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Huh?

HI, I'M ANGELGIL, WHAT I CALL MYSELF, BECAUSE OF BEING "BLESSED OF GOD", AS FROM "NDES", VISIONS, DREAMS, HOLY EXPERIENCES. BECAUSE OF MY INTERACTIONS WITH HOLYINESS, I CAN BEHOLD THE PAST, PRESENT, "PROJECTED FUTURE", AND "CHANGE SOME THINGS", "IN ADVANCE", OF "THE ACTUAL OCCURANCES". NOW, ABOUT THAT, GARDEN OF EDEN THANG (WHICH BYE THE WAY, WAS IN AMERICA, NEAR SPRING HILL MOSOURI). ADAM AND EVE WAS MARRIED BY GOD (I AM, JEHOVAH, JESUS CHRIST)FOREVER! THEY WERE COMMISSIONED TO "MULTIPLY AND REPLENISH THE EARTH". BUT, AS "INNOCENT IMORTALS" THEY DIDN'T KNOW HOW. BUT THE SECRET WAS IN THE "FRUIT OF GOOD AND EVIL", BUT IF THEY ATE IT, THEY WOULD SURELY DIE (SEPERATION FROM GOD AND IMMORTALLITY), WHICH SATAN ALSO, KNEW, AS FROM OTHERS WORLDS THAT HE TRIED TO SCFEW UP. HIS PLAN WAS TO GET JUST "ONE OF THEM" TO EAT THE "FRUIT OF THE TREE OF GOOD AND EVIL", THEN THAT "ONE PERSON" WOULD "GET KICKED OUT" OF THE GARDEN OF EVIL! ADAM TURNED SATAN DOWN, BUT EVE LIKE THE IDEA OF BEING "WISE AS THE GODS:, SO SHE ATE. WALLA, SHE BECAME WISE, AND MORTAL, AND NOW, SHE KNEW "HOW TO HAVE CHILDREN", WHICH KNOWLEDGE SHE SHARED WITH ADAM, WHO LOVED HER, SO HE ATE AND "BOTH WERE CAST OUT OF THE GARDEN". OOPSIE, SATAN WAS "FOILED AGAIN"! NOW, GOD SAID THAT IN THE "DAY"*(1) THAT THERY DID EAT THAT FRUIT, THEY WOULD SURLY DIE, AND THEY DID.
*(1) A DAY IN THE LORD IS "1,000 OF OUR YEARS", AS THE GOVERNING PLANET-KOLOB, OF THE UNIVERSES, NEIGH UNTO THE LORD'S "CELESTIAL KINGDOM")THE ONE THAT PAUL, OF THE NEW TESTIMENT, WAS "CAUGHT UP INTO", "THE 3RD. KINGDOM OF GOD".) WAS SO HUGH, THAT "ONE DAY OF ROTATION", WAS "1,000 OF OUR EARTH YEARS". FIRST THEIR "TRANSGRESSION" WAS "NOT A SIN",AS "SEX IS NOT SIN". IS IS ACT GOD CREATED SO THAT WE MORTALS COULD REPLICATE, TO BECOME AS HE IS, "PERFECT". SURE MOTALITY IS HARD, BUT GOD DID NOT SAY OUR LIVES WOULD BE EASY, BUT IT WOULD "BE WORTH IT" FOR TO BECOME "PERFECT" LIKE GOD, MEANING WHAT GOD, THE FATHER OF OUR SPIRITS, IS NOW, WE WILL BECOME, AS WHAT WE ARE NOW, AS HE ONCE WAS PART MORTAL, PART GOD. (OUR SPIRIT IS FROM GOD, OUR BODY CAME FROM ADAM AND EVE, PARTS GOD'S). SATAN, WHO WAS KICKED OUT OF "HEAVEN"(KOLOB'S GRAND COUNCIL, WHERE 1/3 OF HEAVEN, 3/2 RDS. OF MALES
WERE KICKED OUT, FOR SIMPLY "REJECTING GOD'S PLAN OF "FREE AGENCY"). ALL GOD'S WOMEN SPIRITS, REMAINED, MAKING IT 3-1, FEMALES OVER MALES. ALL SATAN'S GOT TO DO IS PERSUADE ALL THOSE NIEVE WOMEN IS THE "SCREW WITH MAN'S MIND, BODY AND SOUL", THEN THE WHOLE FAMILY OF GOD IS GONE! JUST THINK, PREMATERIAL SEX, PORN, IS CONTROLLED BY MEN OVER WOMEN, WHO IN TURN CONTROL MEN DOWN UNTO HELL! SO WHAT WE NEED TO DO, FOR TO RETURN TO GOD "PERFECT", IS TO LEARN, AND OBEY GOD'S TRUE WAYS. SEE MY WEBSITE: ANGELGILS-INSTANT-HEALINGS.COM, FOR A GREAT START, THEN EMAIL ME YOUR RESULTS,OK? THANKS,PAL.GILSIMS2@MSN.COM . AMEN. ANGELGIL.

Meg,
Catholicism (the religion, and the people that knowingly continue in its deception, not the innocent who are mislead by it) is rebuked heavily by God. It is full of blasphemy and things that clearly go against what the Bible teaches us. So the fact that you started to question it is a good sign, one that you should have followed up on by reading the Bible yourself. In so doing you’d spot the obvious blasphemies the Catholic Church has set up.

About confession: You are right. The only one that can give you forgiveness for your sins is God. Not a preacher. There’s one of the blasphemies. This is what the Bible says, the Word of God:

Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

The Bible even tells you to do so in private, not to someone else.

You said, “How could I possibly believe in a God who would create humankind, give us a brain to think and reason with, then send us to a lake of fire because we don't believe one particular way?”

How many ways are there to believe? Do you believe you get there by good works? Or do you believe, as the Bible points out, that you are a sinner, Jesus bore the punishment for your sins, and to accept that gift you need only accept it? It’s laid out clearly in the Bible:

Romans 10:9-10 “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”

Romans 10:13 “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
John 1:12 “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.”

Can’t get any clearer than that. It’s not by our own works that we get saved. It’s not by being a good person (our works) that we get saved. It’s by placing your trust in Jesus Christ. How many ways do you need to believe? Other ‘ways’ are right there alongside the Catholic church: man-made rules meant to deceive and keep people separate from God’s grace, from Jesus Christ’s most amazing gift.

You said, “If we're all saved, how come only a certain number are supposed to be raptured? What happens to the Christians beyond that number?”

Being called a Christian does not mean you are what the title implies. If you did what the Bible said, *and meant it sincerely*, then you are saved, no matter what title you give yourself. If you didn’t mean it, or never did it, who cares if you call yourself a Christian or not? You’re not saved. It’s not titles that save, it’s what’s in the heart, and whether we’ve *sincerely* done what the Bible tells us that will save us. God knows our hearts, and God knows who’s truly saved. And believe me, not all ‘Christians’ are saved. It’s why I don’t really even care for the word. That title means nothing. What means everything is what’s truly in your heart, and if you sincerely are placing your trust in the Lord to save you after you’ve sincerely admitted you are a sinner, that you need to be saved, and called on the Lord to save you.

And again, once you are saved, you cannot lose that salvation. You will continue to sin in different ways. But you continue to pray, repent again from your sins (privately to God, not to a person). If you were sincere about being saved, you will go through some serious changes. You can almost always tell who’s sincere because you begin to see serious changes in their life. I saw amazing changes in my own life – habits that were instantly stopped. I couldn’t even believe it myself. If you don’t change at all, and keep doing what you were doing, chances are you really weren’t sincere to begin with, hence never were saved.

You said, “If a person is good and helpful to others and lawful and does their best in this world but is not Christain/Born Again does that mean they won't go to "heaven," but a convicted criminal who repents at the eleventh hour and accepts Jesus into their life WILL go to heaven? Why would God do that to the person who was truly "Christ-like" their whole life?”

