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So Starhawk, since you've got all these great solutions, and incredible experience, when are you announcing your candidacy?

You don't seem to like how anyone else is doing it, and you feel you know how to do it better, so step up.

I've been reading through the articles, bits and blurbs, and it sounds like Lou Dobbs on ecstasy.

To clarify, this was another person with a the world would be perfect if everyone else were forced to live in accordance with my ideals speech.

How does forcing a politicians children to go without, improve the quality of life for a nation? Is it ethical for a family to be hazed by a nation? How far is too far? The heart of the statements are that those who are in power are oppressors, and must suffer to prove that they are "on our side"

It holds so much bitterness towards established government that it risks throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Why don't we make potential doctors ingest cultures of Avian Flu to motivate them to produce vaccines? Oh yeah, because deliberately causing suffering in others for the sake of gratifying your desire to see someone who once stepped on you hurt doesn't cure diseases.

Oh man, this message board is hilarious. I'm amazed that some of these commenters even exist. They're not even good enough at being trolls to be credible.

Starhawk: Thank you for those words. You're quite right that we could do with removing the power-hungry and egotistical from office. Sadly, it's impossible to elect anyone who isn't fairly rich already (the required money rising with seniority) so that may be difficult. Doesn't mean it's not a good idea.

Hope you had a great Imbolc!

Lady Starhawk,
Blessed Be!

I wonder if you realize how much a difference your book Spiral Dance has made to so many seekers that were in the hinderland?

I celebrated with tears the day I found your, at that time, new book...I clutched Spiral Dance, Calling Down the Moon and The Golden Bough like they were saving my life.

I thank you, Margo Adler and Sir Frazier (though he was unknowing what he was doing...lol).

I came home.
Goddess Bless you,
Lady Keir

BGone,
Try the Goddess Fortuna instead of George.

Pagans have a version of heaven...Wiccans call it Summerland, and we believe in reincarnation...Merry Meet Again. You do not understand "Gods" very well. But that is ok...Life is a school and we have to redo the lessons until we get them right. To us that is a joy...to come back again and again to learn and to get another chance to dance on this green and blue ball while it twirls in the energy filled space? Awesome!

We do not need a hell when you know you pay in this life for the wrong you do. We do not need a devil as we are responcible for our actions and we will pay. We do not have a way out with being "saved" we have to face our selves in honor and truth.

The Christ is not a purely Christian entity...the God Apollo was called Christus(Lord)first.

A savior is only necessary if you have the mythology of the Christian. We don't..so it's not necessary for us.

Oh and our Gods that I think you called demons...they can be destructive as they are also Gods of Justice. Don't deserve it and you will not get it. A Goddess like Kali Ma is protrayed as killing..but if you see the symbols, it is demons that She kills, hate, fear, bigotry,lust...etc. Kali Ma is also a protector of life, a birth giver.

Would you accept what your enemy said about you? Don't accept what has been said about us by people that hate us. Do some research..

MS STARHAWK - I just revisited the http://www.hoax-buster.org and noticed something that you should know, assuming you don't already. He says that absolutely everyone is going on to a next life, heaven to evangelicals and that next life is not the end of it all either, still another and another indefinitely.

Your group is "eternal life" short of having the winning SPIRITUAL argument the way I understand gods. A big selling point for early Christians was just that, heaven, more life after this one.

Heaven without the possibility of supernatural being hell, (we can still make our own hell) should be more appealing to superstitious Europeans than the high wire act to get past the demon on the nebol bridge, Savior, Christ an absolute necessity.

The Bible being proved a hoax will surely have an impact on traditional spirituality, the end of "The Christ." Labyrinths are coming in vogue as we speak to say nothing on never picking up a headsup nickles in the parking lot. Good luck and never forget to pray to George if it's a winning KENO ticket you seek.

Jihadist - you caught me too, verses vs rituals. At least you knew what I meant. I never bother reading that type of thing anyhow. To me Muslims in general seem to have really short fuses. That was the point and I don't think I'm alone with that opinion.

We are supposed to have the right to be wrong without worrying about visits form beheaders. If we're wrong enough then there's lawyers, the civilized way to right wrongs. As you may have noticed, condemnations to hell are commonplace and will probably flourish with the next general election. The proper response is, "we'll see who sends who to hell."

Some of us are not of Nordic decent. In fact there's a lot of Arabic blood here abouts that came via Spain and other places.

Peace. Live and let live and learn to laugh at cartoons even when the cartonists intended to offend. There's always the legal system that is sometimes worse than beheading, now take the case of Scoot, the one that got "thrown under the bus by the Bush gang" but has crawled back out it would appear.

BGone,

It was the "Satanic Verses" by Salman Rushdie.

