"On Faith" panelist Starhawk is a prominent voice in modern Wiccan spirituality and cofounder of Reclaiming (www.reclaiming.org), an activist branch of modern Pagan religion. She is the author or coauthor of ten books, including The Spiral Dance: A Rebirth of the Ancient Religion of the Great Goddess (1979) --considered an essential text for the Neo-Pagan movement--and the novel The Fifth Sacred Thing (1993) . Her works have been translated into Spanish, French, German, Danish, Dutch, Italian, Portuguese, Polish, Greek, Japanese, and Burmese. Many of Starhawk's political essays were collected into her book Webs of Power: Notes from the Global Uprising . Her newest book is The Earth Path: Grounding Your Spirit in the Rhythms of Nature . Starhawk has also recorded several tapes and CDs; most recently Wicca for Beginners (2002), Wiccan Rituals and Blessings (2003), and a four-CD set Earth Magic (2006), all produced by Sounds True. She consulted on and contributed to three films known as the Women's Spirituality series, directed by Donna Read for the National Film Board of Canada: Goddess Remembered, The Burning Times, and Full Circle . Committed to bringing the techniques and creative power of spirituality to political activism, Starhawk travels internationally teaching magic, the tools of ritual, and the skills of activism.
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Starhawk
Co-founder, Reclaiming
"On Faith" panelist Starhawk is a prominent voice in modern Wiccan spirituality and cofounder of Reclaiming (www.reclaiming.org), an activist branch of modern Pagan religion. She is the author or coauthor of ten books, including The Spiral Dance: A Rebirth of the Ancient Religion of the Great Goddess (1979) --considered an essential text for the Neo-Pagan movement--and the novel The Fifth Sacred Thing (1993) .
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And, I poked back in on the other thread. I really just think the person who got all arrogant and condemnatory was just confused somehow, despite that not giving anyone the right to say such things. :)
Wake up, everybody! Starhawk has an essay out on the latest On Faith question.
Paganplace - just posted a reply on Melissa's blog. I didn't sail in firing full broadsides, but definitely fired a warning shot across their bows. They know where I stand.
Ah, Arminius, it's just the usual stupidity, I suppose.
I really do find it infuriating just how much stupidity some Christians expect us to indulge while making us deal with real hardships and uncertainties so they can get their jollies pretending they know what's what.
Even if those ideas involve ludicrous assertions that the only *possible* reason people could have similar and valid ideas in our heads is out of some conspiracy to undercut their bigotries on the Internet. :)
Just took a look at your postings on Melissa's blog. This could be interesting, if you pursue it. Since I am a liberal Episcopalian, and since we have a gay bishop, I might could help. Or at least stir things up.
Get this: apparently now I was secretly Melissa Etheredge's wife all along. Rationale being, apparently, 'Cain't be more than one or two of them tree huggin' lezbeens out there. Obviously, you're all in cahoots.' :)
Yep, it's all off, now, my dear one gets home, I say, "You never sing to me," she'll be, "You never bought my records," And on it'll go. Might take a while to work out who we are. We all look the same, yaknow. ;)
Guess we can hang out on this thread till WaPo comes up with some more interesting topics (for non-Christians, anyway.)
*pausing to relax a bit.*
Counting on the goodness in people for some things. Have a good thought for me.
One thing about ending up being a couple of minorities at the same time, ...I don't think even Irish girls are really prepared for what that means.
I also think that those who seem obsessed with some manner in which being queer or Pagan seems to 'oppress' them so badly, have any idea just how much they're willing to put others through just cause they don't want to feel comfortable about it. Feel like I want to go poke in on Melissa Etheredge's thread and try not to be too caustic at certain types. :)
*sigh.* Anyway. There we are. :) My Gods didn't say it'd be easy, ...Just I wonder if some people realize just how hard they're willing to make things for others over some abstract idea.
Strikes me that a lot of Christians didn't have even 'Cathartic' experiences, this year, Arminius, so much as using the occasion where they say the 'world was saved from sin,' to come online and damn people as sinners for Jesus. :)
I need to talk to you...can you email me your phone # again. I promise this time to put it in my address book...
I am sorry I missed your Home Blessing. I was sending all kinds of love and peace vibes, hope you caught them.
Check out the PSG map... http://wisteria. org/map.htm
they have changed things around. I knew they would have to, it has grown hugely, building new roads, camping slots and putting in posts where we know what camp site we are in.
We are going to have to limit the stuff we take I am afraid. We are going to have a full load. Which with gas being as it is,it's going to be an expensive trip. We have reservations for a motel in Huntington(last long hot shower and sleeping in a semi comfy bed).
Thanks, your post made me smile. I love Spring too.
I have recovered. As I explained to Lep elsewhere, every so often I need a drastic catharsis. I got it, for sure. Now I am good to go - and I think you are too. And also Paganplace.
I hope both of you are well. Arminius, I was worried about you. I hope that your Easter was blessed and you were surrounded by love and peace.
Paganplace, Arminius is right...you are loved. Be well sister.
I am back on both feet (kinda), the sun is shineing..I saw hawks this morning calling and circling above, butterflies winged by, roses are in bud and one of my peach trees has over a dozen baby peaches. Is this not a wonderous world?
I am happy...spring is here, life is blooming...
terra
Glad you're doing OK, you sounded a bit overwrought, there, ...I realize a lot of this stuff is intense to you, though that's something that film apparently really played on for a lot of people... it was kind of meant to, maybe in crass ways, but I'll leave that to your judgment, as I've never seen it.
It's that those images are all over this culture, ...too often used as a sort of bludgeon, and that dream was the first thing I thought of when you seemed overwhelmed, ...I don't think that was the message you're really supposed to take from it. As long as you go gentle on yourself, where appropriate, I suppose.
And, blessed be, Terra. Pain's often overrated, but sometimes it makes things simple: if you can't find renewal with a cup of coffee and your feet up, when can you? :)
Well, and the flowers. It's a little early up here for those, but I've got some seeds from our ceremonies. :)
Arminius,
Oh I am doing fine...everything feeling a little better.
I am fixing part of Easter/Eostre dinner...my Daughter likes my cooking. She is Christian, but I like to make a big dinner where Christains and Pagans break bread together. Baked Ham and Jambalya...and Pineapple upside down cake (my student has never had it) and pineapple is the symbol of hospitality.
I think one of the best things about living in the south is that we are watching things bloom when many are still facing snow and cold.
Flowers are very important, and the living symbol of renewal, both for Pagans and Christians. No Christian Easter service is complete unless attended by a great host of flowers.
You are a remarkable person, dear Lady. I love you.
I'm up. I recover. But I warned you all that this is a terribly emotional time for me.
I am not into the guilt, I don't worry about the hell thing, if I know that I sin I confess and get up and try to do better rather than wallowing, and I don't buy into the rapture thing. I am a very unusual Christian, I suppose.
Your dream is disturbing - but I think you had the right reaction. Us Celts do fight back.
Ya gotta remember, this week is 'real' to me. Maybe, probably, in a transcendent sense, certainly in a spiritual one. This predates the movie. It is just as if I were there. That make it real to me. So I'm nuts, so what. It is a beautiful and gentle madness.
Yesterday afternoon I was pulling weeds and turned too quick and landed on my right side...damaging my knee, shoulder and spraining my foot...So as with all good intentions of mice and men, I had to change my plans for Spring Rite.
I was supposed to get up early in the morn and meet Kore with the dawn. But instead I laid with proped up foot and a cup of coffee in bed.
But my student came in bearing a gift, a large bowl of Wisteria flowers from the blooming bush in the yard, and small clusters of yellow roses (from the arch over the side walk)and a representative of every bit of blooming plant here. A gift that I will not forget.
I do not understand the view of remembering the pain of Jesus, and seeming to forget the gift of renewal. The Passion of Christ was brutal and ugly...I could not watch it. But even as a Pagan the story of the rebirth was the story that I could take joy in.
To me the renewal is the gift of flowers...the purple wisteria, the clusters of yellow thornless roses, The flowers from the privit and the little star flowers from the fields, the St. Johnswort and the young leaves of the bergamount, mint and lemon balm...so sweet and fresh that I cried over the kindness of the gift from a young woman, and the Great Mother who gives us such abundance. It is also my own renewal of a new day...
There can not be spring without winter.
Everything lost is found again,
in a new form, in a new way,
Everything hurt is healed again
in a new life, in a new day.
Arminius, Paganplace and all...a blessed renewal to you all.
"It is real to me, very real. The pain is actually physical. This is my path. MY path, not yours. Our paths meet on the top of that mountain. I'll meet you there."
Doing OK, Arminius?
Pain is *there,* yes, but it's not 'real.'
