Rev. Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite is professor of theology at Chicago Theological Seminary and senior fellow at the Center for American Progress. She was president of CTS from 1998-2008. Her area of expertise is contextual theologies of liberation, specializing in issues of violence and violation. An ordained minister of the United Church of Christ since 1974, the “On Faith” panelist is the author or editor of thirteen books and has been a translator for two translations of the Bible. Her works include Casting Stones: Prostitution and Liberation in Asia and the United States (1996) and The New Testament and Psalms: An Inclusive Translation (1995). She edited and contributed to Adam, Eve and the Genome: Theology in Dialogue with the Human Genome Project (2003).
Close.
Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite
Professor, Chicago Theological Seminary
Rev. Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite is professor of theology at Chicago Theological Seminary and senior fellow at the Center for American Progress. She was president of CTS from 1998-2008.
more »
Norrie 16022:573
Blessed are the cat animals for they are in tune with the cosmos and pray more than humans. Follow in their footsteps and ye may catch spiritual mice. Cats are sentient beings and have a Buddha nature. All will attain enlightenment.
Revelation 1:7
Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.
Matthew 24:30
Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
With all respect, the accusation that scripture is "quoted out of context" is always made when anybody points out that many biblical passages contradict each other or say something that a certain type "True Believer" does not want to hear. To a True Believer, the Bible can never contradict itself, even if it requires torturing of language and reason to reconcile these passages. If the same True Believer was seeing comparable contradictions in, say, Buddhist sutras, they would conclude that the passages were written by many different people for the use of different groups with quite different ideas. But when the it pertains to their own "faith" they are blind to this possibility.
For example, a certain type of True Believer cannot accept that the group from which the Gospel of Matthew emerged had a very different idea than Paul on whether it was necessary to maintain Jewish law. The True Believer will claim that the passages that reveal these differences were "taken out of context".
Accept these differences, though, and you will be maybe just a little bit less certain about how the cosmos is organized. Give it a try. Stop drinking the Kool Aid.
Norrie
Yes I did miss the(?)in your sentence,and really should not have responded in the manner I did.I am sorry about that.
As a rule I don't engage in electronic conversations for like reasons.However yesterday someone quoted scripture out of context,I responded and-presto-here we are.
To answer your question if non believers go to Hell,in a word,yes.I say this sans smugness or any glee at all.This is my belief,my basis to accept this as truth;God's written word,my intelligence,and common sense.
I did not realize how far apart we were,per/ex.My comment on anguished parents over addict child.You saw me holding out God's threat of Hellfire.My intent there was to allegorize,Anguished parents=God Christ/addicted child=humanity/drugs=sin/drug dealer=satan/confrontation with dealer=Christ's earthly ministry/parents give own life to save child=Christ at calvary,humanity free from bondage to the power of sin.
In closing ,scripture tells me God sends no one to Hell,that decision is entirely up to us.As the forum question has changed hope you read this and respond.
Sincerely
Thanks so much for seeking me out. We all miss you when you're away from here. As I've told you before, your posts are the best.
You work so hard. I'm surprised to find you here at all - I hope you get very, very rich soon, if you aren't already.
What to call me? I don't know - I don't label myself, which would be constricting and to some degree inaccurate. That's one reason I call myself a Buddhist sympathizer - It gives me several degrees of freedom.
Here are some components of me. If you want to try to weave a description out of them, that would be fine.
I've always been very interested in religions, history, science, government & politics, and paranormal and occult happenings. I wonder about the "real" nature of the universe, and what, if anything, happens to us when we die.
I'm agnostic as to all theologies and religious practices and as to whether there is something like a god behind the creation. I've always agonized over the cruelties of this world.
I accept the core Buddhist ethical system as I understand it, shorn of its oriental, historical and cultural baggage. There's a popular book, "Buddhism Without Beliefs", whose title pretty well describes where I am vis-a-vis Buddhism.
I'm sufficiently agnostic that I could easily depart from Buddhism if I came across something that I thought was more in accord with my perceptions of existence. Haven't found it yet.
Curiously, the psychic relationships I've had with cats during my life have put me in touch with what I think of as a "universal being" or "spirit" (the Tao?), and attracted me to Buddhism because it says people, cats, and other animals have essentially the same nature.
Based on recent research, I think Buddhism should start thinking of plants as being "sentient beings" too.
Paranormal events have happened in relation to our cats and their lives and deaths. In my twenties and thirties I experienced many paranormal events involving humans, which pursuaded me that things are not at all as they seem.
Wow, I really went on, didn't I? This thread is about to evaporate. Some of this past week's threads have already been replaced by essays on religion and the media.
I hope this post gets to you. And thanks for your message. Best to you.
Thanks for your info in another thread here re Mormons waging war too Norrie. Never knew that.
I took time out from work to find you to say that and here you are engaged in a sustained war of words with a believer of God. Extraordinary! I am all too familiar with what we call "enthusiastic" Muslims. They have so much vim and determination to lead us to the right path. Usually lay Muslims and not imams, and most easily identified by their incessant quotes of Suras to make their points and yet half-grasped.
Nice to see that everyone asserting their personal beliefs. People do get killed or are willing to die for what they believe in throughout history.
Shall I come out with a new category for people like you? Say, believer sans belief in God? Or, rational God-free believer? Or logical believer of Buddhist precepts? I do think of you now as an existentialist partial to Buddhism. Existentialist as in trying to push back believers of God and getting pushed back by them.
Cheer up my friend. The end is not near not matter what some advocates and hasteners of the Rapture say and tries to do to bring to an end to all this. Like the mass suicide in Jonestown, but on a global scale. How reprehensible.
Tone, manner and style make a big difference in these discussions.
If you self-identified "Christians" really want to help non-believers on these threads avoid going to Hell, you should understand that a decent person will not respond to threats, including threats of hellfire.
You might want to think about trying a different approach.
"Would you not wish to be informed that someone was trying to break into your home?"
Your analogy assumes that the existence of the intruder is an unquestioned fact. I could look all around my home a million times and never find anyone trying to break in, but you would keep insisting that there was. So either you would be honestly mistaken, or you would want me out of the home so you could break in yourself.
If you want people to believe that you really care about them, you would not have any beliefs at all about their afterlives. You would only have a belief about your own afterlife, because in your religion that is the only thing that you have the power to change.
"Norrie, On what basis did you make your judgment?"
Answer: My intelligence, ordinary human emotion, and common sense.
Guys: As the old punch-line goes, "Can't we just be friends?"
