All Comments (41)

In my last comment, I was talking to everyone here who isn't a believer, not just one person. I didn't make that clear. I agree that religion has been the cause of most of the pain and injustice in the world, especially against women. Religion is about rules and regulations and has power and money at it's root. I am sorry that so many Christians have been such poor representatives of the Savior throughout the centuries. I know that none of us is perfect, but so many of the things that have been done by those preaching our faith have been horrible beyond belief. In her book Woman Be Free, Christian author Patricia Gundry spends an entire chapter talking about this. She is straightforward and honest about these things and doesn't shy away. She ends the book by saying that Christianity, rightly understood, is about a personal relationship with God through Jesus the Christ. She is passionate that anything that interferes with that relationship (including religion) should be rejected by God's people. Other great books on all this are 10 Lies The Church Tells Women by J. Lee Grady, and Beyond Sex Roles by Gilbert Bilezikian.

Without the Resurrection there is no salvation (Romans 10:9). Scripture teaches that Christ was raised for our justification before God (Romans 4:24, and 25: "But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead: Who was delivered for offences, and was raised again for our justification."). Justification can be defined as "just-as-if-I-never-sinned"; I read that definition in a book and it fits perfectly. Christ stands at the door of your heart and knocks (Revelation 3:20). Please open the door of your heart and let Him in. He wants to forgive your sins and bring you to live with Him forever. God loves you very much, but the only alternative is hell and eternal torment (Luke 16:23). Hell is separation from God. God does not want you to go to hell. It's your choice. You can go to Heaven. I hope you choose Christ.

I don't believe that Jesus descended to hell. That seems like a silly concept to me, even though the apostle's creed claims it. It seems to be based on a few obscure verses which do not coincide with the rest of scripture. Poor hermeneutic!

I will attempt to answer some theological questions about Christianity, I pray I do not misled you but I will do my best. Sean B you wrote:

Seriously...how can one man pay for the sins of mankind? God sacraficed Christ for because he loved the world so. He did so because through belief is Christ we have life eternal. Eternal life with the ultimate source of love is not possible if sin is in the way, so Christ forgave the sins of man thereby granting him eternal life.

Why did it take a blood sacrifice? It is the ultimate sacrifice. It shows his love.

Of his Son? Who was also himself? Christ was the son of God.

Why would he love people who hate him? He saw through the hate and said "forgive them father, they know not what they do" Does this sound like a mere mortal?

Why would he create people who would end up rejecting him? Because freedom is a necessary condition for love. Enslaved people cannot really love their masters.

Why does he not show himself more often? Would you love God if he sat mightly on top of a volcano... I'm afraid you might fear him and claim you loved him. God reveals himself in everything from the 2nd law of thermodynamics to the loving heart of a child.

Why did Christ come at such a primitive time? Well since time and space is definite he would have to come at some finite time, correct? Perhaps it is equally valid to ask why are we so lucky to have lived after Christ came than before he came?

Why command us to love our enemies and expect to be persecuted? etc.
Because to love those who love you is no challenge. To love one's enemies is to change hearts and create goodness. (This should not be confused with surrender.)

I agree....Christiantiy has some strange beliefs and a strange God.

Actually, if you start the journey of asking the tough questions about the nature of love, you will see God.
Posted April 6, 2007 9:28 PM

Hitler used the Catholic Church for his purposes, but he was mostly definitely a hater of Christians as well as Jews. He was his own God.

Dr.Wimsatt:

Are you saying we need religion because it stops wars? I think that for centuries, including in this century, religions have caused wars, not to mention torture and slaughter.

Also, please consider that there aren't too many people out there who are "worse than Hitler, Mao, and Stalin" atheist or no, and that those three fellows were killing in the name of their political movements - nazism and communism - not their lack of religion - atheism.

I read recently that Hitler was Catholic and that German soldiers had "Gott mit uns" engraved on their belt buckles. That's "God with us."

