All Comments (115)

as youve been name calling and degenerating into very unmannerly behavior on other blogs here- i am disinclined to aloow myself to be disrespected.

Well, talking at people and using them as things in a script may make people feel they are making the world a better place. But they are not.

no one said such a sweeping gneralization

as i said, i am aware of why jewish people support israel.

but i find those reasons separatist and elitist and distasteful.

what i said is i cant find anyone who will give a REASONABLE account, including you.

i didnt address your list?

i just REPOSTED ITS POINTS!

forget it dave, you dont have a reason, call insulting names on the main blog

youre only defense is to be so offensive that you ve chased all the reasonable people out of the main blog

but it still isnt a substitute for reason
for presenting a viewpoint that others can understand

youre so polarized that you mistake any dissent as some kind of nonsense

but provide no ideas to counter

if you had valid reasons youd post them

not the presidents
not the evangelicals
not the business expertise of israelis

you dont even know the subject very well and think over emotional and angry reactions should be respected

so no dave- you couldnt be further from understanding me as you make no attempt
and as always- degenerate into name calling which is completely undeserved (as calling me ignorant on the main blog to very friendly and gentle comments and asking)

im not asking you anymore dave because it is clear you dont know why you believe what you do

Victoria,

In addition to the reasons you do not want to address, I reposted an earlier list of reasons which you have not addressed. And Carter raised aid to Israel when he was president and had access to great information about the situation. Now he does not.

I have no idea which sentences with we have offended you.

And telling me my reasons are not reasons is downright personal.

If I understand you, none of the people you know in the Anti Israel movement in either LA or NYC can figure out why Jews support Israel. So they conclude most Jews are not rational about the subject. And that is consistent with what Carter is saying. There is no way to deal with folks like that. You have to wait until wiser people emerge in positions of leadership.

you read my mind dave- i just posted something on WIB on the main blog.

pretty similar to me dave.

united in a desire to give voice to the voiceless.

personal observations arent necessary , and actually extraneous in a negative way.

i wish youd stop that.

as ive asked o so many times for your own personal reasons- not someone elses- ive been so focused and clear on that.

that is what ive asked for, but you keep sayig you did, but i cant find it.

as ive said- a list of why others do it- isnt your personal reasons.

no dave- i just started with the first one- whic is the evangelists- and asked why you follow what evangelicals say.

you never answered that either.
if youd have answered we could go down it and discuss reasonably.
so far all i have is-

evangelicals supprt israel
you trust the judgement of the presidents (except carter)
great military prowess
financial prowess (on the part of israel)

and then you kept saying "we"
who is we?

i ws asking dave-singular. are you saying we as a jewish groupthink?

anyway- i asked you what your reasoning process is that led you to support israel.

i still havent seen it but maybe you dont have one- which is fine

Victoria,

At least you seem to be learning brevity. Repetitious and pointless but brief.

I have given you several sets of reasons. None of them fits your definition.

I reposted one list. You ignored it the second time just as you had the first.

I posted one list and you only dealt with the reason I gave for why other people support Israel. You pretend the others do not exist even though you have referred to the only one you recognize as the first.

I am sure organizations like Women in Black are filled with noble people. However I wonder how many of them and folk in similarly minded organizations reason as you do.

still waiting for WHY dave supports israel.

go ahead, ive been waiting- im not asking why dershawitz does - his prejudice is rampant-

im asking why you , dave, feel the way you do.

thats not so difficult.

you havent answered, youve said yuou trust your leaders, and you follow the evangelicals.

if you have a personal rationale post it-

you havent yet because you dont have a personal reason that will stand up for reasonable people

youve made enough slurs and racist remarks about palestinians that im thinking your only personal reason is based on bias, with no ethics to back it

Victoria,

As you have pointed out and shown unmistakably here, when people give you well thought out answers which do not fit your script, you do not see them as answers. Your expectation is unreasonable. If you want a counterpart to what Carter and you say, read Dershowitz's Case For Israel. Do not expect me to be what you think I am.

