"On Faith" panelist Starhawk is a prominent voice in modern Wiccan spirituality and cofounder of Reclaiming (www.reclaiming.org), an activist branch of modern Pagan religion. She is the author or coauthor of ten books, including The Spiral Dance: A Rebirth of the Ancient Religion of the Great Goddess (1979) --considered an essential text for the Neo-Pagan movement--and the novel The Fifth Sacred Thing (1993) . Her works have been translated into Spanish, French, German, Danish, Dutch, Italian, Portuguese, Polish, Greek, Japanese, and Burmese. Many of Starhawk's political essays were collected into her book Webs of Power: Notes from the Global Uprising . Her newest book is The Earth Path: Grounding Your Spirit in the Rhythms of Nature . Starhawk has also recorded several tapes and CDs; most recently Wicca for Beginners (2002), Wiccan Rituals and Blessings (2003), and a four-CD set Earth Magic (2006), all produced by Sounds True. She consulted on and contributed to three films known as the Women's Spirituality series, directed by Donna Read for the National Film Board of Canada: Goddess Remembered, The Burning Times, and Full Circle . Committed to bringing the techniques and creative power of spirituality to political activism, Starhawk travels internationally teaching magic, the tools of ritual, and the skills of activism.
Close.
Starhawk
Co-founder, Reclaiming
"On Faith" panelist Starhawk is a prominent voice in modern Wiccan spirituality and cofounder of Reclaiming (www.reclaiming.org), an activist branch of modern Pagan religion. She is the author or coauthor of ten books, including The Spiral Dance: A Rebirth of the Ancient Religion of the Great Goddess (1979) --considered an essential text for the Neo-Pagan movement--and the novel The Fifth Sacred Thing (1993) .
more »
i think where the fault lies in not your apprehension of "mindless creation" but of your underlying believe that all was created from mind.
I cant stand to use the word God,
for it represents something of a far greater nature, of course mind, compassion, hatred, love
are in its very nature because everything and nothing are contained within it...
Attempts to humanize such phenomenon, with phrases like "intelligent design" i find demeaning
for those of religious faith the fact that you are arguing about it shows the very limited understanding you have of it....
From the Scientist to the Preacher who would approach that which is beyond intellect through
study of external phenomenon alone, such as a Holy book...
you will only confuse yourself...and be further from the truth
I have no miracle key, i have no ploy or marketing gimmicks, i dont even write this with a name....so you have an idea of what i want in return for this pearl i give you...not even recognition
all i have is words,
the truth of it? it must be experianced.
and the only way to experiance it is to look inside, that which is the most intimate with all
likewise resides in the most intimate recesses of your very own being...
you must search for it internally because experiance by its very nature, is dependant on phenomenonal response within
not without
It is not withought mention that the great enlightened beings of our history were also known for meditating voraciously This includes, Jesus Christ, The Prophet Mohammad, The Buddah to name a few
(the halo around the heads of holy individuals characterized by the color gold, is also well known in the worlds most ancient eastern philosophies in its regard to the crown chakra (energy vortice of the highest vibratory rate located in the crown of the head) which activates upon awakening in the distinct goldend color..at which time the being is enlightened and is gifted with what appears to be supernatural abilities
i was once asked a question "well with supernatural abilities why didnt they take over the world"
These entities never argued, or tryd to pursuade through force, but helped fellow man ceaslesly while teaching.
(it is also worthy of note that some of the first recorded enlightened beings Hanuman being amonsgt them, were not human beings but "ape like men"
if you didnt get a chill up your spine, when the phrase "evolution" popped into your head re read it
imagine that...a relatively "stupid" neanderthal realized it, but "intelligent" human beings still have trouble? wait a second here...
if not the intellect then what? oh no? the hair maybe?
The answer is self evident. They would have never reached such a perfect level of awareness had they had the conscious baggage of accumulated wrong actions against fellow men...
another words, these were plain old good folks.
intelligence is limitation of the human mind..
it is measurable
it is far more tangible
which by default makes it appear easier to comprehend
that which is beyond description...
to give you an idea of the scope of what the limited intellect is faced with....
The current theory of the universe as per steve hawkster is "an infinite number of big bangs" (wow almost sounds like macro level karma)
The moment of impact, the very precise moment of the transformation of energy and vast redirection of forces....or very simply, the very moment of change from one phenomenon to another
is known affectionately as the Singularity (no doubt an allusion to the percieved rare nature of such phenomenon)
It is said at this point of singularity, this moment of exact change in phenomenon, the laws of physics and mathematics completely breakdown,
and the descriptive capacity of language utterly and literrally breaks down...(all traits of the intellect mind you)
Science attempted pure objective intellect in its varied forms to bring to light the nature of the moment. Its various tools of quantum physics and mathematics, the tool of language...
you see many would see that as our intellect is limited, in that percievably in the future we will have developed the knowledge to again approach the mountain
you see it wasnt a matter of limitation, it was a matter the utterly useless ability of the purely intellectual endeavors in approaching something of such all encompassing nature..
(notice-im not describing sciences approach to God, oh no, im only talking about the futility in the Singularity, remember that)
now say cheese and smile cause this ones about to make your eyes squint...
from quanta to photons, protons to atoms, from atoms to elements, from elements to substance, through tissue, through organ, through body, through our very own mother earth and her sun
to the galaxy, the clusters and to the superclusters ad infinitum...
at each and every moment, through conception throught aging to death,
from the arising from each thought in your mind, to the seasonal changes on earth to the formation of super duper clusters to the big bang and beyond
each is in a CONSTANT state of transision...
they may appear relatively solid to the untrained mind (not the eye)but each is in the process of arising, being, and ceasing...
So each and every moment if you were to freeze frame (which is impossible) not just one object, but every known and knowable phenomenon that we are aware of and that which we are not
is in a state of changing form. All ways. All the time. Right now.
and right now
thus each is likewise the very same Singularity
that wich is attributed (only) to the big bang.
read it again if you feel the need, let it sink.
if your eyes are not open or you are thinking of a counter argument, you didnt comprehend... read it again if you need...
yes friend what im saying is that everything at from thoughts to washing machines represent, at their very foundation a Singularity...
it just so happens to Giant Stones in space forced us to attempt to understand the same phenomenon at a point many see as extra ordinary
when in fact it is very very all encompasingly ordinary...
that freeze frame of impossiblity that no reasoning approach can grasp, was grasped fully, by good biengs....
and what they saw drove them each to literrally stop theyre lives and live out, and suffer for the sole hope that they could bring it to the eyes of other biengs
so they could feel the happiness and the joy of it
so that they may know that there is a very valid purpose to life, and there is no reason for strife or suffering...
Perhaps these human beings actions put the experiance of the constantly happening singularity which is reality into perspective...
i only recieved a fleeting kiss of this ultimate true nature, and now look what im doin? im 26 years old, this is not what i do! hahah
when i saw it late at night meditating under my neighbors tree (martial arts related at the time)
i thought i was dead because i felt so damn good and joyful, when i pinched myself i realized i wasnt then said oh no! im not supposed to figure it out! at which point i tried to forget it while looking above to see if the tree was gonna fall on me. (no folks, no previous episodes of mental abberations, on the contray i was the rock that others came to and clung to for support all my life)
But each negative possible outcome i would imagine, disappeared immidiately upon rising..
i could see negative thoughts of bills, cheating girls literrally get sucked away replaced by joy
i went home with a huge smile on my face, laid down and for fun thought negative thoughts just to watch them vanish as if in a vacuum..
i layd down and cried for the first time in 13 years and they were tears of the firt true happiness i could ever rem feeling. (not a cryer either folks)
Science has unwittingly discovered "scientific" proof of the truth and they dont even know it...
you will never find it on the outside.
it is impossible. if you argue it is futile because your are stating online simply that you are afraid to study and know yourself
as well you should be, for that is where the ony demons lay..
whatever you do and whoever you are, i hope you begin your personal journey, but whether you do or not i hope for nothing but eternal happiness for you bud, you deserve it.
Oh! How poignant! This is a concept I have tried to explain in regards to my choice of being pantheistic and your words have put it so simply, and yet so spot-on. Thank you! After reading The Earth Path, I must say you've become something of a guru to me, making me feel so much more passionate about what I believe and wanting to ACT, so many blessings to you, dear woman, for all that you do.
I was re-reading this thread, and it is obvious that someone has taken out a lot of the posts attacking Paganism. I'm not sure how I feel about that--for one thing, it makes our replies to that person seem disjointed and makes the whole thread, when read from top to bottom, lack unity. I'm not sure whether it is a good thing to censor posts from mature threads. What do you all think?
I am sorry to reply to this event. Religion is not all music. Music or Poetry does affect our lives like religions do. Music is the creation of our brain and our imagination, but religions came to us in order to accept them. We do select our religious belief; a Higher Power calls us to it. Changing religion is neither from our own power. It is a matter of our heart and whom who call us to that transformation. We have no control over it till we decide to master our life and yet, we fall into something that remains mysterious to us. And we may talk millions of time, the mystery still remains and it may even guide us without our consent. We often say sorry after we realize our mistakes. But sometimes we never pay attention that is requested from us.
Many people go to a religious system not because they choose to, but because there was an event in their life that commanded them to it.
Any of us can be commanded today when the time is due. This involves changing religion or changing belief. We read and never come across the truth. The truth may not be mine to be truth. The truth is universal. We either find it or we do not find it.
If we are searching with our own power, we may never get it. Too many of us have the truth and they keep it secret for their own purpose. They do not share it with others who are confused everyday and are suffering searching for it.
One day, one must decide to question his truth by questioning his God or his god. It cannot be any secret that mind cannot cross to believe in something and to stop speculating on something else. That leads many to err.
The game in the world today is the fight over religious beliefs and systems. And, the cautious behavior is to not hurt any one. We need friends, we have a market that needs us and we need it, we do not want to shake the status quo of that market. It is either good or bad. When someone says something that seems evil to others, he has to pay such a heavy price even if what he says makes sense and it is true. He may never say it.
Out of thousands or millions of people who found something in life about their belief a few may attempt to share it. Otherwise, it remains a mystery for the rest of us. How many times we hear people say, “Leave me alone, I do not want to hear it.” They may be right and someone else is coming to confuse them by changing their mind, or they may be wrong, but they lost that opportunity to find what they want. I finally conclude that we are reader reading the same book but come up with a different conclusion. It hurts because we do not come up with the same result.
Some of us found the answer, they twisted it. They denied it, they choke it. If they were able to be honest with us, if they were able to have open mind to listen and to share and to spend sometimes to review their understanding once more on the things that they learned, they may change their philosophy and help many do the same. The training of every leader is to give something new to those who listen, it is to change their conception and force them to be better in what they have to offer. Our belief may go that far and it does. Except that we do not know how many who become better after their training and their reading.
If we have no other name to call it, we can simply say that all religions serve their purpose. It is either a temporary purpose or a long term purpose. It is a matter of destiny.
Where are you from, where are you going, this must be part of our mental focus and do not let any one confuse us when we know that we are on the way. We need to read the relative truths and bring from them the absolute truth. We do not have to speculate, we need to come up with something that makes sense and we will stand before the sense to see if it really makes that sense; if it is true; why we brag about it.
Religion is not science. If it was every one would be silent long time ago. It was not too long ago someone had to look up the sun and tells us the time, but he fails when the sky was cloudy. It was not too long ago when I touch my body and I said, I am hot, I have a fever, but it was not true. Science helps me to find the truth that was relative and becomes absolute. We cannot measure religion. However we can judge it in term of quality, strength, and power that it gives to those who believe in it. It is a force that triggers human being into something that they did not want to do.
To seek truth, we must empty our head of its fullness of reading about facts that are confusing. Does what I see is real? Why do they give it to me? What do I ask to see? What do I ask to know? What can I do by myself? What others gave to me, may I question it? Not all religions are man made and man does not really create any religion. Religion is about worship; spend some times with a Master, with a Higher Power. There is a communication that is vertical and supernatural that takes place when we adhere to its doctrine. It serves as a connection between the weak and the strong and the weak draws power from the strong and his belief becomes stronger till he makes himself one with his Master. It is more than just going to a place of worship and sit down to watch what others are doing. We must stop being observers to become worshipers. The Masters will not reveal their secret and their will to us till we make commitment of whom we choose to worship.
