All Comments (115)

Mohammed's not a deity. Muslim's worship Allah.

paganplace- you misread me then.
there was no acrimony-

still- acrimony is a harsh description

i take pains to post the actual comments people make, rather than misrepresnting their intent-
(only starhawks in this case)
i do it to be fair-

i would make the same call for fairness no matter who the recipients of my poor efforts were directed at

my response to starhawks post- was only that, a response to what i felt was somehwat censorious of those whose views are different than hers.

in a pluralistic society, i truly believe we do have to tolerate public expressions even though they are anathema to our own views

to say people must stay in their homes to do so, i find very oppressive and censoring

if you want christians to stay in their homes to celebrate- that means pagans must do the same-

however, pagans do many celebrations outside
so, if you look at it from your own perspective, that wouldnt be fair, would it?

so, of course, its not fair for anyone, including christians.

so, there is no "we"
there is no "us"

i was responding to an individual, starhawk

why is it a "bad idea" for me to come and post?

it is not up to you to decide if it is "OK" for mew to express my opinion

i am respectful
i am polite
i NEVER call people names
i am not unkind

i am hurt that you said this-

"Gee, Victoria, seems you're capable of being disingenuous all for yourself"

i am not a liar, and shouldnt be called one for no reason.

and again- as you quoted me-

", and turning it around to imply we're being 'intolerant against Christians,' which I still don't get where you got that"

i most certainly did not say that

and there was no "we"- it was to an individual(starhawk, who posts here expecting responses)

this is why i carefully quote people-
to honor their words, and not misunderstand or misrepresnet them

Lady T, Blessings and Happy Yule. Yes we have known each other for a long time now. You know me very well indeed, however, in this case, making you eat your words wasn’t planned … with or without the crackers! As for the post … thank you. If I have learned nothing else from you … and we both know that’s not true… I have learned to speak up. It does get me in trouble from time to time though!

May the Lady and Lord bless you and those near you.
Lady R

Pilgrim, thank you, I’m glad you were so inspired. That will be a powerful prayer. May it speak to you and strengthen you as you follow your Path. Season’s Blessings to you and yours.

Paganplace, thank you and Blessed Be.

Namaste
Silvlaro

I'm not sure, Victoria, but it seems to me you've been quoting calls for diverse celebrations, and turning it around to imply we're being 'intolerant against Christians,' which I still don't get where you're seeming to derive that from.

That is in fact something others portray *us* as being about, whatever we actually say. Even while quoting us saying otherwise.

Anyway, I was just a little bothered at the sudden acrimony, or seeming acrimony, Victoria. At least in the middle of a nice Yule, (what a contrast between our celebration and all this religious/political 'Christmas War' stuff here. ...if you didn't mean it that way, OK.

I just decided, 'Oh, well, that was a bad idea, coming here during vigil.'

Blessed be, all. :)

Silvlaro

Beautiful post! I took your advice about your devotional, and morphed it for a Christian (me!).
I intend to say it often.

I strive towards universal perfection
I pray for the light and love of
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
To Cleanse and Bless
My Body and Spirit
So that I can perform today
In Love, Honor and Wisdom

Thanks, best of the season to you and yours, and God bless,

Pilgrim

silv,

Blessings and Happy Yule...
As I have known you for a "long" time...and I know how you strive for balance...and making me eat my words...with crackers. lol. Good post there Lady R...

Goddess bless you and yours on this holy season.

Lady T

This thread prompted me into doing a bit of research into how many religions hold sacred observances at this time of year. Considering the numbers, many dating back to pre-recorded history, I don’t see how any one religion can lay claim to the entire season. I find it a bit ironic that everyone talks about peace and good will at the this time of year and yet there are more arguments and disagreements flying around in the name of “religion”. I was also interested to discover just how many were combinations of older observances/celebrations. I don’t think most people realize just where the traditions they follow originated.

With that said I will move on to the rest of my reason for posting … and if you think about what I say here you will see that yes they are connected.

I’m sure you are all aware of the difficulties this medium presents us with when it comes to reading “meaning” and or “inflection” into what is shared. Since we can neither hear “tone of voice” nor see the “body language” others are using it is easy to misinterpret what we read. If we could all be face to face for these discussions I am sure that most of us would discover that the perceived insults were, in fact, none existent. As it was pointed out to me once, it is so easy to “see” what one wishes in these writings, be it praise or insults. Instead of instantly jumping to the defensive how about taking a moment to think of the times one of your posts got a negative response and upon reading that response your first thought was “I didn’t mean it THAT way!”. If each of us stopped for a minute and objectively read before reacting I am sure there would be more productive exchanges of thought as well as a better understanding of one another.

