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I'm truly impressed with all the religious intolerance in USA. I don't hate christians, but religious fanatics shouldn't be allowed to live. Personaly, I'm agnostic, but I have more affinities with pagan and dharmic religions that abrahamic ones

Thank you Starhawk and Terra,

I have come across prejudice for mentioning abuse done to me by catholic priests,and for saying to a counselor that I felt proud too see women at a Lilith event sponsoring breast cancer research.This was at a womens shelter.The 1st incidence happened after going to this event and then later while discussing with the counselor that was assigned to me, other matters regarding me staying there.I mentioned what a wonderful day I had experienced at this event.She looked at me strangely and said she was upset because she had gone also with her daughter.She said she was terribly insulted that they did not list it as a Lesbian event.I did not see it as a Lesbian event only.I told her that I felt comfortable there and enjoyed the music very much.She looked at me very disappointingly and said she wouldn't have gone there if she had known. She made it obvious that she was refering to her Christian beliefs. I told her that I felt women and men that are not heterosexual have the capacity to be just as spiritual and creative with whatever spiritual path, religon or non-religon that they chooce to take part in.She was very cold to me after that.
They exited me for not doing 3 chores after doing my dailey 2 chores and extra 1 hr worth of chores weekly.They wanted me to sign a behavioral contract for missing 3 chores in a period 5-6 months, when I had been doing 1 hrs worth of extra chores every week. I questioned this and asked why were they making me sign a behavioral contract. She said we can apply the rules any way we chooce.I missed signing the behavioral contract because I was working and could not get there on time.I tried to reschedule but they chooce to exit me anyways.When she called me into her office and told me I was shocked,as I had met every requirement requested of me while staying there except for missing 3 chores,regardless of the extra 1hr worth of chores done every week.I asked to see my chart.She was very surprised that I requested that and had little choice but to show me since it was laying open in front of me on her desk.In the chart was the reporting of me missing 3 chores and missing the signing of the behavioral contract and a letter.It was from a Catholic organization, written by the woman who was in charge of volunteer services.While staying at this shelter I had quietly,nonthreateningly and without anger told this woman 2 sentences.I had asked her what organization was she with and she said the Holy Cross church. I told her in a quiet voice that I had been raped by catholic priests that were from a church called holy cross.She coldly (fearfully) looked at me and said that they had only been there for 7 years.I explained to her that this happened to me in another state when I was a child.She did not respond at all so I took it that she didn't want to continue the conservation so I walked away.My intention was some kind of reassurance that they were doing everything they could to stop this terrible atrocitiy that is still being done to children.To see some kind of compassion for me and anger at the allowing of these priests to remain priests.Instead in her letter she wrote that I had been extremely abusive and that they would not be offering there services there while I remained there at the shelter.What these good catholic and christian women did was basically throw me out unto the streets to be homeless because I was brave enough to say something. Her letter was a lie.I should have asked for a copy of it but I was so upset I just started crying,Later I went back and asked for them to give me my records, they said I had to make an appointment,then I was told in a phone conversation that they would mail them to me.They never did.At another womens shelter they asked my religous orientation,I told them that I worshipped the Goddess Religion.They told me that in order to stay there I would have to accept christ.I would have to take there christ classes.I asked if I could ask questions while taking the classes and they looked at me and said no.I told them I could not say I was christian and disregard my own beliefs.One of the women who was the director of this shelter had also gone through sexual abuse as a child.It did not bother her to turn me away.While I was at the one shelter that I was thrown out of,I was working as a medical assistant.I had to change work spaces with another employee.On the computer was a bible quote.I took it off and handed it to her. I was not rude or hostile.She wouldn't take it.She said no you leave it on yours.I told her I did not want it.She looked at me as if I was some kind of terrible person for not wanting her bible quote on the computer in my workspace.I told her I was not a Christian.Everyone there saw her hostile actions towards me.I was called into the managers office .This employee had complained that I had been prejudice towards her.I told exactly what had happened.The manager wanted me to say more.I just looked at her and said I was not acting in a prejudice way and would not back down and admit that I had contributed to the situation.I lasted there another 3 momths before leaving.If you keep your mouth shut and don't say anything they don't really bother you in such overt prejudicial actions but if you chooce to, be prepared.I understand how it feels to be hurt so terribly from violence and cruelty done by people that hold the book they call the bible in their hands and not feel you have any protection or justice.My heart goes out to any person who has suffered from this type of viciosness and hypocrisy.A lot of their so-called leaders and people in thier institutions really belong in jail.

zkngw slpiteb nvzjfig uqiwy iytsc ahjti lmau

In the UK, I get to vote as a British citizen and over 18. What is the criteria for voting in the USA? Is the fiasco in Florida a warning sign? Is the process generally trustworthy?

If you put a bowl of food down, the cats tend to go in the same direction, and large cats (eg lions) tend to cooperate when hunting. (They haven't shared the housekeeping fairly, gender-wise, yet though...)

Use their game and vote them out of office, or present your own candidate. You could also deal with Kyoto, Alternative Energy and all the other issues at the same time. (Broadening the agenda may broaden the support, as well.) We have the 'grey vote' in the UK, with the proportion of retired, who tend to be quite vocal (lobbying, and so on), and they have been pretty successful.

Those who are intending to write future 'DIY' books, might wish to include StarHawk's homepage, additional to any other relevant websites (eg WashingtonPost's). The books are popular and they are selling, and they may help to herd the cats...

How about a more reassuring anecdote?

I was sat on a bench near some trees, having a quiet smoke, with rare sunshine, and I was trying to enjoy the sound of the birds twittering away. An Evangelical female preacher was standing nearby, giving me a headache with the public sermon, and drawing mixed responses from passersby. (I had no visible symbols, and was not the target. It was just a general sermon.) Shortly afterwards, a plain-clothes police officer showed up, consulted HQ and then warned the Preacher to move on. Which was obeyed. Such sermons are seen as a public nuisance. So, even the smallest person can make changes, when prodding buttock. Someone had made a complaint. (They are still allowed to do their song-and-dance routine in their churches, behind closed-doors, which I consider more dangerous than when they are visible. However, other groups that incite violence have been secretly filmed doing so.)

