All Comments (83)

sally quinn's appearance on MORNING JOE, 3,13,08
was pompous and prissy.

her comparing mrs spitzer to a burka clad woman was unconscionable and an artocious thing for a woman to say about another woman.

sally, a woman who lived with a married man before marrying him should walk a mile in mrs spitzer's shoes

sally quinn's appearance on MORNING JOE, 3,13,08
was pompous and prissy.

her comparing mrs spitzer to a burka clad woman was unconscionable and an artocious thing for a woman to say about another woman.

sally, a woman who lived with a married man before marrying him should walk a mile in mrs spitzer's shoes

sally quinn's appearance on MORNING JOE, 3,13,08
was pompous and prissy.

her comparing mrs spitzer to a burka clad woman was unconscionable and an artocious thing for a woman to say about another woman.

sally, a woman who lived with a married man before marrying him should walk a mile in mrs spitzer's shoes

Unfortunately I did not hear Mr. Romney's speech, but since when did he lose the right to express his beliefs without being called Un-American? For one to have the audacity to mention the name of Osama Bin Laden here is within their freedom of expression, but as such lacks understanding of conflicting beliefs; further derogatory comments tend to irritate some readers and believers. I think it's only Un-American NOT TO STAND and affirm what you believe in vice standing just to disavow other beliefs. Who said: "You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free?" Look at our Declaration of Independence: The 56 signers were all believers in God; secularists accepted it's non-denominational nature and traditional religionists accepted it's recognition of God as the source of the rights enumerated within the document. Since by your comments it's seemingly not understood that WE are all children of God, there may also be difficulty in your understanding: "WE hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator..." Mr. Romney correctly identifies with a growing concern for losing a heritage of moral and religious values, ideals, and beliefs as separatists have gone too far in removal of reference to God in textbooks, prayer in public schools, and ten commandments in courtrooms, etc. I am not a Mormon but am a sincere Protestant Christian and believes:"..that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of GOD..." The question of "which God" floors me - there is only one GOD; does ignorance of the Ten Commandments arise here? #1: "YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME"; no wonder why our nation is in such moral decay.

In Romney's text, you find the entire quote from John Adams: "In John Adams' words: We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our constitution [he said] was made for a moral and religious people. Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom. Freedom opens the windows of the soul so that man can discover his most profound beliefs and commune with God. Freedom and religion endure together, or perish alone."

Did you notice the words that came from John Adams' own lips: "Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom."

Sally was coming down heavy handed when she thought these were Mitt Romney's words. Is she also down on the words of our founding fathers as well?

Is it better to offend God or to offend a few million of your fellow countrymen and women. If'n I was Romney, I'd, as a professing Christian, prefer to offend my fellow countrymen that to offend God.

Good for you, Sally. The erosion of Separation is one of the real dangers facing us in this country. More generally, the basic problem we see is that "religion as we know it" is "mythic religion," i.e. religion based on myth, or story. It belongs to a distinct level of consciousness, the "blue" level in the Spiral Dynamics map of consciousness levels. Belief structures at this level tend to be absolutistic and do not recognize the evolutionary nature of our quest for spiritual understanding. What is needed is to rise above that level to an integral apprehension of all of reality, and evolve to a deeper understanding and participation in all of reality. One therefore goes beyond belief, beyond doctrine and dogma, but it requires a different framing and a different cognitive landscape than the various ones we all have been drenched in. (Here, the most common one is, of course the various versions of Christianity.) The best theoretician/mapmaker in this field is the philosopher Ken Wilber. His work can be a useful tool in moving beyond the appalling state we are in here, one which makes the Europeans, especially, look at us with consternation.

I do hope my post won't be too long for the 'window' that faces me - the window that 'allows' me to post a comment. Why do I ask/say that?

On 12/12/07 (a date that is important in my personal history) I remembered it was the day my father returned from WWII. It was the day of my dearest grand-father's birthday (he'd be 103 years of age were he alive). It was the day I'd assessed the growth of the B of A since Gianinni (spelling?) had put the $2,000,000 into a cart; salvaged this money to lend to victims of the San Francisco earth-quake, and dividing the total growth of this particular bank by the number of years it had operated, the growth on the computer showed me: 21, 121,212 times = I saw the numbers of 12, and 2 and 1 dominated that calculation!