Now before someone calls me a “love and lighter” I will say that I do realize there are those out there who mean to be argumentative and insulting, it’s what they do. The more you try to explain your thoughts the more they bash you. Personally I try to ignore those people. Talking to them amounts to attempting to teach a pig to sing, it wastes my time and annoys the pig. Discussions not arguments are productive. Let them look else where for a victim.

In the spirit of sharing let me pass you this thought … I’m not sure who the author is but I find it fitting and have taken to using it as my morning devotional:

I am one with universal perfection
I invoke the positive energies of
The Lord and The Lady
To Cleanse and Bless
My Body and Spirit
So that I can perform today
In Love, Honor and Wisdom

Using a little creativity you could substitute the name of your deity and this would be a lovely prayer for anyone to start his or her day with.

May the memories you make be happy ones and may those you love be safe.

Namaste
Silvlaro

Dear Terra,

"Such bans on Christmas continued well into the 19th Century.

Times have changed...

terra"

I was raised Catholic before I rejected it. I had no real idea of what you are saying. The Protestant church I now attend accepts Christmas as a cause for celebrations.

Ya learn something new, every day, I guess, if you listen to people. That is a note on history that I will follow up a bit later. Now, I have to go and celebrate.

Thanks for the info and Merry Yule.

All the best to you and yours.

Mod

why the edge paganplace?

it was either be sarcastically self deprecating or return aggressive criitcism with the same.

you dont have to agree with my views, but you dont have to call me disingenuous (liar), or insult me as a mindless drone-

im as entitled as anyone to have an opinion-

i honestly dont know how to engage you-
ive tried being cordial, inviting-

ive tried just letting you be,

but if im insulted for no reason in a personal way- i feel compelled to not let myself be misrepresented as a fool- which im not-

i dont like being accused of falseness and disngenuity,when im being sincere.

"living in a pluralistic society, and enjoying its benefits, menas that even when people publicly express ideas that are anathema to yours,
you still tolerate them as you desire to be tolerated by them."

i really believe this, and live it too-
there is no sarcasm in my initial post-
it is real and honest

*waving as she breezes through seeing if anyone's posted greetings during the festivities...*

Uh, huh.

Gee, Victoria, seems you're capable of being disingenuous all for yourself, if you want to sarcastically let on like a call for diversity and tolerance somehow means we're being intolerant.

Oh, well.

Again, blessed Yule, all.

:)

PILGRIM-
strangely enough- icame upon this article looking for that quote (although i thought samuel johnson said it first-hmm)
it happens to be written by a ,,,mr lazarus

Ben Franklin, of course, understood this. His actual quote, as I understand it, reads: "Those who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither liberty nor security."

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/lazarus/20060202.html

yesss paganplace-

you caught me- it is ever so clear now that i mindlessly parrot what others "disingenuously" tell me- sucking it up and believing it no matter what

since i obviously possess no ability to construct and coalesce original ideas on my own i am quite dependent on others telling me what to think-

ill just sit here quietly and wait for further instructions from the mothership...

tolerating each other?

what a ridiculous idea!

Happy Yuletide,

Our Creator has begun the lengthening of daylight and there isn't a thing Christians, Mormons, Jews or anyone else can do about it. Pagan prayers and offerings will rule as they have from time immemorial.

No amount of Christian, Muslim, or Jewish prayers prevailed over our celebrations last night.

What fun!! Presents! Santa Claus! Whoops, did we pagans co-opt a Christian word - Saint Nick?? - just a translation of Julenissen? - hmmmm - no matter - Pagan and Christian children world-wide are waiting to hear the jingle bells of Dasher,Dancer, Comet, and the others.

*swinging by to wish everyone a merry and safe Solstice,*

Having diversity in public displays and the like, Victoria, is *not,* as is so often claimed, censorship. People are free to worship in (literal) public squares, this is different from the government itself endorsing one religion and excluding others.

In fact, the radical Christian position tends to be to accuse minorities and diversity advocates of 'censoring' them if they aren't allowed to use the government to recognize *only* their religion, (conveniently, they take this as *part* of their own religion.)

It's a false accusation to imply that wanting public displays to be *inclusive,* means diversity people *don't* want Christians included, too, (scant danger of that, anyway.)

...Usually made by those trying to justify *exclusive* (conservative) Christian use of public property.

So I wouldn't worry, there, Victoria. Those who told you to be concerned about 'reverse discrimination' are either misinformed or being disingenuous.

In a time when religion in government has been the source of so much polarization, it's my hope that the holidays can come to be seen as a celebration of the true, diverse America, not an endorsement of the idea that only 'Christian America' even exists.

And happy holidays to *you,* by the way. :)

Victoria,

GROK!

Yes, Christmas is for everybody. I have no problem with public displays so long as they do not exclude others.

