All Comments (944)

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Thx! :)

Cool site! Helpful topic! :)

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The word of most of these religions seems to be that 'we will all end up in oblivion' seems to be correct and between them they are going to make damn sure we get there.

Until we stop indoctrinating our children that there is something up/out there listening and watching us we will go into our own man made oblivion and the earth will carry on, all the better for our demise.

What a waste. So near, and we let the squabbling 'believers' take us down.

Try again old Earth.
You have a bit to go yet.

Cool topic! ;)

Cool topic! ;)

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I am interested on hearing what you, Dennet, Dawkins think about Kant and his critique of pure reason.

Mr. Harris,
Just a comment on "Muslims, however, believe that Jesus was not divine and that anyone who thinks otherwise will suffer the torments of hell (Koran 5:71-75; 19:30-38)."

If you are quoting from Quran, you should do it correctly, the lines you wrote do not really convey the complete message of the actual text.

I am giving you the actual text below for your reference and better understanding.

Chapter 5

71 They thought there will be no Fitnah (trial or punishment), so they became blind and deaf; after that Allah turned to them (with Forgiveness); yet again many of them became blind and deaf. And Allah is the All­Seer of what they do.

72 Surely, they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is the Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary)." But the Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)] said: "O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Verily, whosoever sets up partners in worship with Allah, then Allah has forbidden Paradise for him, and the Fire will be his abode . And for the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong­doers) there are no helpers.

73 Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no ilah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilah (God -Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them.

74 Will they not repent to Allah and ask His Forgiveness? For Allah is Oft­Forgiving, Most Merciful.

75 The Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary), was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother [Maryam (Mary)] was a Siddiqah [i.e. she believed in the words of Allah and His Books (see Verse 66:12)]. They both used to eat food (as any other human being, while Allah does not eat). Look how We make the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to them, yet look how they are deluded away (from the truth).

chapter 19:

30 "He ['Iesa (Jesus)] said: Verily! I am a slave of Allah, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet;"

31 "And He has made me blessed wheresoever I be, and has enjoined on me Salat (prayer), and Zakat, as long as I live."

32 "And dutiful to my mother, and made me not arrogant, unblest.

33 "And Salam (peace) be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!"

34 Such is 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary). (it is) a statement of truth, about which they doubt (or dispute).

35 It befits not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son .Glorified (and Exalted be He above all that they associate with Him). When He decrees a thing, He only says to it, "Be!" and it is.

36 ['Iesa (Jesus) said]: "And verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord. So worship Him (Alone). That is the Straight Path. "

37 Then the sects differed [i.e. the Christians about 'Iesa (Jesus)], so woe unto the disbelievers [those who gave false witness by saying that 'Iesa (Jesus) is the son of Allah] from the meeting of a great Day (i.e. the Day of Resurrection, when they will be thrown in the blazing Fire).

38 How clearly will they (polytheists and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) see and hear, the Day when they will appear before Us! But the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers) today are in plain error.

