All Comments (40)

A few thoughts on “false-prayers”:

I have often heard people suggest to others that somehow their prayers were false or in some way inadequate. I have an intuitive resistance to such statements. I can’t quite imagine God dismissing ones prayers solely based on a failure to follow some particular formula or approved technique. Having said that; I’d like to propose that there may still be such things as “false” and/or unauthentic prayers.

We often hear about the intention of some, such as Reverend Thistlethwaite, to “pray unceasingly”. I think, using a more expansive definition of prayer that most of us are in fact praying all the time. Unfortunately, our prayers are mostly prayed to “false Gods”. And regrettably they are too frequently answered. What I mean by this is that in a way, very similar to intentional prayer, our internalized “self-talk”, those endlessly repeated voices of fear, anxiety, hatred, judgment and the like, are in fact unconscious “false-prayers”. We repeat them unintentionally and often subconsciously throughout the course of our days, even our lives.

Authentic, conscious prayer is much more difficult because it must be intentional. Only through years of deliberate effort does authentic prayer become habitual, less deliberate and begin to approach being unceasing. As authentic prayer becomes habitual it eventually crowds out our old “self-talk” and replaces it with affirmations of faith, hope, love, grace, thanks and praise. And these, I believe, are our true and authentic prayers.

To Anonymous:

"I don't think God can be described. Or should be attempted. I don't try any more."

Thanks for telling us about your experience - it was very vivid to me. I could imagine everyone's discomfort as you stumbled at the podium.

Sounds like all of you were put on the spot - asked to demonstrate how pious you were.

You didn't take the bait. It changed the tone of the evening -- and the tone of your life.

Wow, prayer. That is a very personal subject and I have enjoyed reading the essays on the site. My problem is that I do not pray enough, although when my prayer life has been good my life has been better. One thing I have learned is that you have to keep trying and trusting. Oh, and it does not have to be a formal prayer with rituals etc., it can be as simple as 'oh God please help!' or more specific like 'help me pay my bills'.

S. Heriger –

Thanks, you’ve expressed the essence I was trying to get at:

“…I discovered that regular, focused prayer…is what seemed to provide a constant, steady sense of communion with God.”

It’s neither exclusive nor inclusive – it’s personal. I don’t know much about Buddhism or meditation, but it sounds something like that, too – is that right? (for those who know about such things).

I’m aware you’ve spent some time with me explaining your approach to prayer. If you’re so inclined, I’m interested to hear about the God you seek in prayer. For instance, who is it? Jesus? Jehovah? something more general? If it’s a religious God, what effect has your prayer life had on your religion? For instance, your participation in its rituals, and your acceptance of its beliefs (e.g., virgin birth, resurrection.

Sorry, the last Anonymous at 5:05pm is mine. I keep forgetting my name.

To Rev. Dr. Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite,

You are right when you say words are inadequate to describe God.

I found that out when I was a teenager. I joined a teen group at school that was formed by the daughter of a preacher. She played guitar & made up Christian lyrics for us to sing to modern rock music, which appealed to us teens as a time-filler before school. But when she volunteered us to go to a local church and give our "testimony", I - who thought I was a Christian - found I could not describe God. She was very glib about all the great things God was, and everyone else had something to say. But I could say nothing. I got up, stood behind the podium, tried to think of what the idea meant to me. But nothing came out. I stammered, opened my mouth then closed it again several times. I finally realized I could not describe "God". And I told them so.

After the excruciating event was over, I was approached by one of the audience, who hugged me and told me she thought my attempt was the most honest and moving of all the speakers that night.

I don't think God can be described. Or should be attempted. I don't try any more.

There's an atheist group that sells a "God detector." Ralph Nader sued them for selling faulty equipment, said it didn't work no matter how much he prayed. Just kidding about Ralph but that God detector still hasn't moved the tinyiest bit. Maybe Reverand could prove the equipment is actually no good. Then Ralph can be called into action.

E. Favorite,

I had to smile when I ready the second paragraph, because I know exactly what you mean about all those things. Once again, I might have made too general of a statement. I, too, experienced all those things, but I guess what I meant was that over time, I discovered that regular, focused prayer, such as suggested by the Ms. Thistlewaite, is what seemed to provide a constant, steady sense of communion with God. It was all those other things (no response, bolts from the blue, etc.) that kept me going and got me focused on finding a way to maintain a relationship rather than wonder when or how I would encounter God next.

Peace...it's been a pleasure exchanging comments.