The moment a person *sincerely* calls on Jesus to save him, as the Bible outlined, yes he is saved. Sincerely is the key word here. Was that person sincere? They can say they are all they want. We can guess if they were sincere, but we won’t know.. but GOD WILL KNOW. He can read our minds and hearts. He will know. If that person was sincere, they will now go through incredible transformations from the inside-out.

And again, we get to heave not by our own works, but by trusting in Jesus Christ. It’s great that a person is good and helpful. But they are still a sinner in one way or another. And thus yes, they must confess this before God (not before man), and call out on Jesus to save them from their sins. Why wouldn’t they want to? Pride? You want to risk eternal damnation over pride?

You said, “And, I agree, quoting the Bible to prove your point accomplishes nothing when the person you're quoting it to doesn't believe it is the Word of God, but more a moral compass for the times in which it was written.”

A moral compass? How would *anyone* *ever* be saved if all we have is a moral compass that’s several thousand years out of date, and not one person on the planet not really knowing what God’s plan is, and thousands of people that are just left to guess?! What about all those passages that talk about God Himself? About Jesus being the Son of God? Is that just fabricated as well?!

God created the heavens and the earth. He’s given us his Word in the Bible. It’s survived for thousands of years. Read more out of the Bible, go to a Bible-preaching place of worship, and allow yourself more time to get to know the Bible before you just flat out reject it as having anything to do with being the Word of God.

Why do you think most Catholic masses avoid preaching messages in the middle of mass about what the Bible tells us and what the passages mean? I can tell you one reason: so that more people continue to come to their preachers to confess their sins, and be made to feel guilty about it.

You said, “I'm a very happy person with a strong faith that doesn't happen to be Christianity. I don't fear what will come after I die because of my beliefs, and the love and joy they bring into my life.”

Perhaps consider getting over the word “Christianity” and start looking more towards the Bible. It answers every question you brought up here. It matches some of the very things you yourself have observed. I’m surprised you have faith but think the Bible is not the Word of God.

It’s great that you’re happy. It would be a shame if you relied on your finite happiness here to blind you to what you’re setting yourself up for on where you’d spend eternity. Am I trying to scare you? Let me answer that with this: CAN YOU AFFORD TO BE WRONG? I seriously encourage you to read the Bible, and seek out a place of worship (notice I didn’t even say Baptist or Christian) that **preaches the word of God**.

You said, “So, Kaman, thanks for the breath of fresh air, and the logic and sanity of your comments!”

Part of the problem is people can’t seem to comprehend that God’s logic is very different from our own. According to our logic, we should get mad and even at people that have wronged us. According to God’s logic,

Luke 6:29 “And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.”

God’s logic is very different from our own. There are many more examples of this in the Bible. To some it seems insane. It’s yet more ways people continue to rationalize, keeping themselves separate from God, and one step closer to an eternity separate from God in the lake of fire.

I will pray that you continue to figure things out for yourself and read the Bible.

Praise the Lord!

It can seem like circular logic to rely on the Bible that God exists, but the same logic is used on everything you say is true.

We’re told Ben Franklin invented the light bulb. Well who said? Well we read it in a book. Who told the Author? He read it in another book. Well who told that second author? Well he heard it from his professor. Well who told that professor? Well he read it in a different book. And the list goes on. At some point you just take faith that it’s actually fact. Because the fact is, you don’t know for sure, but you just choose to believe it’s a fact. And it was passed down from when it happened to us by “word of mouth” or recorded word. Welcome to the Bible. The inspired Word of God. So the circular logic approach applies to everything we know today. If we lived our life by that principle, it would be a wonder we could believe any facts were are brought up on for our history. So please don’t bother trying to use that argument to just instantly discredit the Bible, because in doing so you discredit a huge percentage of what you claim you know as fact right now.

But even so it goes beyond the Bible. The Bible has it survived for thousands and thousands of years. Pretty amazing if it’s completely false. How do you explain something so completely wrong surviving for that long?

What about the miraculous changes in people’s lives? The creation of the world and the universe? The perfection that exists around you all the time in nature? The miracle of life? The miracles that have happened throughout history? Do we honestly believe we magically appeared out of nowhere after some big bang, and that we’re a meaningless descendant of pond-scum and monkeys (that also magically appeared out of nowhere to live on a planet that is perfectly set up to sustain life)? This takes even more faith to believe in than that God exists and is our creator. And it has nowhere near the same amount of proof that we have all around us that God does in fact exist.

Kaman >> “And to answer RR, hell yeah, Christianity is all about guilt, rules, and never being good enough. That is what I got out of it growing up. Going to the altar to "pray through" sobbing the whole time, because the preacher I've disappointed God and I am going to hell along with the slow music to enhance the emotions.”

If this was your experience of following the Word of God in the Bible, then your experience was by that of men, not of following God. Once you are saved, you never lose your salvation. It sounds like you were never saved. Once you’re saved, you don’t go to hell for sinning again. God wants you to repent privately in prayer of course, and commit to try to *not* continue in the exact same sin, and to ask for His help in doing so. So reading what you wrote, it sounds like you were part of a religion, not part of what the Bible teaches.

“But the churches rules and unreachable goals of sactified life is a recipie for never being good enough and never-ending guilt. “

You said it yourself. The “church”’s rules. You need to figure out what it means to put your trust in Jesus Christ, and live that way. How do you figure that out? Read the Bible. The Bible tells you that, not a church. Sounds like the church you picked is a “religion” Jesus himself would rebuke. The Bible teaches us that we cannot attain this righteousness on our own – that we need to lean on Jesus Christ for His help with this.

“ I'm through with that garbage. I dont' want anypart of a God that treats his creations that way and then sends them to hell. I don't believe he/it/the force/whatever is like that. “

If you don’t believe God is like that, maybe you’re right and it was the church you were a part of that was misleading? Read the Bible, and find a church that preaches the Word of God, not their own version of driving guilt into you as you describe. That’s not what our church is like at all. Our church is based on truth: what’s in the Bible that we could all read about whether we were at church or not. They don’t add rules to it. They don’t take things away. They just preach the truth, and it’s been available to us all the time.

”But Christians have to live up to these types of unrealistic standards, fail, and sob at the altar to ask for forgiveness every week.”

You live up to these standards with the help of God. And that’s a mistake many people make. It says in the Bible we cannot do that ourselves. We need God’s help to do that, and he wants us to ask for that help. But many people try to do it themselves, without praying to God often at all, and then wonder why they fail.

“ And yes, it is incredibly arrogant to assume Christianity is the ONLY way to God, and the rest of the world be damned. “

There is only one way to God. Don’t try to blind yourself by ascribing a name to it, and then acting like that method is *not* the only way. If you read the Bible, you’d know exactly what that way is. Here, I’ll quote it for you.

How you get to heaven (also known as: how save yourself from judgment of being a sinner):

[1] Admit you are a sinner
Romans 3:10 “There is none righteous, no not one.”
Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.”

[2] Believe that Jesus Christ bore the punishment for your sin on the cross and rose from the dead.
Romans 10:9-10 “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”

[3] Call on the Lord to save you.
Romans 10:13 “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
John 1:12 “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.”

If you do this, and mean it sincerely, then you are now saved.

Many people are fooled into thinking there are other ways to get into heaven. By just being good. By works of their own. They couldn’t be more wrong. It is by the grace of God that you can get into heaven, and no other way. It’s not me saying it. It’s not a church. It’s not a religion. It’s the BIBLE.

Please don’t allow yourself, all in the sake of your personal comfort, to avoid the truth that is in the Bible. I will pray for you!

Read the Bible, friends.
Praise the Lord!