It is unseemly and impolite to threaten your friends with hellfire and damnation if they don't accept and follow through on your exact theological prescription.
Even if you believe your friend is in danger of going to Hell, just tell him that in a calm, helpful, way.
Don't overbear him with threats and what seems to be a rather gleeful anticipation of his doom.
"Norrie, On what basis did you make your judgment?"
Answer: My intelligence, ordinary human emotion, and common sense.
Guys: As the old punch-line goes, "Can't we just be friends?"
It is unseemly and impolite to threaten your friends with hellfire and damnation if they don't accept and follow through on your exact theological prescription.
Even if you believe your friend is in danger of going to Hell, just tell him that in a calm, helpful, way.
Don't overbear him with threats and what seems to be a rather gleeful anticipation of his doom.
"And it seems to me that Pablo & Co. (including you?) treat everyone who disagrees in the slightest with you as Hell fodder."
Please note the question mark. That was placed there because I wasn't sure that you took the same position as "Pablo & Co."
I was raising the question of whether you shared their "Hell fodder" view.
I thought you might because of an earlier post where you wrote:
'The statement "God introduced sin into the world----"is where we differ.
As far as I can tell sin is the one single thing God hates.
He hates sin because it separates Him from His creation,-us.
Just as parents anguish over a child lost in drug addiction,they want their child back.Loving parents will do whatever it takes to get their creation back.They will confront the drug dealer,they will even give their own life to save their addicted child.
So God moved against sin on our behalf.Why should we expect anything less from Him?'
To which I responded:
'4th Watch,
"Loving parents will do whatever it takes to get their creation back."
Like burning and tormenting their child forever?
Parents could teach God a lesson about dealing humanely with children.'
I wrote that because, while you didn't say so, it seemed clear to me that you were holding out God's threat of hellfire as a means of getting His children to stop sinning. And, as every parent knows, you have to carry through on your threats.
So, 4'th Watch, do you believe a person goes to Hell if s/he dies an unrepentant non-believing person?
We will never convince each other. I must politely disagree with everything in your last reply, especially about what it means to "know" something. It seems that your faith, something that I do not have, provides you a means to "know" things that is not available to me.
I remain unconvinced by arguments for the historicity of Jesus. I tend to suspect that he probably existed but that virtually everything we think we know about him was added later and is comprised of hero stories commonly told about "gods" in that era mixed together with bits and pieces of Stoic philosophy and Jewish ascetism. To this was added some of Paul's writing, which find meaning only in the supposed death of Jesus and make virtually no reference to anything that may have happened in his life. This is not an attempt at a "cop-out".
Pablo
If you are not convinced by the evidence for evolution by natural selection, then you are either unaware of it (in which case this is not the time or place for me to present it to you) or you cannot be convinced by any kind of scientific thinking. So be it.
When one looks at a painting one knows that the painting has a painter. When one looks at the creation one sees that there is a creator. Design requires a designer. A building a builder. Do you think that you are the result of blind natural causes or a designer who made you with a purpose?
I'm sorry but I don't really understand your comment. Would you care to expand upon what you said? What's America got to do with things? And it seems to me that Pablo & Co. (including you?) treat everyone who disagrees in the slightest with you as Hell fodder. Talk about painting with one brush!
I was going to stay out of this thread after leaving my good-night joke last evening.
I'm tired and the endless rounds of shadowboxing between totally incompatible viewpoints is draining.
But I can't let you guys tilt at your theological windmills unchallenged. So here I am again:
I have never seen or heard any convincing evidence that anything like the supposed Judaeo-Christian-Islamist diety exists.
Your endless threats of damnation and hellfire, addressed to those good people who don't share your beliefs, tell me that you do not represent Jesus, are not "Christian," and are on the side of Satan and the Antichrist.
I am convinced that the most Christian people on the planet today are Buddhists, and Buddhists do not believe in any god.
Your overweening certainty of the truth of your cruel beliefs is tedious and unseemly.
Please, give it all a rest for your sakes and mine.
I love you all dearly but believe you are as wrong as people can be.
Ba'al,
Must have misinterpreted your inital post.
Thought you meant in all your research you had not found an explanation that would allow you to believe in God.What exactly did you mean?
We are free to believe as we wish.I believe that freedom to do so comes to us from God.
One of my tenets is a persons belief,or unbelief in no form or fasion makes them superior or inferior to anyone else.Point out the person who is the baseline for such a judgement call and I might have to reconsider.
How is "God is clearly seen in what He has made" a credible answer to the question of creation? Clearly seen by whom? Maybe by you, but what about others?
Using the words cherry picking does not prove what was said is wrong. Please refute something instead of stating that I am cherry picking. Give us all some empirical proof of evolution. You cannot, thus, you believe it by faith not scientific proof. I did not know that nature could draw up plans and create a universe with purpose. I guess your are implying that nature is an all powerful and all-knowing person?
Trivia Question:
1. Which thing is the result of Nature plus Chance?
A. A little Boy
B. GI Joe
2. Which thing is the result of Nature plus Chance?
A. A Globe
B. A Planet
Naturalistic Evolution says the boy and the planet were the result of blind natural forces and that the GI Joe and the Globe were designed and made by an intelligent being.
Which of the things above is more complex the boy or the GI Joe? The planet or the globe?
This cannot be put more plainly but I am afraid that people will believe what they want to in order to escape being accountable to God. This is sad because God is good and He gives life to those who believe.
As Christians our job is that of watchmen. Our goal to warn people of the need for repentance. We cannot truly save nor can we really convert. The only real conversion is by the Holy spirit who places faith in a human heart that that previously unbelieving human may then truly believe God and be accounted as righteous. It is only God changing the heart that saves, your actions following that heart change are now become natural and of little note to you when you are following the path God laid out for you.
Compare the Sheep and the Goats. The goats ask when did we see you and not and they lay before God great resumes of their good deeds and God says to them If you missed even one it was one too many. But the sheep seem utterly unaware of having done anything at all and hear from God's lips if you helped even the least it was enough.
You seem to have read my post but not understood it. That's OK; I read your posts and can't understand them either. You have found the redemption you need; may your Lord bless you and keep you.
You trust in nature yet nature is dependant not independent. I trust in God who is transcendent and the one on which all things rest for their existence. Worship the maker not what has been made. "The heavens declare the glory of God” Created things point to his genius His glory. I have eternal life because I trust in the eternal God.
Thank you for your exposition on Wicca. You are saying the same thing I said above but with more clarity.
