All Comments (53)

"How terribly unfortunate it is for non-Christian Americans, and for the world, that the conflict between these two American Christianities will direct the events of the 21st century." Really?
Are non-Christians really so unfortunate to live in a Christian nation like ours? Would it be better to live in a Muslim nation? Second class citizenship for Christians and Jews and much, much worse for non-Christians. Even the evangelical Christians I've known- and mind you I don't count myself among them- wouldn't support reducing Jews or even Buddhists and Hindus to dhimmitude. Would it be better to live in the sort of "Hindu" state the BJP envisions (granted their style of intolerant Hinduism is rather twisted- hence the scare quotes- as Hinduism has generally been extremely tolerant, but distortion or not it is an option some people are putting forward in India). Maybe a secular state is the best, but there even so there are a lot worse things for a state to be than Christian in the American style.

Religion is bad for you. Especially Fundamentalist "Born Again Christian" religion.

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

Read the study. Know the truth.

Over 'n out.

While Mr. Jackson makes a good (albeit obvious) observation that culturally Americans are acustomed to thinking about and using as context, western religions like Judaism and Christianity.
We don't think 'shinto' or Bantu as a rule. However, his repeated use of the phrase "America is a Christian Nation", wrenches my insides. This is the type of "Fox News", "Archie Bunker" thinking so many of us Americans are fighting against. The phrase itself, is not only factually incorrect but flies in the face of the religious freedom enshrined in our constitution and principles this Republic was founded on, regardless that the founders of this country may have been overwhelmingly Protestants and Christians.
What they wrote was a declaration of freedom from the corruption of religion and political power.
To separate the two permanently so that all men would be etenally free of religious persecution from the state. Further Mr. Jackson needs to meet more aetheists. They do not run to Christianity to justify anything, aethieists do not believe in a diety, any deity. They don't believe in Zeus, Ra, Yahweh or Jesus. Simply put they don't believe. And thats where the relationship ends, Aetheists are not a coherent group, we have no meetings, newsletters or agenda. Unless you call fighting for our rights not to believe and swear allegiance to someone elses 'god' an agenda. We come in all shapes and sizes, political stripe and cultural background. The only thing that you might say aetheists have in common is that we don't believe in a deity. If I heard a story about a nut job who goes into a nursery school and starts killing children, I would find it narrow, ignorant and crude to relate that tragedy as 'proof' of the existense of a deity one way or the other. As an aetheist, I must protest, not only the misunderstanding of the word aetheist, but also that America is a Christian nation.
Good observation, wrong conclusion.
MT

I dont think the brother here was saying that atheists are christians- i believe he was saying this is a question SOME atheists have asked OF CHRISTIANS
being in a culturally christain flavored society some atheists react against that- but most i believe take it a large step past simple reactionary behavior-(which is just the other side of the coin of religion) to think deeply and ask important questions themselves and use their brains to think beyond the boundaries of the strictures imposed by some religious teaching. on the other hand, simply out of hand rejection of many points of view simply because they are based on faith- is also a limitation- if an atheist is truly open minded (as i believe they define themselves i may be wrong) it seems that the views that contradict our own force us to challenge our own beliefs and find either substance and validation or invalidate them-
but im not trying to define atheists- they must do it themselves-

Perhaps those that are interested in the influence of Xtian beliefs on our country and how it has shaped our laws should take a look at American Gospel by Jon Meacham. Sam Harris' book is also interesting although in my opinion is really just a promotion for Harris' version of Buddhism by the end.

American values and even the government have been shaped by Xtian dogma, morals, and traditions. That doesn't make us a Xtian Nation anymore than it makes us a Jewish Nation or a pagan nation b/c of the traditions, saints, and belief systems that Xtians have assimilated over the past millenia into their religion.

I respectfully disagree with Professor Jackson's view that atheism is Xtian in this country. We live in a country that has a living public religion; it's something we should all just come to accept. It's not going anywhere. If it does, then liberalism has failed and it's time for you to pray to whatever deity you hold in your heart.

