All Comments (86)

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Yes, yes. Lets just put forth more cynical maxims, with probably no real weight in them, forward to denounce orthodox Christianity. That will get it.

The sadistic "slaughter" committed in the Bible were from one of two camps:

1) Old testament God ordering slaughter of the helpless or the natives of area's as Israel moves in.

2). Sanhedrin type so-called Jews who murdered the disciples of Christ.

One of two.

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Like many people, after 9/11, I decided to look into the history and teachings of the islamic faith. I knew a little before then, but I was actually seeking to be able to answer for myself, the question posed in this thread; Is Islam a religion of peace (as many muslims claim) in whose name a substantial minority are comitting atrocities, or is the problem with Isalmic violence inherent in Islam itself. I read a sizable number of books in the ensuing years, kincluding the koran. I read several bios of Muhammed. I have arrived at the founded opinion that violence against those who do not believe as any particular branch of Islam believes, is clearly inherent in the life and teachings of Muhammed. Even when considering the different ethos of his time, Muhammed's actions and especially his later teachings (allegedly given him directly from allah) are shocking in their cruelty and venality. His later "revelations" are much more oriented towards to excusing his free exercise of libido and the cruel persecution of those who did not believe him than aything else, it seems. (In this respect, I see similarities between muhammed and Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon church, whose life resembles muhammed's in some ways.) There have been a great number of peaceful and learned Muslims since his time, but it seems clear to me that Islam can only be a tolerant and peace loving religion to the extent that it disregards many of the direct teachings of its founder.

Islam is not the only religion for which this is true. The god of the Old Testament is also a childishly jealous, temperamental, and blood loving tyrant. While I am not a christian, I do see a difference between the relatively peace and tolerance oriented teachings of jesus (as recorded by his acolytes many years after the alleged fact) as compared with muhammed. Of course, the Papacy saw fit to inject the cruelty and intolerance later on.

Before I get all the responses about the study of the esoterica of Islam being a necessity for understanding any element of it, I will say in advance that I do not beleve that this is true in any subject. Were this true, we would all abandon any effort to understand anything, because we would not know as mch about it as the world's foremost experts. As Dylan put it, "you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows."

Dear Gaby,

What have you been doing on this site besides trying to persuade people to see things your way? Much like you just did above. You are wrong I do not speak in tongues but I do care for people who need God in their lives. I do care enough to point out things that I believe are false to protect those that I believe are deceived, even if that means people will reject me. I know I can trust God's word and anything that is in conflict with it is a lie. I am not going to attack you personally. In fact from reading your posts I think that you are a nice person. I think that about most people on this site. I think that many have misjudged my motives.

In Jesus Love'

Alethia

Alethia:

These forums are meant to discuss different faiths and find their commonalities and their differences. These forums are NOT meant for self-appointed, fervant Christians to convert the rest of the world to YOUR kind of faith.

You are the kind of Christian that scares me. Everyone who opposes your interpretation of the Bible becomes a target. You remind me of a snake in the grass twisting and turning every which way to attest to YOUR one true God.

When I try to imagine you, I see you in a revival tent, speaking in tongues, your eyes rolling to the back of your head, convulsing and shrieking Halleluja.

Not a pretty picture.

ALETHIA I answered your question on the public pope question board where you also posted this question.

I am still waiting for answers to these questions.

Why is it illegal to preach conversion to Christianity in the Muslim world? Why would I be arrested or murdered if I publicly preached conversion to Christianity in Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc? Is Islam a religion of peace that has been "high jacked" by all these Islamic nations?

In Jesus, Love and Truth,

Alethia

"For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thornbushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush. The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks" (Luke 6:43-45).

Your testament to those horrors in Lebanon are part of the reason we are talking today. But terribly, as in Darfur, these atrocities are still occurring. Part of these discussions should be in trying to determine how we can stop it now, and from happening in the future.

I was a Christian in Lebanon.