The problem is that all have sinned there is no one who is really good except God. We need forgiveness and redemption. This is clearly seen in the mess we have made of managing the planet that God has made us stewards of. You say you do not understand the biblical concept of God but He is clearly seen in what He has made. Your conscience tells you that you are guilty and in need of forgiveness. The righteousness of self will never be good enough for the transcendent God. He demands perfection. I do not have that perfection so I look to the ONE who does. His name is Jesus and He came to redeem sinners who believe.
The Divine is immanent in the Creation. God is everywhere, in you, me, and yes, the worms. We are part of Divine; the Divine is inseparately part of us. To revel in the scent of lilacs, the songs of the birds, the beauty of all life, is to honor the Divine.
As for sin, the Wiccan Rede states, "If it harm none, do what you will". Responsibility to the other must come first. To act with hatred or arrogance to any part of Creation is to show disrespect to the Divine. The Law of the Three-Fold Return promises that whatever energy you send out will be returned three times to you. Any time I have acted with arrogance or cruelty towards anything else it has come back to me, if only in the knowledge that I had a chance to act kindly and did not.
Pablo, the concept of God that I get from your posts is so foreign to my experience as to be incomprehensible to me. My Lord and Lady are my loving parents; I was sent here to learn, not to burn.
Can you give me proof of evolution from one kind to another that has been observed or measured? I asked this simple question when evolution was first brought up on this thread and no one has given one credible answer.
I know that you do not "believe" there is a God. I'm saying that you intrinsically "know" there is a God because He has manifested Himself in creation and because without a relationship with Him we are incomplete. That is why every civilization throughout history, even those in the most isolated and remote areas of earth, have an innate concept of God that they revere or worship.
Just as we yearn for a relationship with our creator, so God yearns for a relationship with us. That's why He sent His Son to walk among us and to die for us so that we may be reconciled to Him and believe because of the words, deeds and resurection of Jesus Christ.
To deny Jesus' existence is a cop out. No conglomeration of fakers could construct such a person or ascribe to Him the sort of wisdom that after 2000 years continues to illuminate and define all of our frailties, hopes and aspirations.
I have spent time with Wiccan believers from time to time and I have also read about Wicca. Maybe you can teach me more? If I am wrong please correct me. It would be foolish for me not to receive correction when I am wrong. I am not claiming that Wicca is solely pantheistic. It is also animistic and polytheistic.
Your anger is exploding through the screen. I pray you will find peace. Jesus was also angry with coveting money and hypocrisy. Are you then on the same side as Him or are you looking for an excuse to reject Him by pointing at the flaws of those who believe? Are you flawless? I think not, I think you need forgiveness just like we all do.
How do you know, exactly, what Wicca is? How do you presume to know what Wiccan believes? Making a statement such as the one you made without knowlege of what you are talking about makes you look like a bigot, and I'm sure that wasn't your intent. I admire the ferocity in which you defend your beliefs, but you come off as offensive from time to time.
Oops, the last sentence in my last post was very badly written. I meant to say that the fact that we are products of evolution by natural selection does not give us the right to behave badly. We have culture too, and we should pay special care and consideration to other people and other creatures -- and we should enjoy our lives as much as we can within those constraints.
But what does Wicca do for the problem of sin? One thing about Wicca is that it is pantheistic and its adherents worship the creation. It fits right in with naturalism that states that nature is all there is. Satan is a master at packaging the same lie for different types of people. The problem with this is that it puts worms on an equal stand as humans. In that case watch your step for you may be treading on God.
The Egyptians worshipped frogs that is why one of the plagues God sent on them was frogs everywhere. There were so many frogs that an Egyptian could not take a step without treading on them. God was saying you want to worship frogs I will give you frogs. He gave them so many that they would step on them showing them the foolishness of worshipping the creation instead of the creator. That is what Wicca is, worship of the creation instead of the Creator.
Pablo
“Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen” (Romans 1:24-25).
I can honestly say that I do not believe there is a god.
4th Watch, that belief means that I do not have to tie myself into knots trying to explain how evil came into the world (and I don't have to suppose the existence of angels, fallen or otherwise, or talking snakes or magical gardens 6000 years ago -- or why if fallen angels have so much power, why it is the fault of Adam and Even that god allowed such a spirit to influence two people who were so naive).
Because I don't have to explain where evil came from, that does not mean that I have to like it, or that I want to see the world destroyed by people's actions, or that I do not think that people should act in an upright manner that is morally beyond some minimal evolutionary imperative.
Ba'al
Your question as you noted is one for the ages.
Theologians responses range as far and wide as they dared to permit their minds to take them.
How can one possibly presume to know the full mind of God?
I can only comment truthfully on some fragments
that I have found to be the truth.
God recognizes and respects humans ability to choose how they will live or exist.\Gen.4:6-10/
Apparently this holds true for Angels also.
Proof being lucifer and the 1/3 deciding to war against God and His creation.
Thus we can truthfully say
satan displayed evil to humanity.
Man and Woman looked it over and accepted it into their lives,actually allowed evil to be tangible in this world.
Lets remember,God gave authority over the world to Man and Woman.It was their garden to allow evil to enter or not.
Norrie hope your comment was attended here also.
Everyone who posts on these threads, in their hearts, knows there is a God. Nothing else can possibly explain how "fearfully and wonderfully" we were made. Nothing else can adequately account for man's persistent sinful nature and nothing else can cure the universal longing for hope, love and purpose.
One day, dear Pablo, all of the people on this thread who deny Jesus' very existence will bend their knees and bow their heads at the very mention of His name; and they will rue the arrogance and anger that kept them from seeing the light of grace, which is so astonishingly clear, and freely given.
No one need go to Hell. All you have to do is ask to be saved. As Jesus himself said:
9"So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
10"For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.
OH JESUS PLEEZE ALL THAT CUMMING IS A BUNCH OF BS!! I REFUSE TO CUM BACK I DONT LIKE IT DOWN THERE!
ITS ALL A SCAM RUN BY MONEYGRABBING HOMOPHOBIC PREACHERS , SHE JESUS/GOD IS NEVER CUMMING BACK BECAUSE SHE DOESNT EXIST ITS A FARCE DEAR READERS DONT LET THEM SELL YOU ALL THIS HOKUS POKUS .RELIGION IS THE PROBELM AND NOT THE ANSWER.
It seems to me Christians are consumed with the end of the world, and prophesies. I think this author figured it out, 'The Sudanese child alrerady sees the end of the world.'
Christians worrying about the end of the world and prophesies, should concern themselves with those people still here and working for their happiness instead of worrying about the end of the world.