RE: "Judge not...."."Thou shalt not judge.." and
etc.
Thorough Bible Study based on the entirety of the Bible, not just picking a verse here or there in an attempt to justify an opinion, will show that there are two (2) types of judgement discussed therein as follow:
1. JUDGMENT OF DISCERNMENT where we as Christians recognize that a person professing to be christian is not living some part of his/her life as Christ taught. As a Christian I should approach that person in a kind way to point out that their behavior isn't "Christ-like." Hopefully they will consider it as an act of "love" and give serious thought to correcting it through Christ.
2. JUDGEMENT OF CONDEMNATION where Christ, and Christ alone, determines the sin (offense) and the punishment that will be meted out.
Many professing Christians use the "Thou shalt not judge..." as an escape to avoid the "discernment" part of a Christian's responsibility.
Your thoughts, please.

Kaman-
I grew up in a loving home and love my parents also, and went to 12 years of Catholic school. Catholicism is good at guilt, too. Although we didn't "pray at the altar" we had "confession." Then I began to question why someone had to hear my confession, why couldn't I just talk to God myself and tell him how sorry I was? That was in grade school, and the questions didn't stop, nor were they ever answered in a way that made sense in all the years since. How could I possibly believe in a God who would create humankind, give us a brain to think and reason with, then send us to a lake of fire because we don't believe one particular way? Are all the billions of people on Earth supposed to become Christian? Missionaries go out to convert others to save them. If we're all saved, how come only a certain number are supposed to be raptured? What happens to the Christians beyond that number? If a person is good and helpful to others and lawful and does their best in this world but is not Christain/Born Again, does that mean they won't go to "heaven," but a convicted criminal who repents at the eleventh hour and accepts Jesus into their life WILL go to heaven? Why would God do that to the person who was truly "Christ-like" their whole life? And, I agree, quoting the Bible to prove your point accomplishes nothing when the person you're quoting it to doesn't believe it is the Word of God, but more a moral compass for the times in which it was written. And no, before anyone mentions it, I'm not morally bankrupt and awash in a sea of whatever - I'm a very happy person with a strong faith that doesn't happen to be Christianity. I don't fear what will come after I die because of my beliefs, and the love and joy they bring into my life.

So, Kaman, thanks for the breath of fresh air, and the logic and sanity of your comments!

I've a law degree from Harvard, because I wrote in on my resume. Resume MUST be true because I said it was. What I say MUST true because my resume says so.

<<<and betrays again, the same bankrupt and morally insufficient reasoning of the skeptic.<<<

So Maddog must think my law degree is valid. My statement above (declaration of law degree) is cleary and obviously flawed. Why? Because it is a circular argument. What Maddog is saying is by discounting my law degree statement by pointing out that it's the circular fallacy, is "bankrupt and morally insufficient reasoning of the skeptic".

Sir, the logical fallacy called "circular reasoning" is accepted by virtually everyone in the world as an ineffective means of arguing a point. It isn't not some bankrupt and morally insufficient reasoning. You know where I learned about fallacies of logic? In a Principles of Logic course, at a Christian college, by a Christian professor, who was a Rev., who had a doctorate of divinity, who wrote textbooks about Christianity and for the his denomination, and was very highly respected. HE taught me that circular reasoning (along with other fallacies like ad hominem, etc) is flawed logic. Perhaps, my prof (and everyone else in the world except MadDog) is bankrupt and morally insufficient for explaining the pitfalls of circular reasoning.

I can see why he wants to keep the "simple things" off the table.

<<<The issue IS whether the Scriptures say what they say.<<<

I don't think anyone here doesn't think when you quote a scripture, that you didn't quote it accurately. If you told me that John 3:16 said "For God so loved the world...", I would believe you. I think that the Bible actually said that verse. But I do not believe it is true just because the Bible has those words in it.

And to answer RR, hell yeah, Christianity is all about guilt, rules, and never being good enough. That is what I got out of it growing up. Going to the altar to "pray through" sobbing the whole time, because the preacher I've disappointed God and I am going to hell along with the slow music to enhance the emotions. So I go home feeling good for a few days and then the word "sh" "it" pops into my head. Now I am a sinner again. Over about a month I do "un-Christian" things like jealousy, or think something bad about someone. Or I try to shortcut doing my chores. Then after a month, the preacher preaches another "Disappointed God" sermon again, and I start crying and go to the altar, because I wasn't good enough, and had backslidden. And the cycle continues. Always looking over my shoulder (figuratively) because something bad popped into my head or I didn't read my bible, or pray for lunch, or tithe my allowance or close my eyes during prayer.

That is what Christianity is to me and a lot of people. And yes, I resent this brainwashing/conditioning and Christianity's "mental abuse" I grew up with. I still deal with this today. I love my parents, and grew up in a loving home. But the churches rules and unreachable goals of sactified life is a recipie for never being good enough and never-ending guilt.

I'm through with that garbage. I dont' want anypart of a God that treats his creations that way and then sends them to hell. I don't believe he/it/the force/whatever is like that.

BTW, I do not claim to be a non-zealot, non-judgemental or whatever. I would not back myself into a corner like that. But Christians have to live up to these types of unrealistic standards, fail, and sob at the altar to ask for forgiveness every week.

And yes, it is incredibly arrogant to assume Christianity is the ONLY way to God, and the rest of the world be damned.

After glimpsing over the first page of the website, it became clear this guy “Bill” is using warped logic, passing it off as truth.

“I'm probably not 100% accurate on dates but doubt I'm any farther away than the experts who guess a lot. I don't hold a PhD from Harvard in Archaeology or ancient studies. I’m sure you understand.”

There are a bunch of experts that give us dates. Bill decides on dates of his own, admit he’s probably not accurate, but just figures he’s “probably better than all those other experts, as I claim they just guessed”.

So everyone’s supposed to just believe Bill that all those experts guessed. And now Bill’s guesses are even better than all those experts, according to Bill of course, and so we should believe Bill’s guesses instead?! This website is obvious a joke.

The site go on to say:
“The above graph represents my best guess about when the original stories of the Bible first appeared in writing.”

Your best guess? So now Bill even *admits* he’s guessing. Probably why he assumes all experts must just guess as well, since Bill clearly thinks guessing makes one an expert, and Bill thinks spending a few years learning about computers makes him a theological expert. It’s becoming clear what’s really going on here, and proving *anything* based on guesses and heresy is not it.

Here’s the first thing you refuse to accept: these writings are the inspired Words of God. God pretty much did the writing. Or are you going to give us more proof as to why no one was alive in the future to tell us the future’s “history” very accurately? i.e., the book of Revelation. That sounds even harder to do than writing about what happened so far in the past. It’s the inspired Word of God that has been preserved through the ages. Or do you think to a Holy God that created the universe that preserving his Word is too hard for Him to do?!

One last look at Bill’s logic: He postulates:

“What if they could not read it very well?”

.. then goes on to act like it is suddenly a fact:

“So what we have in the Bible is the same story told over and over
again by people who could barely read whatever writing they had”

So suddenly Bill’s “what if” has become a fact in the span of 10 seconds?! You almost have the laugh at the humor of it all.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
- Romans 1:22-23

It’s obvious Bill is using anything but logic. At this point I stopped reading. It’s clear there’s no logic here, and just a bunch of opinions thrown down as facts to make a weak attempt discredit what is clearly making Bill and people like Bill feel more than a little uncomfortable: that you are a sinner in the eyes of God. That your soul is in jeopardy.

People at the time had all the proof they needed. Jesus healed the sick. People were raised from the dead. Right in front of their eyes. It was not enough for them. They kept asking for more proof. It was NEVER ENOUGH. And anything anyone on this planet today could say won’t be enough for Bill or you either. After all, if being witness to someone being raised from the dead, or being given sight after a lifetime of blindness is amazingly not enough for some people, it’s obvious mere words are not going to be enough to those same people; to you. Why? Because those types of people are more interested in being able to continue in their sin-filled lifestyle than in the truth. The truth was right in front of the Pharisees, and they rejected it time and time again. They liked their stature. They liked their power. So they were blind to accept the truth. And we’re not talking just rejection of words – we’re talking miracles right in front of their eyes. It was the Pharisees that were blind.

