All Comments (38)

It's a great achievement for Islamic leaders and scholars as well as Newsweek and the Washington post to present this imperative opportunity for inter cultural and global philosophical dialogue. What's important is that by exchanging our ideas and comments regarding inter religious relations and world events that affect our views of each other as fellow human beings. Since the advent of humanity, We strove to make sense of the world we live in and the lives we've experienced. Worldwide curiosities to learn the true nature of life and our universe is an exceptionally rare virtue upon life on Earth. In other words, we're the only known species on the planet who've pursued to unravel these great mysteries and developed written philosophies based upon our understanding of the world around us.
One such philosophy that lasted throughout the ages of humanity is commonly known as religion and spirituality. Ever since our early belief in the Sky God and the God Mother from ancient Pagan times, we vigorously pursued to unravel the truth about our most profound questions. As any educated person would know that religion and their core beliefs or faith have evolved over time. Paganism, Monotheism and Polytheism have been influenced by humanity as these great philosophies have influenced our perceptions and decisions in life over the ages. Over time humanity has embraced diverse religious faiths and spiritual convictions that continue to influence our behavior in our times and most likely beyond.
What's vital for humanity's progress and even survival is to know the true nature of faith itself. To understand the true origins of faith. But most of all, is to accept the truth for whatever it may be. Each one of us will learn the absolute truth once we die. But until that time comes for anyone of us to depart this world, we really don't know the answer to God's existence nor do we have the absolute truth in regards to the true nature of God. Besides if we did possess the truth, there would've been only one religion on Earth with no diversification of any way, shape of form. There would only be one holy scripture written throughout human history.
Considering one's religious faith to be absolute, while considering others to be false would be ethnocentric at best. While collectively searching to unravel the mysteries on nature, life and the universe through sincere reasoning and serious research would be enlightening at its worst. Most importantly, we must accept the fact is that none of us have conclusive evidence to confirm our core beliefs and there's always an immanent change that our most cherished beliefs could be wrong. Our greatest challenge would be to tolerate the truth no matter what it may ultimately be. With such an open mind, we would be able to overcome any future discovery that would contradict our faith regarding the true nature of life, spirituality and divinity.
Humanity does have the ability to achieve such a social achievement. However, it's solely up to humanity and not any other entity or groups of entities to decide our destinies. Each one of us has a choice to make; either hopelessly engaging into meaningless inter cultural conflicts or combine our scientific and cultural gifts to thrive into an enlightened global civilization that could ultimately expand beyond our solar system. The choice is yours, and the time to make it is now!

by 2005 jewish census figures, gaza has over 2.5 million people.
the last census taken by palestinian authorities in 1997 was 1.6 million.

i have no idea what your point ever was- but your information is very outdated and has no relevance to the conversation.

i guess some distraction was necessary on your part- since i dont know you, i gave you the benefit of the doubt that you were here for dialogue on topic. (as respectfully stated above)

since youve made no response to my comments- and the bulk of your response here is a repeat and completely unrelated to the point? you were making about gaza-
it doesnt really merit any further comment.

im with brother jackson-

i also am trying to navigate the balance between my private limitless knowledge, and trying to "prove" to co-religionists (or anyone for that matter) the validity of my faith.

questions keep it alive fresh and recombinant- flexible and new to any current situation.

this forum provides us with an opportunity to bounce our thoughts off to very different mindsets, hopefully building common grounds or at least mutual tolerance.

substituting anecdotal incidences for rational discussion just elicits emotional responses and ends up veering off topic and off course.

"Christians can only continue living safely in the Gaza Strip if they accept Islamic law, including a ban on alcohol and on women roaming publicly without proper head coverings, an Islamist militant leader in Gaza told WND in an exclusive interview.

The militant leader said Christians in Gaza who engage in "missionary activity" will be "dealt with harshly."

The threats come two days after a church and Christian school in Gaza was attacked following the seizure of power in the territory by the Hamas terror group.

"I expect our Christian neighbors to understand the new Hamas rule means real changes. They must be ready for Islamic rule if they want to live in peace in Gaza," said Sheik Abu Saqer, leader of Jihadia Salafiya, an Islamic outreach movement that recently announced the opening of a "military wing" to enforce Muslim law in Gaza.

Jihadia Salafiya is suspected of attacking a United Nations school in Gaza last month, after the school allowed boys and girls to participate in the same sporting event. One person was killed in that attack.

"Jihadia Salafiya and other Islamic movements will ensure Christian schools and institutions show publicly what they are teaching to be sure they are not carrying out missionary activity. No more alcohol on the streets. All women, including non-Muslims, need to understand they must be covered at all times while in public," Abu Asqer told WND.

Abu Saqer accused the leadership of the Gaza Christian community of "proselytizing and trying to convert Muslims with funding from American evangelicals."

"This missionary activity is endangering the entire Christian community in Gaza," he said.

Abu Saqer claimed there was "no need" for the thousands of Christians in Gaza to maintain a large number of institutions in the territory.

About 2,000 Christians live in the Gaza Strip, which has a population of over 1 million.

His comments come after gunmen on Sunday attacked Gaza's Latin Church and adjacent Rosary Sisters School, reportedly destroying crosses, bibles, pictures of Jesus and furniture and equipment. The attackers also stole a number of computers.

The attack was the first targeting of Christian institutions since Hamas last week staged a coup against the rival Fatah party of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, seizing all Fatah positions and security compounds, essentially taking complete control of the Gaza Strip.

Hamas officials in Gaza claimed to WND Fatah was behind Sunday's church attack in an attempt to discredit Hamas to the international community.

