All Comments (107)

Miriam - request permission to use your forum to attempt contact spouse, please?

*********************
LILITH COLSKEN-ZERNA
Twiddling my thumbs and going stir-crazy. (Escort duty.)
Would really appreciate a familiar face.
I'm sorry for avoiding contact earlier. You know the score.
Again, my apologies. Can you forgive me? I really need your help.
facebook - see me? If you want to talk, get in touch. (Asap, please.)
Otherwise - I would like to say... erm, how to summarize? Grateful for the precious moments,
remorse and sorrow for all the arguments, and I wish you every happiness in the future.
Loving you was a bonus... Best wishes. Blessed Be'. Sam xxx
"Take a dream and fly away. - Decline and Fall."

********************

My deepest, heartfelt thanks, Starhawk.
BB

There are a lot of insightful people on this forum. Eloquent too. My heart goes out to Victoria - I wish her peace and happiness.

Reading this article was very useful. We talk of forgiveness and learning to forgive, and thats a virtue, for sure, it helps get on in life, leaving unwanted negativity or garbage behind. However through this article, we take responsbibility of learning...forgiving ourselves, moving on after a hurt caused or a mistake made is great, but even greater is to make that shift in 'our pattern of behaviour' as you have written so well. Thanks a lot,
Renu

hi connie- maybe the universe is trying to force you to deal with the issue of forgiveness on a deeper and more personal level-

whereas before possibly you did it automatically to seek approval from the god- you didnt give yourself the opportunity to explore giving yourself approval.

how can you be wrong for what you feel?
but as a wiccan you should try to tune into your intuitive feelings- and if they are indicating some feeling of regret or even what some would call guilt, theres a reason for it.

you cannot ignore your feelings, and even if someone else tells you that you are not wrong for your feelings- you know yourself-

if theres a disharmony in your soul that is occurring- there is a reason.

you must have found somethng valid or beautiful in the message of Jesus(ata) before-

just because you are no longer a 'christian' doesnt mean the message was bad- the message of forgiveness is undeniably congruent with wiccan philosophy-

but now you are making it YOUR decision to forgive or not- not something outside of yourself-

and thats beautiful-
now you have an opportunity to really exaimine your motives for forgiveness- before- you didnt have to think about it - it was a given- but maybe it led to situations where you were weakened or taken advantage of- and it didnt help you to grow and learn-

the opportunity will roll back around again- the universe will provide ytou a new learning experience-

recognize the signs you can react consciously aware- and watch what happens-
does the universe reward your effort at thinking hard, trying to discern your own heart?

there are 2 opposite extremes to go to-
one is a religious command that you MUST forigve-
alot of pressure there-
so you do it, but dont feel it maybe sometimes.

the other is to say that there is no value to guilt- and dont be guilty just do as you will-

there is nothing in the universe that is without educational value to us-

guilt is your inner conscience demanding attention-
its not a contol code by religion to keep you in line- it has a purpose- and so pay attention to ALL your feelings- not just the ones that make you feel better-

there can never be anything wrong about investigating deeply your own consciousness-

if your intuition tells you that you can follow a higher path- (and forgiveness in the right heart-state is that) then maybe you can forgive as much as youre comfortable with (and it doesnt have to be public at all)

and find your own balance where your hear tells you you've forgiven enough- when you feel the harmony in your soul-

none of this means that you are bad, or wrong in any way if you do not feel inclined to forgive.
maybe it is not deserved, or you felt victimized or angry and you have a right to your own sense of justice-

i feel if anything is forced upon one (like you MUST forgive everyone always)
it is an unrealistic pressure to put on people-

the universe accepts you exactly as you are-
you are made of the same materials as the stars and planets of the cosmos, and the rocks and dust in the air- you belong here and your journey is as righteous and good as any of your fellow travelers in this world-

the universe isnt waiting for you to be perfect to embrace you, you are already worthy, already embraced- worthy of an incarnation in this world and a go at lifes lessons-

im not a wiccan connie, but i hope my words are received in the spirit of sincere earnestness that they are given-

peace

Pagan Place, My friend,

I have told you what the truth and reconciliation was about according to Bishop Desmond Tutu. As a primate of the Anglican Communion he is my Bishop and I make an effort to listen to him. The truth and reconciliation committee was about real sins, and real forgiveness.

Ever since I left Christianity and turned to Wiccan Paganism the subject of forgiveness is one that I haven't really gikven much thought. To me it was always a Christianized thing that had to be done to receive forgiveness from their "god". Its something that I stuggle with because of some of the recent experiences I've been through where in the past I would have forgiven, but now I'm finding it harder as these situations tend to keep repeating themselves so I end up asking myself why, what's the use? Am I completely wrong to fee that way? I hope not.