As for standards by Muslim authors, the Muslim biographers on Prophet Muhammad PBUH was honest, tabulating all his deeds, including his wives and their ages. These were never censored by Islamic clerics and rulers through the ages and gives much material for western writers on the Prophet to denigrate him.

Islam can't boast of a St. Paul. And the Prophet Muhammad remains a man, a mere mortal, who image can never be drawn or speculated, lest people prayed to him instead of God. He is, after all, a mere Messenger of God.

As for me, I can never get over the fact that Jesus PBUH is always depicted as a blue eyed Caucasian, in spite of being Semitic, nor of Moses speaking on behalf of the National Rifle Association :) Can't have that.

As for the Danes who drew and published the controverial Prohet Muhammad cartoons. The same editor who commissioned the drawings, earlier had refused to accept cartoons on Jesus PBUH as it may not go down well and be controversial. The Muslim ire is really due to this double standards and deliberate provocation.

I hate to break it to you that Muslims are also wired on the Internet, have their own sites and blogs etc. It took months to spill over publicly and for the west to know because when the Muslim ambassadors wanted to meet the Danish prime minister, he refused. He could have met them, said that he took note of their concerns that the cartoons irritated the Muslims in their countries, but the media is free and they would have gone back to their capitals and said so, and the governments would have said they have raised their people's concerns to the Danish government.

The rage in the streets happened because the Danish prime minister, in refusing to meet some 11 ambassadors from Islamic countries, in effect, insulted the countries and people.

It is just plain, good old fashioned courtesy of hearing out someone's concerns. But then the Vikings have never colonized any Islamic or third world country. What do they know about pretending to respect someone's culture while ripping their countries for all it it is worth.

As you know, Denmark's main attraction is Tivoli Gardens, Legoland, the little mermaid on the rock by the sea, and gave birth to Hans Christian Andersen. They live in their own fantasy world. Muslims now know better about the insular Danes. And we don't eat pork and ham, one of their prime exports, only their dairy products :)

Pam,
I too am amazed by the behavior here. There is too much dismissal of faith by athiests (not all mind you but many) and attacks on faith by people of other faiths. To be honest I was a bit dismissive of Starhawk until I read her posts and I am sorry I did not take her more seriously earlier. Live and learn. And you are correct about politics, power courrupts.

Starhawk, my apologies for not taking you seriously earlier, I should know better by now, and I hope you will forgive me.

STARHAWK,

Apparently you actually read your threads sometimes. I know I am only responsible for my own behavior but I can tell you that I started posting on the first day of this website. I am so amazed at the majority of people with bad manners that post on here on a daily basis. I probably should not be surprized as I am not a young person myself and should know by now how many people just actually do not practice respect and manners for other individuals regardless of their sex, religion, race etc. This website has been a real awakening for me.

I was raised with no religious training and am an atheist today. I do not expect anyone to become an atheist, give up their religious beliefs no matter how I may personally feel about their religious affiliation. I do however feel I deserve basic human respect regardless of my beliefs. My parents taught me to respect others.

When someone pushes my buttons (yes I have them) instead of attacking them I quietly think to myself that they have every right to think the way they do and go on about my business. How much better the world would be if many more could do that.

I for one applaud you for any help or time you have spent in volunteering with others in need. I agree with you that if people seeking election would either remember who they were after they are elected or participate in life after they are elected, they would make a better politican. The problem is that even if they are a kind and caring individual they do not stay that way after being elected and serving for any length of time. Washington or a state capital has a way of corrupting most. I don't believe that the average person expects cudos for their service. I am a little fish in a big pond but even I can help, if only in a small way, to do what I can. If the majority of the people in this country just did one little thing to help someone else, regardless of their prejudices, what a great world we would live in.

JIHADIST - books can only go so far with issues as complex they involve mysteries. The virgin Mary is a mystery in several unexplainable ways, (what mysteries are, unexplainable).

Catholics pray to all saints and on November 1 all of them at the same time. That's why they bother canonizing them so people will know which of the dead one can pray to with some expectation of success.

One of the most common errors understanding both Christians and Pagans is the notion that statues are prayed to. There's idiots that do pray to statues. Statues represent saints and gods and are not themselves saints or gods. Christian worship and Pagan worship are identical in all significant ways except the big guy(s) God, gods.

Christians SACRIFICE money to Trinity God. Pagans SACRIFICE chickens to all the gods in general or one or more particular gods. The key to understanding how religions become huge powerful organizations is the SACRIFICE part of all religions. God, gods do not get the SACRIFICE. It's the representatives, vicars that get the SACRIFICES which they use to warp the political process to the point of taking it over.

