All Comments (63)

Starhawk I would just like to thank you for all of the work you have done to present our spirituality in such a positive light. I have recognized myself as a wiccan for 21 years now and like so many others the spiral dance was one of the books that clicked with me. As a mother, wife, nurse, and coven priestess I really commend you for all that you have done to show the world that we are a valid religion. Blessed Be and Thank You.

Starhawk I would just like to thank you for all of the work you have done to present our spirituality in such a positive light. I have recognized myself as a wiccan for 21 years now and like so many others the spiral dance was one of the books that clicked with me. As a mother, wife, nurse, and coven priestess I really commend you for all that you have done to show the world that we are a valid religion. Blessed Be and Thank You.

Susan:
Why should we take ourselves seriously? Why does religion need to be taken seriously? If one cannot give respect to me because I do not conduct myself according to their personal ideals and standards, that is their own problem that they should soul search as to why they don't like my lifestyle and come to terms with in themselves, not me. Why can't one be joyous, playful and not serious, prticularly in worship? Why can't worship be enjoyable and fun, or in the case of Discordian type pagans, a joke? Spring equinox is a time for balance and celebration of the arrival of spring, it is for new beginnings. If you want more seriousness and less joyfulness and celebration, try going to a Samhain celebration. Its more "serious" (insomuch as some pagans get), but its still a CELEBRATION.

"Furthermore, many Pagans and Wiccans are content to move every holiday to the weekend, instead of working to achieve time off on the proper days, like other religions. This is especially inappropriate for the Equinox and Solstice."

How is it inappropriate? It may not be on the exact day, but as pagans we rever life, and to stop living it in order to follow strict dogma that we have to celebrate on _THAT_ particular day seems counter productive. I have a life that I intend to live, it involves school, work, friends, pets, and to live that life means we cannot always celebrate at that moment. My boss or school may not let me off and thus I'll celebrate when I can and how I please. We have no dogma that says we have to celebrate a certain way. Its appropriate that we live our lives the way we want, particularly on equinox and solstice- they're celebrations and times for reflections. Don't forget the lessons and reasons behind the celebration and get lost in the nonexistent dogma that says you have to celebrate it that day or something bad will happen. (Rather like a bad chain letter you don't send.)

"If we want to be respected by others, then we should wait until after the ritual to bullsh**t, and celebrate holidays on the days they should be celebrated on."

Funny, I've found one does not garner respect this way. I know many Christians who celebrate their holydays on that day, yet they do not get respect either. It's not because they are celebrating wrong or right- it's more because of how they treat other people. Being serious or silly or following strict dogma doesn't factor into the equation. To be respected you must earn it and give respect to others.

Furthermore, why should we wait until after ritual? I fail to see the logic of how us conducting ourselves in any sort of matter, somber and serious, or joyful and playful, has anything to do with how the world views us at large. Last time I checked most rituals are private or at least the world at large doesn't view them, and therefore they have no holding on how the world at large respects us!

I have just seen the Nicholas Cage dvd of The Wicker Man, which contrasts quite markedly with the Edward Woodward version, which I think is a classic - with some catchy showtunes. (The following commentary expanded for benefit of laymen, et al).

Here, the leader is female and links herself directly to ancestors fleeing Salem. The population of the community look to be inbred (or way too much PCP) with genetic experimentation (clones/twins, etc). The males never talk, possibly tongues removed, and seem to exist mainly for 'breeding'. In contrast, Christopher Lee's character was the grandson of a scientist who revived an ancient religion (but which is never specified) that encourages community cohesion. The leader could just have easily been the granddaughter of the same scientist instead, and the story would still work. The Nicholas Cage version appears to be a cheap rendition, possibly misogynistic, where any symbolic references are twisted out of shape. There is no Punch/Divine Fool. The swordsmen or Morris Dancers (Sun symbol, etc) and hobby-horse are missing, and so on. The 'superior' women are portrayed as extreme feminist 'threats' who have no space in their lives for respect, love or compassion.
I sincerely hope that such a community does not actually truly exist, else I am likely to be very annoyed...

In addition, it adds to the misunderstanding regarding 'sacrifice'. The highest form of ritual execution is a willing(!) participant, and usually a member of the faith linked to that particular deity, otherwise it is insulting to the deity and hence meaningless. Not a damaged soul who just witnessed a car-crash (apparently engineered to occur), is taking medication (depression? anti-psychotics?), is a member of a different faith, and, who is hallucinating, etc. You take a bunch of flowers, sprinkle water and salt on them, waft them in some incense, mutter words of dedication, and place them on the altar. Those flowers have just been sacrificed! They don't need to be burnt, chopped-up, or destroyed in any other way. I have yet to see an Image doll used for the original purposes of healing or hunting. Neither the harvest for the Woodward film, nor the Cage film, would benefit from the murders, as their deaths were worthless. This was correctly pointed out by Edward Woodward's character. Rituals require coordination, which is why Covens are usually limited in size... And it is 'Monarch' for a day guys, not a mere five minutes. A gift of damaged goods? Also, I felt that Christopher Lee's leader would eventually take up the responsibility willingly. Whereas, female leader?

