All Comments (167)

Starhawk's response to the war makes sense on a profound level. I admire her pacifism

Starhawk's response to the war makes sense on a profound level.

Starhawk's response to the war makes sense on a profound level.

From this thread as well as the previous one, all posts from "Frank" have dissapeared. Is this a good thing?

Stop being a stooge for Israel and the Neocons.

"you are getting as bad as the islamics when it comes to word games."

The 'word games' at issue are the ones which you use to tell yourself these horrible things about other people, regardless of the merits of the assertion, Frank.

The *word games* at issue, are the ones you use to justify some sense that you're somehow 'defending' something by attacking things you don't understand, in many cases, in order to *prevent* yourself from understanding that there are other human beings in the world that you can't control or define through some sense of 'entitlement' and 'threat.'

The 'word games' are *all about your head.*

You'll notice I never said she wasn't at WTO protests.
I asked you where you got your assertion that "spirit gods" told her there's a "secret world government", since it's an implied insult to her mental state and that of anyone who shares her beliefs. My path is different to hers, and I'm not even really a fan, but she's representing the quite huge umbrella of 'paganism' on here so I feel qualified to step in.

If you made that part up based on what YOU think of her, then it's not only more baseless rubbish from you, but actually offensive. At which point I asked if there were even any mods on here to stop things like a sustained campaign of completely unfounded insults.

Oh, and if you think there's anything at all in common between Starhawk's path, any of the pagans on here, and a passage from a monotheist scripture featuring woman-killing and a strict god rewarding his unquestioning male follower for dogmatic violence against women, you haven't read a single thing Starhawk ever wrote.

I see a day off changed little. Sorry for the ranting, the other day. Chronic pain and dealing with religious trolls for days just don't mix. :)

It did lead me to reflect that the conceptual world of these people would seem to allow for no human responsibility for action: only blaming others for *reactions* which may be rationalized as 'just,' but still divorced from consciousness of the effects or functionality of a given action.

That whole thing about 'enemies.'

It strikes me that this troll is simply *obsessed* with 'enemies,' yet has nothing to offer but blindly *striking* at what he perceives as 'enemies.'

Still expecting a 'magic trick' to make the effects of the actions he aligns himself with *go away,* ... That's the real 'Magical Thinking' in the pathological sense.

(Apologies for the double post.)

Hi Moderators:

>>"moondoggiestar freak is a looney too. she is one of those nut cases that chases the wto around the world - getting arrested - and protesting the secret world government that the spirit gods are telling her exist."

Dear Mods,
Are you even on here at all?
Where do you draw the line at slanderous trolling?
Just how 'irrelevant/full of personal attacks/repeatedly disruptive/untrue/not adding anything to the discussion/offensive' do posts have to be before you clean them up?

I know I said that Chuck Colson was 'everything that is wrong with society' (and if I remember right probably said a lot more besides), but it was directly relating to his statement that we should shun gays as evil because the Bible says so. And hey, I'd insult him again, if I thought he'd allow himself any response not found somewhere in the King James. But this guy is going a little beyond that and it's spoiling the threads.

Please have some sort of quality control, thanks.

Steve.

Frank: Got a reference for where Starhawk claimed there's a "secret world government that the spirit gods are telling her exist"? Or are you just trolling?

Hi Moderators:

>>"moondoggiestar freak is a looney too. she is one of those nut cases that chases the wto around the world - getting arrested - and protesting the secret world government that the spirit gods are telling her exist."

Dear Mods,
Are you even on here at all?
Where do you draw the line at slanderous trolling?
Just how 'irrelevant/full of personal attacks/repeatedly disruptive/untrue/not adding anything to the discussion/offensive' do posts have to be before you clean them up?

I know I said that Chuck Colson was 'everything that is wrong with society' (and if I remember right probably said a lot more besides), but it was directly relating to his statement that we should shun gays as evil because the Bible says so. And hey, I'd insult him again, if I thought he'd allow himself any response not found somewhere in the King James. But this guy is going a little beyond that and it's spoiling the threads.

Please have some sort of quality control, thanks.

Steve.

Frank: Got a reference for where Starhawk claimed there's a "secret world government that the spirit gods are telling her exist"? Or are you just trolling?

