to provide us with a defintion...

...pretty please (with sugar on top)...

Another P.S. The last two posts are by me.

This forum is really primitive.

Needs work.

By the way, please forgive my several spelling errors above.

So, Pablo, the theory of evolution by natural selection is....?

No, Pablo, it is scientific because it is scientific.

That means it can either be proved or disproved.

If you have scientific evidence that the theory of evolution by natural selection is not valid, please, pray tell, share it with us (and the academic ommunity, for that matter).

Can you even tell us what the theory of evoultion by natural selection is?

I await your definition with baited breath.

So it is scientific because you say it is. I see.
Evolution presupposes naturalism.

What has the Religion Naturalistic Evolution given us?

Free Love

The Dehumanization of the unborn

The Murder of the unborn

MARX: interestingly, according to Morris, Stephen Jay Gould of Harvard University, the co-founder of the punctuated equilibrium theory of evolution is a Marxist in philosophy, along with other distinguished Harvard evolutionary scientists and university professors across the country. One has to ask - could a person espouse the Marxist view and tolerate creationism?

TROTSKY: Russian communist leader Leon Trotsky (1879–1940) was a fanatical supporter of Marxism and Darwinism. In the Russian Civil War of 1918–20, he used the force of the Red Army to stamp out whoever he decided were enemies of the Soviet State.

HITLER: Nazi dictator Adolph Hitler (1889–1945) endorsed a program in Germany to breed a superior race. The scheme was based on a horrific evolutionary theory called “eugenics” that was founded by Charles Darwin's cousin, Francis Galton. The idea of eugenics was to improve the human race using principles promoted in the theory of evolution.

STALIN: Darwin's “survival of the fittest” ideas powerfully shaped Stalin's approach to society. Oppression, atheism, self-glorification, and the blood of his many innocent victims flowed from Stalin's rejection of his Creator after reading and believing Darwin's evolutionary theories.

I am waiting for someone to support what they assert.

Pablo

Pablo,

I do not need to provide proof of the theory of evolution by natural selection.

It is a scientific theory and not a philosophy.

I am not calling names; I am simply pointing out the difference between "scientific theory" and "philosphy".

If you can not tell the difference bewteen the two, you need to educate yourself. Maybe you can start with dictionary.com ???

I'm sorry, Anonymous.

Steven Gould's "wise" words considered, evolution by natural selection is a scientific theory.

Any philosophical extrapolations are just that, but they do nothing to reduce the fact that evolution by natural selection is a scientific theory, and most certainly not a philosphy.

Celestial Teapot,

Instead of name calling give some some empiricle proof for the theory of evolution?

Pablo

E favorite --"I certainly knew what love was, because I was lucky to have it in abundance from my parents and my large extended family."

So did the nazis; not few appear to have had fairly nice loving family lives.

Did (or do) you experience varying degrees of
quality in your experiences of love? More or less tainted by selfishness, for example?

According to Harvard Biologist Steven J Gould 'The' theory of evolution has certain philosphical presuppositions, that in his understanding, are invalid.

Gould, as I understand it, argued:

1. That evolution zig zags such what is more advanced today may suddenly slow down, while what appears primitive may indeed leap ahead. This is only visible however over very large spans of time.

2. That science is out of bounds when it comes to philosophy and religion.

"Relativism is about the silliest philosophy along with the Theory of Evolution that has ever been foisted on the minds of people on this planet."

To say that evolution is a "philosophy" is such a clear sign of ignorance, I can only have pity for you.

It is a scientific theory.

Is algebra a "philosophy"?

If you do not understand the difference between a "philosophy" and a "scientific theory", I would highly encourage you to invest a minimal education.

If one does not like what someone is saying just call them judgmental. I know this is what our universities teach students now but let’s have some real debate. I look at the world through the lens of the Christian worldview. It is obvious from the responses to what I have said on this post that most of you look at the world through the lens of relativism. Relativism is about the silliest philosophy along with the Theory of Evolution that has ever been foisted on the minds of people on this planet.

Pablo

Another veiled attack on Catholicism all too typical for this hatefilled woman.

Are you trying to justify your abandonment of the Church that Jesus ordained with his apostle Peter?

I want to add a Christian voice to those who are advising (perhaps, admonishing would be a better word,) those who take the Bible as the inerrant Word of God, and add that not all of us understand the writings of the Old and New Testaments in that manner.

I like Terra's description of the Bible. There is nothing wrong with using your powers of REASON to understand the writings contained therein.

If you do, you will see what a radical Master we have in Jesus, and that he took no part in judgmentalism and narrow understandings of belief when he preached to the people of His times.