While our perspectives are certainly affected by the society in which we're raised, and the dominant religion will be a factor, the following comment represents a gross conceptual error:

"even American atheism is hopelessly "christian." A deranged man walks into a nursery and opens fire on the children. The rhetorical response of American atheists is commonly, "How could a just and merciful god allow such things to happen?"

The rational atheist realizes that the "deranged man" is the one responsible for the slaughter and would only pose the question, as stated, as a direct challenge to the claims of Christianity.

As the host of a live, weekly, call-in television program (The Atheist Experience), I'm often asked why we primarily tend to address problems and issues with Christianity. The answer is much simpler than the hypothesis Mr. Jackson presents:

Christianity is the most prevalent religion in America. That doesn't mean that atheists have been unwittingly infused with the jargon and perspective of that religion - but it does mean that this is the religion we most often encounter and are most likely to address.

When we talk about religious influence on public policy there is no other religious group who poses any real of threat to our rights and freedoms. There is no other religious group who continually threatens to retard progress by attempting to legislate ancient religious beliefs over reasoned, scientific facts.

While you may find me posing arguments against Christianity, you'll also find that I'm really presenting arguments against "faith". Faith (belief in something without sufficient evidence to support the belief or in the face of evidence to the contrary) is not a virtue. It is an exceedingly poor and dangerous method of attempting to discern truth. It is the height of gullibility. It's simply wishful thinking and it's high-time we encouraged folks to stop using it as a shield to protect them from reality.

Christian - Of pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His Teaching. Christianity - Conformity to the Christian religion or to its beliefs or practices.
Correct Jesus was a Jew. Yet some of the Jews themselves did not listen because he taught many things differently than what they were accustom to. He taught Jews and Gentiles alike. Paul may have started the church but Jesus founded Christianity thru his teachings and examples. He lead by example, he did what he said. Therefore, his church. I really think these words are loosely used. Unless you have a personal relationship with Christ you will just see these as words with mere meanings, as opposed to the true meaning of these words.
This country was founded on Christian beliefs and hence you see it in everyday life. Yes, its not perfect the way Christ is, yet please remember we were never meant to be. One of the precious gifts we were given was choice. And one of the reasons Christ died was to allow us forgiveness. It's out choice if we believe or don't. Yet I find it harmful for someone to use words and express their voice on Christianity and Atheism when it is clear their expertise is in Islam. I thank you however being that this just reafirms my belief. Thank you, Merry Christmas and May God be with you all.

Gen, that is absolute hogwash and somewhere deep down you know it. Civilization existed for thousands of years before Christ was born and it will continue for thousands more regardless of which religion is in power.

Perhaps for you Christianity is the only path to living a moral life. But that isn't true for billions of people in the world. Christians make up 1/3 of earth's population. Are all of the other 4 billion people incapable of morality? Are all 4 billion living in mayhem?

I'm one of them and I live a great and blessed life and I do not accept Jesus as my personal savior and I don't give a dog turd if I go to heaven or not.

But I'm one of the friendliest and most moral guys you could ever meet. So explain that please.

If we do not return to the christian faith the West has no hope.
http://www.realclearreligion.com

Someone finally has a point that is interesting; there is no doubt about that my atheist sensibilities are most frequently assaulted by Christian memes. The Taliban don't live here -- but the James Dobsons of the world do, and they are the Christian homolog. I guess maybe we really do live in a Christian nation.

David wrote:

The problem is with people like 'Martiniano' who want us to become a nation like the French or Canadians where they live by liberal values. That is why they don't compare to us, they will never succeed.

David,

Based on what I have quoted from you above I respectfully submit that you seem to have been suckered into the notion that Christianity is a conservative/republican value and therefore must be devoid of any form of liberalism. Your reference to France is rather revealing. You use the term "liberal" as though it is a dirty word. Was Christ not liberal in some ways? Didn't he advocate that whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that, you do unto me? Did he not help the sick, the hungry, and the poor? What would you call that? Conservative??