It's a great achievement for Islamic leaders and scholars as well as Newsweek and the Washington post to present this imperative opportunity for inter cultural and global philosophical dialogue. What's important is that by exchanging our ideas and comments regarding inter religious relations and world events that affect our views of each other as fellow human beings. Since the advent of humanity, We strove to make sense of the world we live in and the lives we've experienced. Worldwide curiosities to learn the true nature of life and our universe is an exceptionally rare virtue upon life on Earth. In other words, we're the only known species on the planet who've pursued to unravel these great mysteries and developed written philosophies based upon our understanding of the world around us.
One such philosophy that lasted throughout the ages of humanity is commonly known as religion and spirituality. Ever since our early belief in the Sky God and the God Mother from ancient Pagan times, we vigorously pursued to unravel the truth about our most profound questions. As any educated person would know that religion and their core beliefs or faith have evolved over time. Paganism, Monotheism and Polytheism have been influenced by humanity as these great philosophies have influenced our perceptions and decisions in life over the ages. Over time humanity has embraced diverse religious faiths and spiritual convictions that continue to influence our behavior in our times and most likely beyond.
What's vital for humanity's progress and even survival is to know the true nature of faith itself. To understand the true origins of faith. But most of all, is to accept the truth for whatever it may be. Each one of us will learn the absolute truth once we die. But until that time comes for anyone of us to depart this world, we really don't know the answer to God's existence nor do we have the absolute truth in regards to the true nature of God. Besides if we did possess the truth, there would've been only one religion on Earth with no diversification of any way, shape of form. There would only be one holy scripture written throughout human history.
Considering one's religious faith to be absolute, while considering others to be false would be ethnocentric at best. While collectively searching to unravel the mysteries on nature, life and the universe through sincere reasoning and serious research would be enlightening at its worst. Most importantly, we must accept the fact is that none of us have conclusive evidence to confirm our core beliefs and there's always an immanent change that our most cherished beliefs could be wrong. Our greatest challenge would be to tolerate the truth no matter what it may ultimately be. With such an open mind, we would be able to overcome any future discovery that would contradict our faith regarding the true nature of life, spirituality and divinity.
Humanity does have the ability to achieve such a social achievement. However, it's solely up to humanity and not any other entity or groups of entities to decide our destinies. Each one of us has a choice to make; either hopelessly engaging into meaningless inter cultural conflicts or combine our scientific and cultural gifts to thrive into an enlightened global civilization that could ultimately expand beyond our solar system. The choice is yours, and the time to make it is now!

I'm a Muslim and I do not believe that anyone who believes differently from me will "spend eternity in hell for his misconceptions about God". To the contrary, I believe in the "Generosity and Mercy" of Allah (He who is above all).

If one wishes to believe in a literal rather than a metaphoric vision of God then of course one believes in a literal conception of Heaven and Hell.

But the Holy Qur'an repeatedly reminds us that God speaks in Metaphors and Allegories.

Why?

Because God is beyond human comprehension. The description, "Allah Hu Akbar" means not just that God is "Great" but that God is the "greatest" as in "above and beyond, all".

To comprehend "The Ultimate Reality" one needs to be able to rise above, and transcend "human" reality. Beyond Human conceptions of "heaven and hell".

As Sam Harris points out, "scientific discourse has produced an extraordinary convergence of opinion and remarkable results".

While I agree that one might not find this kind of convergence in what I might call, "mundane" religious ritual, when when travels by way of ethical practice, charity, piety towards spiritual development, you see a similar, dare I say, even more powerful convergence of belief.

Imam Ali, Prophet Muhammad's first Muslim (one who surrenders to the will of Allah) said,

"Man arafa nafsa hu, Faqad arafa Rab hu" meaning he who "understands" (knows) himself, knows Allah.

The one who truly surrenders and is able to shake of the shackles of the limited "human" reality and is able to rise to "his" true nature will be able to "see" his "spiritual" self and simultaneously, to "see" God.

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Mr. Harris is brilliant, and very brave. Although I do believe in God, I have always felt that organized religion is an evil. They all think their interpreation of the Bible is the right one and that everyone else is wrong, they are all divisive, and they all make God way more complicated than they should.

Worst of all, there is absolutely no difference between the religious fanatics who have so shamelessly been allowed to take over this country, and the people who flew the planes into the World Trade Center on 9/11. NO difference.

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The primary thing wrong with religion is that anyone thinks that they are not interdependent upon everyone else for surival and salvation.

Most religions don't teach this simple fact, and give elaborate theory of why they are chosen to be the preferred group by God.

Yet, science shows that humanity may easily destroy the earth, easier than it may protect it.

If the earth is destroyed, the point of faith is moot, since the earth God made no longer exists.

The choice for mankind, therefore, and perhaps his test, is whether he can cooperate among the earth's people sufficiently to sustain the earth.

And that is God's test for humanity - truly a trial by fire - of good and evil - of survial or extinction.

Hi Victoria,

If you send an email to ImagneMe@Aol.Com I will be able to invite you to our website.