S. Heriger – Thanks for persevering. What you say doesn’t sound exclusionary, rather, it seems to include everyone, as per the term “general rule” and repeated use of “we,” so it still sounds as if you are saying, “this is the way it works for everyone” not “this is the way it works for me.”

From reading other threads on this forum, I know there are people who have failed in repeated attempts to get a response from God, others who get a response whenever they call upon him and others who get bolts from the blue, without even seeking. Others report sudden insights and mystical experiences without believing in God.

E. Favorite

Sorry about any misunderstanding. It's extremely difficult to make and expound upon a particular point of view in such a short space and no matter how carefully considered I might try to make mine, it seems there's always some grounds for misinterpreting them. Part of it may be my own fault for not explaining well enough. As we write things, we always have the subtext rolling through our thoughts and it's easy to forget that others can't read our minds.

In the final analysis, I still believe (as do nearly all faiths) that God does respond to us in direct proportion to how diligently we seek Him. Almost all faiths are quite clear about that...as a general rule, we must seek Him to find Him, and we seek Him through prayer. I don't mean for that to sound exclusionary, and it shouldn't.

Hope that helps...

E. Favorite

Sorry about any misunderstanding. It's extremely difficult to make and expound upon a particular point of view in such a short space and no matter how carefully considered I might try to make mine, it seems there's always some grounds for misinterpreting them. Part of it may be my own fault for not explaining well enough. As we write things, we always have the subtext rolling through our thoughts and it's easy to forget that others can't read our minds.

In the final analysis, I still believe (as do nearly all faiths) that God does respond to us in direct proportion to how diligently we seek Him. Almost all faiths are quite clear about that...as a general rule, we must seek Him to find Him, and we seek Him through prayer. I don't mean for that to sound exclusionary, and it shouldn't. Hope that helps...

So God created Man and Woman, told them to be fruitful and multiply, then he created Adam and Eve and told them not to. Or were Adam and Eve also Man and Woman? Anyway Adam and Eve chose the first option and were exiled from Eden. They had two boys, Cain and Abel. This must have made the multiplying thing simpler, as who could Cain and Abel have married? But this was the age of miracles, or gay marriage and miracles, and so God destroyed all of humanity except Noah and his family and two of all the animals and birds and bugs and whatnot. But that still didn't help, so he took to a policy of whimsical and random genocide for a couple of thousand years. Finally, at whit's end, He decided He loved us so much he had his only begotten son nailed to a post, but it was all the Jews fault. I say different strokes for different folks, but if I knew somebody like that, my first thought would not be to get down on my knees and seek a warmer, closer, more transcendent communion with him.

For me prayer comes in different forms.

More traditional prayers of petition are no longer something I do with the expectation that I’ll get a direct answer or intervention. Rather, over the years I have come to see prayer primarily as an ongoing relationship or conversation with God. This almost continual dialogue has become my primary way to enter into and rest in God’s presence and/or what I sometimes describe as the “mystery of life”. It is more a disposition that keeps me in relationship to God than it is anticipation or expectation that God is going to intervene to provide a solution to the travails of life.

Another important kind of prayer for me is contemplation. This is a quiet conscious emptying of my mind, with the hope and desire that my inner silence will open my heart and mind to the presence of God.

I also find that study too is an important means of communing with God. Especially when reading the Bible or studying world religions, theology, philosophy and psychology, I feel a connection to the divine presence. For me this starts with a conscious disposition to open myself to the truth, to open my mind and heart to both knowledge and inspiration.

Other forms of prayer that have increasing importance for me are prayers of praise and/or blessing. I am increasingly drawn to offer praise to God. And I am also drawn to saying silent prayers of blessing for myself, those closest to me and frequently to strangers. These various ways of being in relationship to God are all manifestations of my desire to enter into, and as much as possible, to remain in constant communion with God.

I pray...I have daily devotions. I also am mindful of my connection to the Gods in my daily life.

I do not think that it much matters what you call god...after all god is a job description not a name. What I find myself doing is striving within to reach outward. I find God/dess within.

A good temple incense-Nag Champa, flickering candles and soft music sets the atmosphere and feeds the senses as it also relaxes my mind, then I can open myself up to the divine.

Cleanse thy heart and mind...
Discover the divine in nature,
and the nature of the divine.