Abu Saqer claimed he had "good information" that the attack really was a robbery aimed at the church's school computers, even though bibles and Christian holy objects were destroyed." By Aaron Klein, WND

In other news about missionaries, "in India Militants Threaten To Kill Missionary And To Harm Evangelicals
Suspected Hindu militants have threatened to kill a native missionary and to attack dozens of evangelical Christians in the Indian state of Uttar Pradesh, a major mission group has said.

In comments monitored by BosNewsLife Saturday, June 2, Gospel for Asia (GFA) said the militants threatened to kill one of its missionaries, Daya Marandi, if he does not leave the area "where he is currently ministering."

They also want "to harm about 60 people who worship at a GFA-affiliated church where Daya serves as pastor", the group said. "The extremists are demanding that believers in the church denounce Christianity and return to their former religions."

It was unclear Saturday, June 2, which group was behind the alleged threat. Several Hindu organizations opposes the spread of Christianity among especially 'Dalits', seen as the 'lowest caste' in India's centuries old system of Hinduism.

LAND PURCHASE
GFA President K.P. Yohannan said the threats were made after "extremists" learned that Daya was purchasing land to construct a church. The extremists allegedly tried to get the landowner to back out of the sale and even tried to purchase the land themselves.

When their attempts to halt the land purchase failed, militants became angry and the situation escalated, GFA investigators claimed. Yohannan said he had asked fellow Christians around the world to pray "earnestly" for Daya and his church.

Despite the tensions, he made clear that GFA wanted to remain active in Uttar Pradesh as it has "a population of about 150 million people and is one of the most unreached states [with the Gospel] in all of India."

MORE INCIDENTS
These are no isolated incidents. Two other GFA missionaries working in Uttar Pradesh were also attacked by militants but managed to escape "unharmed". One of the most well-known cases against missionaries was in 1999 in the state of Orissa where Australian missionary Graham Steines and his two young sons were killed by an angry mob.

GFA claims to support over 16,500 church planters in 10 countries across Asia who it says established about 30,000 churches among unreached villages and people groups. The organization also trains native missionaries at its 54 Bible colleges.

Christians comprise just over two percent of India’s mainly Hindu population of 1.1. billion people, according to several estimates." By BosNewsLife News Center

since you brought it up:
"Christians can only continue living safely in the Gaza Strip if they accept Islamic law, including a ban on alcohol and on women roaming publicly without proper head coverings, an Islamist militant leader in Gaza told WND in an exclusive interview.

The militant leader said Christians in Gaza who engage in "missionary activity" will be "dealt with harshly."

The threats come two days after a church and Christian school in Gaza was attacked following the seizure of power in the territory by the Hamas terror group.

"I expect our Christian neighbors to understand the new Hamas rule means real changes. They must be ready for Islamic rule if they want to live in peace in Gaza," said Sheik Abu Saqer, leader of Jihadia Salafiya, an Islamic outreach movement that recently announced the opening of a "military wing" to enforce Muslim law in Gaza.

Jihadia Salafiya is suspected of attacking a United Nations school in Gaza last month, after the school allowed boys and girls to participate in the same sporting event. One person was killed in that attack.


"Jihadia Salafiya and other Islamic movements will ensure Christian schools and institutions show publicly what they are teaching to be sure they are not carrying out missionary activity. No more alcohol on the streets. All women, including non-Muslims, need to understand they must be covered at all times while in public," Abu Asqer told WND.


Abu Saqer accused the leadership of the Gaza Christian community of "proselytizing and trying to convert Muslims with funding from American evangelicals."

"This missionary activity is endangering the entire Christian community in Gaza," he said.

Abu Saqer claimed there was "no need" for the thousands of Christians in Gaza to maintain a large number of institutions in the territory.

About 2,000 Christians live in the Gaza Strip, which has a population of over 1 million.


His comments come after gunmen on Sunday attacked Gaza's Latin Church and adjacent Rosary Sisters School, reportedly destroying crosses, bibles, pictures of Jesus and furniture and equipment. The attackers also stole a number of computers.

The attack was the first targeting of Christian institutions since Hamas last week staged a coup against the rival Fatah party of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, seizing all Fatah positions and security compounds, essentially taking complete control of the Gaza Strip.

Hamas officials in Gaza claimed to WND Fatah was behind Sunday's church attack in an attempt to discredit Hamas to the international community.

Abu Saqer claimed he had "good information" that the attack really was a robbery aimed at the church's school computers, even though bibles and Christian holy objects were destroyed." By Aaron Klein, WND

In other news about missionaries, "in India Militants Threaten To Kill Missionary And To Harm Evangelicals
Suspected Hindu militants have threatened to kill a native missionary and to attack dozens of evangelical Christians in the Indian state of Uttar Pradesh, a major mission group has said.

In comments monitored by BosNewsLife Saturday, June 2, Gospel for Asia (GFA) said the militants threatened to kill one of its missionaries, Daya Marandi, if he does not leave the area "where he is currently ministering."

They also want "to harm about 60 people who worship at a GFA-affiliated church where Daya serves as pastor", the group said. "The extremists are demanding that believers in the church denounce Christianity and return to their former religions."

It was unclear Saturday, June 2, which group was behind the alleged threat. Several Hindu organizations opposes the spread of Christianity among especially 'Dalits', seen as the 'lowest caste' in India's centuries old system of Hinduism.

LAND PURCHASE

GFA President K.P. Yohannan said the threats were made after "extremists" learned that Daya was purchasing land to construct a church. The extremists allegedly tried to get the landowner to back out of the sale and even tried to purchase the land themselves.

When their attempts to halt the land purchase failed, militants became angry and the situation escalated, GFA investigators claimed. Yohannan said he had asked fellow Christians around the world to pray "earnestly" for Daya and his church.