Just as Jeff Salz said, "To live a life in service of others is truly a noble life.'
The reality is suffering is here now, and those that die, the world has come to an end for them, except we did not see them perish or suffer, like the little African child with the Vulture waiting for her to die so the Vulture could survive. The author killed themselves due to the understanding of this childs future.
Like the rapper says, "Hell is a place called home!"
The world will not end unless we all kill each other in the process, like a nuclear winter. Common Sense. This has nothing to do with religion, but respecting people instead, I believe.
It seems my understanding (or misunderstanding) of the Christian theology led me to be disrespectful, and that was wrong of me. I apologize.
I am not a god, but I am part of the Divine's creation, and, as such, the Divine is part of me. The Lord and Lady are my loving parents, and They hold me safe in their arms. May your understanding of the Divine bring you the joy and comfort that my understanding has brought me. Blessed Be.
This makes the point even stronger because even when he knew that evolution was not fact he asserted evolution as a fact and not a fact and thus contradicted himself. People will believe anything to escape accountability to God.
Being rejected by His own creation and being nailed on a cross is not enough for you.
"Greater love has no one than this, that someone lays down his life for his friends" (John 15:13).
A young teenage girl was embarrassed of her mother because her mother had grotesque scars on her face and body. One day when a friend was over the mother overheard her daughter talking to her friend and complaining about the embarrassment her mother causes her when she comes around her in public. Later after the teenager's friend left her mother sat her down to talk. She said when you were a baby our house caught on fire. The firemen came and got everyone out of the house except you. When I realize that you were not safe I ran back into the house even though the firemen shouted to me to stop. I ran to your crib and wrapped you in a blanket and ran out of the house with my dress on fire. Then she said, “See these scars on my face and my body these scars were for you. I never told you that the reason I was burned in a fire was to save you because I did not want you to live in quilt.” After that, the girl knew the love of her mother in a new way. The scars no longer bothered her. In fact when she saw them they reminded her of her mother's love for her.
It would be the absolute height of contempt and selfishness if the girl would have questioned her mother's love. It is the absolute height of arrogance, selfishness, and contempt to question the love of Jesus Christ. Yes He will cast you into hell unless you repent. It will be what you deserve but it does not have to be that way. I am not any better then you yet I have experienced God's forgiveness. The scars of Christ show me how much He loved me. His scars were for you. I am not ashamed of Him. I love Him because He first loved me.
Pablo,
"However, the editors of The Revised Quote Book neglect to tell their readers that in the same book by Grasse from which they have quoted, Grasse also stated in the most unequivocal terms: "Zoologists and botanists are nearly unanimous in considering evolution as a fact and not a hypothesis. I agree with this position and base it primarily on documents provided by paleontology, i.e., the history of the living world ... [Also,] Embryogenesis provides valuable data [concerning evolutionary relationships] ... Chemistry, through its analytical data, directs biologists and provides guidance in their search for affinities between groups of animals or plants, and ... plays an important part in the approach to genuine evolution." (Pierre P. Grasse, Evolution of Living Organisms, Academic Press, New York, 1977, pp. 3,4,5,7)"
Man does not have more compassion than God. Be careful with your mocking. He is completely just and completely good. We may not understand that in our fallen nature but we need to trust that God is good. Goodness is one of His attributes or else He is not God. Humankind continually tries to make God less then He is because most people want to justify their ungodliness. Maybe you have too high of an opinion of yourself. Do you ever lie? Do you ever lose your temper when you should not? Do you ever fail to help those in need when you have the ability to do so? God sees all the hidden thoughts, intentions, and motives. He is not fooled by any facade. That is why it is best to come out of denial and admit your sin problem. God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.
All Comments (171)
I don't think John Hagee's opinion on endtimes events got us into Iraq.
I seem to remember something about rape-rooms, genocide of the Kurds, and defiance of UN sanctions.
April 8, 2007 1:32 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 8, 2007 01:32
Luther also chased Satan away with farts.
March 28, 2007 9:57 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 28, 2007 09:57
Norrie 16022:573
Blessed are the cat animals for they are in tune with the cosmos and pray more than humans. Follow in their footsteps and ye may catch spiritual mice. Cats are sentient beings and have a Buddha nature. All will attain enlightenment.
March 28, 2007 9:52 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 28, 2007 09:52
Norrie 16:92
Love God and do as you please.
Also found in M. Luther's writings.
March 28, 2007 9:45 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 28, 2007 09:45
Revelation 1:7
Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.
March 28, 2007 9:15 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 28, 2007 09:15
Matthew 24:30
Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
March 28, 2007 9:15 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 28, 2007 09:15
4th Watch
With all respect, the accusation that scripture is "quoted out of context" is always made when anybody points out that many biblical passages contradict each other or say something that a certain type "True Believer" does not want to hear. To a True Believer, the Bible can never contradict itself, even if it requires torturing of language and reason to reconcile these passages. If the same True Believer was seeing comparable contradictions in, say, Buddhist sutras, they would conclude that the passages were written by many different people for the use of different groups with quite different ideas. But when the it pertains to their own "faith" they are blind to this possibility.
For example, a certain type of True Believer cannot accept that the group from which the Gospel of Matthew emerged had a very different idea than Paul on whether it was necessary to maintain Jewish law. The True Believer will claim that the passages that reveal these differences were "taken out of context".
Accept these differences, though, and you will be maybe just a little bit less certain about how the cosmos is organized. Give it a try. Stop drinking the Kool Aid.
March 28, 2007 6:42 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 28, 2007 06:42
4'th Watch,
Thanks for your post. I got a little lost in your next-to-last paragraph and am afraid I don't really comprehend it.
If you read my earlier posts in this thread, you have a pretty good idea of where I'm at with respect to these discussions.
I wish you the best.
March 27, 2007 10:36 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 27, 2007 22:36
Norrie
Yes I did miss the(?)in your sentence,and really should not have responded in the manner I did.I am sorry about that.
As a rule I don't engage in electronic conversations for like reasons.However yesterday someone quoted scripture out of context,I responded and-presto-here we are.
To answer your question if non believers go to Hell,in a word,yes.I say this sans smugness or any glee at all.This is my belief,my basis to accept this as truth;God's written word,my intelligence,and common sense.
I did not realize how far apart we were,per/ex.My comment on anguished parents over addict child.You saw me holding out God's threat of Hellfire.My intent there was to allegorize,Anguished parents=God Christ/addicted child=humanity/drugs=sin/drug dealer=satan/confrontation with dealer=Christ's earthly ministry/parents give own life to save child=Christ at calvary,humanity free from bondage to the power of sin.
