All Comments (40)

Starhawk:

Happy Belated (Celtic) New Year! I hope the Spiral Dance this year was as fabulous as it sounds. I want so much to take part in it one of these days.

I have adopted the custom of making a memorial altar at this time of year, featuring photos of people who have passed on recently, and lighting candles, incense, decorating it with leaf chains, etc., being careful with the candles, of course. This past year, so many people I know or know about have died; hence, my collection of memorial photos has grown significantly.

I first learned about Samhain over in Ireland in 1984-85--first, when my Archaeology class discussed ancient Celtic festivals as recorded by Julius Caesar and other Roman writers; and then, around Halloween itself, I joined in on the annual "Seisiun na Samhna" in County Dublin, a whole weekend of nonstop traditional music, a special dinner, and collection of donations for Ethiopian famine relief. I understand that the word Samhain is related to "samhraidh" (summer), as in the End of Summer. I've been wondering if it's also related to the word "samh", meaning rest/sleep/relaxation (as in Nature in hibernation). In any case, I try to spread what factual information I know about this festival among my community at large.

Anyway, it would be really cool if you would come up here to Seattle some year and put on the Spiral Dance here! I'm aching to experience it firsthand...

Best wishes and blessings,

--Karen

tonksdhr@yahoo.com

Terra

That is some fantastic verse there! Really packs a lot into a few words, no?

wow uwe that's really beautiful...thanks for sharing

Arminius:

Perhaps the Christian holidays were not originally influenced by the Teutonic or Celtic named rituals that many neo-pagans celebrate today.

However, the roots of Christianity grew deep into the Greek soil where there were many pagan traditions. They certainly influenced the placing of holidays and the aspects of saints. On the Teutonic front, Easter was named for Eostre, although it has its own Christian significance. The time of year, however, coincides nicely with ancient pre-Christian pagan traditions from all over Europe.

Christianity, itself, has been deeply influenced by non-Christian religions and traditions from the middle east and Mediterranean regions. It was not a simple outgrowth from Judaism, nor was it a unique invention of early Christians. It was a bit of a sponge, picking up ideas from all the cultures that it touched... and ofttimes enveloped. Therefore, there is little that is purely Christian in Christian traditions. Some Christian sects go to great lengths to try to isolate and practice that "pure" or "purified" Christianity for that reason especially.

Terra,

Let us please say that "Easter was merged with Eostre" rather than "Easter comes from Eostre". And so on. We Christians had most of the holidays before we ran across Pagan festivals. Correct me if I am wrong.

Pai:
I, a Christian, will NEVER tell you how to worship. Yes, Love your neighbor.

Arminius

Just ran-across the article and the interesting comments. The writing is beautiful to begin with and quite refreshing after being bombarded with endless leaflets about "the TRUE meaning of Halloween" according to the various churches in town. Raised a Catholic but no longer under that label I find it hard to believe that the phrase of "Love thy Neighbor" and such inclings of tolerance is wasted on a daily basis not only on Samhaim. I try not to discriminate against others but sometimes people of "faith" make my blood boil as they excuse their unaceptable behaviors towards the pagan faiths. I say to each his own. I'm not telling YOU how to live or worship your god, so don't trample on my chosen path even if she happens to be a Goddess.

Blessed Be.

The word holloween comes from All Hollows Eve...but the holiday comes from Samhain. Rather it was the churches way to turn the folks from their old gods and practices to the new religion.

Just like Christmas comes from Yule, Easter comes from Eostre..and Candlemas comes from Imbolc.

I think it will be interesting to share our holidays as they come along. Yule is next...

Blessings,
terra

TO A THORN:

You wrote, "Yes, Halloween comes from All Hallows Eve, but that is based on a far older Pagan tradition of the festival of Samhain. All Hallows Eve was the Christian bastardization of the event to try to get converts", well, this is your opinion but nevertheless the word does come from what you agreed that it came from.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Mad Love,
Yes very good...what in my Tradition we call the Simple Feast...a shareing of what the gods give us.
We drink the blood of the vine, wine that IS the blood of our God...God of Nature. We eat of the flesh of our Goddess...grains made into bread given by Mother Earth.

Blackberry Merlot is our wine of choice...when it is not simple fresh water.

“As the brew gives enchantment of the divine or abasement into the lower realms, so do all humans rise or fall in each life as their own will and strength determines. Partake of the brew and know of Rebirth and the power of Will!”

“Know that every seed, every grain is the record of times most ancient, and a promise of all that will be. Partake of the bread and know of life eternal and of immortality!”

