All Comments (169)

qrxadl cxls efpv hysukn zyauedhqw ulco bjgmotrqc

qrxadl cxls efpv hysukn zyauedhqw ulco bjgmotrqc

qrxadl cxls efpv hysukn zyauedhqw ulco bjgmotrqc

that has helped a bit, I still have a long road ahead---I miss my Mom so much--it can not be put into words

that has helped a bit, I still have a long road ahead---I miss my Mom so much--it can not be put into words

edEXZZ U cool ))

edEXZZ U cool ))

edEXZZ U cool ))

Hello!
Nice site ;)
Bye

http://moreaboutmen.com/genre/jazz-folk/g109/

http://moreaboutmen.com/genre/jazz-folk/g109/

http://moreaboutmen.com/genre/jazz-folk/g109/

And, going back, Think I'll have a go at 'lots of questions'' questions. If they're never read, well, I don't feel much like arguing, today, anyway. :)

" Lots of Questions:

"Hello wiccans...can you tell us who goddess is?"

That would be telling. :)
Ok, really, that one's hard to answer for lack of a specified frame of reference... We might say 'The Goddess is an animate and aware principle in all the multiverse, seen and unseen.'

To many of us the experience isn't of going to find some individual personage out there somewhere, but rather to come to know who's in everything... whether in that big abstract sense, a more personal one, several more personal ones, or any combination of the above.

" What does she look like? How do you know what/who she is?"

What She looks like. Hrm.

Umm, Everything? Anyone? Isabella Rosselini as the Grey-Eyed One? (I kind of like that depiction.) Me? You? :)

"Do you have a pagan bible or something similar? "

Nope. Look where that got some other folks. :)

"Was the story of goddess passed down through the ages or something like that?"

Yes, and it's happening now. And has yet to be told, and all of these. :)

" How are you so sure about 'goddess' yet many of you question Christian beliefs. What makes you so sure of yours?"

Different conditions of certainty, a general non-dependence on claims contrary to observed fact, and, personal and shared experience.

"Also, NDE's? Can you pagans only have them? How about Christians? Atheists? Mickey Mouse clubbers?"

Apparently so. It appears that people report similar experiences in many cultures, ...in fact, many Christians believe that these experiences are proof of Christian Heaven and Jesus and all that, but that's probably the only way they could report it according to their beliefs. Having been through it, I can say it's not dependent upon a particular belief system. I think the 'tunnel effect is simply what hypoxia does to the brain, similar to the 'tunnel vision' pilots and others experience when about to black out for one reason or another.

Which is certainly not to say I don't believe there's anything spiritual about it, quite the contrary, but rather that I'm pretty sure some of the elements of the experience are physiological, and thus not religion-dependent. There's more.

But, this is probably why pop-culture depictions of Heaven and related figures are almost always shot with high-key white background lighting, in fact.

If anything, I'd say that Christians tend to be the ones most attached to the idea that's what happens.

"How can I come back as a monkey? or a dinosaur?"

Why wait for another life, when so many can do that so well now? :) (joke) :)

Seriously, well, there are different schools of thought on that... Most Pagans would say another incarnation will be that which you are drawn to... (we figure/observe that we may tend to reincarnate among people we've known before, or find contact with them, because that's a law of attraction in the universe... or maybe Lady likes to keep teams together, who knows. :) )

Some cultures believe that it's a sort of karmic punishment to incarnate as a 'lower' form of life: Pagans, respecting animals and generally believing they have souls and valid experiences, too, tend to see it as a more practical matter: human-type experience isn't the be-all-and-end-all of the universe, so, if you need the experience of being a house cat, that might happen.... (some even figure that since there are more humans alive now than have ever lived before, that this is the first time around in this kind of form for a lot of folks, not that it has to be linear like that.)

I might half-joke that a good way to end up reincarnating as a monkey is to too-much deny you're a 'monkey' in *this* life, ...that ought to create enough imbalance that you may find yourself needing to reconnect with what that part of us is. :)

Miss lessons, you might repeat the course, and all. :)

" This is very intruguing. Who decides how I come back? Or when? Is there a 'head pagan or wiccan' that passes out the return trip tickets?"

No, we're not like Christians, this way, as above described. We may personify the forces that shape these things, ...figure that Gods have something to do with one's next assignment, even, (Hey, at least you can ask. :) ) ...but those of us who hold to the idea of reincarnation consider it first and foremost 'just how things work,' not an artificial process that some God does in some way totally outside how the rest of the world works. Kind of like how the law of Threefold Return needs no judge, ...it just happens.

I read with some irony that someone characterized Wiccans as 'spitting into the wind,' we'd say we're doing quite the opposite, in fact. We don't expect to do cruel things and be 'vindicated' by a God cause it was in the name of a book.

"Inquiring minds would like to know."

See, you're being a very good kind of creature for that, right now. Good seeking. :)

"So sorry, didn't mean to ramble. If anyone has suggestions for reading material for a "lost soul" whose heart bursts with joy at the mention of a Goddess or Gods and a belief systemt that celebrates nature, I would be deeply grateful."