I use the example of Aztec and Inca gold to show how that works. It's a mathematical certainty that tax exempt organizations will eventually have all the wealth on earth under their control. All the gold robbed from native Americans ended up in the hands of religion operators.

The Conquistadors robbed the Indians. The justification for the robbery was God wills it. The churches robbed the Conquistadors. The weapon of mass destruction used in the robbery was hell. A robber threatens the robbed with a weapon and says, "your money or your life." In the case of religions it's, "your money or your eternal life."

Where did I begin? Oh yeah, books. Who writes the books? Read all books carefully. All authors until very recent history were held to a high standard approved by religion both Christian and Pagan in Western Civilization. Mid Eastern Culture, Islam has it's own standards that authors must adhere to. Now take for example and "Satanic Rituals" or just a silly cartoon causing death threats for authors and publishers. Yes, your are correct. Islam is only a little stronger on that point today while 150 years ago Islam was normal.

You get more votes with Christian rhetoric than without it. America is populated mostly with Christians who vote for candidates that are supposed to represent them and their values. Women voters, black voters, homosexual voters -- all these and other pressure groups work to elect candidates that belong to their identity groups. So why shouldn't Christians?

Interestingly, Maryland, a colony founded by Roman Catholics, was the first to embrace freedom of religion. The Mayflower passengers of Plymouth Rock weren't seeking just the freedom to worship their religion. They were seeking the freedom to establish their own theocracy.

How many Wiccan voters are there in America?

You get more votes with Christian rhetoric than without it. America is populated mostly with Christian who voter and who select candidates that are supposed to represent them and their values. Women voters, black voters, homosexual voters -- all these and other pressure groups work to elect candidates that belong to their identity groups. So why shouldn't Christians?

Interestingly, Maryland, a colony founded by Roman Catholics, was the first to embrace freedom of religion. The Mayflower passengers of Plymouth Rock weren't seeking just the freedom to worship their religion. They were seeking the freedom to establish their own theocracy.

actually TKH jihadist is right-
if you go to the catholic church itself- the church will tell you that the first marian devotees sprang up in ephesus in turkey- which was a center for the goddess astart (or diana)-
even te church itself doesnt try to whitewash its own history- and will most outright state that many goddess cultures were christianized with the cult of mary taking place of the goddesses in place-

now i have spent countless hours of my life in deep conversations with paulines, and apologists, and marians also- and this is the first ive ever heard that a visitation by Mary(ata) was televised-

if you look at your catholic history- Mary(ata) wasnt give divine status until after the council of nicea- in some 326(started) i think around 354 or so it was codified-

and marian worship as a whole was resurrected with john paul II in the west-

omy- i just looked back at your post to make sure you actually claimed Mary(ata) was televised- and you proved my point by stating that the divinity of mary was codified- where?
in ephesus-

It's not nice to pray to Jesus when gambling at KENO or anything for that matter. He's the son of God, the supernatural being that said "by the sweat of your brow you will eat your bread." Anyone gambling plans to eat someone else's lunch free or nearly so.

The pagan gods do not distinguish between good and bad gods. Bad gods are devils of course and they come in real handy when one wants to put a lot of hurt on someone else, one's enemies.

The devil is what we gave Iraq with the "shock and awe" of our high tech weapons that sent a lot of them to hell. For pagans that's all part of the struggle to get the gods to act in their favor. Praying to the Christian God for strength to kill one's enemies cannot be expected to be heard. As the preacher told Patton "one needs a really thick rug for that kind of praying." That's why field commanders would rather the chaplins stayed home.

Maybe if we had pagan gods on our side for a change Iraq would clear up or at least we could stop lying about which supernatural being got us there and is willing to help us get out in as much of one piece as is still possible. Pussyfooting about those mosques would not happen if our gods were the gods of war, devils. When the enemy holed up in one it would be blown to the moon.

The only thing perfectly clear about the Iraq war is a lot of people are trying to send each other to hell in the name of three dollar bill Gods while ignoring the gods that help out in wars. You know, Mars, Thor, that bunch.

Don't do war but if you must at least get your gods straight first else, "a mighty empire will be defeated." That's what the Oracle said when the mighty king came for advice before starting a war and she was correct. His empire was defeated. Pat Robertson and all them evangelicals together wouldn't amount to a pimple on a real Oracle's behind.

Pardon me while I address the pagan god issue, a little off course but the ship's already docked in my opinion.

There are many gods. There's a god for every purpose under heaven. Here's one of the gods I've noticed. He didn't have a name so I just call him George.

George is the KENO god that determines if your ticket is a winner or the usual loser. Around the KENO parlor George is called upon with great frequency and to little benefit. George is just plain unreliable. But George is all we have when we're palying KENO so he receives our prayers and supplications.