Thanks

Email

Victoria,
Hmmm. Not sure what is wrong. I'm typing my email address into the slot here below where I post my name. Maybe you can use that. If not, open your own email inbox, click on Compose Email, or the equivalent to send a new message, type niceatheist@ca.rr.com into the "To" space, make sure it is spelled exactly right, and just send me a short note saying what you would like to do. I can return the info to your email address. Don't post it here. Don't give up if it doesn't work. We have other email addresses we can use if there is some glitch. Road Runner is having some problems with email lately. I'll get another email address that Pat has and be back here with it tomorrow. We'd love to have your company.

well im not quite sure how to use it richard- i tried putting it in the search box but got referred back here- and i tried sending it as a email address but it failed- im afraid im not too computer savvy so tell me how to go about it peace

Victoria, if you're interested, we all got together into the site by using an email I created, niceatheist@ca.rr.com
If you use that I can send you all the info and the entrance code. You can change your mind and I will delete all records of your email, no hard feelings. You can also easily create an alternate email just like I did. That way your regular one is not affected or put in any risk.
We all really hope you'll join us, but we understand if you don't want to.

Wow she's fast. We should like hide in here and next time she comes whizzing through we jump out and say, "Hi Victoria!! Surprise! Wanna be in our group? It's called Freethinking Friends. It's no big deal, but we do have a complete First Aid room for wounds from the On Faith threads. You'll get lots of TLC. We're good at patching each other back together, and we have a lot of laughs"
But she comes by so late. I'm sleepy.

it tomorrow- hi again- ok bye

Hey all - thanks for the kind words- no time right now but insha'ala ill be back tomorrow-
my its nice to be welcome -

Victoria, I hope you will decide to join us.

Richard, you are the absolute BEST. Thank you.

Victoria, this is the honest truth, I think you're more of a freethinker than tons of atheists I've seen.

VICTORIA,
Pam, Tammy, Ted, Alain, Robin, Torrey, and I spent so much time down here by ourselves we came to have a very fond affinity for each other. We found that we all valued respect over being right. We started a private site where we could congregate away from the noise and prying eyes of the rest of the world. We share our adventures out in blog land and the real world, kid around, laugh, cry, lick our wounds, and generally enrich each other. We would like to invite you to join us. We're all atheists or agnostics, but we would be honored to have you add your special, gentle wisdom to our group. Let us know here if you are interested. If not, that's okay just say so, so we won't pester you as we continue trying to find you.

What's most interesting about Jesus is that he wasn't Christian or Muslim, but Jewish. Learn more here:
http://www.resourcesforlife.com/groups/jesusforjudaism/

Hi Mike Murphy welcome to you. This is the first page of Sam Harris and I must say most of us have moved on to other pages.

I do check back now and then but since the page has become so long not many others do. Just try and look at the mentally ill postings as a lesson in patience and tolerance. I just tell myself that they "know not what they say". Chuckle to myself and move on.

It's encouraging to have so many valid opinions(I'm, of course, referring to the athiest one's, particularly Sam's)put out here in the open, but it would be so much more pleasant if we didn't have to sift through the moronic ramblings of the mentally ill (I'm referring, of course, to the theists) just to read worthwhile input from an intelligent person. --I'm referring here again, of course, to you admirable realists out there. It's comforting to know there's at least a few of us here. Thank you.

My apologies for posting three times. For soem reason or other my message took ages to appear.

Many of them are faking it because being churchless is the political kiss of death.

If you go to the main page of the On Faith discussion you will find an interesting tabulation of the religious affiliations of the representatives in Congress.

Those with no religious affiliation number 6 in the house and none in the senate. This represents 1.1% of congress as opposed to 14.1% in the population as a whole.

So it would seem that atheists, agnostics and pantheists are very poorly represented in Congress.

If you go to the main page of the On Faith discussion you will find an interesting tabulation of the religious affiliations of the representatives in Congress.

Those with no religious affiliation number 6 in the house and none in the senate. This represents 1.1% of congress as opposed to 14.1% in the population as a whole.

So it would seem that atheists, agnostics and pantheists are very poorly represented in Congress.

If you go to the main page of the On Faith discussion you will find an interesting tabulation of the religious affiliations of the representatives in Congress.

Those with no religious affiliation number 6 in the house and none in the senate. This represents 1.1% of congress as opposed to 14.1% in the population as a whole.

