All Comments (93)

Good enough post, Person Unknown, but:

"and their very existence depends on having believers."

Now *that's* an idea that'll get you in trouble every time. ;)

Janet:

A couple of things ... first, your god is no more real than any other. There have been so many over the ages and their very existence depends on having believers. Second - Serious thinkers?? Read some of the christian responses in other sections. You will find an amazing lack of critical thought and a willingness to ignore reality that is really amazing. Finally - do not forget why the Palestinians are sooo cheesed off - what is now Israel was once their land. The policy of continuing settlements on the west bank is not helping. Of course, the land the land taken from the Palestinians was promised by god, right??

"Why do people think it's somehow ok to insult people whose beliefs they know nothing about?"

Often the insults are meant to *prevent* them from any danger of knowing anything they don't want to. :)

There's a psychological phenomenon of 'antiprocess' which means that if people find a piece of information to be unacceptable to their worldview, they'll tend to disregard it. ...People don't like to think they're 'bad people,' ...or have been lied to, for that matter, so the usual resolution is to disregard anything that says they might have been or done something wrong, and just say that the people who've been wronged 'deserve' it somehow.

Probably why most of the insults and defamations we hear aren't even *consistent* with each other, ... and why certain types who need us to be the 'bad guys' in their world generally refuse to accept the reality no matter how often it's been proven that they've been lied to.

Look at what Frank's thought process went through, here. Seems he didn't even really hear a word we said.

There's those who don't want to seem like frothing Fundies, but at the same time don't care to fit us in their world as human beings being treated badly, either, so they'll dismiss us as 'a bunch of kooks' (who therefore 'deserve' it?) Another version of the same phenomenon.

And on it goes. These things take time, I suppose.

Janet:

Please do some real research and reading. Find out what we believe, or perhaps just come ask us. Our faith is not just a 'religion' to us, it is a way of life. Have you read everything she has to say? Starhawk doesn't just write about what she believes should be done in the world, she is actively working to make positive changes wherever she can. It is something to have some respect for even if you do not believe as she does.

Why do people think it's somehow ok to insult people whose beliefs they know nothing about?

Frank,

Silvlaro is not Muslim, she most certainly is Pagan; a Wiccan, a member of my group and in training to be a leader...I would say I am also a good teacher. I am most very proud of Silvlaro.

She has a good head on her shoulders, strives for balance and can give as good as she gets. She is also a damned fine poet.

Janet...

We do not go into other pagaes in this forum and say a thing about anyone believeing in an all male God. It is rude and hateful to do so...and not neccessary for our well being.

Why do you feel it is neccessary for you to come in here and belittle our Lady and faith? Why is it so hard for a non Pagan to believe that we have as true a faith in our Gods as they do in their's?

Poetry, Music, art is created in the love of our Goddess and God. You are rude and belittleing people you do not know.

Starhawk is a lovely and intelligent person, just because you do not believe as she does, does not make her less so.

So Janet, be in peace and have an open mind. You might be surprised at what you may learn.

Then this is the First of the Great Mysteries:
“ In the spiritual we are all children, we must continue to grow or are spirit dies. Never stop learning, for knowledge is the food of the hungry soul”.

terra

Aaah, and that was serious thought of some kind, Janet?

I am just amazed that someone supposedly as modern and educated as Starhawk is talking about "the Goddess." I cannot take her seriously and I don't know why anyone else does. Also she talks about the occupation of Palestine as if the whole burden of the problems in the Middle East should fall on the 5 million Israelis rather than on 350 million Arabs and 1.2 billion or so Muslims. Why are people like this given a forum to propagate this foolish dribble. I expect more from the Washington Post. Please get some serious thinkers in here and let Starhawk go dance with the fairies.

What I really love about the Rede is the fact that 'an it harm none' also includes self in the equation. A piece that is overlooked more often than not in this day and age. It's not always as easy as it sounds, but it makes life a lot more manageable. I love how it requires one to really accept responsibility for what they put out, and what goes out comes back times three.

If you look below the surface of the Rede, there's a lot more than meets the eye. Sorta like the rest of us. :)

I think Mr. Collins is trying to bait us somehow, and it's confusing him when nobody responds like he expects. Kill 'em with kindness AND confusion- Maybe that's the way to go.

Gaby:
I can only hope that there are more of folks like you out there (in any religion) than there are the likes of Mr. Collins. That gives me at least some hope for the rest of the world..

TheGreg:

It's true. We're everywhere. You might be surprised at how many nerds are around. LOTR, HP, anyone? :)

*laughing.* I *was* kind of making the reference, myself. ;)

PaganPlace,

"We're even allowed to *not* have the Ultimate Answer To Life, The Universe, And Everything. "

But the answer is 42!

...... gods i'm such a nerd.

