Co-founder, American Learning Institute for Muslims
Sherman A. Jackson is a professor of Arabic and Islamic Studies, a visiting professor of law, and a professor of Afro-American Studies at the University of Michigan , Ann Arbor . He has served as Executive Director for the Center of Arabic Study Abroad (CASA) in Cairo , Egypt , is a member of the U.S.-Muslim World Advisory Committee of the U.S. Institute of Peace , and a co-founder of the American Learning Institute for Muslims (ALIM). The “On Faith” panelist is also a former member of the Fiqh Council of North America , past president of the Sharî‘ah Scholars' Association of North America (SSANA) and a past trustee of the North American Islamic Trust (NAIT).
In addition to numerous articles on Islamic law, theology and history, Jackson is the author of Islamic Law and the State: The Constitutional Jurisprudence of Shihâb al-Dîn al-Qarâfî , On the Boundaries of Theological Tolerance in Islam: Abû Hâmid al-Ghazâlî's Faysal al-Tafriqa and, most recently, the controversial Islam and Blackamerican: Looking Towards the Third Resurrection . Jackson has lectured throughout the US and in numerous countries abroad. He has also taught at the University of Texas at Austin , Indiana University, Wayne State University and was recently offered a full-professorship at Stanford University , which he declined.
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Sherman Jackson
Co-founder, American Learning Institute for Muslims
Sherman A. Jackson is a professor of Arabic and Islamic Studies, a visiting professor of law, and a professor of Afro-American Studies at the University of Michigan , Ann Arbor . He has served as Executive Director for the Center of Arabic Study Abroad (CASA) in Cairo , Egypt , is a member of the U.S.-Muslim World Advisory Committee of the U.S. Institute of Peace , and a co-founder of the American Learning Institute for Muslims (ALIM).
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Below are comemnts by a reader of my article on Islamic mumbo-jumbo. This readers explain about all organized religions:
"I expose the falsehoods of all man made religions. These religions are just for business purpose. Arab religion is a derivative of Hindu religion. In Hindu religion the religious class is asking the masses to worship the stones. Shiv linga and parvati stones are the famous stones. Shiv linga is a male sexual organ and parvati is a female sexual organ. The Arabs have taken the parvati stone to mecca and calling it a holy stone came directly from paradise .How stupid and ignorant are the followers of this religion. The Hindus are spinning around the stone in India seven times clockwise and the stupid followers of Arab religions have just made one change....They made it to anticlockwise....What a great change .This parvati stone is a outstretched vagina, through which head of a baby is delivering out. The followers of Arab religions including the converts are saluting and surrendering their heads to this stone three or five times a day. They are kissing this stone (Parvati vagina and head of baby)during their very holy holy pilgrimage. If you will disclose to them this reality of worshiping the stone, they will desperately reply.. "no we are not worshiping stone, we are worshiping our god through this stone". What an intelligent answer . Stupid followers of a sadist god. He create them and asking them to raise their asses many times a day.
These poor followers are scarred of these gods. He has threatened them if they will not worship him, he will screw them in hereafter life. At other place this god has used another weapon "sex in the paradise",72 virgins for men. But no body ask this god,what about females, what they will get? I think Arab god is gay god, jealous of females .
Must be a new topic up, with the quiet. Further adventures in Frank attempting to people he doesn't understand (or tell when he sees one, apparently, )doubtless to recur."
I thought he said spells DON'T work. :)
The further adventures of Frank. Hmm. Sounds to me like a comic strip of some kind. What do you think? :)
Must be a new topic up, with the quiet. Further adventures in Frank attempting to people he doesn't understand (or tell when he sees one, apparently, )doubtless to recur.
I doubt I had you in stitches, because it's very hard to imagine there being any laughter in those words... words that turn even laughter into some kind of shame-based *attack.*
You *better* laugh.
We say our Lady says, among other things, 'Let there be mirth *and* reverence within you.'
Personal fave of mine.
If my words here have brought some mirth, well, blessed be... But I don't think that's what that is.
The 'laughter' I hear from you is, a) not happening, and, b) that of a small man attempting to dismiss from his sight someone telling him he is not a follower of a book in a 'war' that he somehow hasn't gone to sign up for...
But a man in pain who was promised by someone that they would make it easy if he obeyed someone...
Laughing like an attack at the idea that his heart and mind are his own.
Would you like a sillier costume? I'm not sure you're really laughing yet.
*waving to Mujahid.* Tea's great. :) Hope you don't mind the beer: if my ancestors hadn't had beer, we'd all have died of nasty microbes ...as would anybody too 'pure' to know what happens when you put water in a jar in Europe if you want to have a town. ;)
Anyway, try to pardon my (our?) countrymen, they seem to have no warrior-Gods, and are thus shocked and full of denial about what happens when you have a war. :)
Actually, I think much of the nonsense is about people wanting to identify with the 'brave protectors' and thus being too-easily-led by the humanity-bankrupt.
You are wonderful people; I Like your outlook on life and your world view; and I don't mind sharing a round of tea with you all(beer is out of the quetion though.) Peace...
We *all* have power. Books neither grant it nor take it away, nor define it.
I can see a certain bitterness in conquered peoples... if you're as Irish too as your name claims. This is the head-game. Offering enemies and shame for assimilation purposes.
Someone offered you Islam as an enemy, and Christianity as the 'unquestionable good guys.'
And anything that doesn't fit that feeds into the shame and aggression... thus why you can't seem to process what people tell you about themselves...
You set up an impossible definition of 'magic' in order to discredit the idea that anyone has any power at all except for to be defined by what comes in books.
You may not admit to being Christian (tonight) but you quote the Bible often enough as though 'laying down the law.' Can't seem to tell people from words you can attribute to 'them' even if you can't accept that people are *not* a monolithic 'The Islamic' just for disagreeing with the form of Christianity you won't admit to being in lockstep with.
If you aren't Christian, why are you so insistent on totally ignoring Christianity's history of doing the exact same kinds of 'evil' that you believe is structurally only-inherent to Islam?
What would you like? Some miracle cure for global warming which you'd only take to 'prove' humanity isn't screwing up on a mass scale?
If you do come from Native Americans, you should know it's not seemly to boast about such things.
Or smart to demand them, I think I recall hearing. :)
You say I 'defend Islam.' No, actually, I don't. I defend *humanity.* Even yours.
Because this hatred and blindness of yours is *poison.* It's certainly poisoned *my* ancestors for far too long. This is where we start to make it right.
Pain cannot be made to magically-go away... for long. And I think what I'm speaking to right now, Frank, is your pain.
Some of this *can* go away, with a touch.
If you let the world touch you.
This is one reason I don't approve of either 'side' in this 'battle for the world's soul...'
Who said the 'winner' could *have* it?
You demand a 'show of force.' For the same reason as you think this would be to 'get' 'four billion converts,' ...I would say, 'No.'
What you *may* have is a touch. You're a member of the human race, and so am I, and even this columnist above, which you may not have noticed I actually disagreed with on certain major points, if you hadn't already decided I must be the 'enemy...' These are humans, too.
So can you be.
You want to see 'power,' you must first think, 'power to what?'
As you deny the humanity of others, use words merely to defame, rather than to understand, so you reduce yourself from a living human being, into a ball of pained reactions... With a mouth.
If you want to 'not fear 'islamics' ' then, *touch.* Go meet some Muslims.
They're people. As I've said repeatedly, if the nightmare 'Red Dawn' kind of scenario were to happen, I'd be right there with you.
But it's not.
If it did, then it wouldn't be time to obsess over it now, anyway.
You fear oppression, coercion, torture, death.
I've been exposed to all these things, personally. I *don't* hate my Christian neighbors because of it. I just don't accept it when Christians claim that Christianity is unquestionably-good, because I know much better.