Ever since I left Christianity and turned to Wiccan Paganism the subject of forgiveness is one that I haven't really gikven much thought. To me it was always a Christianized thing that had to be done to receive forgiveness from their "god". Its something that I stuggle with because of some of the recent experiences I've been through where in the past I would have forgiven, but now I'm finding it harder as these situations tend to keep repeating themselves so I end up asking myself why, what's the use? Am I completely wrong to fee that way? I hope not.

Ever since I left Christianity and turned to Wiccan Paganism the subject of forgiveness is one that I haven't really gikven much thought. To me it was always a Christianized thing that had to be done to receive forgiveness from their "god". Its something that I stuggle with because of some of the recent experiences I've been through where in the past I would have forgiven, but now I'm finding it harder as these situations tend to keep repeating themselves so I end up asking myself why, what's the use? Am I completely wrong to fee that way? I hope not.

since you offered alot of unsolicited (and way off base) 'advice' i'll offer some in return

personally- i am intolerant of intolerance-

even pagans can be guilty of it sometimes
we all are-

you have alot of unresolved issues towards monotheists-

to requote you-
hey, hang out with a kind montheist once.

you might be surprised

my own feelings of safetly and validation are soemthing within me, not something to be gotten from my 'strong man'.

i guess you could say im an apostate from the indoctination of radical feminism, and have found my own balanced and middle way.

and who is anyone to decide what's right for me?

wow did you completely misunderstand paganplace- have some suspicion for the good in people-

paganplace -you seem to be unamware that I am v-

are you sure you dont want to revise what you said?

its pretty harsh-

"Take care around seemingly identifying us with some spectre of demonized feminism "

i didnt identify or demonize anyone, i shared with respect, the very act of sharing such a personal story points to the suppostion i had that people here would be gentle and non-judgemental-

"If some 'angry feminists' heard a story anything like 'v's' while it was in progress and saw someone who kept PUTTING IT ON HERSLEF to take on all the badness, herself, I think they could be forgiven for seeing that as a BAD PATTERN. And, hey, hang out with actual angry feminists, (And I think their prevalence and influence is rather overstated,) expect a certain level of... umm... angry feminism."

thats a pretty wild judgement to make with no information- and its incorrect-

1) my grandmother started working in 1917 at 13 years old- she became the executive secretary to the VP of alcoa corp- (one of the leading corporations on the planet at that time) with 500 secretaries working under her.
she did that for 50 years.

are you saying she wasnt liberated? she was liberated decades before the word was used for women!!!!

my mother was the first FEMALE union steward in her entire union-
you want to tell me ive never "hung out" with an "actual feminist"???

and YOU are trying to suggest that i am "revictimized" by forgiving????

give me a break!

and you really REALLY are off base suggesting that my husband should be angry.

i never said angry, i said frustrated.

if youve ever spent any time working with abused and raped women(as i have) you would know that in many cases, it is the reactions of the men which cause a greatdeal if impediment to the healing process of the women-

and you REALLY REALLY (wrongly) leap to the conclusions tat i havent told my husband about the rapes-

it wasnt the rapes i withhold, but the other incidences-

WOW - my husband is not so one-dimensional to have such limied reactions.

you see everythng throuh the perspective of your own views- (which seem greatly influenced by negative experiences with christian religious)

walking in someone elses shoes is the exact point here-
its the defining prerequisite for forgiveness to begin-

now, i dont use caps- i insert alot of parenthetical segues-
i also typically space my sentences 1 or 2 lines, then a space, then another- because aesthetically i think it is easier to read-

also my name starts with v!

i posted it as v because i know people have very tiny attention spans in gnereal- and there are some real islamophobes that actually DO persecute and attack me in real life on these boards continually-
so i didnt want to give them tender ammunition to use against me in some sideways attack in the future if they were floating through here-

i assumed everyone here was intelligent enough to make the obvious connection that I am v- ESPECIALLY because i followed up in my own name.

your judgements are harsh, and just wrong- (as provided by my OWN information on my OWN life)

and the sideways comment about 'strong men'

first and foremost I HAVE TO BE STRONG MYSELF-
soif i choose not to cry on his srong shoulders abou every pain ive ever felt- i can handle it.

ive been mistress of my own soul for a long time now, and i have a handle on it.

i suggest you reread my posts with this new information ...holy cannoli batman!

Well, there is no agenda to exploit you, here, Victoria. Certainly not for pointing out that the demands for 'forgiveness' often *are* in fact used against people who should be being supported, not further degraded by society. Or shamed into silence, for that matter.