Despite the tensions, he made clear that GFA wanted to remain active in Uttar Pradesh as it has "a population of about 150 million people and is one of the most unreached states [with the Gospel] in all of India."

MORE INCIDENTS

These are no isolated incidents. Two other GFA missionaries working in Uttar Pradesh were also attacked by militants but managed to escape "unharmed". One of the most well-known cases against missionaries was in 1999 in the state of Orissa where Australian missionary Graham Steines and his two young sons were killed by an angry mob.

GFA claims to support over 16,500 church planters in 10 countries across Asia who it says established about 30,000 churches among unreached villages and people groups. The organization also trains native missionaries at its 54 Bible colleges.

Christians comprise just over two percent of India’s mainly Hindu population of 1.1. billion people, according to several estimates." By BosNewsLife News Center

how much money are we talking about, here? Could we have an accountant check all of this out, is there an accountant in the house? Hello?

tim im not sure if you understand what the gaza strip is. its the largest refugee community in the world. no one is wanting to live there, christians and muslims alike.
but the fact is that there is just over 7 percent christian altogether in the entire west bank- and gaza is overwhelmingly muslim.

somehow your misleading article suggests that christians are being oppressed in gaza, when they are not even there to begin with.

id be extremely interested if you could find any stats on current "missionaries" in gaza.

jihadiya salafiya is a fringe group that doesnt really represent the palestinian people-

to learn more about what is happening in palestine, go to this link-
http://www.palestineremembered.com/

the gaza strip has one of the most highly dense populations in the world- poverty is and has been extreme-

its important to not unwittingly fall for alarmist articles like the one above- which is only trying to demonize muslims in palestine- while ignoring the severe living conditions and suffering death and violence the refugees in gaza have suffered for half a century under israeli occupation.

the last thing people in gaza are concerned with are missionaries-
if you could list active missionaries that would be affected by this nonsensical salafiya statement, it would certainly lend credence to the article.

even the united nations emergency aid has to have israeli soldiers OK their admission into the isolated gaza- no one comes in or out of gaza without israeli say so-

public television also has done many many many specials on what is happening there- also NPR-

Space to think? Here is the reality and the truth:

By Aaron Klein
© 2007 WorldNetDaily.com

JERUSALEM – Christians can continue living safely in the Gaza Strip only if they accept Islamic law, including a ban on alcohol and on women roaming publicly without proper head coverings, an Islamist militant leader in Gaza told WND in an exclusive interview.

The militant leader said Christians in Gaza who engage in "missionary activity" will be "dealt with harshly."

The threats come two days after a church and Christian school in Gaza was attacked following the seizure of power in the territory by the Hamas terror group.

"I expect our Christian neighbors to understand the new Hamas rule means real changes. They must be ready for Islamic rule if they want to live in peace in Gaza," said Sheik Abu Saqer, leader of Jihadia Salafiya, an Islamic outreach movement that recently announced the opening of a "military wing" to enforce Muslim law in Gaza.

I mean, I think the thing to *question* here, in the world right now, is that idea, that there's any validity to ideas of these words that say things that must inevitably, it seems, bring conflict.

Is that the 'Good,' even in your God's terms?

Do we know better, now, how this plays out, than did who said these things?

Where does 'being a believer' in one of a few competing ideologies that say more or less the same thing make people more 'virtuous?'

Seems to me that there's been a lot of folks out there fighting for a long time, cause the 'other guy' must be the cause of all kinds of misery...

Maybe it's the fighting. Maybe it's the excuses.

I dunno, there, HL, a lot of that stuff there just doesn't make sense, as far as I'm concerned, any more than it makes sense from anyone else claiming, 'I'm not judging, *God* says I'm better than you, and get a special pass on bad stuff I might do.'

That bad stuff Frank quotes did happen, and was said.

He just seems to think he gets a special pass on bad stuff *he or his 'side'* does cause he thinks he's 'special and better than you' somehow.

Can't say I buy *that,* let me tell you.

All I see is a bunch of guys trying to 'conquer' and dissociate the responsibility onto some assertedly 'unquestionable' figure.

No, thanks.

Again and again and again, it is all about the foundations of the major religions. To reiterate for Professor Jackson:

1. Abraham founder of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have put Abraham on the myth pile along with most of the OT.

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth. Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of his sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian/Jewish sects.

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, possibly hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the Koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

4. Luther, Calvin, Smith et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism (from an on-line Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centred and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’"
The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life.

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/BUDDHISM/SIDD.HTM

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations/embellishments and myths surrounding the founders of said rules of life.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus for an analysis of Jesus' life to include his illiteracy.

Joan,

You got it all wrong about Islam; maybe you should checke your sources before passing judgment. We as Muslims are not supposed to judge or tell anyone whether they are going to heaven or not; that’s strictly in the hands of God. However, in the Quran God lays out for us humans the ways to achieve his grace. Basically, the path that leads to the garden of bliss, so to speak, is to acknowledge God as our creator and to do good deeds; in others words through faith and good works. I collected some verses from the Quran that might shed some light on the subject.

And they say: "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their vain desires. Say: "Produce your proof if you are truthful." Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to God and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. The Jews say: "The Christians have naught to stand upon; and the Christians say: "The Jews have naught to stand upon." Yet they profess to study the same Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but God will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment.

Those who believe in the Qur’an, and those who follow the Jewish scriptures, and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and is a believer (in God), verily, to him will We give a new Life, a life that is good and pure and We will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions.

Say (O Muhammad): "I am but a man like yourselves, but the inspiration has come to me, that your god is one God: whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the worship of his Lord, admit no one as partner.