And there are problems with credibility. The doll was left on the road, forensic evidence from a damaged car - traced back to hotels, diners, etc? (Car registration? Driver of the lorry?) The film raises questions about taxation, import duties, and, the USA's security policies (borders...) and in both films a police officer would be missed, especially when other officers know where he is going. (About 30 harvest photos, so 30 years of commercial activity). How are they going to transport their expected future bumper honey harvest? (The Cage film also has an additional murder.) There are Wiccan police officers, perhaps they would care to clarify these lapses in Law Enforcement? DNA evidence from a burnt corpse? Escape from car in blink of eye? It would be fair to say that this film has left me mildly irritated. (And, half of the material from the Harry Potter books is missing from the films, as well. So you lose most of the outrage from racism and child abuse elements, plus some of the amusing bits.)

All in all, I would like to see more positive representations of our Faith, which apparently is becoming more popular and fashionable nowadays, and yet the media portrayal is still rather disappointing. Yet again, the decision regarding 'what is right and what is easy'...

Books - Terry Pratchett. Hilarious.
Films - Practical Magic (Sandra Bullock and Nicole Kidman), with some reservations.

Blessed Be the Sun that lights up your eyes.
Blessed Be the Moon that guides your path through the twilight...

PS Apologies for not presenting my thoughts as clearly, as I would have liked.

I strongly agree with the response of starhawk witches are look as evil and a threat to the world people tend to look down on others and never on them selves not knowing of their doing and that fantasy stuff just makes matters worse by giving witches a bad name!

I strongly agree with the response of starhawk witches are look as evil and a threat to the world people tend to look down on others and never on them selves not knowing of their doing and that fantasy stuff just makes matters worse by giving witches a bad name!

I strongly agree with the response of starhawk witches are look as evil and a threat to the world people tend to look down on others and never on them selves not knowing of their doing and that fantasy stuff just makes matters worse by giving witches a bad name!

Dear Starhawk: Would you please tall us what do you think about Dr Greer´s "Disclosure project".

I hear so much little about such a big thing like this. Is very sad that people dont know all about this chance we have. The hidden tech that this people talk about could give us the chance we need to save mother earth.

Pagans should play atention on this matter... we need to save the planet.

Sending love from Spain... Marciano Diuihet.

I think "The Craft" deserves a lot more merit from the Pagan community. It is one of my favourite films and if you ignore all the commercialised fluff then there are a lot of gems. For example, I love the quote from Lyria the shopkeeper: "True magic is neither black nor white, it is both because nature is both: loving and cruel, all at the same time. The only good or bad is in the heart of the Witch."

Great thread!!! I'm so pleased to have come upon it while seeking Starhawk to steal a pic of "The Fifth Sacred Thing" to reference a recent blog posting (http://phoenixrisingtattoo.hartjoy.com/2007/04/2nd-cuppa-or-not-fully-awake.html#links) (BTW, Starhawk, thank you for the Spiral Dance!!! It was my first magical book and the beginning of my outward quest for understanding)
As to "Godless Pagans" I think I might be one. LOL. I've been researching Atheism a bit lately, and my use of god and goddess archetypes to tune into the greater "Otherness", and access the power within leaves me pondering that after 30 something years as an occultist (who names herself "witch" but not "Wiccan"), I'm beginning to wonder if "Atheist Pagan" or "Atheist Occultist" mightn't be more accurate. Hehehe.

Susan,
If you work at a place that will go along with you on the Sabbats and Esbats...more power to you. As it is most Pagans can not even state they are Pagan. I think most Pagans hold a private invocation and celebration on the proper day, then gather for the group rite together. That would make the group rite less somber.It is then a case of following the rest of the Charge..a time of Mirth.

Well, Starhawk, people will never take Pagans seriously until Pagans start taking themselves seriously.

I've been to a Spring Equinox "ritual" where they treated everything as if it was a big f***ing joke, including worship.

Furthermore, many Pagans and Wiccans are content to move every holiday to the weekend, instead of working to achieve time off on the proper days, like other religions. This is especially inappropriate for the Equinox and Solstice.

If we want to be respected by others, then we should wait until after the ritual to bullsh**t, and celebrate holidays on the days they should be celebrated on.

The way Media looks at Witches and Pagans has always been somewhat skewed. Partially because when writers are writing they usually only have time to research something up to the point it will serve their purpose. To delve more deeply into something requires time, something many writers lack. (Though if they want to be really good writers they will make the time to do the research. It will make a difference.) They alway have The Deadline looming over them.

About the name thing. I have a given name, both first and last, that was the butt of jokes my whole life. My full birth name means dim-sighted, cabbage-head in the cleared field. Add my married name and I become dim-sighted, cabbage-headed woodworker in the cleared field. Not very romantic.