Terra: **We also need to add to the list that the President must have reading comprehension...like if he reads the Constitution and the oath of office he understands what he reads...even big words.**

Add to that the corollary requirement that s/he must be able to construct gramatically correct sentences in English, and correctly pronounce important words such as "nuclear."

We need an intelligent leader, not moron joke fodder.

Antaeus, I agree with that, we can not allow others to think we can not answer the trolls. And anyway I have a hard time allowing anyone to have the last word...lol.

Lepi..I can not promise anything..life has been a little busy lately, hubby has a new job. But I will try. I again invite you to my place...email me.

Poetry, With the news out about Cheney I think we need to have more definition on what the VP's limitations are. Cheney seems to be the puppet master...

We also need to add to the list that the President must have reading comprehension...like if he reads the Constitution and the oath of office he understands what he reads...even big words.

Frank...take your meds...that's a good boy.

terra

Take the Pledge

All Presidential Candidates should make pledges like those below. If they refuse, then you should refuse to vote for them.

1. No More Oil Wars.

2. Work for independence from foreign oil on day one.

3. No more wars for corporate profit.

4. No more secret deals for $4 per gallon gas.

5. No more Chicken Hawks promoting wars of choice when they themselves avoided combat.

6. Make government green--if you can't make what you have the most control over green, I don't care about your plans to make the country green.

7. No more torture.

8. No more lying about torture.

9. No more re-defining torture.

10. No more drunken hunting.

11. No more secret deals with big corporations to divide up the spoils before the war even starts.

Okay, I'll agree to ignore the troll for now. But the newsgroups (alt.pagan, alt.wiccan, alt.witchcraft,etc.) were fairly ruined by trolls--people tried ignoring them and they just kept posting more and more, until to read the actual conversations you had to wade thru twice as much troll writings. Maybe if we could address the troll the first three or four times it posts on a thread, so the public doesn't think we can't answer its questions, but then ignore it after that and continue with discussions of more serious matters. That way we get its' major objections/insults out of the way without getting into arguments over what it meant by what it said.

As for energy sustainablility, I fear Lepidopteryx is right--congress just tried to pass higher fuel economy standards which couldn't get past the filibuster in the Senate. This next election, both Presidential and Congressional, will be critical for the possibility of reversing environmental dammage. To bad Al Gore refuses to run...

**So what if we got out of Iraq...and put that money and effort into energy security?**

I'm afraid that won't happen until we get the oil and Halliburton men out of the White House.

**As a resident of Southern Louisiana, we have sun. Yet there is no tax cut for getting solar panels.**

Worse than that, there are areas where it's forbidden. I have a friend who lives in New Orleans, who wanted to fit er house with solar panels. The city denied her a building permit to remodel her house because it's in the historic district and having solar panels on her roof would disrupt the neighborhod aesthetics.

So Terra, you're still coming to my anniversary party, right?

da da lalala...umm did you hear something...mayhap a troll beneath the bridge?

now to something that matters...

Wouldn't you think that to make sure we have security we would work for complete independence from all outside resources? I mean those who are friends now can become enemies later. Just like Saddam was Rummy's buddy when he was killing Iranians...

So what if we got out of Iraq...and put that money and effort into energy security? Wouldn't that be better then more CIA or FBI agents that did "ahellavajob" before?

As a resident of Southern Louisiana, we have sun. Yet there is no tax cut for getting solar panels. What of those who live by the sea..and hydropower? or in places where the wind is active? Why is there not as much of a ground swell for this as there is for immigration...it sure has a bigger power to hurt us.

terra

"For sunlight turns them into stones,
forever into cold grey stones..."

Let the sunshine in!!
(nods to Rado, Ragni, and MacDermot)

Frank,
I can see that trying to be kind to you is a waste of time, you are having too much fun in belittling people that have never hurt you. Our faith is too important to us to have it be sallied by the likes of you, are taught that Goddess is in all life..that She honors all life, but neither She nor we are fools. Having respect for your life does not mean to be targets for your bad manners and rudeness.

So I suggest that all who are interested in shareing views on the question, the panalists replies and on our own interests...we ignore trolls...we have been feeding them and I think it's time to starve them out, leave them under the bridge and talk around them.