Jesus was well aware of people like that, and says it all:

But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
- Matthew 15:13-14

Only a person blinded with the need to not believe in God, to not be made aware of the sinners they really are, would possibly believe such a poorly crafted argument against the Bible. What’s sad is that Bill clearly believes what he writes. What’s sadder is the few people that might be lulled in by the foolish logic Bill proposes.

I can only imagine how amazing to Jesus it must have been when he saw the Pharisees demanding still more proof of who He really was even after he had performed so many miracles right in front of their eyes. It does become clear that mere words are not going to be enough for such lost people.

Read the Bible, friends!
Praise the Lord!

Do you seriously think I can't? Really, I must be one of those dopey evangelicals who believe in a hoax or a pack of lies. I love language like that. Proves a general proposition I maintain but I'm always hoping a skeptic will surprise me one day.

BGone, I'd hope one day we could work through your enmity and hopelessness but if I write at this point, I merely clutch at the wind. It serves no purpose. From your site, I see (from your own testimony) your heart is fixed against God. You're conscience is seared and burnt shut.

I know you think me a fool. I'm more than ready to receive your condemnation: what more could you really do but condemn? But I won't play into a ploy you have (the silly straw-man game) where you provoke me into simple, ordinary monosyllables to explain a profound truth of the Scriptures you have no interest in believing in or receiving.

I fear your "knowledge and reason" are those things at the end of your fingertips. You know what you THINK you know and your epistemology is simply unlike mine. Why should I help you out in a course of study you wouldn't possibly accept? I don't imagine a skeptic as being "unreasonable" or "stupid." You do of me, however, and while I might take advantage of another forum (where this kind of discourse is INVITED) to elaborate on points, this PARTICULAR place is probably not prudent. Have we not heard from Ms. Susan Brooks Thistlethwait here? What might she have to say, I wonder.

Hey MADDOG: Time to upgrade your knowledge. http://www.hoax-buster.org fills in the tiny missing points in your Christian education.

Are Christians ignorant? How come the virgin Mary isn't God? Ever see a critter not mothered by it's own kind? The list of ignorance is far too long for a blog. We can cover them one at a time. Explain the mother of God not being God and we'll take if from there.

Now I'M tiring. You didn't listen closely, Kaman. Your points don't anger me nor confuse me. They TIRE me. I liked your "Bob" and "Alice" convo. It's as old as Moses, I think, and betrays again, the same bankrupt and morally insufficient reasoning of the skeptic. Kaman, kind sir, this isn't the first time I've danced with your generation. Why provoke me?

I like you folk. I really do. You're interesting to some degree but after a certain point—the point where you keep banging the same drum that the Christian is somehow intolerant, uncaring, uneducated, and somehow failing to graduate from a degree-granting institution—I start to feel dingy and gray. In the arena of free ideas (and I reference only THIS area), watching you reach conclusions is like watching a train wreck. While I seem to be arrogant and judgmental to you, it's clear from my own testimony I judge no person. I don't even claim a special "knowledge" or even a fancified seminary degree.

But I know for certain your circular logic argument is flat wrong. The issue IS whether the Scriptures say what they say. It's NOT whether the Scriptures are adequate enough for your speciously supported rule of measurement. You've been left to make up your mind on whether they can be measured as valid (arrogance) and good luck with that. But to suggest the Scriptures are the ONLY evidence that "prove" the validity of its claims is to work that same, tired Bob and Alice act on me. RR is going to put you to bed on this one. Already has, I think though I didn't peek hard at it. I will when I'm less tired although I don't think I could be any more bored. Didn't I ask politely to keep the simple things off the table? Thanks for the dance, though. I mean that.

Kaman:
As you yourself pointed out, there’s more than just the Bible to point to God’s existence.

“For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse” - Romans 1:20

And if the Bible is so completely wrong, why has it survived for thousands of years? How can you explain the miraculous changes in people’s lives? The creation of the world and the universe? The perfection that exists around you all the time in nature? The miracle of life? The miracles that have happened throughout history? Do you honestly believe you magically appeared out of nowhere after some big bang, and that you’re a meaningless descendant of pond-scum and monkeys (that also magically appeared out of nowhere to live on a planet that is perfectly set up to sustain life)? This takes even more faith to believe in than that God exists and is our creator. And it has nowhere near the same amount of proof that we have all around us that God does in fact exist.

And here’s what you did:

MADDOG: >>> The creation is flawed.>>>
KAMAN>>> I’m starting to get the message.

Arrogance.

RR: >>> there is none good but one.>>>
KAMAN>>> I’m really starting to feel like a pile of poop.

Your take on it does not equate everyone else’s take on it.

RR: >>> There is none righteous, no, not one.>>>
KAMAN >>> The toxic pollution that is called “humans” shouldn’t exist. We are the most worthless pieces of compost in the universe. I think I need to kill myself and rid the world of my cancerous scourge of existence. Agent Smith must have been a Christian.

Arrogance and stereotyping.

STAN: >>> The word of God must be true as it came from the minds of the men who believe in the self-created God.>>>
KAMAN >>> Irrational.

Arrogance.

STAN: >>> There are so many stupid people in the world that don’t understand sex … Missionary style is the only acceptable way.>>>
KAMAN >>> Irrational, stupid and arrogant at the same time.

More arrogance.

See how easy and yet pointless that is? It doesn’t make a person’s points any less valid. You seem to want us to believe you are as arrogant as you proclaim other’s to be. It gets you nowhere. Let’s be bigger than that and disagree without resorting to such hateful methods to try debasing someone’s beliefs.

Oh, and
RR: >>> it seems Lucy is anything but Christian.>>>
KAMAN >>> Again, judgmental.

If you read what she wrote, I hardly think you’d come to the conclusion that she believes in God. Not judgmental, but rather a rational observation of a most likely truth based on the words that came out of her own mouth. And notice I said “seems”.

RR: >>> The real problem seems to be people wanting to hold onto sin and being able to do so, all in the name of enjoying themselves and not feeling guilty doing so.>>>
KAMAN >>>Giving up enjoying yourself and taking on a ton of guilt.

Clearly you don’t understand what it’s about. And guilt is not part of it. When you learn more from the Bible, you’d understand that. I’ve not felt much guilt since being saved. As a Christian, if you feel a ton of guilt you’re doing something wrong.

KAMAN >>> Let’s see if I want to join Christianity:
KAMAN >>> Judgmental
Yes, God will judge us in our sin. This is why we need the redemption of Jesus Christ. But once you have that redemption, you’ll be fine if you’re sincere about your desire to turn away from sin.

KAMAN >>> Arrogance
So you see a few people make, in your opinion, arrogant remarks, and now ascribe arrogance to the entire group? Stereotyping is a bad for a reason. And you seem to want us to believe you’re arrogant as well, so if that’s true, this would be a plus for you if it was true of Christians, as you’d like us to believe?

KAMAN >>> Being made to feel like manure
Sorry you feel this bad about it. Your reaction seems rather extreme.

KAMAN >>> Intolerant
You seem to want us to believe you’re no less intolerant, so perhaps for you this too would be a plus if it was true?

KAMAN >>> Irrational
Have you shown any rational reason why God doesn’t exist? Have you shown any rational reason why we should believe you are a descendant of pond-scum and monkeys?

KAMAN >>> Naïve
It’s fine that you don’t believe. But suppose you end up being wrong? Naïve is one word I suppose that might describe you when you find yourself shocked that you’re one day judged and cast into the lake of fire.