I took the name "SilverMoon" because of the affinity I felt with the moon from childhood. And silver has always been my favourite colour and the only metal that makes my pale white skin look even remotely attractive. Odd but true. Then, after discovering others with the same magical name, I added "Cela" which is a derivation of my given name. Then, one day while typing a reply to someone, I accidentally put a "(" at the end of "Cela". I like how it looked and added a ")" at the beginning to look like the waxing and waning crescent moons. Appropriate with "SilverMoon".

Recently I began using "SilverMoonSinger" which I feel better reflects me, no pun intended. I am a singer and can often be found singing to the moon.

All this re-naming of myself comes from my own personal journey; who I have been and who I hope to be, not someone else's idea of who I am. That's part of the joy of being Pagan; being able to see yourself as who you can be.

Not many people put as much thought into naming their children as 2 of my best friends did. After going to Ireland while in college, she and her husband decided that their first daughter would be named after her Goddess, Brigid, and the middle name would Kildare after the county where Brigid is still venerated.

My other friend was always fond of certain unusual names in the Bible, and she knew there was one person named in the Bible who danced to God before of the Ark. So she searched, with the help of another friend, until she found it and gave it to her first son: Keneniah.

Naming a child is very hard, as any parent can attest because you want only the best to go with the family name. That said, naming ourselves is harder still because this is the name that will represent us to the Magical Community and we always want to put our best face forward.

stnge thing barena is upset at the destruction of a building, but has no concern for the sentiment death to iran

My birth name means Beautiful Peace...a lovely name but not descriptive of my personality. Would the folks in here not think a thing if I call myself Beautiful Peace?
Truth be told I have gotten some serious teasing with that name.. for those who know the language.

Re Stacy Brown series, by Julie Stolarz:

Stolarz is evidently a Wiccan. Look up her website.

A book or show that shows Wicca as it is? Not that I can think of. There are bits and pieces in all of them. In Dresden Files the "Wizard" is fighting a vampire...and to fight him off, he pulls out, not a cross, but a pentacle. I loved it. It reminded me of the old question would a jewish vamp be afraid of a cross or a Star of David? Or is it the belief of the welder of the icon?

In Charmed, the first episode, there was a killing of Witches...a silver Athame was found, but it came out that A Witch would never use an Athame to kill. As no Athame was used to cut life...ever. There are little truths in most shows. Some have less truth then others. I quit watching Charmed years ago. When they got so silly with worlocks and white lighters.

The movie I hated the most was The Craft. It was so wrong, there were things in it that just brought more misunderstanding. Calling on some God that i never heard of and the sea creatures to sacrifice themselves...oh wow, so wrong. Having the snakes was ok, but there was no reason given for those who did not understand the connection with snakes and Witchcraft.

There is a series that i liked by M.R. Sellars. He is a Witch and writes mysteries. They are very good. Of course there are literary license, but like myths his stories are entertainment wrapped around truth.

Starhawk has a couple novels out... The Fifth Sacred Thing and Walking to Mercury. Very good. If you want to know what Witchcraft is get her other books. She does write about her own tradition, but it gives you a good over view of what we are.

Another book that may give you a better understanding of what we are is The Spirit of the Witch, by Raven Grimassi. Subtitled-Religion and Spirituality in Contemporary Witchcraft.

The problem with Witchcraft/Wicca is that it is more boreing then what the books and movies show. lol. There is no levitation, no instant gradification, no hopping on brooms and zipping around...we are normal people who follow a different religion, that happens to have a lot of flakes. The movies and books help that...the people don't know the real from the fantasy. I teach and when students come to me they want Insta-Witch. They don't realize the hard work and the knowledge it takes. When they discover this, most will drop out. But I would rather lose a student then have the Pagan community deal with another fluff.

All very well said, Starhawk. It seems that the vast interest in Witchcraft these days come from shows such as Buffy, Charmed, Harry Potter, etc. But as soon as those people find that true witchcraft isn't anything like that, they are looking for something else.

The media needs to get a grip. The entire world needs to get a grip! I read today that the United States Military discriminates against Wiccans!

The entire reason this country was founded was for freedom of religious choices. Aren't the use of witchcraft and Wiccan beliefs or paganism choices of religion and worship?

Someone said 'godless groups.' I don't see how paganism or Wicca can be compared with a 'godless' group, since both worship the God, the Goddess, and many 'lesser Gods' for want of a better word!

Laurel Yves:

Jesus loves you,
Yeah, yeah, yeah....

Maybe someday we'll have a Pope Ringo!

That would be four popes in a row with names similar to the Beatles -- John 23rd, Paul 6th, John Paul 1, and John Paul 2. The John Paul series is seen as a reaffirmation of commitment to the liturgical changes that were articulated at the Vatican II council, which was begun under John 23rd and completed under Paul 6th.

I always have to laugh when people start in on the name thing. Go pick up a book of baby name meanings sometime. A fair number of modern names are just descriptions in another language. It's pretty much the same thing as fiance vs. betrothed. At some point it was fasionable to use a foreign language version of a word verses the same word in one's own language.