So it would seem that atheists, agnostics and pantheists are very poorly represented in Congress.

Wow-thanks, Jim from PA,& of course Pam.

Jim from PA just sent me this interesting website. Hope it works for you.

Beliefwatch: Blasphemy
'Hi my name is Lindy and I deny the existence of the Holy Spirit and you should too.'

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16409851/site/newsweek/from/ET/

Hello, and good day to everybody.

I'm with you, Pam, it must be an act(it does make her a ton of money), at least that's what we can tell ourselves to keep our own little bubbles from bursting. Can that Pat Robertson be kidding, too?

Hi Tammy,

Coulter makes me crazy. When she is on I want to jump through the TV and rip her face off. I don't know anyone these days that just sets me off like she does. I often think it may just be an act. But god help us if it isn't. She is a dangerous woman.

I love all the dumb blond jokes. My friends send them to me all the time. I so relate to them. LOL LOL

good strategy tammy- i always like to keep everyones expectations extremely low- i can onlu o up from there- as a matter of pop interst i watched slaughterhouse 5 the movie tonite

Okay, after this, I really will go away for a while, but I was just re-reading the brights thing, and I agree that it doesn't work in the same way as gay or queer because nobody uses bright to insult somebody else.
If we're gonna use one of their words for us, I like godless.(This is my disclaimer; I have not read Ann Coulter's book by that name, I've just heard her yack enough on T.V.)

Okay, now I'm the one swearing, but I honestly have a Marvin the Martian t-shirt that says Space Cadet on it.
Pam, they say you have more fun! I thought it would be fun to use dumblondeatheist as an online name for myself, even though I'm not blonde, and I know plenty who aren't dumb. I thought it would be a cool name because people almost always drop their guard when they think they're smarter than you. In the end, of course I couldn't use it because it is an undeserved stereotype that shouldn't be perpetuated.

Pam, have you checked out the Main Page articles? There are posts by Christians who want to redefine God, and so far it seems like more atheists are responding. It's very interesting reading over there, but I have to sleep sometime.

Tammy

I am the "space cadet". I was a blond my entire life and you know what they say about blonds??

Since then "space cadet" has taken on a new meaning, that is, someone with only one retrorocket firing.

Thanks, Ted. I love "Stranger in a Strange Land", and I've always meant to check out more of his books. I wish there was a way I could get my master's degree in Conjecture and Science Fiction, or get hired anyplace with a degree like that.

Tammy:

Space Cadet is a 1948 science fiction novel by Robert Heinlein -- whom many regard as one of the top science fiction writers of all time. Heinlein was very much into life extension. . . Ted . .

Who wrote "Space Cadet"? I don't think I've ever heard of it.

im really pleased that i posted here - yes i dont assume we are at the top- i posted this question the other sam harris post and also said that the ability to kill creatively doesnt seem sufficient to me-
i was asking from an evolutionary point and that seems to be the word right now-

as far as the soul atheists and theists seem to agree that its in the realm of belief- so anyones opinion is as valuable as the next-

TAMMY i swear (actually i dont know if its politically incorrect to swear here- the swear presumably for me being on god) that i used to sign off elsewhere with SO LONG AND THANKS FOR ALL THE FISH and i was really going to do it here!

dont get me started on my asted youth in the nose of a scifi book- my firdt day of high school i walked around with a copy of SPACE CADET and of course- that became on of my nicknames thru-
thanks for the reasonable discourse friends
peace

Victoria,

I don't think of myself as having a soul in the religious sense. A soul that is going to heaven or hell as I don't believe in either.

I do believe right now in an inner sense that tells me if I am doing right or wrong or shows me a need that someone may have that I can help with. That allows me to care for myself and others. I can't say if that is what you are speaking to as a soul.

I have often read about people who say they had near death experiences and that their soul has left their body and floated above them and then returned to their body. I have no explanation for that except that I think the mind can play strange games on people at times.

I think the mind is a wonderful but strange part of the body that we probably know little about at this point in time.

In all honesty, I am not exactly sure at this point but I can say that I think that when I die that will be the end for me. I see no point in looking for an afterlife. But I suppose we will all find out someday won't we?