And, why, thank you, Gaby. Whatever part of the horse this guy's emulating, instead of perhaps riding, I see him as caught up in a zero-sum game of religious competition that someone convinced him they'd hung his very soul upon. Turned something that a lot of my respected ancestors tried to turn to the good into some kind of pain-and-fear game.

He won't get us to join in, but hating his like does no good, either, and there does come a time when you've got to stand.

Anger, though, that's very human, too. We're allowed to be human. :)

We're even allowed to *not* have the Ultimate Answer To Life, The Universe, And Everything.

Takes some of the strain off of life, right there, I think. But it's a big deal to him. Kind of a stressful place to be, I should think.

Not only was he taught to believe *he* needs it, he was taught to believe everyone *else* needs it, or else Terrible Things Will Happen. Err, More Terrible Things Will Happen Than Result From Thinking That Way Every Time...

'Evil,' even.

You don't have to kneel to anyone to see if any of this works for you, btw, Frank. Pretty open-source stuff, here. If it works, it works.

Just maybe your Jesus would approve.

Anyway, Gaby, we'll work it out. ;)

This, though, is one place where I think the Pagan community has done well: in an age where it seems everyone's trying to sell us on doom and gloom, and "If it feels good, it's probably a sin," ...then get us to try and satiate frustrated desires on consumer goods, war, condemnation of others, and blind obedience to people who'd lead us to bad ends, I see joy and honesty and responsibility and courage.

I see Pagan kids never raised to irrationally fear, not others, not themselves, not things like sexuality, nor reason, nor science, nor the future...

That never had the light of humanity squelched in them.

With good boundaries, as well as openness, compassion as well as a strong sense of justice.

I look around our festival circles, see our lovers, our warriors, our crafters, our farmers, our healers, our *people...* and that gives me great hope.

Like the Lady says: "Let there be Beauty and Strength, Power and Compassion, Honour and Humility, Mirth and Reverence within you."

Yeah, we can do that. :)

By those standards, I'd say we're doing pretty well, from what I've seen. :)

Star Hawk, Paganplace, et al.,

If I wasn't who I am I would probably be wiccan too, as it is I am an ECLATi-ON. <:o)

I respect your religion very much and am glad you finally won your battle. Your love of nature and your generousness is to be admired.

Jihadist,

You are a warm hearted, intelligent person and I like you!

FRANK:

YOU, sir, ARE A HORSES ASS! <\:-(

I think the words you're looking for are the Wiccan Rede: 'If it harms none, do as you will.'

This doesn't tell people to 'do what feels good,' but rather it places responsibility for our actions on *us:* if it harms none, do what *you* will.

People who haven't lived by it often have some difficulty conceiving of the fact that humans don't become slavering hedonists without the threats and promises of external religious control.

People who live by such threats and promises tend to be the ones who go nuts when they think no one's looking, or if they think the other guy is sufficiently 'evil.'

The Rede teaches us to be free, of good will, and aware of the effects of our actions, not always trying to 'justify' them. A very simple phrase that in practice is quite deep.

It seems to me that I hear a lot from Christians about, 'If my God didn't say no, I'd do all kinds of things I think are bad.'

Why would you *want* that, if you thought it was bad?

I think a lot of folks don't realize that even if they obey a book, that they still have to make their own choices, ...they're just displaced onto terms of obeying one part or another of said book, (which obviously doesn't really work that well, it'd seem, unless the point is to get people obsessedf with other people's sex lives) instead of directly in the world.

Frank,

It's not "if it feels good, do it." It's more "If it feels good, AND doesn't hurt anyone, then do it." At least that's what I've gotten from most people I meet.

I'm not going to go Christian bashing in the way you are attempting to bash others, includeing the writer of the peice these comments are supposed to be about.

I shall quote the great prophet.... Obit Wan Kenobi! "What I have told you is the truth.....from a certain point of view." Good/evil and many other concepts that we as mortal beings like to hold as truths are subject to the point of view of those who are witnessing them.

I don't know you, however I will make a suggestion. You may want to take up a different hobby. This habit of hanging around places such as this on the internet and dreaming up connections between people and spewing the type of things that you have brought up here can't be good for you physically or spiritually. Might I suggest tabletop games like Warhammer 40k? Painting miniatures can be quite relaxing, helped bring down my blood pressure :)

All you demonstrate there, Frank, is that you *don't get it.* Because you were *taught* to not get it, but rather trot out the usual defamation: "All you believe is 'If it Feels Good, Do It."

First all the Muslims in the world, and now you're trying to tell *me* what I believe.

Badly, I might add.

You've quoted Starhawk saying, well, I guess what I've been trying to say, here:

"We might say that the simplistic formulation, "They are evil; we are good" leads to its corollary, "We are justified in destroying them by any means whatsoever." And that is the very ideology that motivates the bombers, as well, and which throughout human history has led to the worst atrocities."

Evil's a dangerous word to throw around. Certainly, if instead of responding to *actions,* in a rational and just and productive manner, we responding to *labels* with hatred and intolerance , well, we'd hardly call that *good.*

Would you?