The funny thing to avoid is that there is not even a single baby in this world without a religion, not even an adult without religion. Staying everyday of the week is a silent form of worship. A master is watching our behavior and he chooses us if we do not choose him and he makes us live for him by giving us thoughts, imagination, acceptation or rejection. We either accept one or reject another one. This is the purpose of religions. It is not simply about our personal choice. Since the beginning of time, the choice to worship has been established and our forefathers had to choose from Masters.
Now it is up to us to figure out what is taking place in this world, what is this crazy idea we must fight and someone else must leave us along? We become enemies of each other and we have troubles, we come together to comfort one another and very soon, the same old thing reappears? What sense does it make? We have a cold war in us because we do not know what it is real and what is wrong and again, we must forgive because no one really enters into this battle in his own name within his own power.
We are triggered by forces who call us to goodness and by forces who call us to pain and to suffering. It is part of religion. Either we like it, either we do not like it, we begin to live with it since day one of our life.
Freedom of religion is good but it is up to me to make the right choice of whom I choose to worship or whom I choose to keep away of my life. There are millions of things to worship in the visible world. But the Masters are not visible. We must dress up with the invisible clothes to meet the invisible Leaders. It is a serious matter. We simply need to know their voice in many ways they appear to us. And based upon their goodness to us, we will decide that we have a Master.
Religion can be made man, but triggered by a higher power that is left to us to figure out who that power is. Then, we will have a good composite to draw from. Then, our fight and confusion may slow down. We must always remember in fighting for religious belief, we also take the stand for a master.
Crowley's law was, "Do what ye will, shall be the whole of the law."
Not Gardener's 'An if it harm none do what ye will'Which is opposite of Crowley's belief and way of life. Crowley was called The Beast...and whether he earned it or not He took pride in the epithaph. Crowley died in 1947...Gardner's book came out in 1954, after the Law against Witchcraft was repealed in England, after he had met Dorothy Clutterbuck in the New Forest and learned from her and her group about Witchcraft.
Crowley's magick was Ceremonial Magick, that is High Magick, it carries with it different traditions and rituals..it is mostly an off shoot of esoteric Christianity and ceremonial Eygptian Magick...believing in demons, angels and beings of evil. It is nothing like Wicca or any earth centered faith.
This is a sample of a Crowley invocation, a copy of Egyptian magickal invocation:
'so that every Spirit of the Firmament and of the Ether: Upon the Earth and under the Earth; on dry land and in the Water: of whirling Air; and of rushing Fire and every spell and scourge of God may be obedient to Me.'
The scourge of God he is talking about is the Christain god, not the God of our people. And we never demand for our Gods to be obedient to us. Our gods work with us, we do not treat them as servents, nor are we servents to them.
Crowly followed a mystery religion,OTO...but there are many mystery religions. There is a core that is in Paganism and the mystery religions, is it a surprise that those faiths that include those religions should have simularities? Does that mean that I a follower of one form of mystery religion should find it odd that I might have something in common with another? Did the mystery religion of Hecate take from those of Demeter?
Now if you want to go back to the ancient Mesopotamia, you will find much of what we practice. If you want to go to Babylonia you will see it, if you go to Ur, or even in the ancient Hebrew camps where the women would go into the hills on full moon nights and make offerings of moon Cakes and wine to the Queen of Heaven...who was Ishtar.
Just because those men of the early renewal of the esoteric religions know each other and that they all studied occult literature does not mean that what they found individually was hoccum.People interested in the same topic usually do cluster together. Those interested in birds might also be interested in seeds.
To equate Witchcraft with scientology shows your ignorance...like I said Study.
And other then that, who asked for your opinion on our beliefs?
You also forget about The Golden Bough written by Frazier in 1896, long before Gardner. I also have a copy of the Phycology of Witchcraft 1924, Charles Leland's Gospel of Witches 1899 or Apuleius's Golden Ass written pre 158/9 AD, this is the only book of Roman-Greco times that has survived intact. It's like saying that Shamans did not exist, the Pristesses and Priests in the temples did not exist... there is not a thing in Wicca that was "created" whole cloth by modern man, in cluding it's name. From the Athame, wand, cup and Pentacle to herbs, divination, Circles and rites they have all been from the beginning of time...transitioning and migrating but there.
Modern day Wicca is usually credited to Gardner and Alexander, but some aspects of Goddess worship, that are still used today in either belief or ritual (or both), in one form or another can be found in traditions and cultures going back about at least 30,000 years or so, if not even older. The Masons and Rosecrutians of old, among others, lend some of their practices to those who influenced Gardner and Crowley himself.
Scientology was most definitely created out of whole cloth, all at once. Wicca and paganism is created more like a patchwork quilt, using much older pieces to create something workable in modern times. Many Wiccans today are working on removing the modern from the older parts to make something as close to the older roots as possible that can still be used today.
Even Abrahamic traditions have some mystery traditions buried within them too if you look hard enough.
Like Wicca and Paganism itself, the history is not exactly linear since there were a lot of folks out to destroy paganism for one purpose or another. Much information has been lost. A lot of what we do know about some of the pagans of the past come out of writings of people who painted them in very suspicious terms, without a real clear understanding of who they were and what they actually believed.
To assume that all Wiccans follow Gardner or Crowley is the same as assuming that all Christians follow exactly what the pope/Church tells them to. Or to assume that all Protestants are Lutherans.
Wicca is a fabrication of Gerald Gardner, a disciple of Aleister Crowley. It is a watered down version of Crowley's complex system of ceremonial magick.
Why do you people continue to believe this hoax that
doesn't have pedigree any more ancient than Scientology?
The problem is that by the time Starhawk replies, when there is a question she can reply to, there is a short time for comments on her page...but her page is usually one of the most popular.
To Paganplace: When I say man basically has not changed I am not talking about his toys or his knowledge of how things work, I am talking about how he acts, still trying to lord it over his fellow man, killing and terrorizing if need be. Take a look at the world is it really any different than it was in the past. Our weapons may be more sophisticated and our cruelty on a more massive scale but is it any different really. What Jesus taught and what most of the people say that He taught is worlds apart. A lot of what people that call themselves christians say is such pure hatred, it is not even close to what the bible actually means. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum
I am a proud mama...Silv is a very special person with much to give. Can you tell I am beaming with pride?? She is also my Maiden and a mother hen as far as I am concerned. lol.
PP..Welcome and you too Lep...and as for the rest of you..come to Covenspace...a new poll I have up...beware blatent promotion-
------------
Should Pagans be involved in Politics?
Pagans are above all that! ohhh Look at that fairy!!!
I hug trees but to hell with Global warming. I might be discriminated against.
I am citizen and Pagan and I care what happens in my name.
----------------
also you will have the opprotunity to have all kinds of info from all over.
FYI-
Silv is going to be given her second degree in the Fall. Get ready to title her Lady. LOL...
I wish we had a forum where we could continue our discussions...
Blessings to all...
I invite you all to Covenspace...a place for pagans like My Space. You Pagan friendly non pagans are welcome to my page and group. But remember it is in a pagan site.
My page-Witches Hat Rack
www.gazelle.covenspace.com
my group-Voices on the Path
www.vox.covenspace.com
"Interesting angle on the Immaculate Conception. I like that a lot better than what I was taught as a child, which was that Mary was told that she was going to have a baby, no ifs, ands, or buts."
I think that's where we see this idea of "Submit by free will or be damned," which simply redefines coercion as not-coercion.
Too often this is simply used to deny that coercion is happening, while simultaneously blaming the victims for it by claiming it was their 'free will' not to have submitted already.
Which can lead to a sort of 'Stockholm Syndrome' which is part of our 'pack instincts' out of control because we've denied it. Maybe turning them into more like *herd* instincts, as these metaphors go.
Really, we're creatures of an interplay of dominance, submission, *and* cooperation: there's a tendency in some schools of thought to end up valuing only the 'dominant male' parts of our experience and consider the other parts of us as 'unworthy' parts which must be made to shut up to appease and obey an 'unquestionable' alpha-male-king-figure... and all people who want power over others have had to do is *identify* themselves with that figure and use conditioned shame as a bludgeon to call any uppity betas or omegas/scapegoats
'Choosing to be unworthy.'
There are certainly other ways to see the world, ...even those myths.
Thank you Starhawk, you put that very well. This question is the same as asking, which came first the chicken or the egg? … the responses aren’t always as cut and dried as people would like.
Terra, thank you as well. It feels good seeing you … it’s nice to know I’m not the only one you … ummmm … never mind.
Having read through the posts here I have something I would like to add. This is a devotional I wrote and now use daily; it is how I feel. Speaking for myself, my connection goes beyond the everyday. It is a deep and wonderful web that connects me to everything and everyone regardless of where or who. With that thought in mind I find it difficult not to honor all life no matter what boundaries or labels society puts on them.
For those of you who have no wish to understand please feel free to pass over this contribution, for those who are genuinely seeking information to have a better idea of where some of us are coming from please read on, I hope this helps…
I Honor Thee
As I rose in the morning
Greeting each new day
I honor Thee
With each bit of nourishment
And each breath I take
I honor Thee
With each thought
And every deed
I honor Thee
As I accomplish each
Task and goal
I honor Thee
With each step
Along my life’s path
I honor Thee
With my body
Mind and spirit
I honor Thee
With all I am
Say and do
I honor Thee
Recognizing You
In every living thing
I honor Thee
Not sure exactly what you're getting at, there, Thomas.
Yes, we *have* changed very much, actually, in many ways. Some things do change: personally, I see the worship of laws and plans and writing and Kings as people worshiping in the form of what was *high tech* at the time.
Certainly our *conceptions* of spiritual experience can change, and evolve, and that's scary to some.
Especially if they telescope history *and* change through a book, which they're *taught* to believe describes how people are *now and forever* in the *first place.*
You can't really expect to see things any other way if that's the perception you're taught is 'adherence to the plan' in the first place.
Certainly, I think I speak for most Pagans when I say we aren't afraid of our hearts and minds, I think we're tired of *people* judging them based on our religious affiliations.
Certainly, we think that saying something which frankly *does* come off egomaniac *isn't* egomaniac just because someone *says it isn't because it 'must be the plan'* doesn't make sense.
I mean, what are you supposed to say to folks who do that, except, maybe, "Hey, Emperor. Nice suit."
We observe in the universe, that *change *is* a constant, as well as evolution: "She changes everything She touches, and everything She touches changes."
It's one thing to have a sense of continuity, but denying that 'change' *is* 'the plan' just leaves people baffled when stuff falls down or stops working. :)
You could say that if something isn't going to change right now, it needs no protection of kid gloves from us, and if it is, heh, well, just try and stop it. :)
Which, of course, puts the responsibility for being aware and choosing what we do back on us, where it always was.
As for saying, 'Don't question the plan, the plan is incomprehensible except for where it says cause my idea of the plan says don't question my idea of the plan,' well, that just doesn't make a lot of sense to us.
Gods and their children walking among humans, that's not something we consider novel or unique. , especially in terms of making any particular demands, particularly 'Obey cause I said so,' which is what that usually comes down to, lately.
We'd say that "God," (we like to say Goddess) *is* a woman, *is* a man, ...in fact, several of them. All of them. "God" is a tree, a bunch of dirt, a crop a stag of seven tines, perhaps, ...As well as a world, a belt of stars, ...a living universe, a living multiverse, the value pi, a banana cream pie, a '63 Chevy, ...us. :)
Everything. One might say it's not the 'divinity' of your Christ that's the problem, it's *denying the divinity* of *everything else* that's so often cut us off from our birthrights as living spiritual beings, and the treasures of our many cultures.
Turning the world into *anti-divinity.*
By enshrining *jealousy,* perhaps.
Seek that, and, yeah, that's what you'll find. I'm not sure what that's supposed to say about 'plans,' but we don't think such an idea of a 'plan' is much of an excuse or rationale for anything.
Particularly being patronizing about what you think *your* mind has made. Next thing you know, you're starting to label *people* as *defying the very simple plan,* just for living or being different.
Certainly leads to that hubris of thinking, "I know the simple plan, and it means everyone should do and believe the same things."
Thomas Baum:
"Also God is not a man or a woman but God Incarnate was a man and He asked permission from a Lady to become a man, God does not violate our free will."