I know a fair bit about pain. It's *there,* but it is not the reality. What that movie is intended to do is confuse the visual center of your brain that can't tell the difference between what we see and what we do... This is part of us, Why we love to watch sports we aren't playing, why we delight in air guitar...
Also why we feel bad ..or the other things we're led to feel, when we watch movie-suffering.
Real? How real.
Not as real as your heart or the eyes I'd be looking at you with if we were in the same room right now.
This is not you. None of this shadowplay.
I had a real bad dream recently, you know.
The Christians were crucifying me on one of their crosses. Never actually had a railroad spike driven through my wrist, but apparently I can imagine.
Lucid dreamer that I am, I let em do it, and picked my moment to start busting moves, and tear the spike out to kick some butt with, after the fashion of a true Gael, I suppose.
Cried really hard.
Pain.
It's there.
It's not real.
You are real, in any reality worth worrying about.
And if your Jesus is gonna save you from any Hells, you f-rellin' remember that.
Understand?
Hells are people thinking pain is more real than they are.
"Damn that anti-Semite, Gibson. How could he produce such a thing that would tear me apart?"
Cause he's torn-apart.
Poor soul has, frankly, become all the characters he's played.... Each one a suffering man trying to recover a barely-seen Goddess-like feminine figure... All the way back to Mad Max. Same character, same drama. He does it well, but somewhere some religious (ahem) spank took over.
The 'Passion plays' of medieval Europe had everything to do with enshrining and redirecting certain pain.
People were taught to identify their own pain with Jesus, and that the Jews were the ones who brought that pain.
Bad reaction to a long-standing soul-wound that the man's celebrity mixed all up with his sense of identity: if big stars are allowed one.
*That* dude needs some quality time with either some Gnostics or someone like me.
All that's on you is getting over certain romances of pain. Cause it's messed-up.
You know, though, Arminius, speaking of mountaintops and all, (I suppose the Pagan heart's more partial to fields and valleys and forests, but be that as it may,) ...Had some good company, today, and I was thinking a bit what kind of Good Friday you might be having.
I mean, you obviously aren't the sort who thinks your God is so small that he's all that fussed what people believe, or any of that, but, you do realize, right, that as ranklesome as Christian triumphalism and accusation gets to be in places like this, that, ...and I think I speak for many of my people... that any goodness your Jesus brought into this world is duly-respected?
Something we intend to carry forth, too. My path didn't lead me into any of his churches, ...guess you have some idea how that couldn't possibly be healthy for me, personally, anyway.
I wanted you to know that that doesn't mean I don't think there's a spirit you have access to which can be a friend of humanity, and that's taken as given.
In my world, books and 'sins of the fathers' don't make you the bad guy. Doesn't really enter into the equation unless someone's acting out the worse part of the karma.
Heck, not everything I learned in Catholic school from yer man there was bad, though it was often in spite of the dogmas and all.
Guess what worries me is you might be taking on that Christian guilt. I hope not, though. I don't think yer Jesus really intended to start his own cargo cult of himself. Well, maybe he did, but if so, he's become something else.
Personally, I think it's a great strength of Wicca, at least for someone like me: A very fallible 'founder.' :) No 'rock of ages,' Unca Jerry, but, Lady, did he have *stones.* "I'm bringing the Old Gods back, agla! "
Lord and Lady were like, (I like to imagine,) "OK, spellboy. Want some?" :)
There's so much talk from Christians, 'We are the light of the world,' ...and somehow that got all messed up into claiming, 'Everything else is dark, and we aren't, whatever we do.'
If Christians were Pagans, it'd read more like, "There's a light in the world, and we're becoming it, like we become a tree or a bird or an animal or a wind or any of those other things in our funny names,"
Kinda think a lot of things Jesus is supposed to said are probably better taken in that spirit, and that's the kind of thing I see in the better sorts of Christians.
A lot of folks are kind of wound up about brand names of goodness and how to go about buying em.
You know better, right?
Too many Christians' idea of 'Be like Jesus' translates to 'You oughtta be damned and
crucified, kneel to this instead.'
That's kind of to do with that darkness I was talking about.
I don't think I have to tell you, though, there's a friend of humanity in there, too, as messed-up as things have gotten, right?
No, Christian history wasn't exactly a sudden light upon our benighted Pagan ...benightedness, but neither is it all necessarily shameful. It's what you make of it, and I for one respect any will to turn it to the good.
Frankly, a patron God I won't name told me to, and showed me just why. ;)
It's a big universe, and I wouldn't want you to feel overly-bad about the nonsense in it. These things take time. :)
I thought there were no more tears left, but they kept coming.
Watched 'The Passion of the Christ' again.
It broke me. Again.
Damn that anti-Semite, Gibson. How could he produce such a thing that would tear me apart?
It is real to me, very real. The pain is actually physical. This is my path. MY path, not yours. Our paths meet on the top of that mountain. I'll meet you there.
"One difference I have noted between Christians and Pagans: you guys tend to get along fine, regardless of differences, while we Christians can all to often be at each others' throats. In total violation of the Gospels, but I am guilty of it too."
Ah, well, we have our, err, lively discussions, ourselves, usually when we forget or haven't learned yet that Pagan religion really doesn't have much need for squabbles about Ultimate Powers Via Dogma and all. I think it really helps that we aren't based on notions that if someone believes some minutia 'wrong' they're gonna burn forever, or maybe bring the wrath of the Gods down on everyone.
Some of the newbies'll sort of bring these assumptions to their finding of the Old Ways, but fortunately, the ways themselves teach better... easy way or hard way, it's kind of built-in.
*laugh* I remember the first time I met an actual Wiccan elder, Gods, did I lay into *him,* with all the punk-rock fury I could muster, till I realized I was really shouting one childish thing, whatever the topic was. "Where were *you.*"
We've got a lot of strong personalities, ...there's bound to be sparks from time to time, but getting along is a big ....and inherent, part of the curriculum, if you asked me.
But, just occasionally you see the true stupidity of what we call a 'Witch War.' :) The way my lifepath has gone, I've often found myself in the role of a mediator, ...I try to express my impatience patiently. :)
There's no real reason for that sort of thing, except, I say, 'For Practice.' :)
Much is made of our magic, maybe really too much. But I think the first thing it really does is to teach the ethics and discernment we believe in applying to everything, directly and on the fast track. :)
No prob with the RC thing. We Episcopalians know how to poke fun at ourselves; we are known in the South as 'Whiskeypalians', because wherever you find four Episcopalians, you will always find a fifth....
Yes, it is especially true that Episcopalians tend to be in the upper middle class. I am an exception, alas.
One difference I have noted between Christians and Pagans: you guys tend to get along fine, regardless of differences, while we Christians can all to often be at each others' throats. In total violation of the Gospels, but I am guilty of it too.
Oh, right, my apologies on forgetting you're Episcopalian, however I managed that one. :)
It's funny, I don't generally think of Christians as generally being financially-unable to get to some service or other, Christian churches do seem to be everywhere, sorry to hear. But, there's always solitary practices. Unlike a number of Pagans, I'm not by inclination a solitary, but that option's always there.
"And no, we don't believe in transubstantiation."
I've often wondered, kind of idly, really, if Pagans would be considered to... It seems that whole division in Christianity is based on separations we just don't make in the first place. :)
We sort of operate in what you might call a 'mythic consciousness' in our ceremonies, you see... in some ways, that transubstantiation question can seem kind of moot. :)
I am at home, not for health reasons but for financial ones. I am having my own Holy Week, and my spirit is busy.
I'm not RC, but my Episcopal church of course shares a lot with them. Or not. To us, the pope is simply the Bishop of Rome.
It is, as you are aware, no accident that Easter is celebrated in the spring. The Pagan influence at work, and more power to it. Easter any other time of the year simply would not work. The renewal, by the way, is ongoing, within each Christian. And by associating Easter with spring, we celebrate spring too.
By the way, the word 'celebration' is very important. That is exactly what my church does, and it can be profoundly moving. The offering of bread and wine is not called the Celebration of the Holy Eucharist for a whim.
It's still quite cold up here, but one can feel the first stirrings of the awakening land for the season, ...under lots and lots of snow. :)
I don't mind the cold, so much, but apparently it's no good for some of what ails me, ...one good thing about this move to the South, I suppose, though the summers will get me in other ways. :)
So, this is that day when the Catholics are praying for our conversion and the like.
I always found the Catholic ceremonies of this day pretty creepy on a few counts, but there are also some similarities to Wiccan ways, in that there's a seasonal celebration of sorts, with a dying and rebirthing king of sorts.