I still think Frank got sodomized by a Muslim, and that's why he is full of rage.

Hopefully he bought you dinner first Frank.

this is what starhawk wrote:
"After the terrorist bombings in London that ripped apart a bus and several tube stations and killed more than 50 people, British Prime Minister Tony Blair declared the need to wipe out the "ideology of evil" that the bombs represented.

Evil is a construct Pagans try to avoid. Our theology, or rather, thealogy, (Goddess-knowing) teaches us that dark and light, life and death, creation and destruction exist in balance, and to cut off or condemn one aspect opens us to the imbalance that leads to cruelty and horror. We might say that the simplistic formulation, "They are evil; we are good" leads to its corollary, "We are justified in destroying them by any means whatsoever." And that is the very ideology that motivates the bombers, as well, and which throughout human history has led to the worst atrocities.

But if we reject the concept of evil, how do we respond to horrific acts? Is there a specifically Pagan response to such violence? There is no central Pagan authority, no Pagan Pope to issue bulls, no Pagan rabbinical authority to say who does or does not have the right to interpret for us. We have no sacred scriptures to interpret, anyway. As Pagans, we are each our own spiritual authority, each with our own connection to the Goddess.

From that authority, I offer one Pagan's response to the bombings. While we have no Bible, no set of commandments, we do have nature as our teacher, and a set of rough ethics that value life, balance, and interconnection. We feel an immediate, intuitive horror at the taking of life, and at the randomness of this death. To die because I chose to fight in the military, or to take a particular risk, or even because I incurred a particular enemy, at least has some sense of cause and meaning."

at first i thought you might actually be logical and not a fool. i was wrong.
you are not logical. your "religion" says - if it feels good do it.
and no matter what anyone does or believes - they cant be evil - unless they are christian. ok i added that last part - but it falls into what you have been writing.
and no evil? not even hitler or stalin? no evil at all?
you are a fool.

I think you know those are lies and defamations, Frank. True colors are coming out, aren't they?

Blaming us for 9/11, now?

Hate to be the one to point it out, but Bush&co got more Americans killed out of faith-based blindness and incompetence than died on 9/11.

I've told you over and over that I don't agree with , really, most of the premises or dictates of Islam, or Christianity, for that matter. I'm a *Pagan.* I don't believe in books in that way you try to use to 'prove' I should hate people I don't know.

To what end, you still won't say. I think you don't even *know,* or are looking to justify someone committing the same sorts of horrors you fear from someone else.

It's illogical, irrational, and hateful, and no one's buying it. Now cool it.

well pagan - still whinning about 2000 i see. well you lost that one - get over it.
and i know that what you really wanted on 911 was every christian dead but that did not happen wither. the world is so hard on you i see.
and still loving that class warfare stull - well you lost there too.
looks like you lost all the way around.
the world is just so hard on you.
here is an idea - maybe iran or saudi arabia or pakistan will be a good place for you - everything you lost here in america you can find living with your loving islamic brothers and sisters.

"As Pagans are you happy with where our religion is now as opposed to where it was say … 10 years ago?

Silvlaro"

I think, Silvarlo, that the past ten years have represented perhaps a coming-of-age for much of the community: it seemed our biggest problems were a clergy shortage, and perhaps what to do with a sort of sense of boundless optimism that was cut a bit short by the shock of the stolen 2000 election, and later, the events around 9/11 and the 'War on Terror,' ...with newer communities and groups forming and preparing to step up into somewhat more visible and open roles in our communities.

An emboldened Religious Right and all the fear and intolerance all this was used to engender has definitely made the past *seven* years take a different shape, with discretion being more of a watchword for many of us.

But a coming-of age it's been, after all, I think, ...among adversity I think some character, even if the visible pentacles and other symbols that were once becoming commonly visible have had to be tucked away by many people, a concession to the general climate out there, it seems: There's another sign of the times: people being afraid to be open about their religion in America... Yikes. Even that sort of Renfaire-influenced sense of Pagan fashion seems to have gone out the window, (possibly on that, people just got bored with it, but I thought it was kind of charming.)

At the same time, I think we've become somewhat more galvanized on issues of importance to us. Assaults on religious freedom and the environment from the current administration and the fundamentalists in America seem to have increased our commitment and activism on these issues, as well as others. It may have brought our tendency to fractiousness down to a more reasonable level in some ways, too. Certainly, I see several Pagan communities thriving and developing traditions of their own, and maybe a real sense of extended family among the Pagan community at large , however independent or even isolated the individuals may be.

We've certainly made some strides in freedom, largely thanks to some leadership and focus on the Wiccan headstone issue, a step toward guaranteeing our freedom and rightful place in American society, against some highly unjust resistance.

I think, too, that we've potentially seen the peak of the fundamentalist influence in America as regards ourselves and those things we hold dear: support for these things and the related political party are on the wane: as the promises and scare tactics prove hollow, and the policies ineffectual.