Godma,
Great website. I'll be visiting it again. The "atheism is really a religion" argument by theists drives me nuts, and I've never really seen the point of their pushing it. Later.

I started reading this thinking the article was going to make some valid points---but when the author gets to the point of saying, ''The rhetorical response of American atheists is commonly, "How could a just and merciful god allow such things to happen?" '' the arguments kind of fall apart--- An atheist has no reason to question 'the will of God' because there is no god. Likewise, most atheists are not so shallow as to assume that all theists, let alone all Christians-- even believe in a "just and merciful god"

It is true that in many ways Christianity has had a profound influence on the formation of Western culture. Unfortunately, the author fails to illustrate how this is so and instead chooses to make pithy and meaningless remarks about how he sees that "in America, even Atheists are Christian" (huh?) without fleshing out this idea in any coherent manner

It's a valid claim that many American atheists describe their disbelief in terms of the Christian version of God. This is not essential to atheism, but has to do with the larger culture in which we live. Atheism is about disbelief (i.e. lack of belief) in ANY deities.

Also, when an atheist makes a disparaging remark about someone else's belief in a deity, they are likely to tailor that remark to the audience at hand, which in America is most likely to be Christian. But you can be certain that the atheist would have a negative opinion on other supernatural entities as well, although they might be less familiar with their other supposed qualities.

Mr. Jackson,
If I were to make sweeping generalities about a religion, say, Islam for instance, just to illustrate a point I would be displaying my spectacular ignorance about it, and I would deserve the resultant avalanche of Muslims jumping down my throat. Before you make offhand remarks about atheists, talk to 100 of them. You'll get 100 different points of view, with some overlap. I suspect that you don't talk to them if you can avoid it, so you just use what you think atheism is as grist for your argument.
Would it be acceptable to you if I were to try to build the argument that "this is a Christian nation" by saying, "Even American Islam is 'Christian'?" I think you would be in my face telling me, correctly, that I don't know what I'm talking about.

As an aside,
I wonder if the panelists spend much time reading the responses that their questions generate. I have not yet seen any of them respond to the responses.

David-
To try to answer your question: "When they acknowledge the 'year of our Lord' who do you think they are referring to?" I suppose you are referring to the date 'A.D.' at the end of the Constitution. This no more refers to some deity than someone who was born in August is claiming an adherance to the Roman Emperor Caesar Augustus. It is merely the standard way most Western societies have accepted the way to date events, no more no less.

Martiniano

Jesus established his kingdom on the third day.

And also you David.

Sorry Martiniano,

That should say "May God bless you in all that you do!!"

Angela, it is not Christ's church. He founded no church while here on earth. Paul founded Christianity along with James and a few of the brothers.

Jesus was a Jew, not a Christian.

Martiniano,

May God bless you in all that do.

Angela,

God bless you!!

Oops, I put your name in the wrong place. That post at 3:23 was from Martiniano.

I have to disagree as I don't believe this is a Christian nation. If it was, we would not have abortion, the thought of gay marriage, keeping God out of schools. Most people who consider themselves Christans are superficial and don't have a clue what real Christianity is. God knows, we need this nation to be a nation of BORN AGAIN christians instead of anything goes. I know Jesus is grieved by what he's watching in this country and in his church with the likes of these so called "Theologians" that continually break the 1st and 2nd commandment.

David, I believe that God is the Creator of all we perceive and that is enough for me to devote my life to God in praise.

I do not require miracles to shore up my faith. I do not require "faith" or "trust" in God anymore than I require faith or trust that the earth will hold my weight when I take a step. God is. That is all.

I highly recommend you read about Deism as several of our founding fathers were Deists.

Martiniano
I don't equate all references to God as being Christian. I do feel the acknowledgements of the founding fathers to God, as being based on Christian beliefs. I am not to familiar with the Deist religion. I guess you don't believe in miracles or trust in God.

Bob,

My mother is Christian and reflects all of the beliefs you describe. I do not believe that ALL Christians fit my earlier description any more than I believe all Muslims are terrorists who want to destroy the West.