In closing ,scripture tells me God sends no one to Hell,that decision is entirely up to us.As the forum question has changed hope you read this and respond.
Sincerely
March 27, 2007 10:03 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 27, 2007 22:03
Jihadist,
Thanks so much for seeking me out. We all miss you when you're away from here. As I've told you before, your posts are the best.
You work so hard. I'm surprised to find you here at all - I hope you get very, very rich soon, if you aren't already.
What to call me? I don't know - I don't label myself, which would be constricting and to some degree inaccurate. That's one reason I call myself a Buddhist sympathizer - It gives me several degrees of freedom.
Here are some components of me. If you want to try to weave a description out of them, that would be fine.
I've always been very interested in religions, history, science, government & politics, and paranormal and occult happenings. I wonder about the "real" nature of the universe, and what, if anything, happens to us when we die.
I'm agnostic as to all theologies and religious practices and as to whether there is something like a god behind the creation. I've always agonized over the cruelties of this world.
I accept the core Buddhist ethical system as I understand it, shorn of its oriental, historical and cultural baggage. There's a popular book, "Buddhism Without Beliefs", whose title pretty well describes where I am vis-a-vis Buddhism.
I'm sufficiently agnostic that I could easily depart from Buddhism if I came across something that I thought was more in accord with my perceptions of existence. Haven't found it yet.
Curiously, the psychic relationships I've had with cats during my life have put me in touch with what I think of as a "universal being" or "spirit" (the Tao?), and attracted me to Buddhism because it says people, cats, and other animals have essentially the same nature.
Based on recent research, I think Buddhism should start thinking of plants as being "sentient beings" too.
Paranormal events have happened in relation to our cats and their lives and deaths. In my twenties and thirties I experienced many paranormal events involving humans, which pursuaded me that things are not at all as they seem.
Wow, I really went on, didn't I? This thread is about to evaporate. Some of this past week's threads have already been replaced by essays on religion and the media.
I hope this post gets to you. And thanks for your message. Best to you.
March 27, 2007 8:49 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 27, 2007 20:49
Norrie,
Thanks for your info in another thread here re Mormons waging war too Norrie. Never knew that.
I took time out from work to find you to say that and here you are engaged in a sustained war of words with a believer of God. Extraordinary! I am all too familiar with what we call "enthusiastic" Muslims. They have so much vim and determination to lead us to the right path. Usually lay Muslims and not imams, and most easily identified by their incessant quotes of Suras to make their points and yet half-grasped.
Nice to see that everyone asserting their personal beliefs. People do get killed or are willing to die for what they believe in throughout history.
Shall I come out with a new category for people like you? Say, believer sans belief in God? Or, rational God-free believer? Or logical believer of Buddhist precepts? I do think of you now as an existentialist partial to Buddhism. Existentialist as in trying to push back believers of God and getting pushed back by them.
Cheer up my friend. The end is not near not matter what some advocates and hasteners of the Rapture say and tries to do to bring to an end to all this. Like the mass suicide in Jonestown, but on a global scale. How reprehensible.
All the best.
March 27, 2007 6:45 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 27, 2007 18:45
Anonymous,
Tone, manner and style make a big difference in these discussions.
If you self-identified "Christians" really want to help non-believers on these threads avoid going to Hell, you should understand that a decent person will not respond to threats, including threats of hellfire.
You might want to think about trying a different approach.
March 27, 2007 5:56 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 27, 2007 17:56
"Would you not wish to be informed that someone was trying to break into your home?"
Your analogy assumes that the existence of the intruder is an unquestioned fact. I could look all around my home a million times and never find anyone trying to break in, but you would keep insisting that there was. So either you would be honestly mistaken, or you would want me out of the home so you could break in yourself.
If you want people to believe that you really care about them, you would not have any beliefs at all about their afterlives. You would only have a belief about your own afterlife, because in your religion that is the only thing that you have the power to change.
March 27, 2007 2:30 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 27, 2007 14:30
Ladies and gentlemen we do not threaten you with hellfire and damnation we merely inform you of its presence that is our job descrition in this world.
Would you not wish to be informed that someone was trying to break into your home? For we Christians the situations are completely analogous.
March 27, 2007 12:59 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 27, 2007 12:59
Sorry for the double post.
March 27, 2007 12:18 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 27, 2007 12:18
Pablo, you asked:
"Norrie, On what basis did you make your judgment?"
Answer: My intelligence, ordinary human emotion, and common sense.
Guys: As the old punch-line goes, "Can't we just be friends?"
It is unseemly and impolite to threaten your friends with hellfire and damnation if they don't accept and follow through on your exact theological prescription.
Even if you believe your friend is in danger of going to Hell, just tell him that in a calm, helpful, way.
Don't overbear him with threats and what seems to be a rather gleeful anticipation of his doom.
Regards.
March 27, 2007 12:16 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 27, 2007 12:16
Pablo, you asked:
"Norrie, On what basis did you make your judgment?"
Answer: My intelligence, ordinary human emotion, and common sense.
Guys: As the old punch-line goes, "Can't we just be friends?"
It is unseemly and impolite to threaten your friends with hellfire and damnation if they don't accept and follow through on your exact theological prescription.
Even if you believe your friend is in danger of going to Hell, just tell him that in a calm, helpful, way.
Don't overbear him with threats and what seems to be a rather gleeful anticipation of his doom.
Regards.
March 27, 2007 12:10 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 27, 2007 12:10
4'th Watch,
I wrote:
"And it seems to me that Pablo & Co. (including you?) treat everyone who disagrees in the slightest with you as Hell fodder."
Please note the question mark. That was placed there because I wasn't sure that you took the same position as "Pablo & Co."
I was raising the question of whether you shared their "Hell fodder" view.
I thought you might because of an earlier post where you wrote:
'The statement "God introduced sin into the world----"is where we differ.
As far as I can tell sin is the one single thing God hates.
He hates sin because it separates Him from His creation,-us.
Just as parents anguish over a child lost in drug addiction,they want their child back.Loving parents will do whatever it takes to get their creation back.They will confront the drug dealer,they will even give their own life to save their addicted child.
So God moved against sin on our behalf.Why should we expect anything less from Him?'
To which I responded:
'4th Watch,
"Loving parents will do whatever it takes to get their creation back."
Like burning and tormenting their child forever?
Parents could teach God a lesson about dealing humanely with children.'