I am Wiccan and go about religion a bit differently then Christians do. lol. Praying, for me, is not "for" anything really, it is mainly to make contact and to be mindful of where I need to be. When you walk a path without written directions you have to slow down and take stock of where you are...there is alot of inner map reading.
Blessings,
terra

S. Heriger:

Thanks for explaining. Given that you said [caps added] “…God will ONLY respond to US in direct proportion to how diligently WE seek Him, and WE can ONLY seek Him through prayer” I think it’s understandable that I would think you were referring to more than just your own seeking for God. It did seem as if you were setting forth the one way for people in general to communicate with God.

In all honesty, it seems to me like a continuing pattern, in your third paragraph above, when you say “…the more YOU consciously seek God (in whatever way YOU choose), the more YOU begin to sense His presence. Almost ANYONE of any faith would agree with that...”

It seems like an assertion of the way things are, rather than an expression of your personal experience.

Perhaps I’m being overly critical. I am sensitive to people making seemingly broad statements about faith, especially when there are so many different faiths that people follow.

Brambleton your comment has all the merit of one made by a participant at Woodstock, an acid rock concert held in the great outdoors attended by even more and lasting longer. A little pot does the same trick for the "other" spirit feelers.

An idiot is an idiot.

I am tempted to say "Re-puzzled" or "Still-puzzled" but I will refrain for sake of continuity.

As I said, prayer is like meditation (or quiet reflection). Sitting in an empty church or sitting on a quiet hilltop by yourself looking at the sun setting), both of these things can be nice moments we can try to find to re-charge.

I am not sure if it's so much that god (or whoever) answers prayers, but that we are able to summon emotional strength to face new challenges and prayer is a way to gather ourselves. Just like everything else in life seems to be: it works sometimes and doesn't work other times. To say it always works because that is how god said so may sound good but really, if something explains everything, it really explains nothing.

As an additional note on the subject matter, any of the 500,000+ men who were part of the Promise Keepers "Stand in the Gap" rally on the grounds of the National Mall in 1997 can testify to the power of prayer. It was an incredible day of fellowship and prayer.

Billfleish and the Buddhists

Bill baby
us Buddhists don't BELIEVE in a God
the way the theists believe in a God.

we believe Buddha,
or philosophical teacher
was a human just llike you or meeeee.

If you meet the Buddha on the road,
kill him.

I normally refrain from appeasing BGONE's drivel, but when biblical facts are intentionally distorted for selfish purposes, I must retort. As I stated in another thread, the Lord instructed us to pray not only for our needs, but to reach out and pray for others as well. You can easily find this in I Timothy 2:1-6. . . .

"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."

I read the foregoing comnments, noting the sundry ways the contributors "found" God and/or the "peace" they were seeking. Nowhere, however, was any indication given--in concrete, not gobbledegook terms--as to how they recognized --the success of their prayer.

To me, Susan was right when she wrote that words are inadequate to discuss a relationship with God. Thus no one can discuss the subject using concrete,unambiguous terms. That also goes for the Buddhists, to my way of thinking.

Jesus prays for forgiveness, but that other someone pays you back with karma...

Perhaps by emphasizing Jesus' divinity too much, it makes it more difficult for us mere mortals to emulate (become closer to) Jesus? The Buddha was human and a model to follow, not divine.

Meditation doesn't need a name or an organization. There was a situation in my life where I was to busy to think for a long period of time. After it was over I was asked what the hardest part was for me. To the surpirse of the questioner I answered that I got no time to myself to just think. It wasn't the terror, blood, sweat, tears and toil but simply that I was fully involved around the clock. No time was set aside for me. No fair!!!

I don't pray to supernatural beings but I do go over things very carefully, (as best I can) in my mind and try to make sense out of the nonsensible. I don't cheat and come up with childish ways to explain the unexplainable but continue to analysize it realizing that I may and most likely will never figure it out.

In my experience Buddhist are the most pleasant and understanding people I've ever met and Christians are the most aggravating never missing an opportunity to condemn me to hell if I refuse their overtures to become one.

Now you know why I find hoax buster so much fun. He gave me a puzzle and I see the answer. The Bible, a source of aggravation for all Americans at this time is a proved hoax. Hooray!!!

As flies to Wanton Boys
Are we to the Gods.

They kill us for their sport.

W Shakespeare
King Lear

This is where God's mystery lies.

Buddhism over Prayer

the B man speaks the truth.

Why do we NEED to imagine an All Powerful Guiding Force 'Up there" who listens to our prayers.

Isn't it a regressive, child=like denial of the need to grow up?