But what I say is that the fundamentalist Christians get the press. So when I see the Episcopal congregations splitting because of homosexuality it is another brick in the stocking for Christianity.

Even though I am a Deist I attend the Episcopal church because I believe my congregation embraces the best teachings of Christianity. They do wonderful things for people in need. And I can point to other Christians, the Mennonites for example, who I believe LIVE Christianity.

So please, get out there and show the good face of American Christianity and bring down those who call for assassination of world leaders, who oppose stem cell research, etc.

The public face of Christianity in the US is ugly.

Dr. Jackson, I do think your statements about Atheists requires further explanation. There are many atheists in America who go about their lives without making any reference to Christianity. I know because I was one of them for about 20 years before embracing my love for God.

Yes, it is human nature to define ourselves as for or against an iconic figure. But it makes light of Atheism to define it in terms of what it isn't (Christianity).

David, it seems that you equate any reference to God as being Christian. That just isn't true. God was praised long, long before Paul created Christianity.

Dr. Jackson thankfully mentioned Zoroastrianism. Have you studied this ancient Persian religion? It praises God, the Creator and source of all that is moral. It teaches that morality will lead to an afterlife and immorality will lead to eternal suffering.

Does that sound familiar? And yet this was taught 1000 years before the Jews were taken into captivity and wrote the Torah.

"God" is not Christ nor is God limited to the descriptions to be found in the Bible. To me, as a Deist, the Biblical (Torah, New Testament, Qur'an) descriptions of God are insulting in coming so short in describing the unimaginable beauty of God.

Martiniano,

I'm not sure where you got your ideas of what a "Christian" does or believes. I am a Christian, and have not bombed any womens' clinics or murdered any health care providers - in fact, I am pro-choice. I do not wish to see so-called "Intelligent Design" taught in schools, but rather in churches and homes where it belongs. I am completely neutral on the issue of same-sex marriage. I voted twice against George Bush, and am convinced that he is the worst president in US history, and possibly one of the greatest disasters in all of history. I am a proud liberal who believes that God is completely non-partisan. And most of the Christians I know have similar views to mine. So please don't judge all Christians by the rantings of a vocal minority.

Robert

I do not think all of the founding fathers were Christians as I do not think all of America is Christians. I think America was founded on Christian values, I think that if we live by these values then we will be a better nation. I myself have a lot of improving to do.

Robert

When they acknowledge the 'year of our Lord' who do you think they are referring to?

Robert B.

Any state that acknowledges that it is "under God" acknowledges that "God rules" and thus proclaims itself as a theocracy.

David:

Which God was Washington referring to? The Christian God? The Jewish God? The deistic God as "Prime Mover"?

My point is that you seem to think that all the Founders were devout Christians and had uniformly Christian beliefs. This is not the case, as reading aome works on early U.S. history would show.

Sandi, I consider myself an "atheist sympathizer," meaning that I hate it when any person or dogma tells me what to believe. When an atheist asks, "How could a just and merciful god allow such things to happen?" I suspect the atheist is not asking why there is suffering in the world. Instead, I suspect that the atheist is pointing out a contradiction in theistic doctrine. Specifically, the contradiction of an all-benevolent God deliberately causing suffering or allowing it to happen. Do you see this as accurate?

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Washington acknowledge that God is in Control.

It is interesting that non-atheists know so much about how atheists see the world. The idea that atheists would view a wacko with a gun in a context that involved a 'god' figure at all is bizarre at best, but more likely just ignorant.

As an atheist, if confronted with the situation of the gunman in the daycare, I can assure you that my thoughts would not travel to a notion of 'god'. It would be about what was wrong with the gunman that caused him to do this.

As much as christians would like to believe it, atheism is not a reaction to a specific theological construct. Instead, atheism is a belief system that doesn't rely on the supernatural for explanations of the natural. That's all.

No, anger at angels, and renunciation of virgin births. Those aspects of other systems of belief are curiosities but not part of my belief system.