That is funny, Richard, that we were all answering the same question at the same time, and from our own perspectives but with similar sentiments. Well, have a good day, everyone.

I can't stop thinking about poor Shamu and all those poor captive dolphins. Did you guys know that their lifespans are cut almost in half when we keep them in tanks? It's like they need the tides or something in order to live out the fullness of their lives.The moral of the story is that my poor deprived younguns won't get to see a live dolphin until we get them to the beach.(See we all will preach about something if given anything that looks like an oppurtunity!)

I forgot to thank Jim Hanley for leaving us his poem to read. I wonder if he's set it to music, it could be a cool song.

Looks like Ted, Tammy and I were all typing at the same time.
Hi there. Also looks like there is some consensus. That's cool, or does it mean we're all deluded in the same way? Oh well. Got to get to work. Later

Hi Victoria,
These are my views, not the Truth.
No, we're not at the top of any hierarchy. We're just better at killing off everything else. We are equal to every other living thing in the sense that we are all equally the descendants of good survivors. We are all actually cousins. Let that idea sit in your mind for a moment, and you may see it's a beautiful way to see the world and its, and our unity. Amoebas, cockroaches and dolphins are just as "advanced" even though their species have been as they are for much longer than we have. They have simply found a physical structure and behavior patterns that have continued to work well in their environment.

Stop and question the assumption of superiority and so many people's desire to feel that way, and to scramble around seeking proof of being "better. " Just because some scientists and some non scientists strut that stuff doesn't make it correct, or more importantly, doesn't make it meaningful. It is a destructive vanity, and it's a great liberation when people let go of it.

In evolutionary terms, we are a recent experiment, and so far the results are mixed. Changes in structure either work well or cause extinction. Big brains may not in the long run be such a good idea. At one time there were as many as 6 big brained primate species living at the same time. We're the only ones left. It has cost us having lousy teeth, and worst of all the longest period of helpless childhood in the animal kingdom, where we look up at our parents who provide, judge, reward and punish us. That leaves a lasting impression, so we invent a new parent in the sky to do the same thing after we're grown. What we're doing with these large brains lately is setting up serious threats to our survival.

I can't answer your questions about a soul, because I don't know what you mean. If you mean a consciousness and an identity transcendent of the body that I would call "me," then again, as with god, I see no convincing evidence. Even in life, "self" is an elusive thing, as the Zen Buddhists point out very well.

Your husband's prison puzzle is fun, but we don't lock up people's physical bodies per se. We lock them up because of their behaviors, and behaviors persist beyond the life cycle of any cell. When and if we think their behavior will remain acceptable, we let them out. Actually that 7 year thing is a myth; some cells replace very quickly, and others, I think, like ovums and brain cells last the lifetime of the organism.

I don't understand your last question about presenting faith in esoteric form etc. Who do you mean about holding themselves to standards?

I have much to do in the next 3 days, so I may not be able to respond very promptly. But look for me here; I'm not visiting any of the other threads any more.

Peace.

Ted and I must have been typing at the same time! I didn't answer you about our souls Victoria, but so far I doubt that it's anything outside of my own consciousness. I doubt that I will survive my body's death. At the same time, I can't help but feel elated sometimes, like each of us is (or at least has a chance at becoming) divine, because of the amazing good that we humans can do when we put our efforts into doing what's right.

Every one of us living on this lucky little planet is an unrepeatable miracle of nature. That's cool with me, as that's the simplest answer at this point, but of course my understanding is always evolving.