------
Trolls
...with thanks to Tolkein

Deep in gloomy dens of stone
live the creatures men call trolls--
(though what they call themselves
it seems no one ever knows)

Creeping forth to prowl at night
They scowl and growl and give great fright
To unwary pilgrims whose last sight
is of gruesome trolls in firelight...

And never more is pilgrim seen
on wooded paths `neath evergreen
for all that's left are some bones
mixed amongst the trash and stones
in troll's dank cave beneath stony knolls...

So beware, my friend, if you must go
on dreary paths through haunted dale
for lurking in their gloomy dens
trolls want you for their dinner-pail...

But not in day will trolls come out
and go creeping round about
(to eat you whole, without a doubt!)
and pick their teeth with your bones;

For sunlight turns them into stones,
forever into cold grey stones...

Frank-

No admission of fault when Lep busted you on the "Hardcover" issue, but you still call US frauds?

"yes you are all frauds. you claim these wonderful powers to work the elements and pretend that there are these spirits you commune with and when you are put to the test you cant do crap. thats fraud"

Frank- show me where any of us claimed to have the powers YOU assign to us. Dare you. Double dare you. Double-Dog dare you! (And yes, I know I said we have divine power in us, but, Frank dear, so do you. You just strangle it.)

Sorry, Frank, but I can't understand a word you say with your mouth full of flies.

Henry:

I can't speak for Terra, but for me, it's not even about the book. It's about Frank casting aspersions on my integrity with his wild generalizations. He has made the claim that anyone who calls him or herslf a pagan is a fraud. The book issue is simply one part of it.

And I too thank you for your kind words regarding my faith.

terra

the book thing is a Really Crazy Issue.

I suggest you ignore it unless you are having fun bantering with Frank.

And if you are, you ARE a magick worker.

best
henry

FRANK: **Anonymous:
show the claim that the books were only available in hardback?
you cant keep changing the claim just because i bust you.**

Glad to, bubba. Here is YOUR claim that the books were available ONLY i hardback. Scrol back up and read it for yourself if you don't trust my copy and paste.

**BUTTCRACKPAGAN:
terra:

http://www.starhawk.org/ is the site for starhawk and her "tangled web."
she sells books, 9 if i count correctly - only available in hardback. that means expensive.
take a moment - click on a book and feel the bs slime out - be sure to wear boots and rubber gloves and maybe a facemask.
workshops at $450.00 each -
it's not that you are not funny and enjoyable to see and hear - but lets cut the crap - she is in it for the money.
AND SHE CANNOT DO WHAT SHE CLAIMS or we would have clean air, water, and no global warming.

FROM THE LOONIE'S BOOK:

"According to our legends, Witchcraft began more than thirty-five thousand years ago, when the temperature of Europe began to drop and the great sheets of ice crept slowly south in their last advance. Across the rich tundra, teeming with animal life, small groups of hunters followed the free-running reindeer and the thundering bison. They were armed with only the most primitive of weapons, but some among the clans were gifted, could "call" the herds to a cliffside or a pit, where a few beasts, in willing sacrifice [THINK THESE CREATURES ACTUALLY SAID - HEY LETS BE A WILLING SACRAFICE - HELL I WANT TO BE EATEN AND DIE TODAY HOW ABOUT YOU GUYS?], would let themselves be trapped. These gifted shamans could attune themselves to the spirits of the herds, and in so doing they became aware of the pulsating rhythm that infuses all life, the dance of the double spiral, of whirling into being, and whirling out again. They did not phrase this insight intellectually, but in images: the Mother Goddess, the birthgiver, who brings into existence all life; and the Homed God, hunter and hunted, who eternally passes through the gates of death that new life may go on."

you have to admit - its pretty funny stuff.

Posted June 22, 2007 8:42 AM**

Now, who is it that's been busted - repeatedly - as a liar?

Crank:

**and i do get a kick out of you, unless you are ripping someone off with your sale of pretend wands, pointy hats and books that you pass off as the real deal when they are found in the fiction section of the book store.**

You're confusing us with Harry Potter.

Crank:
**Paganplace:
well i showed you that they are. i looked but cant seem to find a statement by me that hard covers were available at her site - fraud that she is. maybe i did but i cant seem to find it.**
You must not have looked very hard - if you click on the 100Fires banner at the bottom of each book description, you'll find a price list for paperbacks.
You could also go to the two most popular online bookstores - Barnes and Noble and Amazon. If you go to either and do an author search for Starhwk, you get a list of books, most of which are paperback. Or just google "Starhawk paperback" and you'll get a nice long list as well.