David:

>

Oh dear Lord, another person who thinks that the Founders wanted a theocracy...

Have you ever read *any* of the works of the Founders? For example, Jefferson actually edited the New Testament in an attempt to reconstruct the true teachings of Jesus? Does that sound like a person who accepted Christian doctrine without question?

Of all the major founders, the one who was most "traditionally" Christian was probably John Adams, and even he embraced freedom of religion when he wrote the state constitution of Massachusetts.

Robert B.

Could the reason that we don't have a monarchy goverment be that they made an acknowledgement of who our king is. Many states had laws against Adultery. If the King of England would have representation for America would they have rebelled against him.

David you seem to skip over some things. Yes we are one of the younger countries, and yes the US has done some really amazing things, but at what cost! Alot of those christians were enslaving others for profit. It wasn't god's blessing that allowed us to excel economically, it was the fact that we stole the resources from those who lived here first and then enslaved generations of human beings all the while claiming god's grace and blessing.

We didn't put our faith in Christian Values...we put it in gold, silver and the almighty profit.

To describe atheism as a "rejection of God" strongly implies that theists are right and atheists are wrong. From an early age, most Americans are taught to think of Christianity as the "normal" religion, and even non-Christians absorb this kind of thinking. As long as we are stuck with that mindset, we will not get past these pointless dogmatic disputes. Dogma is not important - what is important is individual belief.

Sorry that I made typing errors. I had meant to typed I guess he means to say that atheists are really NOT Christian, but that the way they see the world is shaped by Christian discourse. No, the way they see the world is a refutation of spiritualism and an acceptance of rationalism. That does not make them lowercase, quotation marks-imprisioned christians.

I would also like to recommend this book:
The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason by Sam Harris

David wrote:

"is perhaps the founding fathers and the majority put our faith in Christian values instead of worldly values. "

So our nation is based on Christian values? Then why isn't coveting or adultery against federal law? Also, why don't we have a monarchy? Didn't the Apostle Paul say, "Fear God, honor the king?" By rebelling against their king, weren't the Founders sinning?

This is why this "Christian nation" question is so vexing. Most people do not recognize that there is a difference between being a "nation of Christians" (which we certainly are) and being a "Christian nation" (which we are not). The Founders (thank God) were clear-minded enough to see both the positive and the negative aspects of religion and took care to build a society that fostered the former while limiting the latter.

I think this raises the excellent point that simply by phrasing religious discussions in Christian terminology, atheists and other theists concede dominion to Chritianity as *the* American religion. Rather than seek compromises of displaying menorrahs next to xmas trees on the assumption that only Jews would have a reason to complain about December holidays, the discussion should be phrased in a way that represents the atheists, muslims, hindus, buddhists and any number of other individuals celebrate no major holidays during this time frame.

America was founded on Christian values that is why we are so great. The problem is with people like 'Martiniano' who want us to become a nation like the French or Canadians where they live by liberal values. That is why they don't compare to us, they will never succeed. You can't have a society were anything goes. The guiding of the 'evolution'world is what happened to these other countries. We are the youngest country but yet are the greatest country. Why is that?, is perhaps the founding fathers and the majority put our faith in Christian values instead of worldly values. I did vote Bush into office and would do so again, considering the other choice.

All of the discussions by the Faith Panelists and the commentators on whether America is a Christian nation are exercises in labelling and semantics. Whether you consider American to be *Christian* or not, the only things that matter are what America and Americans do. Let*s pay attention to that.There*s no need for adjectives.

A goup of individuals who hold somewhat the same understand of "God" "christ" and religiously adhear to "these" constitues a "christian nation" speaking from a layman's perspective. It's basic founding were by individuals who understood and agreed that this should and would be a christian nation. The sad part is that individuals who KNOW this to be a christian nation can not overcome this, so there battle cry is "if you can beat'em then join them" clouding the "understanding" with perverted stances ie same-sex marriages...Anyway see Israel as reference.

This was one of the most deeply thought out responses to this question I have heard, I'm surprised at all the negative feedback.