The seasonal aspect and ties are one place where what we do isn't so different, even if perhaps it's seen quite differently: you could say the Pagan view isn't one of commemorating something that happened just once. :) (It's part of why the Pagan customs some fundamentalists love to alternately hate and try to claim nonbelievers are trying to suppress have continued alongside Christianity, if often in ill-understood ways. :)
Hope you're having a good holiday, though, Arminius, (Figure you might be busy today, of course.)
Oh, and Arminius, there's a litany of joys, too, even if I get crabby at times. :) It's... just been a little intense at times. :)
I think it's on all of us to be sure our religions and societies reflect the very best in humanity, and the human spirit. We have so much, and I think in a lot of ways, we aren't used to dealing with abundance after so many thousands of years of uncertainties and struggles.
And... I almost managed to completely-forget something I promised to do, today. I'll be back later. :)
Although I am in religious mourning right now, I welcome this day, with its explosion of flowers and the promise of the coming of the soft green of Spring's first leaves. Glad I made it for another one!
I don't know, even after several readings, just how to reply to your post, which I can only call a litany of sorrows. I damn near wept. I can say this: let us not shuffle in sorrow, but walk proudly in this grand and beautiful creation.
This is my Holy Week, so I am even more emotional than ever. The passion of Jesus is very, very real to me, almost as if I had been there. Maybe I was. And the joy of Easter is also very real, and extremely emotional, to me.
This is my path, only mine. It includes the Way of the Cross. Your path is different. But.... I firmly believe that we will meet at the top of that mountain.
Arminius, Good Morning and Happy Ostara! (first day of Spring)
There were many types of slavery...some like what we had in America, some like in Greece or Rome.
There is a story about Slavery and the Goddess Diana in Italy.
The Golden Bough, by Sir James Frazer opens up with:
The still glassy lake that sleeps
Beneath Aricia's trees-
Those trees in whose dim shadow
The ghastly priest doth reign,
The priest who slew the slayer,
And shall himself be slain.
There was a little woodland lake called Nemi, Diana's Mirror, as it was called by the ancients.The shrine of Diana was there...no temple only the grove and sanctuary of trees...
The Priest of this place a run away slave, King of the Wood (Rex Nemorensis)...who must kill the one before him. This rule I do not believe there was another tradition like it any where else...but there is a story about this...
The book is excellent and if you can find it, worth having. I believe it should be a must in every Pagan's book shelf, or those interested in history.
Thanks for the links. The one about the Brehon Laws was especially fascinating. An echo of that is in Scotland - there was never a King of Scotland - he was King of Scots. The Scots were well aware of the difference. Also, the Germanic tribes that fought Caesar and numerous other emperors were known for the freedom of their women.
You are correct about slavery in Rome. They could even buy their freedom, and then their children would be citizens. The most valuable slaves were the literate ones. What a contrast with our horrible American history.
Yes, the church has an abominable record with slavery. Patrick was an exception in hating it.
Slavery did die out in Europe about the 12th century. This fueled technological development, since it was now respectable to be a miner or a blacksmith. Instead of just getting more slaves to do more work, people starting figuring out how to do it better by themselves. By the 14th century, Europe was much further advanced in industry than Rome ever was. A slaveholding society has a lot of trouble making any lasting technological advances - the slave owners don't want to get their hands dirty.
As far as slavery and Christianity goes...It was the Pagans in Rome that gave rights to Slaves:
The Pagan Roman Republic took many steps to alleviate the lot of slaves. In 82 BCE murder of slaves were forbidden by the Cornelian Law. Around 30 BCE the Petronian Law forbade the sending of slaves to fight in the amphitheater. The Stoic teaches Seneca (c 5 BCE-65 CE), while he still had influence over the insane emperor, Nero (37-68 CE) managed to induce him to pass a law to forbade the cruel treatment of slaves. The Emperor Hadrian (76-138), an Epicurean, revived the laws prohibiting the murder of slaves and of sending them to the amphitheater. He also suppressed the inhuman practice of housing slaves underground. Hadrian was also known to have banished a wealthy Roman lady, named Umbricia, for cruelty to her slaves. By the second century slaves had already acquired the right, under certain circumstances, to bring legal action against their masters. The Emperor Antoninus Pius (86-161) issued an imperial decree which gives freedom to a slave running from a cruel master; on the condition that the runaway slave must embrace a statue of the emperor before he is considered a free man.
The voices of conscience raised against slavery was also Pagan. The Pagan Dio Chrysostom, who was the greatest orator of his age, delivered a speech around AD100 in a public hall in the Forum of Rome where he explicitly and at great length condemned slavery as unjust.
The first Christian Roman Emperor, Constantine (c274-337) actually undid most of the humane laws to alleviate the position of slaves laid down by his pagan predecessors. He permitted parents to sell their children into slavery and allowed finders of abandoned children to bring them up as slaves. He also issued a decree which stipulates the death penalty for any Christian woman who had sexual intercourse with a slave; that the slave would also be put to death is a foregone conclusion.
The Roman pontiffs made many remarks about slaves and slavery. none of which helped to abolish the practice. Pope Leo The Great (d.461) ruled that no slaves can become priests because their "vileness" will "pollute" the sacred order. Pope Gregory the Great (c540-604), who was the richest slave owner in sixth century Europe, forbade the marriage of Christian women to slaves. In the eleventh century, Pope Benedict VIII (d1024), in an effort to stop priests from having sex, decreed that all children produced by these unlawful coupling should be made slaves. Pope Paul III (1468-1549) decreed that all Englishmen who supported the errant King, Henry VIII should be reduced to slavery. In the fifteenth century, the papacy gave the king of Portugal permission top conquer "heathen" countries and reduced their population in "everlasting slavery."
The churches and the monasteries, far from being a haven for escaping slaves, actually owned slaves. When ancient slavery ended, the monasteries were among the last to give up their slaves. Ancient slavery ended in the twelfth century, or more correctly evolved into serfdom, not because of any concerted Christian action but for purely economic reasons. It became cheaper for the wealthy to have serfs working their land and feeding themselves than to own dependent slaves.
"Do you guys know where I can DL Gwydion's songs? Thanks!"
I believe Google will turn those up, if not a place where you can actually buy the CDs, which is worth doing. :) (I've always wanted to do a blues version of 'The Raven is Calling' with standup bass, myself. :) Somehow I don't think the dude who dared call himself Penderrwenn would mind. :) )
"I sense a bitterness in you. God knows you have the right to it. I have my own, but cannot claim to have what you must have."
Doesn't do to deny it, but it's certainly not the biggest thing in my life, thank the Lord and Bright Lady, ...As and that's good enough to be getting on with, I say. :)
No illusions it's not a soul-wound on our people, though, what I mention.
A big one, too often filled with all manner of nasty things that seem convenient, I'm afraid. Doesn't do to deny *that,* either.
Personally, I tend to think of it like, (suborning of chieftains for short-term inter-tribal interest aside,) Christianity came in and threatened and promised a lot of things that just didn't fit in our world. Being Irish, we triedd to crak each other in the crown to try and *make* em fit, but it was ultimately ...just more empty violence, something that cost more than it ever gave, compared to what 'we' might have done in our own good time.
It's not like Christian mildness wasn't something probably much-needed among the Bronze Age bravado, but the price was too high, the sacrifice to some God of Judgment too long... the divorce from the real understanding of the generational conflicts... too costly in blood and tears, and too lost among the struggle against invading oppressors appealing to any love for the cross.
Too often we've been tools in the internecine fights of Christians seeking power, I'd say.
Even our own dogged senses of loyalty turned against us.
Too many not even giving a crap what they're fighting for, as long as there's a fight. No names, no honor, no justice, no hope for peace, just feud. Blood for blood and stick a crucifix on it.
How long in the 20th century did we have to wait for someone to have the mythic sense or happenstance to sign a peace accord on 'Good Friday?'
Erin... Eriu... Is a Goddess... One who asks.... demands, really, one thing of any who come to Ireland from beyond the ninth wave: Become Irish, and be strangers no more, as it was for the Sons Of Mil and even before, even for the Tuatha de Danaan....
But the Church still considers us barely-civilized, barely Christianized, given to visions and fancies and drink and all as we are, 'Oh, father, show me the error of my ways, and if your peepee won't convince me, put me in a Magdalene house, wouldya please?'
Slavery bothers you? Bitterness bothers you? I'll tell you about both, and that's just Boston.
You, I'll wager, were never beaten, accosted, or locked in the dark for seeing what we've always seen. Being what we've always been. Never had to turn aside calls for help from boys who were being molested cause you were afraid of being called a d*** or something. Never raped by someone who got it in their head, (From *Gods* know where) that their *penis* could 'fix' you from your 'sin.'