We spend some time here explaining our point of view, frankly, as always, having to deal with mischaracterization of what we say. We're certainly not whoever you said was 'telling you to hate'

Take care around seemingly identifying us with some spectre of demonized feminism you may have experienced, ...that sort of thing isn't what anyone's saying... we don't have that binary dualism thing going on this, as so many things.

If some 'angry feminists' heard a story anything like 'v's' while it was in progress and saw someone who kept putting it on herself to take on all the badness, herself, I think they could be forgiven for seeing that as a bad pattern. And, hey, hang out with actual angry feminists, (And I think their prevalence and influence is rather overstated,) expect a certain level of... umm... angry feminism.

No one here is saying 'Forgiveness is bad,' ..only that *demanding* it of people lest they be called 'spiritually inferior' does come about a great deal, ... we can see it here, even, and it's a re-victimization in a lot of ways. When Pagans try to speak on the topic, people who think they 'own' forgiveness (thus, apparently, no one else knows it) tend to try and drown out our ideas on the subject with the very same accusations, you see.

And, really, yes, your man *should* be angry, in general, anyway, and shouldn't need to hear all the details of your personal hurt to be there for you. Many will spar with their imaginations of rapists (often in ways that aren't particularly comforting to listen to,)

...but some don't leap to think of retribution and actually put their attention toward making you *feel safe.* I like *strong* men when I'm with men: ...it's usually the ones who react with angry and frustrated talk of 'I'd rip their guts out,' that are thinking first of a territorial anger that has a way of turning the wrong way, (ie, toward you,) anyway.

But, yes, there's something they can do. There's a difference between being protective and ...angry and possessive. This goes for a societal level, too, where, again, a sin-and-punishment-based society ...doesn't really deal with what's *actually happening* when it comes to the rampant abuse ...and *doesn't know what to do about it...* so out of frustration and a sense of entitlement, a lot of the scorn is reserved for the victims, or other people that can be blamed for a 'sinful world' over which they say there should be more religious-authoritarian control.

That has little to do with 'forgiveness,' which can be a noble and generally helpful thing. We Pagans often speak of not holding attachments or hatred toward those that may have harmed us, which itself is different from absolving people of wrongdoing... For that, often, whatever relationship there is must be healed. That's all I'm saying.

Peace.

terra- thank you

its interesting how polar opposite peoples life experiences can be- the same thing can happen to them, and they come away on different ends of the spectrum.

i wish id have known even one of those victim celebrating/exploiting types-

my problem was angry feminists encouraging me to hate, and belittling my heartfelt forgivneness as weakness-

really angered some people too- (christians)

thats why most of every story has never been told to any-

even my husbad hasnt heard 50% of them 9it would make him feel he had to DO something, and theres nothing he can do- so it would make him frustrated and fuel a belated and pointless anger)

no one told me it was holy to forgive, but a few people sure tried to exploit my pain to further their own agendas-

i can think of no instances where it would be negative to forgive-
i mean real forgiveness, private and heartfelt, not some ulterio motivated showboat thing-

live and learn
peace all

i certainly never really thought of it from paganplaces perspective-

people who want to exploit, will do so.

And maybe if you don't understand that, 'Moderate,' you're just not Irish enough. ;)

And, 'Moderate,' what you say there doesn't even make *sense* to me, at first: let me try and translate, here.

As for the 'Truth and Reconciliation' committee thing, well, quite often people will stand accused of things of which they're actually innocent: I think the TRC thing was much about the same sort of idea as 'no-fault' car insurance. ...when in a place like South Africa, and grudge upon grudge have been piled upon accusation upon accusation, and the *truth* is just *long gone* unless people speak honestly...

Don't try to tell me how hard the world is, though, dude.

That South African thing was really very much about the other solution to the Gordian knot: Let go all those ropes and bury it. :)

It was very self-consciously a quasi-ritual act about *reconciliation* without trying to hash out all the back-and-forth of hundreds of years of a messed-up situation.

As I recall, the whole point of that process was in fact for participating people to tell what they knew, and, whatever they said, be re-inducted into a hopefully-just society. It's quite likely a lot of people in the conflicts just plain had no idea what they were supposed to have done in the first place. This was part of how that thing was supposed to work.

It *wasn't* about sin and judgement, it was about people coming together to bury the hatchet and promise to make it right.

That's a little different from the abstract 'forgiveness' Biblical folks want to mete out or demand as they please. That's about *reconciliation.*

Notice how what we have here is a number of individuals who've been subjected to some bad stuff, trying to work out among ourselves what 'forgiveness' means?

Whatever the value of forgiveness, people will *exploit* what is *taught and expected about it,* just as they do to other good things.

Forgiveness isn't just this abstract kneeling-to-religion-to-feel-better-about-being-hurt thing.