Interesting angle on the Immaculate Conception. I like that a lot better than what I was taught as a child, which was that Mary was told that she was going to have a baby, no ifs, ands, or buts.
Isn't it something that the sheer simplicity of God's Plan is so baffling to us that we sometimes refuse to even think that it could be true. We do have free will and I have said yes to God. With all this head knowledge that we have acquired over the years has man basically changed very much? Now we worship ourselves, our brains and all the things that we make. God does not look at your religious affiliation or lack thereof He is a searcher of hearts and minds. He is not an egomaniac but Pure Love and His Plan is for all of His children. Also God is not a man or a woman but God Incarnate was a man and He asked permission from a Lady to become a man, God does not violate our free will. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum
And, well, Anonymous, on a 'jealous God', I guess that can be what you get when you start calling *a* God "God." So happens the concept occurred in Egypt before, but I really don't know what a Pagan ought to say about that, except we pretty studiously avoid that kind of idea of an absolutely-powerful jealous God.
I think we've seen where that can get you.
To wit, you get *jealous and fearful religions.*
I think, Terra, that's one reason I'm careful about saying, 'All Gods/Goddesses are One God/Goddess' too much. It's one of those things that out of context, can be as divisive as unifying: could lead to lazy thinking and maybe even ideas of 'My particular God *is* God.' ...or people thinking you're saying that.
At least while people tend to like shortcuts. :)
Maybe that's supposed to be experienced as Mystery. :) ;
Certainly, I think it's easier to learn more *human* lessons from more approachable Gods, and understand that our view of the Divine is necessarily-limited. It's one danger, too, of putting too many words out there: tell someone, and they'll think they know. :)
It is hard explaining us. It is so easy to leave out something neccessary for other's understanding.
MY tradition is soft Polytheism also. AS they say All Goddesses are One Goddess and all Gods are one God. Co-joined they are the Initiator.
I have called on Kali Ma... as well as Quan Yin, and the Morrigan, as well as my own Pantheon...all parts of the whole.The Descent of the Goddess is what our particular philosophy is based on. There is the ancient Descent from Ishtar, but we identify more with the Strega one. The Descent can be found all over the world in one form or another.
Anonymous,
In my way of seeing things...you can not create what you do not have in you. You can not create hate without knowing hate...you can not create love without knowing love. It's like making a cake, you can not make one without having the ingredients. Even the Gods have to follow the laws of the universe, they made them, they are them... lol.
Why do you say "cursed with human emotion"? You can not have wisdom without emotion. Research has been done on which is better...what leads to better choices, logic alone or with emotion? Come to find out that better choices were made when people listened to their emotions as well as logic...that is saying when they listened to their whole being...not just to mind. See it as if you were going to touch something hot that would burn you. Do you feel the heat and draw your hand back, or do you wait til you get burned to make sure it is hot?
The problem is not emotion, it is not thinking as well as feeling.
Of course all Gods are also reflections of those who honor them. As also we are reflections of the Gods we honor. It is symbiosis.
But then I am a Witch, emotion is natural and how I work. It is integrated with my logic.
Everyting has a meaning, a use. Nothing stands alone...everything is dependent on everything else.
I find it revealing that when God is refered to in the Bible he pocesses peculiarly human emotions. He is sometimes angry,vengeful, jealous etc... If God is truely all knowing why would he-it react to something that he could forsee? .One can only be angry, vengeful, jealous when one has no control over a situation and certainly not one where the outcome is already known. It just seems odd that believers cannot recognize that if there were truely a god he would not be cursed with human emotions. God has the imprint of man's handywork and all that it entails all over him.
WOW. I think I'm going to have to print a lot of this thread. So many things I wasn't aware of. What I really love about this journey is the more I find out, the less I really do know. It makes it all exciting and new again.
*and *wow,* there's a lot more posts that came up when I was writing that than I had thought. :)
Anyway, that's me trying to take a half-step out of my own worldview and describe the big picture I tend to see: (wow, that can be hard. :) ) Necessarily incomplete, but I hope a little informative.
I think the song's more eloquent. :) Not to mention the Dance. :)
My Pagan friends, it gives me such pleasure when you say: "The universe is alive and somehow conscious."
That is so true. We ECLATi-ONs believe the same thing and we know that we are part of that universal consciousness. Therefore, we can never die. Our PHOTONS (light source energy) will simple merge with the greater power out there. I don't really know what happens to the ECLATi-OFFs, but I think maybe they get sucked up into a black hole. :o)
Well-said, again, Terra. :)
She's speaking for Wicca, mostly, Anonymous. I've got a tendency to speak in at least 'popular Wicca' terms, myself, cause that's where I first learned it, but it's my observation that there *are* in fact community standards: strong ones, at that.
Wicca's an influential subset of Paganism, which does have shared values and beliefs at least as common as those of other religions, so... a lot of your questions aren't considered the most relevant ones to begin with.
Who are you to insist that something must be "BS without basis" because our beliefs don't incorporate so much *advertising?* :)
We may have a stab or two at *describing* ourselves, but *defining* isn't seen as such a priority cause we aren't on some mission to tell the rest of the world how to believe or practice, anyway. Never mind limit ourselves in those kinds of ways. A certain amount of fractiousness helps protect us from the *dogmatism* that we're in general trying to avoid. :)
We may revere the Earth as sacred, but generally won't be found saying, 'Don't disrespect the Earth because it'll piss off the Goddess,' except maybe as a metaphor for "Umm, if you mess up the biosphere, it'll be messed-up. You won't like that."
Most modern Pagans believe in a *diversity of manifestations of the Divine,* as we see in the Gods of our ancestors and/or in the living universe itself.
That... It's existentially OK to pick (or be picked by) some and for others to pick (or be picked by) some others? Wow. :)
Our shared ethics are something more organic than what you'd call 'standards of orthodoxy or orthopraxy.' We may *embrace* practices, from elaborate traditions to simple private devotionals to anything in between.
They grow out of certain basic observations, which are similar to (and often called) 'Karma.'
Here's my attempt to paint a broad picture of modern Pagan belief:
a) The universe is alive and in some way conscious, and we're part of it. Often related to through myth and story and celebration: quite central is often the figure of the Goddess of Many Names, for whom the Charge is said to speak when it says, 'All acts of love and pleasure are My rituals:' (Note it doesn't say 'love *or* pleasure.' People tend to take that wrong.) The Wiccan Rede, adhered to by 'most' Pagans in one form or another, I would say, says, "If it harms none, do what you will."
This is about freedom *as well as* responsibility: in fact, the responsibility *of* freedom and the freedom *of* responsibility. What constitutes harm,(or greater or lesser harm) is generally open to rational discussion, at least till someone comes along and says something we find silly like "Disobeying *my* book is harmful because my book says it is, somehow," or "Smacking you isn't harmful cause I say it's good!"
In a sense, this is an authority and responsibility we believe the Gods put on *us,* or, is just a property of our existence, cause:
b) What you do comes back to you: not only that, it tends to *snowball:* (we call this the Rule of Three, or Threefold Return:) therefore we should be aware, responsible, and of good will when we act. A lot of folks think the factor of three is arbitrary: I think there's particular meaning and utility in it. We like threes, anyway.
c) The progress of time tends to be viewed as cyclical: not linear and not dependent upon an idea that the world (and the soul) has a defined beginning and end: observances are cyclical and seasonal, ...something called the Wheel of The Year, often but not always manifested in a view of people themselves being among a reincarnating, or at least regenerating world: the idea is that the soul goes through many forms and changes. This doesn't come with the connotations of the cycle being a thing essentially to be escaped as suffering, (at least not right now,) or anything like the idea of the personality necessarily surviving death intact, say.
Two major schools of thought within Paganism can be: 'Hard polytheism' (seeing the Gods as distinct and separate personalities: this is very common among those who choose to try and recreate specific ancestral traditions, (*lots* of these sort of branch off or subdivide within the community, or even have split off, theologically, to focus on their own thing:) most particularly the Nordic ones that picture a more permanent sort of afterlife, and the world in a much longer cycle of rebirth, one might say. A lot of these folks prefer to call themselves Heathens, which is sort of a separate thing, (they can justifiably call themselves a religion all their own, even if many turn up for the 'family reunions.' :) ) but there's 'hard polytheism' in general Paganism, too. There's certainly a common dynamic of learning from cultures of the past, from culture and myth, and applying it in the present.
'Soft polytheism' often incorporates the idea that all the Gods, like people, may be distinct in some ways, and part of a greater whole, themselves: appearing to us in different ways for whatever reason. This often connects with The Great Goddess (or or *as* a union of the God and Goddess) being the biggest being in, indeed, the entirety of the universe, if not multiverse. :) '
You could call me a 'soft polytheist,' myself.
Anyway, definitions, by definition, tend to divide, ...there's also a diverse unity about the movement that the community values of itself... and that, ironically, is one thing that you could say, really *defines* us, compared to a lot of the rest of the world.
The world is our greatest teacher, you might say, ...so we tend to find claims of exclusive revelation rather silly: it's rather like, if someone comes up and says, 'You're going to Hell!' the reaction may in fact be, "I'm sorry you built a world where that happens to people."
I think we can see the results of behaving like that.
As for this:
"my question was - how do we know it just isn't a picture of any pregnant woman and a man wearing a stag head, instead of religious?"
When She danced on the waters and the wind was Her horn
The Lady laughed and everything was born
And when She lit the sun and the light gave Him birth
The Lord of the Dance first appeared on the earth
(chorus) "Dance dance, wherever you may be
For I am the Lord of the Dance," cried he
"And I'll live in you if you live in me
And I'll lead you all in the dance," cried he.
I dance in the circle when the flames leap up high
I dance in the fire and I never ever die
I dance in the waves of the bright summer sea
For I am the Lord of the Wave's mystery
(chorus)
I sleep inthe kernel and I dance in the rain
I dance in the wind and through the waving grain
And when you cut me down I care nothing for the pain
For in spring I am Lord of the Dance once again
(chorus)
I dance at the feasts and stories I do tell
I dance and I sing that everyong be well
And when the dancings over do no think I am gone
For to live is to dance so I dance on and on
(chorus)
The horn of the Lady casts its song across the plain
The birds took the notes and gave them back again
Till the sound of Her music was song in the sky
And to that song there is one reply
(chorus)
The moon in Her phases and the tides of the sea
The motion of the earth and the seasons that will be
Are the rhythm of the dancing and our promise through the years
The dance goes on through our joys and tears
(chorus)
They danced in the darkness and they danced in the night
They danced on the earth and everything was bright
They danced out the darkness and they danced out the dawn
The day of the dancing still goes on and on...
Cernunnos has been worshipped from the earliest times..
There are numerous archeological and literary references to a horned god / demigod / hero / beast-man found throughout the European territories. They include the cave painting of an antlered figure called “the Sorcerer” in the Trois Freres cave in Ariege, France; the petrogliphs found at Val Camonica, Lombardy, Italy; the silver-plated Gundestrup Cauldron found in Denmark; the Germanic legend about the wild man of the woods; the statues of a horned man discovered with Roman artifacts in France; British coins bearing his image; and the Welsh legends of Gwyn ap Nudd and the Boucca. A carving of an antlered man is still visible on a Neolithic dolmen in Ireland. A bronze amulet with the head of a moose and body of a man was found in Russia. A horned figure was discovered in a Roman fortress in Durham, Northumberland in England, believed to be Celtic and created sometime between the 4th and 6th centuries. All of these images pre-date the Christian legend of Satan as a horned anti-deity.
Other artifacts bear evidence of our ancestors’ reverence for the stag or beast-man figure. Although the famed Abbots Bromley Horn Dance is “only” 950 to 1, 200 years old, an excavation of a Mesolithic settlement in Star Carr, Yorkshire, England was discovered to contain hollowed stag skulls, with antlers intact. These skulls had holes drilled in them to contain thin rawhide straps, to make them wearable as a headdress. There are carvings of a horned or antlered male figure in several churches in western Europe dating from the twelfth to the fifteenth centuries. An image of a man with curling ram’s horns was discovered in the basement of Notre Dame Cathedral. A wooden mask with bull’s horns, familiarly called the “’Ooser” was used in ritual folkplays and as a figure of punishment for spouse-abusers in Dorset up to the late 1800s. Some archeologists believe that the antlered images represent a hunting deity, while the horned men were depicted after the invention of agriculture and the domestication of animals.