On this, hrm, reading material.... I'm a poetry person, most of all. But that inspiration is, really, where you find it, not always or even necessarily often where things are deliberately about the Gods or Paganism... but maybe that's in part the bias of someone who found her hymns in the strangest places, before ever knowing from Wicca or that there were other Pagans out there.

Could be that echo in the snow is your own way of tapping yourself on the shoulder, so to speak, ...ashes are much about things past, and winter brings spring, where these ashes feed new life. , so try not to focus on what troubling things one might imagine brought them, too much.

It's usually important to read a bunch of different things, I'd say, there's nothing truly authoritative, and that's actually something which protects us from a lot of the abuses and excesses religions can engender.

For some reason, I'm thinking of this book series that isn't really about Wicca or Paganism, but has prominent Wiccan characters, (it's actually written by a non-Pagan with some consulting from a Wiccan friend on certain matters,) but speaking of ashes, the first book is called 'Dies The Fire' by SM Stirling... there's a lot of fighting in it, (the premise of the story is that some bizarre and possibly supernatural event takes away most technology, and the main point is to speculate on what happens next: among those best-equipped to deal are some Pagans and some Society For Creative Anachronism types and much Let's Have a Sci Fi Trilogy ensues. :)

I dunno, I just like it and find it a bit inspiring, maybe as an answer to all that apocalyptic vibe we hear from fundamentalist Christians and the deathwish of the Left Behind fans. And, well, I suppose there's an uncanny resemblance in the main character to a priestess I know. :)

But sometimes I think it's easiest to get what we're about when the direct topic *isn't* our religion, and maybe that goes for anyone. :)

Hi, all. Not sure how much time I have, just now. :) Glad something was helpful, though, Manythanks.

As for your impressions of snowfall, you could do

But I thought I'd mention this:

"I have another developing hypothesis, which I’ll post somewhere for your comments when I’ve thought about it more. It relates to likely temperaments for pagans, atheists and believers, using the Myers-Briggs personality indicator as a frame of reference."

I know a number of Pagans that have played with these scales, and really, we seem to be pretty well-sorted according to them, ...we really get all types, at least as a gross observation: it's a matter of what you bring.

Since the test relies on a self-sorting process, this may be somewhat inevitable, ... people tend to compare themselves to their peer groups.

I tested myself on it once or twice, but forget just how it came out. I think one might guess I tend to go about some things not considered hard rationality, in some pretty analytical ways. Certain types, of course, will tend to gravitate toward more scholarly traditions, and others, other variations... usually full pracitcing traditions are like tribes and incorporate all types. Could be the same for any belief system.

To 'Many Thanks:

You said: "If anyone has suggestions for reading material for a "lost soul" whose heart bursts with joy at the mention of a Goddess or Gods and a belief systemt that celebrates nature, I would be deeply grateful."

There's something about the quiet that comes over the world, the utter stillness during a big snowstorm that just does something to me too. I can definitely relate to that.

There's a lot out there but when I was just starting to look around it was recommended to me to start with a book called "Drawing Down the Moon" by Margot Adler (from NPR). She did a really great in depth journalistic look of the phenomenon of modern Pagans. It's a good starting point because she touches on a LOT of the major branches within Paganism. She interviewed hundreds of people to get their perspective and how they describe their own personal path. She presents the facts whenever possible and the debates that exist within the community. Reading that helped me zero in on what resonated with me and discovering authors that described one path in more detail.

Starhawk's books are also really good, but the history she presents has been disputed since her book came out. Her overall concepts though are beautifully written.

Hope those help. Bright blessings!

I was looking for something to help further this spiritual journey my heart has been crying for much of my life and stumbled upon this thread.
Paganplace - I sure could have used your wisdom twenty years ago! The product of an unstable, all-or-nothing southern Baptist, I made it through the suicidale teen years and yet it took me two failed marriages to figure out I've been gay all along. I am not accustom to the wisdom and open mindedness found in your posts and am so grateful to have had the opportunity to view these discussions.
I won't take up much more space on this thread - I really have nothing to offer at this point, except maybe to share my own experience with what I think may be my link with a previous existance. Since childhood, whenever large flakes of snow fall from a sunny sky, my first association has never been with the wonders and beauty of winter. Instead, my first reaction has always been as follows: I see not snow, but human ash pluming from some unseen incinerator. I think I've been in a concentration camp. This experiance is brief, and then I see snow for snow and can smile at the beauty.
So sorry, didn't mean to ramble. If anyone has suggestions for reading material for a "lost soul" whose heart bursts with joy at the mention of a Goddess or Gods and a belief systemt that celebrates nature, I would be deeply grateful.
Again, many thanks for your words of wisdom!
Blessed Be

Paganplace - thanks very much - it's been fascinating thinking this through and getting the input of Pagans.

I have another developing hypothesis, which I’ll post somewhere for your comments when I’ve thought about it more. It relates to likely temperaments for pagans, atheists and believers, using the Myers-Briggs personality indicator as a frame of reference.