Blessed Be...
terra

Hi,

this is Uwe from Germany.
In Central Europe, the commercial and "fun" aspect of Halloween is rapidly advancing. Traditionally we celebrate the 1st of November as "All Saint's Day" (EVERYTHING IS HOLY) and think of our dead relatives.
So, this morning I got up and went to the lakeshore.
I sang and told my dead grandfather and grandmothers that I loved them. And - whatever good or evil things they have done in their lifes - they passed on the greatest gift I ever received to me - my Life on Earth. Thank you, grandmothers and grandfathers.
I take this gift and make the best of it.

My reaction to this is that the writer is trying to tell us about the good things about Halloween. Many people see Halloween as a bad holiday where teenagers do horrible thing on the streets. Others think that it is a fun filled holiday where people can spend time with the people in their neighbor hood and with their neighbors kids. The question is is people more for Halloween or not. The day after Halloween is also a big day in other places for celebrating the dead. Halloween and Day of the Dead is a very fun day for some and a very annyoing day to others.

My reaction to this is that the writer is trying to tell us about the good things about Halloween. Many people see Halloween as a bad holiday where teenagers do horrible thing on the streets. Others think that it is a fun filled holiday where people can spend time with the people in their neighbor hood and with their neighbors kids. The question is is people more for Halloween or not. The day after Halloween is also a big day in other places for celebrating the dead. Halloween and Day of the Dead is a very fun day for some and a very annyoing day to others.

If people could learn to respect context and respect the past instead of trying (impossibly) to prove that their version of everything is the ONLY right one and everybody else's is bogus, these boards would be a lot less shrill.

Any human culture in a part of the world with four seasons is likely to evolve some form of festival of the dead at the time of year when the days become rapidly shorter, the first frost occurs, and the leaves fall from the trees. So the druids celebrated Samhain, and the Aztecs had a feast of the dead. And the Christians came along and, OF COURSE, incorporated these festivals into their ritual year: All Saints' (All Hallows) Day and All Souls' Day in Europe; Dia de los Muertos in Mexico, and probably others in other parts of the world. There doesn't have to be anything sinister or subversive about such cooptation; in fact it's called "enculturation."

Then a secular version arises when business latches on to an aspect of the traditional celebration where they see they can make money. Their interest is enhancing the money-making aspect, so they will focus on food, costumes, parties and decorations, without giving a hoot about MEANING. Regrettable, but totally predictable. It is possible for communities of friends/believers/neighbors or whatever to resist these pressures and maintain MEANING, but it takes work.

Jeffery:

I think we've seen enough evidence - just on this thread - that people imply pagan celebrations are new and without historical basis (and therefore cannot be genuine or meaningful, which I don't think follows at all).

It's no wonder pagans often need to mention that the basis of these festivals are at least as old as the modern christian forms, and are often even the root of the same ones.

Pagans often have to repeat the basics about their religions, but that's usually because of the amount of ignorance and dismissiveness they face daily.

Jeffery:
"I don't understand why Pagans feel so compelled to continue to "remind" Christians that every Christian celebration, sacrament and so on has been borrowed from pre-Christian Pagans."

Could be because when they scream about things like Sprawl-Mart changing their December decorations from "Merry Christmas" to "Happy Holidays" or carp about us Pagans trying to "steal" their symbols when nurseries advertise the sale of "holiday trees" or "cut evergreens" instead of "Christmas trees," it kind of strikes a nerve, since those symbols and holy days were Pagan to begin with, and we're simply reclaiming our own. I get a little snarky when I'm accused of stealing what was mine to begin with, but maybe that's just me.

Well Jeffery, why converse about anything, really?

I don't understand why Pagans feel so compelled to continue to "remind" Christians that every Christian celebration, sacrament and so on has been borrowed from pre-Christian Pagans.

I'm no longer a very devout Christian , but I know that since I was a lad in a Lutheran middle school the students were given a basic understanding that Easter and Christmas have several elements borrowed from our Pagan ancestors. These schools weren't rare progressive/ultra-liberal Lutheran schools; just your run-of-the-mill LCMS chartered school teaching typical American Lutheran theology. Anyway, my point being is that many things may have been borrowed in Christianity (I would argue most of major pillars of the faith come not from European Pagans, but from several Middle Eastern religions, i.e. Zoroastrianism), but the true connection to anything is Pagan is lost through the generations. The constant harping about this or that pagan element is in a Christian sacrament or holiday is getting a little repetitive and, furthermore, what is it suppose to accomplish? To show that there is a lack of creativity in some other person's inherited religion?