The Christians in Lebanon always had problems with the Moslems, but we never thought our neighbors would turn on us. That situation was aggravated by the influx of the Palestinians coming from Jordan after King Hussein kicked them out in Black September. That's what tipped the scale in Lebanon. Not only had Moslems become the majority but they now also felt empowered by the presence of the Palestinians and Yasser Arafat wanting to attack the Christians, take over Lebanon and use it as a base from which to attack Israel.

When the Moslems and Palestinians declared Jihad on the Christians in 1975 we didn't even know what that word meant. We had taken them into our country, allowed them to study side by side with us, in our schools and universities. We gave them jobs, shared with them our way of life. We didn't realize the depth of their hatred to us as infidels. They looked at us as the enemy not as neighbors, friends, employers and colleagues.

A lot of Muslims pored in from other Muslim countries like Iran -- the founder and supporter of Hezbollah, one of the leading terrorist organizations in the world today. They came from Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Jordan and Egypt. The Lebanese civil war was not between the Lebanese, it was a holly war declared on the Christians by the Muslims of the Middle East.

They started massacring the Christians, city after city. Horrific events the western media seldom reported. One of the most ghastly acts was the massacre in the Christian City of Damour where thousands of Christians were slaughtered like sheep. The Muslims would enter a bomb shelter, see a mother and a father hiding with a little baby. They would tie one leg of the baby to the mother and one leg to the father and pulled the parents apart splitting the child in half. A close friend of mine was mentally disturbed because they made her slaughter her own son in a chair. They tied her to a chair, tied a knife to her hand and holding her hand forcing her to cut her own son’s throat. They would urinate and defecate on the altars of churches using the pages of the bible as toilet paper. They did so many things I don't need to go into any more detail. You get the picture.

Sometimes it is not what you say, it is how you say it. You can be in the most right position available, but if you disrespect others as you make your point, you have lost that position because others will not listen. Many things championed by the far right in our nation has been carried by the moderate Christians, not because it was correct from a human or Christian standpoint, but because it was presented as "Christian", and no one offered a different opinion that took the time to explain the differences to those moderate Christians, much the same way your arguments are so defensive. The belief or non-belief in religion are exactly that--beliefs. The wonderful thing about America is that we can respect both. It is time to listen and think before we act. It is time to be respectful. If you cannot do that, then you may as well be talking to yourself, because that is the only person who will be listening.

My faith is in the constitution of the United States of America and the republic that it is and can be, one nation under Nature's God with liberty and justice for all. The set, all includes absolutely everyone.

Pardon me while I search for common ground to discuss our differences, myself and those of my faith, at least 42,000,000 of us here and multiples more world wide with those of great faith who have condemned us to hell. May I point out that hell is a lie and we have no common ground there.

Is the plan to leave us out? Well, after all we have been condemned to hell by the religious authorities. Can't seem to find them, religious authorities in my Bible, the Constitution. Wait until they amend it? No thanks.

Maybe a larger idea is find some common ground between the faiths to find a way to live together. So far, all you have done is argue points, written by men, influenced by the times they lived in, a long time ago. We all bleed red. In everthing we discuss, we need to remember that.

Do you see me tearing down anybody'd beliefs?
The point of this site is to discuss our faiths.

This is going to sound rude; however, there is no way around it. Reading the post’s from Alethia, Victoria, and Yest Me throughout the panelist’s responses reminds me of an old Star Trek episode with Frank Gorshin and Lou Antonio. They were humanoids from one planet, both vertically half black and white, but each colored opposite of one another. They had been fighting for ages over that subtle difference, eventually finding out they were the last two left remaining, and they returned to their planet-conclusion unknown, but both were male. Alethia and Victoria can be Frank and Lou, and Yest Me can be a late addition, colored black and white, but horizontal, not vertical. Continually fighting with no resolution because not one will give an inch, not one respects the other enough to allow time to listen and maybe learn. It is what is happening now here on Earth on a much larger scale, and the conclusion can be extremely damaging for all of us. It is time to begin being respectful enough to listen, to help, to work together, to believe what we wish, but to understand that to be allowed that luxury, we must also respect the beliefs of others. And it needs to be soon.