**lepidopteryx:
Frankie:
I sell nothing. You made the claim that the books were only available in hardback, which made them more expensive. I simply showed that claim to be false.

GUESS YOU ARE WRONG - THEY ARE AVAILABLE IN HARDBACK.**

No, dear boy. You made the claim that they were ONLY avaialble in hardback. ONLY - your word. I showed you that you are wrong.

**so again the tramp of the midst or what ever you call your fake goddess - must have told you wrong.**
I don't waste my time calling n fake goddesses. i call the one who responds to my calls "Mother".

**there are no real pagans, witchess, warlocks, or wiccans - its just a cute little game you like to play - its all pretend and i find it very entertaining.**
I'm glad you find us amusing. As Bill Cosby used to say "Keep watching. And if you're not careful, you just might learn something."

It's just sad, is what it is.

It smells like fear, ignorance and hatred.

Ah well...

Anyway, Glad you had a good birthday, Terra.

I don't get the impression it's ''Lady Selena's'' way to dive into such a fray as this. (I don't think she claims this title for herself, but to me, she's earned it thrice over)

Any or all other things being equal, I'd just as soon she didn't.

We're dealing with willful idiocy, here.

We could be talking about Iraq, really, if not for one guy who claims we're 'Islamic' and 'the enemy' cause he's that *bent in the head.*

Which we deal with all the time. Just for having kids. Or being alive. Or saying, 'Frick, no, not in our name you don't' to a Fundie president.

It's not your obligation to expose yourself to this, Terra.

This is likely to get a bit ugly, at least in spots.

Keep those foots on the ground, brother.

This would-be-man is *not* your concern.

If he's *my* concern, Antaeus, I'm counting on someone like you being there for me.

Hold some space for me.

Believe it or not, I'm not all that convinced I'm so soul-smart myself. ;)

One free man, though.

That's powerful.

Namaste. :)

Wiccan and Antaeus,
Thank you for the Birthday wishes..it was a lovely day. I wish all of you were with me, we had a wonderful barbeque...

I must agree that having even one Pagan leader as one of the panalists on this forum is such a gift. I would love to have Selena Fox on though too...I have taken some of her ministerial intensives and some other workshops. She would be another wise Pagan voice. Phyllis Curotte would be wonderful also, I met her at PSG's 25th anniversary. She would be very interesting. Boy what a time...so many leaders and authors.

Frank, I have asked you before what you think magick is. You never answered me.

From Spiral Dance,page 27-

Magick, the art of sensing and shaping the subtle forces that flow through the world, of awakening deeper levels of consciousness beyond the rational.

Frank, no one in Witchcraft would ever say that we have powers that others do not have. If you have an open mind all is possible. We see things in a wondrous way..as children do, with eyes wide open.

You do not have to like Starhawk or us... we can not make you see things as we do. It may not be within you to be anything but what you are. It is up to us how we relate to you...we are in control of our selves, not of you.

I like this forum, I look forward to coming here and conversing with those I have come to know here. I will not alow you to make this haven uncomfortable for myself, so you can join in on the shareing that is possible here, or not. It is up to you. I can ignore you, that is up to me.

Starhawk's books are worth the price...if you do not want to read her, don't buy the books. Starhawk does not force anyone to buy her books or take the workshops. People must find them worth while...

Blessings,

terra

Sigh. I just spent some time carefully composing a reply to Frank the the Washington Post would not let me post. If you scroll up, you will find the place where Frank mentions Starhawk's site, then says he looked at her 9 books there, but that they were only avialable in hardcover. Now, if you go to Starhawks site and look at the page that leads to her books, then at the page for each book, the site she points you to to purchase them is not amazon, where Frank found a hardcover edition of one of her books, but 100fires.com, which only sells paperback or used copies. Therefore, at the time and place he said she only had hardcover copies, there were only paperbacks for sale. I still don't understand why hardcover books are evil, or why authors shouldn't make a living by selling books.

