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om2c4U U cool ))

om2c4U U cool ))

om2c4U U cool ))

Torture is absolutely and unequivocally wrong, always and for any reason.

I say the same thing about cannibalism, which was popular all over the world for a long time as well.

It's easy to agree with me about cannibalism because the majority agrees. The odd few who practice it now are considered criminals in every nation. This particular barbarism has been legislated almost out of existence.

A civil society is based on laws respecting human rights, which are natural (or God-given) and therefore inherent and inalienable. People who harm others are criminals. They must be prevented from continuing to harm, so they lose precious freedom. But as a civilized society, we do not condone cruel and unusual punishment for even the worst criminals.

Torture is obviously cruel. It's also unusual, because before Bush & Co took over, very few Americans would have expressed support for torture. You could make a case for killing and eating someone to save other lives, as some do for torture, but you wouldn't. It's just no longer an accepted practice. Torture was not accepted in our society either, until Bush & Co. said it was.

And here is the crux of the disagreement between matriots and patriots on issues like war and torture:

Christianity requires obedience to a father figure, as well as faith in what he tells you to believe and do. That's why Bush & Co targets this demographic, trained from birth to run with the flock, unaware that their shepherd may lead them to pasture or to slaughter as he sees fit. The shepherd is the authority, the big man, the father figure, the Holy Father, Pope. President.

The father of the "Abrahamic religions" - Christianity, Islam, Judaism - thought God wanted him to kill his son Isaac to prove his faith. Abraham said God told him to do it, but he also said at different times that his wife Sarah was his sister. This led to her being taken as wife by two kings, until plagues and bad dreams prompted them to send her back.

Sarah (Hebrew Sarai, translated variously as woman of high rank, princess, goddess, prophet, high holy one, free woman) had one son - Isaac - whose name means laughter. She didn't believe God's messengers, disguised as three guys, when they told her she would finally get that baby she always wanted. She would be 90 years old, so she laughed when she heard it. Abraham would be 100 and had waited all his life for God to fulfill a promise that he would be the father of nations.

Some father. Isaac went with Abraham, asking, where is the lamb we'll be sacrificing? Abraham said the Lord would provide, built the altar, laid the wood, then bound up his son and laid him out as a human sacrifice. Isaac lay still, ever obedient to his old man's authority - or maybe he was paralyzed by shock and fear when he realized Abraham's big lie and murderous intent. Abraham was poised to bring down his knife when an angel called out to stop. Prevented from killing his son, Abraham found a ram nearby and slaughtered it instead. Mission accomplished.

Today many of Abraham's troublesome descendents are willing to sacrifice their children to the army, and their children are willing to go. Originally they all wanted to kill bin Laden, a Saudi, but apparently Iraqis will do.

Different interpretations of this story say that Abraham did kill Isaac, who later rose from the dead, but not before his mother Sarah had died from grief.

People have interpreted these fables lots of different ways, but essentially, Abraham heard voices that told him to kill. Even in the days of Genesis, killing a beloved son was not normal behavior, and today it would rightly put the perpetrator in jail. Abraham had something to prove and nothing else mattered - not Isaac and his life, not Sarah and the loss of her only son, not the multitudes who would never be born of Isaac's seed.

Somehow these patriots have missed the whole point of the story: Abraham was wrong. God did not give life to the child so the old man could take it - whatever claim the man made to justify his actions, whatever voices he thought he heard, whatever his personal aspirations to get into heaven.

Somehow these patriots have also missed the point of the American Constitution, the Bill of Rights, civil rights and other laws that are the foundation of a civilized and enlightened society.

There is no reasoning with a guy like Abraham, or a patriot who thinks torture is OK, or a war profiteer making money by the truckload, or a parent who is proud to send their child to kill or be killed. They follow the leader, ignore the facts, fear the worst, disrespect the lives of others, and propogate the delusion that this is a defensive war.

Those of us who know that the great white father in Washington is dishonorable will continue to work for peace. We'll continue to speak out against torture for any reason, and we will continue to legislate out of existence the death cults that glorify war, jihad, suicide bombs, torture, and human sacrifice (Isaac and Jesus Christ).

i agree with paganplace- talk is cheap

http://ga3.org/tjp/home.html

Mad: well quoted!

"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."
-Upton Sinclair

Nocked that one out of the park, no?

All this said, I have to wonder *where's the outrage.*

Some will speak sanctimoniously about the matter, but still remain silent when the religious conservatives in government tell them to look the other way and get fussed about some minority wanting to get married, or have equal representation in their own government, or get married, while important facets of our American law, like habeas corpus, like posse comitatus, even the judicial system itself and the checks and balances and separation of powers that help *prevent* this kind of brutality, ...are done away with or compromised, be it quietly or brazenly.

We seem to spend a lot of time on this forum being told by fundamentalist Christians and others that we aren't 'morally qualified' to speak for our own rights and those of others, but I think there's few better. Especially those that have been on the receiving end of the xenophobia and threats and abuses and even hysteria that the people who want to support and cover up torture by our own government also seem to want to promote.

