I think the best we can probably hope for is the separation of the Latin Church into several linguistic or national churches on the Orthodox model and in communication with the Orthodox Ecumenical Patriarch (who won't be able to swallow Rome whole and should not be asked to). Any change on how our own patriarchy operates (be it American or North Atlantic) can then be ours to insist on - especially if the Anglicans become part of the deal. I suspect that quite a few Bishops will be drawn from the ranks of Mothers Superior and their more liberal equivalents - however this may only be in the English or American Church. I can't see Africa following suit during this generation. There might also be conservative and liberal options in the Galatian Church - or the die-hard conservatives may retain ties to Rome instead rather than submit to the charism of unity (which would be understandable, but still a pity).

If we just punted the male heirarchy and replaced it with married women then all problems would be solved.
Get real. Women are humans too, no better and no worse than men, though different.
Donna, your suggestions may be popular but I doubt they were inspired by our Father in heaven.

Hey, have you heard the good news. The new Hubble telescope has picked up magnificent views of Heaven and got clear shots of God too. It's amazing. Way way across the cosmos. You can see God quite clearly sitting on what looks like a throne, surrounded by nuns and priests and everything. Papers in the UK are all showing the pictures, and the BBC is showing it over and over during special news bulletins. It's so exciting, I can hardly believe it. Until now I was an atheist. But how can I be an atheist now. It's the clear proof I always said could never happen. I'm amazed by this. Maybe God's about to come down to Earth to clear up the problem that the pope has with all these pedophile allegations. Praise the Lord.

Hey, have you heard the good news. The new Hubble telescope has picked up magnificent views of Heaven and got clear shots of God too. It's amazing. Way way across the cosmos. You can see God quite clearly sitting on what looks like a throne, surrounded by nuns and priests and everything. Papers in the UK are all showing the pictures, and the BBC is showing it over and over during special news bulletins. It's so exciting, I can hardly believe it. Until now I was an atheist. But how can I be an atheist now. It's the clear proof I always said could never happen. I'm amazed by this. Maybe God's about to come down to Earth to clear up the problem that the pope has with all these pedophile allegations. Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord.

Okay, let me get this straight, if we dismantle hierarchy (which this columnist implies is always oppressive and bad) and each become our own Pope, we'll remake the Catholic Church to be much better and re-enfranchise everybody... in what way exactly? The proliferation of private opinion as the ultimate rule in the life of Christians (already a reality for Protestants, and heterodox Catholics like Donna Frietas) will orient us more strongly to Truth and bring about Christian unity... in what way exactly? Not at all, actually!! Donna Frietas seems to want Protestantism, I don't think she understands Catholicism well at all nor seems to have much regard or use for the Catholic faith.

As Catholic Christians we believe in (and pray for everyday in the "Our Father") the rule of God over Mankind (and all Creation), we believe in the rule of the human soul (enflamed by divine Love) over the human body, by which means all the activity of the person may be transoformed into Love (such a person is a saint). We believe in hierarchy, in the acute knowledge that human beings are imperfect and human relationships (personal and institutional) are in continual need of purification. The Church needs to listen to and value the contributions of laypeople and particularly women moreso than in the past, and the Church is aware and making concerted efforts in that direction, and great leaders like Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have spoken healing words and made apologies for the failures of the past, and asked for our help.

I invite anybody reading, Catholic or not, to pray for Christian unity, for the Catholic Church (and the Pope first and foremost) to be a true witness to the values of Charity in all its aspects, to be a force for peace in the world, for human dignity and life, and for the good of the poorest and most marginalized.

I don't believe that will come to pass by destroying the Church!

Off topic but since the there is continued discussion about pedophilia:

A thorough review of the RCC abuse situation has been posted at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases .

It is suggested everyone reads this review to see at least what the USA Catholic Church has or is doing about the problem.