As far as witches, pagans, wiccans or "warlocks" not existing, I'm sorry Frank, but we are real. I actually exist, as a physical person. I worship nature, talk to trees and the moon, and honor multiple divinities based on nature. Therefore, I am Pagan. I burn candles and insense to petition the gods and the universe for specific favors, I spread the Tarot cards to catch glimpses of the furture, and I carry around semi-prescious stones in my pockets for preventing headaches and to stay awake on my job. Therefore I am a Witch. I cast a circle by calling the elements to the four directions, I worship a Triple Goddess and a Horned God in that circle, and my friends and I raise power in the form of a cone and Draw the Power of the Moon down on our Priestess. Therefore I am Wiccan.

Now, you can say none of these things have any effect, or that the effect is purely psychological. You can say we are evil or deluded. But we do in fact do them, and trust me, we believe in them because we have felt the power and experieced the changes the devine has made in our lives. Therefore, we _are_ Pagans, Witches, and Wiccans.

I'm afraid anyone claiming to be a "Warlock" are on their own as I have no information on them.

And now I fear I must go to bed. So goodnight all, and Many Blessings from the Sunflower State to you.

I mean, just a *random* idea, here, but why don't you try *living for five minutes* like there's *more to he universe than where Frank Collins *maniacally tries to *displace the blame.*

How bout it?

Otherwise,

STFU.

Basically, Frank. No, it's not "safe" out here in the world. No one knows this better than Pagans.

We never know if someone like you with your *serious logical interrupts* and a conviction we're 'the ememy' is going to do bad stuff to us or our kids.

I know you're afraid.

More than that, I know what *made* you afraid.

Same thing that told you it was somehow important to you to come here and say what you do.

Whether it's true or not.

Your blazing display of illogic as quoted above shows it.

You're tring to make 'sense' of a world you were aised to believe held nothing but *fear and
punishment' by some outside 'judge of truth,' one which you try to 'appease' by *insisting you're telling the Truth even when you lie to people's faces about themselves.*

Did someone teach you that a person, say, *you* is not equal to spurious insults?

I'm sorry, Frank. I tell you honestly that this is *not in my power to make go away.*

In a world gone *fricking *backwards* * I feel for you. I really do. But.

The only one here thinking it *should* be in any given Pagan's power to 'make all this go away' is *you.*

I suspect this idea is birthed in Christianity's insistence that if people 'believe in Christianity' everything'll be OK, no matter what harm they do to themselves, each other, or the world.

What thing would you like next?

I don't agree that *you* aren't worth our time, Frank.

But *you* have to *show up.*

What I *don't* have time for is your fear and your bigotry and your irrationality.*

It's common. Redundant, useless, completely counter-rational and infantile.

And ignoreable.

Also something certain folks charge 120 bucks an hour (or your soul) to deal with, badly, in 'your' world'

You are *not* a waste of time, Frank.

Till you make yourself one.

I'm sorry, but you have, long since.

But that's not *you.*

Just your words.

I know you're afraid.

That's ...not enough.

Umm... Frank? Not to like, contest your ultimate theological determinancy over the entire universe, never mind all Pagans and Muslims everywhere, but, umm, have you noticed?

" sell nothing. You made the claim that the books were only available in hardback, which made them more expensive. I simply showed that claim to be false.

GUESS YOU ARE WRONG - THEY ARE AVAILABLE IN HARDBACK."

This does *not* follow.

I think it's possible you should leave the theology to someone else and try having compassion for yourself and those in your more immediate vicinity.

This place is just words.

You're not very good at it.

That's OK.

What would you like?

Antaeus

I completely understand your gratitude at being able to elucidate your Pagan Positions here on WaPo.

I have, most sincerely, been grateful to learn more from you and Starhawk and Terra and Wiccan about what you believe. You would think that growing up next to that hotbed of Pagan activity, the Harvard Divinity School, I would know more about what you all believe, but I have learned much from all of you. And I must truly say, not one iota has rung a false note with me. Because of you, I have become a Pagan Buddhist Atheist.

Starhawk is, as the live kids say, Awesome, and the rest of your are birds of the feather.

MAY the Goddess continue to bless us all.

Peace and Moon beams
Henry

(and you know how I excoriate most Christians and Mormons - so I am anything but a soft touch.)