Hi Paganplace:
"Ah, Priver. Yay. I'd been worried I said something to really cheese people off, I worry about getting uncomfortably close to 'witnessing' at times, even if our habits of not-talking-about-some-stuff might promote the idea 'you're just making this up and don't have real experiences or relationships with the Gods,' :)"

I've never noticed that throughout your posts, and I do understand your concerns. I think I already made that mistake on the first thread I'd had with a Christian biblical literalist. I was still pretty new to the community and was so excited I probably ended up coming off more arrogant than I'd ever meant to. Hopefully since then I've worked through the 'fluffy' stage and have learned that not everyone will be ready for us, and that it's ok, even necessary sometimes to keep my mouth shut, and to recognize the difference between honest questions and those looking to 'save my soul'.

Blessed be

Going back, cause I missed a sincere question from E-Fave:

"E favorite:

Lepi, Terra, Priver, Paganplace -- I asked about supernatural Gods abecause I thought that was the one absolute distinction between atheists and believers. For instance, both could be rational (most of the time) freethinking,, liberal/ conservative, smart/dumb, nice/nasty, sensitive/ doltish, etc. But the one thing that separates them is their position on belief in invisible supernatural beings."

"Then I got to thinking that Pagans probably don't believe in supernatural Gods either and it sounds like you don't."

I think part of the problem here is that many Pagan views tend to find the word 'supernatural' a bit of an ill-defined term.

We typically do not base our beliefs on an external-to-the-natural-world Creator: we generally believe that the Gods are part of the same thing as Nature is... it doesn't mean we believe that the material world is the only thing that's 'real,' though.

I would say that the worldview doesn't mean we don't believe the visible-to-us-right-now-in-certain-ways world is the only world, ...I certainly have seen the Gods much as one might expect... Spirit-personages, say, and have no problem interacting or speaking as such, with a healthy dose of reality-check involved, perhaps, but also knowing at least half of such an experience is constructed of what you bring with you.

I think if there's a common element, it's not that we say that there is *nothing beyond what we see* but that we do not *separate* the Gods from the world as others do.

So, when you say 'supernatural,' it's a word that doesn't necessarily work with most of our worldviews, philosophically. One doesn't *need* to believe in anything more-unseen-than-our-feelings, or, anything apart-from-our world, or even 'unseen personages,' but there's nothing stopping that, either.... we'd say that the Gods and what we see in life are not contradictory or 'fallen' 'realities,' though... we'd say they're all part of the same thing.

This is part of why we don't believe all religions are mutually-exclusive or must make contradictory claims.

"However, you consider yourselves religious, right? and you do believe in gods, right? so you are "believers" sort of, is this right? You could also be thought of as naturalists, I think, which is a term atheists also identify with, but I don't think Christians would."

Sure, I consider myself religious. I probably have more 'religiosity' than most Pagans, in some ways, I should think. As 'Naturalism' goes, well, I'd say that we believe we can learn about the Gods through our experience of the natural, yes. :)

"So I guess the next question is - if you don't mind -- which stance on god/religion seems closest to yours - the athiests' or that of religious people who believe in a supernatural god?"

I would say that actually what we *don't* believe is that the Gods are a separate and distinct reality from the material: one to be either embraced blindly or denied: in this I think it's actually that many Christians and many atheists (and 'paranormal investigators') are the ones who live in a similar conceptual world to each other, ...they just take different 'sides' within it.

Our premises and priorities are different.

I guess it kind of depends what you believe constitutes 'natural' before you start trying to define what's 'above' (super) it.

Actually, that derivation's important, too: we don't believe the Gods are 'above' (and outside) Nature... We tend to believe they're *part* of Nature, seen or unseen.

Ah, Priver. Yay. I'd been worried I said something to really cheese people off, I worry about getting uncomfortably close to 'witnessing' at times, even if our habits of not-talking-about-some-stuff might promote the idea 'you're just making this up and don't have real experiences or relationships with the Gods,' :)

So: For the other Anonymous, when I talk about things, you might notice I don't say who my Gods are or who I am. It lets me speak without becoming a snake-oil-or-pie-in-the-sky huckster if you can't identify quite what I'm 'selling.' :)

I don't believe our faith is contained in or limited by or dependent upon anything one can destroy or sell. As largely-European Pagans, and as many others, well, people have tried, and 'we' are still here, reborn in a way that's very consistent with our worldview, if not central to it.

You could say our very religion, in all its many forms and offshoots, is an act of the very same kind of regeneration we observe in nature, and oftimes in ourselves.

I agree Starhawk's a good representative, here. Within the Pagan community, there's obviously a huge diversity of opinions and scholarship on a lot of things, but all in all it works, especially cause she's good at talking theology, (and keeping it pretty simple) which isn't always a given among our many variations.

I think a common element in the many traditions of Pagan revival, even, is that in fact, 'life after death' *is not the central point and lynchpin of the whole belief system.*

I'd in general characterize us as 'un-fussed about it.' Commonly we'll say, 'I think it's like this, if it's otherwise, well, OK.'