Alethia

Did God, the son of god create eternal life or take advantage of an expectation people already had in more life after this one?

All supernatural beings are gods while their sons, Roman, Greek, Japanese, etc emperors shall be known as Gods. Of course the sons of Gods are themselves Gods provided they are the firsborn sons. Does the term "firstborn son" ring any bells? Go to http://www.biblegateway.com and search on firstborn son.

;

Dear Victoria,

Did you see the post below under Returning Bronze Horses to Istanbul Might Heal Wounds: John Dominic Crossan? This is waht I am talking about. Ahmed lived in a real Muslim country.

Ahmed:

plain and simple fact: you are in danger of your life if you preach conversion to Christianity in any predominantly Muslim nation. beleive me I converted to Christianity from Islam in the Middle East, I had to live in secret for two years till I brought my family to America.

In Christ,

Ahmed

Posted December 4, 2006 9:20 PM

Fascinating... Has anybody bothered following the link 'sadistic slaughter in the bible' in the original post? It leads to an article by Steve Waldman on his belief.net, entitled 'In Defence of Pat Robertson'. Here are some quotes from that article:
- 'Pat Robertson and others are right about Islam being a violent religion.'
- 'Islam is not only violent in its current practice but at its core-which is to say in its sacred text, the Qur'an.'

Lovely. I dream of a world without middle age superstitions (religions), where taking care of our children, and our planet would be more important than arguing about the number of angels that can stand on a pin head. As long as there will be people on this planet for whom the NEXT life is more important than this one, things will go very, very wrong.

"...But the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"
The grace of Jesus restored the woman caught in adultery.

In Jesus Love,

Alethia

Victoria:

You're making the assumption that prostitution is a sin. Where did you get that idea? Could it be the Bible? If it is then using the Bible to verify your assumption makes my point.

Good art causes it's viewers to see many different things. The more the better the art. The Bible is excellent art for I alone with my limited resources can identify at least 1,500 different versions of what it says.

Of course the Bible is self verifying making all those many versions correct. Then there's one more correct interpretation, Moses sold his soul and like Daniel Webster says, reaped a bounty of earthly wealth for it. How are the Moses followers doing in the earthly wealth area?

In order for that process to realize it's zenith all religions must get together. They must select a single king to lead them. I suspect the holy father, the pope is a candidate. His speach that is the topic here was a campaign address. Their common cause is the harvesting of souls for the Devil and their common ground is the garnering of the wealth of earth. Their problem is agreeing on the division of the spoils. This is the common thread of all kingdoms, the king fairly distributing the loot among the nobility.

Americans should be alarmed by what's happening. They are dividers and not uniters, NOT "holding these triths to be self evident, all men are created equal" including Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Joseph Smith, homosexuals, women, prostitutes, and themselves, just to mention a few equals.

Oh. Interpretation, 1501 of the Bible is at http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul

O i forgot- the point is that she paid the debt on earth for her sin so it is erased and she is free from judgement. we try to clean up our sins on earth so we wont have to face them on judgement day. thats why we have to be scrupulously conscientious in this life- there is no magic get into paradise free card. it can only be earned by the self. no proxy ultimate and total personal responsibility

Alethia picked a poor choice of examples, but i think ianswered the question, which was initially- where was the mercy? Because the woman was so adamant about pursuing her earthly judgement- she paid the price and the sin is forgiven, that is the point. The woman in Jesus(ata) story, being a prostitute, anybody's guess where the men were is as good as mine. 5 chances were given to the woman to escape her punishment- she chose to choose her redemption. The wages of sin are death.(bible)

Thanks Yest Me, but, I already have Jesus' love and peace in my life.

In Jesus Righteousness,

Alethia

I guess I need to clarify. I did not say I believed in a God or not. I said essentially that "If there is a God", that as long as I tried to help, and respected my fellow human beings that any "God" would let me pass. I respect all people unless they give me personal reasons not to. I care none whether they have beliefs or not, only that through respect for one another, we can ultimately bridge any differences, any narrowness of thought. Incidentally, I have been arguing for both the Constitution and the Decleration of Independence for the last few years upon the realization that the "Founding Fathers" were deists for freedom, not religion.

one more time
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/babble.html

Sure enough, I didn't get that awful address correct. Try:
http:www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/babble.html

Now you can see why I prefer hoax buster. I can spell it most of the time.