I wrote that because, while you didn't say so, it seemed clear to me that you were holding out God's threat of hellfire as a means of getting His children to stop sinning. And, as every parent knows, you have to carry through on your threats.
So, 4'th Watch, do you believe a person goes to Hell if s/he dies an unrepentant non-believing person?
March 27, 2007 11:54 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 27, 2007 11:54
Believer,
We will never convince each other. I must politely disagree with everything in your last reply, especially about what it means to "know" something. It seems that your faith, something that I do not have, provides you a means to "know" things that is not available to me.
I remain unconvinced by arguments for the historicity of Jesus. I tend to suspect that he probably existed but that virtually everything we think we know about him was added later and is comprised of hero stories commonly told about "gods" in that era mixed together with bits and pieces of Stoic philosophy and Jewish ascetism. To this was added some of Paul's writing, which find meaning only in the supposed death of Jesus and make virtually no reference to anything that may have happened in his life. This is not an attempt at a "cop-out".
Pablo
If you are not convinced by the evidence for evolution by natural selection, then you are either unaware of it (in which case this is not the time or place for me to present it to you) or you cannot be convinced by any kind of scientific thinking. So be it.
March 27, 2007 9:45 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 27, 2007 09:45
So what you're saying Pablo is that I didn't come from my parents having sex? Dang! There goes that whole birds and bees talk right out the window.
I am gonna go call the stork delivery service and see what happens, maybe I'll get a baby that way.
March 27, 2007 12:11 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 27, 2007 00:11
Norrie
Whom did I threaten with hellfire or treat as fodder?
March 26, 2007 11:51 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 23:51
Norrie ,
What an ugly thing to say.Please review my posts before condemning me.
I truly meant no harm to you or anyone.
Sincerely
March 26, 2007 11:42 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 23:42
Norrie,
One what basis do you make your judgment?
Pablo
March 26, 2007 10:53 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 22:53
Andrea,
When one looks at a painting one knows that the painting has a painter. When one looks at the creation one sees that there is a creator. Design requires a designer. A building a builder. Do you think that you are the result of blind natural causes or a designer who made you with a purpose?
Pablo
March 26, 2007 10:51 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 22:51
4'th Watch,
I'm sorry but I don't really understand your comment. Would you care to expand upon what you said? What's America got to do with things? And it seems to me that Pablo & Co. (including you?) treat everyone who disagrees in the slightest with you as Hell fodder. Talk about painting with one brush!
Regards to you.
March 26, 2007 10:26 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 22:26
Norrie
Do you always paint with the one size fits all brush,and expect silence on the front.What kind of diplomacy is that?--*!Got to be American.
March 26, 2007 10:15 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 22:15
Go Norrie - thanks for hanging in there.
March 26, 2007 8:35 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 20:35
Wiccan,
You wrote:
'As for sin, the Wiccan Rede states, "If it harm none, do what you will."'
Martin Luther said the same thing: "Love God and do as you please."
Hope you slept well last night.
March 26, 2007 8:14 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 20:14
Pablo and other Christians believers,
I was going to stay out of this thread after leaving my good-night joke last evening.
I'm tired and the endless rounds of shadowboxing between totally incompatible viewpoints is draining.
But I can't let you guys tilt at your theological windmills unchallenged. So here I am again:
I have never seen or heard any convincing evidence that anything like the supposed Judaeo-Christian-Islamist diety exists.
Your endless threats of damnation and hellfire, addressed to those good people who don't share your beliefs, tell me that you do not represent Jesus, are not "Christian," and are on the side of Satan and the Antichrist.
I am convinced that the most Christian people on the planet today are Buddhists, and Buddhists do not believe in any god.
Your overweening certainty of the truth of your cruel beliefs is tedious and unseemly.
Please, give it all a rest for your sakes and mine.
I love you all dearly but believe you are as wrong as people can be.
March 26, 2007 8:07 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 20:07
Ba'al,
Must have misinterpreted your inital post.
Thought you meant in all your research you had not found an explanation that would allow you to believe in God.What exactly did you mean?
We are free to believe as we wish.I believe that freedom to do so comes to us from God.
One of my tenets is a persons belief,or unbelief in no form or fasion makes them superior or inferior to anyone else.Point out the person who is the baseline for such a judgement call and I might have to reconsider.
March 26, 2007 7:32 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 19:32
Pablo,
How is "God is clearly seen in what He has made" a credible answer to the question of creation? Clearly seen by whom? Maybe by you, but what about others?
March 26, 2007 7:27 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 19:27
Hello Wiccan,
No, I understand you completely but disagree. I know that is not popular in a "post-modern" world.
Pablo
March 26, 2007 5:53 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 17:53
BobD:
Using the words cherry picking does not prove what was said is wrong. Please refute something instead of stating that I am cherry picking. Give us all some empirical proof of evolution. You cannot, thus, you believe it by faith not scientific proof. I did not know that nature could draw up plans and create a universe with purpose. I guess your are implying that nature is an all powerful and all-knowing person?
Trivia Question:
1. Which thing is the result of Nature plus Chance?
A. A little Boy
B. GI Joe
2. Which thing is the result of Nature plus Chance?
A. A Globe
B. A Planet
Naturalistic Evolution says the boy and the planet were the result of blind natural forces and that the GI Joe and the Globe were designed and made by an intelligent being.
Which of the things above is more complex the boy or the GI Joe? The planet or the globe?
This cannot be put more plainly but I am afraid that people will believe what they want to in order to escape being accountable to God. This is sad because God is good and He gives life to those who believe.
Pablo
March 26, 2007 5:49 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 17:49
As Christians our job is that of watchmen. Our goal to warn people of the need for repentance. We cannot truly save nor can we really convert. The only real conversion is by the Holy spirit who places faith in a human heart that that previously unbelieving human may then truly believe God and be accounted as righteous. It is only God changing the heart that saves, your actions following that heart change are now become natural and of little note to you when you are following the path God laid out for you.
Compare the Sheep and the Goats. The goats ask when did we see you and not and they lay before God great resumes of their good deeds and God says to them If you missed even one it was one too many. But the sheep seem utterly unaware of having done anything at all and hear from God's lips if you helped even the least it was enough.
March 26, 2007 5:38 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 17:38
Pablo-
You seem to have read my post but not understood it. That's OK; I read your posts and can't understand them either. You have found the redemption you need; may your Lord bless you and keep you.