One day I was playing a KENO slot maching. A young woman, 30ist sat beside me and heard me softly praying to George. After a while she asked me if I was talking to her. I said, "no, I'm talking to George." "Where's he at" she inquired after noticing we were the only ones in the area. "Inside my machine" I replied. "George is the god that determines if our numbers get drawn."

A short time later I hit a small ticket, 6 out of 6 for $400. She was impressed and especially so when I told her that I never hit anything without praying to George. Sure enough she too began to pray to Geroge. And as you guessed she hit a big ticket, 8 out of 9 I thing, over $1,000. She insisted I take a $5 tip for helping her by telling her about the KENO god, George.

TKH commented above that "A religious candidate is more likely to be a charitable (selfless) candidate for public office. A non-religious candidate is likely to be very self-centered and unwise."

This is a bigoted generalization and it is simply not true based on all available evidence. As Exhibit A we can point to former Presidential candidate Pat Robertson and his comments about Katrina being caused by divine retribution for our sins, coupled with his ongoing claims that God talks to him. Exhibit B, George W. Bush sending 21,000 more troops to Iraq in a last ditch effort to assuage his own ego against the advice of pretty much everybody including his family's closest advisers; this after starting a war on false premises and committing a geopolitical strategic blunder of epic proportions. Exhibit C, Congressman Randy "Duke" Cunningham (R-CA), who, after pleading guilty to taking $2.4 million in bribes, spent the day in prayer and talked about a new chapter in his life – a "chapter of service to God" (but don't worry, he'll probably pull a Colson and be out before long).

Why do religious people demand a respect for their beliefs that they have not earned?

The STORY of the virgin Mary can be used to determine the attitude about reproductive processes at the time. The notion that Abraham fathered Jews and Arabs confirms that. By themselves the two ridiculous ideas they tell us that people were, (are) so dumb they don't realize that the woman contributes most to the child and not the father that supplies a tiny sperm that has been synthesized recrntly. The notion of a FATHER is stupid to a fault when one realizes that men are unnecessary.

The son of Mary was of specie God and Mary wasn't. OK, the Roamn empire was fathered by a god and mothered by a wolf.
god + wolf = man woman is unnecessary. What stupid jerks.

TKH,
Thank you for clarifying. I must be reading the wrong books written by westerners about Mary, the Blessed One by God Almighty. And also, my personal observations in Catholic predominant countries, where the statues of Mary seems more or equal to that of Jesus PBUH, and she was prayed to. I need to read more books about Mary then, and her status in the Christian pantheon.

Peace be with you.

Dear Jihadist,

You stated: "Mary is elevated to divinity status by the early Christians to accomodate the reverence of the great female Goddesses that Romans and other pagans of the time has."

What you, Jihadist, have stated is untrue. Mary is elevated in respect (not divinity) because 1) she was chosen by God to bear Jesus Christ and she said "Yes" to this immense responsibility when she had the complete free will to say "No" instead; and 2) She was the only person on the face of the earth worthy enough to be the mother of Jesus Christ who was God Incarnate. This does not make her "divine" or a god. This gives her the due respect that God Himself would expect of each and every one of us toward the one woman HE chose.

Understand that when one willfully distorts the truth about Mary, it is a terrible offense to the One who chose Mary to be the Theotokus. Analogically, when one willfully distorts the truth about his own mother, it is a disgrace to his own father. I am appalled.

This is a lesson for politicians who lie about their religion or abuse or distort religion for self-gain.

Sincerely,
TKH

Dear StarHawk, first I would like to apologize for my anger at what I saw as your patronizing attitude towards individualized visualization of the Creative Force which binds us all. My friend, Susie, the Wiccan has suffered abuse most of her life. I do not know what it is that draws these animals to her, but I pray that her torment stop, and that she be allowed to live out her existence as a loving mother to her children, and eventually her grandchildren and on until it is her time. Having to endure her pain without running away from her....treating her, as the rape crisis counselors suggested, as if nothing had happened was among the 10 worst experiences of my life...and I think I have had my share... I was on the *outside* looking in. For me it was relatively easy...that realization alone made it all worse...now, I agree with the premise of your position statement. STILL I CALL TO YOUR ATTENTION THE QUESTIONABLE TIMING OF THIS SUDDEN MORAL INSIGHT INTO THE EVILS OF REMOVING THE SEPARATIONS BETWEEN CHURCH AND STATE. CAN YOU NOT SEE IT? THIS HAS BEEN ALLOWED TO GO ON FOR AT LEAST ONE GENERATION. HITLER'S *YOUTH* HAS BEEN RESURRECTED. HOW CAN IT NOW BE CUT OFF? WHY SHOULD IT NOW BE CUT OFF? TO LOCK IN THE ADVANTAGES? BECAUSE SENATOR OBAMA WALKS THE TALK? CAN YOU SEE THAT POINT OF VIEW LADY? LET THOSE WHO STARTED IT STOP AND THE REACTION TO THEIR ACTION WILL CEASE AS WELL. DO NOT TREAT THE SYMPTOMS, TREAT THE CAUSE OF THE DISEASE. I DO not know what Senator Obama wants to do with his campaign because I have avoided the 08 Campaign Hype. Politics is not a spectator sport. We have the 06 Midterm mandates to pursue.
Be well, and thank you for your well reasoned perspectives on our little part of the Universe. For the Children.