We've heard people accuse us of "being with the terrorists" for not calling *all* Muslims 'terrorists,' and it doesn't take a genius to see where *that* could go.

We've heard people claim we 'have no morals' because we don't think it's good or right to hurt gay people over Christians' religious beliefs, heard people say our soldiers don't deserve chaplains, our dead don't deserve headstones, ...even heard people claim it's some kind of child abuse for their kids to read anything that *doesn't* condemn us as 'evil...'

Even claim we don't know 'forgiveness' while supporting war and torture and injustice... claiming we're 'unamerican,' while using their belief in a 'Christian Nation' to sell out these most basic and essential of our American rights and values and principles.

I, for one, know just how fragile and precious these rights can be... And how Christian beliefs are no real protection against the abuse of them.

Good people doing nothing is the real threat.

america still has the death penalty-

if its willing to kill its own citizens, it's not a great stretch to torturing 'others'

ive watched the twisting that occurs when people enconuter these unpleasant, but wholly latent(in all of us) human tendecies to subjugate our fellow humans

as a lifelong pacifist, i never found a satisfactory answer as to what action to take if an aggressor is, for instance, killing a baby.

i just sat and fed my 3 week old abandoned kitten with a bottle- its a very gentle and peaceful occupation-
but i sit in safety because someone somewhere is protecting me-
just saying soemthing is wrong- isnt the same as a developed construction of how to act rightly

it is like telling a child to 'be good'.
it is not enough
you have to instruct the child as to what goodness actually is- or it is a pointless command which only makes the person telling them that feel as if theyve done something, when theyve done nothing but add confusion

so, now we know what NOT to do, logically- there should be a discussion on what TO DO-

hers is a short list (by no means comprehensive or representative of the entire compendium)
of treatment of combatans in isalmic jurisprudence

naturally, and withou exception, all non-combatants are not to be touched or aggressed upon at all.

this is real islam, not foxnews propoganda
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
The Rights Of Combatants

Now let us see what rights Islam has conferred on the combatants.

1. Torture by fire

In the Hadith there is a saying of the Prophet that: "Punishment by fire does not behoove anyone except the Master of the Fire" (AbuDawood). The injunction deduced from this saying is that the adversary should not be burnt alive.

2. Protection of the wounded

"Do not attack a wounded person" said the Prophet. This means that wounded soldiers who are not fit to fight, nor actually fighting, should not be attacked.

3. Prisoners of war should not be slain

"No prisoner should be put to the sword" ¾ a very clear and unequivocal instruction given by the Prophet.

4. No-one should be tied to be killed

"The Prophet has prohibited the killing of anyone who is tied or is in captivity."

5. No looting and destruction in the enemy's country

Muslims have been instructed by the Prophet not to pillage or plunder or destroy residential areas, nor harm the property of anyone not fighting. It has been narrated in the Hadith: "The Prophet has prohibited the Believers from loot and plunder" (Bukhari, AbuDawood). His injunction is: "The loot is no more lawful than the carrion" (AbuDawood). AbuBakr Siddeeq used to tell soldiers on their way to war: "Do not destroy the villages and towns, do not spoil the cultivated fields and gardens, and do not slaughter the cattle."

Booty of war from the battleground is altogether different. It consists of the wealth, provisions and equipment captured from the camps and military headquarters of the combatant armies and may legitimately be appropriated.

6. Sanctity of property

Muslims have been prohibited from taking anything from the general public of a conquered country without paying for it. If the Muslim army occupies an area of the enemy country, it does not have the right to use the things belonging to the people without their consent. If the army needs anything, it should purchase it from the local population or should obtain permission from the owners. AbuBakr Siddeeq used to tell Muslim armies being dispatched to the battle-from that they should not even use the milk of the cattle without the permission of the owners.

7. Sanctity of a dead body

Islam has categorically prohibited its followers from mutilating the corpses of their enemies, as was practised in Arabia before the advent of Islam. It is said in the Hadith: "The Prophet has prohibited us from mutilating the corpses of the enemies" (Bukhari, AbuDawood). The occasion on which this order was given is highly instructive. In the battle of Uhud the disbelievers mutilated the bodies of the Muslims who had fallen on the battlefield by cutting off their ears and noses and threading them together to put round their necks as trophies of war. The stomach of Hamza, the uncle of the Prophet, was ripped open by the Quraysh and his liver was taken out and chewed by Hinda, the wife of AbuSufyan, the leader of the Makkan army. The Muslims were naturally enraged by this horrible sight. But the Prophet asked his followers not to mete out similar treatment to the dead bodies of the enemies.

This great example of forbearance and restraint should be sufficient to convince any reasonable man that Islam really is the religion sent down by the Creator of the universe; if Islam allowed human emotions free rein, this horrible sight on the battlefield of Uhud would have provoked the Prophet to order his followers to mutilate the bodies of their enemy in the same manner.