And, gun-crime in this country is getting considerably more serious. We don't have the Amendment to bear arms, and the Govt is trying to reduce the number of weapons in circulation.

Blessed Be

You know it really irks me about how much we, pagans & wiccans, are considered non-traditional. Our religion has been around longer than any other religion out there. Alot of religions have stemed off of Pagan beliefs. Before the insiquition, the christians took the pentacle and used it as a symbol for the 5 wonds of Jesus. They have took our winter solstice and turned it into a christian holiday called Christmas. Alot of the holiday's there are is just a Pagan/Wiccan holiday wrapped in a christian bow. I know I get tired of being afraid to be open about my religion. I can't talk about it at work because I am not suppose to talk about religion or government. But all the time I hear them talking about church activities and so forth. Its not right. We are not non-traditional. We have been here longer than any other religion. We are not "satan worshipers." We don't believe in satan so how can we worship something we don't believe in. And what about seperation of church and state. In the pledge of allegiance it says "One nation under God." Well what about all the other Gods & Goddesses. And at almost any kind of public activty they have prayers to the christian god. At my schools graduation they had a prayer to the christian god. They should stop doing those things and start listening to what our country is suppose to be about. Ok enough of my ranting. But this is what I believe. Its not right that we have to be in the closet with our beliefs when any christian can be open about theirs without the fear of getting fired, threatened, or discriminated. Isn't there something we can do about that?

Deseree

Wicca is a federally recognized religion. If you are--

a. fired from your job;
b. not allowed to place pentagrams on a grave;
c. not allowed your right to worship in prison--

then you have the right to file a discrimination lawsuit.

After reading Starhawk's article and many of the other posts concerning persecution of Pagans, I can't help but think how privileged I am to live in a part of NY State that see precious little discrimination. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but I have never been discriminated against. The closest came when a year and a half ago I had to go into the hospital. Because it was a Catholic hospital, I was asked my religion. When I said I was Wiccan, the gal said, "Oh, so you don't have any religion." I said, "Yes I do. I'm Wiccan." She looked affronted at my assertion, but she didn't press. As to what she actually wrote down on my papers, I have no idea without looking at the records.

I can sympathize with those who have been persecuted. And I am working hard in my own little way to keep the persecution from continuing. I've been out as a Pagan for many years. I had a little "New Age" store for 6 years until some personal tragedies forced me to close up shop. I have taught many different types of seekers, including Mormon missionaries and JW's, about Paganism, what it is and, more importantly, what it isn't. I'm even teaching my brother, a Born-Again, though those lessons are going very slowly. I would have liked to have taught his 6 daughters before they became indoctrinated, but I never got the chance. But there's still time to reverse some of what they've been taught. The oldest girls will be 18 soon and they love their Auntie Cela.

I really like the idea of a Peaceful Pagan Gathering on the Mall in Washington, DC. If only half the estimated Pagans in this country go to such an event It will go a long way to prove that Pagans are a very real force in this country. Who knows, it might even be like when Rev Martin Luther King, Jr spoke at the Lincoln Memorial. Maybe more Pagans will step out of the "broom closet", and just maybe Shrub will get the idea that Wicca and Paganism really is a religion. Though something like that would be a logistical nightmare. But I do wonder...

Just a thought.

I see no confusion between the Wiccan pentacle and the Medal of Honor.

No Liberty Head in the Wiccan Pentacle.
Point UP in the Wiccan Pentacle, down on the MoH.
Circle around Wiccan Pentacle, not on MoH.

Anyone who cannot tell the difference needs some serious eye care, some history lessons, and maybe a brain. Even a Kindergartener could tell the difference between a point up circled star and a point down uncircled star with a head layered on.

I think that that argument would be as bogus as the rest if the VA tried to use it.

First off, I know that discrimination against Pagans is real, substantial, and hurtful, and yet.

I am one of the organizers of the Samhain Drumming Circle at the Jefferson Memorial in Washington, DC, which has been going on under the watchful eye of the National Park Service for more than 10 years.

I live in Laurel, MD, which as a hot bed of absolutely conservative rednecks, nevertheless has a very good Pagan bookstore (Crystal Fox) and the park police have no problem with Wiccans celebrating the holidays along the river park (they clean up after themselves, we never have to worry about it - say the police.)

I am surrounded by a large Hispanic population who recognize a Brujo when they see one, and actually seek us out for counseling.

We just be here.

On the note of the Pentacle and public service, I have taken a look at American iconography. Everywhere in Washington DC, there are pentagrams and pentacles. The national symbolism of the United States is of stars. Sherrifs wear stars, generals wear stars.

The pentacle (reversed, with a liberty head in the center) is the Army Medal of Honor. I think, that perhaps, though they won't admit it, that what we have is not necessarily religious discrimination, but symbolic confusion. The Armed Services already have a pentacle in use, as a medal of honor. If a soldier were to have that on his or her tombstone, could one tell without looking him up whether it was a Medal of Honor or a Wiccan soldier? The Army Medal of Honor was created in the early 1800s, long before the pentacle became publicly associated with modern-day Witchcraft in public parlance. By heraldic rules laid down in 1300, there have to be three points of difference on a symbol, and we have one, a liberty head, to show a difference, without permission of the first legal party, in this case the United States government. The Armed Forces may truly be guilty of religous discrimination, but legally they may have every precedence in the use of a symbol already displayed in public iconography.

I'd rather us be prepared on a symbolic level to recognize an argument that has nothing to do with religion.

Here's an idea for Pagans who are threatened by Christians:

Bend over and pick a piece of lint off your sock, letting the pistol at your waist push its outline against your coat. Then give them your coldest eye and say, "You might want to pray over that."