Thank you for your very populist outlook on life in these United States. I agree with you that if politicians had to spend a lot of time with the poorest people, perhaps their focus would change. I would hope so.

I have a suspicion that if this country were truly a moral country we would not have any rich folks. They would be too busy helping others.

I'm not aware of any way to stop people from believing what the believe. Even killing them wont stop it other than remove them for publically proclaiming what they "say" they believe. I'm not aware of any way to determine that what anyone says they believe is what they actually believe believe. So the notion of a "faith" test for public office holders can only lead to liars in office, people who claim to believe that which is popular just to win votes.

I'm pleased with the responses to the question because what I just wrote is what I see as the general consensus of opinion and I agree.

Starhawk,

Thanks for posting your pro-civility admonition to your own essay. It's nice to know that at least one panelist actually reads the posted comments to what they wrote.

You wrote: "In a truly democratic system, religion should not be a barrier to holding public office. Yet I doubt if any out-of-the-broom-closet Pagan--or unapologetic atheist, for that matter—could get elected to any office beyond purely local elections. I would love to be proved wrong."

Bill Press said the same thing in his current "Guest Voices" piece.

I hope this will prove you both wrong: Vermont has just elected Bernie Sanders to the U.S. Senate from Vermont. In his long political career Bernie has never suggested that he has any religious affiliation. It's generally considered that he has no religious (as opposed to moral or ethical) beliefs.

Of course Bernie's religious beliefs or lack thereof were never discussed. People in northern New England react negatively to the injection of religion into politics.

Non-believers, pagans, Wiccans, and so on will do just fine in politics up here. I'm not even sure that Bernie would have lost if he'd taken
a hatchet to organized religion. People just like him.

I hope this makes you feel better about one part of the country at least.

Interesting what TKH wrote. That is benchmarking of which religion is acceptable for aspirants of public office to adhere to. That is is religiously exclusive - excluding pagans and atheists etc.

Wiccans' beliefs predates all monotheistic religions. So do the Great Mother Goddess of the Earth. The sex of God is never defined in Islam, nor is man made in his image. Which brings us to which image of God - male or female? Is God male? In Islamic belief, God created Adam and Eve as two seperate halfs, not from Adam's ribs.

TKH is right about Mary. She is mentioned more times in the Al Quran than in the Bible. And Muslims tradionally believe that Jesus PBUH is a vegetarian etc. But that does not mean I should dismiss the Wiccans just because I am a Muslim.

Mary is elevated to divinity status by the early Christians to accomodate the reverence of the great female Goddesses that Romans and other pagans of the time has.

And I am going off topic, with apologies.

.

Dear Ms. Starhawk,

You stated: "If I were making the rules, anyone who ran for public office would have to complete a qualifying course that included a week living on the streets with the homeless, a month living on a welfare budget, six months of volunteer work in an inner-city classroom or emergency room or post-disaster cleanup, and an anonymous week in jail."

I applaud your intent. A religious candidate is more likely to be a charitable (selfless) candidate for public office. A non-religious candidate is likely to be very self-centered and unwise. The interesting thing about Judaism, Islam and Christianity is that they put a lot of credence in what I term as the books of the Old Testament (of the Holy Bible) which are full of guidance for those who wish to be wise. And, the New Testament books (the "Good News" and Epistles of Holy Bible) are full of examples for those who wish to be truly charitable and good. These books are tried and true - in writing for several thousands of years.

Even in the Koran, which came many hundreds of years later, there is mention of Jesus Christ [although considered in Islam as only a very important prophet] and His Mother, the Blessed Virgin Mary [who is highly revered by many Muslims and who Christians revere as "Theotokos" as was defined by the early Catholic Church in the Council of Ephesus of 431 A.D. and who has appeared in various apparitions since then as witnessed by many thousands of people (e.g., Fatima, Portugal and Alexandria, Egypt (apparition recorded on TV) among others) and as duly recorded in other places throughout recent history.] Let us not mistake my statements: Mary is not a "god". She is a most splendid, holy, pure and loving human creation of God.