Whatever your tradition says forgiveness is *supposed* to be, it's *not* supposed to be about begging for scraps of abstract validation from those who sanctify and shield the *offenses.*

For starters, real forgiveness is quieter. It's not something that can be demanded or forced or imposed by people demanding victims forgive ....so the usual business can go on.

In fact, what I think was supposed to be a power placed into the average person's *hands,* has too often turned into yet another way for oppressive systems to enforce *dominance.*

You get hurt, you hurt, you need to 'forgive' the abuser while submitting to the system of abuse in order not to be suffering additional pain and ostracism as 'unforgiving' if you refuse to stop saying, 'This is unredressed injustice.'

This is a shame on our society. Gods know how many stories like 'V's I've heard, out there, not to mention my own.

Get hurt, get told it's 'holy to forgive,' do so, get hurt, again and again, and again, while the people *so willing* to try and legislate blanket moralistic judgements about people that aren't hurting anyone, aren't looking to help those hurt and help stop the hurt, but rather turn the very *fact* of one's hurt into claiming some form of spiritual dominance as well as political reasons to further enforce the hurtful dynamics, ...and the thing is, they were taught the same things about sin, forgiveness, and *control* as the perps.

It's in fact all part of the same system.

To wit, people are told, 'It's saintly to forgive, unconditionally cause you can't have justice, never mind *care from the community.* *You* go on trial for how piously you accept the abuse.'

Basically, in some points of view, lots of victims being out there is *good,* to them, cause it makes a more 'wicked' world they can claim they're 'saving' people from.

Real forgiveness happens at odd times, maybe unexpected ones. Quiet ones, in a context of humanity, tribe, family, community. Not flashes of divine grace or supplication.

It's not to be demanded, or for inconvenient victims to be shamed into.

Dear PaganPlace,

On the relationship of forgiveness and sin:

Starhawk said:

"There are great models of forgiveness around us in the world today. I think of South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation process as one example."

Do you know what Bishop Tutu said of this when people asked to be forgiven event though they claimed that they had "done no wrong"? If you have done no wrong, then confess no wrong. But if you have done wrong and you do not confess before the commission, you can prosecuted for your crimes. If you want your crimes to be forgiven you must admit to them and maybe even face your victims.

Absolution comes only after recognition of sin, and amendment of ways. At least in the example Starhawk cites.

I understand that your viewpoint is kind in intent, but the world is hard, and earning absolution for terrible sins can be hard too.

Victoria,
I am sorry if I sounded harsh or judgemental toward you, I sincerely did not mean to. It is sometimes hard to make yourself understood in this medium. I do respect your path in all ways.

You have always been respectful and open to us Pagans... we have a different way, but I believe we are all people of good will.

Blessings in all you do,
terra

terra, i pretty much always end my posts with the salutation 'peace'

i wasnt implying you dont have peace-

i was speaking for myself and in general- i dont know your story or have any desire to make a judgement about your own private reaction.

just as ive respected that your own path is personal and your choice, i ask you have the same respect for mine.
thanks everyone for listening

Victoria,

~we have to forgive ourselves first, then our offenders, then the god~

Sorry I missed that...
Why should I forgive the God? He didn't do anything...it was with His and the Lady's aid I am alive to type this. I do not blame the gods...it was a man that did it, not the divine.

terra

Victoria,
I have peace. I do not understand the need to forgive the one that hurt me for me to have peace and not have anger.
I am not angry...and I have done nothing to have to forgive myself for. I was sitting at home minding my own business when he came in...
I guess its a different understanding of what forgivness is or something.

I did not need to absolve him of his wrong doing to get rid of my anger and to find peace. Or to decide that he did not have power over me, so I threw it in the fire. That is what was under my control...

But we see things in a different way...I believe that the Universe will always bring things to balance and I leave Her to manage it.
terra

V,

Hang in there, dear Lady. We love you.

Arminius

thank you all for your most kind and gentle responses of support-

i knew pagans etc... would be receptive because theyve been judged so unfairly and harshly and would respond accordongly
peace all

well terra, we had this discussion before-
i guess a suspension of judgement precludes the freedom to forgive-

but it is a process that is individual to everyone,
forgiveness is basically your ONLY right and empowerment-
we cant force others to be responsible- we can only be responsible for our own actions- no soul bears the burden of another soul.

who else has the right to forgive?

if balance is truly intrinsic and we as humans are really holistically dependent upon one another- the only path to harmony, at some point- will have to be a resolution of wrongs and pains inflicted

we have to forgive ourselves first, then our offenders, then the god

to me any discord or anger creates an imbalance and unharmonious aura
if it emanates from oneself- it must be eradicated there first

people have gotten angrier at my forgiveness (and me) than they ever did over the experience that initiated the forgiveness

my own path in this way has been attacked from every possible angle, and nothing has convinced me yet
but im still listening

i wish you peace

V,

If forgiving is what made things better for you, you did what was right, for you. It is totally impossible for me.