Biblical names have meanings Abraham - hebrew for "Father of a mighty nation", so do names from other cultures. Leroy - from le roi which is french for "the king". MacDougal - son of Dougal or Douglas. I have a normal enough name - which happens to translate to Song Light from the Lorraine Valley. Heck, even plain old John Smith translates into God Is Gracious with a probable ancestor who worked in a Smithy. Blanche and Blanca are both just White in a differnt language. Randall - shield wolf. How about Esther Peregrin? Want to guess what that might mean in English? :)

Apparently, The Dome of the Rock still stands. I should have read the earlier posts...man, you need to get a life.

Jozvez

Dude...are you serious about the Dome of the Rock? Where did you hear this? I actually turned on CNN and it isn't on that news show. This is not funny or an occasion for celebration of it is true...it is very scary and very serious.

Just In:

(((((((( B R E A K I N G ----- N.E.W.S. ))))))))

Afew minutes ago An F15 was deliberately smashed into the AL AQSA "Golden Dome of the Rock" in Jerusalem, Israel.

The death toll is rising and ewe will report on further coverage as it comes in. AND,

"The unHoly "KABBA" in Mecca, Saudi Arabia, was just destroyed by "Exiles" of the "SHAH" PALAHVIs secret Army who smashed a hijacked Saudi Commercial Airline into it and killing around 3,000 people.

Its as though every muslim has gotten a dagger shot in their hearts and or minds. This means that ISLAM is now Dead! People are yelling: Death to Iran!

please Stay tuned for further developments as the reports and the footage comes in. Thank You. This bombing has a similar pattern which could equate to our 911 destruction.

America and friends are singing and dancing with joy in the streets, on their cars, every where. Wow!

Hello THRH et al:

Frank Collins has to have his Pre-Apocalptic religion blinders surgically removed. His Faith is detrimental to his own health.

It's a shame how grown men recite Suras a/k/a/ childrens storys and then enforce them on other mature audiences.

Hell: Its much safer to read HARRY POTTER instead. Ya Ya.

Note: People with Religion can have common sense in everday life. But they will never obtain HEURISTICs which is the common sense of [clear Intelligence] only in Secular thinking Man.

B.O.M.B.S. A.W.A.Y. on Nagasucky &

HiroKoemani. I.R.A.N. a/k/a Fartsy talking Per-

Shia! Ya Ya :=)

Well, at the end of the day Its all going to be

the same SHIATT any way we all look at it. And

there will be nothing SUNNI about it!

Its POOF-TIME Ayatollah and all your Mullah!

Ya Ya. :=)/

I don't know much about Wicca. Is there any accuracy in the Stacey Brown Series, by Laurie Stolarz (Blue is for Nightmares, etc.)? I enjoyed the whole series, including the portrayal of magic.

(Watch out for her new book, Bleed, however. That is a seriously dirty book. Aimed at 14-year-old girls.)

Hi, PAGANPLACE,

Thanks for the definition of "myth". Very nice :-)

And, anyone who thinks Pagan names like Starhawk or any of the rest are categorically pretentious, fluffy, unrealistic, pseudo-Native-American, or otherwise silly, just doesn't know what a lot of the accepted standard European names no one thinks about actually *mean.*

Basically, if it doesn't come from the Bible, chances are it means something just about as 'Native American' as anything else that you might translate into English.

This isn't to say that a lot of Pagan names don't strike even, if not especially a lot of Pagans as rather overblown. (sometimes I think newbies inherit the Christian habit of naming kids after saints in the form of naming themselves after Gods, but, really.

What's always seemed silly to me is going to elementary school and having half the people there named after one of two Beatles or a Beatles song, (along with three Popes in a row named as one or both of said Beatles. :) ) ...all because the culture at large is so petrified of the basilisk's gaze of *small-minded mockery on the playground* that they're afraid to *give their kids anything but one of a tiny selection of fashionable standard-issue *names.**

I mean, *damn.*

Going on eight billion people in the world, and the religion that's supposed to have 'all the answers' can't teach its kids to get over making fun of unfamiliar names.

You got nothing to mock us on on this point. We do it better among ourselves, anyway.

Starhawk's name *means* something. Your fault if you can't be troubled to get it.

Oh, and, Jacob.

You have a brain right now... You're in a world. There's a great deal of stuff in it, and, yes, it connects.

Dude.

It'll be OK.

Shhh. *hugs.*

Hi, Ann. Going back a bit...

"What do you mean when you say "mythic Otherness"? What do you mean by "myth" -- the theological meaning of a truth that is expressed in metaphorical stories? And what is this "Otherness"?

Ann O."

"Myth" is not the dirty word to Pagans that it is to atheists and Christians...

A nice definition is, "A story that may have never happened, but is always true."

Harry Potter isn't some Pagan conspiracy (JK Rowling is actually a Christian) to 'Glorify witchcraft,' which idea Christian fundamentalists often try to turn around and say that having Harry Potter books even *exist* is some kind of unlawful Wiccan religious expression:

But, many of us know all too well what it's like to be locked under the stairs for seeing things a little differently. :)

If there is such a thing, then G-d bless, The Secular Man, and shame to the Pre-Apocalyptic Man.
Greetings my Dear HUMATES on Space-Ship Earth et al:

"Naturally Man Kind Needs Religion and I now give you ECLAT. a.k.a The non-jealous CREATOR of the Flash (Photons) & the Big Bang (Waves) respectfully. Contrary to current scientific theory & ancient Pre-Apocalyptic belief SYSTEM's of your lores from those Epochs.