*Yes,* it's bitter, Arminius. It can't not be. But such bitter things are not the summmation of our lives, or our heritage, or ourselves as the humans we are now.
Not even of your religion. But you gotta *make* it so. No more free rides.
Just in general.
Some people been telling the Irish for a long time that 'suffering is good for the soul,' and I'm here to tell you that's only gonna wash for a certain number of generations more. A soul gets over that. In time, anyway.
Time that no dogma can stop us from having.
'Too long a sacrifice makes a stone of the heart,'
But I'm learning to speak the language of stones, as goes a fave song of mine goes, and Lady demands naught of sacrifice, anyway, as the Charge says. :)
It's us. It's always been us. Us.
What do you want to do now, kinsman? Maybe we can shuffle along with my bitternesses. :)
Hey, I like curmudgeons, too! I haven't seen Isaac in a while, since I stopped attending Free Spirit Gathering. Like I said, I disagree with some of his positions - I just take what I like and leave the rest.
I've been slowly trying to download MP3s of various cassettes that I have that have gotten damaged over the years. Besides, I don't think that I have a cassette player anymore. Do you guys know where I can DL Gwydion's songs? Thanks!
sasha,
I agree...
We can go outside and look up see the moon and feel the breeze..hear the trees talking to us. Those behind bars have only their sameness each day, maybe for years. The real hell.
My HP serves some prisoners as a chaplian. He has to do it through the mail but long letters and lessons have helped get some of these men through their time. Having someone to count on and a way to live in balance, responcibility and connection gives them a structure and a view of living.
Ok, though, 'truce.' Didn't realize his was a fight. :)
Friend. :)
I do have a little reason to be resentful how the churchmen turned certain of our beliefs to ...things I experienced... More recently than historians like to tell you, actually. But you can't live while taking certain things too personally.
If I still had this pretty little book of Kells, I'd like to send it to you, actually. I begin to think it's gone, though, it was nothing to be hoarding, anyway, if the words don't mean much to you. If I find it hiding while I pack, I'll tell you. :)
(And please forgive the rampant typoes: I moved my laptop around recently, and there's all manner of junk in my keyboard which has worked loose under the keys, and I'm chasing it around with Scotch tape. :) )
Anyway, the darkness Christianity brought to Irish folkways is something that kind of gets to me personally... That very intertwining of the natural and spiritual and human worlds so evident in the art you love also turned to greeting manifestations of our spiritual heritage in fearful ways that lead to abuse and atrocity.
Just cause you believe in your Bible doesn't mean stuff doesn't happen, stuff which people can be taught to believe is 'deviltry' to be expunged, instead of a manifestation of our ancestral connections to the land and spirit.
This is one of the things which modern Irish kind of cough politely and attribute to 'superstition,' ...till, of course, something weird happens and families are torn apart.
Our tribal culture wasn't perfect, and not to be over-romanticised, but, frankly, yes, it did turn the Irish view of the spirit world dark. Cause that kind of intimate daily connection just doesn't quite fit the Bible's view.
So it is with many tribal cultures that you can read Church documents instructing missionaries to appropriate, subvert, and eventually destroy.
In that funny Irish Pagan way, Arminius, I think you have the right to your beliefs, but, nothing's forgotten.
I believe you're a man of good character because you have a will to do better. That's still on you to do, but I will help in any way I can.
No illusions, though.
History's there.
Not to mention everyone crapping themselves about ghosts. Seriously.
"Eire was not benighted, except maybe for slavery, when Patrick landed on its shore"
Frankly, I'd be more inclined to say the Irish didn't know the *meaning* of slavery till he did. As I said, unfree peoples had enumerated rights and social mobility, whereas when Christian establishments came and turned the chiefs to hereditary partilineal inheritance rather than tanistry, that's when the slavery we love to hate *did* start, but that's the various lenses of history.
As far as I'm concerned, though, my ancestors welcomed monastic Christians once, and that's also something I'll stand for. Not like I never *was* one, myself.
The point is, there was a dignity and justice there which is too-readily dismissed by the Christian riumphalism of today... much of the utter corruption and destruction of the tribal ways and the rights of the people is glossed over with notions that Christianity 'brought light' to our benighted, stupid, tribal ancestors, whose laws, nonetheless, were the first things the invaders stole.
One last Parthian shot: please read Cahill's book, and then come back and tell me what you think. The iron boot of the Vatican came long after Patrick.
Eire was not benighted, except maybe for slavery, when Patrick landed on its shore.
Give the dude a bit of credit. One man, against an entire land. That guy had guts.
At the time, Eire was total anarchy, everybody fighting everybody else, in the grand tradition of the Celts. Did Patrick fix that? Well, no.... they continued to fight. Something about the Irish! Yes, there was a 'High King' at Tara, but he had not much power. The only king that I know of who managed to pull that land of poets and fighters together was Brian Boru. He got killed, at a great age, maybe by traitors, at Clontarf, where the Vikings were roundly defeated in 1014 by the raging Irish.
What a country! My father, born in Belfast, toured the south of Eire as a young man. He said that it was the most beautiful land on the planet.
"The emphasis here is on AGREE to disagree. We are not at bad odds here. I just have to step back, maybe gather some facts, etc.
We are still there."
Sure.
It's not always about 'facts,' such as we've been given to have, though. Also, perspectives. Bringing 'sin' and 'hells' and fears to our people, though, was no more a kindness that it ever was for those the Christians roll over tribal peoples with, bringinga their problems and 'solutions' thereto with them.
It's not our fault if we 'saved civilzation' while catching the very worst of it in the process.
I mean, ou realize, Arminius, that before the Christians and later the English came, that the Irish were way ahead of the curve on this one thing: Even high kings were accountable to the law. Not to mention their geasa and other things nations and humans deal with.
Someone else had to come along and say, with force of power, 'There's another standard, arbitrated by some books and kings and power from the East that no one can read, even a lot of copyists.'
"For a time, I will leave it at the point that we agree to disagree."
Ok. :) I'm not sure on just what points this may be (Sorry, there, Net went down for a bit) But...I on't find disagreement so inherently disagreeable, as do some. :)
All Comments (346)
OK, OK, I'm up, I'm up! :)
And, I poked back in on the other thread. I really just think the person who got all arrogant and condemnatory was just confused somehow, despite that not giving anyone the right to say such things. :)
March 26, 2008 12:46 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2008 12:46
Wake up, everybody! Starhawk has an essay out on the latest On Faith question.
Paganplace - just posted a reply on Melissa's blog. I didn't sail in firing full broadsides, but definitely fired a warning shot across their bows. They know where I stand.
Arminius
March 26, 2008 9:44 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2008 09:44
Ah, Arminius, it's just the usual stupidity, I suppose.
I really do find it infuriating just how much stupidity some Christians expect us to indulge while making us deal with real hardships and uncertainties so they can get their jollies pretending they know what's what.
Even if those ideas involve ludicrous assertions that the only *possible* reason people could have similar and valid ideas in our heads is out of some conspiracy to undercut their bigotries on the Internet. :)
Feh. :)
March 25, 2008 4:39 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 25, 2008 16:39
Paganplace,
Just took a look at your postings on Melissa's blog. This could be interesting, if you pursue it. Since I am a liberal Episcopalian, and since we have a gay bishop, I might could help. Or at least stir things up.
Arminius
March 25, 2008 3:59 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 25, 2008 15:59
Ha. That was actually pretty therapeutic.
Get this: apparently now I was secretly Melissa Etheredge's wife all along. Rationale being, apparently, 'Cain't be more than one or two of them tree huggin' lezbeens out there. Obviously, you're all in cahoots.' :)
Yep, it's all off, now, my dear one gets home, I say, "You never sing to me," she'll be, "You never bought my records," And on it'll go. Might take a while to work out who we are. We all look the same, yaknow. ;)
March 25, 2008 3:49 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 25, 2008 15:49
*waving* Glad you're up, both of you.
Guess we can hang out on this thread till WaPo comes up with some more interesting topics (for non-Christians, anyway.)
*pausing to relax a bit.*
Counting on the goodness in people for some things. Have a good thought for me.
One thing about ending up being a couple of minorities at the same time, ...I don't think even Irish girls are really prepared for what that means.
I also think that those who seem obsessed with some manner in which being queer or Pagan seems to 'oppress' them so badly, have any idea just how much they're willing to put others through just cause they don't want to feel comfortable about it. Feel like I want to go poke in on Melissa Etheredge's thread and try not to be too caustic at certain types. :)
*sigh.* Anyway. There we are. :) My Gods didn't say it'd be easy, ...Just I wonder if some people realize just how hard they're willing to make things for others over some abstract idea.