Dear Alethia

I hope I can type this site address correctly. Speaking of hypocrisy.

http://www.user.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/babble.html

For those that don't understand the Bible can be interpreted any way one pleases, give it a click. This is a UK web site so don't blame me.

Alethia, I hope you find the love and truth you seek no matter where you find it, Jesus is as good as any just not the only place. Shakesphere did a fairly good job for some seekers, just as an example.

Dear Yest Me

"Where is the man in either scenario, Jesus or Muhammad version, woman found fornicating and subject to stoning?"

I agree with you Yest Me. Jesus also knew the hypocrisy of the crowd. That is why He said, "Let He who is without sin cast the first stone.

In Jesus' Love and Truth,

Alethia

Dear Muslims,

Why is it illegal to preach conversion to Christianity in the Muslim world? Why would I be arrested or murdered if I publicly preached conversion to Christianity in Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc? Is Islam a religion of peace that has been "high jacked" by all these Islamic nations?

In Jesus, Love and Truth,

Alethia

"For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thornbushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush. The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks" (Matthew 6:43-45).

If you'd like to read the beginning history of rendering to Caesar and God it's on the web at http://www.hoax-buster.org/gov101

No one is guaranteed entry into the kingdom of God. There's a bunch of us who aren't even interested in going there. We believe, have faith that hell is just the gun in a robbery calculated to make people render.

The one who dies the deepest in debt wins.

There is no guarantee of entry into the kingdom of God for God reserves the right to decide who shall and who shall not enter into His kingdom.

No matter how much one gives it's insufficient to guarantee entry into God's kingdom. The reverse is not true of course. Those who give too little shall be cast into the pit of fire known as hell.

The best we can do is give all we got, and of course borrow. Stealing is also allowed along with prostitution as long as one is sorry for one's sins and gives all those ill gotten gains to God. It's how much one renders to God that counts.

But how much is relative to how much others render. "The last shall go first while the firts shall go last." The first one to stop rendering shall go to the end of the line. "Many are called but few are chosen." There's going to be a cut in the line and the "first" to stop rendering will absolutely go to hell. But not even the one at the head of the line, the "last" to stop rendering is guaranteed entry into the kingdom of God.

The best we can do is render every penny we can get our hands on no matter how we get them to God. God is nowhere to be found so we'll have to render it to God's representatives. Pat Robertson is accepting pledges right now, I think, last week for sure. Play safe and send him all your money and anyone else's you can get by any means possible. "We must error on the side of safety."

Jesus said to the rich man, "sell all your earthly posession and give to the poor, (minister?)."

It's real simple. The more you borrow and render to God's representatives the more likely you'll make the cut in Pharaoh's UNDERWORLD. But only the one who dies the deepest in debt shall be at the head of the line.

Good borrowing and may the Good Lord, Amenophis IV bless and keep you until we meet again in the sweet bye and bye. Now commence to rendering.

Matthew 5:11 ¶ Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Jesus is Lord !

At last, common ground for a meeting of Christian and Muslim minds. What to do with fornicating women?

The only difference in what Jesus said and Muhammad is the difference in, to stone or not to stone. That is the question. But it's not the answer.

The answer is, the man shall be held harmless, not even noticed. Well, unless women can fornicate by themselves. Isn't there another term for making love to one's self?

Where is the man in either scenario, Jesus or Muhammad version, woman found fornicating and subject to stoning?

Victoria,

Do you know if your sins are forgiven? Do you know that you are going to be accepted by God? If so on what basis? Do you believe that a good judge should punish lawbreakers? Have you broken God's law?