We may yet breathe free, and be the stronger for all this. What will be ahead, I think, is the development of community, to better support our elders, our children, and our sick and injured.

Many of us, I think, will find ourselves well-equipped to cope with the likely-inevitable belt tightening that the climactic situation and the mismanaged global political situation is going to force sooner or later, as well. At least, the bill for this Iraq misadventure and the tax-cuts-for-the-wealthy are going to come due.

I think we'll be there for each other, and those around us.

Ariel - opinions are like butt holes - everybody has one and they all stink. but you asked so i will answer.
as to the old testament - i know of no country that applies jewish law on any topic where there is punishment. while you are free to agree or disagree with anyone - and you can tell them so - you do not have the right to enforce any law except that one established in the country where you live and then only when the state does the punishment.
the only place i know where slavery is allowed is in a few islamic africian states. it is no longer acceptable and no one should be sold into slavery.
as to a woman and her period - that is up to her. she gets the right to say yes or no and you have the same right, but neither of you can force the other. as for sex during her period - i feel that is a personal choice - no matter what the old testament says - but that does not prevent you from following it.
in america we have a constitution and fought a civil war - that cost the loves of 640,000 americans and no slavery is allowed - it includes peonage too - which is what the mexicans used to call it and it applied to how mexicans kept their people but under peonage they were not required to actually take care of them. both are illegal in the america's - all the america's - although cuba and some other south american countries think slavery to the state is acceptable.
working on the sabbath are religious laws and the only countries today that rely on religious to write and enfore their laws are islamic countries. so the answer is no - you cannot enforce a religious law in the west - unless that law is also part of the civil law.
shellfish and sex are not part of the civil law scheme of most western countries. again - religious laws are only enforceable in islamic countries but i dont think they apply to the jewish laws of the old testament. what is or is not acceptable sexual conduct is personal - enjoy yourself - unless it involves children. now the only place that allows sex with children as young as 9 are islamic countries as they say they are following the acts of moho - who married a baby of 6 and finally had full on sex at 9, although he did everything else. while its ok in iran and a few other countries - even if so sanctioned if you do it in a western country you cant claim your religion allows you to do it. civil authorities establish the age of consent. iran says its 9.
as for homo conduct - well its obviously not the common thing or two men or two women would be able to breed between themselves and they cant, and the main purpose of sex is reproduction - but it does feel great.
i dont know where the alter of god is - so when you find it let me know. but i do know that the old testament rules apply only to jews and no one else. maybe israel enforces that one, but i dont know. to my knowledge the only group that tries to enforce their religious laws on people outside their religion and outside the country where the laws exist - is islam. millions marching to ask for death for a cartoon of moho. millions marching to ask for the death of the pope for quoting another pope who said that the forced conversions noted in the koran was evil. i believe they asked for death for insulting islam.
two crops in one field - well if he is a jew that might be a big deal to him but not to me. everyone is free to follow their own believe and to apply them to themselves and no other. today the only group that forces its religious laws on others are islamic. and the dual planting probably had something to do with crop rotation as did allowing a field to lay fallow every specific number of years. lots of biblical laws appear to me - who does not have to follow them - to be more practical than religious - but if you want to say they are religious - good for you. like no sex during a womans period. it you look at the days - you will see that who ever wrote that one knew about when a woman could get pregnant.

let me ask you a question. if i tell you that jews are dirty vile people is that acceptable? if i tell you that jews are the main cause of evil in the world is that acceptable? if i tell you that jews must be hunted down and killed is that acceptable? if i tell you i wrote this down in a book called mein kampf does that make it acceptable?
then why would it be acceptable if its also in the koran.

as i keep saying - believe as you wish. accept the laws of your religion and discard those of other religions.
but you dont get to force your religious laws on others and you sure dont get to harm them if they violate your religious laws. there is one exception - if someone lives in a country where religious laws are also civil laws.

Frank,

I'm actually kind of impressed - you seen to know the Koran really well. May I ask why, since it's nothing but evil evil evil to you? You remind me of a SUPER-HETERO! man who collects gay porn "to prove how evil homosexuality is....."

If you're interested in all those lines about killing, raping, murdering, etc. you should check out Leviticus sometime. It's pretty interesting how some of those laws - still included in the Holy Bible - are so violent and hateful. The following "letter" to Dr. Laura Schlessinger might illuminate some of these issues for you:

Dear Dr. Laura,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

(note for Thegreg: He trolls all the threads with this same stuff, really. Never answers questions of what we'd be supposed to *do* if we agreed 'there are no moderate Islamics' and that they were all as evil as he claims.

I think now he's just trying to convince himself we're the bad guys because we aren't going to *become* what he fears in others. )

I don't normally post here, though I do love to read the articles and the comments that ensue. However I just have to ask this one thing.