Lazarus also said:
"You can have freedom or you can have security. Don't ever count on having both at the same time."

thanks pilgrim for the lazarus long quote-
robert heinlein was not a christian-
he even created a faux religion in stranger n a strange land
i grok

"So no, I don’t think we’re being too ‘politically correct’ to hold to the guiding principles that our Constitution is founded upon..."

the constitution states that the GOVERNMENT may not prefer one religion over another by instituting law-

it does not censor the public expression of ones beliefs
no law is being enacted by (the government)when a choir sings carols in a public forum

"I support Christ being the ’star of the show’ in every Christian Church and Christian home..."

people are allowed to leave their houses and retain their expression
does this also mean pagans shpould stay in their homes and not be allowed to celebrate their rituals outside?
of course not- that would be ridiculous and oppressive

I do not support Christ being the star of the show in public celebrations—

if you want freedom yourself- you have to tolerate it in others

"Let’s keep our celebrations respectful of the multiplicity of approaches to religion and faith that make us a rich, diverse, and free society."

well, doesnt that include chrsitians?

living in a pluralistic society, and enjoying its benefits, menas that even when people publicly express ideas that are anathema to yours,
you still tolerate them as you desire to be tolerated by them.

it doesnt mean censoring

Thank you for saying this, as it needs to be said, sometimes it can be hard to celebrate this time of year without feeling guilty that one doesn't have a Christ in it. I feel this is a deliberate move on the part of certain religious movements to enforce their views onto others.

To all -

Have a Cool Yule and a Frantic First!

All winds blow toward Windreader!

Happy Holidays, Windreader!

Please accept without obligation, express or implied, these best wishes for an environmentally safe, socially responsible, low stress, non-addictive, and gender-neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday as practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice (but with respect for the religious or secular persuasions and/or traditions of others, or for their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all) and further for a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling, and medically uncomplicated onset of the generally accepted calendar year (including, but not limited to, the Christian calendar, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures). The preceding wishes are extended without regard to the race, creed, age, physical ability, religious faith or lack thereof, choice of computer platform, or sexual preference of the wishee(s.

Most Christians are ignorant about all the historical trappings of Christmas. They never think about where the Christmas Tree came from or why Christ's birth, despite not having any indication when Christ was born anywhere, was placed on Dec 25th (due to the Earth’s precession, 2000 years ago this was the Winter Solstice). By contrast those who are Pagan or UU or other "under ground" religions or points of view are normally well educated about these issues. Christianity and Christmas are copies of previous religions and myths, yet those who believe in this have no clue (or don’t want a clue), which I believe is a voluntary ignorance. If they don't "go there" then they don't have to answer some very difficult questions about their beliefs. It is safer this way - ignorance is bliss.

Actually, there's some pretty good arguments made that Jesus wasn't born around the Winter Solstice. If you look at the patterns of when shepherds had their flocks out in the pastures at night in the Levant, it's usually between April and October. In December, the rainy season, the sheep are kept in close pastures. December 25th (or thereabouts) was chosen several hundred years afterwards because it was the birthday of several other Roman Gods, including Mithras and Sol Invictus (the Unconquerable Sun), as well as the Festival of Saturnalia. This way, Christians could celebrate something too.

Oh, and pigs are apparently highly intelligent creatures, more so than sheep or cattle. They just have a bad rep because of their penchant for eating anything and wallowing in mud because they have no sweat glands. Back in the day, that meant that their meat was more of a hazard than that of cows, sheep, or goats. The sow was also the sacred animal of Demeter.

Paganplace:

"Of course, like some humans will, he had to elaborate, ....start categorizing 'Eclati-On' vs 'Eclati-Off,' ....that's not just dualistic, that's *binary.* On-off. Like a digital thing."

To me "Eclati-On vs. Eclati-Off" just means the same things as "Do as you will, harm none". When you are Eclati-Off it just means you are harming someone. It has nothing to do with categorizing.
Understand?

JJ's photons were dimming a bit when he was ranting hateful things. And that was what I tried to tell him. It hurt me to see a friend to bitter.

Jacob:

Never hate, it destroys your Eclat.

((((((((((((LOTS OF HUGS)))))))))))) < ?: +)

To Everyone:

Have a wonderful Holiday Season whatever you celebrate (or not!)

Brother or sister, TexasMAGI@aol, we only ask that you do unto others, as you would want them to do unto you. We want peace and love. If this is in your religious perspective, please give it to us, we who are different from you.

Peace, love, and tolerance are my wishes for you.

Yes, Let's Celebrate All Deities.

god Bless Us, Everyone.

"Every god, every mythology, every religion is true in this sence, it is true as metaphorical of the human and cosmic mysteries"

Joseph Campbell

Here is the beginning to his "The Masks of Eternity" -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG4XyQfzI8k

TexasMagi, Jesus could have avoided all the confusion if only he had simply not chosen to be born smack dab in the middle of an ancient worldwide Winter festival, on the exact same day that dozens of other dying/resurrecting god men were also born of virgins for millennia before him. Seeing how your God is omnipotent it’s hard to see how he couldn’t have seen the confusion that would cause. Nevertheless, thanks for stopping in and reminding us that we’re all going to burn in Hell, I had almost forgotten.