In Jesus Love and Truth,

Alethia

O O I DEFINITELY NEED TO EXPAND- I WAS IN NO WAY DISPARAGING JEWISH WOMEN- PERHAPS THE REASON THAT IT WAS A "JEWISH" "PROSTITUTE" IS TO FURTHER REINFORCE THE IDEA AMONG MUSLIMS THAT THESE ARE TWO CATEGORIES THAT SOME MIGHT FEEL (AND THIS IS NOT SCRIPTURE, ONLY ALLAH KNOWS WHO DOES OR DOES NOT ENTER PARADISE) BUT IN ANTICIPATION THAT SOME MAY THINK SUCH A THING- OF PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE NOT THE FIRST CANDIDATES FOR PARADISE. TO STRETCH THE HEART SO THAT WE UNDERSTAND HOW ALL INCLUSIVE IS THE MERCY OF ALLAH, FAR BEYOND OUR OWN PETTY LITTLE JUDGEMENTS- PEACE

VERITAS- You have inadvertantly stumbled upon one of my major dissatisfactions with christianity and deep soul felt satisfactions with Islam.

As to Jesus(ata) administering God's judgement in Israel- that is somewhat of a new one on me. I am positive that Jesus(ata) was in submission to the willof his father, and never arrogated himself to be in God's stead as judge--(judge not lest ye be judged) bt thats another issue.
Perhaps you have scripture to back that up. Besides post acts please. I was never pauline.
That's strange that you're not aware of grace in Islam- one of te differences is that muslims are born into a state of original grace-

the thing about the belief that jesus died redeeming the incredible mountain of the sins of humanity ad infinitum is that it removes the tools necessary for one to ever take personal responsibility for ones actions.
One can glibly gloss over ones own sins, never fully atoning for or being conscious of them, bwecause you simply shove them onto the overburdened shoulders of Jesus(ata).

The difference in Islam is that one is born in a state of original grace, and our entire life is spent in working (by taking personal responsiblity for and shouldering the burdens of- consequences of- our own sins) to return to that state of original purity-grace. ONe of the fatalist and doomed to failure philosophies of christianity is exactly that- there is only a state of original sin to return to- conferring a helplessness babylike irresponsible mentality. You can be completely compassionate and kind and still be a child.
I was juxtaposing the accusation from the anonymous crowd to the personal woman in question- not going into any depth which was aside to the point.

As to God demanding payment for sins- He is all-merciful in Islam- so this is not a point any muslim would agree with at all. I think this is perhaps a christians' PERCEPTION of the philosophy. We dont kknow if God demands payment. We are taiught that God's mercy overcomes his anger.

There was a jewish prostitute who came upon a dog dying of thirst, and she gave him some water. For this one act of compassion when she died she went to paradise. See how easy it is in Islam?
We live our lives with the scrutinizing self critique and attitude that we will be held accountable for every single sin- no intercessor will come and rescue us- we are ultimately responsible and must live with the utmost conscientiousness at all times. Absolute awareness which governs our actions.
In this I think Islam is superior to christianity.
PLEASE UNDERSTAND THESE ARE MY OPINIONS AND NOT MEANT TO IMPLY OR DEVALUE ANYONE ELSES BELIEF SYSTEM.
THANKS FOR YOUR THOUGHTFUL RESPONSE.
PEACE