March 26, 2007 5:18 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 17:18
Wiccan,
You trust in nature yet nature is dependant not independent. I trust in God who is transcendent and the one on which all things rest for their existence. Worship the maker not what has been made. "The heavens declare the glory of God” Created things point to his genius His glory. I have eternal life because I trust in the eternal God.
Pablo
March 26, 2007 5:12 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 17:12
Andrea,
God is clearly seen in what He has made.
Pablo
March 26, 2007 5:05 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 17:05
Wiccan,
Thank you for your exposition on Wicca. You are saying the same thing I said above but with more clarity.
The problem is that all have sinned there is no one who is really good except God. We need forgiveness and redemption. This is clearly seen in the mess we have made of managing the planet that God has made us stewards of. You say you do not understand the biblical concept of God but He is clearly seen in what He has made. Your conscience tells you that you are guilty and in need of forgiveness. The righteousness of self will never be good enough for the transcendent God. He demands perfection. I do not have that perfection so I look to the ONE who does. His name is Jesus and He came to redeem sinners who believe.
Pablo
March 26, 2007 5:04 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 17:04
Pablo-
The Divine is immanent in the Creation. God is everywhere, in you, me, and yes, the worms. We are part of Divine; the Divine is inseparately part of us. To revel in the scent of lilacs, the songs of the birds, the beauty of all life, is to honor the Divine.
As for sin, the Wiccan Rede states, "If it harm none, do what you will". Responsibility to the other must come first. To act with hatred or arrogance to any part of Creation is to show disrespect to the Divine. The Law of the Three-Fold Return promises that whatever energy you send out will be returned three times to you. Any time I have acted with arrogance or cruelty towards anything else it has come back to me, if only in the knowledge that I had a chance to act kindly and did not.
Pablo, the concept of God that I get from your posts is so foreign to my experience as to be incomprehensible to me. My Lord and Lady are my loving parents; I was sent here to learn, not to burn.
March 26, 2007 4:45 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 16:45
Pablo,
You seek credible answers where there are none. Just as we seek credible answers about God where there are none.
March 26, 2007 4:09 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 16:09
Bob,
Can you give me proof of evolution from one kind to another that has been observed or measured? I asked this simple question when evolution was first brought up on this thread and no one has given one credible answer.
Pablo
March 26, 2007 3:57 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 15:57
BA'AL
Thanks for your reply.
I know that you do not "believe" there is a God. I'm saying that you intrinsically "know" there is a God because He has manifested Himself in creation and because without a relationship with Him we are incomplete. That is why every civilization throughout history, even those in the most isolated and remote areas of earth, have an innate concept of God that they revere or worship.
Just as we yearn for a relationship with our creator, so God yearns for a relationship with us. That's why He sent His Son to walk among us and to die for us so that we may be reconciled to Him and believe because of the words, deeds and resurection of Jesus Christ.
To deny Jesus' existence is a cop out. No conglomeration of fakers could construct such a person or ascribe to Him the sort of wisdom that after 2000 years continues to illuminate and define all of our frailties, hopes and aspirations.
March 26, 2007 3:53 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 15:53
Baal,
I cannot let you get away with making such a statement without support. There is no support for this assertion.
"...the fact that we are products of evolution by natural selection"
Pablo
March 26, 2007 3:50 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 15:50
Technicolordreamboat,
I have spent time with Wiccan believers from time to time and I have also read about Wicca. Maybe you can teach me more? If I am wrong please correct me. It would be foolish for me not to receive correction when I am wrong. I am not claiming that Wicca is solely pantheistic. It is also animistic and polytheistic.
Pablo
March 26, 2007 3:47 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 15:47
WILLEM,
Your anger is exploding through the screen. I pray you will find peace. Jesus was also angry with coveting money and hypocrisy. Are you then on the same side as Him or are you looking for an excuse to reject Him by pointing at the flaws of those who believe? Are you flawless? I think not, I think you need forgiveness just like we all do.
Pablo
March 26, 2007 3:41 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 15:41
Pablo,
How do you know, exactly, what Wicca is? How do you presume to know what Wiccan believes? Making a statement such as the one you made without knowlege of what you are talking about makes you look like a bigot, and I'm sure that wasn't your intent. I admire the ferocity in which you defend your beliefs, but you come off as offensive from time to time.
March 26, 2007 3:38 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 15:38
Believer,
Well said, it is so crystle clear that God exists.
Pablo
March 26, 2007 3:33 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 15:33
Oops, the last sentence in my last post was very badly written. I meant to say that the fact that we are products of evolution by natural selection does not give us the right to behave badly. We have culture too, and we should pay special care and consideration to other people and other creatures -- and we should enjoy our lives as much as we can within those constraints.
March 26, 2007 3:30 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 15:30
Dear Wiccan,
But what does Wicca do for the problem of sin? One thing about Wicca is that it is pantheistic and its adherents worship the creation. It fits right in with naturalism that states that nature is all there is. Satan is a master at packaging the same lie for different types of people. The problem with this is that it puts worms on an equal stand as humans. In that case watch your step for you may be treading on God.
The Egyptians worshipped frogs that is why one of the plagues God sent on them was frogs everywhere. There were so many frogs that an Egyptian could not take a step without treading on them. God was saying you want to worship frogs I will give you frogs. He gave them so many that they would step on them showing them the foolishness of worshipping the creation instead of the creator. That is what Wicca is, worship of the creation instead of the Creator.
Pablo
“Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen” (Romans 1:24-25).
March 26, 2007 3:30 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 15:30
Believer
I can honestly say that I do not believe there is a god.
4th Watch, that belief means that I do not have to tie myself into knots trying to explain how evil came into the world (and I don't have to suppose the existence of angels, fallen or otherwise, or talking snakes or magical gardens 6000 years ago -- or why if fallen angels have so much power, why it is the fault of Adam and Even that god allowed such a spirit to influence two people who were so naive).
Because I don't have to explain where evil came from, that does not mean that I have to like it, or that I want to see the world destroyed by people's actions, or that I do not think that people should act in an upright manner that is morally beyond some minimal evolutionary imperative.
March 26, 2007 3:26 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 15:26
Stating The Obvious,
I simply forgot to put my name in the box would you please forgive me?
Pablo
March 26, 2007 3:11 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 15:11
Ba'al
Your question as you noted is one for the ages.
Theologians responses range as far and wide as they dared to permit their minds to take them.
How can one possibly presume to know the full mind of God?
I can only comment truthfully on some fragments
that I have found to be the truth.
God recognizes and respects humans ability to choose how they will live or exist.\Gen.4:6-10/
Apparently this holds true for Angels also.