"surety isnt exactly a damning quality in a debate"

Surety about what I have written when you understand it poorly makes discussion impossible as you keep showing. And many others whose views are like yours also use your methods and think they are spreading peace thereby.

dave, repeating that something is complex- doesnt substitute for a discussion or exchange.

you support israel.
i am anti-zionist.

is that a fair assessment?

while ive provided pages and page of WHY my conscience dictates my position, you havent yet
given any answer as to WHY your conscience leads you to support israel.

i have honestly asked, eager to understand,

even the panelist here- couldnt give a personal reason for her fence straddling on the issue.

while ive read every one of her stories more than once, i couldnt find any reason that she supports israel (and she does) except that she dreamed of planting trees there when she was a child.

her answer?

i like cookies.

maybe that was cute when she was a kid, but to me its just more nonsense.

if you have a rason why- you would state it clearly.

after over a month, you havent found your voice.
i can only surmise your voice falters in its own stridency when your conscience holds it up to light, and any reasons you may have posted, you deleted when you recognized how theyd be interpreted.

these are childish and energy draining runarounds, and ive given you the respect that you can give an honest and clear answer as to your personal reasons why you support israal.

as it hasnt happened, i have to assume you dont have any reasons why that would stand up to public scrutiny, but only resonate somewhere deep in your psyche for you alone.

surety isnt exactly a damning quality in a debate
its just the surety f my conscience and my comfortability with my own heart on this issue

as i know many palestinians, and many jewish people- i dont really know any zionists-

i thought youd have an answer

Victoria,

"actually dave- yes you did.

that is exactly what you said."

I note that you do not have a quote which shows you are right. That is the methodology folks who oppose Israel use: repetition, surety, and stridency. It works. You can push all kinds of things that way.

"you still deny the palestinian people even have a right to be."

And you have no quote for that assertion.

"you continue to deny that there are issues that need to be dealt with"

Wrong again. There are many complex issues. I have discussed them and tried to show how complex they are.

This is not a conversation. This is someone with just a first name talking at a fictitious person she identifies with me. The fictitious person says things I have never said and holds views which contradict my own in some cases and are not mine in other cases. I find it interesting. No matter how many times I encounter things like this my curiosity about how they have come to be never changes.

actually dave- yes you did.

that is exactly what you said.

i asked about 20 times what you dave marshak personally use as your own personal opinion and reasoning process to support israel.

that is exactly your answer, but i asked for specific reasons - (which includes the why)

weve been through this-

it is a statement without the why and ive asked you why you personally reason your support-

you give me someone elses reason.

so how does this apply to dave marshak?

while you keep saying "we" the question was to your personal "I"

and you know that

while you pretend to talk about peace- you still deny the palestinian people even have a right to be.

that is where the conversation should start dave.

while you continue to deny that there are issues that need to be dealt with, and blindly rubberstamp any action of israel- your attitude in particular is what is the greatest deterant to any peaceful dialogue.

it starts with recognizing the rights of palestinians to live in peace and unmolested.

which you have yet to do.

Victoria,

It is a reason we support Israel. It is a true statement. I did not say it was a reason for what I say and do. You added that and are riding it like a hobby horse. I gave other reasons with that and before it yet somehow those do not interest you. I guess you think your relentless disagreement with what I have not said is a way to peace. I disagree.

well its easy-

heres what you said-
"Christians especially evangelical Protestants think Jews should be back in Israel."

since youre not an evangelical- why should this be a reason for you?

It is clear that you think I am saying what I am not saying. Unless you are playing a game.

I have been over this again and again and you keep insisting I am saying what I am not saying. Evidently you feel you are showing your superior thought processes. And I can not find a way to appreciate why you are sure of that.

well, you still havent answered- we havent gotten past the first reason as youve never stated why you consider the evangelicals worth following-

more of the same - why cant you ever answer a question directly?

you slip and slide all over the place

i dont know why you think evngelicals should be followed dave as you havent said

you dont make sense

Victoria,

Okay. You can keep on saying what I said while I disagree with you. And people like you can do that en masse to masses of people. What does it accomplish? It seems to me it builds the anger that leads to violence.