8. Return of corpses of the enemy

In the battle of Ahzab a renowned enemy warrior was killed and his body fell into the trench which the Muslims had dug for the defence of Madina. The unbelievers presented ten thousand Dinars to the Prophet and requested that the dead body of their fallen warrior be handed over to them. The Prophet replied: "I do not sell dead bodies. You can take away the corpse of your fallen comrade."

9. Prohibition of breach of treaties

Islam has strictly prohibited treachery. One of the instructions that the Prophet used to give to Muslim warrior when sending them to the battlefront was: "Do not be guilty of breach of faith. "This order has been repeated in the Holy Qur’an and the Hadith again and again. there is a famous incident in the peace treaty of Hudaybiya when, after the settlement of the terms of the treaty, AbuJandal, the son of the emissary of the unbelievers who had negotiated the treaty with the Muslims, came bound and blood-stained to the Muslim camp crying for help. The Prophet told him: "Since the terms of the treaty have been settled, we are not in a position to help you. You should go back with your father. God will provide you with some other opportunity to escape this persecution."

The entire Muslim army was deeply touched and grieved at the plight of AbuJandal and many of them were moved to tears. But when the Prophet declared "we cannot break the agreement," not a single person came forward to help the unfortunate prisoner; so the unbelievers forcibly dragged him back to Makkah. This is an unparalleled example of the observance of the terms of agreement by Muslims; Islamic history can show many similar examples.

10. Rules about declaration of war

It has been laid down in the Holy Qur’an: "If you apprehend breach of treaty from a people, then openly throw the treaty at their faces" (8:58). In this verse, Muslims have been prohibited from opening hostilities against their enemies without properly declaring war against them, unless, of course, the adversary has already started the aggression. Present-day 'international law' has also laid down that hostilities should not be started without declaration of war, but since this is a man-made rule, it is often disregarded. Muslim laws, on the other hand, have been framed by Allah and may not be disregarded.

this doesnt address the treatment of prisoners of war-

there is no torture allowed in islam
period.
period.
unequivocally

even issues such as the environment and animals come under scrutiny

even a tree can be destroyed in war
peace

Just a note, everyone - Witch, Wicca or Wicce, and Pagan should be capitalized, thanks, as should Goddess.

Starhawk is correct - there is never an excuse for torture. There is no Jack Bauer who is going to save the world by roughing up a suspect. Torture is !00% ineffective. It doesn't work. Period. The ony thing is accomplishes is in destroying our humanity. The harm it does both to the torturer and the tortured are too costly to our society. We need leaders who understand that. We need to oppose it unequivocally.

If we can't stand against torture in all forms with a definitive and resolute refusal to tolerate it, we simply are not civilized. We have to have the strength to resist it now matter how great our fear might be. When we are afraid our reptilian brain causes us to react rather than think. We need to be brave and use our mammalian empathy and our human mind to do what we know is right.

Terra.

I get your point and agree with it to some extent. While I don’t agree with going to war there is no doubt that those serving in the armed forces are making a special sacrifice for the country. It goes back to the old saying. If there were no more soldiers how could a country go to war? If enough people said no, even a government mandated draft would fail. You couldn’t put everyone in jail.

I guess my main point is giving your life for a cause while not hurting others is different than giving (or potentially) giving life or limb for a cause and killing people. I find the latter counter productive in the long run. Killing and hate only creates more killing and hate. The only way to overcome war is through peace and compassion.

Of course the argument will always be what if we took that approach with Nazi Germany? Would they not have over run the whole world and indeed end up with their version of the superior race?

Can we ever say there is no case for war… ever! I don’t know that I currently posses the level of wisdom need to answer that question.

The only real solution I can see is heading off the issues that lead to the rise of Nazi Germany or other such regimes. Perhaps the communication tools (internet) we have today compared to back then and the UN, as dysfunctional as it is can help.

Knowledge and choice is what is needed. If we provide violence or force as the only choice then what choice do we give our enemies?

Rob.

Rob,

I agree.. and your post made me think of something that's been lurking in the back of my brain for awhile.. Why is it that a lot people in this country seem to hold up those who died in such a battle far higher than those who live and return home? In everything I've learned about war, most people don't go there expecting to die. Don't all people deserve to be honored?

Torture or killing is an extremely slippery slope. What is the stopping point? Torturing one man to save thousands? Killing one man to save thousands? Killing 10 to save 10,000?

Nuking 200,000 to save a million?

Seeing that we a re a Christina nation by demographics I would like to sight the idea of dying for our ideas.

Today when we send our soldiers any where to fight for what we stand for we consider that willing to die for a cause. What we have failed to realize is this is not quite true. In the interim I am killing others and if I am good enough and lucky enough I have not died for my cause but killed others to fight for my cause. This is actually called killing for a cause.

I am not sure when it became popular to die for your cause but only if you failed to kill those you were fighting. The early Christians died for their cause by not denying their belief. They allowed others to kill them if the need be, but they would not raise up a finger to the aggressor. That is dying for a cause.