Just spent an hour scrolling down and reading all comments on this site. I've hidden my true faith "under a bushel" or "in the closet" for years and years for fear of exactly all the things we've heard happening here. But reading these posts this morning has changed me, and I know what I have to do now. I'm taking my pentacle out of the drawer, placing it on my neck, and I'm never taking it off again. May the Goddess protect me.

I believe the Devine Mother is another way of referring to the Goddess or Pagen religion in our lives. And if we're interested in getting this tired ol' world back on track, perhaps it would be a good idea to honor Her who honors life.............not death and destruction.

Keep on with your tireless journey, Starhawk. You have so much wisdom to share!

Lep!
Yes...PSG..oh my home how I miss thee!
LOL
I will not be going often any more. My group used to meet once a year for a week some where. Like once it was in the Smoky Mountains, we rented a cabin for a week..once it was in a beach house on the Gulf(that blew awayin Katrina), Once it was in Skyline drive; in what turned out to be a haunted ski lodge...lol.. this next time it will be on Snowshoe mountain in W. Virginia. I had to decide what was more important to me..my dear Witchy family or PSG. We have some folks that can not do the camping, so it is my group. Money is finite and no one can have all things.

But I hold PSG, the drum circle and tea dance close to my heart! lol. I am an elder in Patrick McCollum's Wiccan Church...and will miss his teachings..I reccomend his Passing the Magick Class. And oh I will miss Spiral Rythym, morning meeting and Caffina's.

Do I know you by a different ID? how exciting. Will you be going to PSG this year? If so please send some extra good energies into the Mound for me. I will certainly miss the MidSummer Rite and the venders!

Blessed Be!

May the Lady cause flowers to bloom at your feet,

May the Lord hang rainbows above your head,

(and may the pollen leave you be.)

Happy Springtime to all!

Hey, welcome Spring, and blessed be, all.

:)

Terra Gazelle,
I THOUGHT your name sounded familiar. Now I know why. PSG.

Laurie;
First let me apologize for taking so long to rejoin this discussion. Yes, I was living in Norht Georgia at the time and the Police never found out who did it. I feel sorry for all of those that have been hurt, both by Christians and Pagans. I like to think that Pagans are more tolerant but I know that some of us have just had enough and are tired of turing the other cheek, as they are both bleeding.
I have been out of the broom closet for close to 10 years now and have met some of the most understanding Christians in that time. I have also been threatend and insulted and lost a couple of jobs because of it. I have been in more fights than I care to remember because someone took offense of my religion. Yet, I have not learned to keep my head down. I will always be out front about my religion, if one asks. I don't push my religion but I also don't hide it. I have shouldered the burden of being both activist and teacher, and because of that some of my stories about dicrimnation are not of the PG variety. Be Blessed.

Love, Light, and Peace to All.

BTW: For the full stories hit my email: mistrunner@hotmail

Victoria and all...
A Happy and Blessed Equinox..
Happy Spring!

Fia,

As a Wiccan I recognize that you have the right to practice what ever religion you choose. I respect that right...I do not have to like it at all. I do not understand it...How can a Christian also follow a religion who at core is pre Christain? How can you believe in the one son of God which is contrary to the many Gods of Nature? How can you follow a faith that says you can have no other gods before you...yet follow a religion with many gods? How can you belong to a religion that says "suffer a Witch not to live," yet be that Witch? How can you belong to a religion that preaches against us and with torture and death terrorized us, and yet stand under the moon on full moon nights and celebrate the Lady and your connection to Her?

I resent the fact that though so many of us pay for our religion with silence and loneliness...with fear and pain, there are those who will read a book and decide that it sounds like fun...and all of a sudden will call themself a Witch, without the understanding of the deep knowledge that it takes.

Like I said, you have every right to believe as you wish...but like I told someone not that long ago, there comes a time that as you gain knowledge of self and your beliefs, you will face the crossroads and you will have to decide.

We all have had dark nights of doubt, it is part of growth, and you will come face to face with yourself. A connection to God/s is not something to play with..it has nothing to do with what you call yourself..it is who are you and what calls to your soul.

Blessings on your journey,
terra

Starhawk,
Thank you for bringing this Pagan plight into view of so many people. As an active duty military member, I can assure everyone, active and cruel religious discrimination still exists among people in uniform, even though "the military" recognizes the right to the religion of its members. Unfortunately, it's taking longer for some servicemembers to get the word... we're here, we're real and we are not a threat to your religious beliefs!

AzureLunatic Said:

"With that kind of reputation, it's natural for a pagan without many contacts in the Christian community to brace themselves for some kind of impact whenever they hear someone say "I'm Christian." Often enough, it is justified; too many times, that kind of defensive reaction also leads to heightened misunderstandings and an escalation of tensions."
-------------------------------------------------
I think one of the problems, is that when I come out of the broom closet to a Christian, I don't *really* know what's coming.

I know that there are Christians that are understanding. I was raised Christian, and I converted to Witchcraft. My entire family knows my beliefs, and while they don't understand them, they accept them. But I don't *know* which Christians are going to discriminate against me, try to convert me (back), mumble rude things under their breath, make my home and work life difficult, get me fired, or worse. So when I'm defensive, it's more like erring on the side of caution.

I used to work in a place where *everyone* was Christian, and professed it proudly. Even the union reps. Sure, there were probably some Christians there who were understanding, and I could tell which ones were more moderate than others. But I still couldn't risk telling anyone, for the fear that someone who wasn't moderate found out.

I realize some people have a hard time saying that they're Christian, but as a former Christian, I can promise you it's not the same as telling someone that you're a witch. Sometimes I stick with the general "pagan" term - but that's still harder than someone saying that they're a Christian.

Fia:

I understand your points. It seems to me you feel that you haven't been accepted by many Wiccans, because you are a Christian Wiccan. Could you describe what you mean when you say "hateful"? for people who have been beaten, burglarized, and harrassed for their religion, I think they take that word very seriously.