Wiccan:

When I first became Pagan I lived in a small town in central Missouri, and for the first two years I also hadn't contacted any other Pagans physically. Eventually I began attending gathering 100 miles away in Kansas, and made enough connections there that I eventually moved there. Having an online Pagan connection would have been lovely, but I fear this predated both the internets and the affordability of PC's, at least by me. I did have some fun times on the undernet later on, and even did some online rituals that were very interesting--I remember one where a person in Oregon was watching the moon rise at the same time a person in South Africa was watching the sun rise.
Now that I have two jobs, though, even though I love them, it doesn't leave as much time to have social or religious contacts as I would like, which is one reason I am on the internet when I am home from my Day job. (My other job just means I have to stay home a lot, but still have access to the computer).

Antaeus:

I agree with you. I wish that Selena Fox, or Janet Ferrar, John Matthews or any of the other prominent Pagan writers could also be a part of this forum so that folks could see the real diversity of thought in this community and how we seek to learn from others following a different path but who have something to share. But the fact that Starhawk is even here at all is a HUGE step in the right direction. And she's doing a great job.

First things first, I guess.

But don't waste your time on Frank. He only decided to come after us when we didn't fall for his 'all Muslims are evil' rants and decided to label us as 'islamic', whatever that means, because of it. He is incredibly predictable. Cut, paste, spam, troll, insult. Call people by some name 'he' thinks is appropriate. Nobody listens to him on any of the other threads either. That's the work of a selfish teenager, or at least the mentality. It's all about him. It gets old, fast.

Wait until someone has a genuine question. He wants you to be insulted by him. He's afraid of anyone not like him.

Oh, yes, and I'll add my wishes for a happy birthday to Terra. May the next year of your life bring you many wonderful things, both expected and unexpected.

Antaeus-

I echo your praise of this forum. I choose "wiccan" as my avatar because, here in the wilds of Northern Virginia, I felt like I was the only one. Through this forum I have met wonderful people of all (or no) faiths, from whom I have learned so much. And it feels great when I read a post from another Pagan, and I know exactly what they're talking about! Honestly, if dealing with people like Frank is the price I have pay to learn from the rest of you, I'm getting a bargain. (I just wish they had more questions that don't directly relate to the Abrahamic faiths. Oh well.)

Henry James:

I don't know if it is Charity so much as just eagerness to explain and defend my faith. I also must confess that as a Leo, I greatly enjoy having an audience, so am writing more to the people reading than to Frank. I honestly wish he would post clearer and better thought out objections so we would have more opportunities to explain our positions on magic more specifically. Of course, if someone else reading has questions themselves that Frank has not raised, we would like to hear from you too. I am just so grateful to the Washington Post for having this forum so that Pagans can at last have a voice on faith that has somewhat of a national audience. And, of course, having been a fan of Starhawk from way back, I'm happy she is the voice that is representing the Pagan community, though I'm sure Phyllis Currot, Janet Ferrar, Selena Fox or many others would have been wonderful as well.

Antaeus

You are TOO long suffering to try to explain to Frank the distortions in his perceptions.

I admire your Pagan Charity, but I must advise you that it is a losing effort.

It is, though, a testament to your goodness.

may the Goddess bless you

you bless us.

H

*unrolling the "What are you trying to prove" sign for Frank.

Yeah, that'd actually be 'fiction' cause that's the form it's written in, Frank.

You were fussed about something?

Take your time.

Got some RL to deal with.

Speak it. :)

Terra-

Happy Belated Birthday Blessings! I loved your explanation of magick to Frank; he missed the point of course, but I was nodding with each instance.

I think we Pagans have earned Frank's emnity because we kept calling him out on his wild imaginings about Islam. Obviously, people who could resist being terrified by his out-of-context quotes from the Suras and Hadiths were people that must be dealt with harshly. Then, to make things worse, we don't get all flustered and upset when he lies about Paganism; we just keep correcting his fantasies. And he's got to do this all by himself. Concerned will help him with Islam, but he's been deserted by his anonymous friend who tried to help him insult Paganism. Poor Frank, tilting at windmills he made himself. I think I'll burn some sage for him.

No, actually you said the link from her site had hardcover books only. The link from her site, that she advises you use to support smaller business, only has paperback editions for sale.