You define yourself by your actions.

If you want a world where the best killer succeeds, then kill. If you want a world where money rules, then support economics over values.

Defeating ‘evil’ and hate can only be resolved by love, not by force. To get rid of the opposite of what you want, you need to create more of what you want. This plays out in physics and in life. Simple physics shows you do not get rid of matter with more matter. You need anti-matter.

Through out history life has shown that force, killing and more hate does not get rid of hate, it simply creates more hate, more fighting and more killing.

We create our own reality by our actions. If you want peace, be peaceful. If you want compassion, be compassionate.

To quote Gandhi “There is no way to peace, peace is the way”.

Vie,
I agree...how can people who say they honor a god of peace and that tout their morals as better then others...and those who say they honor the individual believe that torture is ok in anyway?

How can Americans, who are inheritors of the fight for justice and human rights, even contemplate torture? How can our honor allow us to go against our own signatures on the Convention Against Torture and the Geneva Convention. That not just our President and Vice President can be held for Crimes against humanity...but so can our nation. Germany was seen by other nations to have acquiesced to what it's leaders did. To many people Germany was a nation that cheered at the death camps and the ovens. Why? They had a democratic election...those leaders were elected. As was ours.

Are we going to do away with 200+ years of history, of our people fighting and dying for what we, as a nation were built on?

People that say it does not matter who the president, legislature and judges are, are crazy. It matters...there is a difference in "values."

Who are we?

terra

Frankly, I have a hard time taking anyone who claims there is any religious or humanistic justification for torture seriously.

Well, I think that's where we are...

I've discussed some concern the idea of 'loving your neighbor as yourself' when our society teaches us anything *but* to love ourselves... It's profoundly distressing to on the one hand have people claiming *my* people can't possibly have any morals, thus deserve any repression meted out... by people who claim their *God* is supposed to torture us.

Notice how these views tend to coincide?

This is one thing where personally- 'loving our neighbor' doesn't work so well if our own government a) tries to justify torture, while b) keeping it a secret, and c) redefining it so what they won't say they're doing is supposed to be OK.

This is dehumanization of others of the worst order, and it runs to the quick of so many societal problems.

It's not as though we aren't all Americans who'd defend each other. Well, I'd hope. There's no valor or glory or even safety in torturing people... Only a loss of soul which can lead to people turning a blind eye to everything from private armies with religious Fundamentalist ties to the daily abuses of our society that get lost in the frenzy to scorn those who are different or unacceptable to those in power hove done their best to *numb* our sense of morality while directing the people's attention and fear to those who really are harming no one.

Or even to scare people into dealing with 'enemies' in ways that don't *work,* but create the degradations that come with their endless wars.

Paganplace,

You said:
"I do not want violence. I will never provoke it. But if threatened, or if my neighbor (including you) is threatened, then my claymore is at hand. But talk first. Fighting is the absolute last resort."

Just. Put it down. I would sooner fight in your stead than see this twisting of what you say you believe, Arminius.

Paganplace, please explain how I have twisted my beliefs.

The claymore is a symbol - the symbol of freedom in the hands of William Wallace. But if you were my neighbor, and were threatened, I would be there to help. And I would be unarmed. Yet I am no pacifist - I will defend me and mine, if absolutely necessary.

Yes, a sword can cause horrible wounds. So can bullets. Worse ones, really.

Plan B? Love your neighbor as yourself.

Respectfully,

Arminius

>>"If America falls, it will *not* be cause someone didn't smack a detainee hard enough."

Tom Cruise in the trailer of "Lions for Lambs": "Do you want to win the War on Terror, Yes or No?"

Problem is, what do we mean by "win"? How to you stop 'terror', or terrorism, which can never have an endpoint and is fuelled by violence? The suggested option is to use torture, pre-emptive war, bugging US citizens etc.

If we bring terror attacks down to a minimal level by doing this, but in the process turn into a country of Muslim-hating, paranoid war-mongering torturers, that *doesn't count as a win*. (I include the US and UK here).

If we turn into the monsters our enemies say we are, THEY win. And the violence never ends.

And yes, the "for us or against us" good/evil worldview from dry-alcoholic born-again Bush is *exactly* responsible for getting us here. It has nothing to do with Jesus, or real Christians, or compassion.

I'm just picturing someone trying to sell "Blessed are the poor and the peacemakers" to Dick Cheney, or any of the current Administration.

In the meantime: Schmooze, P/A, etc? Neopagans aren't pro-torture, no matter what threat or patriotism you try to justify it with. Give it up. The official verdicts from everyone who would know (CIA, MI6, official bodies) is that torture is unreliable and does more harm to the struggle than help it. Even if I didn't reject it on its own principles, it's not even practical for saving lives. Find another way.

Frankly, they have lumber and ocular membrane issues.

Gets to a certain measure of, lead, follow, or get out of the way.

We don't have time for this right now.

You go girl! I would chime in with more, but you seem to be covering all the bases. All I can say is that if these people don't realize that they are at total odds with everything Jesus said, they might as will poke their own eyes out with a stick.