I have provided a collection of reasons. The most powerful is my confidence that every president since Truman has not been wrong about Israel and that while in office they have far better information than anyone else has. That is because they head a government filled with brilliant people analyzing things.

The reason you cite is the single greatest reason we support Israel. It is one among several I gave. Yet you ignore the rest. And you can't recall all the other times I have answered your question with reasons. And your research skills are such that you can't find them.

another clintonian cop out?

defining the word reason?

yes dave- why does your opinion rest on what evangelicals think?

im not having problems dave

you just dont have an answer

when someone asks me a question i answer - or if i cant i say so honestly-

you squirm around like clinton defining the meaning of the word 'it'

why as a jewish person would your reasons for supporting israel rest upon the evangelicals views?

that makes no sense

do you listen to the evangelicals views and follow them on other issues?

or just israel?

if you follow them on other issues youre an evangelical then

if its only israel its just jumping on a bandwagon and is not a real reason at all

Victoria,

We are having continual problems with the simplest of words and ideas. The word reason is an extraordinary source of difficulty. So it is easy to see why you can not understand people who disagree with you about these very complex issues.

Here you say reasons I give for why we support Israel must be my reasons. Yet you also ask for the reasons we support Israel. And the one you now dislike is the strongest.

Why don't you discuss the rest of the reasons I have given? And why in the world do you blame AIPAC for what Christians think?

well, my point is-

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

well, as for number 1 reason-

because the evangelicals want to force gods hand and push the apocalypse up so that jesus(ata) can come again-

isnt this a little bit exclusivist?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

your reason is that christian evangelicals believe that the jews should be back in israel-

so- why should that be YOUR reason?

youre not evangelical

why would your reasons be dependent on what evangelicals think?

I don't see your point. You seem to hold AIPAC responsible for what Christians like Dick Cheney want. In my view, they want what want for their own reasons and not because they are tools of AIPAC and Jewish Neocons.

well, as for number 1 reason-

because the evangelicals want to force gods hand and push the apocalypse up so that jesus(ata) can come again-

isnt this a little bit exclusivist?

I have given you reasons why we support Israel. You ignore them. A google search will give you many reasons. So why do you keep saying you have not gotten any answers and there are no answers? It seems to me that as with many of these discussions, you see no reasons because of the way you are defining what is a reason and what is not. What about the specific reasons I have given fails your test for what a reason is?

Some of the reasons I have given are:

Christians especially evangelical Protestants think Jews should be back in Israel.

We look at Israel with its robust democracy and enterprising spirit and see people who are doing the kinds of things we like people to do. So we help them out.

The money spent for Israel balances the money others spend against Israel. It is based on the fact that a war has been going on against Israel for almost 60 years; sometimes it is very hot and sometimes it is cold but it has never stopped.

Israel is very creative in its business zone and we like nations that are good at business, enterprise, creating new technologies, running things well, and solving issues among themselves peacefully using the tools of Democracy.

We think a peaceful Middle East, where the nations are more like what I said about Israel in the prior paragraph, is good for us and good for humanity. And we think our views about how to achieve that make sense.

i guess the point is, no one has presentd a case as to why we should be the friend of jews in israel in the first place-

its not a given-

every other country and people has to prove some sort of worthiness and its never asked of israel- or is it ever offered

thats what ive been asking you dave and after all this time you havent considered it

now ive offered countless posts of a specific and focused nature- no response to that-

ive been trying to find someone who can give a reason why israel should be supported, as their human rights record is atrocious-

and no one addresses this- no one

the only answer seems to be - dont ask the question- you are bad for asking this question

it doesnt make the question go away- it just makes me in particular think that if jewish people themselves cant come up with a good reason to support israel, why shoud i?

ive been open to any dialogue, but no one has any.
direct questions are continually deflected into long deconstruction of the question itslef, as if that matters.

a question is a question and for this question ive found no one willing to answer it directly

the fault does not lie with the query

There is a lot of self delusion around. People with no sense of reason think they can teach it. People who hate, thinking they are all about love. People making absurdly general and vague statements thinking something useful will come from them. We have crowds of people getting angry with each other over these things who never can be careful and specific enough to resolve even a few small issues.