And don't forget the following:

The sex abuse problems with the Jehovah Witnesses:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses_and_child_sex_abuse

With the Southern Baptist Convention:

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1855948_1861760_1862212,00.html#ixzz0jg0lEyZj

“Facing calls to curb child sex abuse within its churches, in June the Southern Baptist Convention — the largest U.S. religious body after the Catholic Church — urged local hiring committees to conduct federal background checks but rejected a proposal to create a central database of staff and clergy who have been either convicted of or indicted on charges of molesting minors. The SBC decided against such a database in part because its principle of local autonomy means it cannot compel individual churches to report any information. And while the headlines regarding churches and pedophilia remain largely focused on Catholic parishes, the lack of hierarchical structure and systematized record-keeping in most Protestant churches makes it harder not only for church leaders to impose standards, but for interested parties to track allegations of abuse.

With rabbis and other clerics:

Brad Hirschfield: When Priests And Rabbis Commit Sexual Abuse

Mar 29, 2010 ......
huffingtonpost.com/rabbi.../when-priests-and-rabbis-c_b_516386.html

“The words used by Pope Benedict and others in responding to the Church's ever-deepening sexual abuse crises reflect a sickness that is not unique to the Catholic community. In fact, that sickness creeps into all religious communities of which I know, and leaves a trail of victims in its wake every time. I refer to the way in which religious leaders and the communities which they lead wear the mantle of victimhood to cover their naked moral failings."

The issue on plate for RCC is to settle their pedophilia scandal. They first need get rid of their leadership. Which means cashiering at least 5 or 6 layers its leadership, starting with the Mr. Ratzinger. Once they have done which would probably take some five years, then they can think of where else to stick their noses. They have shown that they cannot chew and walk at the same time, so hope they wont try it again. Liberation of the oppressed people will happen with or without RCC's help. I am of the position that it will probably be faster without than with. As far as I am concerned RCC has no place in the public square, and should never have had it nor should it ever have it. If they limit themselves to such mundane activities as Goodwill stores etc, that would be the greatest boon to the humankind.

Yes, you definately have the answer. Liberalize the Church in both doctrine and structure because, you know, it's worked so well for the Episcopalians and liberal Protestants.

The sex abuse crisis is a problem of priests, bishops, sisters and laypeople not being Catholic enough; not being fully committed to the teachings of our Lord and His Church. And your recommendation is that we punt what's left of any commitment to Christ in favor of leftist political and social ideology. This is a crisis of faith and discipline, Ms. Freitas, not an opportunity to expliot for one's political and social agenda. Pathetic!

Liberation theology is a theological fad whose time has come and gone. It's dead. And it's dead because it gives no life.

While it responded to genuine injustice, its reductionist understanding of that injustice resulted in a reductionist theology - one which reduced Christ to little more than a run of the mill revolutionary.

And religious orders and communities which embraced this anthropocentrized Christ are dying away. In the end, Christ is about salvation. Once the focus on that is lost, so is Christianity.

A thorough review of the abuse situation has been posted at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases .

It is suggested everyone reads this review to see at least what the USA Catholic Church has or is doing about the situation.

And don't forget the following:

http://www.minddisorders.com/Ob-Ps/Pedophilia.html

"The onset of pedophilia usually occurs during adolescence. Occasionally pedophiles begin their activities during middle age but this late onset is uncommon. In the United States, about 50% of men arrested for pedophilia are married. "

ANY RCC ADMINISTRATER THAT SILENCE THE TRUTH OF SEX ABUSE CRIMES OF CHILDREN TO PROTECT THE IMAGE OF THE CHURCH MUST RESIGN FROM TOP TO BOTTOM. Those that did must be asked three questions. WHAT DID THE KNOW? WHEN DID THEY KNOW? WHAT DID THEY DO WITH WHAT THEY KNEW? It is time for a NEW POPE and then VATICAN III to turn the RCC around.

The reality/"full-circle" of the RCC in the 21st century:

Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/ carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus).

Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before.