The Modern "POWERCRATS" & their "VENTRILOQUIST(s)" secondary, tertiary, etc, Are today more SECULAR MINDED than ever before in our HUMATE but superstitious History.

Secularism will "Rule The World" more than can ever be imagined or experienced today.

This is OUR REALITY (a/k/a/ TRANSFINITY, your motion in TIME as a PHOTON & WAVE, via the Eclati in you, which is ETERNITY AVOIDING LONLINESS in ALL Animate & in All Inanimate creatures & Things!

This is True MIRACLE. This is true LOVE. This is True Justice and there is NO SUCH THING as SIN, here on your Space-Ship Momma Earth!

Note: We came from the MAGMA-Triculation. And The observer of Our History is our best Jury, forever.

Praise The ECLAT and the Eclati in me:

Oh yes, Praise My Un-jealous-Lord, my Almighty HOLY HEARBEAT that is "My Appearance" in our Cosmic-Atomic-Chemical "Universe" as your real-Constitution, and the LAWS of your PHOTOFINITE ESSENCE resulted in my UN-Sinful Carbonized & Microbial LIFE form, NOW!

Wherefore: SCIENCE, and NOT your ancient Pre-Apocalyptic UN-Science belief Systems, is the undeniable reality, which is saving mankind from their own HEURISTIC selves.

There will be a TIME when ALL HOLOCAUSTS will end.

Today There is a NEW SONG circulating on our Space-Ship Earth. IT (g-d ITSELF in ALL) is a Secular Philosophy that is destined to "over-write" ALL your OLD [false religion] SONGs.

This means that all Abrahamic & Gita or Vedic faiths et al, is bad vibes for The SECULAR Minded MAN. Not to mention how HEURITICALLY insulting they have become to SPACEFORTH Thinkers today & beyond!

ECLAT is an IT and IT is ITSELF in YOU. And this essence of the ECLATi in you, is neither A Man nor a SHE!

Today our National Leader(s) [Europe, USA, Russia, China, Japan etc..) all Thinks in terms of our "Space-Forth" Activities.

And at the same time, today Modern SECULAR-MAN, not Cave Men, rule Space-Ship Mother Earth.

Weather the British was in Iraq for decades in the past or France was in Vietnam or the West Indian Tea or Trading Company in Asia Major, Minor et al , is something that the USA always seems to inherit or finds itself when those nations cannot control their changed society's. For Better or Worse.

In Iraq today or Afghanistan and else where, or like fighting the China backed “Communistic” thinkers in Viet Nam, Man kind in the future [400 years o so], will look back & see that all that effort was not in vain or for naught. Ya Ya.

Note: In the USA, more young potential MEAT, die from “Car Accidents” then in Iraq, Afgan, Nam, etc...

Because we [USA], an E.C.L.A.T.A.R.I.A.N. thinking Nation with a Secular Constitution, is simply and "Futuruistically helping" those war faring & war fearing Nomads to change for the better and never for worse. They cannot see a brighter future because they are selfish * religiously polluted, Thus their HEURISTICS has not genetically and environmentally evolved yet in their futurization of their secular thinking.

Even if WE drop Atomic Bomb(s) there, this will only be for their own good. Example: Japan it turns out, benefited from both the Hiroshima & Nagasaki APOCALYPSE (revelation). Today Japan is the "Rich Man of ASIA" in a Major way.

I would like to see a United IRAN-AFGAN-PAKISTAN.

I would like to see a United Arab Middle-East (includes Israel).

I would like to see a United States of African.

I would like to see Turkey Unite with all the "ISTANS" nations. (includes Georgia, Kurdistan etc. ).

I would like to see a United Europe with Russia.

I would like to see a United Main Land China (Not with the Island Taiwan etc... ).

I would like to see a United States of South America (South of Panama).

I would like to see a United North America (Includes Mexico et al) with additional Stars on our Flag.

But earth was not built in a day. And Secular minds visualize, not biblically, but Scientifically that Mother Earth is one Small space-Ship and She will one day go POOF-TIME and will be no more in 7 billion years from what you are witnessing Todays acts that will usher us into ONE-World-Government Tomorrow.

And Yes, TIME (Temperature) is the only best medicine that HUMATES have & not just Natural resources."

This is inevitable and sure as "Vanilla Ice Cream & Apple Pie."!

Note: We will have a "Cashless Society" and Passports will slowly go the way of all our current known PRE-Apocalyptic religions & their SYSTEMS.

Yes all in good TIME. Not like in your everyday clock time, sorry.

Scientist now are beginning to understand IT in this TIME. And the Pre-Apocalyptic believer cannot see nor understand this fact of our own very stuff & things. Ya Ya.