clarity- continuity of thought- connectedness and coming back round to an original point-
focusing on that point and examining it from different sides and views-

repsect for the other debater and never sinking into personal observations as a substitute for staying on topic-

dave its been a month and a half- while ive waited for you to formulate some sort of reasoning process for why you believe what you do- ive had to construct my own in the absence of input from you-

i really have asked repeatedly-

you dont really have much take on people like me-
theres no accusation in any statements i make- thats also in your head-

any question you ask i answer, and research to make sure the sources are acceptable and neutral-

i put alot of effort into it dave but you just it appears- come in and repost what i write- and then give quick dismissals-

ive put time into talking with you because i assumed you care about the issue but you never get to the issue-

this sint how people engage- you make a point- with substantiation- i make a counterpoint with substantiation-

to date you have not researched or provided sources for one post and there have been i bet more than a hundred by now at least-

its about caring and effort i guess

"guess its an emotional indoctrination garnered at your mothers knee-"

That seems to be the way people who view things as you do think about people who disagree with them. And they I guess see themselves as noble contrasts to that?

"no reasoning process"

You clearly have special criteria for what is such. What are they?

well yes dave- i d think that youve come here and have an opinion but no reasoning process to back it up-

no you havent- anyone can look and see you havent offered your reasoning process-

i can only guess its an emotional indoctrination garnered at your mothers knee-

also your misleading post that you already gave a reason falls flat on its face-

if you did and i missed it- simply repost it-

I did that and listed reasons.

Why would I be afraid to say what I thnk here?

Do you really think I have never thought about the subject and have no reasons for what I think is right?

It is odd you could read what I have posted here and think that. How many Americans do you view that way? Is that way of thinking common among the people you know who are sure we should cut off aid to Israel? It would explain a lot about the way they talk and behave.

how about this dave-

just sit for a minute, think about why you support israel -

then type it onto the blog-

i dont expect proof dave as its a personal opinion-

simply- why do you hold that opinion?
what led you, dave, to the decision to support israel?

its an opinion so its not open to criticism

youve just never given one

why is a very simple question

youve never stated your own personal reason-

i am very curious

maybe you hve a perspective that will enable me to see it from another view

what could possibly be wrong with that?

what thought processes (or emotional ones) have led you to your personal conclusion?

simple focused just write it out!

i think you are afraid to state out loud maybe or maybe it seems you have no real resons and its becoming apparent
maybe you never thought about it
i dont know

think about it now

and then simply write - is this plain- simple enough?

"what is astonishing to me is that after a month of asking you-
and you having staed absolutely that you support israel-

you have never given a personal reasoning for believing that-"

I have no idea why you keep saying that and how you can miss all of the things I have said.

"as we have a running discussion on 5 different blogs- all on the same issue-"

We are not discussing anything. You would have to read what I have written not write F across the top and throw it away.

You are simply saying the same things over and over again. That is what people like Carter and self named peace advocates, who are far from peaceful people, do.

What of the above do you expect me to prove and what would you view as proof?

no dave- youre making assumptions again (kind of loopy ones)

star wars isnt my world paradigm

it really has nothing to do with a moral or immoral value judgement-

what is astonishing to me is that after a month of asking you-
and you having staed absolutely that you support israel-

you have never given a personal reasoning for believing that-

you say you dont have enough information to make a decision- but that means youvemade a decision with litle or no information

i find it incredible that you have a postion-but have no idea why you hold it.

as we have a running discussion on 5 different blogs- all on the same issue-

after one month= you still havent managed toome up with even a single reason-

that is the fascinating thing to me-

just coming back to see your new avoidance tactics-

its extraordinary

and i know your response here will be just as slippery and unidentifiable-

most likely youll just throw my words back at me and dismiss them without proof

very interesting

dont tell me what i think dave, and in a similar fashion- i will not disrespect you in that way.

so what items in particular in our aid package to israel would not be there had you a say in it?

since you completely neglected to address any item in the long copy i made- possibly you could pick something out of there-

I have made a decision that the US and Israel are not Evil Empires ruled by the Dark Side of the Force. Some disagree. I view that as a practical analysis of very complex systems. I do not view it as a moral judgment.