In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT/Torah, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

Current problems:

Pedophiliac priests, "Easter", blood and body low calorie wafers, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

Donna Freitas;

I enjoyed your post, and have nothing but sympathy for your plight. But you know, the very definition of indoctrination is that it's nearly impossible to overcome. To be raised to believe something - when all around you also believe - is usually quite overwhelming, and becomes in one's own mind the very truth of existence; something one cannot live without. Look at our Muslim cousins, or Hindus, or any others who have been raised to believe things that you and I 'know' are plainly untrue. Would you praise them for being stubbornly unmovable faith-wise? Personally I believe it is very sad that we cling so defiantly to what our parents and peers insisted was the one great truth, when maybe it's no truth at all.

Having pondered the things I was taught to believe as a child - I eventually saw that I was simply as mistaken as the 9/11 terrorists, who were so certain that Allah existed, and was waiting for them in Paradise (with virgins for all) that they destroyed themselves and thousands of innocent others - just because they were raised to believe that such nonsense was a reality. We can be brought up to believe anything when all around us believe it too. Give it some thought Donna. You can live without it. What I learned is that freedom is better than a fixed belief in some deity or other, who almost certainly never existed; just like the celestial virgins that the terrorists thought were real, and died for.

It would appear that the "Church" and 'Faith' has come full circle to the chaos that led to the Council of Nicea! Today we have been witnessing, especially in America, the plethora of 'churches' deriving from unbridled 'Egos' and the human need for guidance and support. Despite the human failings being discussed here, only the Roman Cathoilc Faith continues 'on message'. There appears no other 'serious' leadership and the 'confused/self-interesteed' continue to flake off the "ROCK". Today, one is challenged to find a 'Constantine' to knock heads and reenergise 'Reason'! Human failings[EGO] will always be with us, but one wonders, if my fellow readers understand that the real issue here is the survival of the Judeo-Christian ethic and 'Western Civilization', yes, even America. The Roman Catholic Church continues unique in it's origen and message.
Hence, it continues to be the primary target of the Secular-Progressives and it's ancient enemy. Our current President, a Constantine, he is not. Just listen to him!

All marxist analyses have one major problem: they can never answer the question of " so after the revolution they call for, what is next?" What is the better world going to look like? They fall silent.

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a
mythical character as was mythical Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

Many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and many of their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482
--------------
No, they haven't. The blogger's source is a 2002 book review, which he has been citing for eight years.

The second step, once Liberation Theology is restored, should be to liberate this blog from CCNL1.

The second thing should be to canonize Oscar Romero, providing the RCC retains saints, begging forgiveness of God and Man for what the Vatican did to that good man.

What the RCC and Protestant "peasants" are learning:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a
mythical character as was mythical Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

Many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and many of their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482

2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

3. Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams, the Great “Babs” et al, founders of Christian-based religions or combination religions also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of angelic visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (original sin, resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

As someone who came of age during the '70's, I vaguely remember the "liberation theology" movement. Not that it mattered much at my home Church, which I've dubbed "St. Mary of the Bored Caucasian". Liberation theology, as well as the Catholic Charismatic movement, was the province of Commie Pinko Leftists that were fomenting Communist revolutions in Central America. When JPII became Pope, he kicked out a lot of the liberation theologists, like Fr. Matthew Fox. They also downplayed the Catholic Charismatic movement for much the same reasons. While I think that this was a mistake, it makes sense from the Church's perspective. You don't want the peasants getting ideas and challenging authority, do you?

Would the move to end tax exemptions for any group generate the added taxes/contributions needed to pay for universal health care?? Would such a move be considered "Liberation Theology"????

The money spent by the health-"profiteers" on lobbying should be spent on health insurance for those who cannot presently afford it. Would such a move be considered "Liberation Theology"??

YOU ARE INVITED TO PARTICIPATE IN A NEW BLOG…

Just posted:

VATICAN CONFIRMS REPORTS OF SEXUAL ABUSE AND RAPE OF NUNS BY PRIESTS IN 23 COUNTRIES

http://theexistentialatheist.blogspot.com/

“The only way to cure the cancer of catholicism, stop the pedophilia, and end the rape of nuns by priests is to begin each ceremony of ordination to the deaconate with castration. Let any priest who wants to be celibate make a gift of his balls to jesus.