BEHOLD: "This sayest the ECLAT of the Universe & from the EclaTi of my ME ME" And Thank You, ECLATi in this TRANSFINITY (Your Reality in Place of the TIME machine). Ya Ya.

“Let it be said, and let it be remembered, not just written via your Cosmic Holy heartbeat via your Nature given Heuristics! There is LIFE in those PHOTONS. Ya Ya.

S.H.O.L.O.M. From The "SHILOH" W.O.R.L.D.s and say Good bye to todays ancient Religions of lore. And because TRANSFINITE DEATH is not ordinary BIOFINITE, mist DEATH, hence; WE NEVER DIE! Oh Ya Ya. And praise the Eclati of the ME ME in me, You & ALL.

AND Not in ANY of what Mr. MOSES novelized about [morality], Nor JESUS, MAZDA, MOHAMMAD, KRISHNA and BUDHA him or her self, et al.

This Includes ANY: of the PAGAN, WICCA, VOODOO, SHAMA and other Pre-Apocalyptic belief, faiths or ancient religious caveman superstitious Systems AND their Pre-Apocalyptic Practices via SYMBOLIC display.

:=). Eeeeeeeee Haaaaaa , What a Beautiful Life indeed , IT is MIRACLE and that is ALL folks. Praise my Lord Eclati!

Terra Gazelle: "Experiential spiritual path may sound good...but that's not protected by the First Ammendment.

Unfortunatly."

You know, we could make the case that it is, since all religious expereinces are ultimately individual experiences, even among like-minded mainstream believers. Ask any two Christians to describe thier moment of salvation - you won't get the same story twice. Ask any two members of the same church for their impressions of the sermon on any given Sunday and you will get different responses. Ask any two Unitarians anything at all and you'll get at least 5 different answers. (It's one of the things I love about them).

To Wiccan and Terra (or anyone else):

How do you feel when you see how the media portrays Wicca or witches? The only examples I've see are from shows like Charmed, Buffy etc, or movies like Witches of Eastwick. Is there anything in those more popular venues that is the least bit credible to your beliefs/actions? Is there a show, movie or book etc out there that you feel does a good job at portraying your religion?

I. ((have)) to ADMIT...

> a(LOT) of SELFcontROL to not
post
T.H.A.T.
a la
Ja(Cob)

He cracks me up, and he does make sense...sometimes.

RealityCheck:

What is a godless pagan? I've never met one. I am pagan and have many gods, goddesses, and other deities.

Terra Gazelle

You said

"How do you know you exist? I know my Gods do. They are not people floating around wearing toga's...they are within and in the air I breathe as well as the wheat and corn and the berries I eat.They are in the sunset and the riseing moon...they are in the past and future... Call them energies...but when I light my candles and incense and I am invoking them at my altar...I know they are as real as my husband, my daughter or anything else. "

I can see how such a worldview could give significant meaning to those who identify themselves as wiccans/pagans. I believe in such energies but I beleive they extend from Jesus Christ. Either way, they are beautiful to be experienced and reading your words was a nice breath of fresh air.

Experiential spiritual path may sound good...but that's not protected by the First Ammendment.

Unfortunatly.

Ann O.-

What a nice thing to say. You're pretty gentle and polite youtself. I can't speak for other Wiccans, but I find as I get older that very few things are worth getting nasty about. In a forum like this, either people are open to new ideas, and the best way to present them is politely; or their minds are closed, and there's no sense in getting upset.

Chris-

What a great way to describe Wicca: as an "experiential spiritual path". Blessed Be on your journey.

Helena - I wasn't judging anyone else's choices, just admitting to a hang-up I have, which may be a partial explanation for why witches in this society aren't always taken seriously. I agree it's better than thinking you're in league with evil. Also, you would probably find that anyone whose relationship with [fill in whichever spiritual power you want] is secure finds a lot of humor, imagination and fun in it as well. It's been my experience that even the more emotionally mature atheists find more humor than outrage in the rituals we follow.
Chris - Your mystical experience may be unexplainable -- I think that's in the nature of all mysticism -- but it is certainly recognizable. And from what I know of Ann O, I'd venture she understands more than you think.
Wiccan: "Viejita" is Spanish and quite unromantic in meaning.

Those with a problem with our names...
You who are Catholic, ever know a nun with a name like Sister Mark Andrew? Do you think her name was Mark Andrew? They named themselves after saints...do you think they were saints? Or did they want those attributes that those saints had? They also wore black robes...but when you see one of us wearing our robes and capes, you choose to make fun instead of seeing a religious being walking their path to God/dess.There is a reason for black, and it has nothing to do with being scary, or evil.

When we take a name it means something...sure there are those Lady Dragon Silverbutt names. They are newbies. When I take on a student the first thing I do is take away the Lady title, and give them a student name...The title Lady or Lord means something and is not part of a name. It is earned over many years, a taking on of responcibility and knowledge.

My student name was Gazelle because of what my teacher saw in me. I have a "public" name, I also have a religious name. This is not a fun little name, but meaningful between my deities and myself.