KAMAN >>> Inaccurate propaganda
See above.

KAMAN >>> Can’t question God
Sure you can. Question him all you want. I just pray that the question of your salvation is settled before it’s too late. After that, you can question him, and pray to him all you want as well. He encourages it.

KAMAN >>> No porn
Well, it’s not good that so many people are exploited, used and abused all in the name of people’s lust of the flesh. A.k.a., porn.

KAMAN >>> Constant surveillance by God
When you become a child of God, you’ll realize you really don’t have anything to hide.

KAMAN >>> No more fun
A seeming lack of understanding. I have quite a bit of fun every day!

KAMAN >>> Never Ending Guilt
What is this guilt you speak of? I haven’t felt much guilt since I was saved.

KAMAN >>> WHERE DO I SIGN UP?
See previous posts. I go into detail.

Thanks for posting!
Praise the Lord!

“If you believe me to be a sinner and my actions to be vile and depraved, that is all very well for you. However, as long as my actions are not doing any harm to anyone ..”

I’m sorry if you took offense to this. I was not speaking to you directly, and was just providing information from the Bible in response to another poster who offered inaccurate information about God and his gift of Salvation.

If I’m not mistaken, if we violate the commandments that God gave us we are pretty much harming others. I only point this out because this seems to be a quality even you admit has some importance. So we do agree on some things!

“.. (other than my own "soul"), you do not have the right to prevent me from committing them, or to force me to behave in a way YOU consider more appropriate.”

I’m not forcing you to do anything. How could I? I’m not anywhere near you. I’m merely providing information that’s in the Bible. I’m quoting the Bible. People around you will frown upon you when you take actions that hurt others, I’m sure, whether they are Christian or otherwise.

But if my post had enough of an impression on you that you felt you were in some way being prevented from doing something, perhaps your conscience is trying to tell you something? Perhaps God is trying to speak to you through the Holy Spirit? Something to consider as a possibility. While I’m unable to prevent you from doing anything, your conscience has far more sway in that category.

“If your God exists, than HE will judge me.”

This is true. I am and was in no way judging you (or anyone) based on what the Bible says. I was merely providing information from the Bible about God, and about His judgments. It is one of our tasks (Christians) to make known the Gospel. To spread His word so that all may at one time or another hear it and be potentially capable of making a choice concerning God. Those that have heard the gospel will be without excuse when faced with judgment by Him.

“That said. I am not a Christian, but I have no objection to the beliefs of my Christian friends and co-workers. Not everyone is out to "convert" me or shove their beliefs down my throat”

No one can convert you, save yourself and God. We can only make known the Word of God that is in the Bible. Saving you is out of any of our own hands.

You are doing no different than I: you are presenting your beliefs. Should I then get angry that you’re trying to “shove your beliefs down my throat”? Of course not.

“However, as long as there are aggressive zealots out there, and as long as they continue to try to push their agenda through legal and social channels .."

Aggressive zealots? You have your own opinion; you voice it quite strongly (which is fine). Does that make you a zealot? Of course not. Are we to now label everyone a zealot who presents their beliefs for all to see? Or is this just a convenient way to try discrediting a person when no valid arguments are available?

“.. there needs to be opposition to them.”

Why does there *need* to be? You seem quite capable of making your own decisions. Do you not think other people are just as capable? Your admitted need to present opposition to faith in Christ seems to be somewhat personal. After all, if you were truly fine with your sense of faith in Christ (or lack thereof), why take such personal offense to it? Why feel the *need* to make sure there’s opposition? So that no one else will get saved? Is your "religion" "dont believe in Jesus Christ or God"?

“Christianity may be true. It may not be true. But one thing is certainly true, and that is that when you place interpretation of God into the hands of men, the only agenda that is served is that of power. “

Many religions in the name of God have been created for exactly that reason. The Bible even warns of this. Do you think that is the *only* agenda of people who have knowledge of the Bible?

“You yourself may not see it that way; you may have an earnest and tender desire to "save" me.”

I think this answers the question. So you seem to realize that power is not the only agenda served when the Word of God is placed into the hands of men.

And actually, I’m not trying to save you. I can’t save you or anyone. Only you and God can do that through the Holy Spirit. I’m merely helping to make sure people are at least aware of the gospel. In the end, as you clearly realize, it’s up to you to accept or reject it. And I fully realize that is well out of my control. Doesn’t change the fact that I want to at least make sure as many people as possible are at least *aware* of the gospel.

“...and if you must argue with us, stop quoting the Bible to prove that the Bible is true. Nothing makes an atheist laugh harder than circular logic. “

I don’t quote the Bible to prove it’s true. I already believe it’s true, and quote it to give information about the gospel. Individuals will then accept or reject it. You’re right: the fact that I quote it doesn’t make it true. But that’s not the reason it gets quoted.

Thanks for posting!
Praise the Lord!

Well, I couldn’t resist.

MADDOG: >>>You may not like it but it's not "circular." A history book tells me Lincoln spoke at Gettysburg. I may not like the speech, even deny the man existed but it's useless to say the history book doesn't assert what it does.>>>

No? Not circular? I…can’t…hold back…anymore…must jump back in the fray. This is a meatball waiting to be hit out of the park. This is so simple; I don’t even know why I bother. Oh well. In for a penny…..

Corbie isn’t saying that the Bible doesn’t assert what it asserts…lol. The circular logic he is talking about is the logical fallacy that says the Scriptures are valid. Below is a perfect example that very clearly illustrates “circular logic”, ”begging the question”, “circular reasoning”, “petitio principii” or “vicious cycle”.

Alice: God created the world.
Bob: How do you know that?
Alice: Because it says so in the Bible.
Bob: How do you know that the Bible is correct?
Alice: Because the Bible is the word of God in written form.
Bob: How do you know that the Bible is the word of God?
Alice: Because it says so in the Bible.
Bob: How do you know that the Bible is correct?
Alice: Because the Bible is the word of God in written form.
Bob: How do you know that the Bible is the word of God?
Alice: Because it says so in the Bible.
Bob: How do you know that the Bible is correct?
Alice: Because the Bible is the word of God in written form.

THIS is the fallacy of circular reasoning Corbie is talking about. The conclusion also appears as the premise. (Excuse me, Corbie, for putting words in your mouth) If you can’t see that, then you are truly blind. Until the validity of the Bible is established (other than God says so), it is totally meaningless as a device to prove your point. And until the validity of God is established (other than the Bible says so), it is also totally meaningless as a device to prove your point. This “I am God, because I say I am God” argument is the most commonly used example to illustrate circular reasoning when logical fallacies are explained or taught.

I can assert that I have a law degree from Harvard University. Why? Because it is on my resume, which I wrote. Let’s say a potential employer is looking for a Chief Counsel for his corporation. As he is interviewing me, he doubts I am being honest about my education. He asks me what documentation I have to support my assertion. How silly would it sound if I were to point to the 11th line on the first page of the resume and say “See, it says so right here…’Law Degree – Harvard University’.” And if he says that he needs more proof than my resume and wants a copy of my transcripts, I tell him “Trust me. I wrote the resume myself. It is accurate. All you need is a little faith.” Until I prove my resume is valid with transcripts or other documentation, my resume has zero credibility and is rubbish to him. Maybe my resume is right and maybe it’s wrong. But I sure as hell ain’t getting the job unless I produce something from another source to substantiate my own claims, both verbal and written. It would be foolish for him risk such an important decision based solely on what I say or write, especially if there are questions as to the validity of my claims. Likewise, it is foolish for humans to risk such an important decision based solely on the Bible, which is supposedly the word of God.