Cause I've tended the wreckage.
"When I was showing me
My screaming sock,
That's real
I screamed.
I was scared.
When my killer came
I was the Sun."
Fights happen, Frank. Sometimes you lose.
No reason to obsess about the universe being 'imperfect.'
Especially if you do nothing but make the world a scary sock-puppet to scare yourself with.
You want your magic, ...get your head out of the 'bad medicine.'
Breathe. Look. Think.
Stop seeing the world as defined by rival written authorities.
Once again, Frank, you aren't even reading. You have shown zero comprehension or retention or recognition of the communication you've been offered.
You refuse to accept that just because you decided we must think we can or should control the world's minds or undo the damage you seem to insist humans continue to do... doesn't mean that's actually what's being claimed. Certainly not by me, or Wiccan, or anyone else here. As for people trying to sell *us* books, well, they can say what they would like, I suppose.
This doesn't mean they speak for us or the community, or that Ceremonial Magick is the same thing as Wicca and Satanism just cause you find life is simpler, that way.
What *is* simpler is that I'm not 'Defending Islam' when I say that being a hater won't help. I don't approve of Islam any more than I approve of Christianity in the terms you choose to define things. I don't share your paranoia that 'Islamics' are going to take over America or something, because you know darn well that wouldn't be permitted.
I've said from the beginning, I see no difference between that and the Christianity you keep referring to.
You say you're not Christian, now? Could have fooled me with all the insistence Christianity's the only right way.
Tell, us, then, what *are* you?
And, as for the witchvox site, of course I'm not embarrassed. It's a site that shows things that may be of interest to Pagans, not the Pope or something. Your link just led me to the homepage, is all, and whatever you quoted was not apparent there.
"when wiccans say they can effect the earth and the people on it - subject to the command to do no harm then i consider putting them to the test. fix the air, clean the oceans, eliminate global warming, make everyone love everyone else. and if you dont do it, i say you are a fraud."
I say you set up a false standard in order to *call* people frauds.
I'd be more inclined to talk about when the likes of Falwell and Robertson 'pray' for disasters to happen to, say, Disneyworld and getting their own compounds hit instead...
Or 'praying' for disaster to befall New Orleans to get at gays and... where the gay pride parade was being the only place *not* to get slammed.
I've said it repeatedly, magic, as the ancestors you claim knew, is *part* of the Earth, not in opposition to it. You can't expect that to cause global warming to *not happen* while doing the opposite materially. That just doesn't make sense.
You can't *magic people into loving each other.*
That's probably why the idea of coercive, controlling magic is so laughable to Wiccans... unlike Christians who apparently pray for others to be mind-controlled every day.
You seem to say we must have free will, when it's time to blame someone for something your book doesn't like, but apparently pray for it to be taken away, from yourselves and others, ...all the time.
When it comes to magic, you just don't get it.
I'd say, ...if you have such faith in your Jesus coming back to end the world and punish nonbelievers, ...why does he seem to need so much *help from warmongers, profiteers, and abusers?*
A terror suspect hoarded Jihadist propaganda on his home computer in Bolton, including an article by Osama bin Laden's deputy, a court has heard.
An anti-Western diatribe by al Qaida's Dr Ayman al-Zawahiri calling for the murder of those who disagree with extreme Islamic views was found in the possession of Omar Altimimi, 37, Manchester Crown Court heard.
Altimimi, who faces six charges of possession of the material for a purpose connected with terrorism, also held an article by radical Palestinian writer Sheikh Abu Mohammed al-Maqdese, the jury heard.
Several books by al-Maqdese, who preaches that democracy is always wrong, were found in the Hamburg flat of 9/11 ringleader Mohammed Atta.
Professor Michael Clarke, an expert in terrorism and defence studies at Kings College, London, told the jury a terrorist "organisational chart" also found on Altimimi's computer was adapted to apply to the UK.
The "chilling" terror manual advocated assassinating Government officials and bombing nightclubs, mixed schools and churches.
The "extensive checklist" of how to set up a terror network had echoes of the infamous Encyclopaedia of Jihad - al-Qaeda's guide to perpetrating Holy War - Professor Clarke said.
"It is the organisational doctrine of a viable terrorist organisation," he added.
Altimimi claims no knowledge of the material and has pleaded not guilty to all charges relating to the alleged offences, said to have taken place between February and June last year. The trial, scheduled to last another two weeks, continues.
Ok. Frank... Just because *you* can't tell the difference between Wicca and ceremonial magick Crowley, does not mean these things are the same.
I haven't seen Wiccan 'doing any harm,' here, Frank. I see you trying to say:
"ocult books and satan worship and wicca and witches and warlocks and yes the lady and the wicca reed."
Are somehow all the same thing, just cause someone *told* you they were. You don't know what you're looking at, even when being told better. I've spent a great deal of my time explaining this to you, but even after being corrected, you persist in the defamation.
Why should I believe you about anything else?
Did it ever occur to you that the world's just not that simple?
Your link doesn't go to what you quoted, but did it ever occur to you that people who end up dealing with all kinds of ignorant accusations might want to know about some of the content?
And, apparently the History channels here aren't showing what you're talking about today, but again, did it ever occur to you that the common thread in these shows is *amusing you with dark tales that really say nothing?*
But surely, as you already stated you know everything there is to know about Islam and Muslims, you need not ask me questions.
And surely, as you stated.. "you like to be a jihadist, then you are a terrorist and why should anyone accept anything you have to say?", you don't have to read my posts. That is a serious allegation Mr. Collins, calling someone a terrorist who is not ...libel and slander.
I'm into Greater Jihad, but then, as you already know Islam and Muslims so well, I don't have to explain to you the concept of Greater and Lesser Jihad, mujahid and mujahidin.
If you will give up your belief that Wiccans are like Flora, Fauna, and Merryweather in Sleeping Beauty you'll be much happier. And you should thank the Lady that I don't have those powers; I'd make you grow up, and that's always a painful process. Blessings, Frank.
Witchcraft? Most Muslim nations imposed death penalty for it?
Pagans/Wiccans are not warlocks and wizards and witches of the Harry Potter series.
Pagans and Wiccans are closer in beliefs to the animists/polytheists of Indonesia and Malaysia. None were given the death penalty for their beliefs. Never mind the Bataks of Indonesia used to be cannibals, and the Dyaks of Borneo (Indonesia and Malaysia) used to be headhunters.
Indonesian and Malaysian Muslims do go to traditional medicine men and women known as "bomohs" and "dukuns" - ones you would say to engage in witchcraft. They have a deep knowledge of herbs and plants for curative purposes and effectively used them for many ailments. Biotechnologists studied and are studying their potions for applications in modern medicines.
long-time lurker, rare poster, but anon, are you a deedeedee or just an A$$ h0l3? You do nothing but b!t(h and you never offer a solution but you disrespect all those who do. As for your battle with wiccan, you're losing and we all can see that.
Most Muslim nations still have and enforce the death penalty for witchcraft. You may start working for PEACE in those nations. This should be a start for you. And double? try sevenfold"
Anon-chan,
You have not told me the best way to work for peace. You obviously find my way inadequate. Teach, so that I may learn.
Most Muslim nations still have and enforce the death penalty for witchcraft. You may start working for PEACE in those nations. This should be a start for you. And double? try sevenfold..