To me the person is responcible for what they do and I am responcible for what effect it has on me.I have to release the hold/ anger/ fear from my being, not let that person have power over me. That is all I can do.

I do not forgive them unless they make some kind of acceptance that they were wrong. To me forgivness is a spiritual thing...if I forgive I do not see you in the wrong again. No...until you accept your consequences for your actions, it is not my right to forgive. That is between you and the gods.

But then that is how I see balance and harmony.

terra

V,

You are a better person than most, and certainly a better one than I am. No way could I have done that.

God bless,

Arminius

V:

You have my admiration - I couldn't do what you've done.

V:

What can be said? Thank you.

Chris

Oh, Mothers, V. *hugs, whoever you are, and no one need know or guess*

There's ...too much of that out there.

I have many first person stories, but I dont want them used against me-

there are some beofre this, but too personal (but forgiven early)

(11)I was beaten repeatedly, tied up, locked in closets, wakenend in the middle of the night to clean floors or some such nonsense- by my stepfather- and got in the way of his fists to protect my mother and brother many many times (my otherwise aquline perfect nose broken twice which ruined a potential modeling career-but thats a blessing-)

( i also ran away to calif at 15 to get rid of him (after the divorce)and didnt come back til my mom got him out- it was the only way she would
he came to our house once to a party weilding a gun, where he was wrestled to the floor-
i was yelled at by a crowd of people to kick him on the ground at least once- i picked him up and gave him his gun, forgave him and he didnt come around much anymore

stranger-hmm- raped held hostage tortured for half a day at gunpoint kknife etc... forgiven
thought i was pregnant- (stress) for 4 months- wanted to keep baby but there wasnt a pregnancy

horrible horrible experiences with the bitter acton agaisnt rape women who made everyhing worse with their prurient hatred and got angry when i said if forgave him (immature idiots)

friend- (came to my house- sat in the car and smoked a joint- had never seen autolocks before, didnt know they existed-) not to mention he cried for 2 ours after and wouldnt let me go- he seemed to want me to understand-raped and given gonhorrhea, afer bad experience with "counselors" didnt go to police (besides, he was a nationally famous 'hero')
developed into pelvic inflammatory disease, had to quit art school, caused infertility
forgiven
also i see him on tv all the time so its not likely to never see his face again
(also he came knocking on my door at 2 am - after-scared my landlady)

forgave my brothers live in lover of 5 years who brought him aids from san fran before he died

forgave my mothers boyfriend who adminsitered an overdose of pwoerful heroin to her that killed her

forgave the police department of long beach for imprisoning me for 2 months (illegally) when a drunk cop shot my friend 5 times in the stomach-
didnt pursue lawsuit blah blah blah

well, there more but im borng myself

one doesnt become a fool when one forgives, but becomes wiser and more discerning- and unquestionably it releases somthing powerful in your ability to love

the more the heart expands, the stronger it becomes

as ive stated elsewhere- forgiveness is a deepl personal and private matter between ones soul and ones soul

and it becomes exponentially easier with practice
peace (besides, im sure you know who i am anyway)

Anyway, Arminius, it's one place where some folks could stand to understand Pagans a lot better... A lot of people kind of get off on condemning us for imagined 'sexual immorality' (we're hardly the first or only minority that's been subjected to this,) ..in fact, some folks feel perfectly-justified making some wild accusations on spurious theological grounds that are really, I think, rooted in the same kind of sexual aggression (notably a desire for control of others) that also comes out in other ways in society.

The reality is, of course, we have our own context for these things... one we, of course, treat entirely in accord with our sense of a deep sacredness about, say, *all acts of love and pleasure.*

It's certainly difficult, in an interfaith context, at least, (and, I detect, in many intrafaith contexts for some) when some people's idea of 'forgiveness' is 'That which everyone should get on their knees and beg for from my God if I don't like them.'

In a context of universal human rights, and a shared humanity, we can talk about these things, but some folks really do seem to have odd ideas about what's even in *need* of the exercise of forgiveness, and what that means.

Umm, we don't think masturbation is a 'sin,' either, mind you, though it's kind of a drag when someone who thinks he's a prospective partner is so busy 'wrestling with temptation' and/or acting all out of control, that you may as well not be there, anyway. :)

I have a general 'no monotheists' rule for that very reason, it just gets weird and icky. Strange masturbation indeed. :)

Paganplace,

Agreed. We must take back sex from those who think it is shameful. Sex - making Love - is the perfect harmony, the ultimate communion, a true celebration of Creation. Anything else is either a strange masturbation, at best, or, at worst, violence in quest of power.