A very merry Christmas to you too!

Umm, Texas?

Try living in our shoes a turn of the Wheel, if you think that.

Seriously.

As for your world ending any-time-now, yadda, yadda, you've been saying that an awful long time.

Could be that 'PC' ain't your first concern, never mind coming after lil' ol' us.

Isn't it interesting that those who deem it important to give equal respect to all (even witches) are rarely willing to give such hollow respect to the things that REALLY deserve it from a practical/historical standpoint? Or did you miss the fact that other "deities" are invited, nay, encouraged to be worshiped on a holy day set apart to celebrate the gift of restored fellowship with our Creator (on His terms) through the Messiah He promised, who was prophesied to die for our sins and who did so that we might be redeemed to life? If you can read between the lines at all, you can see that only the truth suffers this kind of treatment. False religions and cults never suffer the demands of Christians to get equal time and PC "fairness doctrine" treatment...because they already declare the truth of our creation and the Creator, and are not in competition with pagan or other false religions that lead mankind away from that truth. Soon the Messiah will return again in power and dominion, like many Jews (ignorant of their own prophets) expected Him to come the first time. At that time, this truth will be supremely important to all. Take the time now to learn how everything the Jews did pointed to the lamb of God, Jesus of Nazareth, who would first come to take away the sins of the world (Passover, Isaiah 53, etc) before He comes to destroy the works of unrighteousness and to rule the Earth. Why not? Everything else He promised has come to pass! Truth...indeed.

Btw, Christians who feel all 'persecuted' cause 'Merry Christmas' isn't *mandatory.*

Know what it's like to have to hide your religion in your *own home?*

Pardon if you get the occasional 'Boo F'n Hoo' when you whine about not being able to put a crucifix in the middle of Congress or something.

Gods. Perspective, here.

Gods, Terra, I'm not quite sure what all that's about, but, 'Back to work?' I haven't even started cooking, yet. :)

We're still trying to balance having a holiday with the posssibility of real estate people barging in and taking it out on us if they see anything Pagan in our humble house.

What a wonderful time of the year.

Paganplace,
Yes...how can we strive for enlightenment if we do not experience all there is?

If you do return and experience all ways of being human...how can we say being any certain way wrong?

The High Priest to our group is a gay, black man..he is also my best friend. I am a middle aged, very white hetrosexual woman. Well I would be middle aged if I live to be 118. I have teased the HP that when he comes back it will be as a White republican attending Liberty U.

My husband of 20 years would be surprised to know I was a lesbian...we don't tell each other everything, but that would be a big bang of a secret.

I must say that, as a Pagan with Christian family and friends(Christmas eve is here),as well as a group with a ritual, yule log burning and Mother Berta gift exchange...(Yule is here) this time of the year is pure chaos.

Happy Yule you'all! Back to work!
terra

Ah, wouldn't worry *too* much about that, Terra. I really think that we mostly get crap a) cause we're supposed to be, and b) whenever we fail to be the 'bad guys' in Christian narratives.

I think they keep trotting out all these 'Ex Wiccans' convinced they're demon possessed, more concerned with using these mentally-ill people who wouldn't know a Wiccan thing out of an Ebay lot, ..to insist we're bad guys, than they are interested in caring for such people or preventing them from harming other mentally-ill people or inciting others to violence against the innocent, cause... well, just like they can't divorce science from their Bible, they have the somewhat more problematic difficulty recognizing that fellow human beings *aren't* put on Earth to be the villains in *their* book.

Frankly, I think they fear like Harry Potter cause they got theologically confused what a book *is,* and that just dovetails so nicely with blaming the nearest Wiccan for the bad effects of what they do rather than facing up.

Or just having a merry Christmas.

What can you do.

Ban "not made in America Religions"?

ok I spit tea all over my keyboard...Just what is a Made in America religion? Heavens Gate? Jim Jones? The "God Hates Fags" dimbulbs? They all claim Jesus and being Christian...so I guess they do not have the right to wear the Union tag.

Umm what is a Made in America religion?

Not Christianity...after all it was first made in Israel, Rome and Greece.