What did this mean to me? My essay to 'self' years ago as I tried to figure out the meaning of: "Be still and know that I am God". I'd been a 'believer' - devoted. I saw too much blood-shed; hate, and turmoil, so I 'turned to another thought and concept". I saw a 'mirror-image of 'self'. At that point, I concluded: "Mirror-image = divide by 2"; from two sides to every story to anything that faces me in the way of 'choice'. Two-party system; the fork in the road, etc.

Most recent revelation? Hearing Sally Quinn for the FIRST TIME (yes, I don't watch t.v. often); on 12/12/07. Could it have been a more wonderful day for me? I'd reacted to the Republican debates; Ed Morrisey seemed to 'reflfect' my sentiments virtually 100%, so I felt 'okay'. Go forward in time; see Tavis Smiley = Sally Quinn ended my day on the highest note; 12/12/07!

Why was it my highest note? I felt so 'alone' in my 'individual self' - born at a time when most dad's were at war. Going to church - believing with my WHOLE HEART in the Christian concept. After singing in church; playing the organ in church - teaching Sunday School, and being known for my good Christian 'ways', I had to depart around the age of 37 years old. I departed because I could NOT 'be still' and know that 'I am NOT god". I realized (within my own thoughts and through my own reaching out for prayers and answers), that:

Be still and know that I am God is a total of eight words. With the mirror-image that I believe could be described as 'physical self' and 'spiritual self', I divided (years ago), this statement (English translation of course) by the number two. When you divide this by two, you get the statement: "Be still and know". If you read that as a full sentence, the POWER is even GREATER (to me) in that virtual 'command'. Okay, I said (as I did the same when I calculated today the financial growth of the B of A), DIVIDE AND CONQUER = Divide and you get: Be still! Here again, we have a powerful sentence (in the English language).

Once I did this numerical exercise (back in 1989), I ended up writing 'prose' that was titled: "Even One Shall be Called a Gathering". How did I arrive at that number 'One'? I divided the statement: "Be Still" by (2) and got: BE!!! This prompted me to realizing the power of the word: BE! Lest it seems that the word 'still' bears no power, I did not ignore this word, but to create my own prose, I disregarded it for the moment.

Granted: One can play with words - in any language; numbers seem to be more accurate. Nevertheless I was having quite a good time 'playing' with the power of the ENGLISH language way back nearly 20 years ago; again, feeling like the lonely individual who simply could NOT agree with ANY religion 100%.

So, when I couldn't agree with any religion 100%, I concluded that ALL religions must have a reward - their existance represented a concensus; a following, and in that, should be the honor and respect one should give when the multitude try their level-best, to describe what is within their souls and hearts. Once I got past that effort on my part, then ALL religions were 'equal' (in my mind); yet, all religions were merely nothing more than attempts to define something that can't be proven by 'man', nor ultimately 'defined' by anyone who tries to use words to describe what 'is' as it pertains to 'life' on a small planet; 'life' as we know it, and what might seem to be 'life' to us, could very well be nothing more than a 'disease' if viewed by others who could exist in a different form than we can know or imagine.

For me it was a 'numerical' experience; a 24-hour revelation, and a complete JOY to hear Sally Quinn speak; articulate, and be so 'calm' as she offered some of her thoughts to Tavis Smiley. Sally referred to the experiences and time-lines in her life, that caused her to make the statement: "I just might be Christian" (as I recall her words). I laughed. I remembered the book I'd read about 35 years ago titled: FUNNY, YOU DON'T LOOK CHRISTIAN. What a wonderful book - slim; small in the hand, but filled with cameo-like stories of individuals who'd been kind, charitable, and seemingly always walking through life in a type of 'light' that made them exceptional in their love and awareness of the human-condition and needs of their neighbors; friends, and those strangers who might cross their paths throughout their lives.

I never see a stranger; only a friend. I never see another in the form of 'color' - only a person who has the same physical make-up as I do. I've never seen anything that tells me one individual is more unique or special than another. What I have seen is THE SPIRIT that propells a certain individual - DRIVES AND INSPIRES that individual to do things others might not attempt!

Yes, I also wrote some years ago another piece of prose called: IN THE SPIRIT OF SELF, and again, it was for myself - for friends, and family who know 'me'. I think this formulae of 'knowing' translates simply into the fact that we all 'know' friends; family, and have a small circle that can over-lap into another's 'circle'. We become 'linked' in these circles; we 'blend' - we act as a community; a state, a nation, and hopefully (one day) as an entire planet! I'm almost grateful for the 'Climate Control' and 'warming' problem that has brought nations to meet and discuss what must be done to PROTECT THIS PLANET!