Christians need to realize that as soon as they refer to the Bible, the game is over before getting up to the plate. As the recipient of many attempts by Christians to “show me the way”, believe me when I say that you will get tuned out immediately. That is why Corbie says it is laughable for you to think quoting Scripture is the trump card. To you it may be the ace of spades, but to your audience it is the joker card. Know your audience. It would be more effective (but not much) in convincing non-believers if you , appealed to “God reveals himself in nature”, or “I have personally seen God move in my life” type of arguments, instead of “John 1:1 says, ‘In the beginning was the word…” or “God revealed himself to Moses in the burning bush.”

CORBIE: >>> and if you must argue with us, stop quoting the Bible to prove that the Bible is true. Nothing makes an atheist laugh harder than circular logic.>>>

MADDOG: >>>You're laughing but no one else in the room is laughing with you.>>>

I’m laughing with Corbie, although I consider myself an agnostic (doesn’t know if God exists or not), rather than an atheist (believes/knows God doesn’t exist).

MADDOG: >>>MEN do not interpret God. God reveals HIMSELF.>>>

LUCY: >>>We Christians, who know what God thinks...>>>

From the comments gleaned from the Christian-minded responses, it looks like Lucy did some serious misinterpreting. (Presumably, Maddog intended “MEN” to mean women and men). “God told me tonite that there is a special place in hell for people who blasphemes Him… God talks to me everyday… We Christians know that God does not like their "kind"”

If mankind doesn’t interpret God, then why such the variations within Christianity itself on the nature of God? After all, if he reveals himself to mankind with no interpretation necessary, how could there be differences? Some folks must have perverted God’s revelation by trying to interpret God. So who is correct? Catholics? Protestants? Baptists? Methodists? There are just so many to choose from.

*************************

GREG: >>> At best Lucy is a Christian in name only>>>
Judgmental.

RR: >>> it seems Lucy is anything but Christian.>>>
Again, judgmental.

MADDOG: >>> You SHOULD be angry at "Christians" who deny this premise. They are rank pretenders.>>>
[sigh] Judgmental once more (anyone seeing a pattern here?)

MADDOG: >>>shows you're not understanding.>>>
Arrogance.

MADDOG: >>> Your premise … is flawed.>>>
Arrogance again.

SOLID NOX: >>> Does that make sense to you or do I need to break out the "black" board?>>>
Know-it-all. Definitely arrogant.

MADDOG: >>> Lord have mercy on His poor servant: an unlearned man…. I am not a novice. I have no patience for cheap quibbling. Make good points, please.>>>
Incredibly arrogant.

MADDOG: >>> The definition of "human" is not necessarily "sinner" except that our own pride, arrogance, and depravity has secured that tag FOR us.>>>
Now that’s uplifting.

MADDOG: >>> The creation is flawed.>>>
I’m starting to get the message.

MADDOG: >>> Mankind is enmity against God and there it is (Romans 8:7)>>>
This reinforcing rhetoric is pervasive.

RR: >>> there is none good but one.>>>
I’m really starting to feel like a pile of poop.

RR: >>> There is none righteous, no, not one.>>>
The toxic pollution that is called “humans” shouldn’t exist. We are the most worthless pieces of compost in the universe. I think I need to kill myself and rid the world of my cancerous scourge of existence. Agent Smith must have been a Christian.

MADDOG: >>> It is enough to assert Jesus who declared that "I am the way, the truth, and the life." There are no other ways to approach a Holy God except through THAT intercessor. HE said it. I repeat it. Sorry if I offend. I know there are a great many who would call me "intolerant.">>>
Intolerant.

SOLID NOX: >>> I am sorry, but this feminist dogma only serves to perpetuate divisions. I do not want to hear that crap … My God, you self-centered selfish white feminists could not see your hand in front of your faces if it had not been for so-called civil rights legislation that was diverted to equality between white men and white men. Get outta here with that!>>>
Very intolerant.

MADDOG: >>> Mormonism is a direct assault against the Scriptures as far as orthodox Christian soteriology goes.>>>
Sounds like Mormons are going to hell. Not very tolerant at all.

STAN: >>> The word of God must be true as it came from the minds of the men who believe in the self-created God.>>>
Irrational.

STAN: >>> There are so many stupid people in the world that don’t understand sex … Missionary style is the only acceptable way.>>>
Irrational, stupid and arrogant at the same time.

THOUGHTFUL: >>> Don't try to actually comprehend it because you'll hurt yourself.>>>
Don’t think. Just blindly follow.

BOB: >>> Keep up with the news and articles on the Internet and you'll find as time goes by archaeologist and historians keep finding more and more evidence that the Bible is accurate.>>>
Where’d he get this from, Jack Van Imp? I guess I’ll put this in the irrational section, but it is more inaccurate than irrational.

MADDOG: >>> Still, if God should so choose to condemn men who live in far off places, who is to place an accusation against Him? Who is so bold? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "why have you made me this way?!?">>>
Truly irrational and naïve. And to answer your question: If God condemns man based on where he was born, then I will be “bold” and place an accusation against him and ask “Why has God made us this way?”

THOUGHTFUL: >>> When one treats every object they come in contact with, animate or inanimate, sexual partner or bowl of ice cream, as God then every act is sacred. Every act becomes a prayer and an offering.>>>
Huh? This is just plain weird. But it is thoughtful, I’ll give you that.

TED: >>> That's hot. Doesn't sound like it's anti-sex to me.>>> [referring to Proverbs 5:18-19]
Trading Proverbs for porn? I’ll take porn. Ted needs to get out more if the Bible gets his rocks off.

RR: >>> God can see into the minds and hearts of these 5 billion people.>>>
That’s reassuring. Constant surveillance to catch you doing something wrong.

RR: >>> The real problem seems to be people wanting to hold onto sin and being able to do so, all in the name of enjoying themselves and not feeling guilty doing so.>>>
Giving up enjoying yourself and taking on a ton of guilt.

******
Let’s see if I want to join Christianity:

Judgmental
Arrogance
Being made to feel like manure
Intolerant
Irrational
Naïve
Inaccurate propaganda
Can’t question God
No porn
Constant surveillance by God
No more fun

And to top it all off…

Never Ending Guilt

WHERE DO I SIGN UP?

“Umm... RR? Appreciate the post. I think we sort of caught you in a mood, though :-) “

Actually I enjoyed the chance to clarify what I thought was a major misunderstanding. I thoroughly enjoyed how much clearer things became to me when I was talking about it. :-)

“I know you were on a roll this morning but it's my opinion the "Christ was murdered" line is an overstatement. According even to HUMAN logic and reasoning, this couldn't possibly be true. Could the Christ have died? Yes. Murdered? Nope. No one takes His life. He lays it down and has the power to take it up again. That was an important NT theoological point. Cheerfully review that one for me?”

No, you are exactly right. It was misleading when I said he was murdered. It was his choice to die (as I did say), so of course if it’s his choice he wasn’t technically ‘murdered’. It was completely voluntary by Jesus to die on the cross (for our sins). In fact, it was pre-ordained way before he was ever born that he would do so. So yes, my use of the term “murdered” was misleading. Thank you for pointing that out.

“Also I'm a little confused on the issue of "He’s offering you a way to avoid this" line of reasoning. It just seems thoroughly inconsistent with the idea of redemption. Either God saves men or He does not. I'm pretty sure He's not wringing His hands up in heaven worrying about the "choices" the dead will make (yet even this argument is inferred). They will always make one choice and one choice only: to remain dead. There IS no other choice. “

Not sure I completely follow you (and I’m no expert). Free will seems to be a part of that equation: when offered the chance, we must choose to take it. Admit we are sinners; Repent from our sins; Believe that Jesus Christ bore the punishment for our sins on the cross and rose from the dead; and call on the Lord to save us.

Are you talking about people that weren’t saved, but have already died (here on Earth)? Are those the people whose only choice is to remain dead? Not sure I followed you on that.