Strikes me that a lot of Christians didn't have even 'Cathartic' experiences, this year, Arminius, so much as using the occasion where they say the 'world was saved from sin,' to come online and damn people as sinners for Jesus. :)
Slight vent. :)
March 25, 2008 2:57 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 25, 2008 14:57
Butterfly,
Hiya!
I need to talk to you...can you email me your phone # again. I promise this time to put it in my address book...
I am sorry I missed your Home Blessing. I was sending all kinds of love and peace vibes, hope you caught them.
Check out the PSG map...
http://wisteria. org/map.htm
they have changed things around. I knew they would have to, it has grown hugely, building new roads, camping slots and putting in posts where we know what camp site we are in.
We are going to have to limit the stuff we take I am afraid. We are going to have a full load. Which with gas being as it is,it's going to be an expensive trip. We have reservations for a motel in Huntington(last long hot shower and sleeping in a semi comfy bed).
Hugs and blessings!
terra
March 25, 2008 1:19 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 25, 2008 13:19
It's spring, all right.
My lemon, satsuma, and blood orange trees aer all covered in blooms, and yesterday, I spotted a bee with his face buried in one of the lemon blossoms.
March 25, 2008 12:34 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 25, 2008 12:34
Terra,
Thanks, your post made me smile. I love Spring too.
I have recovered. As I explained to Lep elsewhere, every so often I need a drastic catharsis. I got it, for sure. Now I am good to go - and I think you are too. And also Paganplace.
Keep in touch, friends.
Arminius
March 24, 2008 9:13 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 24, 2008 21:13
Paganplace and Arminius,
I hope both of you are well. Arminius, I was worried about you. I hope that your Easter was blessed and you were surrounded by love and peace.
Paganplace, Arminius is right...you are loved. Be well sister.
I am back on both feet (kinda), the sun is shineing..I saw hawks this morning calling and circling above, butterflies winged by, roses are in bud and one of my peach trees has over a dozen baby peaches. Is this not a wonderous world?
I am happy...spring is here, life is blooming...
terra
March 24, 2008 6:50 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 24, 2008 18:50
Oh, Happy Easter, btw, Arminius, it's that day, isn't it. :)
March 23, 2008 5:26 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 23, 2008 17:26
Hi, Arminius. :)
Glad you're doing OK, you sounded a bit overwrought, there, ...I realize a lot of this stuff is intense to you, though that's something that film apparently really played on for a lot of people... it was kind of meant to, maybe in crass ways, but I'll leave that to your judgment, as I've never seen it.
It's that those images are all over this culture, ...too often used as a sort of bludgeon, and that dream was the first thing I thought of when you seemed overwhelmed, ...I don't think that was the message you're really supposed to take from it. As long as you go gentle on yourself, where appropriate, I suppose.
And, blessed be, Terra. Pain's often overrated, but sometimes it makes things simple: if you can't find renewal with a cup of coffee and your feet up, when can you? :)
Well, and the flowers. It's a little early up here for those, but I've got some seeds from our ceremonies. :)
March 23, 2008 12:54 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 23, 2008 00:54
Arminius,
Oh I am doing fine...everything feeling a little better.
I am fixing part of Easter/Eostre dinner...my Daughter likes my cooking. She is Christian, but I like to make a big dinner where Christains and Pagans break bread together. Baked Ham and Jambalya...and Pineapple upside down cake (my student has never had it) and pineapple is the symbol of hospitality.
I think one of the best things about living in the south is that we are watching things bloom when many are still facing snow and cold.
terra
March 22, 2008 5:02 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 22, 2008 17:02
Terra,
Flowers are very important, and the living symbol of renewal, both for Pagans and Christians. No Christian Easter service is complete unless attended by a great host of flowers.
Take care of yourself. We need you.
Arminius
March 22, 2008 3:59 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 22, 2008 15:59
Paganplace,
You are a remarkable person, dear Lady. I love you.
I'm up. I recover. But I warned you all that this is a terribly emotional time for me.
I am not into the guilt, I don't worry about the hell thing, if I know that I sin I confess and get up and try to do better rather than wallowing, and I don't buy into the rapture thing. I am a very unusual Christian, I suppose.
Your dream is disturbing - but I think you had the right reaction. Us Celts do fight back.
Ya gotta remember, this week is 'real' to me. Maybe, probably, in a transcendent sense, certainly in a spiritual one. This predates the movie. It is just as if I were there. That make it real to me. So I'm nuts, so what. It is a beautiful and gentle madness.
Arminius
March 22, 2008 3:37 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 22, 2008 15:37
Yesterday afternoon I was pulling weeds and turned too quick and landed on my right side...damaging my knee, shoulder and spraining my foot...So as with all good intentions of mice and men, I had to change my plans for Spring Rite.
I was supposed to get up early in the morn and meet Kore with the dawn. But instead I laid with proped up foot and a cup of coffee in bed.
But my student came in bearing a gift, a large bowl of Wisteria flowers from the blooming bush in the yard, and small clusters of yellow roses (from the arch over the side walk)and a representative of every bit of blooming plant here. A gift that I will not forget.
I do not understand the view of remembering the pain of Jesus, and seeming to forget the gift of renewal. The Passion of Christ was brutal and ugly...I could not watch it. But even as a Pagan the story of the rebirth was the story that I could take joy in.
To me the renewal is the gift of flowers...the purple wisteria, the clusters of yellow thornless roses, The flowers from the privit and the little star flowers from the fields, the St. Johnswort and the young leaves of the bergamount, mint and lemon balm...so sweet and fresh that I cried over the kindness of the gift from a young woman, and the Great Mother who gives us such abundance. It is also my own renewal of a new day...
There can not be spring without winter.
Everything lost is found again,
in a new form, in a new way,
Everything hurt is healed again
in a new life, in a new day.
Arminius, Paganplace and all...a blessed renewal to you all.
terra
March 22, 2008 1:38 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 22, 2008 01:38
"It is real to me, very real. The pain is actually physical. This is my path. MY path, not yours. Our paths meet on the top of that mountain. I'll meet you there."
Doing OK, Arminius?
Pain is *there,* yes, but it's not 'real.'
I know a fair bit about pain. It's *there,* but it is not the reality. What that movie is intended to do is confuse the visual center of your brain that can't tell the difference between what we see and what we do... This is part of us, Why we love to watch sports we aren't playing, why we delight in air guitar...
Also why we feel bad ..or the other things we're led to feel, when we watch movie-suffering.
Real? How real.
Not as real as your heart or the eyes I'd be looking at you with if we were in the same room right now.
This is not you. None of this shadowplay.
I had a real bad dream recently, you know.
The Christians were crucifying me on one of their crosses. Never actually had a railroad spike driven through my wrist, but apparently I can imagine.
Lucid dreamer that I am, I let em do it, and picked my moment to start busting moves, and tear the spike out to kick some butt with, after the fashion of a true Gael, I suppose.
Cried really hard.
Pain.
It's there.
It's not real.
You are real, in any reality worth worrying about.
And if your Jesus is gonna save you from any Hells, you f-rellin' remember that.
Understand?
Hells are people thinking pain is more real than they are.
You *get up.* Dammit.
Capiche?
March 21, 2008 7:41 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 21, 2008 19:41
Or, I guess, the Goddess could turn him into an ass, a la Apuleius, and see what he learns from it, but he already kinda jumped the gun, there. :)
March 21, 2008 6:13 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 21, 2008 18:13
"Damn that anti-Semite, Gibson. How could he produce such a thing that would tear me apart?"
Cause he's torn-apart.
Poor soul has, frankly, become all the characters he's played.... Each one a suffering man trying to recover a barely-seen Goddess-like feminine figure... All the way back to Mad Max. Same character, same drama. He does it well, but somewhere some religious (ahem) spank took over.
The 'Passion plays' of medieval Europe had everything to do with enshrining and redirecting certain pain.
People were taught to identify their own pain with Jesus, and that the Jews were the ones who brought that pain.
Bad reaction to a long-standing soul-wound that the man's celebrity mixed all up with his sense of identity: if big stars are allowed one.
*That* dude needs some quality time with either some Gnostics or someone like me.
All that's on you is getting over certain romances of pain. Cause it's messed-up.
March 21, 2008 6:08 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 21, 2008 18:08
You know, though, Arminius, speaking of mountaintops and all, (I suppose the Pagan heart's more partial to fields and valleys and forests, but be that as it may,) ...Had some good company, today, and I was thinking a bit what kind of Good Friday you might be having.
I mean, you obviously aren't the sort who thinks your God is so small that he's all that fussed what people believe, or any of that, but, you do realize, right, that as ranklesome as Christian triumphalism and accusation gets to be in places like this, that, ...and I think I speak for many of my people... that any goodness your Jesus brought into this world is duly-respected?