I have a hard time envisioning how you combine a monotheistic and a polytheistic religion. would you be able to describe this? Christianity teaches that there is one god, and one son of god, Jesus Christ. When you say Wiccan, particularly when referring to British Traditional Wiccan (Gardnerian, Alexandrian, etc.) That's not just a vague philosophy - but rather a fairly concise set of practices and beliefs that I can easily see would contradict monotheism.

have a blessed vernal equinox folks

I'm sorry, Fia, you misconstrue what I said.

Wasn't even taking a theological position, just that it's not 'hate' for people who go through all this described above because they *don't* swear by this Jesus to not like it when someone comes along claiming to know more about Wicca in the name of 'Jesus' than Wiccans do...

Any more than it's going to be well-received by people who have a hard time being believed by the world that we *don't* worship Satan to have some Satanist come in and say, 'Some Wiccans do!'

I'm sorry, that's not "hate."

It's just "No."

I don't know if there's any tiny bit of hope in this, but I haven't been threatened with violence for being an atheist in quite a number of years, now. Things seem to be getting better for us.

If atheists can discuss their beliefs without fear, can the pagans be far behind? Here's hoping.

PaganPlace...
Generalized observations are part of the problem. Belittling a person for their personal beliefs is a hateful act, even when coming from an oppressed party. It turns the oppressed into the oppressor...unlike a person like Starhawk who has proven herself to be a truly enlightened and open minded person, devoid of generalized observations and respectful of the individual.
In Peace,
Fia

Mark Eaton,
I am not saying that Pagans here are being put in camps or shot at dawn...but neither are the Christians facing loss of jobs, children or homes because they are Christians.They can worship as often as they want, where they want and no one will interfer with them.

There is a Pagan Gathering in Ohio every year...a wonderful place that every Pagan should go to at least once, PSG. People traveling there can not put any thing on their vehicles like PSG or Bust...Pagans at Play...because it might have brought intruders. In 2004 we had folks flying over and then trying to sneak in with a cameraman. Now when was the last time Pagans were turned at the door of a Church and they flew over taking pictures of Christians in morning meeting?
What was funny, was we were sending off a group to attend the Parliment of World's Religions in Spain. That was the picture that the reporters flew over and got. The following year we said we would put some nice welcong messages on our tent tops.

Discrimination is makeing good people hide their religion for fear of being discriminated against. It is a form of terrorism. Terrorism can be 3000 people killed...and then the whole country afraid of makeing the wrong move just incase. It is one gay man being left to bleed to death on a fence and other gay men then fear being who they are.

Or a Pagan made to leave her home in fear of the harm that could come to her and her son. It's terrorism

This is not taking away the horror of what others are living through...but this , like Pagan said, is America. And all any of us want is our rights, civil and human rights.

The VA says that only those religions not frivolous can be acceptable for a headstone for a fallen soldier.Who says whether a religion is frivolous...the man that has been stalling the applications and changing the rules.

The head of the Faith Based Initative says that Pagans don't know how to be charitable...(laughter) they would not apply if they knew it was for others...(more laughter).

So should we set degrees on discrimination? How bad does it have to get before it is stopped? Should Darfur been stopped before now? Or should everyone there have a story or a nightmare to repeat? How about the Congo? How many dirty diamonds do people with money buy? How much blood was spilled by little kids? When will that be stopped? Why hasn't it been?

The powerless have no power. But even the powerless will reach a point where they make their own.

Oh, and just for the studio audience:

Q.E.D.

Q. E. Mother-lovin- D.

See it?

"P P: When worshipping would it be proper or legal to burn U.S. money at the ALTER if I really and truly thought that by doing so, I would in-turn recieve more money, fortune, luck and have fantacy's come true or if I rub beeds etc...? hey, I like the web site WIKIpedia! SHOLOM FOLKS!"

All very interesting, but, yes, defacing or destroying Federal currency is technically a Federal crime, and, umm... if 'being a Pagan' meant you got all kinds of money, I'd buy you a *day off,* sir, cause, that kind of desire you project on us really has nothing to do with the Goddess or anything like that.

It's just something else you don't want to look at.

Shalom.

You're gonna need it.

" Jacob Jozevz:

Pagon Place: If I was a pagan I would worship the OLD MIGHTY U.S. DOLLAR"

Why let not being Pagan stop you? Doesn't exactly stop anyone else. You could probably do worse than try to, and see where that altar really gets you.

What's distressing you here, sir, really? Is it us? Really?

What would you like?

Ok, though, Jacob, I have to give props for coining the term 'Freudiantly.' Lovely. :)

More: "You're being oppressed? But what about the poor Christians in China?"

What can you say to that, but, "I dunno. Eat your peas. Put the shotgun down. Let's see what we can do, already."

Yeesh.

For example, Fia:

"Note: not too long ago, I read somwwhere that in Greece there is a movement that wants recognition of Paganism and they are now ready to use force in order to get recognition. HOW ABOUT DISCRIMINATION OF THE "SECULAR" Minded?"

How bout it, there, Jacob, whatever you're wound up about.

What you're referrng to is an Orthodox-church government that threatened to "forcibly," (this in a European sense, as in, 'Don't do this') sense, say, 'Don't worship your Gods at the ancient temple.'

Hate to break it to you, but it already came down, and what happened was the cops said, 'Hey, don't do that,' and the Pagans said, 'Umm, sorry, we'll be done in a couple minutes. Remove us if you want the EU on your arse.'

"Forcibly secular?"

What you reading?

How about an Eastern Orthodox guy quoted way at the beginning of this thread? (this is about Wiccans in America, not classical Pagans in Greece who still live under threat of prosecution for talking about their Old Gods, but I still think it pertains:)

As quoted by Terra Gazelle:

"James Clement Taylor, a member of an Eastern Orthodox Church, has commented on the subject of persecution of Wiccans that "these people of Wicca have been terribly slandered by us. They have lost jobs, and homes, and places of business because we have assured others that they worship Satan, which they do not. We have persecuted them..."

Anyway, if thoughts Alexander the Great or any worries about 'secular' Pagan armies takin' over Athens are still keeping you up, be not afraid. We can probably figure this out for ya.