We would do well to follow Him in this.

Anon - yes, I believe love is fundamental to human happiness and I also know that religious belief is not needed to love or be loved.

Even when I was a believer, I didn’t think in terms of experiencing Jesus’ love. I certainly knew what love was, because I was lucky to have it in abundance from my parents and my large extended family.

So, no - not experiencing Jesus’ love is not “more or less” hell. I know that from my own experience.

Pablo-

The most important part of the poem by Rumi is this:

"I have given each being a separate and unique way
of seeing and knowing and saying that knowledge.

What seems wrong for you is right for him.
What is poisonous to one is honey to someone else.

Purity and impurity, sloth and diligence in worship,
these mean nothing to me.
I am apart from all that.
Ways of worshipping are not to be ranked as better
or worse than one another.

Hindus do Hindu things.
the Dravidian Muslims in India do what they do.
It's all praise, and it's all right.

It's not me that's glorified in acts of worship.
It's the worshipers! I don't hear the words
they say. I look inside at the humility."

Do you know better than the Divine what is in my heart?

E favorite --One more point. Consider the possibility of human happiness without any kind of love whatsoever (love of another human, animal, work, nature, etc.). Isn't love fundamental?

Pablo,

I am sure I have been guilty of hypocracy...but I do not pride myself in being perfect.

How can I make judgement of you? When you judge others as to their following their path to god. Who do you think you are?

I am arrogant, dern right, and I use it when neccessary...but I do not rate anyone's faith and how they follow it. How you pray, or who you pray to is none of my business...judgeing you on your religion is not my business...What is my business is you telling any one that they are not up to your standards in following their path to god. You follow a book? So what..its a book! I have a few books... should I base how I treat others on them?

Bible is Greek for BOOK...a book. It is filled with books that were culled from many more books and what is in there was chosen to follow a certain line. Even the name of the books were named by church fathers.

So you go by that book..it is up to you what you believe. But it is not up to you to judge others...That is arrogance.

oh and Pablo, I am not a Christian...my idea of sin is at its base Harming Others.

I wonder how Jesus would feel about how you judge others? Others that are following His way the best they heartfully can?

God Says:
"You shall have no other gods before me."
Posted April 12, 2007 4:34 PM

Priest Says:
"You shall have no other gods before me."
Posted April 12, 2007 4:41 PM

ANOTHER PRIEST TELLS 14 YEAR OLD ALTAR BOY:
"You shall have no other priests before me."

Pablo,

Please try reading my post. I'd say "reread my post" except that it's clear you never really did read it.

I NEVER CALLED YOU A FUNDAMENTALIST.

Please, try reading others' posts before you undertake to comment on them.

"You shall have no other gods before me."

"You shall have no other gods before me.

Pablo,

Did you even read the poem Wiccan posted? Or do you rather just skim people's posts for little bits you can disagree with. Look at the big picture, friend, it does make sense.

The Law of the LORD Is Perfect
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David.
1The heavens declare the glory of God,
and the sky above[a] proclaims his handiwork.
2Day to day pours out speech,
and night to night reveals knowledge.
3There is no speech, nor are there words,
whose voice is not heard.
4Their measuring line[b] goes out through all the earth,
and their words to the end of the world.
In them he has set a tent for the sun,
5which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber,
and, like a strong man, runs its course with joy.
6Its rising is from the end of the heavens,
and its circuit to the end of them,
and there is nothing hidden from its heat.

Wicca,

That was an amazing incoherent tirade.

Pablo

Norrie,

Calling someone a "fundamentalist" proves nothing. Expose what I have stated to be false and then you will be entering into the debate. At least make a case against the Bible. I guess you have nothing to say. God's word says that people who do not have Jesus are on the wrong. The Bible is my authority not me or my opinion.

Pablo

E Favorite:

"Because if we don't seek him, he'll send us to hell for eternity, right?"

Wrong. Because we won´t experience his love. Compared to that everything is more or less hell.

Sorry, Viejita, that was a copy and paste. I didn't trust myself to edit the poem.

Pablo
I'm not worried, but you seem to be.
Wiccan et. al
It would be helpful if you would break really long posts into bite-size mouthfuls. This format makes long readings difficult to handle.

Pablo,

As the Fundamentalists say, "You're on the wrong road."

And you ran out of gas a long time ago.

Or, as St. Paul preached so many years ago: "A stuck record availeth naught!"

Repent!

Regards to you and may your soul have an easy convalescence.