Where in the good green earth did Islam come into the discussion? Starhawk wrote a lovely article that does not seem to have anything to do with Christianity, antiChristianity, Islam, or being in any way affiliated with Islam.

Mr. Frank, can you please explain to me why you felt it nessicary to begin this discussion here? I'm sure there are any number of places where you can discuss your dislike of Islam and of various Pagan groups and your theories of them being in league with one another. I would just like to know the reason you, personally (no church, christian ideals, blah blah blah, putting you up to it, YOU) decided to take a simple discussion of an article that was starting out quite nicely and turn it into your own soap box?

Is it such a bad thing to you for other people to have a nice conversation that has nothing to do with you or your ideals that you have to insert yourself forcefully into the conversation?

I'm not sure who you're accusing of what there, 'Anonymous,' but you seem to be putting words in our mouths. We don't hate Christians, nor do we hate Muslims. Your idea seems to be to define Muslims as 'evil' then accuse us of 'defending this evil' because we say you're being *unfair and unproductive in your attacks,* ...you're simply trying to create fear and hatred and we're not buying it. What we may agree with or disagree with about Islam has nothing to do with this discussion, and I simply don't know what you would want us to do even if you could *get* us to hate people who are, for the most part, far away.

It's especially ludicrous to try and get us to believe that we should be hateful about your view of Islam when we experience plenty of intolerance here at home from Christians.

Not. Buying it. Now. On to the discussion we're trying to have.

in 'In Vino Veritas' were actually true - they would get everyone good a drunk before they testified at a trial. in vino there is nothing at all - just drunk.
and no i dont believe that there are witches - talking with the devil and changing into cats, no more than i believe in vampires, and men who change into wolves. but i dont have to - as long as i dont interfer with your right to believe it and if you believe it you do not interfer with my righ to believe what i want.

but the right to believe stops at the end of your body - you dont get to force anyone to believe as you do and you dont get - for an alleged reason or not - to touch them if they dont want to be touched.

so please go on and defent islam and think they are ever so good for you - that is a right you have too and i would not prevent you from thinking they are your best friends. it appears you do have hate of christians in common - and that too is your right. there is a saying in islam "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" but no one ever talks about the second part. "until our common enemy is defeated."

Viejita:

Very well said. Sounds like you've been doing some homework. I was raised Jewish so for me the whole 'devil' thing was really quite vague.

Four points of the pentacle representing elements of earth, air, fire, water.. the point at the top is spirit above all else. At least that's my understanding of it. The Satanists have the point down. Why is a bit sketchy to me, but it's easy for others to confuse one for the other. My symbol is entirely different, at least for now. It may change as time goes on. Who knows?

Mr. Collins:

Seeing as how our practices have nothing to do with any book, I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't approve of anyone or anything that advocates violence, but I have to fully plead ignorance when it comes to the scriptures of other people and therefore am not qualified to even attempt to step into such a trap.

Silvlaro:

I have not read up enough on how the practices have changed within the last decade, I'm afraid. I'm only a few years into reading about the history, and only a few MONTHS into any sort of personal practice. I'm only now starting to discover my path.

The more I read, though, the more it seems like there's still so much work to be done. It really gets overwhelming sometimes.

Frank:

So anyone who does not agree with you that Islam is eveil is secretly a terrorist sympathizer bent on destruction of all "infidels"?

You should check out the Landover Baptist website. You sound a lot like them, except that they do it as satire.

and how am i closed minded? and i dont see anyting that appears to indicate that any church provided me with any information.
but the fact you said CHURCH leads one to believe that you are still hooked on this THE CHRISTIANS ARE EVIL line. ok - assume they are - does that make islam any more friendly and reasonable?
and you have your metaphore wrong. its a flyswatter and sledgehammer. are you sure your not one of those islmaics pretending to be someone else?
hell i would love for islam to renounce those parts of the koran that are evil. you do think that those quoted parts of the koran are evil dont you? if you dont then we dont have any common ground for discussion.
and you are appearing to be playing the islam word game. accusing anyone who quotes the koran's evil verses as being a boggot and closed minded. like those verses are evidence of love for ones fellow man.
and if it not for what is going on today, and in the past, as well as those stated assertions of what they intended to do and why, then maybe i would not find evil in islam.
so lets see if you are an islamic in an infidels clothing. do you renounce and find as evil those quoted verses of the koran? if you are islamic you will come up with some reason not to.

I am a firm believer in using the correct tool for the job. I just can’t see the need for a ball peen hammer in place of a fly swatter. At the same time however I do believe in exchanging tools when it is apparent that the one you are using isn’t getting the job done. My husband tells me that there are just times when “subtle” won’t get you anywhere and the only recourse is a very blatant broadside. Unfortunately I think that in this case he may be correct. I do hope that those of you who are attempting to learn from one an other and actually exchange thoughts here, will excuse the following rant. I will get back on topic before I close this post...