You see funding as a moral issue. That goes with the Evil Empire notion. So I do not see it as a consuming moral issue.

I agree with some things our government does and strongly disagree with others. There may be items in our aid package for Israel that would not be there had I a say in it. There may be things which I would like funded which are not funded.

well dave- the fact is that you already have made the judgement-

you openly have supported america financing israel-

i never asked you for facts- only your own personal reasons for why you support funding.

why do we have to agree for you to have a reasoning process to back up your belief that israel should be financed by the usa?

we dont.

you dont need to find some level of mutual agreement-

you didnt ask me (you didnt know me) when you decided to support israeli funding by the usa.

why would my agreement be contingent on your personal reasoning process?

it doesnt.

you have a stated opinion.

you support funding.

surely there is a reason you have that opinion.

what is the reason?

"how do you personally justify morally the immense support given to israel?"

There is a difference in the way we think about things.

From my point of view, careful analysis should come before judgment not afterwards to justify it. Hence I am trying to arrive at enough things we can agree are true to make a moral judgment possible. You seem to feel that we have an obligation to make moral judgments whether we can agree about the facts or not.

The problem with that is that since the moral judgments are based on facts we can not agree on, we can't work through them. So we have anger because people are not behaving morally and the surety that comes when we confront error or evil.

"you are claiming you hvent seen figures-"

Here the issue is numbers and their meaning. Numbers that roll things five miles up do not make facts that we can reason about. Nor is there some magical tone of voice or number of repetitions that will help with that. People who view such things as educating others do not understand how the learning process works.

here dave- you know i posted this elsewhere- you saw t and dint comment- and now you are claiming you hvent seen figures-

A) The nature of US foreign aid to Israel

1. Constitutes 30% of the total US foreign aid budget, which renders Israel to be the largest recipient of US aid in the world
2. Started in 1948 and gradually increased over the years
3. Promotes American interests in the Middle East
4. Proposed by Israel in 1998 to be reduced in an effort to establish an economically independent country

B) The controversy for US foreign aid to Israel

1. Granted in disproportion to Israel's size and needs
2. Promotes the illegal occupation of Palestinian land in order to establish settlements for Jewish immigrants
3. Transforms Palestine into a military test ground
4. Violates US Law and abuses human rights
5. Inflicts great economic losses upon the American people

Sources

A) The nature of US foreign aid to Israel

A1. Constitutes 30% of the total US foreign aid budget, which renders Israel to be the largest recipient of US aid in the world

* Since 1987, the US congress has annually been approving a foreign aid bill totaling an average of $3 billion of American taxpayers' money to Israel, $1.2 billion in economical aid, and $1.8 billion in military aid.
* After the gulf war in 1991, the US has additionally been offering Israel $2 billion annually in federal loan guarantees, which brings the total US foreign aid to Israel to about $5 billion, or $13.7 million per day.
* Other forms of aid to Israel are a result of "consequential" aid, such as the approximate $1.5 billion in total tax-deductible private donations from numerous Jewish charities and individual donors. "Consequential" aid to Israel adds up to an approximate $8 billion in total US foreign aid to Israel.
* All in all, this is the largest amount of foreign aid given to a country, and constitutes over 30% of the total amount of US foreign aid budget.

A2. Started in 1948 and gradually increased over the years

* Soon after the Truman decision in 1948 to recognize Israel as a Jewish State, the US Congress approved an aid package in the form of a $135 million Export-Import Bank loan in order to take in holocaust survivors and provide them with homes.
* Until 1973, aid was mainly made up of military, economic and export-import bank loans, although annual economic grants ranging between $0.1 and $74 million were also offered between the years 1951 and 1962.
* After the 1973 war, the US aid to Israel constituted largely of military and economic grants to help strengthen the Israeli defense forces. This included $12-80 million, which was annually granted towards the establishment of Jewish settlements.
* This TABLE shows the history of US financial assistance to Israel, as documented by the Jewish Virtual Library. Notice the pattern of increased assistance over the years for economic, military and Jewish immigrant grants, especially after 1973. This pattern reflects the US interests (section A3) in empowering Israel as the only democratic, close ally in the region, and not for the pure intent to assist a developing country.