But after them there followed a posterity who missed prayers and followed after lusts soon, then, will they face Destruction, Except those who repent and believe in God, and work righteousness: for these will enter the Garden and will not be wronged in the least,- Gardens of Eternity, those which God has promised to His servants in the Unseen: for His promise must necessarily come to pass. They will not there hear any vain discourse, but only salutations of Peace: And they will have therein their sustenance, morning and evening. Such is the Garden which We give as an inheritance to those of Our servants who guard against Evil.

The Day that He assembles you all for a Day of Assembly, that will be a Day of mutual loss and gain among you, and those who believe in God and work righteousness, He will remove from them their ills, and He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein for ever: that will be the Supreme Achievement.

He that works evil will not be requited but by the like thereof: and he that works a righteous deed - whether man or woman - and is a Believer- such will enter the Garden of Bliss: Therein will they have abundance without measure.

The Jews and the Christians say: "We are sons of God, and his beloved." Say: "Why then does He punish you for your sins? Nay, you are but men, of the men he has created: He forgives whom He pleases, and He punishes whom He pleases: and to God belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between: and unto Him is the final goal of all.

Those who invoke not, with God, any other god, nor slay such life as God has made sacred except for just cause, nor commit fornication; - and any that does this not only meets punishment. But the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to him, and he will dwell therein in ignominy, Unless he repents, believes, and works righteous deeds, for God will change the evil of such persons into good, and God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

They do blaspheme who say: "God is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! Worship God, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with God,- God will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

Jews are "saved" no matter what they do. Christians are "saved" just by "believing" and all the Jews will be killed when the "Messiah Returns." Muslims are saved the more non-faithful they killed the better. Here you have the litmo test, do you fit?

Ask yourself the simplist of questions regarding religion: If there were a god why in the name of creation would he not reveal his "requirements" for "salvation" so clearly there could not possibly be any misinterpretation. If you then went against his will, you would know what you have done and suffer the consequences. There would be no denominations ( mass evidence of confusion). Just with this simple test, would not mankind be better served and the "controllers" of the people and money be brought to an abrupt halt?

Ask yourself the simplist of questions regarding religion: If there were a god why in the name of creation would he not reveal his "requirements" for "salvation" so clearly there could not possibly be any misinterpretation. If you then went against his will, you would know what you have done and suffer the consequences. There would be no denominations ( mass evidence of confusion). Just with this simple test, would not mankind be better served and the "controllers" of the people and money be brought to an abrupt halt?

Ask yourself the simplist of questions regarding religion: If there were a god why in the name of creation would he not reveal his "requirements" for "salvation" so clearly there could not possibly be any misinterpretation. If you then went against his will, you would know what you have done and suffer the consequences. There would be no denominations ( mass evidence of confusion). Just with this simple test, would not mankind be better served and the "controllers" of the people and money be brought to an abrupt halt?

tom, as an engineer you seem scientifically inclined in your thinking- these are some of the same questions i asked myself many years ago-
the concept of original sin raises more problems than it solves- it seems to deliberately create a problem so that it necessitates a "problem-solver", one that any person (whose self-esteem is naturally corrupted and lowered by being born "sinful") could easily transfer their dependence onto a savior.
thus, no one ever takes responsibility for their actions because they can just rub the magic salve of redemption and clean up their dirty sinfulness- (although when they become clean there seems to be the negative tendency to judge and find wanting the non- clean) but thats human nature.
Now if there is really no consequence for ones actions- it doesnt seem to engender a more socially concerned and planetary responsible response as you've suggested- but rather a more irresponsible and selfish attitude in people.

so i have to disagree with the statement that if this is ones only opportunity, ones inclination would be to better it for coming occupants.
after all, who washes a rented car?

as for mr. dennets conclusions, one might also contend that the thousands of years of social interaction from which springs the current atheists ethical codes, were themselves derived from religious mores and paradigms which came before the dissemination of and sharing of atheist or existential philosophers- if there were isolated instances of free thinking philosophers we seem to have no evidence of any forming a credo of moral or ethical behavior.

by pointing out the inconsistency and illogic of some religious thinking you have unknowingly provided a small opportunity to elucidate exactly why islam is such a reasonable and natural extension of the human condition and our aspiring for more than just an animal existence.

there is a holistic aspect to islam that most seem completely unaware of- what is good for my sister and neighborhood and community and by extension country continent planet is good for me-
this is integral to islam and seems like it is something you would agree with.

the concept of original sin is anathema and even repellent to islamic thinking.
if it has to be defined, we are born in a state of original grace- natural and intrinsic to the god- and everything, the stones and fishes and trees and nebulae and even stellar dustmotes all composed similarly chemically and part of a great whole and rightness and in submission to the creator.
as a designer you would probably have some mirth if it were suggested to you that your software sprang into being spontaneously and through some chaotic random process.

would you agree that we humans try to create order out of chaos? not all maybe- but certainly many.

so out of this grace and creative spark and free will- we can turn to no magic mantra to save us.

basically the illuminative and redemptive qualities of islam are contained within our own minute and conscientious personal responsibility for ever utterance of our being.

our interconnectedness with all of humanity requires that we wash that rented car. and then let it go without expectation- its enough that we are trying consciously and considerately at all times.
that awareness is the core of our religion.

there is so much importance in intention tom.

my grandother kitty used to say that the wheel that squeaks the loudest gets the oil.

im not a very loud squeaker- and many of my co-religionists squeak in very murderous and insane ways- so thats all people know about-

you wont see anyone like me on fox news anytime soon- but just know that there is much greater depth and beauty in the truth of islam than the wheels of media are generating.

peace all, just a few thoughts- as for my disagreement with the interpretation of mr. dennet- well- its all in the name of peaceful dialogue i hope its taken that way.

for my christian brothers and sisters out there- i dont like to denigrate others beliefs and usually try to stay far away from it- i couldnt help but make the contrast from it though.
salaams

To Anonymous,

I understand the Christian tendency to blame man. As a software engineer, the idea of blaming the user for bugs in my programs is really shirking responsibility.