I believe America has been deeply influenced by the Judeo-Christian culture, but there are many within the church who do not feel there is a difference between culture spiritual beliefs. Example, we put up Christmas trees on Christmas even though they are based off a pagan tradition and many of us do not attend X-Mas mass. I also believe many misinterpretted his comment about so called "christian atheism". He was not saying atheists are christian, but that they have been heavily influenced by a judeo-christian culture, so that they instantly question the god celebrated by Christians, as opposed to other faiths.

Off topic - Why is it that missionaries carrying a christian message are smiled upon, but those spreading a message questioning christianity (or spreading another interpretation of it) are viewed as heretics? In his own time, didn't many view Jesus in this same manner?

As usual, Dr. J nails it right on the spot. Our perceptions are shaped according to our environment. Its no coincidence that modern American atheism is a reaction to particularly christian understandings of spirituality. Likewise, a lot of the Atheism in muslim countries nowadays is a reaction to Islamic extremism.

This is so profoundly stupid I don't know where to begin.

Professor Jackson, it certainly is true that the majority of religious people in the US are and have been Christian and because we are a democracy it is only natural that the beliefs of the majority have informed our State.

I believe the context of the question, is the US a Christian nation must be narrowed to Christians in America today. What jumps out at a Deist like me is that Christians, at least the most active Christians, want to move our society backwards just as the Taliban moved Afghanistan back 1000 years.

The US Christians want to change the constitution to outlaw abortions. The lawfulness of abortion has been decided for several decades. The majority of Americans support abortion. They've bombed clinics and killed Doctors and social workers.

Christians, some, want intelligent design (creationism) taught in our schools on par with evolution.

Christians want to outlaw homosexual marriages, while inexplicably calling for "family values".

Christians voted Bush into office even as many of us foresaw the disaster his presidency would become. Their decisions seem inbred and without open debate.

These are just a few issues that jump to my mind as I write. The Christian stance on each of these issues is absolutely frightening to many Americans. So although the US constitution was informed by Christian beliefs, it is up to the people to guide the development, the evolution, of our nation. It would be a huge step towards Talibanism if we were to legislate a national religion or even officially state that the US is a Christian nation.

America in 2006 might be better understood not as a nation divided into red states and blue, but as a nation divided by two Christianities.

Americans who consider themselves Christian may be broadly and perhaps overly generalized as thinking about Jesus in one of two distinct ways. For many, Jesus was a divine spirit who died for their personal sins. To accept him as your savior is to be saved, and the pursuit of one’s personal salvation is paramount to all other concerns. One’s personal and exclusive relationship with Jesus matters far more than his admonitions to care for the poor, the weak, and the oppressed.

For a smaller number of Americans, Jesus is believed as a peasant revolutionary who lived by example, and died for grace and compassion. To model your behavior after his is to bring heaven closer to earth. To turn away from your fellow human beings is to turn away from his teachings, and from God.

While acknowledging and celebrating the presence of millions of Americans practicing religions other than Christianity, or practicing no religion at all, the simple fact remains that most Americans define themselves as Christian. How terribly unfortunate it is for non-Christian Americans, and for the world, that the conflict between these two American Christianities will direct the events of the 21st century.

Mr. Jackson's entire argument completely falls apart when he writes this:

"even American atheism is hopelessly "christian." A deranged man walks into a nursery and opens fire on the children. The rhetorical response of American atheists is commonly, "How could a just and merciful god allow such things to happen?"

First, it is unclear why he uses "christian." What are those quotation marks doing there? I guess he means to say that atheists are really Christian, but that the way they see the world is shaped by Christian discourse. No, the way they see the world is a refutation of spiritualism and an acceptance of rationalism. That does not make them lowercase, quotation-imprisioned christians.
Second, an atheist would not have that rhetorical response unless he was engaged in a dialogue and trying to give evidence against the claim that an all-powerful and all-loving god rules the universe. A physicalist (a better word to describe someone who does not believe in spritutal matter) would never have that reaction if he were trying to determine how such an event occured.