Blessed be. :)

With respect, Fia, if you really read a tenth of this, you wouldn't be calling Pagans 'hateful' cause they don't appreciate someone trying to take what they want out of Wicca (Open source religion, that's fine) ...and then turn around and drag this whole, 'Jesus loves you, don't oppress me by saying that's not in your world' trip in there.

These are people who have often been treated *real* badly under those words. Who have rare occasions to get away from those associations and programmings and are sick of this 'Jesus, Jesus everywhere' thing, and try and open up to Divinity.

Can't even turn on the TV without someone advertising Christian programming ... If a Pagan artist somehow could afford to advertise their work, there, someone would start a *bloody riot.*

It's not *hate,* Fia. *sigh, not if some of us still have anything to say about it, anyway.* It's anger at a boundary violation. Trying to have our own sacred space and having someone coming in punching certain buttons I hope have been well-described earlier in this thread.

And just a generalized observation: "Christian Wiccans" don't get the Wiccan part, and whine when anyone tries to explain it. It's not about the Jesus guy: I've got no problem classing him as 'someone else's demigod, like some respected ancestors'.'

What comes with the name has far more implications than that. And a Wiccan should know.

Period.

So many of these stories grieve me. A cradle Catholic, I am only able to identify as a Christian at this point in my journey due to folks like Matthew Fox, Marcus Borg and other thinking Christians...and also due to the blessing of a church that truly welcomes ALL people...including a few of us who follow Christ as Lord while also loving and serving a Lady. We have a church staff member who practices her own blend of Christianity/Wicca. I have been treated hatefully by Christians and Pagans alike for embracing elements of both paths. I have been told there is "no such thing" as this path I'm on...yet here I am.
For what it's worth, not all Christians think, act and believe alike. There are those among us who respect and appreciate our Pagan Sisters and Brothers.
Blessings to All!
Fia

OK, before we get into the whole deal about: "Well, you think this is bad, look at what ("you") *non-Christians* and Commies in China are doing to *Christians!* So we're the good guys, and you're not 'persecuted,' you're 'treading on the sacred definition of persecution."

This isn't Communist China. This is America.
If there's even a comparison being drawn, we have a problem.

Apples and oranges, in those terms.

When someone says, "Oh, shut up, technicality:"

""Prisons are restrictive about Pagan Clergy - but not because they are Pagan, but because they require visitors to have real ID's that match their stated names. "Sister Crystal Moonbeam" isn't getting in""

Hate to mention this, but 'Sister Mary Aloysius' wasn't born with that name, either. Of *course* Pagan 'churches' should be able to arrange proper ID. That's not what the discrimination there is about.

Yeah, there's some silly things. If there were enough Pagan clergy, no one would be under the misapprehension they *needed* an athame in the joint.

I'd be like. "OK. This.... Is the Mark I *upraised index finger.* The image of the athame has everything to do with what happens when you express power, and you probably wouldn't be *in* here, if you'd gotten that bit sooner. Now. Sacred space..."

That's not really the point. It's about some religions getting state supported programs and state-provided perks for bait, if not compulsion, , while Pagan prisoners are denied even clergy visits or books. I happen to know a few Nordic Pagan clergy who'd like to have a talk with some of these white-supremacist quasi-Pagan groups in there, for instance. 'What you in here for? Assault? So glad you found a couple the Old Gods. Now let's talk about Freyja."

Can't get in, can they?

What I propose, is a little cease-fire in this 'Spiritual War' some people seem to think they're desperately-engaged in against the likes of lil' ol' us.

All 'spiritual warfare' accomplishes is convincing the participants: "I 'shot' at them, now someone has to be the dehumanized enemy."

Well, and possibly teaches 'might would not only make *but define* right,' and a couple other toxic ideas.

Now, that's no kind of example for a 'God Of Love' to set, is it?

Sure doesn't look it, ....Emperor.

Whether you think Lady Liberty is an image of the Lady, a Neoclassical ideal, or a lump of decadent, idolatrous, croissant-eating pretentious French surrender-monkey sheet copper, there's common ground here we could be working on.

How bout we start there.

To the person who believes there is no religious persecution in the USA -

Try living day to day, never knowing if a firebomb is coming in your front window into the room where your children play.

Finding your tires slashed. Your lawn driven through and torn up. Your house windows broken. Spraypaint on your driveway. Repeatedly.

Try being beaten for your beliefs, and having law enforcement blow you off.

Try being raped and terrorized, since you're not really "human" anyway. And knowing the law will do nothing to help you. And living knowing it could come again any day.

Try dealing with being fired from a job, because "the customers" don't like that you're working there. Try have people turn you down for work, saying the position is filled, even though there's a sign in the window that says "hiring" and they start interviewing someone as you are on the way out the door.

Try finding food when you can't find work and the foodbanks are controlled by the churches.

Try visiting a friend who's been worked over by severl people and who is the one who's been hauled off to jail for 72 hours, had his head shaved, and then get him released. Of course, no charges are ever filed against him. But it'll have cost him a rib or two, and his job. And probably his apartment and car for the missed payments.

Try knowing you can never let your children out of your sight, for their own safety.

Try living knowing that someday your kid will come home with black eyes and a bloody nose because it was six on one and they couldn't outrun their pursuers, those good upstanding Christian folks....

No persecution. My ass. Maybe not "official" persecution, but it's the same thing, alive and well in the United States of America.

You are dreaming if you think we have any real freedom at all. It's mob rule here, same as always.

Interesting discussion, many good points, and yes discrimination does exist, but in some cases it is mixed...
Prisons are restrictive about Pagan Clergy - but not because they are Pagan, but because they require visitors to have real ID's that match their stated names. "Sister Crystal Moonbeam" isn't getting in - but "Susan Jones, SS# 123-45-6789," (with a drivers lisence to prove it) will have little difficulty... (My GF's former coven did prison work)

Theoretically religion isn't supposed to enter into child custody cases - but if the parents are engaging in practices that are questionable, then saying they are "Pagan religious practices" does not mean the courts are discriminating when they take the kids away from a parent that brings them to a skyclad Gardnerian ritual, or does other things considered "abusive"...