In general our ideas of ethics and morality and spirituality are *integrated with this life, or any life,* ...there isn't a theological insistence that 'This life is to be sacrificed for the next,' ... rather, all lives are part of the same thing, in perhaps ever-changing form, and what characterizes 'progress' applies fully whether an afterlife or next-life or between life is what we believe or sing them to be, or not.

It always strikes me when Christian missionaries come to the door trying to scare me about *death,* ...I mostly resent them bringing it up cause I'd rather not die or be dying right now, especially with the house a bit of a mess and some projects to do, ...but you have to wonder, 'Is that all you care about?'

I think that that idea terrorizes people into either cruelty or spending Saturday mornings waking sick people to tell them to be afraid of death so they can sell a 'solution' to what's not the big 'problem' to everyone.

"certainly don't think I'm any kind of Grand Poobah of anything, though, Priver. In fact, I'm pretty studiously-anonymous."

I know you are and I respect you for that. You've got one anonymous confused with another.

"Seems paganplace thinks he/she is the grand poo-bah of all knowledge. Makes cynnical references to Christianity, yet he/she reeks of cynnicism.

Sorry, youre not the pied piper here, Paganplace"

This particular anonymous above, dated at 8:08am on 10/17 wasn't me. The only one that I forgot to sign was the post dated 10/17 at 7am.

I actually admire what you bring to the conversations around here- you can often say it so much better than I can and get me thinking about things I hadn't considered before.

I'd still vote for you for president. Except now that Colbert is in the running, you may have competition. :)

Believe me when I say I understand about the crisis counseling. I work with children under 3 with developmental concerns, and we often see the same things as you're describing. I just sometimes have to deal with foster families' aftermath of a horrible situation. There was one situation where I know what the impact of the Law of Threefold Return can do, but I couldn't help wanting to put a serious hurt on the person who damaged a kid like the one I was trying to get help for. You've got every right to be cheesed off.

E Fav:

You said
"Priver - So there's more we have in common! some people think atheists are devil worshippers too, and that we have no morals (no god = no morals)"

I've heard that before too. There's so much more in common than you might think. I tend to see the links between all the religions and find it odd that other religious (usually monotheistic) people refuse to see the similarities. It's the atheists that I can have the most respectful conversations with most of the time. There are places where we differ, but there is much to agree upon.

We're just as alarmed at what the religious fanatics are doing- to our country as well as others. Our moral law is 'an it harm none, do as you will.' I look at what's happening to this country and I want to cry. I doubt I'm alone in this.

"Maybe pagans need their own Hitchens - well you know what I mean, I hope - a spokesperson who commands a lot of attention."

Starhawk is a really good start. If they had to pick just one Pagan to be here, I'm glad it was her. She doesn't just talk about doing something, she goes and stands up for what she believes in. She backs up her words with actions, often ones that land her in trouble with conventional authority, and for that she has my respect. Even if I don't always agree with her. The fact that she's even on this site at all was a surprise and is a hopeful first step.

I just wish there were more Pagan authors from different traditions on this site so that the rest of the folks can get a grasp about the wide ranges of thought that exist within Paganism. It took us 10 years just to get our veterans to be permitted to be buried under the Pentacle, so I guess first things first. Baby steps. But here's hoping.

Most Pagans I know tend to try to live by example and hope that that will speak louder than any shouting can. The results of this approach remain to be seen. People ask us sometimes 'where are the Pagan charities?' when they don't realize that we're already doing things, just not advertising it to proclaim our 'superiority.' We just.. do. Because these things need doing. As I've seen atheists do the same.

There's a lot we can learn from one another if we stop to listen.

Blessed be

*wandering in.*

Sorry about being so cheesed off last time. I'd been doing some unexpected crisis counseling for an abuse victim, and some of the things Christians so casually-seem to say on boards like this, I have heard too many times coming from kids in crisis who were badly-hurt based on these ideas.

It may seem perfectly reasonable to talk about 'ultimate evil' and 'fallen humanity' and 'Satan' and all kinds of things like that, ...but insert a credulous, unbalanced parent, and you get kids who grew up with someone trying to 'exorcise' them. Things that'd be 'torture of a young human being' by any other definition except maybe the Bush administration's.

And, well, I'm at the point where it can make me furious at times.

I certainly don't think I'm any kind of Grand Poobah of anything, though, Priver. In fact, I'm pretty studiously-anonymous.

I don't think we need a Hitchens-like spokesperson, cause frankly, any such person the media would have would be ooky-spooky and easily-used as an effigy for people to discount or be threatened by, like Wiccans on daytime talk shows or Hitchens himself.

It does so happen that I've had certain experiences, and worked on certain ways to talk on them that I hope in this forum occasionally say, 'Hey, could be there's at least as much to this Pagan stuff as there is to other, more accepted religions,' ...even stuff that a lot of people, and other cultures, in fact, experience that actually says more than 'Ch ristianityis not for me,' ...that there is something to us... and our ancestors, in our own right, really.