Whether the Resurrection is true or not is beside the point. Whether Sigmund Freud's remark that institutional religion is a 'magnificent illusion' is also beside the point.

We must sustain institutional religion at its best and tolerate various divergent beliefs. Otherwise, atheists who are worse than Hitler, Mao, and Stalin may gain power, slaughter millions of people, and, given the nuclear power many nations currently possess, succeed in destroying the planet.

Shawn B - what is the overwhelming evidence?

I would appreciate it if you named some things.

E Favorite, I would guess the overwhelming evidence has convinced me.

God rscues from a condemnation that you have broguth upon yourself .

Selfishness equals sinfulness. That is the reality if you have ever committed a selfish act you are a sinner and deserving of hell.

The only escape from the justice due you for your selfishness is that God rescue you because you on your own are not capable of rescuing yourself. That is the ultimate and most hateful to the wolrd message of the Bible we aren't reliant on our own good works but upon Gods rescue for our salvation.

Shawn - I'm curious, what are your reasons for choosing to believe in a God such as this?

andrea- this may seem simplistic but it worked for me-

i asked god to show me the way to worship him/her as s/he wanted to be worshipped- not the form i was comfortable with-

but i had to pray for a long time

and i dont do proselytization

as the answer can only be yours

peace

Andrea,

Your experience is what has kept many people from continuing their journey with Christ and in a church specifically. I'm sorry your church let you down. My challenge to people who have experienced similar hurts is always, "don't let someone elses failure, hypocrisy, and sin keep you from God's path for you!" God bless you as you keep seeking.

Oh...and please know I don't claim to have a handle on ultimate truth :) Just trying to understand the Scripture and apply it accurately.

E Favorite:

I would tend to agree. He doesn't make any sense at all.

Seriously...how can one man pay for the sins of mankind? Why did it take a blood sacrifice? Of his Son? Who was also himself? Why would he love people who hate him? Why would he create people who would end up rejecting him? Why does he not show himself more often? Why did Christ come at such a primitive time? Why command us to love our enemies and expect to be persecuted? etc.

I agree....Christiantiy has some strange beliefs and a strange God.

Shawn B - you do seem to have worked things out in your mind - though I'm not sure it would count as the ultimate truth, or who decides what the ultimate truth is - or even if there is an ultimate truth. People's beliefs seem to differ quite a lot - even within the same religion.

I've thought it through in my mind too and the God you describe doesn't make any sense at all to me.

Shawn B,

BTW, "free gifts" usually come with a catch, like signing up for magazine subscriptions you don't really want ;)

Shawn B,

Thank you for your response!

"My question for you...will you allow these questions to keep you from responding to God's love and free gift of eternal life in Christ?"

This is not a question that would keep me away from faith. I've been posting on here for a few weeks, and I've said before that I'm not an athiest. I'm at a point in my life where I have more questions than answers and the answers I seek aren't found in the Bible. I have no problem with the idea there is a god, or that people choose to believe in this God. My problem lies more with religion, or the perversion that religion has become. I was let down by my church, and it will be a while, if ever, before I return to faith (not my former church, but some other form of worship-be it in a Unitarian congregation, a UCC congregation, or more of a spiritual pursuit rather than religious). I don't know what to call myself right now because my beliefs have been turned upside down.

Dr. Thistlewaite said: "All humans will finally die of many causes and I believe that no human spirit is lost, but that all in the end are joined in God."

To support this the Doctor points to 1 Corinthians 15:51 "...we shall all be changed..."

Most scholars understand this to be directed to "all" who have received Christ. The text is clear on this point. Paul is not referring to universal salvation with his comment. Earlier in verse 50 he identifies his audience by saying, "Now this I say, brethren,..." He's speaking to those who have faith in Christ and His Gospel.

Dr. Thistlewaite...you probably don't have time to respond, but do you agree? This text is referring to Christ followers?