Why do so-called "wise" people choose to ignore them and history? Why do people choose to dismiss them before they have taken the time to read and understand them? Why do people believe that real religion is that which they personally discover while not having any written and widely-professed proof of their personal "religion" like the items of proof mentioned above?

I wonder if some of our non-religious candidates are a bit prideful of themselves believing that they are great because they, personally, have found the answers that no one else has seemed to have found while ignoring the fact that the answers have been in writing for several thousands of years.

I think that all of us have deep in our heart the knowledge of true good. Some of us know and accept it when we see or hear Him. Many of us choose not to.

Sincerely,
TKH

....and I look forward to a secular Wiccan becoming President of the United States.

Why not? Congress now has the first Muslim congressman and the first female speaker. Now, that is progress, is that not?

And Victoria my friend, don't let my other friend, Bgone, gets to you with his regular taunts of God. Surely he knows Allah is the Arabic word for God.

getting muslims to follow their religions as prescribed hardly affects the foreign policy of bush that led to 9-11-
your reasoning is a mystery to me bgone-

ive been accused of being a bearded old man- and other unusual things- but so far republican strategist is the most off course interpertation of my views ive come across-

bgone you are always full of surprises-

thank you faith thats the first time ive gotten such positive feedback-

i dont want to be so hard on ms starhawk-
its the idea of bandaids on gaping wounds to me-

honestly bgone the tv must have been off when bush called for prayer for the 19 saudis-
however it is interesting to note that there were scores of saudis flown out of america right after 9-11 compliments of the us government(and first class too) so i cant rule out where bush's sympathies truly are---

Thanks Victoria, I am truly enlightened by your wisdom.

I agree that religion has become a dumping block for politicians and their agents to redirect attention and blame away from themselves.

It is one of the reasons separation of church and religion is necessary.

Cheers and have a nice day
Peace

Victoria said "suicide is an unforgivable sin in Islam"

If we could only get Muslims into Islam all the problems like 9-11 are solved.

Victoria, are you making it up as you go?

Mr Bush sent us to "churches, temples, synagogues and mosques to pray" for the repose of the souls of the 19 that "accidentally" killed themselves in the name of Alla, 9-11.

Victoria must be a Republican political strategists. Keep going, Bubba is pretty dumb. He'll believe you.

many activities carried out by people who are identified by their religion are not religiously but politically motivated-
as ba'al pointed out- religion can be used for political ends-

in islam it is clear that if you kill one epron unjustly it is as if you have killed the wohole wolrd of people- there are no justifications for suicide bombers- there is no such thing as 72 virgins in the Qur'an- they simply do not exist- the idea came from an old sheikh a long time ago and was dredged up by some other sheikhs to motivate poor disenfranchised and confused young men (mostly the demographic of sucicide bombers) to acts that have no basis in the religion-
i can find no mulsim who will state that they will go to heaven- it is

there are very clear rules of war laid out in islam- and the main one in engagement is that it may only be taken up if an agressor comes into ones land- then a muslim has the right defend their home- but if the aggressor leaves- then hostilities must end-

people rarely look at the rule books when moved by their (justified or not) anger and passions-

for instance the sinn feins (IRA's political wing) in an effort for self determination- are ready to sign an agreement with the orange (protestant british) party agreeing to respect the police and government rule of the british protestants- not many sinn feins are actually very happy to recognize the aithority of protestant policeman in their neighborhoods- but its been their physical reality for so long and so much blood has been shed that they have just been beaten down and want peace at any cost now- it seems on te surface like a religious issue- irish catholics versus british protestants- but it really never has been-
it is an occupying force that hasnt left- and the reaction by the indigenous population-

what one needs to look at is not the religious differentations that are being promoted as a distraction- but the political motivations behind the aggressors or occupiers-

so much attention is spent on accusing and blaming the victims that no one ever seems to ask the real question- what would drive a person to such an incredible desperation-

until those questions are addressed in a valid way- and the reasons for the bombings are addressed- it seems unlikely that they will magically stop-

suicide is non-negotiable in islam- it is not considered martyrdom to aggressively seek out an enemy and blow up their children and women-
non-combatants are off limits even in the throes of a justified war- so there is no justification for it at all.
peace

KUDOS to ms starhawk for popping in and regulating her post- although it seems every post in these boards ends up off topic eventually---

Dear Ms. Starhawk,
If an out-of-the-broom closet pagan (as you stated) happened to get elected to a high office, I believe that this person would, out of necessity, eventually come to know and admit the Truth that so many choose unadvisedly to ignore. It would be refreshing to see a pagan become a convert to Christianity on the way to elected office! That would be a great example of how wise a future leader can be.

Sincerely,
TKH

Thank you madam

Can I suggest to simply remove the offending posts...