The Fifth Sacred Thing is a fiction novel, one of two Starhawk has written. Do you object to fiction? I still don't understand why you think she shouldn't make money off of books. Are you a socialist who believes all books should be free? Or do you oppose the writing of books altogether? I am confused here. If Starhawk had remained a therapist only, and if Phyllis Curott, the other Pagan author you linked to, had remained a lawyer only, why would those methods of earning money have been more ethical than as an author? I know that Plato had a very poor opinion of poets but since you refuse to confirm your own philosophical background I don't know if that is why you object to authors. Since you won't confirm being a Christian, are you an atheist or agnostic? Many of them object to any hint of Mystery in the universe, so that could also explain your hostility.

At any rate, it is hardly fair of you to attack what you perceive as our viewpoint without stating the principle behind you own viewpoints. About all I've noted is that you really hate Islam and think all Pagans are fakes, though fakes at what I'm not sure. Your postings seem to be less coherent than they once were--maybe you need to relax awhile, breathe, and think about where you are coming from so you can state a rational position yourself rather than just attacking the Pagan postions, or at the very least attack actual Pagan postions rather than those out of you imaginations. Gary, for example, pointed out his disagreements with Nature as a worthy object of worship. Since we actually do worship Nature, we were able to formulate answers to his questions that made sense to us at least if not him. But your attacks on our "powers" are so vague that I'm not sure what you are talking about. What specific powers do we claim to have, and where was that claim made? Not that I'm denying we have "powers" since I don't know what you mean by that word. I'll give a quote here from the Starhawk book _Truth or Dare_ so that you will see what exactly _we_ mean by magic, and you can tell us what about that definition you think is impossible.

"Magic is a word that can be defined in many ways. A saying attributed to Dion Fortune is 'Magic is the art of changing consciousness at will.' I sometimes call it the art of evoking power-from-within. Today, I will name it this: the art of liberation, the act that releases the mysteries, that ruptures the fabric of our beliefs and lets us look into the heart of deep space where dwell the immeasurable, life-generating powers." (from Chapter one, page 6 of Truth or Dare, by Starhawk)

So which of these things do you deem impossible? Changing consciousness? realizing that you have the power within yourself to change your situations? or is it the idea that there even exists something that could be called "mystery"?

Actually, pretend there's no Muslims. (While you're at it, pretend that continuing to call Starhawk a profiteering scam after discovering that your original premise for this turned out to be *wrong,* if not a *lie,* doesn't wash in the rational world. What motivated you?)

Why do you continue to insist people are promising to and failing to deliver upon an idea that was only ever in *your* head, sport?

Christian. (Hey, in your own 'duck' metaphor, you clearly are one, or at least stuck in that world, ...this apart from what you let slip when you're, umm, 'looser of tongue'.)

What drives you to this?

We'll keep the bad, bad, bad, 'Islamics' away for the time being.

They are not here.

Now.

You.

What's this all about?

*Now* speak it.

Go ahead and speak it. I'm listening.

(For the studio audience, this is where he spouts further abuse. Just let him, I suggest.)

Ah, well, Frank either lies or is just that turned around that actual truth is meaningless *all the time.*

Apparently he feels his only valid purpose in life it to try and 'attack evil' and whether or not any harm is actually being done by any particular target is at best a tertiary concern compared to 'Frank and what he represents is always right in all circumstances' and that 'Anyone who says differently from Frank is 'evil' and therefore much more 'wrong' than whatever pops into his head to say, as long as it makes him feel a certain way, even if it's not actually anything to do with facts or their own words. '

Apparently, the poor soul feels that if he keeps attacking, it protects him from something. It can only be very close to him, likely a sense of 'entitlement' that covers his ego from some horrible self-knowledge that, typically, has nothing to do with reality, anyway, just imposed by an abusive view of the universe inculcated from a young age by a system fixated on calling young males 'valueless' unless perhaps they can be directed against whatever happens to look 'evil.'

Locking him in an obsessive and destructive idea that someone'll come address his pain if he clings to it hard enough, and that if someone told him the world isn't as hostile as he was taught, that that'd make the pain unreal and he'd just be another human being.

You wonder what I've done, Frank. Do you have any idea *how* many adult-abused kids I've had to deal with?

You can believe me about the Mother or not.

But anyone who told you this *crap* you speak here solves anything,

Lied.

This will not buy you dignity.