I grew up in small southern W. Va. town in the late forties .My dad didn`t own a car so we went to church with whom ever we could catch a ride with.There was eight families living in the hollow,three owned cars,one attended the baptist church, one attended the holiness church and the other one didn`t attend church on a regular basis ,but often went on special occasions.I usually got to go when ever I wanted to,because most of the kids didn`t want to go.With no seat belts it was easy to fit one little girl in.The churches were so differant,but I loved them both. The Church of God(holiness)so loud and so loving.No sir, you didn`t doze off during their services.The shouting, the singing the hugs and handshakes you could see joy on every face.How could you not love it. The Baptist was more reserved and organized.I always thought it was because they were mostly teachers and the people who owned the stores in town and thats how rich people acted.I knew who most of the people were and went to school with the kids.The pastor was my forth grade teacher,and that was a plus.Yes, I loved them both, dearly. Some Sundays I`d go to a quiet peaceful morning service to a loud joyus footwashing that night.Didn`t matter to me, as long as I was going to church saying my prayers and doing what the Bible tells me to do and I knew they all read from the same Bible.If only things could be so simple. I don`t know why I happen to be present during an argument between my neighbors,but I was .The only thing I really remember was them telling each other they were going to hell.The lady from the holiness church told the baptist she would go to hell for shaving her legs,the baptist said the Bible says cleanliness is next to godliness and your house is filthy.Silly huh!Not to a ten year old girl listening to the good christian women who gives her rides to church.I went home a scared confused little girl that day and I`ve been searching for answers ever sense.My mom assured me she was not going to burn in hell for shaving her legs and my room would pass Gods inspection. I guess that was the first time I witnessed someone passing judgement on some one else and condeming them to hell.I drifted in and out of church the rest of my life,going long periods without attending at all. My son recently invited me to his church.I think I have found a home now.I don`t agree with all the pastor says ,but I dont feel I have to.Once again as I did in childhood,I will go to church,say my prayers, follow the Bible as best as I can,and when my pastor says if you`re not on the same road I`m on you`re lost,I`ll follow, but I`ll reserve judgement on people following a different road until we reach the end and then let God decide who enters.I`ve met a lot of good people along the way.Who am I to say I am more deserving because I took a different road than they did.

JEFF

What makes you think God guards the gap between this life and the next, that it's God that lets people through? God doesn't guard any gaps here does She?

Those who say there is a guard, roadblock between here and the next life are using a hoax for their information. Well, Muhammad did have a conversation with God or angels or something. Did Muhammad do alright for himself after that? If you'll believe Muhammad why not believe anyone? Yau're not interested in owning a nice bridge are you?

JEFF REED:

We have written our own book. It has everything people need to live together in peace. It's called the Constitution of the United States of America. The inagural document, the pre incorporation agreement signed off on by the 13 original states but not honored is the Declaration of Independance.

The DI identifies our God to be Nature's God. It's not much to say She's Lady Liberty. And nothing at all to notice how powerful She is, Katrina, Andrew, Mt St Helena, just for example of her power.

One does not pray to or sacrifice to our God. It's OK but people will laugh at you. She is not represented by any human. She's a big girl that can take care of herself, does not need jihad warriors, Christian soldiers or anyone to get what She wants, a sharp difference between Her and those wimpy Gods that can't blow their own noses, must have people do all the work for them.

Thought I'd mention this so you'll know that our God is for real. This is one nation under God and under attack by religion both here and abroad. United we stand alright. But religion is dividing us and threatens to destroy the world. Who will get WMDs first, Muslims or Christians? No, this is not a Christian country. Christians do not have WMDs yet just like the Muslims, I hope.

I don't know about common ground for religions to settle their differences. Those who honor other's rights under the Constitution don't need more ground than, in my opinion of course. And our God has blessed us with Her abundance. If you don't keep a weather eye out She might just blow you away.

When I die (and if there is a God)as long as I have been respectful of, and tried to help my fellow human beings--regardless of what I believe, any God should let me pass.

Alethia has been banned from the site

Alethia's friend

Victoria,

Jesus came and gave the New Covenant. In the Old Covenant Israel was charged with the responsibility of administering God's judgment to those who broke God's law within Israel. In the New Covenant the church is not to administer God's judgment. Jesus was not doing away with the law but was instead extending grace. In other words He was withholding the judgment this woman deserved. He did not say, go and keep being an adulteress. He said, "Go and sin no more." He could do this because He as judge of the universe was going to fulfill the death penalty this woman deserved to pay by dying on the cross for her. This concept is seen in the movie the Lion, Witch, and the Wardrobe. In the movie Aslan the Lion dies in Edmond’s place. The big difference here is that in the movie it seems that Aslan is satisfying a rule made with the witch. In the Bible Jesus who is God become man is satisfying the justice of God on behalf of sinners like the woman caught in adultery. Grace seems to be missing in Islam. God is just but He is also gracious to those who are repentant. He cannot just forgive them without paying the debt because that would be unjust. Therefore, Jesus paid the debt Himself. So you see it had nothing to do with the crowd. He was simply showing them that they too deserved God's judgment. We all do, that is why we need Jesus. His sacrifice makes it so His justice will be fulfilled and we can have forgiveness at the same time. When you stand before God will you be good enough to go to heaven? If not you will have to pay the debt yourself and you do not have enough righteousness to pay it yourself. You too need the sacrifice of Jesus because like me you are not perfect.