Something we intend to carry forth, too. My path didn't lead me into any of his churches, ...guess you have some idea how that couldn't possibly be healthy for me, personally, anyway.
I wanted you to know that that doesn't mean I don't think there's a spirit you have access to which can be a friend of humanity, and that's taken as given.
In my world, books and 'sins of the fathers' don't make you the bad guy. Doesn't really enter into the equation unless someone's acting out the worse part of the karma.
Heck, not everything I learned in Catholic school from yer man there was bad, though it was often in spite of the dogmas and all.
Guess what worries me is you might be taking on that Christian guilt. I hope not, though. I don't think yer Jesus really intended to start his own cargo cult of himself. Well, maybe he did, but if so, he's become something else.
Personally, I think it's a great strength of Wicca, at least for someone like me: A very fallible 'founder.' :) No 'rock of ages,' Unca Jerry, but, Lady, did he have *stones.* "I'm bringing the Old Gods back, agla! "
Lord and Lady were like, (I like to imagine,) "OK, spellboy. Want some?" :)
There's so much talk from Christians, 'We are the light of the world,' ...and somehow that got all messed up into claiming, 'Everything else is dark, and we aren't, whatever we do.'
If Christians were Pagans, it'd read more like, "There's a light in the world, and we're becoming it, like we become a tree or a bird or an animal or a wind or any of those other things in our funny names,"
Kinda think a lot of things Jesus is supposed to said are probably better taken in that spirit, and that's the kind of thing I see in the better sorts of Christians.
A lot of folks are kind of wound up about brand names of goodness and how to go about buying em.
You know better, right?
Too many Christians' idea of 'Be like Jesus' translates to 'You oughtta be damned and
crucified, kneel to this instead.'
That's kind of to do with that darkness I was talking about.
I don't think I have to tell you, though, there's a friend of humanity in there, too, as messed-up as things have gotten, right?
No, Christian history wasn't exactly a sudden light upon our benighted Pagan ...benightedness, but neither is it all necessarily shameful. It's what you make of it, and I for one respect any will to turn it to the good.
Frankly, a patron God I won't name told me to, and showed me just why. ;)
It's a big universe, and I wouldn't want you to feel overly-bad about the nonsense in it. These things take time. :)
OK? :)
March 21, 2008 5:57 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 21, 2008 17:57
My Friends,
I thought there were no more tears left, but they kept coming.
Watched 'The Passion of the Christ' again.
It broke me. Again.
Damn that anti-Semite, Gibson. How could he produce such a thing that would tear me apart?
It is real to me, very real. The pain is actually physical. This is my path. MY path, not yours. Our paths meet on the top of that mountain. I'll meet you there.
Arminius
March 21, 2008 5:47 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 21, 2008 17:47
"One difference I have noted between Christians and Pagans: you guys tend to get along fine, regardless of differences, while we Christians can all to often be at each others' throats. In total violation of the Gospels, but I am guilty of it too."
Ah, well, we have our, err, lively discussions, ourselves, usually when we forget or haven't learned yet that Pagan religion really doesn't have much need for squabbles about Ultimate Powers Via Dogma and all. I think it really helps that we aren't based on notions that if someone believes some minutia 'wrong' they're gonna burn forever, or maybe bring the wrath of the Gods down on everyone.
Some of the newbies'll sort of bring these assumptions to their finding of the Old Ways, but fortunately, the ways themselves teach better... easy way or hard way, it's kind of built-in.
*laugh* I remember the first time I met an actual Wiccan elder, Gods, did I lay into *him,* with all the punk-rock fury I could muster, till I realized I was really shouting one childish thing, whatever the topic was. "Where were *you.*"
We've got a lot of strong personalities, ...there's bound to be sparks from time to time, but getting along is a big ....and inherent, part of the curriculum, if you asked me.
But, just occasionally you see the true stupidity of what we call a 'Witch War.' :) The way my lifepath has gone, I've often found myself in the role of a mediator, ...I try to express my impatience patiently. :)
There's no real reason for that sort of thing, except, I say, 'For Practice.' :)
Much is made of our magic, maybe really too much. But I think the first thing it really does is to teach the ethics and discernment we believe in applying to everything, directly and on the fast track. :)
March 21, 2008 1:45 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 21, 2008 13:45
Paganplace,
No prob with the RC thing. We Episcopalians know how to poke fun at ourselves; we are known in the South as 'Whiskeypalians', because wherever you find four Episcopalians, you will always find a fifth....
Yes, it is especially true that Episcopalians tend to be in the upper middle class. I am an exception, alas.
One difference I have noted between Christians and Pagans: you guys tend to get along fine, regardless of differences, while we Christians can all to often be at each others' throats. In total violation of the Gospels, but I am guilty of it too.
Arminius
March 21, 2008 1:02 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 21, 2008 13:02
Oh, right, my apologies on forgetting you're Episcopalian, however I managed that one. :)
It's funny, I don't generally think of Christians as generally being financially-unable to get to some service or other, Christian churches do seem to be everywhere, sorry to hear. But, there's always solitary practices. Unlike a number of Pagans, I'm not by inclination a solitary, but that option's always there.
"And no, we don't believe in transubstantiation."
I've often wondered, kind of idly, really, if Pagans would be considered to... It seems that whole division in Christianity is based on separations we just don't make in the first place. :)
We sort of operate in what you might call a 'mythic consciousness' in our ceremonies, you see... in some ways, that transubstantiation question can seem kind of moot. :)
March 21, 2008 12:33 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 21, 2008 12:33
Hi, Paganplace,
I am at home, not for health reasons but for financial ones. I am having my own Holy Week, and my spirit is busy.
I'm not RC, but my Episcopal church of course shares a lot with them. Or not. To us, the pope is simply the Bishop of Rome.
It is, as you are aware, no accident that Easter is celebrated in the spring. The Pagan influence at work, and more power to it. Easter any other time of the year simply would not work. The renewal, by the way, is ongoing, within each Christian. And by associating Easter with spring, we celebrate spring too.
By the way, the word 'celebration' is very important. That is exactly what my church does, and it can be profoundly moving. The offering of bread and wine is not called the Celebration of the Holy Eucharist for a whim.
And no, we don't believe in transubstantiation.
Arminius
March 21, 2008 12:04 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 21, 2008 12:04
Interesting that the holidays coincide this year.
It's still quite cold up here, but one can feel the first stirrings of the awakening land for the season, ...under lots and lots of snow. :)
I don't mind the cold, so much, but apparently it's no good for some of what ails me, ...one good thing about this move to the South, I suppose, though the summers will get me in other ways. :)
So, this is that day when the Catholics are praying for our conversion and the like.
I always found the Catholic ceremonies of this day pretty creepy on a few counts, but there are also some similarities to Wiccan ways, in that there's a seasonal celebration of sorts, with a dying and rebirthing king of sorts.
The seasonal aspect and ties are one place where what we do isn't so different, even if perhaps it's seen quite differently: you could say the Pagan view isn't one of commemorating something that happened just once. :) (It's part of why the Pagan customs some fundamentalists love to alternately hate and try to claim nonbelievers are trying to suppress have continued alongside Christianity, if often in ill-understood ways. :)
Hope you're having a good holiday, though, Arminius, (Figure you might be busy today, of course.)
March 21, 2008 11:29 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 21, 2008 11:29
Oh, and Arminius, there's a litany of joys, too, even if I get crabby at times. :) It's... just been a little intense at times. :)
I think it's on all of us to be sure our religions and societies reflect the very best in humanity, and the human spirit. We have so much, and I think in a lot of ways, we aren't used to dealing with abundance after so many thousands of years of uncertainties and struggles.
And... I almost managed to completely-forget something I promised to do, today. I'll be back later. :)
March 20, 2008 6:12 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 20, 2008 18:12
Hi, Friends,
Well, then, Happy Ostara!
Although I am in religious mourning right now, I welcome this day, with its explosion of flowers and the promise of the coming of the soft green of Spring's first leaves. Glad I made it for another one!
Arminius
March 20, 2008 6:06 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 20, 2008 18:06
Hey, Happy Ostara! I hadn't noticed the date coming up, ....I'll be celebrating with some friends this weekend.
*flop* Oof, did I have some extra energy to burn off yesterday. :) Caught up with me, that. :)
Now, the question, what am I going to cook. :)
It's always involved when comparing past societies, I suppose, really. It's not as clear-cut as sometimes we're led to believe, though. :)
March 20, 2008 5:27 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 20, 2008 17:27
Paganplace,
I don't know, even after several readings, just how to reply to your post, which I can only call a litany of sorrows. I damn near wept. I can say this: let us not shuffle in sorrow, but walk proudly in this grand and beautiful creation.