That we're not just poised between the Christians and the atheists and modern values, even.

Take it FWIW.

Priver - So there's more we have in common! some people think atheists are devil worshippers too, and that we have no morals (no god = no morals)

Maybe pagans need their own Hitchens - well you know what I mean, I hope - a spokesperson who commands a lot of attention.

"I'm pretty sure Hitchens is not talking about pagans -- because I've heard him speak and he's never mentioned them. His "rap" is against religions (christianity, islam) that insist you believe a certain way or face the consequences. He says he is anti-theist (vs A-thiest), but even that does not in my mind include pagans."

I hope you're right. I really do. But so many people have such distorted images of us that I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't think we existed at all. Or if he did, that our numbers were so small that they didn't matter.

We're either seen as flaky, nonexistent, or worse yet- worshipping a devil we don't even believe exists or sacrificing animals/people. None of which is true. There's no real way to get a good count of how many of us there even are because a lot of people can't admit to it because of the dangers involved.

We also tend to get dismissed out of hand because to look at the Pagans that existed pre-Christian times occasionally may include some things that we would never practice these days.

"As to the "shouting" - I'm pretty confident that it's a phase - a necessary one to get people's attention. It's happened io evey successful movement I can think of. You can't make any progress without first getting people to notice that something new is happening."

I hope so. I just don't want the baby to be tossed out with the bathwater.

Arminius, why aren't you preaching the Gospel to these pagans? Is it because you think salvation rests with *you*, so you'd better be careful?

I don't envy you your poor impotent God who depends on you to fill his Kingdom.

Priver: "It's when someone like Hitchens comes along talking about how religion 'poisons everything' and leaves no room for those whose way of life doesn't involve trying to convert others- that's what makes me wonder"

I'm pretty sure Hitchens is not talking about pagans -- because I've heard him speak and he's never mentioned them. His "rap" is against religions (christianity, islam) that insist you believe a certain way or face the consequences. He says he is anti-theist (vs A-thiest), but even that does not in my mind include pagans.

As to the "shouting" - I'm pretty confident that it's a phase - a necessary one to get people's attention. It's happened io evey successful movement I can think of. You can't make any progress without first getting people to notice that something new is happening.

"Priver - I can say with some confidence that none of the authors I've read want to do away with childish fantasies. They are opposed to "indoctrinating children" into religions. Dawkins' oft repeated line is that there is no such thing as a Christian child, just a child of christian parents. He has made a point of saying the same of children of atheist parents."

Agreed. The same also applies to Pagan parents. Most of those I know would rather discuss why they celebrate what they do, but encourage their children to learn about other religious practices and then allow them to figure out what they would do when they are old enough.

"I wouldn't be surprised if your impression is from slanted articles that you've read."

That's probably true. And those types of articles are growing in number in the days since Dawkins and Harris and others have laid down the gauntlet and made it ok to openly talk about their atheism.

What bothers me is the fact that in order for any point of view to be even considered these days you've got to shout back.. but it's sadly understandable given the environment we live in today. It's one where one is assumed to be Christian until told otherwise.. and then once people find out they are afraid of anyone who's different. And we know all too well where fear leads us.

It's when someone like Hitchens comes along talking about how religion 'poisons everything' and leaves no room for those whose way of life doesn't involve trying to convert others- that's what makes me wonder.

Priver - I can say with some confidence that none of the authors I've read want to do away with childish fantasies. They are opposed to "indoctrinating children" into religions. Dawkins' oft repeated line is that there is no such thing as a Christian child, just a child of christian parents. He has made a point of saying the same of children of atheist parents.

I wouldn't be surprised if your impression is from slanted articles that you've read.

I hate it when I forget to sign my posts. The anonymous was me. Sorry about that. It happens- especially when I was headed out the door. :)

Those types of things seem to be the implications of some of Hitchens' work, for example. While I'd have to recheck it to be certain, much of what I've read of his appears to lead in that direction, at least implicitly.

I'm equating Divinity with imagination in the sense that that appears to be the mechanism involved whenever someone has an experience that leads them to find whatever religion they end up in. Myself included. It just seemed to me to be the natural extension of the argument that somehow the world would be better off by getting rid of all 'childish fantasies'. But as I'm not an atheist I'd be curious to know if maybe I am reading too much into their arguments. That's why I'd be interested to know what the authors and other atheists would say to it.

I'm actually not disputing your take on the Greek Myths. I agree with you. (They're great, aren't they?) I don't think any mythology should ever be taken 'literally' and I do also think it's wrong to tell someone they'll be punished for not doing so. I apply this to all mythology, Biblical included. For me they are there as teaching tools and can sometimes give great lessons. And sometimes they're just really cool stories.

You said "I loved Campbell as an adult because he gave additional context to the stories, linking them to religion – something I hadn’t done on my own. Campbell was instrumental in opening up my imagination, not shutting it down."

What I referred to was my 'worry" in reference to only the first part of your post dated Oct. 16th at 11:49 that began with "I'm lost. What do you mean “the other side of the extreme?”..etc.