Tim:

>>"All the Pagan stuff is just silly to me. Especially this nonsense about Halloween having some deep meaning beyond my kids having fun dressing up and going out to get candy"

Well, that is my point. Pagans don't think that the modern commercial "Hallowe'en" has much significance. They're busy with "Samhain", which was around several centuries before that, is about different things, and is celebrated differently. It's *Samhain* which Starhawk is calling 'profound', because it's not something that pagans are inventing from a recent holiday involving pumpkins.

Fun Fact! Even the Eucharist was co-opted from 'mindless Pagan debauchery'. Bread, the flesh of Demeter, and Wine, the blood of Dionysus...

"Next came the son of the virgin, Dionysus,
bringing the counterpart to bread, wine
and the blessings of life's flowing juices.
His blood, the blood of grape,
lightens the burden of our mortal misery...
it is his blood we pour out
to offer thanks to the gods. And through him.
we are blessed"

from 'The Bacchae' by Euripides (c. 485–406 BC)

Io, Dionysus!

>>...instead of worsshipping the brutal bloody sacrificial father-sponsored crucifixion of a son
and then drinking his blood and eating his body each day or week.

Christ provided 'symbols' to remember his broken body and his shed blood by. Human beings need reminders...thats just the way we are. No one believes they are actually eating flesh by eating unleavened bread and blood by drinking wine. It is done, again, as symbols in remembrance of what he did for us. Death is a major part of the human experience. Many die for others each day. Jesus had no sin and was given as a sacrifice in a way that humans can relate to. Isnt it truly a great and awesome thing when someone lays down their life for others when they didnt ask for the outcome that ceases their mortal existence? This is something we all can understand and appreciate as human beings. And a true Christian realizes that this physical life is only a training ground for what lies ahead for all of mankind.

>>in Judeo-Christian culture death is something to be afraid of.

Not sure where you get your information. Death is nothing to fear by a Christian if you understand scripture and know what happens at Christ's return and the resurrection. New heaven, new earth, no more death, no more tears...the millenial and beyond reign of Christ to restore the earth. Then, the Kingdom of God established.

Blessed Samhain, fellow Pagan folks and other interested parties!

For those of you who are confused by the whole Halloween vs. Samhain thing... Think of it as the difference between Halloween and Dia De Los Muertos in Mexico. The Latino kids down the street were out trick-or-treating with the other kids tonight. But tomorrow, they'll be celebrating in their traditional way.

I just got done handing out candy to the little kids in our neighborhood. My house is decorated with all kinds of Halloween "stuff". I love the fun part of Halloween. Always have, even when I was a little kid. I also love our Samhain celebration, where we give offerings to our ancestors and those who have died during the past year.

People all over the world believe that their dead relatives are watching over them. It's not just a Pagan thing. I just saw the story of someone who lost their home in the San Diego fires last week saying that his mother was his "guardian angel" because she was looking out for them and helped them to escape the fires. So, it's not as silly as you might think.

No matter what you believe, have a Happy Halloween!

Starhawk, beautifully put, as always...

As a pagan living in a Judeo-Christian- culture dominated world, I noticed that the secular Halloween actually refers in a Judeo-Christian way to the same issue. While in Pagan culture there is no fear of death and dying, and it is a deeply spiritual holiday of connecting with our ancestors, of understanding the spiral of life - in Judeo-Christian culture death is something to be afraid of. Pagans connect with the dead, secular Americans make fun of it. and somehow, these two edges connect - when you laugh at death, when you are the scary monster you're supposed to be afraid of - it's all less scary...

Isn't it a wonderful holiday, this way or another?

Madame Starhawk

Merry meet.

Thank you for your two essays - "The Real Meaning of Halloween" and "Consider Both Halloween" here in On Faith.

Both your essays fill up the missing pieces of a "jigsaw puzzle" I had in my mind re Halloween as a Pagan, Christian and secular celebrations.

I never knew about Samhain before.

Thank you again and best regards.

"J"

I loved the whole costume thing 50 years ago -
...... yikes!! We had the whole schmeer even back then - trick or treat and soap the windows, TP the trees, etc.

I think Halloween is in the spirit of Octoberfest in Germany or Mardi Gras in New Orleans - you get to lose your rubber-stamp identity for a minute and do crazy things .... or at least imagine a crazy supernatural world full of power and shape-shifting. A little Wizard of Oz never hurt anyone!!