Sorry I guess you're tough out of luck...darn! we must Import religions along with wheat gluten and lead based toys.

terra

Really is, that hospitality thing. Goes back further than Islam or Christianity or Judaism... Actually, if you look at the Old Testament stories that Christians usually use to try to justify gaybashing, ...what happens there actually makes a lot more sense in terms of *ancient rules of hospitality* rather than ideas of *modern sexual tabooes.*

(ie, Lot wasn't trying to offer his daughters as sexual surrogates for a rapacious 'gay' mob; he was trying to shame the inhospitable townspeople away from dragging his guests out of his house on the basis they were *strangers,* ...if guest-right had been violated in that way, he may as *well* give his daughters away, cause his house would have been dishonored, and as women of that time they would have had no prospects, anyway.*)

Which all goes to some Christians confusing 'Know' with, what we'd say was the verb to F. Not the same thing, though, to people then or to Pagans now.

Hospitality is a key virtue, though, and even in Muslim countries where they might beat you on the street, when you're the guest of someone's house, you're supposed to be *safe.*

It's something that's referred to in some of the Western traditions that have been diminished to wassailing or trick-or-treating-or caroling, but these things are about community connection in urban situations *precisely because* this is a shared human value.

One that I think is ill served by some of the behavior of political Christians just lately, as a matter of fact.

I think the thing about us is that WE know that so much of what is said about us just isn't true, and are finally starting to speak out.

We're here talking about who we are or what we do in case that someone reading these forums comes to it with bad information about us can leave with an open mind. Even if you don't agree- and that's ok- you're still welcome to the party if you are respectful.

Even you, JJ.

Blessed be!

Paganplace

No offence was taken! I will try to understand JJ or whoever he is. I still consider 'Concerned' as a hopeless cause.

The rule of hospitality has a world wide spread. It is now particularly strong, as I understand, in Afghanistan and that area. It was apparently very strong in Celtic and Germanic pre-Christian cultures. I know, therefore, that the Pagans of today follow that, and I respect it highly.

I didn't mean for you to take offense, Pilgrim.

At the *very* moment, this isn't about you. Our friend JJ has been, ..... in a bad way for some time, and we've just seen a glimmer of his old jubilance, ... wouldn't want to start calling him porcine names, now, would we. :)

And, should I come to be needing hospitality in some future travels, I'd hope to find a house so hospitable, and likewise is offered. :)

There's a number of Pagan myths that we take pretty seriously about hospitality, among other affairs, ... that, if you needed convincing, any guest might be the Gods in disguise... (more Pagan traditions that found their way into Christian ones, only to be suspected as having something sinister about them by current-day-Christians)

...But offers of hospitality are well-respected.

All there is about this is, give JJ a chance to come back to the world, here. That was an overture, just now, I think.

As in, It's OK, JJ, we'd be lacking as friends not inviting you back from where you've been. We know you've been saying some things, but, we know it doesn't make you happy. Care to touch down?

I know you can't see us over the screen, but look at us, JJ. People, just like you.

It's confusing, but we're gonna work this out.

OK?

Jacob?

Er, Uh, ..... Paganplace,

'Pigs' is a metaphor. I did not mean to call anyone a rather ugly but very tasty four-legged beastie. The whole idea is not to waste one's time trying to persuade people who cannot be persuaded. But that does not discount putting forth one's own ideas, as you wisely said. And I am not about to try to end your world. I suspect you would be welcome in my house any time.

Thanks, Pilgrim, but before you start saying 'pearls before swine,' you've got to think of em as a 'pig' (in a bad way.)

I have to admit you can waste a lot of effort, that way, but. we are not a religion of followers or sheep, or swine, or any other uncharitable metaphor.

Frankly, it's possible I think too much of people, ...the subject of my little chat with my Gods last night, in fact, but, hey. What I took away from it in my little head is that that's the very intractable stupidity they most love me for.

And, yes, this is more about me than Them.

But it's as good as another way to get screwed in this world, I figure.

I think it's time to stop running scared about what someone else does 'damning' us and start living up to the potential that some people would freak out about and tear to ruins, while, of course, consolidating their wealth and theological absolutism in order to come out on top...

Some people would in fact much rather tear down most of our civilization and induce catastrophe and war, rather than accept the freedom that we, the people have built, and just been able to start both realizing the promise of, and taking responsibility for.

No one, not even the biggest, most 'transhuman' God you can imagine will hand it to us.

This is about people who would rather end our world than let us *try.*

*My* faith says, we can be agrarian any ol time.

Let's give the promise of *this* all our heart.

And don't chicken out.

Ain't about no pigs, that way.

It's about humans. It's about us.

To all of you Pagans:

As far as I can see, you are all a damned great bunch of people. My advice to dealing with the hatred and ignorance of 'Concerned' and 'Anonymous' (or JJ?):

"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It only wastes your time and annoys the pig."
- - - Lazarus Long

There's a little of the JJ we remember.

Lady's light on you, dude. I know it looks screwed-up, but we're actually all in this together. :)

Blessed be. :)

Happy SOLTICE today ALL!

Att: "Warm-Heart" Huggs n Kisses to All!

Happy Every Day!