I never meant to say that I was worried that Campbell shut anything down for you. In fact just the opposite. He opened up my imagination as well and got me thinking too. I'm glad he had that effect on you as well. Looks like I've got to structure my responses better. :)

Anonymous - who are you - someone I know who forgot to sign his/her name or a new person chiming in? It helps to have context.

Meanwhile, you say, “That is exactly my worry [Campbell being influential in my journey away from religion]." Some of the atheists (certainly not all) love to talk about how people who believe in Divinity are simply deluded and how the remedy for that would be to put away all 'childish' fantasies and only rely on what's accessible through the senses. By so doing, there goes such concepts as Santa, etc.. leaving.. what?”

Who suggests this remedy – can you provide some names and some direct quotes? This is not the message I’ve gotten at all. Are you equating divinity with imagination? Perhaps the only source of imagination?

I loved the Greek myths as a child – they were imaginative stories, with important life lessons, and not a hint from any adult that we kids were supposed to believe they were factual – or be punished if we didn’t.

I loved Campbell as an adult because he gave additional context to the stories, linking them to religion – something I hadn’t done on my own. Campbell was instrumental in opening up my imagination, not shutting it down.

Seems paganplace thinks he/she is the grand poo-bah of all knowledge. Makes cynnical references to Christianity, yet he/she reeks of cynnicism.

Sorry, youre not the pied piper here, Paganplace

Pagan Place, I'm with you...

I think if Dr. Jung were to pop into this thread he might have a thing or two to say about some Christians and the Shadow, no?

And regarding NDE... I read about a study a while back and it's seems like it's a fairly universal phenomenon, the only differences being due to cultural expectations. Those who return seem to think that the mission was to love more and to learn more. Seems like good advice.

E Fav: You wrote:
"I’m lost. What do you mean “the other side of the extreme?” and what are strident atheists advocating these days? And what do you see as “the end result?” Do you mean you’re concerned that some atheists want to rid the world of all products of the imagination, including Santa? And that the end result would be a colorless world? Take heart – scientists can be very imaginative.

PS – I love Joseph Campbell – he was a major non-strident force in my journey away from religion."

That is exactly my worry. Some of the atheists (certainly not all) love to talk about how people who believe in Divinity are simply deluded and how the remedy for that would be to put away all 'childish' fantasies and only rely on what's accessible through the senses. By so doing, there goes such concepts as Santa, etc.. leaving.. what?

I know the scientists can be imaginative- but so can the artists and dreamers. I just think there's great value to someone who is still able to keep their dreams alive within the context of day to day life. Even as an adult. What I see a lot of these days is parents who tell their children that they can do whatever they want to when they grow up.. until they get to a certain point and then they, or the surrounding society, take those dreams away from them because that's what they had done to them. It stifles innovation and real creativity.

And I enjoy them all.. Jung, Sagan, Asimov, Campbell.. and still find that Divine Spark in everything. Especially in great works of literature/art/music and the natural world.

Well, Mad, Jung and Campbell, that's starting toward getting somewhere. More people paid attention to that, and I probably wouldn't be so cheesed off lately. :)

I mean, if we could just stop pretending for half a minute that we *don't* live in a world where everything 'Christian values' voters scream for comes out *backwards* if it doesn't involve hating someone, then maybe we could split theological hairs or something.

Till then, know what?

Gods.

Look at this, look at what you *do* before you start developing selective standards of evidence for denying what ought to be *obvious.*

References to Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell? Now were getting somewhere! The Power of Myth and the Numinosity of the Archetype. All that and a fresh pot of coffee t’boot? Somebody pinch me…

And, just if Christians wanna quibble about interpretations having something to do with "love..."

*ready to burst into tears, here,*

I mean, Bright Lady, Torchbearer, and Holy Mother of Punk...

I don't suppose while you're talking whatever talk you're talking, you Christians could you like not make your queer kids feel they gotta be so suicidal?

You talk abstractions out of a book, like it's a good reason to hurt people, and your kids are screaming.

*wandering on in.* Well, hey, this discussion's kept going on. I seem to have some backscroll to read. :)

I'm struck by this exchange, though, about lack of literalistic, legalistic texts:

""Yes, we have laws. We have myths. We have poetry and music and art. But it is not writ by any god...it is inspired by our love of the gods.""

"Does that mean your gods arent able to guide, write, or at least inspire toward love?"

How about... No, and, who taught you that words mean that?

" What exactly is a 'god' to a pagan. Physical? "

Pagan with a capital P. We're people. Proper noun.

What is a God?

Would you believe we don't actually need a singular definition of such?

Aong ourselves, we discuss these things, and somehow no one gets damned. :)

I think, that to many Pagans, one of the attributes of a God and/or Goddess is to be a being that needs no words or commandments to dwell in our lives.

Personally, I see no signs of a 'loving' God in the idea of a character who would put the only key to escaping eternal suffering in the hands of the very people who use those words to cause undue suffering to others over trivia...