While there are certainly cases of discrimination, I would avoid jumping to the conclusion that all such claimed cases really are. Before jumping, get as many facts as possible from both sides, and ask if there might be good reason without the religious angle...

"Sometimes its the appearance of militancy that counts, not actually pulling a trigger. "Don't Tread On Me" is a better motto than "Well, if you say so." Just an opinion.

Arion the Blue"

Maybe it's the appearance of the *word* 'militancy' that's bothersome, Arion. Just that 'siege mentalities' can be kind of seductive to many, and kind of counterproductive in a lot of ways. One of the intentions of hate-speech is to terrorize communities into isolation and invisibility.

I've spent some nights up with the household shotgun, myself, when I lived in a 'Red State.' But I do caution about the false sense of security (or insecurity) guns can engender.

Then again, in some places, it seems people think *not* having a gun means you're some 'liberal threat to their way of life,' or some such. It all depends on the situation, but I caution against the word, if not the idea, of 'militancy.'

'Don't tread on me,' ...sure. In some places, a household being a prickly pear, (more often thanks to our, umm, Renfaire gear, in my case,) rather than an easy target, can make people think twice, which is thankfully enough times for most to think *better.* Or maybe just to pass out drunk before acting out their 'plans.' That works, too. :)

I guess that gets down to the poverty thing again. What people say from the comfort of their churches and middle-class lifestyles: "Oh, no, this doesn't lead to oppression, it's *loooove,* when we say: ...Read this 'Word Of God' which does in fact have words in there saying "Kill these people and be saved from your distresses," """

Well, what trickles down to the underclasses ain't always so comfily-abstract. Very different world than I happen to know many Christians imagine of their 'missionary work' in the cities. Especially for the kids who end up there cause they were abused and cast out, in the name of 'proper morality' and 'saving them from Hell,' cause of their beliefs, their way of seeing the world, their sexual orientations, or just cause someone got mean.

Common humanity is what keeps these environments *together,* really, in the main, with surprising dignity and nobility among stuff most look away from, but dogma and fear and superstition, fuelled by certain divisive agendas, also can lead to fears and incidents of violence, and a lot of what we so-reasonably discuss on the Internet looks *very* different from there.

A lot of the 'all-healing message' (mostly designed for the relatively-comfortable, if discontent parts of society) that some so confidently insist cures all ills, maps out very differently for those who live in the shadows. Often talked about and preached *to,* but rarely actually *listened* to. I think they should be *heard,* more. I think it shows an awful lot about what some of these 'messages' we debate about *really* do to the human mind and soul.

Not just those with little to lose: cause everyone probably has a part of their mind like that.

If you *really, really* listen, that is.

With real fearlessness, that is.

Y Gwir Y Erbin Byd.

That means, among other things... Watch the siege mentality. :)

I've seen what this whole process spits out, and what grows there, well, way before this 'culture war' really came to a head. Heard everything from, 'You're a good Witch,' (from people more or less used to urban spirit-workers,) to, 'You must be an angel.' (from people convinced that being schizotypal meant they were 'demon-oppressed' because of insufficient Christian piety on the part of the world at large.)

Somehow folks more or less got along, particularly considering the circumstances.

Yeah, some of the best Pagan rituals I've ever been to ...(and to me, possibly the sentimental fave) were among dispossessed Pagan people hiding out, doing the best we could. Preachers would come to our door screaming, 'Give us money to pretend to send you to Hell, you greedy infidels!' 'Hey, we don't have much, and don't much care to. And we know plenty of hungry people personally. Would you like to inspect?'

Couldn't help but notice, 'Gee, this is like the tale of the Early Christians.' Guess I was kind of on the run from some folks who were professedly very much 'concerned for my soul' at the time, myself.

Guess maybe fifteen hundred years later, we could draw one of two conclusions: a) It's not really about theology or a litany of martyrdoms, or b) Hey! Let's do this again! You guys get to be Rome. What fun! Are those Crusades too distracting, though? We're good. :)

Now that everyone here is nice and comfy, maybe we could learn from *that,* too.

People that defame or come after us, or other minorities, in the name of 'morality,' ...well, I have to ask, 'Priorities, there, Padre?'

On the Internet, I have to ask, when people blithely presume merely assuring people that whatever is in the Bible is goodness, ....ever been shot at? ;)

I would like to point out that real "persecution" looks like the Holocaust or what is currently happening to Christians in China, Turkey, or nearly any Muslim-controlled country in the world. You are jailed and perhaps killed simply for your beliefs.

If anyone in the West says there is persecution here, it is a load of crap. Not that what we have is painless or should be tolerated. It should never be tolerated. But, we should be reminded what "persecution" really is and perhaps we should describe what occurs in the West as something else.

We're not Wiccan, but we're close enough that we're often lumped into that category. Let me tell you my experiences, in flashback form, of living in the bible belt in a town of about a quarter of a million people.

My child could not celebrate Halloween at her school - it was "a satanist holiday" and that was expounded by her teachers in front of the class, and by the principal on the loudspeaker.

They did insist on celebrating Christmas, complete with nativity pagent. In a public school. Complete with "why don't you want to be in the school play?" and the attendant fallout. Including the "expected donation by parents" to cover the expense. And the follow up phone calls when the donation was not sent in, not counting the hassle given to my child who had to give them the note in the envelope they so graciously provided for the purpose of sending the funds in.

Halloween was officially "moved" to another day, if not cancelled entirely, if it happened to fall on a Sunday. Christmas was never moved. Not Easter, either.

People literally screamed at my daughter, when she was six, that she was participating in a satanist ritual and going to hell when she rang their doorbell for candy and held out her little candy-sack, dressed as a Ninja turtle. (It might have been the year she was dressed as a pirate.) One needn't have opened the door if.... She was in first grade, I think. First grade.