This basically means, will everyone who believes *again* that theirs is the last generation on Earth before the Apocalypse, please step to the right, if you haven't already vociferously done so.

If you think this solely because the Mayan calendar actually *is* due to run out this time and can cool your jets for five years, particularly without thinking that it's very important to torture people before the imminent certain global doom that some may mistake for their personal mortality, please raise your hands and step out if you don't have a notion to go hurting someone in order to try and save your own metaphysical keister.

Good.

To the rest of us, I say.

The situation's a little bit grim. Well, very grim.

Actually, completely insane.

Frankly, everyone's bugging. In unproductive ways.

I, personally, for mystical reasons I don't care to explain or defend, assert that it'd be a pretty good idea if certain lines were not crossed, whatever the outcome.

One of those lines would be, 'Don't torture people.'

It may be an irony for me to say, since Christians are always insisting, 'No amount of suffering is too much... for you to go through for your marriage not happening to be straight and Christian,' in case it made me somehow feel my marriage wasn't 'sanctified' enough, but hey.

Here's the 4-1-1.

If America falls, it will *not* be cause someone didn't smack a detainee hard enough.

It'll be cause someone thought that was real.

If America lives, it'll be cause *we* believe in Liberty. Cause *we* care about Her more than anything like how comfy we are, or how secure we feel slapping detainees around.

People that tell us we can compromise these ideals in the name of our flag, don't lead us to any good end.

But, we can choose. Not me, not Terra, not Starhawk, certainly not George W. Bush or Dick Cheney or Bill O'Reilly.. Us.

We.

America.

We can choose.

So happens that 'will we OK torture' is one of those lines that people have a real hard time coming back from. Know why? Cause it's *too shameful to ever admit you did without some grand justification.*

Torture.

If you want to do this....

Look at it.

Look.

This is not us.

And if torture *is* us, *we don't deserve to win.* Whatever people think we *would* win.

Look at it.

Just.

Look.

At.

It.

If you don't believe we torture, then demand to look at our 'not-torture.'

Do you know? I don't.

People saying it's treasonous to *want* to know, though, well, hey.

You don't need a big IQ to see where *that* goes.

Christians.

Who say we got 'no morals.'

You wouldn't last a *day* in our morals, the most of you.

I suppose, Terra, that we are quite used to dealing with injury, and when insult is added, it may prove annoying, when hings are taken political. I, for one, am tired of receiving both.

People claiming 'moral superiority' is one thing, but to me, if this means both letting sick children duffer for circumstances of birth, as well as feeling it's OK to torture people... all while calling ourselves 'immoral' (apparently for lack of anything better to do) ....

Well, no.

I say, if people want to use oblique reasoning to try and define *us* as the bad guys while defending torture, well...

Just maybe taking on the name 'Witch' has a little something to it.

They want their 'lawyers, guns, and money,' but... We just live, Terra.

Not like I never had a daughter, ...had that daughter held for ransom by people who had...certain ideas..... but... Hey, we're the Rebel Alliance. The more they try to tighten their grasp, the more worlds will slip through their fingers.

That's people.

Talk around here, and the Christians will try and say they're the sole repositories of a virtue they somehow never manage to express.

We yet live.
Nothing's forgotten.

Right?

I may not be the exemplary priestess, but, if Themselves could find me where I was, we have no need for fear.

These people are afraid.

Don't know what it'll come to, but we gotta be the big kids. The brats are bugging. Ready or not, here we are.

Ain't that just like the Lady, though.

Most of what these 'holy rollers' call uncontestable, well... It's horrid. Isn't it?

May not be our battle to win, this one. Gods know you can't tell these people anything.

Ready or not, Lady, it's on us to be ready with what comes next. They wanna drive this puppy into the ground we pick up the pieces. This is the story. We even shut up, if absolutely necessary, not that this is a time for shutting up. :)

And, hey, you might get to meet me, soon. But that's another story. :)

What is worse then the outright violence is the subtle bone pricking of hate. Judges that favor the Christian against the Pagan in child visitation. The Virginia judge making the Wiccan Dad give up practicing his faith when the child was there...not have his books, or Wiccan friends, nor wear his Wiccan religious symbol, nor take part in any observance of Wiccan holidays.

A young Wiccan Mom gets bomb threats to blow up her business and home , so leaves the town with her honor student son.

A Wiccan Mom goes to the school board to try to get teaching aids for her autistic son. They discover she is Wiccan and her son is taken from her, placed in an institution and while she is fighting to get him back, he dies.

It goes on and on. People distrust us and think the worse,many do not want to know us..it is so much fun to think the worse. But Goddess bless..there are those like some here On Faith that are different, and I appreciate the leap opf faith it took for them to take us at our words...literaly.

There will always be dimbulbs...and for us it is often like dipping the water out of the swamp with a teaspoon...But I think each spoon is closer to draining the swamp.