Have a nice day
Faith

Hey people--please try to remember to keep this discussion respectful, and at least vaguely on topic. Go ahead and insult me, if you must--but please don't insult each others' Gods or faiths. I'm interested in hearing people speak from your own experiences, no matter how different from mine. Then this forum can be a place where all of us broaden our understanding, and not a shouting match. Thanks, Starhawk

Thank you Victoria for the explanation on media fashion of charity.

I have learned recently that charity reflects an appeal to the spirit, but the media redirects attention from the spirit to a material image associated with the celebrity rather than the one in need.

You raised an interesting issue on suicide, I have learned generally from media information that those suicide bombers are martyrs for a cause, and their deed guarantees them a safe passage to paradise. If this is true, then there must various forms of suicide. Also recently, women have joined the ranks of martyrdom for a cause. But these martyrs are not just killing themselves; they target innocent civilians as well. What's your take on this?

Religion these days is used to carry out political smear campaigns.

Just look at recent (and now completely discredited) Fox News reports on Barrack Obama. Even if the reports were true (and they turn out to be deliberate lies) so what? The perpetrators know that they are tapping into a deep vein of prejudice to attack someone they fear.

Religion is a very very negative force in American politics.

faith - well i know that as a christian bono should follow the precepts of the bible which state that when you give dont let your left hand know what your right hand is doing- and if you are getting the accolades of men you are getting your payment and will not have stored up treasures i heaven-

i think he has good intentions but perhaps there is an element of the ego driving these intentions too-

if you are being sincere in your asessment i have to agree-

JOY- suicide is an unforgivable sin in islam- the destruction of the greatest gift ALLAH can give us- the strongest ingratitude-
also you misunderstand- ALLAH is not a man-
ALLAH is non-gender specific- truly an egalitarian entity

salaams

Victoria
Do you think Bono and other celebrities are benefiting from their roles on charities? I think when they appear on the Media, the interest is shift from charity to themselves, and therefore gaining personal benefit charity. It is exploitation of others' pain for their gain, like parasites...while at the same time makes poverty a political entity..

Likewise Bob, your ramblings are a load of nonsense...

Faith, please don't comment to me. I have no interest in your opinions. Thank you.

Victoria hunny, you need a new god and you come to the right place. If you act fast enough you migh avoid suicide in the name of that big sissy god allah. Allah is so puny he cant blow his own gas, needs Victoria types to set on his fat belly.

she may be very fair and large hearted- but that doesnt mean she is wise- i just found the suggestion rife with complications and only tking into account the benefit for the supposed future politician-

i find it really irresponsible and unrealistic- in real life if you took some coddled well fed politico and put them o the street-(if there was any degree of genuine experience- which of course there would be many safety nets not available to true street people) unless you gave them a body guard- they would be fresh meat to many street people-

but there is the very basic idea that they are experiencing a fantasy to relive at cocktail parties later- there is no way to infuse someone with the real hopelessness and frustrations that these people feel daily- and without that overpowering feeling of hopelessness- a few days of discomfort and inconvenience is hardly going to inculcate any real ability to make laws- as a matter of fact- a little knowledge is a dangerous ting- and they may come away thinking they understand something which may preclude them from having any sense of reality and actually hurt the downtrodden more than a self-admitted neophyte on the subject who may seek advice from those who actually know-

o well ive babbled enough- i just get frustrated when these people come around because they never seem to realize that everyone knows theyre there for the photo op- and off they go-

and as far as spending a week i jail- that is beyond ridiculous-

you can have what seems like a good heart and questionable motivations- but it doesnt confer wisdom-

your lnk is radical ill have to look at it again
peace
hoesntly i never go off like this
pe

Thanks Victoria

You are an experience charitable worker and good on you. I know what you mean for people who are there to help themselves. I witnessed this with one of my workers, he was very happy when a helpee achieved a need by his advocacy. The trouble is, he only helps people he knows, and in turns he gets his objectives done from those in office who know him. I challenged him about the validity of his contribution, but he is an old man he doesn’t know any other way. So I just keep him to help his mates which are also making sense for him.

However, I don't know Starhawk to make a judgment but she seems to have a wider acceptance of difference by accommodating all religions in the same view. I think she is a fair person...

Anyway, I have a website for my organisation over here, and I update findings and research from our community work.

http://gihtrust.co.nz/

For those who blame religion for war and atrocities, read this:

More Christians became targets of sectarian violence because of US and UK's War of Iraq.