So how do you foment revolution in this institution? And more importantly, what is the plan for winning the peace after you win the war?

Clearly, the laity could simply boycott services, but the charity services, and the schools need to continue operating. You could milk the church dry with lawsuits, continue pummeling the pope off his agenda, have host countries refuse his entry visa, etc.

But what is left? Is there anything worth salvaging... to an atheist like me, well, no, not really. But to the millions whose community services, schools, and lenten fish frys are staples provided by church, perhaps the complete destruction of the church is not a good thing.

That leaves self-sacrifice. A mass of bishops, pope included, falling on their swords for the good of the church and of mankind. Lesser bishops, stepping up, renouncing senseless legacy dogmas, demanding that those complicit in this foul operation do the falling while the ascendant hold the sword steady and send the fallen to obscure monkdom--in prison if warranted.

More than a schism, a re-folding from inside out, then a resewing of the garment so it can never grow too big to fail again.

!Viva la revolucion!

Preach it, sister. :)

Obviously the RCC is not the only tax-exempt, lobbying group with substantial assets. Considering the billions of dollars the RCC has paid out to settle sex abuse claims, there "ain't" much left at least in the USA)

And from guidestar.com:

“The tax-exempt The Anti-Defamation League of B’nai B’rith has a professional lobbying staff of approximately 528 in 28 offices nationwide, of those , two staff members based in Washington DC devoted 75% of their time, and the other devoted approximately 50% engaged in advocacy on (Congressional) legislative proposals related to federal hate crime laws, global anti-terrorism, the Middle East Peace Process, immigration issues, the use of government money to fund faith-based organizations and counter-terrorism proposals outside Washington, DC.”

The total revenue for the ADL in 2008 was $59,960,134 mostly coming from contributions and grants.

Then there is the "non-profit" ACLU who has over $225 million invested in the stock and bond markets. Non-profits pay no taxes on dividends, interest and capital gains.

The largest of the lobbyists:(note the large sums of money being spent by health "profiteers" on lobbying )

Lobbying Client Total 1998-2009

US Chamber of Commerce $606,758,180
American Medical Assn $220,832,500
General Electric $196,410,000
AARP $175,702,064
American Hospital Assn $174,890,431
Pharmaceutical Rsrch & Mfrs of America $173,403,920
AT&T Inc $150,471,757
Northrop Grumman $143,005,253
Exxon Mobil $138,886,942
National Assn of Realtors $138,417,380
Blue Cross/Blue Shield $136,317,077
Business Roundtable $134,030,000
Edison Electric Institute $133,995,999
Verizon Communications $132,534,841
Lockheed Martin $122,340,423
Boeing Co $121,528,310
General Motors $106,914,483
Southern Co $104,620,694
Freddie Mac $96,194,048
Altria Group $93,650,000

Would the move to end tax exemptions for any group generate the added taxes/contributions needed to pay for universal health care?? Would such a move be considered "Liberation Theology"????

The money spent by the health-"profiteers" on lobbying should be spent on health insurance for those who cannot presently afford it. Would such a move be considered "Liberation Theology"??

There is no heaven of glory bright, and no hell where sinners roast. Here and now is our day of torment! Here and now is our day of joy! Here and now is our opportunity! Choose ye this day, this hour, for no redeemer liveth!

The only way to cure the cancer of catholicism, and stop the pedophilia, is to begin each ceremony of ordination to the deaconate with castration. Let any priest who wants to be celibate make a gift of his balls to jesus.