Ernst Becker, in his Pulitzer winner Denial of Death, calls this mythology
"Immortality Machines"
myths to take away the necessity of accepting our mortality in a grown up way.

buddhism is the most spiritually developed way to accept our mortality in a grown up way.

Meditate, don't pray.
Meditate on human compassion
Meditate on beauty
Meditate on the flow of the universe
Meditate on the way things are and the way things flow

You get more benefit than prayer
and you lose the illusion of an omniscient God
who kills thousands in tsunamis
and sends babies to their death with childhood diseases.

Buddhist meditation will provide all the beneficial things that you mention regarding Christian prayer, and to practice, you need not depend upon the delusion of a male imaginary friend up in the sky to whom you can petition for favors.

BRAMBLETON - all supernatural beings are Gods. Devil qualifies. Pray hard. Devil MAY deliver the goods but history shows that all Dveil has to offer absolutely is to be with HIM for all eternity. When it come to getting what you want Devil may help but HE's not very reliable.

Why do your absolute truths require faith to be believed anyhow?

Prayer is a violation of God's order, Genesis 3:19 "You will eat your bread by the sweat of your brow" and therefore prayers will NOT be heard by God. Devil is all ears of course so pray hard. Devil is somewhat limited in what HE can deliver directly but will justify breaking God's only commandment about how we get our bread. Lying, cheating, stealing/robbing and killing are all allowable by command of Devil.

God did NOT say "pray hard and I will deliver what you want with little or no effort on your part." Faith certainly moves mountain of lies to the absolute truth column. It also knocks down tall buildings and sends thousands, millions even to an early grave, in God's name of course. God is on our side?

Somebody is on our side. http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul but hurry. There's such a rush to get on board for hell the price of a ticket is going out of sight. Now the white house has to throw in tax dollars in the billions to faith based ticket sellers. It's the old fashioned "appease the gods" routine, don't you expect?

There are many forms of prayer as have already shared, but the one that interests me is public prayer. It seems to have a calming effect upon the participants whether in a social or formal gathering. Many people from different cultures seem to have mutual respects for prayers in meetings, and it's often been a good starting point to set the mood.

A good prayer can have a positive attitude on the participants, and can result with creative resolutions to shared community problems.

Usually, people pray to God and mention Jesus, but others have used neutral objects or used just the God phrase without reference to a specific deity.

It is possible that the more people meet to resolve their common concerns, the better their social relationships become as they set about resolving their social issues. The more they pray as in their meetings, the better the outcome of their meetings, and in turns impact on their community.

On the other hand, if people feel uncomfortable and left out by the prayers, they obviously wouldn't be in a mood to resolve issues and this of course would impact on the state of their community.

Yes, there is a relationship between prayer and social cohesion.

E. Favorite

I'm not sure how you arrived at your conclusion, because it doesn't resemble anything I said. I made it very clear that I was speaking about my own experiences, not trying to apply them as a universal value. I simply recounted the process as it applied to me.

Prayer, by most definitions found within many faiths, is much more than just getting down on your hands and knees. It's simply a broad term for conciously working to connect with God. If you do it another way, then I think that's wonderful.

I do believe that the more you consciously seek God (in whatever way you choose), the more you begin to sense His presence. Almost anyone of any faith would agree with that...it's not something that's unique or exclusive to one faith. You made it sound like I was claiming some sort of exclusivity, and I certainly wasn't.

S. Heriger, you say:

"I've looked at life from both sides, and now realize that God will only respond to us in direct proportion to how diligently we seek Him, and we can only seek Him through prayer."

You say you learned this through your personal experience.

Are you asserting that what you describe is the only way to seek God? Do you think God will only help those who have spent a lot of time praying to him? I wonder how can a person know when they are praying diligently enough.

Please consider that others' personal experiences may be different, thus others may find God or whatever comfort and solace they need in life in some other way.

And love to you as well, Betty...

I believe we're all God's children and we all struggle toward Him at wildly different velocities. I don't judge anyone because of where they are on their journey because that's a path we're on for all our lives, and who knows where we'll end up? If someone had judged me 20 years ago, they would have written me off as a self-centered hedonist, so I'm glad to have continued on my journey. Some stop, some move backward, some dawdle, some move forward slowly, and some at full speed. It's only where we find ourselves at the end of our lives that truly matters.

Peace...

It seems prayer (like meditation) is a way to make a strong commitment to something. So even as an agnostic, I can understand how many people of faith see and experience the power of prayer.
For instance, if I want to pass an exam and pray to god to help me, then this is (or should be) a commitment to work hard to achieve that goal, not for god to solve the problems for me. No reasonable person believes (I hope not!) that god will "bend the rules" so that I can pass the exam without studying. If I pray to god for something (with the implicit assumption that my undying gratitude and devotion will be given in return), then how is that different from bartering with god?