If you think about it, Adam and Eve are completely blameless (assuming for just a moment there ever were two creatures called Adam and Eve). Prior to eating of the forbidden fruit, they were innocent of the knowledge of good and evil. When someone or something directs them to do something, doesn't it require a knowledge of right and wrong in order to SIN?

Making another leap of faith, you would have to hold God responsible for mankind's fall. They did not know that this voice was not to be listened to whereas that other voice (the voice of God) was the only one. Not knowing right from wrong, how can you blame them for disobedience? Is this really an example of a loving God?

Now, let us look at one other aspect of original sin. Correct me if I'm wrong. We have God, sitting up in heaven and looking down after the orignal sin and saying to himself -- hmmmm, I do not like the way man behaves. There is too much sin. I know what I will do. I will turn myself into a human on earth, grow up to be tortured and brutalized and eventually killed. Once I am killed I can then reconcile myself with humans.

I feel so much better now. So the obvious question is, if the purpose of God transforming into a human to be tortured and killed so that he can forgive sin, why couldn't he just...... forgive our sins? Why did he have to go through all the torture, brutality and death if his purpose was to forgive our sins?

Maybe it is because I am a software engineer, but there just seems to be so many holes in the logic behind a loving God that the only way to conclude that there is a loving God working in your life is to attribute everything to God without any evidence from which to support this conclusion. Think about it, a loving God who seems to be more concerned that you believe in him than in anything else -- look up the first few commandments. A loving God that ignores the cries and plight of millions of people -- all for the sake of what -- free will?

Even the example ANONYMOUS gives of original sin implies that God needs to be excused for not preparing Adam and Eve correctly or for creating evil to begin with. Isn't it a little hard to swallow that God, who so adamantly wants us to kill our children if they even suggest that we worship something other than him, is still portrayed as a loving God?

I read from Daniel Dennett (Breaking the Spell) that when moral and ethical tests were given to atheists and religious people, it was impossible to tell which were which, from their test results. In other words, people have an ethical value system -- probably derived from hundreds of thousands of years of social interaction and not derived from God.

And finally, for those that abide by Pascal's wager -- betting on God is safer than betting against God because by betting on God, what do you have to lose -- assumes that God is too stupid to know the different between heartfelt, reasoned belief and playing the odds. It also makes a statement about your willingness to invest in the world today.

Those people of faith who people that judgment day is at hand, why would they invest in the long term betterment of the world? Of the environment?

But, if you believe this is the only opportunity you will have -- that there is no other life after -- then you will probably be more willing to work to improve this world than someone who cannot wait to get to the next.

the trinity.
crash of civilization is due to the trios:
1-corrupted faith and creed
2-corrupted scholars and executives
3-ignorant mass public

islam washed it all and still from adam till the last day.best bet for mankind.
the good news,
QURAN is preserved by the creator allmighty god who created heavens and earth and whatsoever between till the last day.

Iraq: 750,000
Afghanistan war: 180,000
Bosnia: 60,000
2WW: 20 million
Nuke Japan: 3 million

All are the works of Christian leaders and Christian countries.

Comparitively all together terrorism alleged by muslims killed less than 4000 around the world including liberation of Jerusalem by saladin (killed less than 200 comparitively by Catholic/Christian Crusade killed more than 2 million) and 9/11. Basically muslims killed less than any of the atrocities done by Christians because of the distorted Christian religion of fanatics. Read the following passages from Bible that inspires all the killing of civilions above. If you look at the numbers it seems muslims are all terrorists but if you count the body bags and actual killing is is so few you would be shocked and become a muslim like many I know by discovering the truth.

Bible..... the source of peace, murder first... read your self and compare who is more violent.

(12) And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:
(13) And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
(14) But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.
16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
18 That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God. (Deuteronomy)

Do your own research and draw your conclusion why islam is the fastest growing religion by conversion we like it or not.

Iraq: 750,000
Afghanistan war: 180,000
Bosnia: 60,000
2WW: 20 million
Nuke Japan: 3 million

All are the works of Christian leaders and Christian countries.

Comparitively all together terrorism alleged by muslims killed less than 4000 around the world including liberation of Jerusalem by saladin (killed less than 200 comparitively by Catholic/Christian Crusade killed more than 2 million) and 9/11. Basically muslims killed less than any of the atrocities done by Christians because of the distorted Christian religion of fanatics. Read the following passages from Bible that inspires all the killing of civilions above. If you look at the numbers it seems muslims are all terrorists but if you count the body bags and actual killing is is so few you would be shocked and become a muslim like many I know by discovering the truth.

Bible..... the source of peace, murder first... read your self and compare who is more violent.

(12) And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:
(13) And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
(14) But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.
16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
18 That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God. (Deuteronomy)

Do your own research and draw your conclusion why islam is the fastest growing religion by conversion we like it or not.

"There are many people who don’t believe in God and you have a right to your own opinion. But non-Christian believers shouldn’t try to demonize Christianity because in away it’s a form of persecuting, spreading lies and unjust prejudice."

Jon, I think the problem with this kind of thinking, especially combined with the 'Blame the Devil' idea, only leads to the presumption that 'Christianity is perfect, and if anything wrong is done by Christians, then it's really just someone 'persecuting me' for pointing it out and asking for it to stop.