A3. Promotes American interests in the Middle East

* The US funding to Israel acts as the backbone for the strategic partnership between both countries. By advancing Israel's technological and military powers, the US is able to share intelligence information regarding Arab militant groups, like Hizbullah, as well as information regarding the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction in countries such as Iran, Iraq and Syria.
* Three quarters of the military aid to Israel goes for importing US-made military equipment such as F-16 and Apache attack helicopters. This creates a job market for US citizens and transforms Palestine into a test ground for US made weaponry, used daily against Palestinians.
* Israel has cooperated with the US arms industry to develop more effective military equipment at affordable costs to the US. About one quarter of the military aid to Israel is contributed towards military research and development, where several innovative jet fighters, missiles and navigating and targeting devices have been manufactured and sold back to the US. Examples are the ITALD, Litening, Popeye and the UAV.

A4. Proposed by Israel in 1998 to be reduced in an effort to establish an economically independent country

* In 1998, according to an agreement with the Clinton Administration and Congress, Israel voluntarily requested to decrease its financial dependence on US economic aid by phasing it out over a period of 10 years.
* The $1.2 billion in economic aid will be reduced by $120 million each year until it is down to zero in the year 2008. This will help Israel to become an economically independent country.
* However, 50% of the savings (i.e. $60 million) each year will be added to an emergency military aid fund to Israel. This demonstrates the US's persistence and commitment to help Israel gain control of the region.

B) The controversy for US foreign aid to Israel

B1. Granted in disproportion to Israel's size and needs

* Israel is an economically, technologically, and militarily advanced country, with a per capita rate of $14,000, which is higher that that of all neighboring Arab countries, including the oil-rich Saudi Arabia. It is ranked as the world's sixteenth wealthiest country, yet the US aid to Israel constitutes 30% of the total US foreign aid budget.
* Israeli population is 5.8 million, which only constitutes one thousandth of the world's total population. Between the years 1949 and 1998, the US has provided a total of $84 billion in aid to Israel, which exceeds that given to all countries of sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, and the Caribbean combined, with a total population of about 1.054 billion people.

B2. Promotes the illegal occupation of Palestinian land in order to establish settlements for Jewish immigrants

* A portion of US foreign aid to Israel, which has increased in the past decade to $80 million annually, goes into building settlements for Jewish immigrants. This occurs by the illegal confiscation of Palestinian land and home demolition to allow for space. Jewish settlements surround every single Palestinian city in the West Bank, and their rapid construction since 1973 has prevented the creation of a feasible Palestinian State.
* Jewish settlements are built on confiscated Palestinian land to accommodate Jewish immigrants from all over the world, based on the Israeli Law of Return. These immigrants are guaranteed the right to Israeli citizenship, free Hebrew learning, and immediate employment. On the other hand, Palestinian refugees who were forced to flee their homes in 1948 and 1967 are forbidden from returning to their towns of origin.

B3. Transforms Palestine into a military test ground

* Seventy five percent of US military aid to Israel goes into purchasing US-made military equipment, such as tanks, machine guns, bullets, helicopter gunships, and more. The US depends on Israel to test new military technologies in war conditions. For example, uranium-depleted ammunition has been fired at civilians in Palestine.

B4. Violates US Law and abuses human rights

* The Foreign Assistance Act (FAA) of the United States, which provides guidelines for the eligibility of certain countries to purchase US-made weapons and military equipment, states in section 116 that "No assistance may be provided under this part to the government of any country which engages in a consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognized human rights." However, Israeli army engages daily in degrading and inhumane treatments towards Palestinians, such as prolonged detention without charges, strip searches at checkpoints, beatings, torture, and home demolitions. According to Amnesty International, Israel is the only country that legalizes torture.
* Similarly, section 4 of the Arms Export control Act prevents the US government from selling defense articles to countries that abuse their use for non-self-defense purposes. In 2001, the US State Department described the actions of Israeli army against Palestinians as an "excessive use of force," referring to the use of live ammunition when soldiers were not in a pending danger. This clearly shows that the US does not agree with the way these weapons are being used against Palestinians, yet the US military aid to Israel continues consistently as agreed between both countries.