The archetype of the Horned God seems to be quite universal. East India has a legendary Lord of the Beasts called Pashupati or Rhudra who looks amazingly similar to the European deity. In Bhutan and Mexico, stag dancers enact a symbolic ritual sacrifice. A deer Kachina is revered by the Navajo. Found in a Viking hoard was a golden statue of a man with deer’s hooves. The Lapp people have a forest god called Radien Kiedde, pictured as a man with reindeer antlers. There is even a wooden mask of an antlered man from a Native American culture discovered in Oklahoma. If Pan, the Faunus and Dionysus are included, the horned or antlered beast-man can be said to be a worldwide phenomenon.
The word “Cernunnos” likely came from the Roman invasions of the Gaulish lands. This inscription exists on only one written source, the fresco of a man with ram’s horns found under Notre Dame in Paris. There are similar spellings of the name in other locations, including one in Greek, which may refer to the same entity. In Latin, Cernunnos simply means “horned one”. In one Romano-Gaulish carving, a man with horns is standing beside the Roman gods Mercury and Zeus. Since these figures are deified, it’s quite probable that the horned man is also considered to be a god. The more recent English name Herne may derive from the Latin “Corn”, or old French “Cern”, meaning horned. The word “Cornucopia” means “Horn of Plenty”. A ceremony called the “Kirn Supper” was held during the Harvest Home ritual, which involved harvesting grain and baking and eating bread. The Welsh version of Santa Claus is “Sion Cern”. Cerne Abbas is home to the famous chalk carving of the priappic giant above the Cerne River. The original name for Cornwall is Kernow, both of which may refer to a horn. There is a Herne Hill in London and a Herne Bay in southern England. In fact, in Britain alone, there are over sixty references to Herne in place-names, most believed to be pre-Christian. Many people in the U.K. bear the surname Hearn, Herne, O’Hern, Trehern, Hernden, Hobson, Hod or Hood.
The horned man, man-deer, man-horse or beast-man is a figure of lore and legend as well. St. Patrick is said to have transformed himself and his companions into deer to hide from his enemies. In one King Arthur tale, Merlin rode a stag into the middle of a wedding celebration. Perhaps these stories originate from an older pre-Christian ritual or legend. The Woodwose, or wild man of the woods, was a popular figure on the coat-of-arms of Norman nobility and in churches found in the British Isles and on the continent. He is sometimes depicted as half-man, half-beast. Some speculate that the name of the horned Dorset ’Ooser mask came from “Grand Wooser”, or woodwose. The beloved tales of Robin Hood include a fight with Guy of Gisborne, a man wearing a whole horse-hide as a hooded cloak. Saint Cornelly, the patron of wild animals, is sometimes shown wearing antlers, and may be a Christianization of Herne or Cernunnos. In recent times, the metaphor of a man wearing stag’s horns meant that his wife had been unfaithful, perhaps an allusion to an earlier fertility ritual. Of course, we all know the colloquial meaning of the word “horny”.
Anthropologists speculate that pre-Christian shamans wore antlers and animal hides in a ceremony to imitate hunting, thereby attracting deer to their tribal lands. Some believe that these rites were performed as a spirit journey, perhaps to commune with a totem. The original Herne may have represented this concept. Up until the 1920s, Siberian shamans practiced similar rituals, and photographs were taken of them wearing antlered hoods. One of the paintings in the Lascaux cavern in France is of an entity with a bison head and human feet, who appears to be carrying a short hunting bow. He was discovered in 1940. A similar image was etched on a bone found in 1928 in the Pinhole Cave in the Creswell Crags of Derbyshire, England. And let’s not forget the famous “Sorcerer” of Les Trois Freres. These images strongly resemble the masked figure of the stag, bull or horse in many English mummers’ plays and hoodening rituals. These folk customs, documented from the Medieval period onward, could not possibly have used the cave art for inspiration, as the prehistoric carvings and paintings were not re-discovered until much later. These customs may also suggest an image seen while in a trance state.
So, was Herne / Cernunnos the original “God of the Witches”? We have no way of knowing for certain. The Horned Lord appears often enough in folklore, artwork, legend, ritual dances, place names, surnames and artifacts to believe that he was and is revered by many civilizations. He often appears as a mystical figure related to hunting and death. He was also a character of buffoonery, sexuality and fun, as portrayed by the Greek god Pan, the Basque Basa-jaun and the Roman faun or satyr.
I personally believe that hoodening rites and the ritual use of animal skins, skulls, horns or antlers are the “missing link” which connects pre-Christian ceremonies to the modern Pagan worship of the Horned God. Perhaps seekers might try making an excursion to the woodlands to invoke Cernunnos for themselves!
The Rede is confusing if you do not know what it is saying. It's like a different language, and can be misunderstood. If you know some of the ways of Wicca you can practice it more fully with the Rede.
It really is more complicated then it seems.
As in the 2nd Couplet-
ye must live and let live, fairly take and fairly give
The second couplet of the Rede teaches: " ye must live and let live, fairly take and fairly give." In it's simplicity, this lesson stresses the value and sanctity of all life, the importance of the abstinance fom theft and for generosity and compassion.
In human society, we claim to have made life and the preservation of that life our top priority. Our laws reflect this mentality, but in a hypocritical manner. We hold human life as sacred, but all other life, even the Earth herself is expendable. This is a gross philosophical imbalance, and one that has created suffering throughout time.
In the world's sacred and so-called revealed sciptures, we find that humanity was given the gift of life by the very Gods, and because of this belief humanity has grown arrogant. We have begun to feel supreme on Earth, as if human life were in some way divine and sacred, and more holy than other forms of life. This is simply not true. While it is true that the Gods did give to us the gift of life, it was also these same Gods that fashioned the material world and gave life to the plants, and animals as well. There is a simple formula to this: Since the Gods created humanity, then human life is sacred and divine, but so too is all life, since the Gods created all that exists! We must keep this in mind while thinking about the second cuplet of the Wiccan Rede.
Many Human Rights activists advocate an ideal called absolute freedom, yet the very concept of absolute freedom is a myth. It should not and can not exist...we can not hinder another's freedom. When you take the mind set of having absolute freedom in your life, you create a vaccume else where...we can not increase the standard of our lives at the expence of others. In many third world nations, an entire nation is kept in povertywhile working as slaves to provide luxuries for the world's wealthy nations.
A better philosophy would be to provide "restrained freeom", this is a compassionate idea. Each individual is responcible to evaluate the amount of freedom that is necessary for an acceptable standard of living. We must not be gluttons and over use our abilities and wasteing what we have, and not careing for others. We must restrain our freedoms to the point where we can enjoy our lives while not makeing others pay the price.
As the Wiccan Rede states so clearly, "ye must live and let live." We should grant the same standard of life, to all life, and cease the theft of resourses from throughtout our dark past of raising our standard of liveing through the slavery and pain of others.
The second part of this teaching is eternalized in the phrase " fairly take and fairly give." When one steals from the universe, it is the same as stealing from one's own mother. This statement has been true throughout human time...Contemplate this deep meaning. At the moment there is a very good example: originally there were eight million square miles of tropical rain forest encirclling the Earth. Due to humanity's greed more then half have been burned, bulldozed and destroyed. Right now there is only about three and a half million square miles left. When you stop and think that the tropical rian forest provides between twenty five to fourty percent of all pharma products, we then begin to understand what a grand scale our ignorance has reached. This does not scratch the surface of the grand injustice that we do to other members of the rain forests, such as the animals and native humans.
As Wiccans. we should contemplate daily on how we can increase our mindfulness of our compassion and generosity, so that not only our life is enriched but all other life as well.
----------------
This is from a lesson I have for my students on the second stanza of the Rede. Each stanza means more then you read. That is how Wicca and most Pagan religions are...there is always something below the surface.
Blessed Be!
terra
I think that the picture that he's referring to is a common one of the Goddess as a pregnant woman, and the Horned God. Why the Goddess is often pictured as a pregnant woman is that She is the Mother of all things. She's pregnant with the Earth, the animals, plants, insects, humans, rocks, etc. She IS the Earth.
The guy with the Horns is the Horned God - NOT Satan! The Horned God is the Goddess's son, lover, and protector. He fertilizes the Earth in order for things to grow. The Celtic (Irish/Scottish, etc.) version is often portrayed with stag horns because the stag was sacred to the Celts. However, the God has many names and forms - Osiris, Horus, Zeus, John Barleycorn, even Jehovah and Jesus. Yes, Jesus was one of many Middle-Eastern dying and resurrected Gods. Most Pagans don't have a problem with Jesus, but find many of His followers to be annoying.
Discovering that one is a Pagan (I hesitate to use the word "conversion") is the shift in thinking required from God being a separate entity and God being a part of everything - the shift from monotheism to panentheism. It has been said that Pagans are both pantheists - believing in multiple Gods - and panentheists - believing that God is in everything. It's the difference between "This tree was made by God" and "This tree is a part of God." Yes, we worship the Creator and the Creation, because they are one in the same.
Gaea, or Mother Earth, was the great goddess of the early Greeks. She represented the Earth and was worshipped as the universal mother. In Greek mythology, she created the Universe and gave birth to both the first race of gods (the Titans) and the first humans.
In the creation story of the ancient Greeks, Chaos came before everything else. Chaos was made of Void, Mass, and Darkness in confusion. Then Earth, in the form of Gaea, came into existence. From Mother Earth sprang the starry heavens, in the form of the sky god Uranus. From Gaea also came the mountains, plains, seas and rivers that make up the Earth as we know it today.
Gaea, or Mother Earth, was the oldest of the gods of the early Greeks. She was known as the supreme goddess by humans and gods alike. She presided over marriages and oaths and was honored as a prophetess.
----------
She is Terra Mater, Earth Mother...Mother of Demeter...Goddess of the surface of the Earth, Goddess of Plenty...and grandmother to Kore-Persephone, the Goddess of Spring and the Underworld.
-----------The symbol of Gaea being pregnant is that she gives birth to all there is. From Her we come to Her we shall return. She is Great Mother...Magna Mater.
"The Horned One" is a Celtic god of fertility, life, animals, wealth, and the underworld. He was worshipped all over Gaul, and his cult spread into Britain as well. Cernunnos is depicted with the antlers of a stag, sometimes carries a purse filled with coin. The Horned God is born at the winter solstice, marries the goddess at Beltane, and dies at the summer solstice. He alternates with the goddess of the moon in ruling over life and death, continuing the cycle of death, rebirth and reincarnation.
Paleolithic cave paintings found in France that depict a stag standing upright or a man dressed in stag costume seem to indicate that Cernunnos' origins date to those times. Romans sometimes portrayed him with three cranes flying above his head. Known to the Druids as Hu Gadarn. God of the underworld and astral planes. The consort of the great goddess. He was often depicted holding a bag of money, or accompanied by a ram-headed serpent and a stag. Most notably is the famous Gundestrup cauldron discovered in Denmark.
All Comments (95)
i think where the fault lies in not your apprehension of "mindless creation" but of your underlying believe that all was created from mind.
I cant stand to use the word God,
for it represents something of a far greater nature, of course mind, compassion, hatred, love
are in its very nature because everything and nothing are contained within it...
Attempts to humanize such phenomenon, with phrases like "intelligent design" i find demeaning
for those of religious faith the fact that you are arguing about it shows the very limited understanding you have of it....
From the Scientist to the Preacher who would approach that which is beyond intellect through
study of external phenomenon alone, such as a Holy book...
you will only confuse yourself...and be further from the truth
I have no miracle key, i have no ploy or marketing gimmicks, i dont even write this with a name....so you have an idea of what i want in return for this pearl i give you...not even recognition
all i have is words,
the truth of it? it must be experianced.
and the only way to experiance it is to look inside, that which is the most intimate with all
likewise resides in the most intimate recesses of your very own being...
you must search for it internally because experiance by its very nature, is dependant on phenomenonal response within
not without
It is not withought mention that the great enlightened beings of our history were also known for meditating voraciously This includes, Jesus Christ, The Prophet Mohammad, The Buddah to name a few
(the halo around the heads of holy individuals characterized by the color gold, is also well known in the worlds most ancient eastern philosophies in its regard to the crown chakra (energy vortice of the highest vibratory rate located in the crown of the head) which activates upon awakening in the distinct goldend color..at which time the being is enlightened and is gifted with what appears to be supernatural abilities
i was once asked a question "well with supernatural abilities why didnt they take over the world"
These entities never argued, or tryd to pursuade through force, but helped fellow man ceaslesly while teaching.