Dangerous stuff, there, which leads to much grief. I know you don't think of yourself, that way, but it leads to the *literal demonizing and denigration as humans* of those tho don't believe, or who believe differently.

They're probably right to be pretty angry, given what's going on in the country and the world, right now.

And growing up on the backhanded insults.

And maybe even being subject to the hardships that come when Christians try to impose their religious views on things that could reduce some very real suffering in this world.

Consider that.

what an eloquent description of the selfless nature of pure love gary- science can't "prove" love or god yet, but it doesnt diminish their reality, does it?
you sound like you know of what you speak.

peace all

Thank you for your reflection Gary!

Evidence of a loving God? It is every where. We humans remain self centered self serving wretches who are the source of 70-90% of our own problems and we are yet permitted to exist.

Love isn't never having to say you're sorry. It's being willing to say you're sorry when you aren't sure what you did wrong.

Love is placing someone else's well being ahead of your own.

Love is a willingness to correct and discipline when necessary even when you know it won't be welcomed.

Real love isn't going along to get along. Real love isn't weak or soft nor does it depend on the actions of it's object.

Real love gives a tinker's dam and more.

Tom M. Thank you for sharing. If you don't mind I would like to share with you and the people in here about my feelings and views of Christanity? I understand exactly how you feel but I don't feel the same way as you do regarding life!

I believe that God made his creation good not perfect. Through the advent of Satan’s jealousy of Adam and Eve brought the first sin into the world. Satan lied to Adam and Eve to be disobedient to God’s warnings about the tree of death.

Keep in mind that God created the world free of death, illness, pain and suffering prior to the original sin. God never attended for man and woman to suffer. Man’s freewill with Satan’s masterful deception is what brought death into the world; not God!

Immediately after God’s judgment, the Lord told Eve that one of her decedents would avenge Eve and bring reconciliation, eternal life and open the gates of paradise once again. The redeemers name is Jesus Christ. The one who died to conquer Satan’s death only to take up life again to open the gates of heaven for those who seek him.

That’s what I believe. I believe it was God who is good. I blame Satan for all evil in the world. In the end God’s plan is to bring all his children to salvation; God doesn’t want his creation to perish under the lie of Satan! I believe that repentance is a small price to pay for paradise! And if what I say is true it is a very small price to pay.

If the gospel is true then I want to live and love my wife and children forever! How is God evil? If you really think about it death is really small in comparison to what God’s promises are! I’m not afraid of death because if Jesus Christ is who he says he is then death is meaningless compared to eternal life and happiness that will come.

If Christ and God are false like many atheists claim then I have nothing to lose by having hope in Christ! Right… My faith and personal actions in my life do not impose on others! Therefore my faith is good! In fact being a Christian makes me want to help people and this is a reflection of God’s love! When I give a homeless person a smile and treat them with dignity and give that person some money to help them get through the day isn’t that evidence to that person that I love them and that God loves them. Before I learned the Gospel of Christ I couldn’t careless for the poor! Sad but true! But now I care about people; all PEOPLE! That’s what the Gospel of the Lord taught me…

There are many people who don’t believe in God and you have a right to your own opinion. But non-Christian believers shouldn’t try to demonize Christianity because in away it’s a form of persecuting, spreading lies and unjust prejudice.

The gospel and revelations of Christ have truly touched my heart in away that words cannot explain. I think it’s almost impossible to communicate what you truly feel inside when it comes to the joy that the Lord has given me. I think that’s why so many people think Christians like me are crazy!  Ha aha ha. We get tongue tied and sometimes come across in the wrong way.

But in my heart I know that life is truly good. Life is a gift and regardless if you believe in God as the creator of the perfect gift you shouldn’t take life for granted. I don’t.

Much happiness to you all.

- Jon

actually islam does state that there are over 250,000 prophets sent over history and in all lands- not all prophets have been recognized by mankind or history- so as for ALLAH or the God waiting to communicate he/she has been sending messengers to us humans all along.
we have the option to listen if we choose.
when in my personal experience i find value in the message of islam- it bears no relation to how others perceive god.
if deconstructive thought is honestly in the search for truth, it will only edify and strengthen my own faith, and my own questioning only soldiifies my faith.

destructive criticisms based on negative intentions only sucks the energy out of the conversation, and instructs no one- nor encourages real dialogue.

personal evidence of how i know the God loves me, or anyone- is subjective but that does not invalidate the knowledge.

i think brother jackson is trying to draw the conversation to a higher and more transcendent level.

actually islam does state that there are over 250,000 prophets sent over history and in all lands- not all prophets have been recognized by mankind or history- so as for ALLAH or the God waiting to communicate he/she has been sending messengers to us humans all along.
we have the option to listen if we choose.
when in my personal experience i find value in the message of islam- it bears no relation to how others perceive god.
if deconstructive thought is honestly in the search for truth, it will only edify and strengthen my own faith, and my own questioning only soldiifies my faith.

destructive criticisms based on negative intentions only sucks the energy out of the conversation, and instructs no one- nor encourages real dialogue.

personal evidence of how i know the God loves me, or anyone- is subjective but that does not invalidate the knowledge.

i think brother jackson is trying to draw the conversation to a higher and more transcendent level.

To: Paul H.

Your understanding of what I was trying to say is absolutely correct. I had not really thought about why God would wait so long to send his son or prophet either, but it is certainly a good point.

Thanks for enhancing my post.

Dear Tom M. (posting of 19 June at 10:28AM),

Your response to the question of evidence, proof, and religion was one of the best I have ever seen. It was logical, coherent, and respectful. Your point about a god who would wait an unconscionably long period before helping mankind find cures for certain illnesses is well made. Your points about World War II hit the mark, too.