Literature in the public libary and on the shelves of booksellers was subject to picketing and vandalism by local fundamentalist christian groups who didn't like it. Rather than buying it and, thus, taking it out of circulation they'd just grab it from the shelves and publically rip it up, congratulating each other as they did. Much to the delight of the local newspaper, who'd run a picture of it on the front page. (Kristallnacht? Whut's that?)The local sheriff would come slap them on the wrist then go have supper with the perps over at the Fellowship Hall.

Hence, we had to order our reading material and have it shipped through the mail. We were constantly on edge that the shipper wouldn't wrap it well enough to cover the titles and that the mailman would turn out to be one of those crazy types. This was general literature, nothing new-age. I had to read some Russian translations for school. I was waiting for "commie" to be tacked onto our designation.

There were "blue laws" that kept us from shopping on Sundays, because we were supposed to be in church or reading the bible. Most shops were closed on Sundays for the same reason. We couldn't see a doctor or get a prescription filled on a Sunday. There was no daycare, either.

We were constantly beset by people asking "have you found your church home" at our door (at least two a month, on slow months) and unleashed a nasty stream of notes, letters, and confrontations at our home, the local grocery store, and on the sidewalk by our library when we told the last of that batch that we were not christian, had our own beliefs, and wanted nothing to do with their particular group, "thank you very much, anyway."

You haven't had a good time until someone comes up and tells your five-year-old, who's toodling around on a tricycle outside your home, that her mommy is a sinner and that she's going to hell for not "believing" and would suffer horrible tortures for all eternity there. Good old christians, putting a shy little five-year-old girl into hysterics to further their faith. Nice touch there, folks.

It's noticed when you're the only elementary school kid who's not in church on Wednesday nights, or who doesn't have stories of vacation bible school to tell when the teacher asks about them specifically after school starts in the fall.

Most kids don't care. It's their parents who sit around and gossip and spread nasty talk, and encourage by their behavior that same thing in their children. And children can be damned cruel.

Teachers and administrators did nothing other than say "well, you have to expect that kind of thing" when you're not "like us". (Almost a verbatim quote there.)

We had to sit through christian prayers at the start of almost every public gathering - sports events, city council meetings, girl scout meetings, community charity runs. (Nobody ever asked what our prayers are, if we had any, or if we minded - it was "their" school, "their" community, etc. - Looks like they were firm believers in "might makes right.")

Fortunately, we had no pets. I'm convinced if we'd had a dog we'd have come home to find it hurt, or worse, there. The car was vandalized a few times, right after confrontations, but I can't prove who did it. The coincidences and timing was kind of damning, though.

That's just from a four-year stint, in the '90s. I could relay much worse from the past, but prefer to let those memories rot into oblivion as nothing good would come of dredging them back up.

My experience is that a lot of professed christians ... aren't.

The examples here are terrible, but I don't want the people who are reading this page to think that the prejudice against pagans is always this specific. It's not one or two acts against individuals by extremists; it's a constant and widespread prejudice, and yes it's international.

We're not free to state what our religion is to co-workers (or sometimes even family), or wear a symbol that represents our path, or do many of the things that should be protected by "freedom of religion".

Modern neopaganism (and most of what is now called 'Wicca') is about as different and dangerous as Buddhism. The word 'witch' has inescapable negative meanings, but that doesn't affect whether a person's practices would actually be offensive to anyone else - and others rarely bother to check. Apparently viewing life and nature as sacred (including human life) makes you evil.

Christianity has been mentioned most on this thread because it is primarily that religion which has a big problem with paganism. Not the Jews, or Hindus, or Buddhists.

An organisation in the UK launched "Witchfest" (http://www.witchfest.net/) and knew it would get some Christian protesters. It did, they came with the placards and shouting. Some witches opened the door, commented that the protesters looked a bit cold, and would they like a cup of tea?

The Christians seemed disappointed, and left soon afterwards.

Nearly every pagan I know who has been open about their religion has stories of real persecution and discrimination to tell. I absolutely guarantee it goes beyond the slight embarrassment felt by US christians when the public views them in light of their louder extremist brethren. This is job-wrecking, children-losing ostracism by society, and it's not on a small scale or a personal level.

Starhawk, thank you for being so open, and so insightfully moderate, for so many, many enjoyable years. Your books and research have guided me through all my years as a contented solitary practitioner of the wise-craft. I hope you will continue to moderate such reasoned and REASONABLE discussions as this one!

(Apologies for the length: I started this yesterday. :) )

Well, Athena, there's no 'refuting' what's going on, just the general denials and lookings-the other way that enable the worst of what happens to us: admitting the abuses are happening against real people may come uncomfortably close, for some, to admitting Paganism is real religion, ...and that might mean having to *do* something (like at least standing up and saying 'Stop') when Christian fanatics commit hate crimes. They aren't shy about it, in a lot of towns.

What Mr. Bong Hits for Jesus there dismissed as 'ridicule' is one of the mechanisms of denying what's happening here in this country. Not just to us. But to anyone that a certain group doesn't like.

For us, yeah, particularly dangerous: if they can deny we even *exist,* really, then they can commit acts of discrimination and worse with relative impunity: like the government refusing to address for twenty years, while hiding behind 'procedure' ...our veterans' rights to not have their faith, service, and *death* ...*erased* from public recognition and, perhaps, posterity. When we satisfy the rules, they *change* the rules, 'lose' paperwork, over and over again.

Why?

Erasure. Recognizing our dead flies in the face of certain stereotypes... and certain convenient rhetoric like, 'Our God is the source of all good and patriotism,' ...And it points out the fact that things just don't seem to work out that way, particularly when there are cases of religiously-inspired violence and repression against us...

There's been a sort of program on to inure people to certain ideas about what constitutes 'real religion' and what religions fit... certain narratives. (Notice how that Big Story about how very much of America started considering itself Spiritual Not Religious sort of... went away? Now on the news, they emphasise 'How Many Believe In God.' )

There has in fact been at least one gathering in Washington, ...the Merry Meet Me In DC or some such comes to mind. I understand the government lowballed the Park Service's estimates of how many were there by a factor of ten, and if the media's estimate of how many Pagans there are in the country were correct, why, every single one of us must have shown up. :)

No, America's not out to get us, though. We're just ...*problematic to certain narratives.*

Our reality, our humanity, even our shared heritage, is *inconvenient* to those who want to use a sense of monolithic, monotheistic religion to lead folks around by the nose.