In your face violence is easier to take then the ugly mind set of hate. I have my Athame...yes it is the symbol meaning things can cut both ways...but also a symbol of balance and energy...that is never to cut life.

terra

Heh. Guess Plan B is up to you, ennit? :)

"I do not want violence. I will never provoke it. But if threatened, or if my neighbor (including you) is threatened, then my claymore is at hand. But talk first. Fighting is the absolute last resort."

Just. Put it down. I would sooner fight in your stead than see this twisting of what you say you believe, Arminius.

'Get behind me, Satan, this sucka's mine.'

Seriously.

I never said you weren't kin.

I may be sick at the heart at all the violence of this world. But I will count coup with my digging stick, rather than see you defend violence itself, never mind swing steel when you have no heart for or knowing of it.

If that isn't enough, no violence will help your faith.

You speak of a claidh mor, yet you say you are more 'forgiving.'

This isn't about that.

This is about madness.

It's not the first madness we've been party to, and it won't be the last, until people can accept the situation and be human.

A claymore will cut a human like a side of beef. It's not pretty, it's not romantic, and it doesn't prove a Gosforsaken thing.

Choose.

a) Leave my people alone. b)

Paganplace,

Jesus is not 'proof against violence'. He did not want violence. He died a horrible death to prove that. He truly is the Prince of Peace. What a damn tragedy that so many 'Christians' cannot see that. It makes me weep.

I do not want violence. I will never provoke it. But if threatened, or if my neighbor (including you) is threatened, then my claymore is at hand. But talk first. Fighting is the absolute last resort.

True Christians know that violence is bad. I am glad to be reassured that Pagans do too, but I never doubted it.

All people deserve protection, and our help. Religion must be accepting, not exclusive. If it is exclusive, then it is a dictatorship.

Aaarrrgh.

Now to the REALLY important stuff! I did figure out you were from Beantown. Now, I am a National League freak, and hold, as a 'religious' principle, that your AL rule of the DH is an abominable heresy. But I have a lasting love of the Red Sox Nation, for they brought down the Evil Empire in 2004! Lord, what grand baseball that was!

Religion in baseball? Sorta. Try this:
"When I go into a ballpark, I feel that I am surrounded by angels, and God's hand is on my shoulder."
- - - Hammerin' Hank Aaron

Arminius

I mean, hey, though, after all those years of the Bambino curse, then the Sox getting to be a regular team, it was *kinda sweet* to watch the 'Born Again' team the Rockies (whoever they were supposed to be in the first place) get *swept.*

Mind you, a number of people who happen to behave as though, while I'm a base idolater, that their belief their God favors certain sports teams must not be dissed... and who have just so happened to try and make their point by force, and, somehow, by doing things which are 'sin' if *not* done by force against 'heathens' ...Well.

So, the so-very-Christian media wouldn't let me watch the games after they got interesting, but.

I think it's OK to gloat about baseball for a metaphor.

War?

Prolly not.

Arminius: I'm from Boston. We just *did* baseball. :)

Twice, in case anyone was unsure on the point. :)

What I say is that our Jesus is not *proof against violence.* However much you might fear or extoll violence in his name.

I don't think that's what he ever wanted.

We're Pagans. We know violence is bad, cause, Goddess, Mother-of-all-that-grows, ...when we know, we know.

I will say that if you were my neighbor, I would not let anyone hurt you in the way that some Christians feel is necessary for some to hurt others.

I will also say that this is no great magic power or righteous Thing. Just is.

When people say that others don't deserve protection, or that it takes some special and weird dispensation from some God...

I say...

Liars.

I may not proclaim I 'love my neighbor' and then express that backwards through political power.

Some sincere Christians have called me a Good Samaritan, if not an angel.
I can live with that.

If you can.

Capiche?

Paganplace,

I'm having trouble with your words. What is apparent is that there is suffering there, you have seen things that I have not - and I do not want to know what they are. I sense a bitterness and a bit of defensive behavior. I also sense that this is not unearned. Feel free to stomp on me if I am wrong.

Hell, most people, not just us Christians, will tend to stand back and 'not get involved'. Which, of course, goes against most religious or moral codes. And the fat, happy populace is content to view war as something on the news that does not touch them... 'Switch channels to football, please...'

Aaarrgh.

At least switch to baseball.

Arminius

But, hey... if *you* had swords and woad, what would *you* do if you saw this coming? :)

That, I'll be a good sport about, if you will. :)

That's what I guess my Buddhist friends call a 'private peeve,' but I think it's very public.

Conservatives talk about *violence* like it's some abstraction.

It. Is. Not.

Gods help you if you know what I'm talking about, but, really.

I don't say this cause I've never seen such things.

I say it because I have.

Well, Arminius, it's one consistently-misunderstood thing about Wicca, that the athame is a 'sacrificial' knife, .. it's not. It's a reminder to us that Will not only *is* sharp, but also, as we say in old Boston: Cuts both ways.

Too many liberal and 'moderate' Christians think the talk of swords and wars is 'metaphor,' then get freaked out beyond reckoning when someone lives down to the talk.