"The section referring to violations of the right to life of persons or groups of persons notes the following, inter alia: women accused of witchcraft and buried alive by government soldiers; failure to present to the jury mitigating evidence - a history of severe physical, sexual and emotional abuse - in a death penalty case involving a woman; traditional practices, in particular so-called "honour killings", targeting women; deliberate attacks against refugees and internally displaced persons, particularly in the context of situations of internal conflict and unrest; violence, attacks and extrajudicial killings of members of indigenous communities; threats and killings of journalists because of their work to uncover corruption, organised crime and human rights violations; threats against lawyers handling human rights cases; death threats or the extrajudicial killing of persons because of their sexual orientation. On the last point, its stated that it is unacceptable that in some states homosexual relationships are still punishable by death and that the continuing prejudice against members of sexual minorities and especially the criminalisation of matters of sexual orientation increase the social stigmatisation of these persons, making them more vulnerable to violence and human rights abuses, including death threats and violations of the right to life, which are often committed in a climate of impunity. Its also noted that the often tendentious media coverage of this subject further contributes to creating an atmosphere of impunity and indifference about crimes committed against members of sexual minorities."
Yes, I am now back home and will only be at the office tommorrow. Have quite recovered from the Frisco bug. That city is as lovely as ever.
Hello Frank Collins
I am rather confused now, as to whether you are a Christian, or not. But surely, if you are an American Indian ( a "feather Indian as you call yourself"), you would have some feel and understanding for the pagans/wiccans whose beliefs are really closer to the traditional beliefs of American Indians.
And surely as an American Indian, a minority, you would also have some feel and empathy for all minorities in the US, regardless of their ethnicity and religious affiliations
Anyway, must step out. Consider, Frank, that your 'expectations' of what 'magic' 'should' do are mirrored in your own superstitious idea that ongoing problems we're contributing to will 'go away' (one way or another) if only people believe hard enough in a specific thing.
Nope. Lady gave us hands and minds, and hearts, and an ability to *deal.* Real magic is *part* of the world, not separate from it. It can give us a capacity to understand better what we do, how powerful our intentions *are,* and, hopefully, what we can do to stop killing the world and each other in the name of some 'miracles' someone wrote about.
Yeah, I've seen some pretty astounding stuff... Being strong doesn't mean you have to pick up freight trains ...instead of learning to *drive* them. :)
Frank, your insistence that Paganism, (and magic, for that matter) *should be* your preschool idea of 'instant gratification' doesn't mean you (Or necessarily anyone who puts people on TV for purposes of amusing the public) ...have any idea what you're talking about.
Where was this on TV, btw?
Probably the modern clergy garb was worn to drive home the idea that these are *clergy.* I don't imagine I'd have done it that way. But hey.
And I hate to say it, cords around the waist were not invented by Franciscans. They didn't invent the *robe,* either, but you may find they make a nice combination. :)
More commonly, the beads are simply *cords,* but
that's not something Christianity owns, either. Maybe they stole that from the Buddhists. Don't see them in the Bible, for sure. :)
"so lets get moving on that clean air and no global warming."
I might, and do, say the same to you. But you make claims that *we* are making claims that really are in *your* mind. :)
"how about love? can you fix it so that everyone is kind and there is only love and then i will not have to worry about islam and can stop posting on the topic."
Give a girl a chance. :)
Actually, Frank, you could stop worrying and hating as you do right now. Wake up and see human beings.
But, really, it's the idea that 'This religion is love, whatever it does, make others go away and there will only be 'love,' even if I try to use hate to accomplish it, which has resulted in many self-perpetuating atrocities since the idea got political power...'
That's what causes much of the hate and fear in the world.
"you might want to use your powers if only to rid yourself of me - and get 4 billion converts."
What in the Lady's name would I do with 4 billion 'converts?' :) I've explained to you before that this is not a Pagan agenda.
"Anon-
You verify the Siege at Nahr al Bared with:
"141,000 hits on Google. Your point?"
"So as I thought FIRST DO NO HARM isn't your
primary goal rather it is LIVE AND LET LIVE."
Garyd was right"
My child, I wish you would make sense. How does the fighting between the Lebanese army and Fath al-Islam invalidate my adherence to the Rede? Am I responsible for this battle? If so, then you can hold me accountable for causing harm. Deliver your proof that I am at fault, and I will repent.
Or am I supposed to go to Lebanon, wave my magic wand, go "Bippedy, Bobbedy, Boo", and love and kisses will prevail? Sure wish it worked that way. Of course, if I had a magic wand Frank would be a toad now. Sigh.
"when 99% [ok only a guess as i have never heard of anyone but islamics doing it so it whould be 100% but im being fair] of the honor killings are by islamics in the name of islam, which allows honor killings, then its fair to say its an islamic problem."
So until you hear of it, nothing exists. Did you attempt to research NON-Muslim honor killings and have it turn up nothing, or have you only heard of "islamic" (so redneck!) honor killing because you only listen for those?
Where in the Qur'an, since you have a PhD. in Copy-n-Paste, does it expressly condone honor killings?
I know, you SAY, "honor killings are part of islam - as a matter of fact the koran tells islamics to kill for just about every trangression. ok, some times they only cut off body parts."
However, you are untrustworthy, Doctor, and an all around dilettante. The statement above is vague. Telling one to "kill for just about every trangression" is not the same as your assertion that the Qur'an condones honor killing.
Even in vagueness you contradict yourself; "ok, some times they only cut off body parts."
So the Qur'an really doesn't tell Muslims to kill for everything.
And what about all these good (meaning evil) Muslims you speak of being so evil? I havent heard a good amputation or eye gouging story lately. Shouldn't that be happening left and right?
Doctor Collins, you should start a stand-up act. HA! Your futility really makes me laugh!
The point here is... you can't make peace by using hatred and willful ignorance. Your mere ignoring of the fact that your inflammatory speech *does* lead to violence against people of other beliefs in Christianity doesn't make it any more productive to say, 'Hate, hate, hate, fear, fear, fear.'
Yes, there are scary things in the Koran, ...the same books actually do have things taken to be strong admonishments against religious intolerance, just the same, (none particularly seeming to include me as a non 'Person of the Book')
But there are many loud voices in Christianity that say, 'You can't be a good Christian without hating Paganplace,' too.
That say beating wives and children is OK, or at least utterly deniable while it goes on and on and victims are blamed and churches still talk about the 'virtue' of following a Bible with a lot of very similar language.
To encourage free and non-oppressive societies, you must help the peaceful elements, not tar all people unlike you with the same brush.
The hatred is the real enemy: it creates a lot of the violent and oppressive desires that people turn to old books to try and sanctify.
You're no one to talk, Frank, about religions that teach violence and hatred and abuse: You seem to have learned these things well from your version of your own.
If five different Muslim fathers each kills his own daughter to save the family's honor, why should it be attributed to them being Muslim and not to being fathers?
Wouldn't it be as accurate to say that fathers are vile and evil?
You do realize no one reads the big block of spam.
Apparently, you'd rather just assume the hijab-wearing woman a 'murderess' than even admit she was senselessly killed, probably by people saying 'Islamics are murderers.'
Wiccan posts: "Honor killings are cultural, not religious."
I was thinking this was the case, but not really certain. I have a friend from Iraq who swears that, years ago, his (much, much) older brother killed his wife for infidelity and was finacially compensated by her father. They are Catholics.
I questioned how true this really was, but my friend says it happened before he was born so he only knows it as a story.
My point being, I never thought it was a specifically Islamic phenomenon anyway.
This is the kind of attitude that incites hatred and contempt of other people and can lead to murder. Some people act on those feelings to go and kill innocent folks that happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Take for example the murder of the Afghani lady, Alia Ansari, the mother of six children, in San Francisco recently. She was killed by a single bullet to the head in broad daylight as she walked with her 3-year-old daughter to pick up her children from school. She was distinguished by her hijab, the head scarf worn by some Muslim women. She had her life snuffed out for no good reason whatsoever. And the sad part is those six children are left without a mother. Now, I ask you, what kind of society that would allow this kind of hate crime to happen?
Do you know why we have to hate every single Muslim on this sweet earth or be considered enablers? I don't hate every Christian for those who have told me I'm going to burn in hell, and acted like they wanted to light the fire right then. Seems to be a sin to use our god/goddess-given brains and make judgements.