Arminius

I think it's actually a very important things in terms of all this, especially in terms of the sex and abuse that keep coming up, is actually to understand that one of the very most important things about healing ourselves and our world is that it's not, in fact, about drawing more strident ruled and 'moral laws' and more-severe punishments around it, but in fact to take sex itself *back* from those who'll make it a dirty shameful, staining thing in public consciousness and even in enforcement of law.

In knowing it for a sacred and blessed thing, we come to value it the more, ...when people are hurt through 'sexual means,' ...it's not factt it's defined as the same thing as sex that bothers us... it's violence *against* that sacred thing, not *because* of it.

Nothing's better than a patient and trustworthy partner to help one take back her body, and this is something by which a society that condemns these very loving relationships (as if they were 'just as sinful' as very real crimes,) does additional violence to people and fails to care for those hurt.

Not to mention, too often, I find, confusing people on the difference between sexuality and hurting people in the first place.

Terra,

Thanks! Bookmarked, and Starhawk is on the top of the list to visit. I should have had the sense to realise she had a site.

Arminius

Lepi,

Hugs from me, and tears. God bless. You have friends.

Arminius

My pleasure Arminius,

There is so much online about Wicca...some good, some Caca...

I think you can get a bigger understanding through our music, art and poetry as well as reading about our holidays. Go to Starhawk's site. She is my idea of what being Pagan and Witch means.
http://www.starhawk.org/

Then there is Isaac Bonewits-another Pagan voice:

http://www.neopagan.net/

Blessed be..
terra

Terra,

Thanks so much for the links. All are bookmarked for further inquiry. Thank you, dear Lady, and God bless.

Arminius

Henry James,
From your mouth to the ears of Themis.

Watch out for the Swift Boating. I do not trust the American public to rather go with the 30 second ad then use any brain power.

Impeachment is hard when it is both Prez and Vice Prez...get rid of one and the other can get a replacement. I would not put marshal law beyond either of them. Look at Bush's good friend Musharraf ...we are still backing him.

Republicans need to be seen as having the pox.
terra

Terra Gazelle:

I know next to nothing about Paganism and I would be interested in finding out a little more about it (my impression of unicorns is that they're one of the noblest and most beautiful of the mythical animals, which as a devout athiest is about the highest compliment I can pay to a religion).

Lepidopterix:

I'm sorry for the traumatic experience you write about. I didn't mean to imply that there's no substance to experiences like that or that the person didn't mean anything by it. I tried to communicate the idea, which isn't even entirely clear in my mind, that we have power over what the events in our lives mean TO US, and that a state of unforgiveness relates to a certain internal narrative. I know I struggle with narratives such as "this isn't fair", "it shouldn't have happened this way", "how could he do this to me", etc. Those narratives seem to be the things we hold on to. If a transition from unforgiveness to forgiveness is possible, I think it must relate to giving them up. It doesn't mean the pain didn't happen.

Does anyone have a first-person account of finding forgiveness following an acute injustice? (If I missed any such posts above I apologize in advance.)

Joe T

wish i COULD think of a practical way.

as long as bush/cheney are in office, most people in power are too scared of reprisals to do anything meaningful.

maybe starting Jan 20 2009 we'll see some light.

Lepi,

I am sorry that you went through that.
It is terrible when a blessing and a gift is turned into fear and force.

How can that be "forgiven"? To say cohersion and invasion is ok? No. It's not. There are times when we have to be warriors in our daily life. Put the sword where it belongs.

PaganPlace,
I think you are right about,"In fact, I think assault victims so often *remain* troubled by the assaults, long after the priests have done their thing with the attackers, is because it's often *sin-based* people who are unclear on what's really happened."

So many times I have heard those who have been hurt being made to feel that it was only because of how "they" were dressed, or where they were at, or their morals. Like "they" deserved it. So the victim starts seeing themselves as the "bad" ones.

Blame should not go on the head of the already hurt. Should we forgive those who have harmed us and in some strange way accept it was ok? We also should not live with the moment either...we have to take back our own power, this society will not help.

terra

There is of course, btw, post-traumatic stress, Joet. These are part of our instincts as humans, and that, not some 'moral' judgement, is where a lot of the difficulty 'letting go' may lie. These things can become crippling if there are further burdens attached by people who really *amplify the hurt done* by associating it with the sexual-sin-conditioning that says, 'This is your fault and you'll be scorned and punished...' In fact, by heaping further helplessness onto victims, this turns an act of violence into a societal act of stigmatization.

Forgiving or just cutting ties with an attacker can be an act of empowerment, or it can be a society claiming that the harm done, and the victim's hurts, *don't count.*

*hugs to Lepi.*

It's one thing that some of those who wish to assert that we know neither 'morals' nor forgiveness tend to gloss over.... Things like the endemic rape and abuse in our repressed, punishment-oriented society is that some harms are lasting, long after a verdict is reached or a God supposedly makes the perp OK with the world.