God saves men who are willing to admit they are sinners, believe that Jesus was the son of God, and that he died so that our sins might be forgiven, and that we call on Him to save us. For those people who have already died, their eternal fate has unfortunately already been sealed. Hopefully they were already saved. So not sure if I understood your question.

Praise the Lord!

Hey Corbie.

Your premise that sin involves only yourself is flawed. Is not a nation "damaged" by the unwise and unholy actions of its leader? If it is sin to ignore the plight of the sick and starving and a national leader does so, isn't this just a sin of omission? Hardly, for even though the leader does "nothing" (as you suggest), there are ramifications. I cannot imagine a sin that does not carry with it stain of a communal sense. Yet, leave it to man to assume he is an island. It smacks of arrogance but I'll leave it at that.

Force you to behave in a way I consider more appropriate? How would this be done? Sin comes from the inner part of man and even if I might be able to coerce you into OUTWARD piety, the ugly truth is: you won't be turned. Cannot. Your sin keeps you from it. You SHOULD be angry at "Christians" who deny this premise. They are rank pretenders.

I'll hear you out on the issue of the "Christian Agenda." I'm not pleased at evangelicals mingling in secular issues. Are we not called out to be apart from such things, brothers? Influence? I would hope. But to have friendship with the world is enmity with God. I would encourage evangelicals to back off. The GOSPEL is OUR job. We should attend to it first before other distractions.

Christianity cannot be POSSIBLY right or wrong. It either is, or it is not. It cannot be "mostly" right either. The Scriptures themselves prohibit such a base conclusion. Your statement, "when you place interpretation of God into the hands of men" thing shows you're not understanding. MEN do not interpret God. God reveals HIMSELF. You may be uncomfortable with that and even deny His being but I can assure you myself right now: it doesn't matter what I personally THINK about God (except for my own benefit): He simple "is." What may be known of God has been made manifest to you: even the Godhead, but you suppress this knowledge in iniquity. The Scriptures say so. As I've told others: quit griping at ME. I'm only repeating what has been spoken against you from the Scriptures. I have no axe to grind. I'm not even angry with you.

Again with the flawed logic: I, myself, cannot save you. I cannot do anything in the heart of man. This is accomplished entirely and utterly by the Holy Spirit through Christ our Lord. If you are angry with Him and deny Him, then so be it. You're performing true to type, really. The atheist is the worst kind of two-dimensional paper doll. They are inevitably predictable and do only what their nature commands. I'm not disgusted nor am I condemning them. I have no power over them and wouldn't appreciate the responsibility even if I did. But you persist in the notion that the atheist is merely a sceptic and a reasonable creature after all. False. The atheist ALWAYS proves to be a creature of half-truths and prejudices. When you poke a stick in the eye of the evangelicals, I always hear you out. Shouldn't all men (even the redeemed) be under the microscope? Shouldn't we ALL be judged on our testimony? I think that's only fair. I'm ready to submit to this examination. Why does the atheist always believe they'll be given a free pass? I, myself, condemn no one. I throw no brimstone. But if I assert the Scriptures, I do so on IT'S authority and you are more than welcome to rail against it. Truly, do you have any other choice?!? I will refute your broken notion that I am out to exercise power. I simply bring a message. Do with it what you please.

Leaving you "alone" is not an option. I may stop talking with you if that annoys you and that's only polite and orderly. But you exist in the same pond as me and as long as the atheist persists in having a seat in the marketplace of free ideas, I will be there alongside you. I'm not your enemy, after all, but a still, small voice pleading in the wilderness. Or do I not have the same consideration we seem to want to share with YOU?

Your "circular logic" assertion is technically wrong. The Scriptures explain themselves and this is not a tautology. They assert what they do. You may not like it but it's not "circular." A history book tells me Lincoln spoke at Gettysburg. I may not like the speech, even deny the man existed but it's useless to say the history book doesn't assert what it does. We know you don't acknowledge the Scriptures. We're not ENTIRELY fools! LOL But if you're engaging us in ideas, you're equally foolish if you think we're going to stray from the premise that the Scriptures tell us what is necessary for salvation. Good grief? Should I suggest you can never quote Darwin? Geez, Corbie. Let's get a good grip on things. You're laughing but no one else in the room is laughing with you. We may be considered wrong but we're consistent, I think. Aren't we? Don't we evangelicals ALSO perform true to type?

Or have I said something you didn't expect?

Lucy,

You write great copy. When will we see you on Saturday Night Live?

And why are you named after Lucy, the human progenitor who resided in Africa 6,000,000 years ago? Just think: that Lucy evolved into the you-Lucy! Marvelous!

"Judge not, that ye be not judged..."

The largest problem I have with Christianity is simply this.

If you believe me to be a sinner and my actions to be vile and depraved, that is all very well for you. However, as long as my actions are not doing any harm to anyone (other than my own "soul"), you do not have the right to prevent me from committing them, or to force me to behave in a way YOU consider more appropriate. If your God exists, than HE will judge me.

That said. I am not a Christian, but I have no objection to the beliefs of my Christian friends and co-workers. Not everyone is out to "convert" me or shove their beliefs down my throat-- and my boss's little statue of the Ten Commandments on his desk doesn't offend me in any way. However, as long as there are aggressive zealots out there, and as long as they continue to try to push their agenda through legal and social channels, there needs to be opposition to them.

Christianity may be true. It may not be true. But one thing is certainly true, and that is that when you place interpretation of God into the hands of men, the only agenda that is served is that of power.

You yourself may not see it that way; you may have an earnest and tender desire to "save" me. You are doing me, and every other heathen, liberal, and sinner, much more of a favor by leaving us alone and continuing to believe that we'll face our "judgment" at God's hands. Don't condemn us, don't try to convert us, don't try to make our behavior and beliefs illegal if we're not doing anyone but ourselves any harm.

...and if you must argue with us, stop quoting the Bible to prove that the Bible is true. Nothing makes an atheist laugh harder than circular logic.

Umm... RR? Appreciate the post. I think we sort of caught you in a mood, though :-) I'm understanding your points and I'm not really wanting to be such a bother (especially out here in the open marketplace) but I don't have a way to talk offline. You make salient points: I'm concerned sometimes with the language. I'll explain.

I know you were on a roll this morning but it's my opinion the "Christ was murdered" line is an overstatement. According even to HUMAN logic and reasoning, this couldn't possibly be true. Could the Christ have died? Yes. Murdered? Nope. No one takes His life. He lays it down and has the power to take it up again. That was an important NT theoological point. Cheerfully review that one for me? Please?

Also I'm a little confused on the issue of "He’s offering you a way to avoid this" line of reasoning. It just seems thoroughly inconsistent with the idea of redemption. Either God saves men or He does not. I'm pretty sure He's not wringing His hands up in heaven worrying about the "choices" the dead will make (yet even this argument is inferred). They will always make one choice and one choice only: to remain dead. There IS no other choice.

I really won't be critical since there is nothing to be gained by it. Maybe another cup of coffee or two :)

Cheers.

Kaman, if you read carefully, it seems Lucy is anything but Christian, and is probably just trolling to give Christian's a bad name. It’s unfortunate that you didn’t read carefully enough and so quickly assume that’s a Christian, let alone that all Christians are just like that. Already you give the impression your opinions and judgments are easily and carelessly formed. And now you want us to seriously consider that your thoughts and opinions about how God is holds some weight?

“Lucy and all her friends here confirmed to me that I have made the right decision.”

If you’re so quick to condemn hundreds of millions of people based on your personal observation of even 100 of those 100+ million (100 being the number of true Christians you got to know really well, and even if we made that number 1000, the argument is the same), it seems to me you’re doing an even graver injustice than you claim God is doing. At least God can see into the minds and hearts of these 5 billion people. At least God can already see what these 5 billion people (and the billions that came before) are capable of. All of them. Not to mention that you falsely assumed Lucy was a Christian. So your assumption on a small number of Christian people includes people that aren’t even part of the group you seek to judge.