(it is also worthy of note that some of the first recorded enlightened beings Hanuman being amonsgt them, were not human beings but "ape like men"
if you didnt get a chill up your spine, when the phrase "evolution" popped into your head re read it
imagine that...a relatively "stupid" neanderthal realized it, but "intelligent" human beings still have trouble? wait a second here...
if not the intellect then what? oh no? the hair maybe?
The answer is self evident. They would have never reached such a perfect level of awareness had they had the conscious baggage of accumulated wrong actions against fellow men...
another words, these were plain old good folks.
intelligence is limitation of the human mind..
it is measurable
it is far more tangible
which by default makes it appear easier to comprehend
that which is beyond description...
to give you an idea of the scope of what the limited intellect is faced with....
The current theory of the universe as per steve hawkster is "an infinite number of big bangs" (wow almost sounds like macro level karma)
The moment of impact, the very precise moment of the transformation of energy and vast redirection of forces....or very simply, the very moment of change from one phenomenon to another
is known affectionately as the Singularity (no doubt an allusion to the percieved rare nature of such phenomenon)
It is said at this point of singularity, this moment of exact change in phenomenon, the laws of physics and mathematics completely breakdown,
and the descriptive capacity of language utterly and literrally breaks down...(all traits of the intellect mind you)
Science attempted pure objective intellect in its varied forms to bring to light the nature of the moment. Its various tools of quantum physics and mathematics, the tool of language...
you see many would see that as our intellect is limited, in that percievably in the future we will have developed the knowledge to again approach the mountain
you see it wasnt a matter of limitation, it was a matter the utterly useless ability of the purely intellectual endeavors in approaching something of such all encompassing nature..
(notice-im not describing sciences approach to God, oh no, im only talking about the futility in the Singularity, remember that)
now say cheese and smile cause this ones about to make your eyes squint...
from quanta to photons, protons to atoms, from atoms to elements, from elements to substance, through tissue, through organ, through body, through our very own mother earth and her sun
to the galaxy, the clusters and to the superclusters ad infinitum...
at each and every moment, through conception throught aging to death,
from the arising from each thought in your mind, to the seasonal changes on earth to the formation of super duper clusters to the big bang and beyond
each is in a CONSTANT state of transision...
they may appear relatively solid to the untrained mind (not the eye)but each is in the process of arising, being, and ceasing...
So each and every moment if you were to freeze frame (which is impossible) not just one object, but every known and knowable phenomenon that we are aware of and that which we are not
is in a state of changing form. All ways. All the time. Right now.
and right now
thus each is likewise the very same Singularity
that wich is attributed (only) to the big bang.
read it again if you feel the need, let it sink.
if your eyes are not open or you are thinking of a counter argument, you didnt comprehend... read it again if you need...
yes friend what im saying is that everything at from thoughts to washing machines represent, at their very foundation a Singularity...
it just so happens to Giant Stones in space forced us to attempt to understand the same phenomenon at a point many see as extra ordinary
when in fact it is very very all encompasingly ordinary...
that freeze frame of impossiblity that no reasoning approach can grasp, was grasped fully, by good biengs....
and what they saw drove them each to literrally stop theyre lives and live out, and suffer for the sole hope that they could bring it to the eyes of other biengs
so they could feel the happiness and the joy of it
so that they may know that there is a very valid purpose to life, and there is no reason for strife or suffering...
Perhaps these human beings actions put the experiance of the constantly happening singularity which is reality into perspective...
i only recieved a fleeting kiss of this ultimate true nature, and now look what im doin? im 26 years old, this is not what i do! hahah
when i saw it late at night meditating under my neighbors tree (martial arts related at the time)
i thought i was dead because i felt so damn good and joyful, when i pinched myself i realized i wasnt then said oh no! im not supposed to figure it out! at which point i tried to forget it while looking above to see if the tree was gonna fall on me. (no folks, no previous episodes of mental abberations, on the contray i was the rock that others came to and clung to for support all my life)
But each negative possible outcome i would imagine, disappeared immidiately upon rising..
i could see negative thoughts of bills, cheating girls literrally get sucked away replaced by joy
i went home with a huge smile on my face, laid down and for fun thought negative thoughts just to watch them vanish as if in a vacuum..
i layd down and cried for the first time in 13 years and they were tears of the firt true happiness i could ever rem feeling. (not a cryer either folks)
Science has unwittingly discovered "scientific" proof of the truth and they dont even know it...
you will never find it on the outside.
it is impossible. if you argue it is futile because your are stating online simply that you are afraid to study and know yourself
as well you should be, for that is where the ony demons lay..
whatever you do and whoever you are, i hope you begin your personal journey, but whether you do or not i hope for nothing but eternal happiness for you bud, you deserve it.
later gents
November 28, 2007 4:01 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 28, 2007 16:01
Oh! How poignant! This is a concept I have tried to explain in regards to my choice of being pantheistic and your words have put it so simply, and yet so spot-on. Thank you! After reading The Earth Path, I must say you've become something of a guru to me, making me feel so much more passionate about what I believe and wanting to ACT, so many blessings to you, dear woman, for all that you do.
September 5, 2007 11:19 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on September 5, 2007 23:19
http://DrugsHome.com
September 5, 2007 1:40 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on September 5, 2007 13:40
I was re-reading this thread, and it is obvious that someone has taken out a lot of the posts attacking Paganism. I'm not sure how I feel about that--for one thing, it makes our replies to that person seem disjointed and makes the whole thread, when read from top to bottom, lack unity. I'm not sure whether it is a good thing to censor posts from mature threads. What do you all think?
August 12, 2007 11:23 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on August 12, 2007 11:23
frkp mvzht qzpali dqufcrt strmajg djnrh kbtswm
August 10, 2007 1:46 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on August 10, 2007 01:46
Religion.
I am sorry to reply to this event. Religion is not all music. Music or Poetry does affect our lives like religions do. Music is the creation of our brain and our imagination, but religions came to us in order to accept them. We do select our religious belief; a Higher Power calls us to it. Changing religion is neither from our own power. It is a matter of our heart and whom who call us to that transformation. We have no control over it till we decide to master our life and yet, we fall into something that remains mysterious to us. And we may talk millions of time, the mystery still remains and it may even guide us without our consent. We often say sorry after we realize our mistakes. But sometimes we never pay attention that is requested from us.
Many people go to a religious system not because they choose to, but because there was an event in their life that commanded them to it.
Any of us can be commanded today when the time is due. This involves changing religion or changing belief. We read and never come across the truth. The truth may not be mine to be truth. The truth is universal. We either find it or we do not find it.
If we are searching with our own power, we may never get it. Too many of us have the truth and they keep it secret for their own purpose. They do not share it with others who are confused everyday and are suffering searching for it.
One day, one must decide to question his truth by questioning his God or his god. It cannot be any secret that mind cannot cross to believe in something and to stop speculating on something else. That leads many to err.
The game in the world today is the fight over religious beliefs and systems. And, the cautious behavior is to not hurt any one. We need friends, we have a market that needs us and we need it, we do not want to shake the status quo of that market. It is either good or bad. When someone says something that seems evil to others, he has to pay such a heavy price even if what he says makes sense and it is true. He may never say it.
Out of thousands or millions of people who found something in life about their belief a few may attempt to share it. Otherwise, it remains a mystery for the rest of us. How many times we hear people say, “Leave me alone, I do not want to hear it.” They may be right and someone else is coming to confuse them by changing their mind, or they may be wrong, but they lost that opportunity to find what they want. I finally conclude that we are reader reading the same book but come up with a different conclusion. It hurts because we do not come up with the same result.
Some of us found the answer, they twisted it. They denied it, they choke it. If they were able to be honest with us, if they were able to have open mind to listen and to share and to spend sometimes to review their understanding once more on the things that they learned, they may change their philosophy and help many do the same. The training of every leader is to give something new to those who listen, it is to change their conception and force them to be better in what they have to offer. Our belief may go that far and it does. Except that we do not know how many who become better after their training and their reading.
If we have no other name to call it, we can simply say that all religions serve their purpose. It is either a temporary purpose or a long term purpose. It is a matter of destiny.
Where are you from, where are you going, this must be part of our mental focus and do not let any one confuse us when we know that we are on the way. We need to read the relative truths and bring from them the absolute truth. We do not have to speculate, we need to come up with something that makes sense and we will stand before the sense to see if it really makes that sense; if it is true; why we brag about it.
Religion is not science. If it was every one would be silent long time ago. It was not too long ago someone had to look up the sun and tells us the time, but he fails when the sky was cloudy. It was not too long ago when I touch my body and I said, I am hot, I have a fever, but it was not true. Science helps me to find the truth that was relative and becomes absolute. We cannot measure religion. However we can judge it in term of quality, strength, and power that it gives to those who believe in it. It is a force that triggers human being into something that they did not want to do.
To seek truth, we must empty our head of its fullness of reading about facts that are confusing. Does what I see is real? Why do they give it to me? What do I ask to see? What do I ask to know? What can I do by myself? What others gave to me, may I question it? Not all religions are man made and man does not really create any religion. Religion is about worship; spend some times with a Master, with a Higher Power. There is a communication that is vertical and supernatural that takes place when we adhere to its doctrine. It serves as a connection between the weak and the strong and the weak draws power from the strong and his belief becomes stronger till he makes himself one with his Master. It is more than just going to a place of worship and sit down to watch what others are doing. We must stop being observers to become worshipers. The Masters will not reveal their secret and their will to us till we make commitment of whom we choose to worship.
The funny thing to avoid is that there is not even a single baby in this world without a religion, not even an adult without religion. Staying everyday of the week is a silent form of worship. A master is watching our behavior and he chooses us if we do not choose him and he makes us live for him by giving us thoughts, imagination, acceptation or rejection. We either accept one or reject another one. This is the purpose of religions. It is not simply about our personal choice. Since the beginning of time, the choice to worship has been established and our forefathers had to choose from Masters.
Now it is up to us to figure out what is taking place in this world, what is this crazy idea we must fight and someone else must leave us along? We become enemies of each other and we have troubles, we come together to comfort one another and very soon, the same old thing reappears? What sense does it make? We have a cold war in us because we do not know what it is real and what is wrong and again, we must forgive because no one really enters into this battle in his own name within his own power.
We are triggered by forces who call us to goodness and by forces who call us to pain and to suffering. It is part of religion. Either we like it, either we do not like it, we begin to live with it since day one of our life.
Freedom of religion is good but it is up to me to make the right choice of whom I choose to worship or whom I choose to keep away of my life. There are millions of things to worship in the visible world. But the Masters are not visible. We must dress up with the invisible clothes to meet the invisible Leaders. It is a serious matter. We simply need to know their voice in many ways they appear to us. And based upon their goodness to us, we will decide that we have a Master.
Religion can be made man, but triggered by a higher power that is left to us to figure out who that power is. Then, we will have a good composite to draw from. Then, our fight and confusion may slow down. We must always remember in fighting for religious belief, we also take the stand for a master.
Andre.
July 14, 2007 1:03 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 14, 2007 13:03
Anonymous,
Please study some history.
Crowley's law was, "Do what ye will, shall be the whole of the law."
Not Gardener's 'An if it harm none do what ye will'Which is opposite of Crowley's belief and way of life. Crowley was called The Beast...and whether he earned it or not He took pride in the epithaph. Crowley died in 1947...Gardner's book came out in 1954, after the Law against Witchcraft was repealed in England, after he had met Dorothy Clutterbuck in the New Forest and learned from her and her group about Witchcraft.
Crowley's magick was Ceremonial Magick, that is High Magick, it carries with it different traditions and rituals..it is mostly an off shoot of esoteric Christianity and ceremonial Eygptian Magick...believing in demons, angels and beings of evil. It is nothing like Wicca or any earth centered faith.
This is a sample of a Crowley invocation, a copy of Egyptian magickal invocation:
'so that every Spirit of the Firmament and of the Ether: Upon the Earth and under the Earth; on dry land and in the Water: of whirling Air; and of rushing Fire and every spell and scourge of God may be obedient to Me.'