All or nothing! You're with us or against us! We've seen how successful a tactic THAT'S been.
"Please share with us the killings the Quran DOES call for. Also -are Muslims killing other Muslims a problem in todays world?
Thanks for your wisdom in this matter."
Anon-
If you're going to call me out, at least have the guts to make up a name.
What a childish, snippy manner. Did you go to the web sites I posted? Did you read where I called "honor killings" barbaric and revolting?
Let me ask you-
Are Christians killing Christians a problem in the world today? How about Jews killing Jews? Hindus killing Hindus? How far down this stupid trail do you want to go?
I am no scholar of ANY religious text, but I do have the capacity to check out what I'm told. I don't trust, I verify. You could use the same wisdom.
I think the source to world peace is the transport of two hundred thousand soldiers armed to the teeth half way across the world to go and occupy a poeple who have done nothing to deserve the killing and the destruction that Iraq is seeing today. Maybe that huge log in your eye that kepps pointing out other folks' short comings is preventing you from seeing the truth about the atrocities that are committed on a daily basis by the so called 'loving Christians' in Iraq and elsewehre around the world.
Exactly the response I expected Wiccan. I'd hoped for something else but not really expected it. So as I thought first do no harm isn't your primary goal rather it is live and let live. Not as good as the first but not horrible either.
You and I are willing to tolerate those of different beliefs Osama and his crowd are not. That is the difference and no Osama doesn't reprensent all of Islam but 1% would be far too large a proportion.
You cannot have peace with those for whom peace can only exist if you cease to encumber the earth and begin to fertilize it. Not at any rate unless you are will to commit suicide which given how the Taliban treated women is probably preferable to living as a female among the Taliban.
What I do know is how many times I've been threatened with and subjected to violence by people citing Christian dogma, propaganda, and scripture, as do many in my faith community.
No illusions about Islamic-based religious violence, but saying, 'I can say Islam is worse, thus making what Christians do nonexistent or OK, somehow,' ...that's a double standard, and a real denial of the fact that Christianity has never been immune to the perpetration of religious torture, violence and rape, which does in fact go on in our society, though not to the extent it once did before we became governed by *secular* laws and established a *separation* between church and state power.
Well, Sheen, certainly that shouldn't fly in America, but plenty of Fundamentalists advocate beating children and are some reason against hate crimes laws when it comes to people they preach hate about....
Certainly, the Fundamentalist homophobic agenda, the obsessive attempts to sexually control others not to mention the new 'witch hunt' mentality as regards Pagans and the like would seem at least as irrational as Sharia law, and that's why we need our *secular* laws. Cause they protect people from that, ...ironically because some among the Christians came to see a way of interpreting their holy books *not* to be hateful toward the demonized people of whatever period in our history.
People like Frank seem to always want to dismantle those civil rights protections, the caring for the poor and the sick, justice for those attacked by Christians who were taught to hate them... all in the name of some 'holy cold war.'
Certainly doesn't listen when people patiently explain why his defamations are based on falsehoods. He just wants some form of war.
What I have read is that this is a becoming a problem in communities of Islamic fundamentalists who practice Sharia law. While this type of thing happens in countries that are under Sharia law and we never hear about it, families are now moving into other countries and bringing their religion with them, and these practices are illegal in their new countries.
"There are no trends of daily killing, murder, rape and violent attacks linked to Christian dogma and doctrine in America or any other country. Now. PLEASE SAY THE SAME OF ISLAM.."
I dunno about that, Anonymous, what's the statistics on spouse abuse, much of it justified by a Christian worldview if not dogma?
America is plagued by violence, and plenty of right-wing Christians trying to incite armed people to acts of hatred. As conservative Christianity has become more prominent in America, in fact, the murder rate has gone *up.*
Certainly, Frank's intolerance and defamation of peaceful people such as Pagans can bring no *good.*
Just cause he denies it happens doesn't make all Muslims 'evil,' either. And screaming they must be the 'enemy' doesn't encourage tolerance and coexistence: it just *makes* enemies of people and diverts attention from more urgent and solvable problems.
If you want to see more pluralism and tolerance out of Islam, then you should show some *yourself* and show that it's good.
In effect, the people like Frank *don't* want the violence to stop, as it is taken to *vindicate* their own desire to 'conquer the world.'
"Honor" killings are cultural, not religious. The Qur'an DOES NOT call for these killings. A barbaric, revolting practice, it should be condemned by every human, just as lynching should have been. Including all imams, muftis, ayatollahs, etc...
Well Anonymous, I certainly don't agree with honor killings.
As to what does or does not go on in Muslim communities, I cannot say. Maybe Muslim leaders already take a vocal stand against this, and these individuals still do this anyway.
I am not a Muslim, and have never lived in a Muslim country.
I know that in a country that is not a Democracy, where religion and politics are intertwined, the "religious leaders" would have a much different agenda in interpreting scripture for the citizens of that country. That would mean a purely spritual leader of a smaller community within such a country may not have the freedom to be so vocal.
What I would like to know, in discussing this, is what is the number of crimes committed in the name of Islam per capita. That would really be a better gauge of wheteher or not the Muslim community has a bigger problem with crime than any other.
All Comments (160)
Hi, my sites:be54890fb9f06c6e30233561f6624142
December 22, 2007 10:59 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 22, 2007 10:59
Below are comemnts by a reader of my article on Islamic mumbo-jumbo. This readers explain about all organized religions:
"I expose the falsehoods of all man made religions. These religions are just for business purpose. Arab religion is a derivative of Hindu religion. In Hindu religion the religious class is asking the masses to worship the stones. Shiv linga and parvati stones are the famous stones. Shiv linga is a male sexual organ and parvati is a female sexual organ. The Arabs have taken the parvati stone to mecca and calling it a holy stone came directly from paradise .How stupid and ignorant are the followers of this religion. The Hindus are spinning around the stone in India seven times clockwise and the stupid followers of Arab religions have just made one change....They made it to anticlockwise....What a great change .This parvati stone is a outstretched vagina, through which head of a baby is delivering out. The followers of Arab religions including the converts are saluting and surrendering their heads to this stone three or five times a day. They are kissing this stone (Parvati vagina and head of baby)during their very holy holy pilgrimage. If you will disclose to them this reality of worshiping the stone, they will desperately reply.. "no we are not worshiping stone, we are worshiping our god through this stone". What an intelligent answer . Stupid followers of a sadist god. He create them and asking them to raise their asses many times a day.
These poor followers are scarred of these gods. He has threatened them if they will not worship him, he will screw them in hereafter life. At other place this god has used another weapon "sex in the paradise",72 virgins for men. But no body ask this god,what about females, what they will get? I think Arab god is gay god, jealous of females .
Yousef Tabish "
Posted by SKM
September 8, 2007 8:31 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on September 8, 2007 20:31
Hi paganplace!
You said
"*wandering back online...* *yawn.*
Hey, I made him disappear! :)
Must be a new topic up, with the quiet. Further adventures in Frank attempting to people he doesn't understand (or tell when he sees one, apparently, )doubtless to recur."
I thought he said spells DON'T work. :)
The further adventures of Frank. Hmm. Sounds to me like a comic strip of some kind. What do you think? :)
June 14, 2007 3:16 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 14, 2007 15:16
*wandering back online...* *yawn.*
Hey, I made him disappear! :)
Must be a new topic up, with the quiet. Further adventures in Frank attempting to people he doesn't understand (or tell when he sees one, apparently, )doubtless to recur.
June 14, 2007 12:11 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 14, 2007 00:11
Hi, Mujahid! Thanks for the offer; I'm always up for a good "cuppa".