Andrea,

Oooops. The previous anonymous post was mine. Forgot to put in my name. (duh on my part).

You said (Andrea):
"There are (still) parts of the world today where Christianity has not reached. Surprising, I know :) For example, native tribes in the depths of the Amazon jungle. It is true they worship a god, or gods/esses, because as you say, creation "screams" god, but not the one you profess will only offer them salvation if they know HIM. What of them? Is their faith just likened to that of Christianity and, boom, they're in? Or do they suffer eternally for not believing in the real God?"

Once again this is a difficult question, no doubt. However, I think my above post addressed it. Creation should cause anyone to see the creator (yes they do see in creation the one the Bible professes). Everyone has been given enough light to know there's a God. If someone seeks the true God, He will send a messanger to tell them about Christ. For the problem of those in remote areas, the Amazon Jungle as you say, God must have known in his sovereignty that they would not have received Christ had they been presented him. No different than someone working in the Sears tower in modern, urban America who is surrounded with the message, but yet rejects Christ.

Romans 1 goes on to say that, "they changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man-and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things." Basically saying that man makes idols and worships them instead of the creator.

It comes back to: God loves us, we've sinned, He's provided an answer in Christ, anyone who has faith in this is forgiven and has eternal life.

My question for you...will you allow these questions to keep you from responding to God's love and free gift of eternal life in Christ?

Anon said:
". . . As mentioned above (my original post), Romans 1 says that creation "screams" that there is a God. John 1 says that all men receive enough light to know they should seek him. If they seek him, they will find Christ. So I disagree with your premise that some people won't have the chance...they have chosen to ignore the revelation He has provided."

I have to disagree with you. There are (still) parts of the world today where Christianity has not reached. Surprising, I know :) For example, native tribes in the depths of the Amazon jungle. It is true they worship a god, or gods/esses, because as you say, creation "screams" god, but not the one you profess will only offer them salvation if they know HIM. What of them? Is their faith just likened to that of Christianity and, boom, they're in? Or do they suffer eternally for not believing in the real God?

E favorite:

Did you read the part about "hate" being equivalent with "murder"? I think that answers the first part of your question.

And it's not just believing in God that is at issue, it's belief (trust, reliance, faith) in Christ that is important. 95% of Americans believe in God, a far less % have a faith in Christ (according to Barna).

I'm not sure how that makes God a vengeful, bloodthirsty God (?). Man has a sin problem and God provided a solution. That sounds pretty loving to me. He could have thrown his arms up and said, "I'm through with these silly humans." But he didn't. He loving provided a solution, dependent upon humankind accepting it. So yes, unbelief is a sin to be severely punished.

I also disagree that anyone on earth never had a "chance to know Him." As mentioned above (my original post), Romans 1 says that creation "screams" that there is a God. John 1 says that all men receive enough light to know they should seek him. If they seek him, they will find Christ. So I disagree with your premise that some people won't have the chance...they have chosen to ignore the revelation He has provided.

What kind of a God is this? A God who is both loving and just. Would you want anything other than that?

Yes, I have thought about these difficult questions...thus the reason for posting :)

So, Shawn - simply not believing in God is a sin against him, comparable to rape, that deserves eternal suffering in Hell? This does not sound like a loving God. This sounds like a horrid, petty, bloodthirsty, vengeful God, determined to punish those who do not honor him, despite being worshipped and glorified by countless others.

Also, this God would punish even people who never had chance to know him the way most people do - through their family or their culture? People living in cultures with no Christians, no bibles, perhaps no ability to read, have to hope they will "see the light" described in John or hear God's call from heaven?

If you haven't thought about these things before, Shawn, please think about them now.

What kind of God is this?

E Favorite:

Your questions are difficult to deal with, yet we do have some insight from the Bible on them.

1)"Shawn B - what about people who never hear about the Gospel of Christ? what happens to them?