The scourge of God he is talking about is the Christain god, not the God of our people. And we never demand for our Gods to be obedient to us. Our gods work with us, we do not treat them as servents, nor are we servents to them.
Crowly followed a mystery religion,OTO...but there are many mystery religions. There is a core that is in Paganism and the mystery religions, is it a surprise that those faiths that include those religions should have simularities? Does that mean that I a follower of one form of mystery religion should find it odd that I might have something in common with another? Did the mystery religion of Hecate take from those of Demeter?
Now if you want to go back to the ancient Mesopotamia, you will find much of what we practice. If you want to go to Babylonia you will see it, if you go to Ur, or even in the ancient Hebrew camps where the women would go into the hills on full moon nights and make offerings of moon Cakes and wine to the Queen of Heaven...who was Ishtar.
Just because those men of the early renewal of the esoteric religions know each other and that they all studied occult literature does not mean that what they found individually was hoccum.People interested in the same topic usually do cluster together. Those interested in birds might also be interested in seeds.
To equate Witchcraft with scientology shows your ignorance...like I said Study.
And other then that, who asked for your opinion on our beliefs?
You also forget about The Golden Bough written by Frazier in 1896, long before Gardner. I also have a copy of the Phycology of Witchcraft 1924, Charles Leland's Gospel of Witches 1899 or Apuleius's Golden Ass written pre 158/9 AD, this is the only book of Roman-Greco times that has survived intact. It's like saying that Shamans did not exist, the Pristesses and Priests in the temples did not exist... there is not a thing in Wicca that was "created" whole cloth by modern man, in cluding it's name. From the Athame, wand, cup and Pentacle to herbs, divination, Circles and rites they have all been from the beginning of time...transitioning and migrating but there.
terra
June 2, 2007 2:31 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 2, 2007 14:31
Anonymous:
Modern day Wicca is usually credited to Gardner and Alexander, but some aspects of Goddess worship, that are still used today in either belief or ritual (or both), in one form or another can be found in traditions and cultures going back about at least 30,000 years or so, if not even older. The Masons and Rosecrutians of old, among others, lend some of their practices to those who influenced Gardner and Crowley himself.
Scientology was most definitely created out of whole cloth, all at once. Wicca and paganism is created more like a patchwork quilt, using much older pieces to create something workable in modern times. Many Wiccans today are working on removing the modern from the older parts to make something as close to the older roots as possible that can still be used today.
Even Abrahamic traditions have some mystery traditions buried within them too if you look hard enough.
Like Wicca and Paganism itself, the history is not exactly linear since there were a lot of folks out to destroy paganism for one purpose or another. Much information has been lost. A lot of what we do know about some of the pagans of the past come out of writings of people who painted them in very suspicious terms, without a real clear understanding of who they were and what they actually believed.
To assume that all Wiccans follow Gardner or Crowley is the same as assuming that all Christians follow exactly what the pope/Church tells them to. Or to assume that all Protestants are Lutherans.
June 1, 2007 10:37 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 1, 2007 22:37
Wicca is a fabrication of Gerald Gardner, a disciple of Aleister Crowley. It is a watered down version of Crowley's complex system of ceremonial magick.
Why do you people continue to believe this hoax that
doesn't have pedigree any more ancient than Scientology?
June 1, 2007 1:23 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 1, 2007 13:23
Blessed Be Maggiemay,
The problem is that by the time Starhawk replies, when there is a question she can reply to, there is a short time for comments on her page...but her page is usually one of the most popular.
We get some good conversations going...
Nemaste,
terra
June 1, 2007 4:07 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 1, 2007 04:07
What a wonderful discussion I've stumbled upon. Reading the Charge of the Goddess always makes me tingle.
Blessed be...
June 1, 2007 2:14 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 1, 2007 02:14
To Paganplace: When I say man basically has not changed I am not talking about his toys or his knowledge of how things work, I am talking about how he acts, still trying to lord it over his fellow man, killing and terrorizing if need be. Take a look at the world is it really any different than it was in the past. Our weapons may be more sophisticated and our cruelty on a more massive scale but is it any different really. What Jesus taught and what most of the people say that He taught is worlds apart. A lot of what people that call themselves christians say is such pure hatred, it is not even close to what the bible actually means. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum
May 31, 2007 7:28 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 31, 2007 19:28
Thanks guys...!
I am a proud mama...Silv is a very special person with much to give. Can you tell I am beaming with pride?? She is also my Maiden and a mother hen as far as I am concerned. lol.
PP..Welcome and you too Lep...and as for the rest of you..come to Covenspace...a new poll I have up...beware blatent promotion-
------------
Should Pagans be involved in Politics?
Pagans are above all that! ohhh Look at that fairy!!!
I hug trees but to hell with Global warming. I might be discriminated against.
I am citizen and Pagan and I care what happens in my name.
----------------
also you will have the opprotunity to have all kinds of info from all over.
www.gazelle.covenspace.com
Blessed be!
terra
May 31, 2007 4:02 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 31, 2007 16:02
Congratulations, Silvlaro!
Bright blessings on your new journey ! :)
May 30, 2007 7:13 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 30, 2007 19:13
Hey, Terra, I've been looking for an excuse to hang out there. :) And congrats. :)
May 30, 2007 4:12 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 30, 2007 16:12
Congratulations Silvlaro!
Terra, you must be feeling a lot like a proud mama at the moment.
May 30, 2007 3:59 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 30, 2007 15:59
PS- Anonymous is me...
terra gazelle
May 30, 2007 2:31 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 30, 2007 14:31
FYI-
Silv is going to be given her second degree in the Fall. Get ready to title her Lady. LOL...
I wish we had a forum where we could continue our discussions...
Blessings to all...
I invite you all to Covenspace...a place for pagans like My Space. You Pagan friendly non pagans are welcome to my page and group. But remember it is in a pagan site.
My page-Witches Hat Rack
www.gazelle.covenspace.com
my group-Voices on the Path
www.vox.covenspace.com
terra
May 30, 2007 2:29 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 30, 2007 14:29
Pretty one, Silv... :)
May 30, 2007 12:59 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 30, 2007 12:59
"Interesting angle on the Immaculate Conception. I like that a lot better than what I was taught as a child, which was that Mary was told that she was going to have a baby, no ifs, ands, or buts."
I think that's where we see this idea of "Submit by free will or be damned," which simply redefines coercion as not-coercion.
Too often this is simply used to deny that coercion is happening, while simultaneously blaming the victims for it by claiming it was their 'free will' not to have submitted already.
Which can lead to a sort of 'Stockholm Syndrome' which is part of our 'pack instincts' out of control because we've denied it. Maybe turning them into more like *herd* instincts, as these metaphors go.
Really, we're creatures of an interplay of dominance, submission, *and* cooperation: there's a tendency in some schools of thought to end up valuing only the 'dominant male' parts of our experience and consider the other parts of us as 'unworthy' parts which must be made to shut up to appease and obey an 'unquestionable' alpha-male-king-figure... and all people who want power over others have had to do is *identify* themselves with that figure and use conditioned shame as a bludgeon to call any uppity betas or omegas/scapegoats
'Choosing to be unworthy.'
There are certainly other ways to see the world, ...even those myths.
May 30, 2007 12:57 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 30, 2007 12:57
Silvlaro:
That's beautiful. I have a journal in which I record the words of others that feed my soul. Your devotional is going in there.
May 30, 2007 12:55 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 30, 2007 12:55
Thank you Starhawk, you put that very well. This question is the same as asking, which came first the chicken or the egg? … the responses aren’t always as cut and dried as people would like.
Terra, thank you as well. It feels good seeing you … it’s nice to know I’m not the only one you … ummmm … never mind.
Having read through the posts here I have something I would like to add. This is a devotional I wrote and now use daily; it is how I feel. Speaking for myself, my connection goes beyond the everyday. It is a deep and wonderful web that connects me to everything and everyone regardless of where or who. With that thought in mind I find it difficult not to honor all life no matter what boundaries or labels society puts on them.
For those of you who have no wish to understand please feel free to pass over this contribution, for those who are genuinely seeking information to have a better idea of where some of us are coming from please read on, I hope this helps…
I Honor Thee
As I rose in the morning
Greeting each new day
I honor Thee
With each bit of nourishment
And each breath I take
I honor Thee
With each thought
And every deed
I honor Thee
As I accomplish each
Task and goal
I honor Thee
With each step
Along my life’s path
I honor Thee
With my body
Mind and spirit
I honor Thee
With all I am
Say and do
I honor Thee
Recognizing You
In every living thing
I honor Thee
Acknowledging You
Within me
I honor Thee
Holding You close
Within my heart
I honor Thee
Author Silvlaro
© Copyright 2006
May 30, 2007 12:47 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 30, 2007 12:47
Not sure exactly what you're getting at, there, Thomas.
Yes, we *have* changed very much, actually, in many ways. Some things do change: personally, I see the worship of laws and plans and writing and Kings as people worshiping in the form of what was *high tech* at the time.
Certainly our *conceptions* of spiritual experience can change, and evolve, and that's scary to some.
Especially if they telescope history *and* change through a book, which they're *taught* to believe describes how people are *now and forever* in the *first place.*
You can't really expect to see things any other way if that's the perception you're taught is 'adherence to the plan' in the first place.
Certainly, I think I speak for most Pagans when I say we aren't afraid of our hearts and minds, I think we're tired of *people* judging them based on our religious affiliations.
Certainly, we think that saying something which frankly *does* come off egomaniac *isn't* egomaniac just because someone *says it isn't because it 'must be the plan'* doesn't make sense.
I mean, what are you supposed to say to folks who do that, except, maybe, "Hey, Emperor. Nice suit."
We observe in the universe, that *change *is* a constant, as well as evolution: "She changes everything She touches, and everything She touches changes."
It's one thing to have a sense of continuity, but denying that 'change' *is* 'the plan' just leaves people baffled when stuff falls down or stops working. :)
You could say that if something isn't going to change right now, it needs no protection of kid gloves from us, and if it is, heh, well, just try and stop it. :)
Which, of course, puts the responsibility for being aware and choosing what we do back on us, where it always was.
As for saying, 'Don't question the plan, the plan is incomprehensible except for where it says cause my idea of the plan says don't question my idea of the plan,' well, that just doesn't make a lot of sense to us.
Gods and their children walking among humans, that's not something we consider novel or unique. , especially in terms of making any particular demands, particularly 'Obey cause I said so,' which is what that usually comes down to, lately.
We'd say that "God," (we like to say Goddess) *is* a woman, *is* a man, ...in fact, several of them. All of them. "God" is a tree, a bunch of dirt, a crop a stag of seven tines, perhaps, ...As well as a world, a belt of stars, ...a living universe, a living multiverse, the value pi, a banana cream pie, a '63 Chevy, ...us. :)
Everything. One might say it's not the 'divinity' of your Christ that's the problem, it's *denying the divinity* of *everything else* that's so often cut us off from our birthrights as living spiritual beings, and the treasures of our many cultures.
Turning the world into *anti-divinity.*
By enshrining *jealousy,* perhaps.
Seek that, and, yeah, that's what you'll find. I'm not sure what that's supposed to say about 'plans,' but we don't think such an idea of a 'plan' is much of an excuse or rationale for anything.
Particularly being patronizing about what you think *your* mind has made. Next thing you know, you're starting to label *people* as *defying the very simple plan,* just for living or being different.
Certainly leads to that hubris of thinking, "I know the simple plan, and it means everyone should do and believe the same things."
Not much of a plan, that, I think.
May 30, 2007 12:32 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 30, 2007 12:32
Thomas Baum:
"Also God is not a man or a woman but God Incarnate was a man and He asked permission from a Lady to become a man, God does not violate our free will."
Interesting angle on the Immaculate Conception. I like that a lot better than what I was taught as a child, which was that Mary was told that she was going to have a baby, no ifs, ands, or buts.
May 30, 2007 12:10 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 30, 2007 12:10
Isn't it something that the sheer simplicity of God's Plan is so baffling to us that we sometimes refuse to even think that it could be true. We do have free will and I have said yes to God. With all this head knowledge that we have acquired over the years has man basically changed very much? Now we worship ourselves, our brains and all the things that we make. God does not look at your religious affiliation or lack thereof He is a searcher of hearts and minds. He is not an egomaniac but Pure Love and His Plan is for all of His children. Also God is not a man or a woman but God Incarnate was a man and He asked permission from a Lady to become a man, God does not violate our free will. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum
May 30, 2007 11:02 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 30, 2007 11:02
And, well, Anonymous, on a 'jealous God', I guess that can be what you get when you start calling *a* God "God." So happens the concept occurred in Egypt before, but I really don't know what a Pagan ought to say about that, except we pretty studiously avoid that kind of idea of an absolutely-powerful jealous God.