B5. Inflicts great economic losses upon the American people

* Besides the roughly $8 billion in annual taxpayer money to Israel, there are hard to track forms of aid which have been causing great economic losses to the American people. According to the Central Bank of Israel, in the 1980's the US bailed out the Israeli banking system at a cost of $10-12 billion in military and economic aids. Congressional researchers disclose that this money was never paid back, and has been forgiven by the American government.
* The US's trade deficit with Israel is about $5-5.5 billion. This is due to trade imbalance between both countries. While the US pays real money for imports from Israel, Israel does not pay real money for its imports from the US. This costs the American people an equivalence of a quarter million jobs.
* In a similar manner, there are great losses to American military institutions. For every dollar of military equipment the US gives Israel, the US buys 60 cents worth of Israeli equipment. Only the difference here is that the US pays with real money, but Israel does not.
* The Oil Supplies Guarantee affirms that if Israel's oil supply is to be cut off for any political or economic reason, the US guarantees to provide Israel with oil regardless of the US oil supply levels. This guarantee carries with it a potential price tag of $20-30 million a day.

this is one of many things ive posted
but you already know that-

so with this infirmation available to you right here and undeniable-

what are your personal reasons for continuing to fund israel?

i didnt mention nazis dave- i didnt mention aipac, why do you?

the question remains- why do you personally support funding israel?

you as a moral human- what isyour reason?

and this is relevant to the question how dave?
the question remains - how do you personally justify morally the immense support given to israel?

you support it- ok- why?

Israel is an ally of the United States in a part of the world where we have many enemies and few friends. And Israel does many good things. They are not Nazi Germany.

What happened in the past is done. It is what we do now that matters. And treating AIPAC as if they are a Fifth Column for Israel and Israel as if it is Nazi Germany is wildly unhelpful on many different levels.

dave what are you talking about?

i asked you in particular as a moral human how you reason that after 59 years israel should continue to receive money-

ive given you countless links and broken down easily interperted government figure many times-

its a simple question- im not asking aipac-

you believe israle deserves financial support from the usa.

why do you believe that?

I do not view it as charity.

I have no idea what all of the line items are. I don't think anyone else does.

We are doing what we do because we are not clever enough to figure something out that will work better.

It seems to me a tad simplistic to believe we can figure out what makes sense when people who are paid to do so can't get it right. The issue is how wrong are they getting it and why are they getting it wrong. Blaming it on AIPAC simply makes the problem worse because it shows that the views of Jews which led to the Shoah are still popular.

no dave- ive asked specifically what is YOUR opinion on why america should keep giving billions in charity to israel-

i already know why the usa soes it-

im asking - your personal reason -

let me know when the question is framed to perfection that you feel ready to reply-

Jimmy Carter supported Israel when he was president. I don't hear him saying that was a total mistake. He seems very much on the side of the Palestinians to me. How do you view what happened when JFK, Jimmy Carter, and Bill Clinton were presidents? Was their policy in the Middle East stupid and evil?

I guess you view that as answering with a question but I am trying to figure out the parameters you have set for this question which you keep asking:

"what is the reason the usa financially supports israel?"

It is certainly not out of deference to me. No one except you has asked me to look into it.

its okay dave- the weight of the worlds moral issues arent on your shoulders-

ive respected your opinion in the past which is why i ask it-

now peace dave

but thats not the question dave-

what is the reason the usa financially supports israel?

why should we continue?

ok no vagueness-

why does israel deserve so much money?

israel in particular?

your particular reason?

what makes them so deserving?

how do you personally dave justify the aid we give to israel?

specific enough?

please, no more misleading answering questions with questions-

just your considered response-

why give israel aid?

"whay give israel so much money for 59 years?"

That is vague.

You have a definition of aggression I do not agree with. Your view of doing the right thing differs from mine.