Maybe.... it's a defining characteristic of Pagan faith that someone in fact did ruthlessly take our words and things away....

And the Gods are Those That Are With Us Anyway.

Cause some Someones have been.

You wanna mix it up about footnotes, maybe consider some of us don't consider certain books as magical as you do.

Take your time, just in the interim, try and work your head around us being people. You've done it before. :)

Lepidopteryx said:

>>stop by and I'll make a pot of Cajun coffee (so strong it walks by itself from the pot to the cup) and we'll have a confab.

Now thats what Im talkin' about (siiiiipppp)
..my friend..your talking my language.

Priver: “I just see the other side of the extreme, as you called it, as what seems to be what some of the more strident atheists are advocating these days. And the end result of such a thing is just as scary to me as religious fanaticism.”

I’m lost. What do you mean “the other side of the extreme?” and what are strident atheists advocating these days? And what do you see as “the end result?” Do you mean you’re concerned that some atheists want to rid the world of all products of the imagination, including Santa? And that the end result would be a colorless world? Take heart – scientists can be very imaginative.

PS – I love Joseph Campbell – he was a major non-strident force in my journey away from religion.

PriveR,

I really CAN spell, honest I can. Verbally.

But I don't type worth a damn....

LOQ,

I don't generally go about scheduling theosophical debates for my friends. But if you're ever in my neck of the woods, stop by and I'll make a pot of Cajun coffee (so strong it walks by itself from the pot to the cup) and we'll have a confab.

"As for flukes, I'm not convinced that this is the only planet in the univers that has life on it."- Priver"

Um.. that wasn't me. I'm anal about spelling. Sorry. :)

As far as life on other planets goes, I have to go with Hobbes.. as in Calvin and Hobbes: 'The best sign that there IS intelligent life in outer space is that it has NOT tried to contact us.' :)

E Fav: Interesting. I guess my underlying implication is that for me what we call Divine is a product of our imagination and emotional intuitive life. By definition that would also include things like Santa and Co. So basically these days people are fighting over one person's interpretation of someone's imagination versus another.

I just see the other side of the extreme, as you called it, as what seems to be what some of the more strident atheists are advocating these days. And the end result of such a thing is just as scary to me as religious fanaticism.

I just think imagination is given a lower status in our society when our country here in America started as someone's vision of what freedom could really mean. To the detriment of all. We used to revere innovators. Visionaries. We really don't anymore. And that is what's going to leave us behind.

*stepping off soapbox* Sorry. I get a little carried away- it's just something I'm really passionate about these days. :)

I do agree with you that these days those stories are presented as fact that must be taken literally, and I think that defeats the whole purpose of what may have been meant by them. I think Campbell had it right on.

If I can post it on any other atheist thread I will- but there seem to be about as many atheists and questions about them as there are Pagans most of the time. We have a lot in common that way, I think.

I'd be interested to know what your other atheist comrades think as well. Feel free to pass it along. :)

lepidopteryx,

I would really like to talk to your Jewish friends. It would be intriguing to get their views on those who followed God, for instance, pre-flood..before there were 12 tribes of Israel..only one of which being the tribe of Judah. Its interesting stuff to discuss those who followed God since Adam, and where, for instance, the tribes of Israel have landed since, such as the tribe of Dan, who are traced to NW Europe (Denmark), etc.

If they are available for discussion, perhaps you could invite them on to this blog.

thanks

LOQ: There was no Judaism, nor Jews, when Abraham practiced religion. Same with Noah. et. al. and those before that are chronicled to have walked with God.

My Jewish friends would beg to differ with you.

From Lepidopteryx:

>>"My Goddess gave birth to your God" refers to the fact that Goddess religions were being practiced long before Judaism, and the fact that the dates of Christian holy days were chosen becausae they were Pagan holy days amd many of the rituals and symbols used by Christians have Pagan origins. Not to mention that the dying/resurrected god concept is also Pagan in origin and predates Christianity.

There was no Judaism, nor Jews, when Abraham practiced religion. Same with Noah. et. al. and those before that are chronicled to have walked with God.

True, Christmas, Easter and the like and their symbols and rituals are equated to and chosen by modern Christianity, but are also error..according to scripture. Hence, why the word 'holiday' came from 'holy day'...they are counterfeits, of which Christ, nor his disciples kept. Christ kept the Holy Days of the Old Covenant, which are also kept by today's remnants of the early church in a New Testament light (ie. Christ is the center of Passover now, different to what it was in the time of Egypt. The Day of Atonement pictures the putting away of Satan at the return of Jesus Christ in the new covenant, the old covenant used physical reminders of putting away sin/evil in using goats. The Day of Trumpets signaled a new beginning beyond bondage in Egypt in the old covenant...in the new covenant, it pictures the new beginning when the trumpets are blown at Christ's second coming, etc)

With regard to your other comments...it is good to share thoughts, but we certainly disagree on our origins and what is to be worshiped. But to agree to disagree cordially is paramount to our coexistence in the physical life we have been given.