I think we've seen where that can get you.
To wit, you get *jealous and fearful religions.*
I think, Terra, that's one reason I'm careful about saying, 'All Gods/Goddesses are One God/Goddess' too much. It's one of those things that out of context, can be as divisive as unifying: could lead to lazy thinking and maybe even ideas of 'My particular God *is* God.' ...or people thinking you're saying that.
At least while people tend to like shortcuts. :)
Maybe that's supposed to be experienced as Mystery. :) ;
Certainly, I think it's easier to learn more *human* lessons from more approachable Gods, and understand that our view of the Divine is necessarily-limited. It's one danger, too, of putting too many words out there: tell someone, and they'll think they know. :)
May 30, 2007 10:40 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 30, 2007 10:40
Paganplace, wonderful.
It is hard explaining us. It is so easy to leave out something neccessary for other's understanding.
MY tradition is soft Polytheism also. AS they say All Goddesses are One Goddess and all Gods are one God. Co-joined they are the Initiator.
I have called on Kali Ma... as well as Quan Yin, and the Morrigan, as well as my own Pantheon...all parts of the whole.The Descent of the Goddess is what our particular philosophy is based on. There is the ancient Descent from Ishtar, but we identify more with the Strega one. The Descent can be found all over the world in one form or another.
Anonymous,
In my way of seeing things...you can not create what you do not have in you. You can not create hate without knowing hate...you can not create love without knowing love. It's like making a cake, you can not make one without having the ingredients. Even the Gods have to follow the laws of the universe, they made them, they are them... lol.
Why do you say "cursed with human emotion"? You can not have wisdom without emotion. Research has been done on which is better...what leads to better choices, logic alone or with emotion? Come to find out that better choices were made when people listened to their emotions as well as logic...that is saying when they listened to their whole being...not just to mind. See it as if you were going to touch something hot that would burn you. Do you feel the heat and draw your hand back, or do you wait til you get burned to make sure it is hot?
The problem is not emotion, it is not thinking as well as feeling.
Of course all Gods are also reflections of those who honor them. As also we are reflections of the Gods we honor. It is symbiosis.
But then I am a Witch, emotion is natural and how I work. It is integrated with my logic.
Everyting has a meaning, a use. Nothing stands alone...everything is dependent on everything else.
terra
May 30, 2007 2:33 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 30, 2007 02:33
Henry James:
"People should stop WASTING their time
Reading the Bible"
I guess it takes all kinds. I'm attempting to learn Koine, so that I can read the NT in Greek.
Not to get closer to God, but because the history of Christianity is SO interesting.
May 29, 2007 11:27 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 29, 2007 23:27
I find it revealing that when God is refered to in the Bible he pocesses peculiarly human emotions. He is sometimes angry,vengeful, jealous etc... If God is truely all knowing why would he-it react to something that he could forsee? .One can only be angry, vengeful, jealous when one has no control over a situation and certainly not one where the outcome is already known. It just seems odd that believers cannot recognize that if there were truely a god he would not be cursed with human emotions. God has the imprint of man's handywork and all that it entails all over him.
May 29, 2007 8:23 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 29, 2007 20:23
WOW. I think I'm going to have to print a lot of this thread. So many things I wasn't aware of. What I really love about this journey is the more I find out, the less I really do know. It makes it all exciting and new again.
Color me impressed. :)
May 29, 2007 7:26 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 29, 2007 19:26
*and *wow,* there's a lot more posts that came up when I was writing that than I had thought. :)
Anyway, that's me trying to take a half-step out of my own worldview and describe the big picture I tend to see: (wow, that can be hard. :) ) Necessarily incomplete, but I hope a little informative.
I think the song's more eloquent. :) Not to mention the Dance. :)
May 29, 2007 5:51 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 29, 2007 17:51
My Pagan friends, it gives me such pleasure when you say: "The universe is alive and somehow conscious."
That is so true. We ECLATi-ONs believe the same thing and we know that we are part of that universal consciousness. Therefore, we can never die. Our PHOTONS (light source energy) will simple merge with the greater power out there. I don't really know what happens to the ECLATi-OFFs, but I think maybe they get sucked up into a black hole. :o)
May 29, 2007 5:30 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 29, 2007 17:30
Well-said, again, Terra. :)
She's speaking for Wicca, mostly, Anonymous. I've got a tendency to speak in at least 'popular Wicca' terms, myself, cause that's where I first learned it, but it's my observation that there *are* in fact community standards: strong ones, at that.
Wicca's an influential subset of Paganism, which does have shared values and beliefs at least as common as those of other religions, so... a lot of your questions aren't considered the most relevant ones to begin with.
Who are you to insist that something must be "BS without basis" because our beliefs don't incorporate so much *advertising?* :)
We may have a stab or two at *describing* ourselves, but *defining* isn't seen as such a priority cause we aren't on some mission to tell the rest of the world how to believe or practice, anyway. Never mind limit ourselves in those kinds of ways. A certain amount of fractiousness helps protect us from the *dogmatism* that we're in general trying to avoid. :)
We may revere the Earth as sacred, but generally won't be found saying, 'Don't disrespect the Earth because it'll piss off the Goddess,' except maybe as a metaphor for "Umm, if you mess up the biosphere, it'll be messed-up. You won't like that."
Most modern Pagans believe in a *diversity of manifestations of the Divine,* as we see in the Gods of our ancestors and/or in the living universe itself.
That... It's existentially OK to pick (or be picked by) some and for others to pick (or be picked by) some others? Wow. :)
Our shared ethics are something more organic than what you'd call 'standards of orthodoxy or orthopraxy.' We may *embrace* practices, from elaborate traditions to simple private devotionals to anything in between.
They grow out of certain basic observations, which are similar to (and often called) 'Karma.'
Here's my attempt to paint a broad picture of modern Pagan belief:
a) The universe is alive and in some way conscious, and we're part of it. Often related to through myth and story and celebration: quite central is often the figure of the Goddess of Many Names, for whom the Charge is said to speak when it says, 'All acts of love and pleasure are My rituals:' (Note it doesn't say 'love *or* pleasure.' People tend to take that wrong.) The Wiccan Rede, adhered to by 'most' Pagans in one form or another, I would say, says, "If it harms none, do what you will."
This is about freedom *as well as* responsibility: in fact, the responsibility *of* freedom and the freedom *of* responsibility. What constitutes harm,(or greater or lesser harm) is generally open to rational discussion, at least till someone comes along and says something we find silly like "Disobeying *my* book is harmful because my book says it is, somehow," or "Smacking you isn't harmful cause I say it's good!"
In a sense, this is an authority and responsibility we believe the Gods put on *us,* or, is just a property of our existence, cause:
b) What you do comes back to you: not only that, it tends to *snowball:* (we call this the Rule of Three, or Threefold Return:) therefore we should be aware, responsible, and of good will when we act. A lot of folks think the factor of three is arbitrary: I think there's particular meaning and utility in it. We like threes, anyway.
c) The progress of time tends to be viewed as cyclical: not linear and not dependent upon an idea that the world (and the soul) has a defined beginning and end: observances are cyclical and seasonal, ...something called the Wheel of The Year, often but not always manifested in a view of people themselves being among a reincarnating, or at least regenerating world: the idea is that the soul goes through many forms and changes. This doesn't come with the connotations of the cycle being a thing essentially to be escaped as suffering, (at least not right now,) or anything like the idea of the personality necessarily surviving death intact, say.
Two major schools of thought within Paganism can be: 'Hard polytheism' (seeing the Gods as distinct and separate personalities: this is very common among those who choose to try and recreate specific ancestral traditions, (*lots* of these sort of branch off or subdivide within the community, or even have split off, theologically, to focus on their own thing:) most particularly the Nordic ones that picture a more permanent sort of afterlife, and the world in a much longer cycle of rebirth, one might say. A lot of these folks prefer to call themselves Heathens, which is sort of a separate thing, (they can justifiably call themselves a religion all their own, even if many turn up for the 'family reunions.' :) ) but there's 'hard polytheism' in general Paganism, too. There's certainly a common dynamic of learning from cultures of the past, from culture and myth, and applying it in the present.
'Soft polytheism' often incorporates the idea that all the Gods, like people, may be distinct in some ways, and part of a greater whole, themselves: appearing to us in different ways for whatever reason. This often connects with The Great Goddess (or or *as* a union of the God and Goddess) being the biggest being in, indeed, the entirety of the universe, if not multiverse. :) '
You could call me a 'soft polytheist,' myself.
Anyway, definitions, by definition, tend to divide, ...there's also a diverse unity about the movement that the community values of itself... and that, ironically, is one thing that you could say, really *defines* us, compared to a lot of the rest of the world.
The world is our greatest teacher, you might say, ...so we tend to find claims of exclusive revelation rather silly: it's rather like, if someone comes up and says, 'You're going to Hell!' the reaction may in fact be, "I'm sorry you built a world where that happens to people."
I think we can see the results of behaving like that.
As for this:
"my question was - how do we know it just isn't a picture of any pregnant woman and a man wearing a stag head, instead of religious?"
Is there a difference? :)
How do you *need* to know? :)
May 29, 2007 5:00 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 29, 2007 17:00
Lord of the Dance
Aidan Kelly
When She danced on the waters and the wind was Her horn
The Lady laughed and everything was born
And when She lit the sun and the light gave Him birth
The Lord of the Dance first appeared on the earth
(chorus) "Dance dance, wherever you may be
For I am the Lord of the Dance," cried he
"And I'll live in you if you live in me
And I'll lead you all in the dance," cried he.
I dance in the circle when the flames leap up high
I dance in the fire and I never ever die
I dance in the waves of the bright summer sea
For I am the Lord of the Wave's mystery
(chorus)
I sleep inthe kernel and I dance in the rain
I dance in the wind and through the waving grain
And when you cut me down I care nothing for the pain
For in spring I am Lord of the Dance once again
(chorus)
I dance at the feasts and stories I do tell
I dance and I sing that everyong be well
And when the dancings over do no think I am gone
For to live is to dance so I dance on and on
(chorus)
The horn of the Lady casts its song across the plain
The birds took the notes and gave them back again
Till the sound of Her music was song in the sky
And to that song there is one reply
(chorus)
The moon in Her phases and the tides of the sea
The motion of the earth and the seasons that will be
Are the rhythm of the dancing and our promise through the years
The dance goes on through our joys and tears
(chorus)
They danced in the darkness and they danced in the night
They danced on the earth and everything was bright
They danced out the darkness and they danced out the dawn
The day of the dancing still goes on and on...
(chorus) . . . end
May 29, 2007 4:53 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 29, 2007 16:53
Anonymous,
Cernunnos has been worshipped from the earliest times..
There are numerous archeological and literary references to a horned god / demigod / hero / beast-man found throughout the European territories. They include the cave painting of an antlered figure called “the Sorcerer” in the Trois Freres cave in Ariege, France; the petrogliphs found at Val Camonica, Lombardy, Italy; the silver-plated Gundestrup Cauldron found in Denmark; the Germanic legend about the wild man of the woods; the statues of a horned man discovered with Roman artifacts in France; British coins bearing his image; and the Welsh legends of Gwyn ap Nudd and the Boucca. A carving of an antlered man is still visible on a Neolithic dolmen in Ireland. A bronze amulet with the head of a moose and body of a man was found in Russia. A horned figure was discovered in a Roman fortress in Durham, Northumberland in England, believed to be Celtic and created sometime between the 4th and 6th centuries. All of these images pre-date the Christian legend of Satan as a horned anti-deity.