Mr. Collins based on what I have seen from you here you are just as bigoted and closed minded as those you profess to hate. The attitude you radiate is exactly the type of manic paranoia that brought about stoning, hanging, drowning, and burning, which brought so much pain, suffering and death. Do some research outside of the “church” propaganda and you just may discover some actual facts that they don’t tell you because they A) use fear as a tool to control, B) want to hide the atrocities they have perpetrated, and C) do not want the truth known because it will leave them with egg on their collective faces. Get over the hate mongering complex and get a real education or are you afraid that we may be right?

A closed mind lives behind steel bars and barbed wire
No light may enter into the dwelling place
Shadows are the friends and protectors
In darkness there is security

Yet in sealing out possibilities it seals out life
There is no newness or joy in discovery
There are no rainbows or dreams
Wishes and fantasy are something others have

To live one must experience
To grow there needs be light
Weighing and considering each action
Reaching out to grasp opportunities, take risks

Closing off is a form of death
Growing, participating, living takes work
When faced with the choice
For I would rather live than exist

*taking a deep breath*

Now then…somewhere, in this shouting match, the topic seems to have gotten misplaced. Is there any possibility of our getting back to exchanging information or are we going to have to endure more of the delusions that Mr. Rude-much has decided are “truths” that we all need to be made aware of? I for one would like to go back to having an intelligent exchange of thoughts and ideas, anyone else?

Since it looks as though we have dived into the whole “where we started v.s. where we are headed” thing let me take the original question and re-word it a bit. As Pagans are you happy with where our religion is now as opposed to where it was say … 10 years ago?

Silvlaro

Mr. Collins,
You have the best chance to learn what Witches are, what our beliefs are without the preconcieved ideas. Open your mind and ask us questions..I know that we all will do our best to answer honestly.

terra

Paganplace
I noticed that.
Frank
The pentagram -- labeled Satanist by early Christians -- hardly provides evidence that Wiccans are secretly Satan worshippers. As I understand it, the five-pointed star was a symbol of pagan remnants that made the early Christians nervous because they were people who could not be politically controlled by the state religion. Anything that makes church authorities nervous must be from the devil, que no?
Blaming Wiccans for Satanism on the evidence of a common symbol would be akin to blaming Hindus for Nazism because of the swastika. Latino gangs use images of Mary to signify their ethnicity. Does that mean all Catholics are secretly gang members?
Just trying to see where some of your assumptions lead...

Hey, did he actually call us Satanic or something in there? I really do tend to tune that out by now.

That'd be frickin' rich. Telling us to worry about Muslims while telling a well-armed superstitious nation we serve ultimate evil.

Whooyah.

Mr. Collins,

We witches and pagans are very real. Minus maybe the green face paint. It tends to chafe. :)

As for burning, from the best research I can find, a whole lot of 'god fearing' Christians went up in smoke. The best they can figure is about 40000 (?) practicing witchcraft. (Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). Mostly because witches and pagans are often either also raised in one of the Abrahamic faiths to blend in and not raise suspicions, or are VERY good at hiding in plain sight in other ways when it is deemed necessary. Still, one death is too many, and the repercussions of utter misinformation and hatred based on ignorance have trickled down to this day.

We have some trouble with anyone espousing hatred of others without consideration for the fact that there are fundamentalists to be found in every faith. Right now it's Islam that's getting all the bad press. After the mess in the Middle East is resolved in some way (for better or worse), someone else will take the limelight.

You do not know us, as you admit, yet you came here claiming that our very real experiences are somehow 'all in our mind' and that we have something to do with some sort of Christian devil that I, for one, have never even heard of. It is that sort of attitude that ennables those horrible things we speak of to happen. Insulting those you're speaking to is automatically going to have the net effect of making you both unheard and appearing to be just as hateful as the terrorists are.

Please be careful that you don't become one of those types of people that you purport to rail against. And don't do it here. Exchanging ideas is fine, but this is for people who are interested in talking to us and really maybe trying to find out a little bit about who we are. If you are one of those, fine. If not, please go elsewhere.

Don't worry about it, Jihadist, we Irish have been taking 'In Vino Veritas' to the next level for several thousand years. It'll get sorted. :)

Now, Frank, About that whole 'Dark Side Of The Force...'

Would you like to meet some human beings?

Frank Collins

Of course I'm a violent Muslim. You did not catch me on CNN last night waving a placard screaming, "DEATH TO STUPID IDEAS!" But they took me away and had me whipped 50 lashes for apostasy of placard statements. It was suppose to be "DEATH TO DANISH PASTRIES BY CHEWING ON THEM!"

We have taken over Europe and the United States already. All Americans and Europeans are now Muslims. We have also undertaken the Inquisition and burned, stoned and whipped all who would not yield to Islam.

And there is still Latin America, Africa, Asia to conquer for the realization of a global Islamic caliphate. All will live under Shariah law. All women will be made to wear the hijab and niqab too. Saves them on make-ups and keeping up with fashion. Who needs Prada? After all, the devil wears Prada.