YOU ARE INVITED TO PARTICIPATE IN A NEW BLOG…

…that tackles Church abuse, separation of Church and State, Atheism, Buddhism, Existentialism….

http://theexistentialatheist.blogspot.com/

MASS LAWSUITS ATAINST THE POPE, by Farnaz Mansouri
CONCEPTS + LOGIC = KNOWLEDGE, by Blacksun
MAN AND REASON, by Randall Duncan
RATZINGER’S VATICAN: SEX, LIES AND SECRETS, by Emily Helm.
THE NEW BUDDHIST ATHEISM, by Mark Vernon

Donna Freitas

I imagine that you know that the Catholic Church teaches that Mary Magdelene is the Apostle to the Apostles and also teaches that Jesus, Personally, sent her to the Apostles.

Maybe some should take to heart some of the things that they teach.

Also it was from a Lady's acceptance, ""Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.", that God became One of us.

Many Catholics put these two Marys on a pedestal rather than as two fellow human beings, who along with all the other female and male members of humanity are children of God.

Putting anyone on a pedestal whether it be these two Marys or any of the clergy or any of the saints is dehumanizing to all and most of all to the one put on the pedestal.

It can be fine to draw inspiration from others but ultimately Jesus's invitation was to "Come follow Me".

Even God became One of us and in doing so became a Child of God before that He was not a He, She or an It but the Second Person of the Trinity.

I look at Jesus as a Unique Child of God in that He Is God and yet He is a Child of God, just as every other human being is a Child of God.

All of humanity are God's Children, "Let Us make man (humanity) in Our Image...", we are all different but as I learned in second grade, "we are all equal in God's Eyes".

Catholic means universal and if God's Plan is not universal, as in the ultimate salvation of not only the whole human race but also all of creation, then it is not Good News at all, not even close.

See you all in the Kingdom, the new heavens and the new earth, the seventh day shall dawn even tho the night of the sixth day shall precede it.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

The Church, broken up and divested, is worth at least a Trillion American Dollars. And Dividing that into a Billion Catholics is lots of money.

Uncle Sam should allow for a 'tax Exempt' 'Gift Tax' (not on Capital Gains) in the event the American Archdiocese is Judicially forced to divest itself (liquidate) completely and broken up like The 7-Region-Bell Companies of the 1980's.

This is the only plausible way.

ThishowIseeit

You wrote, "Don't forget: science has proven that the Book of Genesis should not to be taken literally, ergo the entire Bible- including the NT- should not be taken literally."

Are you saying that the whole book of Genesis has been proven non-literal by science?

Just wondering but could you tell me what science has proved about the formation of the Jews as a People?

Do you know that the word "day" in the bible sometimes refers to a period of time rather than 24 hours?

There are some that say everything in the bible is literal and not only literal but literal in their way of seeing it, not all look at it that way.

Some people believe that God created everything except God and others believe lots of other things.

There are many, many theories about the universe, are there not?

There are many, many stories in the bible and some are literal and some are not.

The seventh "day", the new heavens and the new earth, shall arrive but the night of the sixth "day" will precede it.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

The Roman Catholic Church should break up and send checks to all registered Parishioners starting from a prearranged or predetermined Date.

Hope my share or Check comes before Jesus comes.

I'm waiting Mr. Pope. I don't want to be a Catholic anymore. My Jewish friends want me to convert since my husband is Jewish.

I Pray that I get the check before then so I can pay the Rabbi.

Ms Freitas,
since the advent of humans, many religions have come and gone. Humans have invented thousands of Supreme Beings and almost all have been forgot. Because history is a good teacher, soon the few G-ds still remaining will meet the same fate, so what's the use to fix the present institutions? First of all, many of these institutions are social systems masquerading as Religions; they just want to control the masses. Don't forget: science has proven that the Book of Genesis should not to be taken literally, ergo the entire Bible- including the NT- should not be taken literally. But I do believe that the Ethic Of Reciprocity- being practiced for at least the last five millinnia- will endure.

Brava!

Donna Freitas,

While I am a practicing Episcopalian, not Roman Catholic, I want you to know that I stand in awe at your clear and moral reasoning, your beautiful vision, and your courage. You are gaining allies here. Thank you!