Frank, what "harm" did I do that shocked you so? Threatening to turn you into a toad? The only harm I see there is the insult to the genus Bufonidae.
June 13, 2007 9:37 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 13, 2007 09:37
Anyway, Frank....
I doubt I had you in stitches, because it's very hard to imagine there being any laughter in those words... words that turn even laughter into some kind of shame-based *attack.*
You *better* laugh.
We say our Lady says, among other things, 'Let there be mirth *and* reverence within you.'
Personal fave of mine.
If my words here have brought some mirth, well, blessed be... But I don't think that's what that is.
The 'laughter' I hear from you is, a) not happening, and, b) that of a small man attempting to dismiss from his sight someone telling him he is not a follower of a book in a 'war' that he somehow hasn't gone to sign up for...
But a man in pain who was promised by someone that they would make it easy if he obeyed someone...
Laughing like an attack at the idea that his heart and mind are his own.
Would you like a sillier costume? I'm not sure you're really laughing yet.
June 13, 2007 1:34 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 13, 2007 01:34
Go ahead, Frank, Speak it. Let it out.
You want to call me a 'fake,' Ok....
A fake *what?*
June 13, 2007 12:45 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 13, 2007 00:45
*waving to Mujahid.* Tea's great. :) Hope you don't mind the beer: if my ancestors hadn't had beer, we'd all have died of nasty microbes ...as would anybody too 'pure' to know what happens when you put water in a jar in Europe if you want to have a town. ;)
Anyway, try to pardon my (our?) countrymen, they seem to have no warrior-Gods, and are thus shocked and full of denial about what happens when you have a war. :)
Actually, I think much of the nonsense is about people wanting to identify with the 'brave protectors' and thus being too-easily-led by the humanity-bankrupt.
June 13, 2007 12:40 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 13, 2007 00:40
Wiccan and PaganPlace,
You are wonderful people; I Like your outlook on life and your world view; and I don't mind sharing a round of tea with you all(beer is out of the quetion though.) Peace...
June 13, 2007 12:18 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 13, 2007 00:18
Ah, we're getting to it now, I think, Frank.
You would like some 'powers,' would you?
We *all* have power. Books neither grant it nor take it away, nor define it.
I can see a certain bitterness in conquered peoples... if you're as Irish too as your name claims. This is the head-game. Offering enemies and shame for assimilation purposes.
Someone offered you Islam as an enemy, and Christianity as the 'unquestionable good guys.'
And anything that doesn't fit that feeds into the shame and aggression... thus why you can't seem to process what people tell you about themselves...
You set up an impossible definition of 'magic' in order to discredit the idea that anyone has any power at all except for to be defined by what comes in books.
You may not admit to being Christian (tonight) but you quote the Bible often enough as though 'laying down the law.' Can't seem to tell people from words you can attribute to 'them' even if you can't accept that people are *not* a monolithic 'The Islamic' just for disagreeing with the form of Christianity you won't admit to being in lockstep with.
If you aren't Christian, why are you so insistent on totally ignoring Christianity's history of doing the exact same kinds of 'evil' that you believe is structurally only-inherent to Islam?
What would you like? Some miracle cure for global warming which you'd only take to 'prove' humanity isn't screwing up on a mass scale?
If you do come from Native Americans, you should know it's not seemly to boast about such things.
Or smart to demand them, I think I recall hearing. :)
You say I 'defend Islam.' No, actually, I don't. I defend *humanity.* Even yours.
Because this hatred and blindness of yours is *poison.* It's certainly poisoned *my* ancestors for far too long. This is where we start to make it right.
Pain cannot be made to magically-go away... for long. And I think what I'm speaking to right now, Frank, is your pain.
Some of this *can* go away, with a touch.
If you let the world touch you.
This is one reason I don't approve of either 'side' in this 'battle for the world's soul...'
Who said the 'winner' could *have* it?
You demand a 'show of force.' For the same reason as you think this would be to 'get' 'four billion converts,' ...I would say, 'No.'
What you *may* have is a touch. You're a member of the human race, and so am I, and even this columnist above, which you may not have noticed I actually disagreed with on certain major points, if you hadn't already decided I must be the 'enemy...' These are humans, too.
So can you be.
You want to see 'power,' you must first think, 'power to what?'
As you deny the humanity of others, use words merely to defame, rather than to understand, so you reduce yourself from a living human being, into a ball of pained reactions... With a mouth.
If you want to 'not fear 'islamics' ' then, *touch.* Go meet some Muslims.
They're people. As I've said repeatedly, if the nightmare 'Red Dawn' kind of scenario were to happen, I'd be right there with you.
But it's not.
If it did, then it wouldn't be time to obsess over it now, anyway.
You fear oppression, coercion, torture, death.
I've been exposed to all these things, personally. I *don't* hate my Christian neighbors because of it. I just don't accept it when Christians claim that Christianity is unquestionably-good, because I know much better.
Cause I've tended the wreckage.
"When I was showing me
My screaming sock,
That's real
I screamed.
I was scared.
When my killer came
I was the Sun."
Fights happen, Frank. Sometimes you lose.
No reason to obsess about the universe being 'imperfect.'
Especially if you do nothing but make the world a scary sock-puppet to scare yourself with.
You want your magic, ...get your head out of the 'bad medicine.'
Breathe. Look. Think.
Stop seeing the world as defined by rival written authorities.
Turn. Off. That. Computer.
Meet people.
Don't come back till you have a new name.
June 13, 2007 12:05 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 13, 2007 00:05
Jihadist,
Hmmm, still no answer to the "bottom line" question i.e. do you promote/support global freedom of religion??? Yes or No??????
June 12, 2007 11:37 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 23:37
Once again, Frank, you aren't even reading. You have shown zero comprehension or retention or recognition of the communication you've been offered.
You refuse to accept that just because you decided we must think we can or should control the world's minds or undo the damage you seem to insist humans continue to do... doesn't mean that's actually what's being claimed. Certainly not by me, or Wiccan, or anyone else here. As for people trying to sell *us* books, well, they can say what they would like, I suppose.
This doesn't mean they speak for us or the community, or that Ceremonial Magick is the same thing as Wicca and Satanism just cause you find life is simpler, that way.
What *is* simpler is that I'm not 'Defending Islam' when I say that being a hater won't help. I don't approve of Islam any more than I approve of Christianity in the terms you choose to define things. I don't share your paranoia that 'Islamics' are going to take over America or something, because you know darn well that wouldn't be permitted.
I've said from the beginning, I see no difference between that and the Christianity you keep referring to.
You say you're not Christian, now? Could have fooled me with all the insistence Christianity's the only right way.
Tell, us, then, what *are* you?
And, as for the witchvox site, of course I'm not embarrassed. It's a site that shows things that may be of interest to Pagans, not the Pope or something. Your link just led me to the homepage, is all, and whatever you quoted was not apparent there.
June 12, 2007 11:23 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 23:23
Frank:
"when wiccans say they can effect the earth and the people on it - subject to the command to do no harm then i consider putting them to the test. fix the air, clean the oceans, eliminate global warming, make everyone love everyone else. and if you dont do it, i say you are a fraud."
I say you set up a false standard in order to *call* people frauds.
I'd be more inclined to talk about when the likes of Falwell and Robertson 'pray' for disasters to happen to, say, Disneyworld and getting their own compounds hit instead...
Or 'praying' for disaster to befall New Orleans to get at gays and... where the gay pride parade was being the only place *not* to get slammed.
I've said it repeatedly, magic, as the ancestors you claim knew, is *part* of the Earth, not in opposition to it. You can't expect that to cause global warming to *not happen* while doing the opposite materially. That just doesn't make sense.
You can't *magic people into loving each other.*
That's probably why the idea of coercive, controlling magic is so laughable to Wiccans... unlike Christians who apparently pray for others to be mind-controlled every day.