Talk about 'war' like it's not *war,* but rather a metaphor for theology that somehow makes 'I don't want to pay my taxes, so I'll blame the poor when children suffer: Lobbyists can have M-60s, but sommon folk can't walk with a stick while we tell others they are evil embodied.'

And so many who apologize for sanctified abuse and greed act *utterly bewildered* when people get angry enough to 'fight back' in a way that makes sense to *their* myth.

My experience of sanctimonious Christians is that they gawk... at best, when their own society results in someone getting cut up, bleeding all over the neighborhood, ...then they look to Pagans to sort it out when the cops they didn't want to pay don't come.

Paganplace,

Oh, dear Lord. I have not spoken well. The whole thing about woad and swords is a gigantic joke between Wiccan (and I think Lep also) and myself.

We do not come to do violence. We come to sing and dance and drink and feast and celebrate God's glorious Creation. The swords are plastic, or, if metal, suitably dull and for show. The rest is real.

With apologies,

Arminius

See, Arminius, a lot of people are taught to live their lives running scared against shadows that may or may not appear.

One axiom I live by is, 'The bad guys always bring plenty of weapons.'

We do not need to compromise. Really.

Oh, Arminius: No. Just no.

It's not that there isn't a beauty in the dance of blades, but... what it does to a human body.

I've been scared in my life. Really scared. There have been times when my tribes and houses relied on steel, but..

No. We are not supposed to need these things in America.

Conservatives will insist on the right of people to have automatic weapons and say a girl can't carry a *stick.*

Christian police officers will detain and interrogate groups of Pagans cause one with an injured knee was walking with a *cane,*

We do often have swords.

But like any weapon, you need to see past the mystique and know what they *do.*

I'll stay to sticks, myself.

Eh, make your own sentence out of the first paragraph. Christian 'logic' gets that convoluted to me, really.

It's really all about... Someone is getting waterboarded, for dubious returns. In violation of the Geneva Convention and international law, and on the asssumption that if a snotnosed Connecticut WASP playing *cowboy* claims it's OK... that you will *shut up, blame the Pagans, and let it *happen* if you get to do mean things to queers and feel your abusive marriage has 'sanctity...'

While *gutting our American Constitutional system and telling you you *want* things you can't be bothered to examine, cause we're 'Code Orange Scared' all the time....

It's like people saying 'Liberals want to take your quad-linked gun emplacements away, cause, of course, your reality is that a bunch of queers who want health benefits are gonna come make a frontal assault on your suburban homestead...."

I mean... What?

Is it possible that you vote for 'Catastophu**s because that kind of thinking *doesn't actually work?"

Bush calls himseslf a righteous 'Compassionate conservative' while doing the opposite of both, and you get to bash liberals about him being a *liar.*

Rather than face up.

Cause that's *easy,* isn't it.

It's *easy* to say, 'Go ahead and torture people if you say that makes me safe from these things you aren't really protecting us from, anyway......'

Easy.

Not by any means effective, but, *easy.*

Again, I say, you want to torture people, *you look at it.*

You think it's all that important, you watch it, you follow it up, you go ahead and show *just how effective you think it is when you call people 'immoral non-Christian traitors* for saying 'This is *wrong.*

This. Is. Wrong.

Just like what happens to me or my sweetie if one of us dies from not having health care, or even cause someone really thought you could torture a terrorist cell and find out what another terrorist cell is doing.

Gods.

Wake *up.*

Hi, Wiccan, Well Met!

Go put on the woad again, we're gonna need it. My claymore is at hand. Along with Sting, my favorite one-handed sword - the balance on that blade is truly sweet. And don't forget the Guinness!

It's a damn shame that the 'Christians' that get all the promo are the ones mired in the worst passages of Leviticus instead of steeped in the Gospels. But they are the ones with the money, and can make the noise, and thus attract the media. There are a lot of us of the Christian faith that do not shriek and moan and point fingers, but try to live our religion by example.
The true message of Jesus is Love, not fear or hate.

Here is a prayer of St Francis, which sums up the true message of the Christ:

Lord, make me an instrument of Thy peace;
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
and where there is sadness, joy.
O Divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love;
for it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.
Amen.

God bless,

Arminius

Also, just on the past two weeks' questions....

For people who seem to consider themselves so 'superior' for having such a deterministic view of why things people do that harm no one, ...you seem to have an awful tendency to try and prevaricate on how it's OK to a) hurt people you don't know in captvity, and b) let sick children suffer and die cause of some abstract idea of capitalism.

Still unclear on how your 'morals' don't impress us?

"but how come those Christians who would gladly consign me to Hell for not appreciating how Jesus suffered on the cross for me are so willing to make others suffer for them?"

Cause suffering is commerce and commodity to them, really.