We can conquer the world, convert everyone to Islam without nukes, Stealth bombers and well equiped armies.

And, best of all, under the Islamic caliphate, under Shariah, all men like you will be allowed a maximum of 4 wives. Want in?

I think you left some of your spelling and capitalization in one of your empties, Frank. :)

Read again.

I've been *saying* you're trying to sell everyone on some fear of some things that you claim are about Islam and never Christianity ....yet which most of us have been experiencing *from* Christians all our lives.

You're still trying to say, 'But someone else is 'worse!'

I told you I don't care. It's like someone smacking you around and saying, 'Be glad this isn't a Communist country, or you'd get worse.'

Yah. Think that.

The challenge is elsewhere.

It is in fact, *here.*

pagan - in reverse order of what you said:
did the ever burn a witch? are there any such things as people think of them?
i remember reading about a looney bunch of girls who would howl and wale and pretend that there were devils that only ythey could see.
so i dont know any which that was ever burned - but they sure burned a lot of innocent people who did nothing to merit anything like it, or any other punishment.
that is what happens when allegted christians think they have answers that no one else has, and they are always wrong.

and when did i ever defend any atrocities - and why is quoting the stated belief of a people - ande then pointing out that they are and have been and therefore will in the future - act in accord to those beliefs, make me the bad guy.

if you met a new person and wanted to talk to them to find out if they are the kind of person you want to have a relationship with. they tell you that they hate, jews, christians, hindu's and idlitors - would you stay around for the second course? what if they then told you that they believe in kidnapping for ranson, totture, murder, and sex with 9 year olds - still interrested in being their new best friend?
and lastly they tell you that all that they just told you was not just a belief but a command from their god. want to hang around them any more.

well that is islam. im not making anything up - i read the book they say rules their life and then i see that they have in the past and currently live according to that book. i quote their book and i show facts about conduct.

as for a pagan - i dont know what you are - the fact you have a different belief system does not mean anything to me. as long as you dont engage in hate - well you can hate nazi's, ss members, and the kkk, but putting that hate into action - then even they get rights in america.

and think about this - the god of islam - after 2,500 years of protecting the jews, and giving them the massia he promised [according to the jews and christians] then decided to create a new religion and butcher and kill the only two groups in the world that believe in him. that makes no since at all.

but for you pagan - you appear to want to make nice with islam - and you are entitled to be fooled - but look up islam and pagans and see not only what the koran says - but how islam acted in the past, and currently, when they come upon pagans.

and islam has already put millions of them into the streets and called for your death pagan - it you even looked at a cartoon of moho. you insulted islam by that act and 50-100 million islamics marched to inforce their right to kill you, if they could.

I think we try not to focus on the abuses we've suffered in the past because then we lose our own ability to see the present and the beauty that lives around us. Our families and society's pain becomes our own until we learn to send it back from whence it came, hopefully softened and transmuted into a better shape. That's the goal anyway.

Paganplace:

I was raised in Texas and still consider it a part of me. But I did notice the tendency of others to assume that everyone was like them. Raised Jewish there gave me a touch of both mystery and a target on my forehead. (Paganism moved it to my back and just made it bigger and neon. :) )Given the attitudes of some (though not all) of the folks there, it's somehow not surprising that they came up with a law like that. Keep in mind, this is where our Fearless Leader King George is from.

You said: "Also, while we're on the topic, just wondering if anyone who's trying to incite hatred of certain divinely-sanctioned sorts ever wonders why 'burning witches' a) Keeps happening, whenever certain types are given the power, and b) Never works?"

Remember, these are the same folks who think it's ok to blow holes in other people's countries and then wonder why A) the folks they invade don't see that blowing up their homes is really 'helping them be free' , B) that doing so tends to make the homeowners a little pissy and B) that never works either. :)

Also, while we're on the topic, just wondering if anyone who's trying to incite hatred of certain divinely-sanctioned sorts ever wonders why 'burning witches' a) Keeps happening, whenever certain types are given the power, and b) Never works?

Just offhand. While nothing's happening to us or anything, I figure we have the time, right?

Let's look at it this way, Frank... Maybe *you're* the infiltrator, serving a bunch of pernicious ends through some kind of scriptural literalism and fearmongering, hell-bent on a mission in which you're out to destroy the American way of life by deceiving the masses and defending atrocities.

Ever think of that?

Could be we're all just people in a situation, but, if you wanna go with that, I commend you to the nearest mirror. :)

And, I meant, above, to say, 'The Christian Right' rather than 'The Christian,' ...a typo, but you may understand here how hard it can be to draw those distinctions. Frank.

There are so many indignities, assaults and abuses I and so many others have personally put up with upon our persons... With, I think, a great deal of grace and patience, but as someone found out when he hauled off and kicked a cat that was a friend of mine (not even 'my' cat,) ..with of course, a 'God Damn' .... *you do not mess with the animal friends,* if you don't want some very human responses.