You seem to say we must have free will, when it's time to blame someone for something your book doesn't like, but apparently pray for it to be taken away, from yourselves and others, ...all the time.
When it comes to magic, you just don't get it.
I'd say, ...if you have such faith in your Jesus coming back to end the world and punish nonbelievers, ...why does he seem to need so much *help from warmongers, profiteers, and abusers?*
Is that way you want?
June 12, 2007 10:34 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 22:34
Speaking of "dark tales":
-Jihadist Propaganda-
A terror suspect hoarded Jihadist propaganda on his home computer in Bolton, including an article by Osama bin Laden's deputy, a court has heard.
An anti-Western diatribe by al Qaida's Dr Ayman al-Zawahiri calling for the murder of those who disagree with extreme Islamic views was found in the possession of Omar Altimimi, 37, Manchester Crown Court heard.
Altimimi, who faces six charges of possession of the material for a purpose connected with terrorism, also held an article by radical Palestinian writer Sheikh Abu Mohammed al-Maqdese, the jury heard.
Several books by al-Maqdese, who preaches that democracy is always wrong, were found in the Hamburg flat of 9/11 ringleader Mohammed Atta.
Professor Michael Clarke, an expert in terrorism and defence studies at Kings College, London, told the jury a terrorist "organisational chart" also found on Altimimi's computer was adapted to apply to the UK.
The "chilling" terror manual advocated assassinating Government officials and bombing nightclubs, mixed schools and churches.
The "extensive checklist" of how to set up a terror network had echoes of the infamous Encyclopaedia of Jihad - al-Qaeda's guide to perpetrating Holy War - Professor Clarke said.
"It is the organisational doctrine of a viable terrorist organisation," he added.
Altimimi claims no knowledge of the material and has pleaded not guilty to all charges relating to the alleged offences, said to have taken place between February and June last year. The trial, scheduled to last another two weeks, continues.
June 12, 2007 10:32 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 22:32
Ok. Frank... Just because *you* can't tell the difference between Wicca and ceremonial magick Crowley, does not mean these things are the same.
I haven't seen Wiccan 'doing any harm,' here, Frank. I see you trying to say:
"ocult books and satan worship and wicca and witches and warlocks and yes the lady and the wicca reed."
Are somehow all the same thing, just cause someone *told* you they were. You don't know what you're looking at, even when being told better. I've spent a great deal of my time explaining this to you, but even after being corrected, you persist in the defamation.
Why should I believe you about anything else?
Did it ever occur to you that the world's just not that simple?
Your link doesn't go to what you quoted, but did it ever occur to you that people who end up dealing with all kinds of ignorant accusations might want to know about some of the content?
And, apparently the History channels here aren't showing what you're talking about today, but again, did it ever occur to you that the common thread in these shows is *amusing you with dark tales that really say nothing?*
June 12, 2007 10:13 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 22:13
Draco:
Its for lurkers like you that I post.
Yeah -deedeedee-. Carlos Mencia knows enough to steal from the best.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQWUwDbmOm0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCixAktGPlg&mode=related&search=
June 12, 2007 9:31 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 21:31
Frank Collins:)
But surely, as you already stated you know everything there is to know about Islam and Muslims, you need not ask me questions.
And surely, as you stated.. "you like to be a jihadist, then you are a terrorist and why should anyone accept anything you have to say?", you don't have to read my posts. That is a serious allegation Mr. Collins, calling someone a terrorist who is not ...libel and slander.
I'm into Greater Jihad, but then, as you already know Islam and Muslims so well, I don't have to explain to you the concept of Greater and Lesser Jihad, mujahid and mujahidin.
Best regards
June 12, 2007 8:49 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 20:49
Frank-
If you will give up your belief that Wiccans are like Flora, Fauna, and Merryweather in Sleeping Beauty you'll be much happier. And you should thank the Lady that I don't have those powers; I'd make you grow up, and that's always a painful process. Blessings, Frank.
June 12, 2007 8:39 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 20:39
Frank is like Herod in "Jesus Christ Superstar".
http://www.lyricsdepot.com/jesus-christ-superstar/king-herods-song-try-it-and-see.html
June 12, 2007 8:08 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 20:08
Anonymous
Witchcraft? Most Muslim nations imposed death penalty for it?
Pagans/Wiccans are not warlocks and wizards and witches of the Harry Potter series.
Pagans and Wiccans are closer in beliefs to the animists/polytheists of Indonesia and Malaysia. None were given the death penalty for their beliefs. Never mind the Bataks of Indonesia used to be cannibals, and the Dyaks of Borneo (Indonesia and Malaysia) used to be headhunters.
Indonesian and Malaysian Muslims do go to traditional medicine men and women known as "bomohs" and "dukuns" - ones you would say to engage in witchcraft. They have a deep knowledge of herbs and plants for curative purposes and effectively used them for many ailments. Biotechnologists studied and are studying their potions for applications in modern medicines.
Best regards
June 12, 2007 7:53 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 19:53
long-time lurker, rare poster, but anon, are you a deedeedee or just an A$$ h0l3? You do nothing but b!t(h and you never offer a solution but you disrespect all those who do. As for your battle with wiccan, you're losing and we all can see that.
June 12, 2007 7:47 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 19:47
"Anonymous:
Wiccan:
Most Muslim nations still have and enforce the death penalty for witchcraft. You may start working for PEACE in those nations. This should be a start for you. And double? try sevenfold"
Anon-chan,
You have not told me the best way to work for peace. You obviously find my way inadequate. Teach, so that I may learn.
June 12, 2007 7:32 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 19:32
Wiccan:
Most Muslim nations still have and enforce the death penalty for witchcraft. You may start working for PEACE in those nations. This should be a start for you. And double? try sevenfold..
"The section referring to violations of the right to life of persons or groups of persons notes the following, inter alia: women accused of witchcraft and buried alive by government soldiers; failure to present to the jury mitigating evidence - a history of severe physical, sexual and emotional abuse - in a death penalty case involving a woman; traditional practices, in particular so-called "honour killings", targeting women; deliberate attacks against refugees and internally displaced persons, particularly in the context of situations of internal conflict and unrest; violence, attacks and extrajudicial killings of members of indigenous communities; threats and killings of journalists because of their work to uncover corruption, organised crime and human rights violations; threats against lawyers handling human rights cases; death threats or the extrajudicial killing of persons because of their sexual orientation. On the last point, its stated that it is unacceptable that in some states homosexual relationships are still punishable by death and that the continuing prejudice against members of sexual minorities and especially the criminalisation of matters of sexual orientation increase the social stigmatisation of these persons, making them more vulnerable to violence and human rights abuses, including death threats and violations of the right to life, which are often committed in a climate of impunity. Its also noted that the often tendentious media coverage of this subject further contributes to creating an atmosphere of impunity and indifference about crimes committed against members of sexual minorities."
Cheers.
June 12, 2007 7:25 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 19:25
Hello, hello, hello Gaby:)
Thank you for asking.
Yes, I am now back home and will only be at the office tommorrow. Have quite recovered from the Frisco bug. That city is as lovely as ever.
Hello Frank Collins
I am rather confused now, as to whether you are a Christian, or not. But surely, if you are an American Indian ( a "feather Indian as you call yourself"), you would have some feel and understanding for the pagans/wiccans whose beliefs are really closer to the traditional beliefs of American Indians.
And surely as an American Indian, a minority, you would also have some feel and empathy for all minorities in the US, regardless of their ethnicity and religious affiliations
Best regards
June 12, 2007 7:20 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 19:20
"Minds to think,
Hands to work,
Hearts to love.
These three gifts you are given
to help each other with your livin'."
Aunt Anne wasn't much of a poet, but I love the sentiment.