Response: Everyone born on this earth should see that there is a God from the natural world. In Romans 1 we have the quote that, "The heavens declare the glory of God." Although eternal forgiveness cannot be found through creation, it should cause a person to begin seeking.

We also see in John 1 that some "light" is given to every person in the world regarding the need for a deliverer from sin and punishment.

A person who seeks will find the answer in Christ.

2) "What about people who hear it and decide they don't need forgiveness because they don't feel they've committed any crimes against God?"

Answer: Unfortunately they haven't come to the understanding that all people have committed crimes against God. The radical message of Jesus is that not only is "murder" a crime, but hating your brother is just as bad. Everyone has hated someone at sometime. Christ offers forgiveness for every crime to those who will recieve it.

Crimes deserve punishment. Unfortunately, for someone who refuses pardon from Christ, they will take the punishment themselves.

This doesn't see odd to us on this earth. If someone rapes and they are not punished we would be outraged. Why should we feel that God should not deal with sins against him.

Re: Forgiveness not asked for...

I was taught (in the Congregational Church in fact) that forgiveness and grace are there whether you ask for them or not. Also, that the Lord will be there most urgently for those who need him most, whether a victim of violence or the perpetrator. We were taught to pray for our enemies, so that the Lord would change their hearts or provide whatever punishment was necessary.
Old-fashioned Catholics have a prayer: "Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins and save us from the fires of Hell and lead us all to glory especially those most in need of Thy mercy."

BTW one of the problems of the UCC is part of its strength: Since every congregation rules itself it is hard to find a church like the one you are used to if you move to a different part of the country.

Shawn B - what about people who never hear about the Gospel of Christ? what happens to them?

What about people who hear it and decide they don't need forgiveness because they don't feel they've committed any crimes against God?

Dr. Thistlewaite's message offers much hope for those victimized in this life. It’s true that Jesus can return joy to those robbed of it by criminals of men.

The additional message of the Gospel is that not only can the afflicted be healed but so can the afflicter. This makes Christ’s message scandalous to secular society. How can God forgive the vilest criminal? We can’t, but God can. The Gospel of Christ is for all who would believe that his death, burial and resurrection somehow paid for their crimes against God and can give them forgivenss and eternal life. This is the mystery of the Gospel.

Andrea,

It sounds as if you two will be having a great time, and that you have everything well in hand. Familes usually come around to accepting "the new order of the ages". If they don't they're best left to their own isolated selves.

I don't know if my wife and I are "quirky" but we're at least offbeat in our thinking, which we've managed to integrate with our very respectable public personae.* [I just asked my wife, who said she's not quirky but I am - how about that!]

*Except that Republicans, when I was politically active, considered me to be the spawn of Satan, particularly when I was effective. One Republican Governor, who liked my now wife, told people that "I can't understand why she's marrying that guy!"

Life is fun. Enjoy!

ANNONYmous et al

You said, (on the other thread); (On Preserving Faith in writing or oral recitations) etc.)

".... It's what many books and many pastors have echoed over many years ..."

During my International Smuggling days, ( Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, India etc., and all over there)

I remember when I would be sleeping, then awakened In some Inter Continental hotel, Marriott or in where ever Islam country [includes Turkey & Iran et al) THAT::

In ARABIC and now ON-LOUD- SPEAKERS systems, For all the world to hear ( I find that repulsive and insane) The Mosques & their Cantors (reciters or religious singers or Imam, would wake me up in that "...Allah Akbar..." Stuff!

It was as if the “Islamic Rooster” "Cocka Doodle Do's" or some Holy “alarm clock” was set off for your rude, or crude morning awakening. (Noon & Evenings too) . Ya Ya Mon! I

Hence: therefore ISLAM is a Publicly Forced thing as an Institution that is all knowing or Partially knowing or non knowing at all , by the noise makers turned Saber Rattlers .!?