This is my Holy Week, so I am even more emotional than ever. The passion of Jesus is very, very real to me, almost as if I had been there. Maybe I was. And the joy of Easter is also very real, and extremely emotional, to me.
This is my path, only mine. It includes the Way of the Cross. Your path is different. But.... I firmly believe that we will meet at the top of that mountain.
God bless,
Arminius
March 20, 2008 5:20 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 20, 2008 17:20
Arminius, Good Morning and Happy Ostara! (first day of Spring)
There were many types of slavery...some like what we had in America, some like in Greece or Rome.
There is a story about Slavery and the Goddess Diana in Italy.
The Golden Bough, by Sir James Frazer opens up with:
The still glassy lake that sleeps
Beneath Aricia's trees-
Those trees in whose dim shadow
The ghastly priest doth reign,
The priest who slew the slayer,
And shall himself be slain.
There was a little woodland lake called Nemi, Diana's Mirror, as it was called by the ancients.The shrine of Diana was there...no temple only the grove and sanctuary of trees...
The Priest of this place a run away slave, King of the Wood (Rex Nemorensis)...who must kill the one before him. This rule I do not believe there was another tradition like it any where else...but there is a story about this...
The book is excellent and if you can find it, worth having. I believe it should be a must in every Pagan's book shelf, or those interested in history.
terra
March 20, 2008 1:20 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 20, 2008 13:20
Terra,
Thanks for the links. The one about the Brehon Laws was especially fascinating. An echo of that is in Scotland - there was never a King of Scotland - he was King of Scots. The Scots were well aware of the difference. Also, the Germanic tribes that fought Caesar and numerous other emperors were known for the freedom of their women.
Arminius
March 20, 2008 1:11 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 20, 2008 13:11
This is interesting...
On Patrick
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/patrick/confession.toc.html
This is a site that I found early on-Medieval Sourcebook
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook2.html
I am not saying that Pagans did not have slaves...but like the rights of women, the Irish were ahead of the curve.
The Brehon Laws...
http://www.irish-society.org/Hedgemaster%20Archives/brehon_laws.htm
terra
March 20, 2008 12:49 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 20, 2008 12:49
Terra,
You are correct about slavery in Rome. They could even buy their freedom, and then their children would be citizens. The most valuable slaves were the literate ones. What a contrast with our horrible American history.
Yes, the church has an abominable record with slavery. Patrick was an exception in hating it.
Slavery did die out in Europe about the 12th century. This fueled technological development, since it was now respectable to be a miner or a blacksmith. Instead of just getting more slaves to do more work, people starting figuring out how to do it better by themselves. By the 14th century, Europe was much further advanced in industry than Rome ever was. A slaveholding society has a lot of trouble making any lasting technological advances - the slave owners don't want to get their hands dirty.
Arminius
March 20, 2008 12:47 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 20, 2008 12:47
Paganplace,
"Time to save civilization. *again.* :)"
I think you're on to something there.....
"I think it would be a good idea."
- Gandhi, when asked about Western Civilization
Arminius
March 20, 2008 12:35 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 20, 2008 12:35
As far as slavery and Christianity goes...It was the Pagans in Rome that gave rights to Slaves:
The Pagan Roman Republic took many steps to alleviate the lot of slaves. In 82 BCE murder of slaves were forbidden by the Cornelian Law. Around 30 BCE the Petronian Law forbade the sending of slaves to fight in the amphitheater. The Stoic teaches Seneca (c 5 BCE-65 CE), while he still had influence over the insane emperor, Nero (37-68 CE) managed to induce him to pass a law to forbade the cruel treatment of slaves. The Emperor Hadrian (76-138), an Epicurean, revived the laws prohibiting the murder of slaves and of sending them to the amphitheater. He also suppressed the inhuman practice of housing slaves underground. Hadrian was also known to have banished a wealthy Roman lady, named Umbricia, for cruelty to her slaves. By the second century slaves had already acquired the right, under certain circumstances, to bring legal action against their masters. The Emperor Antoninus Pius (86-161) issued an imperial decree which gives freedom to a slave running from a cruel master; on the condition that the runaway slave must embrace a statue of the emperor before he is considered a free man.
The voices of conscience raised against slavery was also Pagan. The Pagan Dio Chrysostom, who was the greatest orator of his age, delivered a speech around AD100 in a public hall in the Forum of Rome where he explicitly and at great length condemned slavery as unjust.
The first Christian Roman Emperor, Constantine (c274-337) actually undid most of the humane laws to alleviate the position of slaves laid down by his pagan predecessors. He permitted parents to sell their children into slavery and allowed finders of abandoned children to bring them up as slaves. He also issued a decree which stipulates the death penalty for any Christian woman who had sexual intercourse with a slave; that the slave would also be put to death is a foregone conclusion.
The Roman pontiffs made many remarks about slaves and slavery. none of which helped to abolish the practice. Pope Leo The Great (d.461) ruled that no slaves can become priests because their "vileness" will "pollute" the sacred order. Pope Gregory the Great (c540-604), who was the richest slave owner in sixth century Europe, forbade the marriage of Christian women to slaves. In the eleventh century, Pope Benedict VIII (d1024), in an effort to stop priests from having sex, decreed that all children produced by these unlawful coupling should be made slaves. Pope Paul III (1468-1549) decreed that all Englishmen who supported the errant King, Henry VIII should be reduced to slavery. In the fifteenth century, the papacy gave the king of Portugal permission top conquer "heathen" countries and reduced their population in "everlasting slavery."
The churches and the monasteries, far from being a haven for escaping slaves, actually owned slaves. When ancient slavery ended, the monasteries were among the last to give up their slaves. Ancient slavery ended in the twelfth century, or more correctly evolved into serfdom, not because of any concerted Christian action but for purely economic reasons. It became cheaper for the wealthy to have serfs working their land and feeding themselves than to own dependent slaves.
terra
March 20, 2008 11:59 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 20, 2008 11:59
Yaknow, though, Arminius, it's a funny thing that just woke me, but, heavy trip as it is to lay on anyone...
Time to save civilization. *again.* :)
Good to go? :)
March 20, 2008 1:50 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 20, 2008 01:50
Though, Arminius, in terms of door-to-door missionaries, it maybe takes the context below to get this one:
"knock, knock,"
"Who's there?"
"Would you like eternal life?"
"Are you *F'n *nuts?* :) "
;)
March 20, 2008 12:54 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 20, 2008 00:54
"Do you guys know where I can DL Gwydion's songs? Thanks!"
I believe Google will turn those up, if not a place where you can actually buy the CDs, which is worth doing. :) (I've always wanted to do a blues version of 'The Raven is Calling' with standup bass, myself. :) Somehow I don't think the dude who dared call himself Penderrwenn would mind. :) )
March 20, 2008 12:21 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 20, 2008 00:21
Ah, well, Arminius:
"I sense a bitterness in you. God knows you have the right to it. I have my own, but cannot claim to have what you must have."
Doesn't do to deny it, but it's certainly not the biggest thing in my life, thank the Lord and Bright Lady, ...As and that's good enough to be getting on with, I say. :)
No illusions it's not a soul-wound on our people, though, what I mention.
A big one, too often filled with all manner of nasty things that seem convenient, I'm afraid. Doesn't do to deny *that,* either.
Personally, I tend to think of it like, (suborning of chieftains for short-term inter-tribal interest aside,) Christianity came in and threatened and promised a lot of things that just didn't fit in our world. Being Irish, we triedd to crak each other in the crown to try and *make* em fit, but it was ultimately ...just more empty violence, something that cost more than it ever gave, compared to what 'we' might have done in our own good time.
It's not like Christian mildness wasn't something probably much-needed among the Bronze Age bravado, but the price was too high, the sacrifice to some God of Judgment too long... the divorce from the real understanding of the generational conflicts... too costly in blood and tears, and too lost among the struggle against invading oppressors appealing to any love for the cross.
Too often we've been tools in the internecine fights of Christians seeking power, I'd say.
Even our own dogged senses of loyalty turned against us.
Too many not even giving a crap what they're fighting for, as long as there's a fight. No names, no honor, no justice, no hope for peace, just feud. Blood for blood and stick a crucifix on it.
How long in the 20th century did we have to wait for someone to have the mythic sense or happenstance to sign a peace accord on 'Good Friday?'
Erin... Eriu... Is a Goddess... One who asks.... demands, really, one thing of any who come to Ireland from beyond the ninth wave: Become Irish, and be strangers no more, as it was for the Sons Of Mil and even before, even for the Tuatha de Danaan....
But the Church still considers us barely-civilized, barely Christianized, given to visions and fancies and drink and all as we are, 'Oh, father, show me the error of my ways, and if your peepee won't convince me, put me in a Magdalene house, wouldya please?'