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2169190.ece

i just made it up now- but ive had a lifetime of inconsistent do gooders that come in guns blazing for a minute and then off they go and leave someone else to pick up the pieces- of the emotipnal wreckage they leave behind and it is one of my big pet peeves-

if you really want to do service you dont need to write about it talk about it make sure you get credit for it- the ones who talk about it are always the ones too busy talking to actually do anything-

theres actually a phenomenon of givers high- the good feeling that one gets from helping- i dont know what kind of universal laws are under operation here- but the basis of jsut about every philosophy is good best done in discretion- actually by flouting the actions- you are sometimes embarrassing those you want to help-

this spiritual showmanship is really distasteful to me-

Victoria, you sound confident with your explanation of spiritual masturbation. How did you find out about it if you don't mind me asking?

STARHAWKS proposal is a pleasant sounding fantasy-
but its what i call spiritual masturbation-
im sure youll feel good about yourself after you propose this- but what about the people whose actual lives would be affected by interacting with the phony homeless person? who needs someone showing up to do volunteer work for a college course?

having looked at her website- these very tiny and limited activities are suggested because they are her own limited experiences- really- the idea of imposing a pseudo-suffering that is easily escapable is such a juvenile and middle class idea-

homeless people deserve dignity too- what youre suggesting is as real as playing a part in a play- and just as effective in any lessons one would learn-

ive seen for years the cycles of do-gooders- show up for a minute- pat themselves on the back-bring their friends and children around to witnes their activities-(or put up showy websites)

when you play in people lives to make a resume for yourself- (or have others proclaim it for you)
you are only serving yourslef.

any politician that would take part in such a phony will get a phony understanding from their phony experience- and from the arrogance of imagining they 'know' the situation now- will probably end up doing a lot more harm than good from it-

anonymous week in jail-indeed- what is 'anonymous' about it when you know youll be bailed out in a week?

she shows a complete lack of understanding and real compassion for the situations she is presenting-
and by the way- my own resume- is years longer- much deeper and i speak for the 'downtrodden'

believe me- people in real situations have seen these kinds come and go and can smell them from far off- theyll smile at you and tell you what they know you want to hear- because your egos are so inflated you are easily flattered-

it is really no big deal at all to get arrested and know bail is coming- or do some clean upwork when you have a comfy home to go to-

save us from these spiritual masturbators---

Bob...
You obviously have hang-ups about the Catholics on the one hand, and then you decide religion has nothing to do with the topic you are so passionate about. The former is a fundamental right and approved by your constitution, and the Pope has a right to address his followers irrespective of where they are, it is none of your business.

Second, your claims on 'evolutionary psychology' and 'values evolve through culture and hardwiring' are a load of rubbish.

Try something you can explain...

http://share-international.org/

Revelation ~ revolution ~ certainly the time all religions have been pointing to is now ~ we all have ears to hear and eyes to see ~ some are more ready than others. Time's up.

Faith, I don't mean to be rude, but I don't have time to get side tracked in these discussions.

Check out the current state of evolutionary psychology to find out more about how values evolve through culture and "hardwiring" over time.

Just one obvious point. . . fundamental values come from mothering, then fathering, etc. The parents need not be religious, their instinct for love, nurturing, protecting, security, self-devleopment etc., inculcate the "value" adding process. The hardwiring, like the capacity for language, is carried throughout the species (in fact in other life forms) quite naturally. All of this is beautiful in and of itself (we all know it) and it has absolutely nothing to do with religion.

Thanks.

A clarification about catholicism, if I may.

I meant above that the percentage of catholics holding office doesn't mean much nationally in terms of directly influencing elected officials.

However, of course Roman Catholic church leadership in Rome attemped to use this demographic reality to their advantage at every opportunity.

In 2004, the current Pope energized American catholic bishops in a campaign against Sen. John Kerry (a practicising Roman Catholic) because of the Senator's public opinions which did not concurr with Church dogma.

The message was sent to the fundamentalist catholic population (about a third of Americans who say they are Catholic) through American church leadership that politicians like Sen. Kerry would be denied the sacrements of the church is they did not conform to the former Office of the Inquisition in Rome on these dogmatic matters.

So while the current Pope has directly intruded in the election of an American president and, to at least some extent, succesfully so, this does not imply that the Pope or any other leadership of Roman Catholicism exercise any direct influence over those elected officials who claim to be "Catholic". (But this is a point worth looking into. How many Catholic American elected officials comply with Catholic dogma on public issues?)

I suggest that moderate catholics must make it very clear to American church leadership that such intrustion into the public sector is intolerable to American catholics. (I won't discuss the obvious: sexual child abuse by church sanctioned criminals.)

Just wanted to be clear that American Catholics are powerful in both leadership and among constituencies and they have an obligation, as Americans, to discipline their church leadership on matters of Constitutional separation.

Don't mean to be pendantic, thank you.

Bon: "Human values come from human beings, not institutions, religious or otherwise. "

HOW?

It is a general statement – what values to one is not the same as the other, or who sanction