"I" + "i" = LIFE/PHOTONS! A/k/a "OUR-BOOK of TRANSFINITY" , made in America!

Praise the HOLY-NO-MON Lord G-D Allah Isvara YWEH eponymous ECLAT + 'i'! Philosophy & the Ten Fiats of the NEW SONG awareness!

Tonka Shame! < ?: +( .

I'll say this from experience, too, JJ, ...large athames are awkward in ritual, particularly private ritual. I used to make em. I got one around here somewhere, I could dust off. It was made for Renfaires, originally.

Not to say I can't wave one with the best of 'em, but, really.

Like anything involving tools, ...the more you know, the less you need.

Perhaps in the words of Rev. Elliott, we're being 'party poopers' for not being the plastic villians some Christians will try and tell everyone else we are?

From the very first line on that particular website:

"We are not evil. We don't harm or seduce people. We are not dangerous. We are ordinary people like you. We have families, jobs, hopes, and dreams. We are not a cult. This religion is not a joke. We are not what you think we are from looking at T.V. We are real. We laugh, we cry. We are serious. We have a sense of humor. You don't have to be afraid of us. We don't want to convert you. And please don't try to convert us. Just give us the same right we give you--to live in peace. We are much more similar to you than you think." Margot Adler

And Strom Thurmond knows SO much about Paganism. Not.

YES! Wiccan/Pagans worship with 9" Daggers acciording to an investigations:

Please read:

"During a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing last week, Sen. Strom Thurmond, R-S.C., submitted a statement decrying Wicca, a nature-based faith, as irreligious and saying it should not be accommodated by the military.

"Army soldiers who consider themselves to be members of the Church of Wicca are carrying out their ceremonies at Fort Hood in Texas," Thurmond wrote. "The Wiccas practice witchcraft. At Fort Hood, they are permitted to build fires on Army property and perform their rituals involving fire, hooded robes, and nine inch daggers...."

Please See: What the Senoir Seanator was doing about it:

http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/bushwicca.htm

And to get a better feel or learn about the Pre-Apocalyptic PAGAN/WICCAN System (man made, NO POLY G-D's made) system, go:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/witchcra.htm

Thanka Shame!

"Question: Why do Pagans wear 9" inch Daggers???? Is it for Ritual Slaughter???"

No, JJ, we don't 'wear nine inch daggers.' Disingenuous of you to say.

We don't do 'ritual slaughter,' either, (that's a projection of yours) ... because we don't see sacrificial victims as Abrahamics do, ...as 'things' to be 'given' to a 'wrathful God' to 'appease' that God. In the Wiccan tradition where the athame is sometimes used, the 'Dagger' is called an 'athame' and it's a *tool* to representing Will and also the separation of worlds. It's almost always held to be *desanctified* if ever used for a mundane purpose, never mind killing anything.

(And if you'd ever actually lived on a farm and dispatched your own dinner, you'd have some idea what kind of folly it'd be to choose a double-edged knife for the purpose)

In Wicca, the Lady says *explicitly* that she demands nothing of sacrifice, for Her love is poured out on the Earth.

Any more defamation you'd like to perpetrate?

Anyway, Gaby, if you see what I mean. I don't think the universe *denies* a soul the right or possibility of 'being' male or female or whatever, ...all you have to do is learn *how.* And if you don't need *just one lifetime and/or race to Apocalypse to do it in,* you find you just don't need to get as hung-up on definitions as Christian society tells you you *need* to be.

To me, this doesn't involve the Lord and Lady, or even *any* God being defined by *our* squishy bits. Our squishy bits are one thing among many that can help us connect.

Dualism is more about *us* than Them. And there's nothing wrong with that.

But it's not *everything.*

I'm bisexual in this life. I need no spiritual *excuse* to love my partner.

It just is. And blessed be.

Pagans hold that our souls and lives are about *learning,* and *improving,* not insisting on a single life that must be judged, or even an ongoing one that must be 'defined and justified.'

Sexuality, being dear to us and to-some-teachings mysterious and shameful, is often played upon for dominion by some, and challenging to some others of us.

The idea 'Everyone *should* be straight cause a God' says so, hardly makes sense if it takes all that slapping-around to maintain the *illusion* of universal heterosexuality, only with, of course, countless 'deviants' who must be 'disrupting the unity' by... not being that way.

Some will say, 'If everyone was gay, the species would end! Which would somehow mess with my Apocalypse where the world ends tomorrow, anyway!'

This usually misses or ignores the simple observation, 'Umm... You may be conflicted, yourself, but, clearly, everyone is *not* gay. Not even close.'

Which feeds back into this holiday 'controversy' ... In binary thinking, perhaps, 'Everyone not being Christian means no one is Christian! Gay people not losing their joint property when one dies with their partner shut away from visiting them on their deathbed, 'degrades my marriage!'