Proof being lucifer and the 1/3 deciding to war against God and His creation.
Thus we can truthfully say
satan displayed evil to humanity.
Man and Woman looked it over and accepted it into their lives,actually allowed evil to be tangible in this world.
Lets remember,God gave authority over the world to Man and Woman.It was their garden to allow evil to enter or not.
Norrie hope your comment was attended here also.
March 26, 2007 3:01 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 15:01
Great job on your posts Pablo!!
Everyone who posts on these threads, in their hearts, knows there is a God. Nothing else can possibly explain how "fearfully and wonderfully" we were made. Nothing else can adequately account for man's persistent sinful nature and nothing else can cure the universal longing for hope, love and purpose.
One day, dear Pablo, all of the people on this thread who deny Jesus' very existence will bend their knees and bow their heads at the very mention of His name; and they will rue the arrogance and anger that kept them from seeing the light of grace, which is so astonishingly clear, and freely given.
No one need go to Hell. All you have to do is ask to be saved. As Jesus himself said:
9"So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
10"For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.
Luke 11:9-10
March 26, 2007 2:30 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 14:30
OH JESUS PLEEZE ALL THAT CUMMING IS A BUNCH OF BS!! I REFUSE TO CUM BACK I DONT LIKE IT DOWN THERE!
ITS ALL A SCAM RUN BY MONEYGRABBING HOMOPHOBIC PREACHERS , SHE JESUS/GOD IS NEVER CUMMING BACK BECAUSE SHE DOESNT EXIST ITS A FARCE DEAR READERS DONT LET THEM SELL YOU ALL THIS HOKUS POKUS .RELIGION IS THE PROBELM AND NOT THE ANSWER.
March 26, 2007 2:26 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 14:26
It seems to me Christians are consumed with the end of the world, and prophesies. I think this author figured it out, 'The Sudanese child alrerady sees the end of the world.'
Christians worrying about the end of the world and prophesies, should concern themselves with those people still here and working for their happiness instead of worrying about the end of the world.
Just as Jeff Salz said, "To live a life in service of others is truly a noble life.'
The reality is suffering is here now, and those that die, the world has come to an end for them, except we did not see them perish or suffer, like the little African child with the Vulture waiting for her to die so the Vulture could survive. The author killed themselves due to the understanding of this childs future.
Like the rapper says, "Hell is a place called home!"
The world will not end unless we all kill each other in the process, like a nuclear winter. Common Sense. This has nothing to do with religion, but respecting people instead, I believe.
March 26, 2007 12:41 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 12:41
Ok.........Pablo.....why post as yourself and as Anonymous, especially if after you post as Anonymous, you sign your name? What the???
March 26, 2007 11:21 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 11:21
Pablo,
I wasn't trying to prove anything. Just exposing your cherry picking.
March 26, 2007 11:15 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 11:15
Pablo-
It seems my understanding (or misunderstanding) of the Christian theology led me to be disrespectful, and that was wrong of me. I apologize.
I am not a god, but I am part of the Divine's creation, and, as such, the Divine is part of me. The Lord and Lady are my loving parents, and They hold me safe in their arms. May your understanding of the Divine bring you the joy and comfort that my understanding has brought me. Blessed Be.
March 26, 2007 10:31 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 10:31
What proof Bob?
March 26, 2007 10:17 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 10:17
BobD,
This makes the point even stronger because even when he knew that evolution was not fact he asserted evolution as a fact and not a fact and thus contradicted himself. People will believe anything to escape accountability to God.
Pablo
March 26, 2007 10:16 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 10:16
Norrie,
Being rejected by His own creation and being nailed on a cross is not enough for you.
"Greater love has no one than this, that someone lays down his life for his friends" (John 15:13).
A young teenage girl was embarrassed of her mother because her mother had grotesque scars on her face and body. One day when a friend was over the mother overheard her daughter talking to her friend and complaining about the embarrassment her mother causes her when she comes around her in public. Later after the teenager's friend left her mother sat her down to talk. She said when you were a baby our house caught on fire. The firemen came and got everyone out of the house except you. When I realize that you were not safe I ran back into the house even though the firemen shouted to me to stop. I ran to your crib and wrapped you in a blanket and ran out of the house with my dress on fire. Then she said, “See these scars on my face and my body these scars were for you. I never told you that the reason I was burned in a fire was to save you because I did not want you to live in quilt.” After that, the girl knew the love of her mother in a new way. The scars no longer bothered her. In fact when she saw them they reminded her of her mother's love for her.
It would be the absolute height of contempt and selfishness if the girl would have questioned her mother's love. It is the absolute height of arrogance, selfishness, and contempt to question the love of Jesus Christ. Yes He will cast you into hell unless you repent. It will be what you deserve but it does not have to be that way. I am not any better then you yet I have experienced God's forgiveness. The scars of Christ show me how much He loved me. His scars were for you. I am not ashamed of Him. I love Him because He first loved me.
Pablo
March 26, 2007 10:10 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 10:10
Pablo,
"However, the editors of The Revised Quote Book neglect to tell their readers that in the same book by Grasse from which they have quoted, Grasse also stated in the most unequivocal terms: "Zoologists and botanists are nearly unanimous in considering evolution as a fact and not a hypothesis. I agree with this position and base it primarily on documents provided by paleontology, i.e., the history of the living world ... [Also,] Embryogenesis provides valuable data [concerning evolutionary relationships] ... Chemistry, through its analytical data, directs biologists and provides guidance in their search for affinities between groups of animals or plants, and ... plays an important part in the approach to genuine evolution." (Pierre P. Grasse, Evolution of Living Organisms, Academic Press, New York, 1977, pp. 3,4,5,7)"
March 26, 2007 9:51 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 09:51
Norrie,
Man does not have more compassion than God. Be careful with your mocking. He is completely just and completely good. We may not understand that in our fallen nature but we need to trust that God is good. Goodness is one of His attributes or else He is not God. Humankind continually tries to make God less then He is because most people want to justify their ungodliness. Maybe you have too high of an opinion of yourself. Do you ever lie? Do you ever lose your temper when you should not? Do you ever fail to help those in need when you have the ability to do so? God sees all the hidden thoughts, intentions, and motives. He is not fooled by any facade. That is why it is best to come out of denial and admit your sin problem. God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.
Pablo
March 26, 2007 9:39 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 09:39
4th Watch,
"Loving parents will do whatever it takes to get their creation back."
Like burning and tormenting their child forever?
Parents could teach God a lesson about dealing humanely with children.