It can be like being hurt twice , and ongoingly, when the community is more concerned for the offender's 'sin' than for the victim's hurt or loss. As much as I'm not very big on the litigiousness of our society, there's something to be said for a compensatory system of justice, where offenders are liable to the victim's person, tribe and/or family, with their wealth or their freedom. Now, in practice there have always been built-in inequities to this kind of system, but at least it involves *some* kind of honor, of recognition by the community of the value of the person harmed.

There's something a little sick about some people turning one harm into a bunch more by demanding victims 'forgive' or 'get over' it, when maybe they still don't feel safe.

Not to advocate the practice, as it surely has other, and fairly obvious problems, but one of the appeals of 'street justice' is in fact that it involves rallying around the person harmed, instead of making them prove and defend a case, and it *does* involve a communal reaffirmation the value of the one hurt, a lot more than does the actual retribution, or than does anyone saying, "If you don't forgive this person immediately, through our religion, you're a bad person for having been hurt," ever could.

See what we may mean? Especially when people come at us with ideas that "As Pagans, you neither have any morals' (often the justification for assaults in the first place, in a twisted but all-too-common way, one which in poorer communities can make civil justice seem all the more unlikely) ...nor know forgiveness, so you're inferior at being victims, compared to our saints."

If some of us who have been particularly hurt under these rationales, and have made our own peace with the assaults, remain troubled by the general societal treatment of ourselves, well, forgive us for not buying the 'sin' line.

That just tends to get spun back into the assertions we don't deserve the 'protection' of your religion as it tries to subsume civil justice in the first place. The dehumanization that often means we have to look over our shoulder a lot more than one might expect.

Tends to result in people *comparing* their idea of how their God will judge the queer or Pagan victim with how he'd judge the Christian attacker, for instance.

In fact, I think assault victims so often *remain* troubled by the assaults, long after the priests have done their thing with the attackers, is because it's often *sin-based* people who are unclear on what's really happened.

Lepidopterix: perfectly understandable. but even your involuntary reaction is your own. whether you will be able to overcome it or not is a function of how the mind holds on to images and memories of emotions, and how successful you are at dealing with them. I wish you all the best.

JoeT:
"Of course what happened to you has meaning, but it has it because you are entitled to give it that meaning, not because of some intrinsic permanence to the event as such. If you can't separate the two, you can't accept that the meaning to you is all you have to deal with (by "all" I am not minimizing it) in the sense that it is entirely within your power to control how it affects you and what it means to you. You are only struggling with yourself to forgive, not some external force."

As I;ve said before, I don't wish him any harm, and I sincerely hope that he gets his life together, but at the same time, I never wish to lay eyes in him again, even if he is someday awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. I don't know if that qualifies as forgiveness, but it's the best I can manage.
It's not like I dewll on it constantly, but the fact of the matter is that even though it happened almost two decades ago, the first time my husband and I made love (we met almost four years ago), he touched me in in a way that brought on a flashback, and I damn near vomited all over the handsome naked man in my bed. He, of course was confused about my reaction, and I told him why I had responded the way I did. Hell of a thing to have happen your first time with a lover.
So you see, it's not merely that I struggle with myself - I do. I also struggle with the fact that even though he is no longer a physical presence in my life, he still affects the way my body involumtarily responds to certain stimuli.

Henry: I wish I knew the practical way to address the administration's commission of war crimes. we are witnessing the use of the spectre of terrorism, and a dose of racial and religious bigotry, to insulate us from calling it what it is. any ideas?

Joe T

See, Moderate, it may help to touch a bit on the Pagan idea of *karma,* in the first place: our idea of accountability and interpersonal forgiveness is not based on a 'divine judge and lawbook' ...essentially a 'getting caught' model... we see these things as part of an intrinsic and inseparable reality, one based in cause and effect... something like Newtonian laws of motion, where every action has, inherent to itself, an equal and opposite effect on *us.*

Of course even accidents have their effects on us, ...this is a little different from what deliberate or callous harm does but can still has effects of separating us from a sense of being 'right with the world' and the others involved.

We have an accident, we say, 'I'm sorry,' anyway, and forgiveness is supposed to flow from this without even any notion of a 'sin' or 'judge' being involved, ...though sometimes people will immediately leap to being defensive in a legalistic way without even *being* sorry.

Many of the things being done to us as a group, in fact, are justified by people who think that in terms of 'sin,' it's ok to perpetrate said harm because they can say we're doing a greater 'sin' for not obeying them.