It also seems that the Christian and Muslim God waited a very long time to produce a son or a prophet who could enlighten the world. If God decided to wait at least 100,000 years after the first modern humans to provide such knowledge, why not wait another 2,000 years? By then, society would be able to see miracles occur and communicate them to the entire world.

The thought appears to be that faith outweighs reason, that believing something is better than experimenting and really knowing the truth. Believing can be evidence of faith, but it can also be evidence of gullibility.

Paul H.

Excerpt from today's WaPo:

More evidence of a "moderate" and "tolerant" islam or shall we say "mohammedansim". Some tolerance...

"Mohammed Ijaz ul-Haq, Pakistan's religious affairs minister, said Monday of (Salman) Rushdie's knighting that: "The West is accusing Muslims of extremism and terrorism. If someone exploded a bomb on his body he would be right to do so unless the British government apologizes and withdraws the 'sir' title. Ul-Haq insisted Tuesday that he meant only that the award could be used as a justification for suicide attacks...() Pakistan's foreign minister told The Associated Press that Britain should not be surprised by the reaction."

Hey Frank,
These people here are just baiting you. And though I find you going over the top sometimes, I do agree with your interpretation of islam by and large. The violent behavior, intolerance and fundamentalism should be given up by mohammedans. Then they would be accepted as a world religion and more importantly, a religion of peace.

What is the place of questioning the faith in islam? Are you even allowed to do that? Is it not considered heresy? Everyone knows what happens to those who want to leave islam. What kind of a punishment is reserved for heresy according to islam? Any mohammedans care to answer my query, please? Peace all :>

Space, the final frontier. Beam me up Scotty.

There is questioning where scripture is the only reasonable currency of exchange. This questioning of theology and the religious doctrines binds you to the Muslim community and a collective meaning of revelation and your common religious heritage. Not much space here, I would imagine. Because in this space the Koran rules as well as the other Islamic scriptures. It has to because any religion worth anything will close the space or you have no need for that religion. This is the whole purpose of religion and if Islam did provide answers, to those unfortunately mislead, to things beyond empirical evidence, then nobody would need it. You are bound to the community and as such you must respect the communal interpretations that come mostly from the heart of Islam, which is the Middle East. They do not much understand space over there. You won't find a forum, in those free thinking communities, like this one, where Christians can discuss space. Space is not a concept respected by Hamas, AL Queada, an Islamist, or Iran. And space was not a principle in Turkey when they butchered those Christians. Space was not there on 911. God it would be nice if in a Muslim community they afforded people like me the space you are given in the Christian world. My friend just got kidded out of Egypt for proselytizing for Christ and helping the Coptic Christians. Do you think you can get him some space? Possibly some lucky horseshoe space. Good luck.

Some recycled material on faith and belief

FAITH is not belief, it is love. Faith is not belief because there is no doubt in it, so how can you believe? FAITH is not rationalization at all: neither for nor against, neither this nor that. Faith is a TRUST, a LOVE. Heart does not know what doubt is, heart does not know what BELIEF is - heart simply knows trust. Heart is like a small child; the small child clings to the father's hand, and wherever the father is going the child is going, neither trusting nor doubting. The child is undivided. Doubt is half, belief is half. A child is still total. Whole.

Maha Baar Brother Jackson, et al;

The "E C L A T i - On" faith is "The religion Of Everything". And is before "The Theory of everything" as prophecied in your, or OURS, Five Major religious , includes "Glorious Koran," Un-Holy but Man & Women Made, never by a Cosmic Penn, or Stick or Shoes or stairwell or beam up or beam down etc... Story's Book(s).

Eclat + "i" is the LIFE and LOVE of PHOTONS & the Knowledge of this fact [Not Pre-Electric/Atomic knowledge of LIGHT] , being OURS reality and living a Miracle awared Life of knowing that WE was never born in Sin, contrary to Biblical

ZILZAL-IAN's (Satans, good Bad Angels, Hell, Heaven etc,,) and other Superstupin/stitious "PRE-Apocalyptic" character, "Novel-Stars", and the unthinking Thinking bolloxed folk who need a sobering UN-Bollixing Now!

As I've been saying lately, "Throw away your Pre-Apocalyptic UN-religious Books that are thee, Weapons Of Mass Destruction, a/k/a WMD! Ha, These weapon's are right in front of ours noses, all along. Wow!

It's True, There was "WMD's" as OURS great Prezident Mr. G.W. Bush, et al; have proclaimed, regardless if the "Intell" came from within-or Without.

Note: Eclati-On "Holy Cosmic Feeler(s) Faith" is both PUBLIC duty Bound & PRIVATE friendly.

Soon I will have "The Book of OURS" [One Universal Religion System], and How to usher-in "The Biblical Prophecy's, as promised via the (Jew, Zoroastrian, Christ, Islam, Hindu, Buhdda, siek, et al folks) AND "Guaranteed" US HUMATES. (Citizens of "Space-Ship" Momma Poppa TELL-US, Earth, Gaia, etc,,,).

IMPORTANT: According to the Eclati-On Prophecy, "The MORMON(s) Folks" (Not Just Because "MITT-ROMNEY" is now running for Prez) are going to Usher-In the "HEALING Of NATIONS, Gridarian-Democracy & more Good Tidings....."

All This is according to OURS great "PROPHET(s)" of "Relativity & Quantum Entanglement" and "Holy Cosmic "Spooky-Stuff" Feeler(s) Faith"; his Honorable, Albert Einstein et al greats, AND,

According to "Shiloh" The Photon Bringer", a/k/a "1st JOKTAN" a/k/a the Bishop Of Tellus", a/k/a "The Bard", a/k/a "Dr. Harry Theiault, and by seven more names. Not like the 99 names of Allah.