Although, I cannot see how prayer in the Christian sense will work for me, meditation and quiet reflection (whether it is through prayer, meditation, listening to good music and relaxing, taking a walk in the park, etc.) seems necessary to take stock and re-energize in preparation for what comes next in life.

S Heriger's God

SH, your God sounds a lot like mine, with the very desireable similarity that it is YOUR OWN
that YOU HAVE FOUND

I truly think that is wonderful
(as long as your god doesn't tell you to kill me because i am an infidel, and there seems little chance of that.

It is the Theist, dogmatic, exclusive, authoritarian Gods that i have trouble with. NOt yours.

You probably know the saying
:"Tell me what you believe in and we'll call that God". that's where i am

if you said to me "God is the Universe"
i would say that is a Just fine (partial) definition

love

betty

in other words, one does not HAVE to be a Buddhist.
on has to find God for oneself.
and then lose oneself, say we buddhists

I would have to respectfully disagree with Betty's post, and agree with Thistlewaite's comments. I spent the first 47 years of my life pursuing a presence I sensed within me, and tried nearly everything to make a connection to it, and that included meditation, Buddhism, you name it. Those things allowed me to find some temporary calm, but did nothing to remove the longing for something more. I discovered that any "god concept" that I chose was usually nothing more than a weak reflection of my own values, and therefore not of much real use to me.

It was only after spending a few years exploring a rational basis for God, and pursuing it through prayer that I experienced and found what I'd been looking for. I spent many years mocking the existence of God only to discover that when you seek Him with all your heart and don't hold back, He makes Himself known to you. True prayer does require that we lay aside our pride and surrender, something few of us are willing to do because of intellectual resistance and peer pressure. I know, because I fought that fight myself. I've looked at life from both sides, and now realize that God will only respond to us in direct proportion to how dilegently we seek Him, and we can only seek Him through prayer.

This post isn't meant as a diatribe against people who don't believe, but simply as an expression of my own experiences. As far as trying to change my mind with some rational argument, trust me when I say I already went down all those paths myself for most of my life, and found them to ultimately be dead ends. I still find my faith to be based upon some mysterious and unexplainable things, but my personal experiences with prayer allows me to believe anyway.

In the end, I finally decided to accept on faith what I sensed to be true from the beginning. As Blaise Pascal said,"There is a God-shaped vacuum in every heart," and mine has been filled. I'm at peace with that.

IMHO, God started the Big Bang. He/She also granted the gifts of Free Will and Future to all the thinking beings in the Universe. This being the case, God is not able to alter life and requests/prayers will not be answered. Statistically, your request might come true but it is simply the result of the variabiliy/randomness of Nature.

So put down your rosaries and prayer beads and stop worshiping cows and bowing to Mecca six times a day. Instead work hard at your job, take care of aging parents, volunteer at a soup kitchen, donate to charities and the poor and continue to follow the Commandments of your religion or any good rules of living as gracious and good human beings. And lets all hope there indeed is a place called Heaven!!!

Buddhist Meditation is Far More Efficacious Than Prayer.

Whether or not there is a God, even scientists will tell us that Prayer has SOME Benefits.

But we can get all those Benefits and MORE if we
as Norrie recommends
Practice Buddhist Meditation
rather than prayer.

Study its benefits if you aren't familiar with it.

It is a 3,000 year old Spiritual Practice, the most highly developed in the world.

AND
it avoids the Supernatural Mythological dependence on God or Zeus or Allah.

As a Christian, I am not looking for an "approximation" to a relationship with God. I pray for an array of specific reasons, but I use "general" prayer as a way to listen only to Him and to hear what He has in store for my life.

A disbelief in the Christian God is irrelevant to this thread. The writer's comments are directed toward praying and the need for prayer.

Rev. Ms. Thistlewaite,

I believe that your life would become simpler if you simply meditated to become totally present in the present moment. When you achieve this, you have attained an approximation to your ideal of "making your life a prayer to God."

Practiced meditators continue automatically in this state as they go about their daily lives, after the formal meditative state has ended.

This practice also avoids your having to contend with mental concerns with a supposed "God" for whose existence there is no evidence.

Ruminations about "God" prevent your being fully present in the present moment, and prevent your life from becoming a kind of prayer.