Anon-
"wiccan says:
"I am not a god, nor have I ever claimed to be. I do work for peace."
really? not very hard.."
Mon petit, if you'll instruct me in a better way to work for peace, I will double my eforts. Promise.
June 12, 2007 6:56 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 18:56
Anyway, must step out. Consider, Frank, that your 'expectations' of what 'magic' 'should' do are mirrored in your own superstitious idea that ongoing problems we're contributing to will 'go away' (one way or another) if only people believe hard enough in a specific thing.
Nope. Lady gave us hands and minds, and hearts, and an ability to *deal.* Real magic is *part* of the world, not separate from it. It can give us a capacity to understand better what we do, how powerful our intentions *are,* and, hopefully, what we can do to stop killing the world and each other in the name of some 'miracles' someone wrote about.
Yeah, I've seen some pretty astounding stuff... Being strong doesn't mean you have to pick up freight trains ...instead of learning to *drive* them. :)
If we pick it up and use it.
June 12, 2007 6:35 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 18:35
Frank, your insistence that Paganism, (and magic, for that matter) *should be* your preschool idea of 'instant gratification' doesn't mean you (Or necessarily anyone who puts people on TV for purposes of amusing the public) ...have any idea what you're talking about.
Where was this on TV, btw?
Probably the modern clergy garb was worn to drive home the idea that these are *clergy.* I don't imagine I'd have done it that way. But hey.
And I hate to say it, cords around the waist were not invented by Franciscans. They didn't invent the *robe,* either, but you may find they make a nice combination. :)
More commonly, the beads are simply *cords,* but
that's not something Christianity owns, either. Maybe they stole that from the Buddhists. Don't see them in the Bible, for sure. :)
"so lets get moving on that clean air and no global warming."
I might, and do, say the same to you. But you make claims that *we* are making claims that really are in *your* mind. :)
"how about love? can you fix it so that everyone is kind and there is only love and then i will not have to worry about islam and can stop posting on the topic."
Give a girl a chance. :)
Actually, Frank, you could stop worrying and hating as you do right now. Wake up and see human beings.
But, really, it's the idea that 'This religion is love, whatever it does, make others go away and there will only be 'love,' even if I try to use hate to accomplish it, which has resulted in many self-perpetuating atrocities since the idea got political power...'
That's what causes much of the hate and fear in the world.
"you might want to use your powers if only to rid yourself of me - and get 4 billion converts."
What in the Lady's name would I do with 4 billion 'converts?' :) I've explained to you before that this is not a Pagan agenda.
June 12, 2007 6:22 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 18:22
Anonymous is just Dr. Frank Collins PhD. typing double posts so he can have a "friend" around here.
"becasue not every father does it and the ones that do are 99+% islamic."
That gives it away.
So where can we find that 99% figure Doctor?
June 12, 2007 6:07 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 18:07
wiccan says:
"I am not a god, nor have I ever claimed to be. I do work for peace."
really? not very hard..
June 12, 2007 6:02 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 18:02
Wiccan posted: "How does the fighting between the Lebanese army and Fath al-Islam invalidate my adherence to the Rede? "
I wondered the same thing!
June 12, 2007 5:55 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 17:55
"Anon-
You verify the Siege at Nahr al Bared with:
"141,000 hits on Google. Your point?"
"So as I thought FIRST DO NO HARM isn't your
primary goal rather it is LIVE AND LET LIVE."
Garyd was right"
My child, I wish you would make sense. How does the fighting between the Lebanese army and Fath al-Islam invalidate my adherence to the Rede? Am I responsible for this battle? If so, then you can hold me accountable for causing harm. Deliver your proof that I am at fault, and I will repent.
Or am I supposed to go to Lebanon, wave my magic wand, go "Bippedy, Bobbedy, Boo", and love and kisses will prevail? Sure wish it worked that way. Of course, if I had a magic wand Frank would be a toad now. Sigh.
June 12, 2007 5:52 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 17:52
Dr. Frank Collins, PhD. posted:
"when 99% [ok only a guess as i have never heard of anyone but islamics doing it so it whould be 100% but im being fair] of the honor killings are by islamics in the name of islam, which allows honor killings, then its fair to say its an islamic problem."
So until you hear of it, nothing exists. Did you attempt to research NON-Muslim honor killings and have it turn up nothing, or have you only heard of "islamic" (so redneck!) honor killing because you only listen for those?
Where in the Qur'an, since you have a PhD. in Copy-n-Paste, does it expressly condone honor killings?
I know, you SAY, "honor killings are part of islam - as a matter of fact the koran tells islamics to kill for just about every trangression. ok, some times they only cut off body parts."
However, you are untrustworthy, Doctor, and an all around dilettante. The statement above is vague. Telling one to "kill for just about every trangression" is not the same as your assertion that the Qur'an condones honor killing.
Even in vagueness you contradict yourself; "ok, some times they only cut off body parts."
So the Qur'an really doesn't tell Muslims to kill for everything.
And what about all these good (meaning evil) Muslims you speak of being so evil? I havent heard a good amputation or eye gouging story lately. Shouldn't that be happening left and right?
Doctor Collins, you should start a stand-up act. HA! Your futility really makes me laugh!
June 12, 2007 5:50 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 17:50
Wiccan:
You verify the Siege at Nahr al Bared with:
"141,000 hits on Google. Your point?"
"So as I thought FIRST DO NO HARM isn't your
primary goal rather it is LIVE AND LET LIVE."
Garyd was right.
June 12, 2007 5:36 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 17:36
The point here is... you can't make peace by using hatred and willful ignorance. Your mere ignoring of the fact that your inflammatory speech *does* lead to violence against people of other beliefs in Christianity doesn't make it any more productive to say, 'Hate, hate, hate, fear, fear, fear.'
Yes, there are scary things in the Koran, ...the same books actually do have things taken to be strong admonishments against religious intolerance, just the same, (none particularly seeming to include me as a non 'Person of the Book')
But there are many loud voices in Christianity that say, 'You can't be a good Christian without hating Paganplace,' too.
That say beating wives and children is OK, or at least utterly deniable while it goes on and on and victims are blamed and churches still talk about the 'virtue' of following a Bible with a lot of very similar language.
To encourage free and non-oppressive societies, you must help the peaceful elements, not tar all people unlike you with the same brush.
The hatred is the real enemy: it creates a lot of the violent and oppressive desires that people turn to old books to try and sanctify.
You're no one to talk, Frank, about religions that teach violence and hatred and abuse: You seem to have learned these things well from your version of your own.
June 12, 2007 5:36 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 17:36
If five different Muslim fathers each kills his own daughter to save the family's honor, why should it be attributed to them being Muslim and not to being fathers?
Wouldn't it be as accurate to say that fathers are vile and evil?
...using that line of thinking, I mean.
June 12, 2007 5:21 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 17:21
Little one-
141,000 hits on Google. Your point?
June 12, 2007 5:21 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 17:21
You do realize no one reads the big block of spam.
Apparently, you'd rather just assume the hijab-wearing woman a 'murderess' than even admit she was senselessly killed, probably by people saying 'Islamics are murderers.'
June 12, 2007 5:19 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 17:19
Wiccan-
"I do have the capacity to check out what I'm told. I don't trust, I verify."
Siege at Nahr al Bared?
June 12, 2007 5:15 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 17:15
Wiccan posts: "Honor killings are cultural, not religious."
I was thinking this was the case, but not really certain. I have a friend from Iraq who swears that, years ago, his (much, much) older brother killed his wife for infidelity and was finacially compensated by her father. They are Catholics.
I questioned how true this really was, but my friend says it happened before he was born so he only knows it as a story.
My point being, I never thought it was a specifically Islamic phenomenon anyway.