Other artifacts bear evidence of our ancestors’ reverence for the stag or beast-man figure. Although the famed Abbots Bromley Horn Dance is “only” 950 to 1, 200 years old, an excavation of a Mesolithic settlement in Star Carr, Yorkshire, England was discovered to contain hollowed stag skulls, with antlers intact. These skulls had holes drilled in them to contain thin rawhide straps, to make them wearable as a headdress. There are carvings of a horned or antlered male figure in several churches in western Europe dating from the twelfth to the fifteenth centuries. An image of a man with curling ram’s horns was discovered in the basement of Notre Dame Cathedral. A wooden mask with bull’s horns, familiarly called the “’Ooser” was used in ritual folkplays and as a figure of punishment for spouse-abusers in Dorset up to the late 1800s. Some archeologists believe that the antlered images represent a hunting deity, while the horned men were depicted after the invention of agriculture and the domestication of animals.
The archetype of the Horned God seems to be quite universal. East India has a legendary Lord of the Beasts called Pashupati or Rhudra who looks amazingly similar to the European deity. In Bhutan and Mexico, stag dancers enact a symbolic ritual sacrifice. A deer Kachina is revered by the Navajo. Found in a Viking hoard was a golden statue of a man with deer’s hooves. The Lapp people have a forest god called Radien Kiedde, pictured as a man with reindeer antlers. There is even a wooden mask of an antlered man from a Native American culture discovered in Oklahoma. If Pan, the Faunus and Dionysus are included, the horned or antlered beast-man can be said to be a worldwide phenomenon.
The word “Cernunnos” likely came from the Roman invasions of the Gaulish lands. This inscription exists on only one written source, the fresco of a man with ram’s horns found under Notre Dame in Paris. There are similar spellings of the name in other locations, including one in Greek, which may refer to the same entity. In Latin, Cernunnos simply means “horned one”. In one Romano-Gaulish carving, a man with horns is standing beside the Roman gods Mercury and Zeus. Since these figures are deified, it’s quite probable that the horned man is also considered to be a god. The more recent English name Herne may derive from the Latin “Corn”, or old French “Cern”, meaning horned. The word “Cornucopia” means “Horn of Plenty”. A ceremony called the “Kirn Supper” was held during the Harvest Home ritual, which involved harvesting grain and baking and eating bread. The Welsh version of Santa Claus is “Sion Cern”. Cerne Abbas is home to the famous chalk carving of the priappic giant above the Cerne River. The original name for Cornwall is Kernow, both of which may refer to a horn. There is a Herne Hill in London and a Herne Bay in southern England. In fact, in Britain alone, there are over sixty references to Herne in place-names, most believed to be pre-Christian. Many people in the U.K. bear the surname Hearn, Herne, O’Hern, Trehern, Hernden, Hobson, Hod or Hood.
The horned man, man-deer, man-horse or beast-man is a figure of lore and legend as well. St. Patrick is said to have transformed himself and his companions into deer to hide from his enemies. In one King Arthur tale, Merlin rode a stag into the middle of a wedding celebration. Perhaps these stories originate from an older pre-Christian ritual or legend. The Woodwose, or wild man of the woods, was a popular figure on the coat-of-arms of Norman nobility and in churches found in the British Isles and on the continent. He is sometimes depicted as half-man, half-beast. Some speculate that the name of the horned Dorset ’Ooser mask came from “Grand Wooser”, or woodwose. The beloved tales of Robin Hood include a fight with Guy of Gisborne, a man wearing a whole horse-hide as a hooded cloak. Saint Cornelly, the patron of wild animals, is sometimes shown wearing antlers, and may be a Christianization of Herne or Cernunnos. In recent times, the metaphor of a man wearing stag’s horns meant that his wife had been unfaithful, perhaps an allusion to an earlier fertility ritual. Of course, we all know the colloquial meaning of the word “horny”.
Anthropologists speculate that pre-Christian shamans wore antlers and animal hides in a ceremony to imitate hunting, thereby attracting deer to their tribal lands. Some believe that these rites were performed as a spirit journey, perhaps to commune with a totem. The original Herne may have represented this concept. Up until the 1920s, Siberian shamans practiced similar rituals, and photographs were taken of them wearing antlered hoods. One of the paintings in the Lascaux cavern in France is of an entity with a bison head and human feet, who appears to be carrying a short hunting bow. He was discovered in 1940. A similar image was etched on a bone found in 1928 in the Pinhole Cave in the Creswell Crags of Derbyshire, England. And let’s not forget the famous “Sorcerer” of Les Trois Freres. These images strongly resemble the masked figure of the stag, bull or horse in many English mummers’ plays and hoodening rituals. These folk customs, documented from the Medieval period onward, could not possibly have used the cave art for inspiration, as the prehistoric carvings and paintings were not re-discovered until much later. These customs may also suggest an image seen while in a trance state.
So, was Herne / Cernunnos the original “God of the Witches”? We have no way of knowing for certain. The Horned Lord appears often enough in folklore, artwork, legend, ritual dances, place names, surnames and artifacts to believe that he was and is revered by many civilizations. He often appears as a mystical figure related to hunting and death. He was also a character of buffoonery, sexuality and fun, as portrayed by the Greek god Pan, the Basque Basa-jaun and the Roman faun or satyr.
I personally believe that hoodening rites and the ritual use of animal skins, skulls, horns or antlers are the “missing link” which connects pre-Christian ceremonies to the modern Pagan worship of the Horned God. Perhaps seekers might try making an excursion to the woodlands to invoke Cernunnos for themselves!
May 29, 2007 4:34 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 29, 2007 16:34
Lets get back to Hitchens...want to see this slimeball get his ass kicked in a debate on the Iraq war:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH_BULU2vcM
Great stuff!
I bet he came up with this new book to divert from his stance on the Iraq war.
What a NEOCON, what a piece of TROTSKYITE scum!!!!!
Permanant revolution, eh? How is it going, Hitch???
May 29, 2007 4:13 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 29, 2007 16:13
The Rede is confusing if you do not know what it is saying. It's like a different language, and can be misunderstood. If you know some of the ways of Wicca you can practice it more fully with the Rede.
It really is more complicated then it seems.
As in the 2nd Couplet-
ye must live and let live, fairly take and fairly give
The second couplet of the Rede teaches: " ye must live and let live, fairly take and fairly give." In it's simplicity, this lesson stresses the value and sanctity of all life, the importance of the abstinance fom theft and for generosity and compassion.
In human society, we claim to have made life and the preservation of that life our top priority. Our laws reflect this mentality, but in a hypocritical manner. We hold human life as sacred, but all other life, even the Earth herself is expendable. This is a gross philosophical imbalance, and one that has created suffering throughout time.
In the world's sacred and so-called revealed sciptures, we find that humanity was given the gift of life by the very Gods, and because of this belief humanity has grown arrogant. We have begun to feel supreme on Earth, as if human life were in some way divine and sacred, and more holy than other forms of life. This is simply not true. While it is true that the Gods did give to us the gift of life, it was also these same Gods that fashioned the material world and gave life to the plants, and animals as well. There is a simple formula to this: Since the Gods created humanity, then human life is sacred and divine, but so too is all life, since the Gods created all that exists! We must keep this in mind while thinking about the second cuplet of the Wiccan Rede.
Many Human Rights activists advocate an ideal called absolute freedom, yet the very concept of absolute freedom is a myth. It should not and can not exist...we can not hinder another's freedom. When you take the mind set of having absolute freedom in your life, you create a vaccume else where...we can not increase the standard of our lives at the expence of others. In many third world nations, an entire nation is kept in povertywhile working as slaves to provide luxuries for the world's wealthy nations.
A better philosophy would be to provide "restrained freeom", this is a compassionate idea. Each individual is responcible to evaluate the amount of freedom that is necessary for an acceptable standard of living. We must not be gluttons and over use our abilities and wasteing what we have, and not careing for others. We must restrain our freedoms to the point where we can enjoy our lives while not makeing others pay the price.
As the Wiccan Rede states so clearly, "ye must live and let live." We should grant the same standard of life, to all life, and cease the theft of resourses from throughtout our dark past of raising our standard of liveing through the slavery and pain of others.
The second part of this teaching is eternalized in the phrase " fairly take and fairly give." When one steals from the universe, it is the same as stealing from one's own mother. This statement has been true throughout human time...Contemplate this deep meaning. At the moment there is a very good example: originally there were eight million square miles of tropical rain forest encirclling the Earth. Due to humanity's greed more then half have been burned, bulldozed and destroyed. Right now there is only about three and a half million square miles left. When you stop and think that the tropical rian forest provides between twenty five to fourty percent of all pharma products, we then begin to understand what a grand scale our ignorance has reached. This does not scratch the surface of the grand injustice that we do to other members of the rain forests, such as the animals and native humans.
As Wiccans. we should contemplate daily on how we can increase our mindfulness of our compassion and generosity, so that not only our life is enriched but all other life as well.
----------------
This is from a lesson I have for my students on the second stanza of the Rede. Each stanza means more then you read. That is how Wicca and most Pagan religions are...there is always something below the surface.
Blessed Be!
terra
May 29, 2007 3:57 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 29, 2007 15:57
I think that the picture that he's referring to is a common one of the Goddess as a pregnant woman, and the Horned God. Why the Goddess is often pictured as a pregnant woman is that She is the Mother of all things. She's pregnant with the Earth, the animals, plants, insects, humans, rocks, etc. She IS the Earth.
The guy with the Horns is the Horned God - NOT Satan! The Horned God is the Goddess's son, lover, and protector. He fertilizes the Earth in order for things to grow. The Celtic (Irish/Scottish, etc.) version is often portrayed with stag horns because the stag was sacred to the Celts. However, the God has many names and forms - Osiris, Horus, Zeus, John Barleycorn, even Jehovah and Jesus. Yes, Jesus was one of many Middle-Eastern dying and resurrected Gods. Most Pagans don't have a problem with Jesus, but find many of His followers to be annoying.
Discovering that one is a Pagan (I hesitate to use the word "conversion") is the shift in thinking required from God being a separate entity and God being a part of everything - the shift from monotheism to panentheism. It has been said that Pagans are both pantheists - believing in multiple Gods - and panentheists - believing that God is in everything. It's the difference between "This tree was made by God" and "This tree is a part of God." Yes, we worship the Creator and the Creation, because they are one in the same.
May 29, 2007 3:44 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 29, 2007 15:44
Gaea, or Mother Earth, was the great goddess of the early Greeks. She represented the Earth and was worshipped as the universal mother. In Greek mythology, she created the Universe and gave birth to both the first race of gods (the Titans) and the first humans.
In the creation story of the ancient Greeks, Chaos came before everything else. Chaos was made of Void, Mass, and Darkness in confusion. Then Earth, in the form of Gaea, came into existence. From Mother Earth sprang the starry heavens, in the form of the sky god Uranus. From Gaea also came the mountains, plains, seas and rivers that make up the Earth as we know it today.
Gaea, or Mother Earth, was the oldest of the gods of the early Greeks. She was known as the supreme goddess by humans and gods alike. She presided over marriages and oaths and was honored as a prophetess.
----------
She is Terra Mater, Earth Mother...Mother of Demeter...Goddess of the surface of the Earth, Goddess of Plenty...and grandmother to Kore-Persephone, the Goddess of Spring and the Underworld.
-----------The symbol of Gaea being pregnant is that she gives birth to all there is. From Her we come to Her we shall return. She is Great Mother...Magna Mater.
May 29, 2007 3:37 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 29, 2007 15:37
Anonymous..
Cernunnos
by Dr Anthony E. Smith
"The Horned One" is a Celtic god of fertility, life, animals, wealth, and the underworld. He was worshipped all over Gaul, and his cult spread into Britain as well. Cernunnos is depicted with the antlers of a stag, sometimes carries a purse filled with coin. The Horned God is born at the winter solstice, marries the goddess at Beltane, and dies at the summer solstice. He alternates with the goddess of the moon in ruling over life and death, continuing the cycle of death, rebirth and reincarnation.
Paleolithic cave paintings found in France that depict a stag standing upright or a man dressed in stag costume seem to indicate that Cernunnos' origins date to those times. Romans sometimes portrayed him with three cranes flying above his head. Known to the Druids as Hu Gadarn. God of the underworld and astral planes. The consort of the great goddess. He was often depicted holding a bag of money, or accompanied by a ram-headed serpent and a stag. Most notably is the famous Gundestrup cauldron discovered in Denmark.
May 29, 2007 3:29 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 29, 2007 15:29
Anonymous,
You are asking the wrong person. I have no clue which picture you speak of.
May 29, 2007 3:25 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 29, 2007 15:25