There are a lot of folks out there who don't think of themselves as 'haters,' either: they're just kind of attached to their own religions' self-serving view of Pagans as people who were benighted dupes and hedonist villains with no redeeming qualities, until of course, monotheism came along, ...a few folks haven't noticed modern Pagans ain't exactly the Roman Empire: in some ways we're more people who've inconveniently showed up and refused to be savages.

Or they just never bothered to look, and feel 'oppressed' when we don't fit their story, cause 'Pagans' and 'Witches' are supposed to be *characters in their narrative,* not *real people.*

Certainly not *good* people. Good Americans. Good neighbors. 'People of faith,' even.

For a lot of haters, of course, it's a lot simpler. They just need to feel like they have permission or justification for their own hateful impulses, ...so they can do some things to Pagans that would never be allowed to be done to members of majorities. Some will even say, "Anything we do to you is 'love' cause we're 'saving you from Hell.'"

But, the good news about this whole thing is, it's reactionary against a more modern, more connected, more open, and more pluralistic society that, I think, *has been* coming about, and which reactionary elements are trying to prevent by promulgating division and war.

What's really going on in some circles, is, we, among others, have become scapegoats for the churches' own struggles with modernity: conservative Christians have clearly been feeling like their worldview is falling apart, so, we see the same old story: "It can't be our 'perfect religion,' ...find someone to blame." It's not very convenient for people who tend to base their actions and political agendas on the idea that without fear of their Hell, people will be totally 'out of control,' for there to be this group of people who get along just fine without.

There are some out there who like to claim 'Christians are the charitable ones, here,' ...and to 'prove it,' turn down donations from our holiday can drives. Interesting. (One thing that may confuse Christians on this point is, when we help people out, there is nothing in Paganism that says we have to advertise it, but it's just insulting to not be able to say when asked, particularly when Pagan 'uncharitability' is used to deny 'Faith-based' funding when some have a project in mind.)

It's not that most Christians are out to get us, or want to be haters, (in fact, many tend to doublethink around it, 'Oh, those haters are just trying to 'save' people,' which is a problem of itself.) They tend to be somewhat disinformed about what Pagans are about, (let's face it, they're brought up to believe Pagans were the bad guys, and a lot of people would rather have an enemy than examine why they're turning people off, or why the policies they're told to support *don't work.* )

It seems to me that the neocons, and really, what we can only call a theocratic fascist element in society, are so urgently trying to polarize people *against* religious freedom for non-Christians, against science, against gays, against reason and democracy itself, is because of a certain challenge of modernity. It's a more-connected and less-isolated world: many in the next generation simply don't accept the old prejudices, and this scares them.

So, yes, that can make this a dangerous time.
If certain Christians like to claim 'We're the victims here, we're trying to 'save' you, ' ...of *course* that implies 'You're damned, you're lesser, you're immoral, and it's OK to impose my will on you cause nothing's worse than this Hell we imagine.'

So, the best thing to do, is really to *know your neighbors.* Make sure you're a human being to the people immediately around you. Not everyone has to be an activist: perhaps, actually, the point is that well, we're neighbors. The nice person up the block could be Pagan. Sometimes it helps if they know and trust you as a person before the subject comes up, if at all. Certainly, some of us have to speak up, in this world, but there's a question of timing. It doesn't always do much good to seem to *appear* suddenly, saying, 'I'm a Pagan' and then have people only *see* you through the lens of prejudice and disinformation from the start.

Certainly, it's a shame so many of us have to hide, especially if it keeps us from community:

(it's an utter disgrace for America, I think, that firefighters can't trust people in their own *house* enough to be open about their religion... Ladysmokeater, I suggest checking out the Officers of Avalon, a group for Pagans in the emergency services, for some support,)

And certainly, if *no* one speaks up, or otherwise represents, that has its own obvious dangers; with so many out there bent on defaming us, silence is dangerous, too. But neither is there an *obligation* for all of us to reveal ourselves. (not all of us are even particularly *good* at it, for that matter.)

Certainly, given that the discrimination exists, there's something to be said for some of us keeping our powder dry, too, at least while the Christian world is having its crisis (hopefully it won't be too late when the smoke clears,) But.

The worst of the abuses against us happen to those of us who are made vulnerable by *poverty.* The discrimination does sometimes mean *dispossession.* So, ...pick your battles.

I call on our Christian neighbors who are reading this to stand up for the freedoms America *really* stands for. This 'Hell' excuse frankly doesn't wash. I've counseled people who were *tortured* in the guise of some kind of 'exorcism' ...for having Pagan beliefs, or just for being mentally-ill (often from the selfsame abusive treatment in the first place.)

There's so much good out there that needs doing, that we could *all* agree on.

This fighting over *beliefs* only serves the greedy and irresponsible elements in our society who would turn us against each other rather than face up to real problems or put some kind of check on corporations and politicians who want manipulable sheep for a populace, and unfettered profit for an 'elect' few. ...Who literally seem to have some kind of apocalyptic 'scorched earth' policy as they grow further and further out of touch with, really, the general goodness and civility of an American people just beginning to realize what our freedom and equality can really mean. It's scary to some, maybe a little bewildering to many, and very promising to others.

Plenty of Christians have been rising to the challenge.

To the rest, I could say, with perhaps excessive bravado: Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

Interesting times, indeed.

Firstly, let me rephrase my earlier statement: the Second Amendment should only be a recourse when all the legal options are exhausted or your life is in danger. Then shoot.

Secondly, Brambleton: If a group of 100 people approached you to convince you that the way you live your life is wrong, that everything you believe and practice is wrong, and eternal torment by a capricious deity is your destiny if you don't, AND ONLY ONE OF THEM BEATS YOU HALF TO DEATH to encourage you while the others loo