The Palestinians could get organized. They could stop killing each other, foreigners and Israelis. They could put someone in charge rather than have many different leaders working more or less independently.

ive given you the specifics countless times dave- and youve noted and responded to them

whay give israel so much money for 59 years?

every single other country gets cut off at 10 years from us aid-

youve seen manymany figueres by me on other panelists

we both know this weve been having this discussion for as long as this questions been posted

why so much money for so long?

israeli aggressions up

palestinians aggressions down

doesnt seem to be helping the palestinians to try and do the right thing when we keep rewarding the israelis giving them money...for killing more palestinians?

whats the reasoning?

"i gave some easily interperted statistics from a wrold wide valid source"

Which in particular are you referring to?

"we dont need to define pacifism"

It is used to refer to those who support violence against folk they view as oppressors.

"your unquestioning support of israel is frightening"

I question everything. I am simply skeptical about some of what is bandied about as truth.

"can you criticize israel without being accused of anti-semitism?"

Yes. And you can do so when you are anti-semitic. And people can make unfair statements about Jews because they absorb them like air and hang out where they are viewed as truth. And some will view that as anti-semitic just as some view Jews as genocidal.

"why do we give israel so much money?"

Politics. I would have to look at specifics to see what I think about them.

who blamed israel?

i was clarifying a situation you misunderstood

back to the point dave

you dont have a problem or comment about the figures provided?

theyre new- their from the bbc-

what other possible distraction could be provided?

i find it unsettling that although the aggression is decreasing from the palestinina side it seems to have no berng on how theyre being treated-

dave- if the situation were reversed and there were muslims doing this for 60 years i would be just as vociferous-

its not a religious question-

weve been a 3oo billion dollar friend to israel for 59 years-

id ask when do we start being friends to the palestinians?

no one mentioned blame dave-

if jewish people were being imprisoned illegally in america its likely id be more not less vocal because i know alot more jewish peope than palestinians

suffering is suffering- oppression is wrong

i gave some easily interperted statistics from a wrold wide valid source

we dont need to define pacifism

your unquestioning support of israel is frightening

but its not unique- hence the question

can you criticize israel without being accused of anti-semitism?

if the phenomenon erent so evident it wouldnt be a question would it?

how about funding then?
why do we give israel so much money?
thats a straight question

Surely you do not blame that on Jews or Israel?

"many doctors many professors-
tax-paying american citizens contributing to the usa"

Could you point to some articles about this? Surely the Democratic Party does not go along with it?

no dave there arent- this is a unique legal quandry-

these are not people captured in battle-

these are AMERCIAN CITIZENS-

in american prisons dave- for 5 years now

without being charged- without access to lawyers-

being held under "secret evidence"

last i heard dave, american citizens had the right to a speedy and expeditious trial and also the right to face their accusers, the right to legal counsel-

so your answer to this is that there are many people awaiting decisions on charges to be filed?

who dave?
where?

again these are AMERICAN CITIZENS
taken from their homes and jobs

not soldiers- not terrorists- not captured in battle- not part of an army- many doctors many professors-
tax-paying american citizens contributing to the usa

Israel must get along with whoever is in power in the United States. Jews did not elect Bush. It takes no Israel lobby to convince the folks who voted for Bush that what our government does is okay. There are 300 million people in the United States. 3000 is a thousandth of a percent.

"of course all the imprisoned are arabic males 16-40"

There are many people in prison awaiting a decision on what charges are to be filed. The police can arrest and hold. They can not file charges. People captured in battle, who are not part of an army whose government can be negotiated with, are in limbo. Governments used to hang such people after a summary judgment. Now we are figuring out what to do as we go. Had Gore or Kerry won, things would be different.

sorry dave- thats over 3000 in america-
what is unreasonable about this?

a portion of the population imprisoned without any charge whatsoever-

not able to face their accusers because they claim they are being held under "secret evidence"

in america- its not a matter of the reasons not being published- its a matter of the reasons simply being deemed "secret"

im not a legal expert dave but in america we are supposed to have a right to a fair and speedy trial-
and to be able to face our accusers-

this has not happened here before- (of course all the imprisoned are arabic males 16-40)
o and citizens too-

sorry about the mix-up