Kind of like some say, "If the holiday greeting of this time doesn't *mandatorily* include a reference to Christ, then 'PC' people are oppressing me!'

The JJ we remember, I always saw as a true visionary: a guy who'd experienced 'Big God,' ...right down to the shape of spacetime, the velocity C and other things that *are* the shape of the living universe.

Of course, like some humans will, he had to elaborate, ....start categorizing 'Eclati-On' vs 'Eclati-Off,' ....that's not just dualistic, that's *binary.* On-off. Like a digital thing.

Then of course, it gets down to labeling who and what is 'on' and 'off,' and next thing you know, penises are involved.

Humans and souls aren't binary, we're holographic. Fractal, even. Quantum. Right where Einstein got hung up about the 'Mind of God,' was where he couldn't accept *uncertainty and diversity*

No one ever said religion had to 'swing for the fences: 'Ultimate or nothing,' 'Always-right or nothing,'

This is where the Abrahamics are way behind us, or, maybe, way off the track and thinking they're ahead.

Whatever else can be said, the world's too cool to be that picky. As are the Gods. As is the Great Mother, as are *us.*

Spend your life staring at a 'bright light,' then curse the darkness when you can only see spots, that's what some end up saying.

Kind of a waste, but everything in its time.

We can do better right now, though.

Pagans have Multi Female Goddesses [Deity(s)] and many man Godds that OSORIS of AEGYPT & BAAL of SYRIA & Athenites & Romanitews & celticites & Nodicites & Hashimites & Canaanites ....!

All are SuperStupisStitious IMPORTED Religion that is 'POISON' and belongs to someone Pre-Apocalyptic dead folk!

Pagans worship "NECROLOGY" aka "Nec'Roman'ly' [Worship & speak with DEAD folk, Anscetors via 'hex's, Voodo like behavior & Shamona blends like! It's a Savage religion & Pagans are Big Mass Murderer's from times past!

PS: PAGANS/WICCANS are mostly Gay's & are a Front to connect INTERNATIONALLY [in Secret] with other Nations Pagans/Wiccans homosexuals Lesbian's.

VOTE: Abolish All Pre-Apocalyptic Imported Religions & their Copy cat one's too, in sweet Sweet U.S. of A.. and Be ,

yes, finally be all that you can be, once & forever , in TRUE 'mono Religion !!

Behold: The "HOLY COSMIC FEELERS FAITH!" via the "O.U.R. Book of TRANSFINITY" , yes, & beyond!

May XTRA Photons (LIFE) shine on America's Bravest, Finest, Smartest, & heartiest, AND friendly's , whom are defending the Holy Cosmic REPUBLIC of Sweet sweet Momma Poppa SPACE SHIP PLANET EARTH. aka S.S. GAIA, aka S.S. TELLUS ngsomething , Ya Ya!

ALL JEW's are PAGAN worshippers & have POLY Deity Religion, also Christians, also Islamic, also Hindu's, also Buddhist's, et al!

So they , aka YOU-ALL, have a POLY (more than one) THEISTIC (Dety/Supernatural(s) Angel(s), hot & cold world(s), prodigal wingy thingy or Lightning throwing jins or G-ds etc..) Religion(s)!

You have zero genuine American Made, TRUE genuine MONO THEO PHILOSOPHY! Only ECLATi-On of the JOKTAN humate Race is come to be such and thus LIBERATE the WORLD from IT's Pre-Apocalyptic Dillussions!

We are come to destroy ALL Ancient Pre-Apocalyptic Religions not made in America!

Acsually we are going to DEPORT all of the foreing made in intervenors, like the VATICAN's Arch [Homosexual] Dioces Roam [un] Holy Catholic Church & dirivitives or copy cats or..., in all America 1st! do not be in denial!

You are mostly gay & love being troublemakers & Anti-American!! Move & take your Imported Pagan System back to it's Celtic & Anglo-Saxon origin, or like back to Aegypt, Greece, Rome, India, Persia minor & major, Tibet, African jungles or Indonesia or Malaysia etc..

Behold: The "OUR-BOT", aka

"O.ne U.niversal R.eligion Book of Transfinity" of the HOLY COSMIC FEELERS FAITH!

Ah, LIFE [PHOTONS] is so beautifull with Eclati-On(s) & never with the OFF(s)!

Once "i" was a Caterpillar, but now "i" am a Butterfly"! Same as: Once "i" was lost but now "i" am a Found! Ya Ya!

Please Pagan's, stop running around naked in front of kid's of Strangers & neighbors & friends! Shame Shame.

Question: Why do Pagans wear 9" inch Daggers???? Is it for Ritual Slaughter???

"i" thought Aladin Lamp guys like Osama bin Ladin et al does!????