Note: If one would dare to complain then you will surely have your tongue n Cheek removed or possibly whipped out, or chopped off, in so many primitive ways. Amazing how ancient they still are??!! Forge about that Cartoon Caricature of Mohammad & turban escalation recently

THIS Is WHY & How, Islam gets sustained or preserved. In Brooklyn, N.Y., the Cops will ticket them. and possibly close them down. Ya? Ya!

Now We should know why they are so wired in their faiths and show Hard Headed tendencies under those Shmottas (Yiddish for religious Garb or rags)..!

Oh, ANNONYMOUS, I like your Arabic Letters: in Shallah. Praise Eclati the true SOURCE ONE.

The all knowing and all powerful ECLAT.

Oh f orgot: The E.C.L.A.T.A.R.I.A.N. Faith, Belief, “Cosmic Feelers Religion” et al , IS BORN IN, New York, U.S.A. (1969 – 1989). And ALL Pre-Apocalyptic Faiths will go POOF-TIME!

Ya Ya Praise the Eclati. G-d Bless New York. Home sweet Home!

TRIVIA: Did you know that a Ducks Quacking does NOT MAKE an ECHO?!

Norrie,

We have found a particular congregation we like in an historic little town with a newly restored pipe organ from the 1890's (I think I'm a little too excited about that particular aspect!) and the church organist will be playing for the ceremony...no "traditional" stuff a la wedding marches, I've asked him if he knows any Beatles. If not, just some pretty classical music. My husb-to-be is a music buff, so I'll leave it up to him as to what music he'll play,as long as I'm not walking to "Smoke on the Water".

Our afterparty is going to be in the lodge of a popular ski resort in that area where we'll dance the night away to a mixture of 80's New Wave, Indie Rock, and 60's Rock.

I'm glad you were able to make your wedding exactly what you wanted. So many couples have to cater to an overbearing family. Mine's still a little apprehensive about the while UU thing...staunch Lutherans and all. But we're a quirky couple, and we want our wedding to be quirky as well!

I haven't decided if I'm ready now, or will be in the future, to attend church again. I have a lot of personal faith issues to sort out before I can make a decision like that. That's partly why I'm here!

Andrea,

Congratulations on your impending marriage. I gather you've found a particular UU church you like. The UCC must have a website that lists all their congregations. Maybe you've tried them already.

The American Unitarian Association, which merged with the Universalists, had its headquarters in a stately building atop Beacon Hill in Boston. Don't know if it's still there but they must have a website too, in case you need to find another location.

My dad was something of a bigwig in the AUA and its publishing arm, the Beacon Press. I like the UU's and the UCC's but they're not for me.

Anyway, if there are any UCC congregations in your part of the land, I'm sure you can locate them.

Weddings can be as much fun as my kind of funerals :-) and I'm sure yours will be.

My wife & I were married in our Governor's State House office. The Sergeant-at-Arms tried to block the ceremony on the ground that the legislature hadn't passed a resolution authorizing it to take place in the State House.

The guv replied that his office was part of the Executive Department, so we were married there.

We wrote our own ceremony. We vowed that our marriage would last as long as we wanted it to (and, implicitly, not a moment longer). On the way out an old pol from a blue-collar working class town commented "That's not how they do it in Barre!"

It was a lovely occasion and I'm sure yours will be too.

Andrea,

You're most definitely invited to the party, but, fortunately or unfortunately, I don't have the date yet. Keep in touch.

Best wishes.

Norrie,

Can I come to your "funeral"? Sounds fun, and you know I'm keen on copious amounts of alcohol ;) I've always been a fan of the roast idea. Everyone can come to my funeral and have a little fun at my expense. What will I care? I'll be gone!

I appreciate your conversation with Andrew. I'm leaning UU myself (I'll be married in a UU church this fall) but I'd be willing to check out a UCC if I can find one around here that fits Andrew's description (Nothing but Methodists and Lutherans in these here parts with a few Catholics and some Amish sprinkled in).