We need to remember that both the Bible and the Koran were written by human men. Maybe it is time to begin writing our own, by all of us.

Yest me- you seem to have a genuine compassion for displaced populations. I dont have any links or websites to reccomend, but you may be interested in looking at the ethnic population breakdown of israel, say 1900, before the influx of the zionists. (All jews are not zionists and not all zionists are jews)

For instance the United Nations has ordered 65 resolutions against israel and 0ZERO resolutions against palestine. Once you start to research, you will be more than shocked.
peace

Alethia- Jesus(ata) was a jew and followed jewish law. His message was love and forgiveness and the highest of forgivenesses. Judaic law states stoning of an adulteress. Jesus(ata) nowhere encouraged forgoing or disobeying God's law. He appealled to the higher nature and consciences of the CROWD who accused the prostitute. In doing so , he did not say disobey God's law- but appealed to the crowd. THEY decided not to stone her. The stoning is for the protection of society, as a dterrent.
Would I stand by and watch a stoning passively? NEVER! I was imprisoned for not turning my eyes away from a cop who was beating someone. I was repeatedly ordered to stop looking. Til i was arrested. I wll always AS A MUSLIM demand mercy over retribution as is my right because retribution is allowed on the lowest lwevel, but forgiveness is the best behavior.

Now you are missing the deepest and subtler mercies at work here. You simply are not looking for it but rather looking to find bad, which you seem to think you have.

The Prophet(pbuh) told the woman 5 TIMES TO GO BACK!!!! Did ou somehow miss that in your eagerness to rush to bad judgement?

THE WOMAN WAS ACCUSING HERSELF THROUGH HER OWN DEEP CONSCIENCE AND DESIRE NOT TO TAKE THIS SIN TO HER DEATH!
It was not a crowd that Mohammed(pbuh) could implore to be merciful to. It was the woman herself who demanded judgement.

Do you expect Mohammed(pbuh) to disobey the law of ALLAH?
Do you think Jesus(ata) disobeyed the laws of ALLAH?

Im not talking about preaching on the Sabbath-

There are no instances of such deeply lived conscience in the NT, and I would even speculate that you are rather proving the deepening of the conscience and personal responsibility for one's own soul in Islam.

I will never slander Jesus(ata).
Please, I implore you, stop slandering Mohammed(pbuh).

Isn't it obvious to you that this negative attack is not winning one single person to your philosophy? You are only galvanizing like minded christians to hate.

And that is not a Christ-like activity.
Peace and post on - by responding to any slander I only draw more attention to something best left forgotten.

Yest me
Killing creates more killing,the families of the 250 marines must hate muslims for what happened to their loved ones.The same thing goes for the families killed in iraq by the usa and its allies.This will go on and on as you see you will NOT defeat people who are willing to die for what they believe.

Hello Friends,

The above is an example of someone murdering Muslims which is wrong. Just so you know that I do know that things were done to Muslims that were not right.

However, that does not excuse the violence of Muhammad and his commands to slay infidels (Sura 9:5). Jesus commanded His people to turn the other cheek.

Love in Christ,

Alethia

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 57:

Narrated Anas:
The Prophet sent seventy men from the tribe of Bani Salim to the tribe of Bani Amir. When they reached there, my maternal uncle said to them, "I will go ahead of you, and if they allow me to convey the message of Allah's Apostle (it will be all right); otherwise you will remain close to me." So he went ahead of them and the pagans granted him security But while he was reporting the message of the Prophet , they beckoned to one of their men who stabbed him to death. My maternal uncle said, "Allah is Greater! By the Lord of the Kaba, I am successful." After that they attached the rest of the party and killed them all except a lame man who went up to the top of the mountain.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.261

Steve, glad to see I'm not alone.