There are many reasons we take other names. One is that for some of us, if we were outted as Witches with our birthnames, this could lead to discrimination and alot of problems. There is also that we ARE a nature religion and many will take names that reflect those parts of nature that reflect us. When a native American does that and is given a name such as Little Bear, no one makes fun or belittles him.

Ann O.

I can be very not polite. I strive to be, but fail often.
We strive for harmony and balance and we also believe that each person is on their own path. They have their own learning curve and will learn their lessons eventually.
We usually try to reason things out. When you face people screaming at you, being called insulting names because you happen to be wearing your religious emblem, there is nothing to be gained to scream and insult back. I usually smile and say thank you when called a Witch. It puzzles them that I am not being hateful and they have no idea why I would like the name Witch.And drives them crazy...; )

Wicca is a different religion...not a bad religion, or a weird religion, it is simply different. Such as Buddhism is different from Baptist. Neither Buddhism or Baptist are wrong...just different, with a different world view. We see things different, maybe in many ways we see more dimensions. It's not all black and white, we see what is inbetween.

We enjoy play...and we also see the real. We know that there are times we are silly, but there is also a reason for that...we are to have Mirth and reverence as well as Honor and humility. We are not to set out to harm others, but seek ways to not harm. We also have the right to protect ourselves, hopefully without harming others, but we know our actions are our responcibility. No devil to blame.

So we take our actions and words serious. Words have power and an action is like a pebble in a pond. Each action or word is a ripple that affects the surface of that pond and the undernieth, even the sand and pebbles under the pond will shift and move...so do our actions and words create shifts, it is our responcibility if harm is caused.

While we are not "Saints," but only human and we do get angry, saying and doing things we should not..we reach for walking in peace and balance. Maybe that striving helps a little....

Liesuresuitebruce: Starhawk was Starhawk back in 1979 when she published the first edition of Spiraldance. All the people since who have adopted the name Starhawk just confuse me. I haven't decided on a magickal name yet, but I want one that will be unique so that I don't get confused with someone else.

Jacob: Go troll somewhere else. Too bad this forum doesn't have a Captcha to eliminate the bots.

Ann O: You're probably long gone from this forum, but hopefully someone else will benefit from this explanation of "mythic otherness." Unlike monotheistic patriarchal religions that are written down and who’s parishioners are preached at until they “get it.” Wicca, paganism, Goddess spirituality or Women’s Mysteries are experiential spiritual paths. I’m sorry, but I can’t explain “mythic otherness.” You have to experience it to even begin to understand. This can be performed at a renaissance festival, at a Sabbat or Wiccan ritual, or simply from ecstatic drumming. It has been said that the concept of God(dess) came out of ecstatic dance, drumming, or singing in which the energy built up by the common goal of the group activity seemed otherworldly and bigger than any one of the individual participants. This begins to touch on the surface of the idea of “mythic otherness.”

Hi, Witches,

The thing I really like about you all is your politeness and gentleness. When the list began there were many more insults flying than there are now, but you witches remained polite. You really helped the list to become more civil!

What is it in your teachings that help you to be so polite? Sure, all (or most) religions teach us to be polite, but you must have some sort of emphasis or teaching that the rest of us could learn from. Do you emphasize harmony? Or what? Or did this list just luck out and get some particularly polite Wiccans?

I suspect that the reason most of us are afraid of witches deep down in our cultural selves is largely because of the image of the "witch" in The Wizard of Oz. The image is simply indelible. The only solution is to find a new meaning for the word. The witches on this list are helping us with that, so thanks.

Ann O.

Dear Pretty Pretty Princess Starhawk

Your point is taken regarding the misconception of wicca and paganism. As an atheist, I also feel misunderstood.

Some advice where it was not requested. Those cutsey little monikers worthy of a Trekkie convention really should be omitted when conversing with us non role-playing outsiders.

Someone who introduces himself as 'His Most High Woshipfull Holy Eminence Father Larry', may have his ring kissed by his flock. But the most he's gonna get from hte rest of us who do not buy into the title, is an eyeroll, a handshake, and a 'Hi Larry'. And everything he says after that will be tempered by our thoughts of 'self important blowhard'.

We hear you better when you can cut the shiboleth and talk to outsiders in a more generic manner. On the other hand, kudos for not adopting the over-used Rayvenwolfe.

Signed
He Who Looks Better in Polyester and is More Manly Than All Other Men LeisureSuitBruce

Well.
As far as Wiccan names go, that ties into Starhawk's point that our religion isn't often taken seriously. A magickal name is supposed to represent who you truly are, yet it seems most Pagans choose theirs out of a misguided sense of glamour. How likely are you to respect someone who calls themself High Priestess Shadow CrystalDragon or Lord Wolfblade**?

On misrepresentation: I'd much rather deal with someone who believes that I can wave a magic wand and turn them into a platypus than with someone who believes I've made a pact with the Devil. The first group you can educate, or at least joke with; the second group you can only avoid.