Professor Marcus Borg, an On-Faith panelist, has published a book comparing many of the sayings of Jesus to those of Buddha. Jesus and Buddha: The Parallel Sayings (2002),

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Buddha-Parallel-Marcus-Borg/dp/1569753180/ref=sr_1_1/104-9896956-2574367?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176392091&sr=1-1 .

An excerpt from the Introduction of the book:

"Most striking of all the parallels between Jesus and Buddha are those dealing with love..."

Ahhh, Rumi...Islam's Mystic Gift to the World!!!

Pablo-

Loving blasphemy is more precious than sterile dogma.

"Moses heard a shepherd on the road praying,
"God,
Where are you? I want to help you, to fix your shoes
and comb your hair. I want to wash your clothes
and pick the lice off. I want to bring you milk
to kiss your little hands and feet when it's time
for you to go to bed. I want to sweep your room
and keep it neat. God, my sheep and goats
are yours. All I can say, remembering you,
is ayyyy and ahhhhhhhh."

Moses could stand it no longer.
"Who are you talking to?"

"The one who made us,
and made the earth and made the sky."

"Don't talk about shoes
and socks with God! And what's this with your little hands
and feet? Such blasphemous familiarity sounds like
you're chatting with your uncles.
Only something that grows
needs milk. Only someone with feet needs shoes. Not God!
Even if you meant God's human representatives,
as when God said, 'I was sick and you did not visit me,'
even then this tone would be foolish and irreverent.

Use appropriate terms. Fatima is a fine name
for a woman, but if you call a man Fatima,
it's an insult. Body-and-birth language
are right for us on this side of the river,
but not for addressing the origin,
not for Allah."

The shepherd repented and tore his clothes and sighed
and wandered into the desert.

A sudden revelation
came then to Moses. God's voice:

You have separated
me from one of my own. Did you come as a Prophet to unite,
or to sever?

I have given each being a separate and unique way
of seeing and knowing and saying that knowledge.

What seems wrong for you is right for him.
What is poisonous to one is honey to someone else.

Purity and impurity, sloth and diligence in worship,
these mean nothing to me.
I am apart from all that.
Ways of worshipping are not to be ranked as better
or worse than one another.

Hindus do Hindu things.
the Dravidian Muslims in India do what they do.
It's all praise, and it's all right.

It's not me that's glorified in acts of worship.
It's the worshipers! I don't hear the words
they say. I look inside at the humility.

That broken-open lowliness is the reality,
not the language! Forget phraseology.
I want burning, burning.
Be friends
with your burning. Burn up your thinking
and your forms of expression!

Moses,
those who pay attention to ways of behaving
and speaking are one sort.
Lovers who burn
are another.

Don't impose a property tax
on a burned-out village. Don't scold the Lover.
The "wrong" way he talks is better than a hundred
"right" ways of others.

Inside the Kaaba
it doesn't matter which direction you point
your prayer rug!

The ocean diver doesn't need snowshoes!
The love-religion has not code or doctrine.

Only God.

So the ruby has nothing engraved on it!
It doesn't need markings.

God began speaking
deeper mysteries to Moses. Vision and words,
which cannot be recorded here, poured into
and through him. He left himself and came back.
He went to eternity and came back here.
Many times this happened.

It's foolish of me
to try and say this. If I did say it,
it would uproot human intelligences.
It would shatter all writing pens.

Moses ran after the shepherd.
He followed the bewildered footprints,
in one place moving straight like a castle
across a chessboard. In another, sideways,
like a bishop.

Now surging like a wave cresting,
now sliding down like a fish,
with always his feet
making geomancy symbols in the sand,
recording
his wandering state.

Moses finally caught up
with him.
"I was wrong. God has revealed to me
that there are no rules for worship.
Say whatever
and however your loving tells you to. Your sweet blasphemy
is the truest devotion. Through you a whole world
is freed.
Loosen your tongue and don't worry what comes out,
It's all the light of the spirit."

The shepherd replied,
"Moses, Moses,
I've gone beyond even that.
You applied the whip and my horse shied and jumped
on itself. The divine nature of my human nature
came together.
Bless your scolding hand and your arm.
I can't say what has happened.
What I'm saying now
is not my real condition. It can't be said."

The shepherd grew quiet.

When you look in a mirror,
you see yourself, not the state of the mirror.
The flute player puts breath into the flute,
and who makes the music? Not the flute,
The flute player!

Whenever you speak praise
or thanksgiving to God, it's always like
this dear shepherd's simplicity.

When you eventually see
through the veils to how things really are,
you will keep saying again
and again,

"This is certanly not like
we thought it was!"

-Rumi

A lady named Fern first posted this poem, and I have been grateful to her ever since.