Courage is more often shown in kindness. And if you must... Fake it till you make it.

There are no 'enemies' here.

Paganplace:

Actually, not on Amazon there isn't. That would be a good thing though--I have three copies, two with the covers off and one worn in half.

But while looking for one, I followed the link on Starhawk's home page, the one Frank said led only to hardcover copies. I discovered much to my shock that _all_ of the copies of her books at the bookstore she points you to, 100fires.com, are either in paperback or used. Is it possible we have caught Frank in a blatant lie? Or could he have seen a different link from her page? Oh Frank, could you please post the link to the page where all Starhawk's books are in hardcover editions? I could really use some of them, and if you can't do that, I fear I will have to consider you a shameless liar.

Oh, and, hint. People who spell 'Magic' extra-very-funny? Quite possibly overcooking things a fair sight.

May be trying to 'prove something,' even.

Anyway, as for you 'not saying you're Christian,' well, apart from *pretty much no one having these wacky ideas of yours in that way,* ...your Scriptural literalism, (and yes, you do seem to quote the Bible as an 'authority' when sufficiently drunk or unstable,)

...your insistence on a world of strict 'good and evil' defined by words, umm, calling people 'warlocks,' umm. ....yeah.

That comes out of conservative Christianity.

It's actually a rather particular and idiosyncratic worldview that you may be surprised *doesn't matter, never mind make sense, to most humans, already.*

Let's not forget that you were at best unwilling or unable to note that Starhawk's books are all available in paperback before claiming she was 'scamming' people with hardcover editions.

(Does a hardcover 'Spiral Dance' even *exist,* come to think of it? I'm always passing these on and replacing them anyway, but I've never actually seen one.)

Umm. Frank. Apart from that you're apparently barking mad, I never said we don't 'use' magic, but rather that it would be pointless to *show* you magic, cause you'd just freak out.

Apparently just *referring* to an instance freaked you out, it seems.

I'm sorry for that, but you had it coming.

And, nope. Still not Islamic.

As for you, if you're 'Not Christian,' then why do you repeat their party lines and refuse to acknowledge that a Christian ever did the slightest wrong?

If you want to say 'You don't have any such abilities,' well, OK. But don't go accusing people of claiming what they *don't* just cause you seem to lack all discernment in seeing one individual in a 'group' from another.

Unfortunately, Antaeus, if *does* cost to go around speaking, even if one's in a great deal of demand. That's how life is.

If accessibility's an issue, maybe it'd help if our society figured that even poor people deserved a little discretionary income or something, rather than saying, 'You are scorned by God cause Calvinism said that's what poverty means, and therefore you must be lazy if you don't have lots of extra money to spend on diversions.'

Another thing Frank--you are the one who is attacking Pagans. Remember, this discusion is supposed to be about the morality of staying in Iraq. But instead of sticking to the topic, you are the one who questions Starhawk's sincerity, and by extension those of any potential Pagan spokesperson. And the things you are attacking her for are things that are commonplace in most if not all religions--earning her living as part of her postition as one of the most respected Pagan teachers in the nation. Please name one prominent religious teacher of any faith who has a seperate job on the side to support themselves. How on earth would they have the time to teach and speak on their faith if they had another job as well?

Frank, you're the one lying about claims of 'powers.' :)

And I've explained this to you before.

Just because you believe you have some authority (and apparently right to merchandise as a Christian, if you so choose) based on some *other* claims of 'miracles' doesn't mean that's what magic is or is supposed to be.

As I've said before, I've seen more than my share, but ...no, I won't tell you. Especially not cause you try to goad people.

You know why?

I said.

You couldn't handle it.

You'd figure it was from either Jesus or the Devil and just spin it back into the same old paranoia.

Why *should* we?

I'll tell you this: what *we* call 'magic' has been with us *all along.*

As for wanting us to 'magically fix' the global warming that the people polluting have been denying all along, as an excuse to ignore the fact that we've *known* 'Pollution is Bad,' for a long time that, umm...

Do you have any idea how much we've been *skating while people wise up* as it *is?*

You want to see this magic, *be it.*

Stop making it worse. Stop spending your energy attacking those who point out the problem, and defending those who keep *accelerating the problem.* Or diverting everyone's attention with xenophobia while the 'good guys' you won't question keep *poisoning the future.*