The social mores take a break for 5 minutes - of course Halloween is for kids, but with adults the behavior can get a little out of hand!! - the whole point.

Norrie - I fondly remember spending 6 weeks in the Hanover, NH area back in 1978 while I attended the Charles Fox guitar building school -located somewhere in Vermont about 20 miles out of town. A famous guitar innovator, he's long since re-located to Healdsburg, CA and has since become a sponsor of a famous annual guitar-builder seminar/gathering. I love steel-string guitars, but as a Buddhist, I know I need to get over it. Love Dartmouth College! Even better, I have clear memories of a subterranean bar that us novice builders frequented somewhere along the main drag -

Buddhists should always refrain from beer whenever possible!! NOT............

Tim
you don't make me mad, but you might consider this response given to another poster who railed against "mindless paganism."

Just imagine the "mindless paganism" of ritualistically noting the end of the Harvest and the border between death and life and our connection to the spirit of our ancestors

instead of worsshipping the brutal bloody sacrificial father-sponsored crucifixion of a son

and then drinking his blood and eating his body each day or week.

As for me, serious engagement with the motivations of the pagan celebration deepens my spiritual connection to life.

the Christian sadomasochism twists up my spirit, on the other hand. But i am sure that's just me.

Hi Steve B, UK:

Thanks for asking. All the Pagan stuff is just silly to me. Especially this nonsense about Halloween having some deep meaning beyond my kids having fun dressing up and going out to get candy. Halloween is just a fun time for kids and I enjoy it too. No attack intended just my honest opinion. It is an opinion Steve. If you want to put some kind of significance on Halloween, then be my guest. But if it makes me laugh, please don't get mad at me. To tell you the truth - it cracks me up.

Gaby describes Starhawk as "the only one of all the panelists that I could relate to and that made sense."

I concur.

I often find this true on other questions.

as Steve B says, a friendly and inclusive post.

contrast her with someone like Colson, for instance, for a day and night comparison.

Tim + Anon:

Or, to put it another way,
are you doubting the profoundness of the celebration because it's non-christians holding it,
or because you're intellectual infants, incapable of imagining that a religious event could be different to the modern commercialised children's holiday?

I'm honestly curious. I can't think of a sane reason to make such weak attacks on a post as friendly and inclusive as Starhawk's, so I'd hate to have missed your intelligent and enlightened motivations for doing so.

TIM/ANON:

Why would you assume it's *not* profound? All that's been said is the celebration is a deeply spiritual one - do you know how pagans celebrate Samhain, or are you just assuming you do? Given that it's a ceremony, it's not likely to be on a level with Trick-or-treating.

In fact, what *isn't* likely to be profound about it, in a religion which follows the seasons closely? It is the start of Winter, sometimes seen as the pagan equivalent of New Year, a time of confront mortality and hold a solemn remembrance for those who have passed away. That's more than enough right there.

So - what makes you doubt that it's capable of being a 'deeply spiritual' occasion? Are you shallow, ignorant and full of hate, or just trolling?

"There’s the Pagan Halloween, a deeply spiritual time of year for us, and a profound celebration of the cycles of death and rebirth."

Deeply spiritual? How profound! I am touched.

"There’s the Pagan Halloween, a deeply spiritual time of year for us, and a profound celebration of the cycles of death and rebirth."

Deeply Spiritual! Jesus Christ what a Halloween hoot to hear a Pagan's perspective on Halloween and all this stuff about the secular and spiritual significance of Halloween. You guys are way too serious. Sorry my kids have a lot of fun while you guys ponder the deep dark side of death and get all serious. What a Halloween hoot. BTW ..... Booooooo!

Chiguaga:

"It all seems too idyllic, too relaxing in the Pagan World. I don’t believe them. I don’t trust them."

If that is how you see it, you haven't been listening.

It all seems too idyllic, too relaxing in the Pagan World.
I don’t believe them. I don’t trust them.

FYI..