*Obviously* they think that it's very important that people suffer and, through inexplicable and unnecessary suffering, confess the 'power' of the torture victim who somehow never managed to get the point of, 'You guys could actually not do this to each other, it does tend to hurt and give people generally-unproductive ideas about ending the world'

One thing I never got about Christians who wouldn't pay taxes, while claiming only Christians deserve a voice in government, ..is their dead-set on-annihilation thing. Seem to say, 'Make all the money you can or we'll make you suffer,' then say 'It's easier for a Camel to go through the eye of a needle, ...unless, apparently, you ensure no one's left behind to call you a bonehead.'

So it's gone a number of centuries.

World's always about to end, no one gives a care cause they think they're outtie as long as they deny life and sex and the future enough and call it 'faith.'

Somehow I'm just not figuring this is the Ultimate Answer, specially after a few lives like that.

Snoozie,
What I was meaning was not that the preachers did not know what they were doing...but doing just what we do...
And We know what to do with the power when it is raised, it's the feeling of raiseing power that I see those folks on TV getting high on. That is what they are focused on, not where they want the energy to go. With the amount of Christians there are, if you all knew how to focus your energies you could bring peace and heal the sick.

It has nothing to do with your God...but in the Will of the congregation.

Stop looking for thinks to whine about.
terra

"Smoozealert shows up"

Hey, it's possible, though uncertain, that someone finally picked a name. And a fitting one, as it seems to amply-demonstrate his priorities.

Merry Meet, Arminius!

Figures. Just when I wash off all the woad, Smoozealert shows up.

Guess we should be grateful, without him we would never know that there are more (supposed) Christians than there are Pagans. I never knew we were in a competition. You were just being sweet not telling us, right? :-)

I know I'm not so smart, being Wiccan and all, but how come those Christians who would gladly consign me to Hell for not appreciating how Jesus suffered on the cross for me are so willing to make others suffer for them?

And, yes, Arminius, I think I know you for having a good heart. I just don't think you always know what you're saying. :)

Most of the 'divil' of issues like this is actually in what you don't think twice about, or actually see for yourselves, if I can be so bold as to say.

Peace.

And, actually, the sex hangup has everything to do with the blowing-the-crap-out-of-innocents thing.

Humans really aren't as awful as monotheists seem to need to believe, just, you tie a man's member in a knot, and, it'll usually come out ugly.

Real ugly.

I mean, sorry if that was a bit sharp, Arminius, but conservative Christians claim they're being 'persecuted' by non-Christians when Fundie-owned Wal-Mart doesn't *force* all its employees to put the 'Christ' in buying all the outsourced plastic stuff the poor Christians went out to buy.

Fairly sure they haven't *actually* had the experience of what Christians do to try and get people to 'acknolwedge demonic oppression' if they don't particularly feel inclined to submit to more routine abuse.

Seriously.

To speak of 'torture,' how bout all the false-memories implanted by people who *just have to believe* that an autistic kid is possessed?

Do you know just how many of the homeless people out there were actually horrifically-abused into thinking they were demon-possessed? Frankly, mainstream churches would rather proclaim Pagans are really subject to demonic powers than account for their own messes, never mind the Fundies and Mormons.

First lie they tell to the people that do these things is that Christianity is an oppressed minority.

No one else does these things in this way.

You.

Now, if you want to blame Pagans for why when you live in denial of how you treat people, and wonder why you get this reaction, hoping an Apocalypse will sort it all out for you, well...

Probably there's nothing I can say to comfort you.

You *really* want to understand why people *so-inexplicably-seem to-hate-you....

You'd be better off listening to a Pagan than oneof Mohammed's boys. They ain't too discerning, either.

Paganplace,

I said: "And even the Pagans here know the answer to that one!"
You answered: Yes, "even" us... like a Christian in America ever got tortured by Pagans.

After I sent that, I realized I should have said this:
I know the Pagans here already know the answer to that one!

Or something better than what I said.

Arminius

Hi, Paganplace,

You must realize that the Schmooze and his knuckle-dragging fellow pack members reject anything you say or do because you are not 'Christian'. For that matter, they do the same to me because I do not fit their narrow, twisted definition of Christian. Talking to such people? We should try talking to a brick wall instead. At least it won't insult our intelligence - or any morality we do possess.

Arminius

"And even the Pagans here know the answer to that one!"

Yes, "even" us... like a Christian in America ever got tortured by Pagans.

"Now, one says we dont have a problem with Christians until they start telling us that their beliefs are superior to ours...and then the next one states their superiority by stating that TV preachers have no idea what they are doing.

Whose acting like the superior one here? "

Well, OK. Yes, to our view, wildly shooting a nail gun is not the same as building to code.

Yet, you do not have to believe in our Gods and practices to acknowledge we're human beings with a legitimate and actually pretty-studiously-responsible point of view.

Mr Mark, you said:
"Is it just me, or does it appear that the Xians on this blog are saying that the use of torture is justified when used to fight evil regimes that employ torture?"

Let's say that it is the right wing Christians (That's Christians, not Xians; please be with me on this. I capitalize Pagan, after all). Anyway. I am one Christian, to the left, who despises all torture and any who support it