Thanks for your comments

Ok, that's bizarre - WaPo dropped huge portions of my reply to Lots Of Questions, and the resulting post makes no sense, so I'll try again.

LOQ: I cant grasp what goddess was before mankind was if she looks like you, me and all.

All doesn't just refer to humanity. ALL refers to the Goddess being part of ALL life. When you look in the mirror, you're seeing the Goddess. When you look at your dog, you're seeing the Goddess. When you see a fish jump in a river, you're seeing the Goddess. When you see a flower, you're seeing the Goddess. When you put a drop of pond water under a microscope and observe all the tiny organisms swimming in it, you're seeing the Goddess.
"My Goddess gave birth to your God" refers to the fact that Goddess religions were being practiced long before Judaism, and the fact that the dates of Christian holy days were chosen becausae they were Pagan holy days amd many of the rituals and symbols used by Christians have Pagan origins. Not to mention that the dying/resurrected god concept is also Pagan in origin and predates Christianity.

LOQ: Obviously, the above is merely a myth that you/those who think similar to you have accepted. It seems to have merely a 'feel good' sound has some claim that Christian beliefs have. I know of no proof nor chronicled historical fact of a realm that existed before/along with/besides the Christian God.

"Merely a myth" is part of the reason you have difficulty grasping pagan beliefs. You apparnetly define "Myth" as "Not true." The Pagans I know define "Myth" the way Joseph Campbell does - those stories that allow us to define and name the numinous and/or mystical aspects of life. There is no one-size-fits-all Truth. Truth wears many masks and she reveals herself to each person in the way that person cn best understand.
As for proof, you have no more objective proof of your God than I do of any of my gods or goddesses. That's why the word "faith" is used to describe both your beliefs and mine.

LOQ: >>NDE's? NDE's are not according to religion.
Seems many are considering it a type of spiritual experience in this blog. What type of spiritual experiece would an atheist, for example, encounter. Does the pagan believe that one who does not believe in God, gods, etc can be reincarnated?

I seem to recall at least one post from an atheist who had an NDE and saw/felt/heard nothing. No light, no enveloping warmth, no Welcome Wagon of long-dead friends and relatives, no voice saying "Go back." Perhaps what we see/feel/hear during NDE's depends on what we expect to see/feel/hear.
As for reincarnation, I believe it to be a universal phenomenon, but I don't think those who don't believe it are doomed.

LOQ: Does that(no Pagan Bible) mean your gods arent able to guide, write, or at least inspire toward love? What exactly is a 'god' to a pagan. Physical?

Because my gods are part of me, and I am part of the All, guidance is constant and internal - that which is good for All is good for me, and any harm I do to others, I do to myself.
As for writing, my deities don't write any more than yours did. Just like Jewish and Christian writers did in the writings that comprise your Bbile, Pagan writers have written down their thoughts and ideas about the nature of the Divine. I read works by writers of all faiths and incorporate those ideas that make sense to me into my life, and ignore those that strike me as dreck. I feel no compulsion to accept every idea any one writer has if it doesn't make sense to me.

LOQ: Who figured all this out and has been noted as the authority to know this (reincarnation)really happens?

I could ask the same of your beliefs. And the answer would be the same as my previous paragraph. Reincarnation just makes more sense to me than etenal reward or eternal damnation after one lifetime.

LOQ: I personally believe that a creation is not to be praised or worshiped, rather tended to, appreciated and thankful for.. It would be the same in our realm if we praised the TV and not its inventor. I believe that it is logically safe to assume that our little speck in the universe is not a fluke....just as most good things that mankind can create with their hands and plan with their minds are not flukes.

We also believe that the creation is to be tended to, appreciated, and thankful for. We just don't see the creator/creatrix as separate from that creation. And we don't see ourselves as separate from the rest of creation.
Your tv analogy really doesn't work because a tv is an inanimate object, not a living thing.
As for flukes, I dont believe for a moment that this is the only planet in the universe with life on it. I think that it is muchmore likely that life has evolved on other planets, whether in or ot of this solar system, and that we are simply no capable of recognizing it as such due to either it not fitting the parameters we decided on for defining life, or to it existing outside the outside the scope of our senses to detect.

"As for flukes, I'm not convinced that this is the only planet in the univers that has life on it."- Priver

I'm beginning to think that "life" is the default position. We keep inventing instruments that reveal new aspects of our world, and everywhere we look, life is there. Life thrives at hot water vents, in total darkness and in water hot enough to a crab boil. Life also thrives at cold water seeps, where the basis for life is methane. When we finally start exploring outer space, I'm sure we'll find life there. And it will have the same spark of the Divine that it does down here.

Terra Gazelle asked:

>>Questions,
>>Exactly what does your god look like?

We were created in His image.

>>How does your god inspire you to love?

Not by any reasoning of man, for sure. God has allowed man to do his own thing, yet be involved where His purpose applies. Scripture explains that man had a fall...not God. I am inspired to love by what God has always intended for mankind, for the perfection of the creation He gave us and for the blessing to have a mind that was designed and crafted to allow us to be creative in our own realm, too.