Slavery bothers you? Bitterness bothers you? I'll tell you about both, and that's just Boston.
You, I'll wager, were never beaten, accosted, or locked in the dark for seeing what we've always seen. Being what we've always been. Never had to turn aside calls for help from boys who were being molested cause you were afraid of being called a d*** or something. Never raped by someone who got it in their head, (From *Gods* know where) that their *penis* could 'fix' you from your 'sin.'
*Yes,* it's bitter, Arminius. It can't not be. But such bitter things are not the summmation of our lives, or our heritage, or ourselves as the humans we are now.
Not even of your religion. But you gotta *make* it so. No more free rides.
Just in general.
Some people been telling the Irish for a long time that 'suffering is good for the soul,' and I'm here to tell you that's only gonna wash for a certain number of generations more. A soul gets over that. In time, anyway.
Time that no dogma can stop us from having.
'Too long a sacrifice makes a stone of the heart,'
But I'm learning to speak the language of stones, as goes a fave song of mine goes, and Lady demands naught of sacrifice, anyway, as the Charge says. :)
It's us. It's always been us. Us.
What do you want to do now, kinsman? Maybe we can shuffle along with my bitternesses. :)
March 20, 2008 12:02 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 20, 2008 00:02
Hey, I like curmudgeons, too! I haven't seen Isaac in a while, since I stopped attending Free Spirit Gathering. Like I said, I disagree with some of his positions - I just take what I like and leave the rest.
I've been slowly trying to download MP3s of various cassettes that I have that have gotten damaged over the years. Besides, I don't think that I have a cassette player anymore. Do you guys know where I can DL Gwydion's songs? Thanks!
March 19, 2008 10:38 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 19, 2008 22:38
Paganplace,
Dear Lady, dear friend,
Yes, let there be peace here. As it should be.
I have that Book of Kells. I warmly appreciate your offer.
I sense a bitterness in you. God knows you have the right to it. I have my own, but cannot claim to have what you must have.
Remember, despite all differences, we do stand together. You are one hell of a lady.
Signing off for the night. Sleep well, friend.
Armminius
March 19, 2008 9:26 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 19, 2008 21:26
sasha,
I agree...
We can go outside and look up see the moon and feel the breeze..hear the trees talking to us. Those behind bars have only their sameness each day, maybe for years. The real hell.
My HP serves some prisoners as a chaplian. He has to do it through the mail but long letters and lessons have helped get some of these men through their time. Having someone to count on and a way to live in balance, responcibility and connection gives them a structure and a view of living.
terra
March 19, 2008 8:59 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 19, 2008 20:59
Ok, though, 'truce.' Didn't realize his was a fight. :)
Friend. :)
I do have a little reason to be resentful how the churchmen turned certain of our beliefs to ...things I experienced... More recently than historians like to tell you, actually. But you can't live while taking certain things too personally.
If I still had this pretty little book of Kells, I'd like to send it to you, actually. I begin to think it's gone, though, it was nothing to be hoarding, anyway, if the words don't mean much to you. If I find it hiding while I pack, I'll tell you. :)
BB. :)
March 19, 2008 8:45 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 19, 2008 20:45
(And please forgive the rampant typoes: I moved my laptop around recently, and there's all manner of junk in my keyboard which has worked loose under the keys, and I'm chasing it around with Scotch tape. :) )
Anyway, the darkness Christianity brought to Irish folkways is something that kind of gets to me personally... That very intertwining of the natural and spiritual and human worlds so evident in the art you love also turned to greeting manifestations of our spiritual heritage in fearful ways that lead to abuse and atrocity.
Just cause you believe in your Bible doesn't mean stuff doesn't happen, stuff which people can be taught to believe is 'deviltry' to be expunged, instead of a manifestation of our ancestral connections to the land and spirit.
This is one of the things which modern Irish kind of cough politely and attribute to 'superstition,' ...till, of course, something weird happens and families are torn apart.
Our tribal culture wasn't perfect, and not to be over-romanticised, but, frankly, yes, it did turn the Irish view of the spirit world dark. Cause that kind of intimate daily connection just doesn't quite fit the Bible's view.
So it is with many tribal cultures that you can read Church documents instructing missionaries to appropriate, subvert, and eventually destroy.
In that funny Irish Pagan way, Arminius, I think you have the right to your beliefs, but, nothing's forgotten.
I believe you're a man of good character because you have a will to do better. That's still on you to do, but I will help in any way I can.
No illusions, though.
History's there.
Not to mention everyone crapping themselves about ghosts. Seriously.
March 19, 2008 8:25 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 19, 2008 20:25
Paganplace,
I respectfully request a truce. Our differences are deep, too deep for me now.
Peace, friend.
Arminius
March 19, 2008 8:25 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 19, 2008 20:25
"Eire was not benighted, except maybe for slavery, when Patrick landed on its shore"
Frankly, I'd be more inclined to say the Irish didn't know the *meaning* of slavery till he did. As I said, unfree peoples had enumerated rights and social mobility, whereas when Christian establishments came and turned the chiefs to hereditary partilineal inheritance rather than tanistry, that's when the slavery we love to hate *did* start, but that's the various lenses of history.
As far as I'm concerned, though, my ancestors welcomed monastic Christians once, and that's also something I'll stand for. Not like I never *was* one, myself.
The point is, there was a dignity and justice there which is too-readily dismissed by the Christian riumphalism of today... much of the utter corruption and destruction of the tribal ways and the rights of the people is glossed over with notions that Christianity 'brought light' to our benighted, stupid, tribal ancestors, whose laws, nonetheless, were the first things the invaders stole.
March 19, 2008 8:08 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 19, 2008 20:08
Paganplace,
One last Parthian shot: please read Cahill's book, and then come back and tell me what you think. The iron boot of the Vatican came long after Patrick.
Arminius
March 19, 2008 7:57 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 19, 2008 19:57
Paganplace,
Eire was not benighted, except maybe for slavery, when Patrick landed on its shore.
Give the dude a bit of credit. One man, against an entire land. That guy had guts.
At the time, Eire was total anarchy, everybody fighting everybody else, in the grand tradition of the Celts. Did Patrick fix that? Well, no.... they continued to fight. Something about the Irish! Yes, there was a 'High King' at Tara, but he had not much power. The only king that I know of who managed to pull that land of poets and fighters together was Brian Boru. He got killed, at a great age, maybe by traitors, at Clontarf, where the Vikings were roundly defeated in 1014 by the raging Irish.
What a country! My father, born in Belfast, toured the south of Eire as a young man. He said that it was the most beautiful land on the planet.
Arminius
March 19, 2008 7:51 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 19, 2008 19:51
(as this comes through)
"The emphasis here is on AGREE to disagree. We are not at bad odds here. I just have to step back, maybe gather some facts, etc.
We are still there."
Sure.
It's not always about 'facts,' such as we've been given to have, though. Also, perspectives. Bringing 'sin' and 'hells' and fears to our people, though, was no more a kindness that it ever was for those the Christians roll over tribal peoples with, bringinga their problems and 'solutions' thereto with them.
It's not our fault if we 'saved civilzation' while catching the very worst of it in the process.
We're Irish. It's what we do. :)
March 19, 2008 7:48 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 19, 2008 19:48
I mean, ou realize, Arminius, that before the Christians and later the English came, that the Irish were way ahead of the curve on this one thing: Even high kings were accountable to the law. Not to mention their geasa and other things nations and humans deal with.
Someone else had to come along and say, with force of power, 'There's another standard, arbitrated by some books and kings and power from the East that no one can read, even a lot of copyists.'
March 19, 2008 7:36 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 19, 2008 19:36
I suppose, though, Arminius, what you may be talking about is the common notion that St. Patrick brought 'light' to a 'benighted' people.
What he actually brought was a notion of absolute and eternal war to people who always liked a good fight, much to our ongoing woe.
March 19, 2008 7:29 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 19, 2008 19:29
Paganplace,
The emphasis here is on AGREE to disagree. We are not at bad odds here. I just have to step back, maybe gather some facts, etc.
We are still there.
Arminius
March 19, 2008 7:29 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 19, 2008 19:29
"For a time, I will leave it at the point that we agree to disagree."
Ok. :) I'm not sure on just what points this may be (Sorry, there, Net went down for a bit) But...I on't find disagreement so inherently disagreeable, as do some. :)
Still, there's something I could clarify? :)
March 19, 2008 7:11 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 19, 2008 19:11
Paganplace,
For a time, I will leave it at the point that we agree to disagree.
With much respect,
Arminius
March 19, 2008 6:59 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 19, 2008 18:59