The common thread of all that "killing" is the expectation of what happens to the dead. It's very old yet just a blink in time back to where people didn't hurt each other.

The Roman emperors had nightmare where their murder victims came back. That's common to all murdrers. Using the Romans as just one example of many, our historians report them as civilized. There's even a variety of war known as civil. And the historian carelessly leaves out their expectation for those they just had to kill, enslave, what have you. Hell is a necessity for them. Not where they are going but where their victims must go else they will have to pay for their crime.

I like the event of 1982 when a jihad warrior drove a truck loaded with HE into the Marine barracks, Lebanon. He killed himself and about 250 of them. If those Marines didn't go to hell and neither did he, then just where did they go altogether like? And, what did the Marines do to him when they got there? Criminals have had that problem ever since there's been criminals.

Hell is the outgroth of criminals, killers solving the problem of what to do with their dead victims. If it's 250 of Uncle Sam's Misguided Children then hell won't accept them anyhow. They're the ones that guard the streets of heaven, according to their pep song anyhow.

The key to understanding religion is to understand hell. The key to understanding hell is it's benefits for criminals. But then that makes the clergy look like crooks. Perplexing.

Maybe, "one nation under God" IS NOT ONE NATION UNDER RELIGION would solve the problem for us? Perhaps "upholding and defending" the first amendment would work to do that. "No law shall establish religion" not even the tax laws. And then they could start teaching history as it happened in the public schools and state supported institutions of higher learning. They could begin that with a course like, "The Bible is a Proved Hoax."

YEST ME
I ALSO HAVE SENIOR MOMENTS,AS WHAT HAPPENED TO THE INDIANS IS NOW HAPPENING TO THE PALESTINIANS AND AS WE KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO THE INDIANS WAS WRONG WHY DOES THE WORLD TURN THEIR BACKS ON THE KILLINGS THAT GO ON DAY IN AND DAY OUT IN GAZA,WEST BANK,LEBANON.

Oops. Senior moment, PEACE.

Steve NY

We are forever trying to right the wrongs of the past with more wrongs in the present. Some Indians are reaping the harvest of guilt felt by us today while others are quietly integrting. The ones that suffered the condemnation to hell are dead and gone, murdered.

Have you seen the "Little Big Horn" analysis at http://www.hoax-buster.org It's at the bottom part of page 1.

In a village of 10,000, on any given day a woman is giving birth, an old one is dying, there are sick children, all the things that happen to larger groups of people are taking place. Can we picture what the calvary gallopping into the village, guns blazing does to ordinary life? Evidently not.

The word is PESACE.

yest me
palestinians who live in israel have no rights the jews have picked and choose what rights they are allowed as long as they live in israel.palestinians live in slave like conditions in gaza and the west bank.indians in the united states have more rights than me and you.they should be able to demand more than what they have.in ny the shinnecock indians are being harrassed by the county,state and govt.the reason they are successful.they want to build a casino on their land in the hamptons the rich have told the county,state, govt they don't want the casino.indians have rights palestinians have NONE.

CAN THERE BE PEACE?

One of the characteristics of the great anti Christ is he will advocate peace. Those who believe, have faith in the coming of him, the anti Christ must also advocate peace else he cannot come and in turn Jesus must also stay away.

The logic is sound. Make war and never peace for that prevents the end of the world. Don't use nuclear weapons or you will end the world without Jesus coming.

Another logical step that is politically out in space is the scattering of the Jews again which will also prevent the end of the world. Free tickets to Las Vegas with extended all expense paid for unending vacations should turn the trick with no bloodshed at all.

The pope has to lay dead in Jerusalem. We can rename the city and disband the office of pope. That's just two more ways to prevent the end of the world.

What! You want the world to end? Make peace. It's absolutely necessary.