Hi Victoria-I haven't checked out the other threads yet today, but I'll have to see what kinds of answers you got. I don't think it's a matter of humans being superior over dolphins. It could turn out that they're more intelligent than us, and I don't know evolution inside & out, but I think we are a younger species than they are. You're right; they live in harmony with nature and have done so longer than we have. Time will tell if we can become superior, but that obviously won't happen if our environment is demolished. This dolphin business reminds me of "So Long and Thanks for all the Fish" If you like funny stories and haven't read them yet those Douglas Adams Hitchhiker books are hilarious.
Also, as I understand it, we aren't supposed by scientists to be the top of a hierarchy. We just happen to be the only hominid species to have survived this long. There's a good web documentary called Becoming Human; I've mentioned it before, but it's cool because you can flip around in it and watch it in whatever order. I'm pretty sure there was a map somewhere on there that shows the locations of the sites where they've found these ancient people.
I don't think we renew every cell in our body on the exact same day every 7 years, I'm just trying to imagine how that would work. As for concsiousness itself, I was just trying to read a book about it("Dragons of Eden",by Carl Sagan), but I haven't gotten through the second chapter yet and hope to get back into my book now that the school break is over. I think that with the MRI and whatever else they can do to listen in on our brains functioning, they either have or will locate our consciousness' home in there somewhere. Maybe someone who gets more time to read hard science books gave you a better answer for that, and I will benefit from it as well, so thanks for asking!

Victoria:

It is kind of you to regard this as a safe environment. The small group of us who use this tail end of Sam's original post do like to be constructive and mutually supportive.

"im posting this question here because it is a nice safe polite corner and i thought imight get some valuable responses-"

"that raises an interesting question for me-
in evolution do we assume that homo sapiens are at the top of the heirachy?"

I can only speak for myself and say that I do not regard homo sapiens as being at the top of a heirachy. It is clear that we are the dominant species on this planet but this does not absolve us from the duty to treat all other life forms with respect. And, when it comes to speculation about intelligent life forms on other planets, I don't think we have a clue at this juncture.

I do not like it at all when the God of Genesis says to Adam and Eve: "be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish od =f the sea and over the birds of the air . . . .". I think that the world is already overpopulated with respect to humans and I think the way we despoil the earth with hideous deep sea trawling etc is an utter disgrace for supposedly intelligent creatures.

"if we go from a purely logical standpoint we are ill-suited to our environment- must construct all sorts of resource depleting and earth destoying
contrivances just to survive- like george carlin says-maybe god created us because he wanted plastic-"

What can I say other than bang on. You are 100% correct.

"as stated animals act with compassion and self sacrifice to care for each other- What is the superiority of man as a species over others?"

Our supposed superiority is grossly over-rated. Albert Schweitzer suggested an ethic of "reverence for life" and I think we ought to have reverence for all of creation.

"im just wondering from what i imagine is an atheist viewpoint-
without a soul and a connection to god- what makes humans better than dolphins which live in complete harmony with the planet?"

Up the dolphins is what I say.

"do atheists believe in a soul?
what is the function of a soul without god?
just wondering
peace"

I think Victoria that most atheists/agnostics are averse to thinking in terms of a dualistic soul in a body but that does not mean we have no souls in a figurative sense.

"January 2, 2007 4:55 AM"

You are up early in the morning!

"also my husband pointed out to me that from an atheist perspective- since there is no way to "prove" consciousness in any way (i mean anima- not electrical activity)
that if taken in a purely material perspective- since every cell in our body is renewed every 7 years- in an atheistically run society- one would have to be released from prison after 7 years because they would be a new physical being."

Fascinating musings on the part of your husband. It is a topic which exercises the minds of agnostics/atheists a great deal. Clearly, despite the turnover of the actual atoms in our bodies we do retain memories of our childhood going back many years -- including, in my case, a vivid memory of a childhood mystical experience at the age of 5 or 6. This is not a proof of a separate soul since the memories concerned must still be stored in our brains. I imagine our brains -- to some extent, back themselves up in our sleep and throughout the day as well -- much like back-up memory in a computer.

"now if believers are not allowed to present faith in an esoteric non material form without "proving" its existence- it seems that they would hold themselves to the same standards they demand of others."

Yes indeed. No matter what our beliefs or absence thereof we can never expect more from others than we are prepared to offer ourselves.

"i thought i might get some intelligent answers here- i posted it on the other sam harris question and all i got was because we have big brain we can run the ecosystem and build machines which was insufficient proof of the superiority of man to me."

It is quieter in this largely neglected corner of the discussions and many of us got driven away from other more active discussions because of boorish and crude behaviour.

Stay well, . . Ted . .