Primary definitions, courtesy of Merriam-Webster

Main Entry: witch
Pronunciation: \ˈwich\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English wicche, from Old English wicca, masculine, wizard & wicce, feminine, witch; akin to Middle High German wicken to bewitch, Old English wigle divination, and perhaps to Old High German wīh holy — more at victim
Date: before 12th century
1: one that is credited with usually malignant supernatural powers; especially : a woman practicing usually black witchcraft often with the aid of a devil or familiar : sorceress — compare warlock
2: an ugly old woman : hag
3: a charming or alluring girl or woman
4: a practitioner of Wicca
5: witch of agnesi

Main Entry: Wic·ca
Pronunciation: \ˈwi-kə\
Function: noun
Etymology: probably from Old English wicca wizard — more at witch
Date: 1959
: a religion influenced by pre-Christian beliefs and practices of western Europe that affirms the existence of supernatural power (as magic) and of both male and female deities who inhere in nature and that emphasizes ritual observance of seasonal and life cycles
— Wic·can \ˈwi-kən\ adjective or noun

Main Entry: pa·gan
Pronunciation: \ˈpā-gən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin paganus, from Latin, civilian, country dweller, from pagus country district; akin to Latin pangere to fix — more at pact
Date: 14th century
1: heathen 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
2: one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person
3: neo-pagan

Main Entry: 1Chris·tian
Pronunciation: \ˈkris-chən, ˈkrish-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin christianus, adjective & noun, from Greek christianos, from Christos
Date: 1526
1 a: one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ b (1): disciple 2 (2): a member of one of the Churches of Christ separating from the Disciples of Christ in 1906 (3): a member of the Christian denomination having part in the union of the United Church of Christ concluded in 1961
2: the hero in Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress

We celebrated our Samhain last night (We start celebrating on sunset and celebrate til sunset Nov. eve.)...Samhain is the most meaningful night of the year. It is a remembrance and honoring of our ancestors and loved ones that have gone on before us.

It is also a time that I traditionaly name some of those who were murdered for the name of Witch if not the fact of it. We also remember all that others have done for us, so that we have less fear of death and harrassment because of our faith, Those, people like Starhawk...who have faced discrimination, so that we face less. We sent our love and appreciation to them.

We also celebrate life and the new year. This time of the year is one of two hinges..a time that the wheel of the year turns on.. a ending, a beginning. It also is the Witches new year. We look to the past year and see where we have done harm, try to fix it...and look to the new, with hopeful goals.

It is also so a celebration of fun; we dance and feast and play games. The decorating is fun and we really go for the stereotype of a Witches home. Cobwebs every where with rats and bats and a black cat...(the cat's real). Black candle wax dripping everywhere and spooky music...as well as zydaco, rock and roll and shake your booty Pagan.

There is no devil, no blood letting, nothing very frightening...we do wear masks..beautiful ones. We do wear robes and capes...beautiful ones.

I have to laugh when I see on church signs "don't celebrate the pagan holiday...come to our Harvest Fest." I laugh...because what we celebrate is a harvest fest. It is the Third Harvest Festival of the year. What they do is what Pagans do. They do apple bobbing, as if that is not Pagan, apples are big in celebrating Samhain.

I am now in the middle of cleaning up the cobwebs...lol. changing over the black candles for the harvest greens and oranges I have for this time of the year...take off the black table cloth from the dining room table and sweep up all the glitter. Pick up the CD's and scrap up the glob of wax from my rug...and find the top of my kitchen table.

This is Samhain. It is deep spirituality, it is connection to the past and looking to the future...it is playful and fun, it is honoring the ancestors and those who have given of themselves.

It is the most popular of holidays...along with Beltain...it's opposite on the Wheel and meaning.

Io EVOHE!
terra

Thomas Baum,

Yes, Halloween comes from All Hallows Eve, but that is based on a far older Pagan tradition of the festival of Samhain. All Hallows Eve was the Christian bastardization of the event to try to get converts.

Hmm... Kind of like Christmas and "X-Mas".

TO STARHAWK:

You wrote, "Perhaps our thinking about Halloween would be clearer if we recognized that there are really two Halloweens", I have heard the the word Holloween came from All Hallow's Eve, any comment?

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Starhawk,

What a great post. Separating the secular and religious holidays is a great way to look at it. The holiday as most people see it is a very secular event. Stopping your kids from going trick-or-treating for religious reasons just doesn't make sense to me. The event has become almost entirely secular, much like Valentine's Day (you know, the holiday used to be about St. Valentine).

Halloween the secular holiday is about having some fun and cutting back. Can't really argue with that.

The religious holiday is usually separated from the public at large. Solitary or groups of Pagans usually gather together in a more secluded location to celebrate the religious roots of Samhain, at least from what I've seen. Again, I find it hard to argue with that.

But thanks again for the very nice and logical post.

Starhawk,

As always it was a pleasure to read your essay. Actually, on this particular topic, it was the only one of all the panelists that I could relate to and that made sense.

Thanks!