Or possibly any 'Unhallowed sh**hammers of the Morrigan' that may be to hand.

We Pagans don't really live in a world where much is 'black and white,' but there is a point past which talk ends.

As our founding fathers in America put on a flag, against a tyranny that styled itself divinely-ordained:

"Don't tread on me."

As for Frank's little crusade, did you know that in our 'Christian nation?' laws against *animal cruelty* came ahead of laws against doing the same thing to *children?*

In Texas, even, the Christian put forth an anti-gay law which in *the same bill* said 'Oh, it's OK to rape animals, as long as you own the animal.'

Same thing as that Koran you can't look away from said in those passages.

"(aside: am I a bad person for getting more upset when I hear of animals being murdered than people?)"

Probably not. We're subjected to a lot of things meant to inure us to the killing of people, 'for a reason' however thin that may be.

Animals are supposed to be the keepers of our innocence, even for those of us, and to the extent that, we have internalized the idea of 'Original sin.'

I think when reading about people murdering our pets, it's just unmitigated *nast.* You can't even rationalize that, well, they believe the hurt is justified, ...cause they *killed a trusting animal and smeared the blood all over to 'prove' how 'evil' what they think they're fighting is.*

It's a little easier to feel the sorrow over that, cause when they attack us as *people,* well, even if they have no more feeling or sanity about it, it's about *people.*

Killing pets to 'spread the Gospel,' well, that's just a horror and a tragedy.

Athena,

I just read an interview by Darla Wynne. I had tears in my eyes when I read what was done to her animals.

(aside: am I a bad person for getting more upset when I hear of animals being murdered than people?)

Kudos to her for standing up for her beliefs and refusing to let her neighbors' actions force her out. I don't think I would be able to be that strong were I in that situation.

"can you have a good nazi" ?

Ask the Pope.

Mr. Collins,

If you want *PROOF* of hate crimes committed by the state against Wiccans, google the name "Darla Wynne" and see what you come up with. Read what happened to her and her defenseless pets all because she spoke up for her rights.

As for rape, murder, pedophilia, forced conversion, etc., the Islamists have nothing on the Christians for doing these exact same acts.

Jihadist - "Men are swine. I don't eat pork because I can't stand pigs." BWAHAHAHA!!!! I love it! That made my day! Thanks!

I'd go further to say that these 'all or nothing,' 'us vs them' divisive tactics are the real thing we have to defend against. It'll hardly matter if someone else is tyrannical if we embrace tyranny at home out of fear of it.

Hardly matters how much you call someone *backward* if the 'answer' is *going backwards.*

I think America's finding out that the promises of these elements have proven hollow already.

It certainly won't matter how warlike we think someone is if through neglect and bad policy we just end up creating the *conditions* for war ourselves ...and quite possibly a great deal of death in other, more direct ways, say, by despoiling the environment or screwing up the world in other ways out of such fears and willful-ignorances, either.

What to do about a world full of religious strife and the potential for greater terrors, well, that's a valid question: but the answer surely isn't 'more of the same.' Certainly even if you think these things are looming, that doesn't mean it's smart be scared into letting a bad administration exhaust our economic and military resources on 'faith based' moves that make things worse.

Probably the only thing worse than getting imperialist is trying to and *screwing it up.*

Looking for 'justifications' for wars when the real question should have been 'what good do you expect to come of this?' That alone should have argued for continued restraint. The thing about all this Orwellian stuff we're experiencing, Frank, is that in part we were lied to because most of America *lets* itself be lied to. Fox News is mere propaganda, but people *watch* because that's what they are told they want to hear.

Meanwhile, stratification and dissatisfaction in our own country grows... If you sell people on the idea that they need to embrace one book literally, and perhaps in irrational ways: if you teach, essentially, that freedom and pluralism and coexistence and equality *aren't* good things, essentially, well, then you'll only have yourself to blame if some people turn around and pick a different authority with the same sorts of goals.

Fact is, if you spread hatred and intolerance, it'll come back to you, and there's no Biblical commentary that'll prevent that: no deflecting of the blame that'll do more than help it snowball.

Me, I'm not counting out the quieter forces of understanding, and an innate desire we all have to live in harmony. We just have to be responsible for our own perceptions. Then, if it comes to a fight, at least it'll be an honest one.

Now, I'm not 'defending Islam,' ..I'm not even qualified for that. I'm quite often saying when proselytized at by them, 'You do realize that there's a lot of stuff in that book I find pretty alarming.'

Gets down to 'There is no compulsion in religion,' and then I'm like, 'I don't know what that means in Arabic, but in English, all it does is say 'compulsion in religion' *doesn't exist.* Someone could just turn around and say that means that whatever they do isn't compulsion. And yes, most of the tolerance clauses aren't worded such that they include me, even if they were probably originally intended to refer to specific tribes Muhammad's guys were at war with at the time.

Most Muslims I