Hi, Gaby. I wouldn't say, certainly, that it's a common *Pagan* idea that souls are biologically-deterministic about sexual dimorphism: it's really probably nothing so mystical, causationwise. Like our nearest evolutionary cousins, and many other animals on Earth, there's a complex interplay of diverse sexuality already inherent to the species in the bodies and brains from at the very least, a young stage of early development... probably trying to cram everyone into a singular idea of 'Acceptable ways to be' is what causes all the discord and disharmony, not an idea 'Souls are really essentially biologically-male and female and any different sexuality means these are souls in the wrong body.'

We have a saying, 'She Changes Everything She Touches, And Everything She Touches, Changes.'

This has to do with a common Pagan idea of souls and rebirths in the first place: in the words of some Druids, the point of the progress of a soul is 'To experience life in all aspects...'

We're far more likely to say the point of being a queer woman is *to experience being a queer woman,* than to wonder, 'What went wrong according to Christian preconceptions of how humans are *supposed* to be, when humans are clearly *not* like this.

Wicca, for instance, appears to be *stridently* heterosexual, on the face of it, but why so many queer people in it? Cause there are many *shapes* of polarity, and, more than that, there's actually no Wiccan theological basis to say that just cause we may see the Lord and Lady as a straight couple, doesn't mean They don't have *gay kids, too.*

Some Pagans have long held that the soul is androgynous or hermaphroditic, as we would understand it from this point of view. I tend to say that these forms are in flux, and the essence of a soul is nothing so mundane.

Hi Lepi and Draco,

Good responses to Jacob's posts. I have no clue why he is so homophobic, especially since he believes in Eclat. Source one has no concept of sex and could care less. We believe that our "essence" (soul?) will always be inherently male or female.

My daughter believes in reincarnation and thinks that gay people are those whose essence is trapped in the wrong body. Sounds as logical an explanation as I've heard.

Best advice I can give you is to ignore him when he gets ugly. I know it's a hard thing to do when you feel personally attacked, but.....

Jacob, my friend, please at least try to be respectful if you can't be nice. OK????

MM, Draco: ....don't worry about JJ, there, he's obviously down to trolling for attention.

I'd disagree with the statement: "If your religion is non-Abrahamic, it's Pagan." ...Categorically, no, ...Buddhists don't consider themselves 'Pagan,' ....Hindu people also don't, partly cause that word in the old sense was used to marginalize them under the Raj, I think... Likewise with Confucians and most tribal people. The word's come to represent something a bit different; frankly I think our own diversity is big enough we don't need to define ourselves in terms of Abrahamics.

Besides, JJ there, incoherent as he always seems and often is, is referring to *some* form of Abrahamic religion, ...seems he's combined something he took from Mormon missionaries with what must once have been a substantial literacy.

I do suspect he just has no *filters* now, and absorbs even the hate and homophobia we see in places like this. He used to be very nice.

And for those who've been told what he's saying, no, while Pagans don't have big nudity-shame, no, we don't 'run around naked in front of kids.' That's just another slander we hear too often.

Yaknow, JJ?

"Are there heart-strings connected
To the poison coming out of your mouth?
Are you super-connected, now?" --Belly

Anonymous:
**Most Pagans/Wiccans are gay!**

And your source for this statistic is?

**Pagans run around naked in front of their friends & their own kids??**

Not all of us. Pagans do, however, tend to have a healthier perspective on nudity than the average person.
We don't go about exposing ourselves to strangers and we don't go skyclad around people who aren't comfortable with it. And we don't go around naked all the time, for goodness sakes.
We understand the difference between being comfortable in your own skin and impinging on other people's sense of modesty and privacy. I may conduct my private rituals skyclad, but I do wear clothing when it's appropriate.
And I certainly have no problem with my daughter seeing me naked, nor she does not feel uncomfortable undressing in front of me. And while neither her dad nor my husband have ever been the type to go au naturel, even around the house, she did walk in on her dad when he was bathing when she was small, so she's known what a penis was since she was four. She asked what "that" was, he told her it was called a penis and it was what boys and men used to pee, and asked her to please leave the bathroom, close the door, and let him finish his bath - no freaking out, no hysterics, just calm and matter-of-fact.
the other day, she got off work early, and when she came home, walked into my bedroom to find me and my husband enjoying a bit of afterglow. She said, "Oops. Sorry." and pulled our door shut behind her. No cries of "Ewwww!," no embarassment, just a matter-of-fact acknowledgement of the fact that her unexpected arrival did not necessitate our throwing on clothes and pretending that we don't do "that" anymore, while at the same time respecting the fact that my husband is much more modest than I am, especially where she is concerned.
This may come as a shock to you, but even after 17 years of seeing her mother in various stages of undress, she likes BOYS! And because she is no stranger to her own body, she knows how to make them look her in the eyes, instead of talking to her breasts.