We say, 'Hey, you're hurting people,' and they say, 'Yeah, well, you're a bigger 'sinner' and my God says it's accordingly OK to do that to you.'

In fact, by defining everyone as 'sinners' from birth, but giving themselves a special way out, they justify all manner of real harm done to *anyone they like.*

It's much more immediate and interactive for us.

See?

Actually, you kind of demonstrate the point, Moderate:

"Dear PaganPlace,

"Forgiveness is about sin. If there is no sin, then there is no need of forgiveness."

We simply don't believe in sin that way, or in fact, process harm done to others through that idea.

"Do you forgive the Cyclone in Bangladesh? Do you forgive an airline pilot because a mechanical failure caused his plane to crash an kill all on board? These cause harm, but it is senseless to apply the concept of forgiveness."

I wouldn't think to apply 'blame' in the first place, under those circumstances.

You bring up the idea of the driver who accidentally killed the child: that's a prime case where forgiveness may be necessary, whereas there is no 'blame' or even 'sin' to be attached. But he blames himself. In reality, we often apologize for accidents, (in fact, that driver *not* showing remorse for being party to the accident would be seen as rather nasty, wouldn't it?) and forgiveness is there a thing that happens between people. No 'sin' involved.

"Call me old fashioned, but in my view, the man that Starhawk hypothesized in the first paragraph who beats his wife sins in so doing. The mother who abuses her children sins in so doing."

And sometimes the idea of 'sin' is used to *justify* such treatment biblically. To say, essentially, 'God told me I could do it.' or that, 'God forgives me for doing it, so I'll do it again, or demand you accept this treatment.'

Often such abuses even have their *roots* in the idea of sin, ...after all, what are they trying to 'beat out of' a child?

Some will say we *don't know forgiveness,* ...really, we just don't abstract and categorize and absolve *blame* and *harm* in the same way Christians do.

The wife-beater isn't to us a 'sinner' cause someone says it's against the wishes of a God, ...he's an abuser because and as long as he abuses.

Arminius,
I have some fravorite writers or teachers that I could recommend...Mike Nichols is one. His site gives alot of info about our holidays and many Pagan views. But he is Celtic... there are hundreds of traditions that make differences between us, but the core is always the same.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/7280/

This is a favorite writing of mine. It says so much about who we are.It is on a site that has alot of literature about us and other religions. It's a very good site.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bos/bos553.htm

Then there is always:
www.witchvox.com
This site is extentive and there are many hundreds of articles in it, most are individual perceptions and may have 3 days experience. Check out the music and read it all.... the poetry will give you an idea of what we are.
On Faith will not post if there are too many links listed.
terra

Lepidopterix: Chris has a point, but perhaps you are misreading it. Of course what happened to you has meaning, but it has it because you are entitled to give it that meaning, not because of some intrinsic permanence to the event as such. If you can't separate the two, you can't accept that the meaning to you is all you have to deal with (by "all" I am not minimizing it) in the sense that it is entirely within your power to control how it affects you and what it means to you. You are only struggling with yourself to forgive, not some external force.

Laurel: slight quibble to what otherwise is a good point. with the person we know, I don't think we are witholding forgiveness conditioned on remorse. we can still forgive in the first sense you describe. we just don't complete a reconciliation between the forgiver and the offender absent the requisite conduct of the offender. the semantics is messy, because we so often use the word in the sense of actually communicating forgiveness to the offender - "that's OK, I forgive you" to me, that's not forgiveness as such, it's the communication to the offender of the fact that I have already forgiven them. that communication is another subject, reconciliation and relationship repair, that can appropriately be conditioned on lots of things, remorse among them.

From reading this and some of the other threads on this site, it seems to me that the word "forgiveness" includes two different concepts. The main idea is that it means to let go of hate and not hold a grudge on those who have hurt us, possibly to the point of feeling compassion for the perpetrator. The secondary idea has to do with healing the relationship.

If the person who has hurt us is someone with whom we wish to have an ongoing relationship with, I believe it is necessary for the person to have remorse, to make amends, to take steps not to repeat it before being forgiven. Otherwise you're contributing to an ongoing pattern, especially when there's a power disparity between the people involved. Then it becomes co-dependence and not true forgiveness.

For true healing of the relationship and reconciliation I believe the person who has transgressed has to acknowledge the transgression and take real steps to right the wrong.

Chris

thanks for the nice words to me.

i do disagree with you that Paganism is just another superstition like most religions.

the biggest difference is that Paganism is so attentive to, and tied to, the natural rhythms of the world and of ourselves.

go to the Starhawk file here and read 6 of her columns in a row, and you will see a deeply spiritual and most "un-wacky" approach to human experience.

i have literally not read one word from here that i have found to be non-felicitous.

love
henry