Consider modifying your own ability at rational and theological discourse before drawing such serious conclusions as to the nature of God, a divine being you’ve never even met and have little chance (just like the rest of us) of ever being able to understand him with our limited intellect. Conclusions that will have *serious* implications to the fate of your soul.

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
- Matthew 7:1-2

“Tell me I’m the greatest/nicest person in the world at I’ll give you a million dollars. If you don’t, I’ll blow you away. It's your choice”

Your analogy is bad, in my opinion. God is not the one that blows you away, in fact no one blows you away. But someone wants to torture you for eternity (even more cruel than just being blown away, as you agree many people will *want* to be blown away when they realize where they’ll end up spending eternity). He’s offering you a way to avoid this. But in spite of this offer, you and others will reject Him.

You consider that cruel. But would it not also be cruel to *allow* those who reject Him, who clearly have no desire to avoid sin, to then torture those of us who wish to be as Righteous as possible, as sinless as possible, and live by laws of brotherly love, by allowing them to come along and torture everyone else for eternity? That’s already happening. It’s called Earth. Need we remind you of all the evil that exists in the world today because of those that sin? (death, murder, rape, torture) Need we remind you of all the torture everyone has to suffer through because of those who want to sin? You want heaven to be the same way?! *Someone* is going to get the short end of the stick, and as it stands now, it’s only those who *choose* to continue to sin (and reject God in the process). A person wants to sin, and have all the “fun” that entails can do it for eternity when their life continues in the lake of fire.

So your analogy is seriously flawed in my opinion, and hence any conclusions you propose based on that analogy.

And put aside for a moment being *born* into sin. Even if we were born sinless, we would have gone on to sin anyway. Adam and Eve were born sinless. They weren’t even brought up in a sinful world like we are. They had God walking physically alongside with them as a *physical* person. You expect us to believe that people, being brought up in a sinful world, without God right next to them physically, having never physically even met God, have more chance to not sin than Adam and Eve, whose only path to sin was being given free will, who had no knowledge of Good and Evil, and *one* choice of temptation, while living with God Himself being a very real friend beside them?

The fact is, we will all sin. God is the only one that is perfect.

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one
- Romans 3:10

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
- Romans 3:23

Even Jesus says this:

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
- Matthew 19:17

The fact is, we are going to either accept or reject God’s offer to help us from this state. God is a Holy God. He is righteous. He is perfect. If we want to entertain the thought he could choose to change everyone, that might be akin to brainwashing, to electric shock therapy, to mind-control, to torturing someone until they are forced to be sinless, to lock you in a padded cell, only giving you very few things so that you do not sin, all in the name of ‘helping’ someone. People have done this now and in the past, all in the name of ‘helping’ someone. I can assure you to most outsiders that is considered anything but help, anything but good.

Or we can just choose to reject sin and accept Jesus Christ, and God will then help us become more righteous, and more Christ-like, with the power of the Holy Spirit. That’s called being a Christian.

God is choosing to *not* just ignore our wishes, override free-will, and just take us prisoner in a place some of us clearly *choose* to not want to be: heaven.

God offered the life of his only Son, to be tortured and humiliated and murdered for all to see to offer us this gift. Jesus Christ offered to be tortured, humiliated and murdered for all to see to offer us this gift. But this gift only applies to individuals that want to believe in this gift. Would any of us offer our life to save complete strangers? Would any of us offer to be tortured and killed to save complete strangers? To save evil, wicked people? And we need only believe he did this to save us from our sins to receive the gift.

Or we can continue to rationalize how bad God really is, so that we don’t have to take a look at ourselves and turn away from our sinful ways. Now we get to feel more comfortable about living a sin-filled life. Judging a Holy and all-powerful God, all in the name of feeling more comfortable living in our sin. And only when we end up in the lake of fire finally wish we had chosen otherwise.

The real problem seems to be people wanting to hold onto sin and being able to do so, all in the name of enjoying themselves and not feeling guilty doing so. So we rationalize. In the end, we can rationalize all we want. It won’t change the fact of where we’ll be spending the rest of eternity until we finally face our sin, and choose to start living a life rejecting sin by accepting Jesus Christ.

I'm sorry but anytime you start talking group activity, obviously you are going for quantity and not quality. What is your point? What is your problem? You have allowed your mind to get f@#ked is what has happened to you. You want the rush of group activity? Use your mind to play it safe...expand yourselves into the fourth diamension and have a room full of you waiting in line for her or vice versa. You see where I'm going with this? One on One is plenty for anyone, but y'all have your balls and do not come back to polite society until you've cleaned up your acts.

QUOTE Christianity can not and will not lift itself out of the false dogma of sexual negativity -- certainly it is a long way from accepting masturbation, oral sex, anal sex, homosexuality (for those who are so inclined), partner swapping, and all other activities consensually maximizing sexual variety, as the gifts from God in the way that PanDeism embraces these pleasures!! UNQUOTE That is all fine if everyone is on the same page, but what of someone who is just curious? Is that young soul persuaded with false promises of heart-felt intimacy? You see, you are no more immune to the pitfalls of human sexuality...for all of your variety...than are the rest of us, and frankly uhgg! How base can you get? Dont answer that piece of meat....have fun, and please play safe cause I don't want any pandemics of nasty little pathogens you pulled out of one hole to stick into another. Hope you find whatever it is you are pumping each other for ya Freaks! Please keep your communal crap to yourselves.

I do apologize for an earlier posting: equality between white men and white men should read equality between white men and white WOmen MY MISTAKE! GOD BLESS YOU AND YOURS, AND THANK YOU FOR YOUR PATIENCE WITH MY RANT.

At best Lucy is a Christian in name only. She speaks only for herself Kaman...

Just chill already. What's the point of getting all riled up over other people's postings? Does this help anything? ...

*smiles grandly* Yah, Kaman. Gotta love those "Christian folk" huh? LOL. Secretely, I think Lucy is one of my unbelieving cohorts stoking a fire ;-) Oh, maybe I'm too cynical for my own good.

Truly, I wish you good fortune. I cast no fireballs at you but desire only good things. Now it is natural for me to claim that no sins go unpunished and if there is no one to "settle your tab" you'll end up making the payment yourself but know that I do not say these things to hurt but to encourage.

Please do judge "Christians." If they are rude, crude, and delight in your misery then you are free to assert they are not "in the light." I fear there is a lot of pretense out there, friend. A lot of posturing and lies. But if I am worthy of your attention a little more, please read me for what I assert through the Scriptures. "You will know them by their love" and that's ANOTHER faithful saying.

No thoughts on Jesus' penis, however. LOL
Wow. The public forum is an odd place, isn't it?

Go well, friend.

--yours in Christ

Wow...Lucy is quite the spokesperson for God. Since God talks to her, everything she says must be true. You Christians must feel lucky to have someone like Lucy on your side who is so in tune to what God is thinking.

But I will not respond anymore. Lucy and all her friends here confirmed to me that I have made the right decision.

I appreciate the efforts of Maddog to be civil and thoughtful. I wonder if he has any thoughts on Jesus' penis...LOL

To Phil Wyman
Re: Your blog at http://squarenomore.blogspot.com/2007/02/christian-sexuality-part-5.html

Phil, I tried polyamory once, and I found that it only works if you've got a damn-near perfect body.

To Thoughtful:

"That is, if you drew a circle and inside the circle was 'everything that exists'. That includes the known, the unknown and the unknowable. Outside the circle is everything that doesn't exist. We can't comprehend it or think of it because by it's very nature is that it doesn't exist in material reality or in thought form either. God is the sum total of the inside and outside of the circle and more...."

I personally like to think of God as both sides of the Möbius Loop, which is not so different from your elegant description.