Right - as others have noted, Rev Thistlethwaite doesn't commit to a bodily resurrection, though "believers" reading her words might think she has.

Thus, all bases are covered and the deception continues.

Rev T - I'm sure you've done many good works. I imagine your position as president of a theological seminary is a delicate one, in terms of speaking freely and directly.

Still, I ask you and your colleagues find a way to stop the miscommunication and deception that is the ultimate result of trying not to offend anyone.

Andrew,

Thanks for your post. I'm actually more sympathetic to the UCC than I let on. The UCC church in our small northern New England town is wonderful. The minister is a former law partner of mine and a wonderful guy. He quit the law to study in Scotland for three years to become the church's minister. My wife and I and our children know many of the parishoners and like all of them.

My father's funeral was held there, though he lived in another state and hadn't been in a Congregational church for forty years. He later became a Unitarian, but he knew the classics and was at heart a Stoic.

My wife and I haven't discussed such things lately, but it wouldn't surprise me if she'd like to have her funeral there. It's a classic, tall, white-steepled church on the edge of the town green. Very Norman Rockwell. Not for me, though. My will specifies no funeral, but instructs my executor to throw a party for all who want to attend, at our local inn or on a meadow, with copious alcohol, to be paid for as a funeral expense.

Don't know why I've told you all this, except that I like you and am sympathetic to Congregationalists. (Sorry, I've never liked the UCC name - I hated it in 1957 when the name was taken). In the world of U.S. denominations today, it's one of the best. Episcopalians, though, still make the best martinis.

Please excuse my whimsy.

Hi Norrie,

There are many UCC members that I know who would be comfortable worshipping with members of a UU congregation, but our church body is still very much Christ-centered. What that means, though, is mostly left to individual congregations and members to explore as a members of the community. As such, our congregations and members can be very diverse, and most members seem to think of this diversity as one of our strengths, myself included. Most also seem to like that we don't have any doctrinal "tests" one must pass in order to worship with us.

I'm sorry to hear of your bad experiences growing up and hope that, if you were to ever visit a UCC church again, you'd find a much different experience today -- a welcome to you wherever you are in your "journey" with God.

Peace to you.

Andrew,

I'm glad to see that the UCC (Congregational Church) as I knew it when I was forced to attend its Sunday School in 1941-45, has evolved. That experience turned me away from Christianity forever.

What you describe sounds very Unitarian-Universalist to me. Perhaps the churches should merge.

Best wishes.

Norrie Hoyt:
"Rather more Unitarian or Wiccan than Congrgational [UCC], is it not?"

Actually, it fits in very well with the UCC, a church body open to diverse understandings of the Christ story. The beauty of the UCC structure is that it recognizes that people will have different understandings of the story, and that each person has a unique relationship with God. And, the UCC welcomes this diversity and is still able to build a community on it.

While I, as a UCC member, may not relate to another member's relationship with God or understanding of the Christ story, I can still learn from them and grow spiritually through my interaction with them. That's part of the joy and the work of being a community, especially a community based around God as experienced through Christ.

Dr. Thistlewaite says "I believe that Jesus of Nazareth, crucified, dead and buried, rose again in the disciples and in the faithful throughout the ages who have refused to let violence be the last word on human life."

This means, I think, that a Holy Man was killed and his followers still tell inspiring stories about him. Not exactly a traditional Christian theology, but one that has the advantage of being grounded in reality.

However, the world is as violent as ever, and I think the efficacy of Christianity to stop it is very much open to question.

Dr. Thistlewaite has helped a lot of people. I think she would help people even if she was Jewish, atheist, etc.

Preach!

"I believe that Jesus of Nazareth, crucified, dead and buried, rose again in the disciples and in the faithful throughout the ages who have refused to let violence be the last word on human life."

Not exactly the same as the Resurrection of the Body, though, is it?

Rather more Unitarian or Wiccan than Congrgational [UCC], is it not?