I say bravo to Harry Potter, for though he may propagate an unrealistic image of magic, he's also taught multiple generations that magic isn't to be feared, and in fact can be a force for good. That's a powerful platform for us to build on.

**I am not making these names up. I wish I were.

Dear Veijita Del Oeste,
why religion should not be humorous and why pagan self-identification should not be allowed to show for e.g. by re-naming ourselves? Magical and mystical connotations are certainly not obvious for outsiders, but this is their problem, not ours. Any word, a name is a charm.

The common, western concept of a religious leader is excluding women, imagination and fun. I would guess the serious aesthetic problems of the mainstream is merely prejudice.

Two things -

First, I find the Wican perspective every bit as "real" as the Christian and perhaps more in harmony with the world around us.

Two - I think Jacob has been using some really fine herbs - stuff that good, he really should share. His posts remind me of the crazed prophet in "Life of Brian".

Blessings on you, Terra. You nailed it; Jacob is like reading Russian. I know I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but trying to understand Jacob made me feel really dull.

Viejita, your aethetic problems with Wiccan names made me grin. "Vegita" is the name of a popular character in Japanese anime. You don't seem to share his traits, tho. :)

Wiccans seem to hold perfectly acceptable views on spiritual matters -- views that are probably more common in society than anyone admits. We should all endeavor to practice the kind of open-minded and tolerance they profess. As someone who lived through the hippie era, though, I confess to having serious aesthetic problems with Wiccan culture. For instance, using "Starhawk" as a given name...

Wiccan,

I can not help you with jacob, I am afraid I always feel I am not getting all the vowels or something when I read him. Like reading Russian.

It is annoying.

Jacob...Please, please, stop..you give me a headache.

Reality Check- Do you know where the word Witch comes from? Do you know what a Witch is? Explain that to me, and I will tell you where it came from and what Witch is. It is not in the dictionary...

BGone-How do you know you exist? I know my Gods do. They are not people floating around wearing toga's...they are within and in the air I breathe as well as the wheat and corn and the berries I eat.They are in the sunset and the riseing moon...they are in the past and future... Call them energies...but when I light my candles and incense and I am invoking them at my altar...I know they are as real as my husband, my daughter or anything else.

You do not have to believe. We are not forceing you to, but please stop insulting those who do. This is the one place here for Pagans..Starhawk was invited to write on the Pagan perspective. Every time she writes her beautiful words you and others seem to take joy in putting them down.The rest of the forum is for all kinds of religions...a few for Athists. I do not go on any of those other forums and say a thing against any of those other religions, I do not think it is polite or neccessary to do so. Why do atheists think it is ok to come here and insult us?
Our belief does not pick your pocket or break your bones.

terra

B.G.O.N.E. , Wiccan et aL:

I JUST GOT DONE WITH the "Seder" or the "Dinner Celebration" of the succesful Escaped "Convicts" like MOSES et al. Vamping out, in a hurry, from both the "PHAROAh" & his Son (both Wicca & idol worshiper via Pyramids & in old Mecca (a/k/a new Kabba in new Mecca) and out of Egtpt with true Warriors , around the Ramasi's Dynasty. Or +/- 3,500 many tears & years ago, and since by the HEBREWS, and Not the "Jews"!

BGONE et al: Yes, I've had two (2) "Near death Experiences" a/k/a NDE's in both under 10 nyears old. Interseting. But I can never forget what I experienced, live in reality, and have been trying to make "Selfish" mankind see their place in the PHOTOFINITY as being in the mist or ESSENCE of TIME! Note: BDE's time is NOT "yopur ordinary clock time on Spave-Ship Momma Earth et al!"

BGONE et al: Suppose I told that I know exactly how you look. Suppose I told you how I know your Great & Great Grand Parents. Suppose I can tell you what will be in 400 years plus for our American posterity & Beyond. Suppose Bgone...!?

This T.R.A.N.S.F.I.N.I.T.Y of our Miracle sELVES(Reality) is NOT your "Star Wars" series of Movies via Mr. LUCAS OR MR. Spielberg et al imaginary "genius" FILMS makers.

No my Eclati-On, my Mr. or Mrs. Cyber friend? Or reality friend?

I'm a little tipsy now, after this reluctant Sadar of which I participated out of respect.

But I will continued this PROPHECY that the ECLAT expounds in order to usher-In, a "NEW Prophecy," and of who's TIME of Temperature have come as prophecy of the APOCALYPSE NOW!. Ya Ya FRIEND, Et al. :=)' " We have arrived BEGONE et al on Spave-Ship Momma Earth. You will see IT (Eclat-i) in future awareness of the NEW SONG. Ya Ya.

IT (LORD G-d Eclati) with "S.h.i.l.o.h. is "N.O.W." in this PHOTO FINITY Miracle of youself & beyond.

THANK YOU Lord ECLATi for ALL OUR Photonic HUMATES! Past, Now & in Future miracles DUE-TO-BE. Ya Ya! :=).

Me thinks Jacob has noticed there is a lot of money in religion, all flavors of religion, and they have tax advantages.

He's had 2 NDE's. Maybe the last one took.