If climate (good old mother nature as I'd call it) is going to be 'out of control', and if this can create a platform for NATIONS TO COME TOGETHER WITH A COMMON CAUSE, then I'm 'all for it'....bring it on, because we might have the beginning of 'peace'. Once we talk about saving the planet; once we discuss the well-being of the WORLD, it seems to me a possibility we can take this discussion 'further', and sort out the rest of the problems; threats, and realize we must think about each and every human being as vital part of this world, and eliminate 'killing' in the name of some 'God'; in the name of some type of 'government', an economic approach that might be labeled 'capitalism' or 'communism'.

I'm ending this with: Notice the letter "C" as it appears in so many words that currently are high-lighted in our minds an lives? Give the numeric value to the letter "C" = 3. Climate Control Conference = 333. Problem areas such as cancer, credit, capitalism, communism = all "C". For fun: Place Climate Control Cancer over the words Credit Capitalism, Communism and add only the C's = 666 (hello book of Revelation in the Christian version/King James version of the BIBLE)! Whoops - Christian starts with a "C", but to me, Jesus's guidelines were so close to what we (now) label as 'communism', I'll simply incorporate Christianity into communism and be done with that.

I do think most Christians would be appalled to have someone refer to their religion as 'communism' in the truest form; however, when one talks of 'common good' - 'community effort', and wants 'equal rights and opportunity', when you look at the definition of these words and concepts, you'll see it borders upon the very ideals of the economics of communism.

Communism is NOT a 'type of government or threat', it is an economic concept; an outline that has guidelines for success just as capitalism has it's own identify as to 'how to succeed in business without really trying'. Yes, I do think that book's title said MORE than the book itself if one gives deeper thought.

I guess I must have used up the space for 7 other individuals who might need to 'post' now; sorry for being such a blabber-mouth, but when one lives over 65 years with their own thoughts, and not until 24 hours ago (or less), did I hear the words of Sally Quinn and realize I was not 'alone' in my reactions to religion; seeing all of these people on the message board who also had their thoughts, I figured: "If there is a God, praise him for the inter-net!"

I do hope my post won't be too long for the 'window' that faces me - the window that 'allows' me to post a comment. Why do I ask/say that?

On 12/12/07 (a date that is important in my personal history) I remembered it was the day my father returned from WWII. It was the day of my dearest grand-father's birthday (he'd be 103 years of age were he alive). It was the day I'd assessed the growth of the B of A since Gianinni (spelling?) had put the $2,000,000 into a cart; salvaged this money to lend to victims of the San Francisco earth-quake, and dividing the total growth of this particular bank by the number of years it had operated, the growth on the computer showed me: 21, 121,212 times = I saw the numbers of 12, and 2 and 1 dominated that calculation!

What did this mean to me? My essay to 'self' years ago as I tried to figure out the meaning of: "Be still and know that I am God". I'd been a 'believer' - devoted. I saw too much blood-shed; hate, and turmoil, so I 'turned to another thought and concept". I saw a 'mirror-image of 'self'. At that point, I concluded: "Mirror-image = divide by 2"; from two sides to every story to anything that faces me in the way of 'choice'. Two-party system; the fork in the road, etc.

Most recent revelation? Hearing Sally Quinn for the FIRST TIME (yes, I don't watch t.v. often); on 12/12/07. Could it have been a more wonderful day for me? I'd reacted to the Republican debates; Ed Morrisey seemed to 'reflfect' my sentiments virtually 100%, so I felt 'okay'. Go forward in time; see Tavis Smiley = Sally Quinn ended my day on the highest note; 12/12/07!

Why was it my highest note? I felt so 'alone' in my 'individual self' - born at a time when most dad's were at war. Going to church - believing with my WHOLE HEART in the Christian concept. After singing in church; playing the organ in church - teaching Sunday School, and being known for my good Christian 'ways', I had to depart around the age of 37 years old. I departed because I could NOT 'be still' and know that 'I am NOT god". I realized (within my own thoughts and through my own reaching out for prayers and answers), that:

Be still and know that I am God is a total of eight words. With the mirror-image that I believe could be described as 'physical self' and 'spiritual self', I divided (years ago), this statement (English translation of course) by the number two. When you divide this by two, you get the statement: "Be still and know". If you read that as a full sentence, the POWER is even GREATER (to me) in that virtual 'command'. Okay, I said (as I did the same when I calculated today the financial growth of the B of A), DIVIDE AND CONQUER = Divide and you get: Be still! Here again, we have a powerful sentence (in the English language).