June 12, 2007 4:54 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 16:54
This is the kind of attitude that incites hatred and contempt of other people and can lead to murder. Some people act on those feelings to go and kill innocent folks that happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Take for example the murder of the Afghani lady, Alia Ansari, the mother of six children, in San Francisco recently. She was killed by a single bullet to the head in broad daylight as she walked with her 3-year-old daughter to pick up her children from school. She was distinguished by her hijab, the head scarf worn by some Muslim women. She had her life snuffed out for no good reason whatsoever. And the sad part is those six children are left without a mother. Now, I ask you, what kind of society that would allow this kind of hate crime to happen?
June 12, 2007 4:34 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 16:34
PaganPlace-
Do you know why we have to hate every single Muslim on this sweet earth or be considered enablers? I don't hate every Christian for those who have told me I'm going to burn in hell, and acted like they wanted to light the fire right then. Seems to be a sin to use our god/goddess-given brains and make judgements.
All or nothing! You're with us or against us! We've seen how successful a tactic THAT'S been.
Feh.
June 12, 2007 4:24 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 16:24
I think he meant 'Anonymous's' little wone liners, there. Definitely childish and snippy.
June 12, 2007 4:14 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 16:14
Garyd-
Which response did you mean?
June 12, 2007 4:11 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 16:11
"Please share with us the killings the Quran DOES call for. Also -are Muslims killing other Muslims a problem in todays world?
Thanks for your wisdom in this matter."
Anon-
If you're going to call me out, at least have the guts to make up a name.
What a childish, snippy manner. Did you go to the web sites I posted? Did you read where I called "honor killings" barbaric and revolting?
Let me ask you-
Are Christians killing Christians a problem in the world today? How about Jews killing Jews? Hindus killing Hindus? How far down this stupid trail do you want to go?
I am no scholar of ANY religious text, but I do have the capacity to check out what I'm told. I don't trust, I verify. You could use the same wisdom.
Twit.
June 12, 2007 4:08 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 16:08
I think the source to world peace is the transport of two hundred thousand soldiers armed to the teeth half way across the world to go and occupy a poeple who have done nothing to deserve the killing and the destruction that Iraq is seeing today. Maybe that huge log in your eye that kepps pointing out other folks' short comings is preventing you from seeing the truth about the atrocities that are committed on a daily basis by the so called 'loving Christians' in Iraq and elsewehre around the world.
June 12, 2007 4:06 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 16:06
Exactly the response I expected Wiccan. I'd hoped for something else but not really expected it. So as I thought first do no harm isn't your primary goal rather it is live and let live. Not as good as the first but not horrible either.
You and I are willing to tolerate those of different beliefs Osama and his crowd are not. That is the difference and no Osama doesn't reprensent all of Islam but 1% would be far too large a proportion.
You cannot have peace with those for whom peace can only exist if you cease to encumber the earth and begin to fertilize it. Not at any rate unless you are will to commit suicide which given how the Taliban treated women is probably preferable to living as a female among the Taliban.
June 12, 2007 4:04 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 16:04
Paganplace:
"the perpetration of religious torture, violence and rape"
"though not to the extent it once did"
"before we became governed by *secular* laws and established a *separation* between church and state power."
Please share as I'm unaware of your history.
When did all this happen?
June 12, 2007 4:02 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 16:02
What I do know is how many times I've been threatened with and subjected to violence by people citing Christian dogma, propaganda, and scripture, as do many in my faith community.
No illusions about Islamic-based religious violence, but saying, 'I can say Islam is worse, thus making what Christians do nonexistent or OK, somehow,' ...that's a double standard, and a real denial of the fact that Christianity has never been immune to the perpetration of religious torture, violence and rape, which does in fact go on in our society, though not to the extent it once did before we became governed by *secular* laws and established a *separation* between church and state power.
June 12, 2007 3:49 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 15:49
"The Qur'an DOES NOT call for these killings."
Wiccan:
Please share with us the killings the Quran DOES call for. Also -are Muslims killing other Muslims a problem in todays world?
Thanks for your wisdom in this matter.
June 12, 2007 3:48 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 15:48
"I dunno about that"
Thank you pagan. Enough said.
June 12, 2007 3:34 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 15:34
Well, Sheen, certainly that shouldn't fly in America, but plenty of Fundamentalists advocate beating children and are some reason against hate crimes laws when it comes to people they preach hate about....
Certainly, the Fundamentalist homophobic agenda, the obsessive attempts to sexually control others not to mention the new 'witch hunt' mentality as regards Pagans and the like would seem at least as irrational as Sharia law, and that's why we need our *secular* laws. Cause they protect people from that, ...ironically because some among the Christians came to see a way of interpreting their holy books *not* to be hateful toward the demonized people of whatever period in our history.
People like Frank seem to always want to dismantle those civil rights protections, the caring for the poor and the sick, justice for those attacked by Christians who were taught to hate them... all in the name of some 'holy cold war.'
Certainly doesn't listen when people patiently explain why his defamations are based on falsehoods. He just wants some form of war.
June 12, 2007 3:33 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 15:33
What I have read is that this is a becoming a problem in communities of Islamic fundamentalists who practice Sharia law. While this type of thing happens in countries that are under Sharia law and we never hear about it, families are now moving into other countries and bringing their religion with them, and these practices are illegal in their new countries.
June 12, 2007 3:15 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 15:15
"There are no trends of daily killing, murder, rape and violent attacks linked to Christian dogma and doctrine in America or any other country. Now. PLEASE SAY THE SAME OF ISLAM.."
I dunno about that, Anonymous, what's the statistics on spouse abuse, much of it justified by a Christian worldview if not dogma?
America is plagued by violence, and plenty of right-wing Christians trying to incite armed people to acts of hatred. As conservative Christianity has become more prominent in America, in fact, the murder rate has gone *up.*
Certainly, Frank's intolerance and defamation of peaceful people such as Pagans can bring no *good.*
Just cause he denies it happens doesn't make all Muslims 'evil,' either. And screaming they must be the 'enemy' doesn't encourage tolerance and coexistence: it just *makes* enemies of people and diverts attention from more urgent and solvable problems.
If you want to see more pluralism and tolerance out of Islam, then you should show some *yourself* and show that it's good.
In effect, the people like Frank *don't* want the violence to stop, as it is taken to *vindicate* their own desire to 'conquer the world.'
June 12, 2007 3:13 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 15:13
http://www.brandeis.edu/projects/fse/Pages/honorkillings.html
http://www.worldandi.com/newhome/public/2003/may/clpub.asp
"Honor" killings are cultural, not religious. The Qur'an DOES NOT call for these killings. A barbaric, revolting practice, it should be condemned by every human, just as lynching should have been. Including all imams, muftis, ayatollahs, etc...
June 12, 2007 3:13 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 15:13
Please tell us you got more than some stupid youtube videos to show for all your wide brush of ignorance.
June 12, 2007 3:01 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 15:01
Is this going anywhere? If you have something to say, spit it out for God's sake.
June 12, 2007 2:57 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 14:57
ditto what, hl?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAYdcAnHoew
June 12, 2007 2:51 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 12, 2007 14:51
Well Anonymous, I certainly don't agree with honor killings.
As to what does or does not go on in Muslim communities, I cannot say. Maybe Muslim leaders already take a vocal stand against this, and these individuals still do this anyway.
I am not a Muslim, and have never lived in a Muslim country.
I know that in a country that is not a Democracy, where religion and politics are intertwined, the "religious leaders" would have a much different agenda in interpreting scripture for the citizens of that country. That would mean a purely spritual leader of a smaller community within such a country may not have the freedom to be so vocal.
What I would like to know, in discussing this, is what is the number of crimes committed in the name of Islam per capita. That would really be a better gauge of wheteher or not the Muslim community has a bigger problem with crime than any other.
June 12, 2007 2:48 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on