V.O.T.E. ((((((((( Peace-Love-Rock-n-Roll-n-Rap, Mitt-ROMNEY for Prez, 2008 YA! ))))))))))))))))))

Praise the Holy No Wom/Man and Nonjealous G-d thus fearless Almighty G-D/Eclat + "i" in and of US ALL!

"Sholohma is O.U.R.S. Shiloha, till death do US part & Beyond for more Miraculous "ESCHATOLOGICAL-POSSIBILITIES" of ours Infinite & immortal Heauristical(s) Planet Hopings of Many more Lives, so to speaketh.

BEHOLD: Fear-Not your own Eclat+i, in ths "System Of Miracles (zero nature's system of "Humates" Non Eclati "Infixus Books Sin) and the Holy Cosmic Heart beat, thus being "TOGETHER-FOREVER-WITH-SOURCE-ONE" Lord/Eclati.

WE exist, because the "Almighty" did not want to be Lonely ITSELF or IT (G-d never was or is or can becoma a He and, or a She, NO), so Eclat + "i" is about, Eternity Avoiding Loneliness via US-ALL. Ya Ya.

Note: where Photos never been before, then besides nothing exists external to ours great Eclati, that there is or was never LIFE.

Wherefore: Thus there is Life In Photons (not Pre-apocalyptic "Light/fire" thinkers of old pre-apocalyptic "old-Song, Not of "NEW-SONG", faith based living "System(s)"today).

Therefore: Notice the "SINGULARITY" in the Book of O.U.R.s. Note: You can Say, "The BOOK Of HOURS" where "H" stands for Holy!

This is because when "World Faith Exchanging" to create Hours/Ours book, that they will have "Valid Entry's" as scripute borrowed & agreed upon, and thus OURS/HOUR book will have both Holy/G-d Words or sentences [ ] AND; HUMATE-MADE, that will become Earth's Future Bound Kid's Genuine "Holy" Bible as "MANNA" from Universe not biblical Heaven or Hell(s) system of Holocausts creations and more.!

Behold: The MELCHIZEDEK [Ranks Higher than Mohammad, Jesus & Moses tooo] "Peace Blessing" is Upon US [Eclatarian's] Today, And the "Shiloh" [American MAHDI for all, not just Islam, Hindu etc,,] has reveresed the (PELEG) "Moses, NOAH's War Blessing". I mentioned this so many times before here and there & you never respond???!!!

You see what WE see? < ?: +)/ Ya Ya. Wa asaalam Walaikim! SHOLOM!

G-d Bless America & Friendly's!

thank you for insightful post. i may need to re-think some things.

Mr. Jackson, you are right that you can't PROVE that your wife loves you and by implication, can not prove that there is a loving God. But you can view evidence of love and in the debate about the existence of God, evidence for a loving God is sorely lacking.

The little things my wife does for me every day (and hopefully the things I do for my wife) are tangible evidence of her love. When I go to bed at night and she is first in the bathroom, I am likely to find my toothbrush filled with tooth paste.

If I start working early in the morning and do not have a chance to make coffee, I will find my wife in my office with a fresh cup of coffee.

I agree that is not proof, but it certainly is evidence.

So what evidence can we cite that demonstrates a loving God? I believe the evidence demonstrating no such being is overwhelming.

During WW II, why would a loving God ignore the prayers of millions of Jews when a few strategic heart attacks would have been all that was required to end that dark period?

Why would a loving God allow humanity to exist for thousands of years before INSPIRING scientists to discover the causes of smallpox, bacterial infection, viruses, the plague -- and only after tens of millions of deaths to inspire scientists to find a cure?

Some people conclude that God works in mysterious ways. That seems to me to be a way to excuse the apparent discrepancy between what we know as love and what we experience.

You are right that you cannot prove love but the evidence for love abounds, except for evidence from God. There is no evidence of a loving God working to make the world better.

I would also take exception with your conclusion that science is like a horseshoe. Yes, science certainly has a built-in mechanism for providing feedback and correction, unlike religion where even today in some places, questioning one's faith can get you killed. But overall, scientific theories have reached a point where they are accepted facts -- believed by both religious and nonreligious people. Certainly not all theories, but many theories. People accept the Bernoulli effect as fact otherwise they wouldn't venture onto an air plane.

Science has a built-in mechanism for review and revising theories until they reach a point of FACT which indicates acceptance by all and virtually no probability that evidence will be uncovered that would contradict the theory. These instances are not horseshoes.

Religion, on the other hand, is by definition subject to interpretation. So when I read in the bible that God destoys the world by a flood except for one family, I interpret that one way whereas someone else may interpret in another. (More evidence as far as I can tell, that there certainly is not a loving God). But where is the evidence one way or the other that would allow us to CLOSE the horseshoe, like we do with scientific theories? Because religion generally ignores or at the least, is agnostic toward evidence, one can never close the circle on the religious horseshoe. And so, each generation repeats the mistakes of the previous, passing on tradition as if it were evidence and basing beliefs on interpretation, rather than evidence.

You will never advance knowledge in this way and that is why someone who was magically transported to the 21st century from the 14th century, would fit right in with today's understanding of religion but would not be able to hold a scientific discussion with a 5 year old today.

When I heard the Pope declare that religion, faith the understanding of God should not be left up to the individual but should be interpreted by the church and then through that filter the individual should come to define his beliefs, I was a bit incredulous. Is there anything in this world that is more personal than one's relationship with their God filtered through their own perceptions and their own life experiences - the heart and soul knows it's God and the responsibility of the church should be to share in the joy of that understanding whatever that may be.