Once I did this numerical exercise (back in 1989), I ended up writing 'prose' that was titled: "Even One Shall be Called a Gathering". How did I arrive at that number 'One'? I divided the statement: "Be Still" by (2) and got: BE!!! This prompted me to realizing the power of the word: BE! Lest it seems that the word 'still' bears no power, I did not ignore this word, but to create my own prose, I disregarded it for the moment.

Granted: One can play with words - in any language; numbers seem to be more accurate. Nevertheless I was having quite a good time 'playing' with the power of the ENGLISH language way back nearly 20 years ago; again, feeling like the lonely individual who simply could NOT agree with ANY religion 100%.

So, when I couldn't agree with any religion 100%, I concluded that ALL religions must have a reward - their existance represented a concensus; a following, and in that, should be the honor and respect one should give when the multitude try their level-best, to describe what is within their souls and hearts. Once I got past that effort on my part, then ALL religions were 'equal' (in my mind); yet, all religions were merely nothing more than attempts to define something that can't be proven by 'man', nor ultimately 'defined' by anyone who tries to use words to describe what 'is' as it pertains to 'life' on a small planet; 'life' as we know it, and what might seem to be 'life' to us, could very well be nothing more than a 'disease' if viewed by others who could exist in a different form than we can know or imagine.

For me it was a 'numerical' experience; a 24-hour revelation, and a complete JOY to hear Sally Quinn speak; articulate, and be so 'calm' as she offered some of her thoughts to Tavis Smiley. Sally referred to the experiences and time-lines in her life, that caused her to make the statement: "I just might be Christian" (as I recall her words). I laughed. I remembered the book I'd read about 35 years ago titled: FUNNY, YOU DON'T LOOK CHRISTIAN. What a wonderful book - slim; small in the hand, but filled with cameo-like stories of individuals who'd been kind, charitable, and seemingly always walking through life in a type of 'light' that made them exceptional in their love and awareness of the human-condition and needs of their neighbors; friends, and those strangers who might cross their paths throughout their lives.

I never see a stranger; only a friend. I never see another in the form of 'color' - only a person who has the same physical make-up as I do. I've never seen anything that tells me one individual is more unique or special than another. What I have seen is THE SPIRIT that propells a certain individual - DRIVES AND INSPIRES that individual to do things others might not attempt!

Yes, I also wrote some years ago another piece of prose called: IN THE SPIRIT OF SELF, and again, it was for myself - for friends, and family who know 'me'. I think this formulae of 'knowing' translates simply into the fact that we all 'know' friends; family, and have a small circle that can over-lap into another's 'circle'. We become 'linked' in these circles; we 'blend' - we act as a community; a state, a nation, and hopefully (one day) as an entire planet! I'm almost grateful for the 'Climate Control' and 'warming' problem that has brought nations to meet and discuss what must be done to PROTECT THIS PLANET!

If climate (good old mother nature as I'd call it) is going to be 'out of control', and if this can create a platform for NATIONS TO COME TOGETHER WITH A COMMON CAUSE, then I'm 'all for it'....bring it on, because we might have the beginning of 'peace'. Once we talk about saving the planet; once we discuss the well-being of the WORLD, it seems to me a possibility we can take this discussion 'further', and sort out the rest of the problems; threats, and realize we must think about each and every human being as vital part of this world, and eliminate 'killing' in the name of some 'God'; in the name of some type of 'government', an economic approach that might be labeled 'capitalism' or 'communism'.

I'm ending this with: Notice the letter "C" as it appears in so many words that currently are high-lighted in our minds an lives? Give the numeric value to the letter "C" = 3. Climate Control Conference = 333. Problem areas such as cancer, credit, capitalism, communism = all "C". For fun: Place Climate Control Cancer over the words Credit Capitalism, Communism and add only the C's = 666 (hello book of Revelation in the Christian version/King James version of the BIBLE)! Whoops - Christian starts with a "C", but to me, Jesus's guidelines were so close to what we (now) label as 'communism', I'll simply incorporate Christianity into communism and be done with that.

I do think most Christians would be appalled to have someone refer to their religion as 'communism' in the truest form; however, when one talks of 'common good' - 'community effort', and wants 'equal rights and opportunity', when you look at the definition of these words and concepts, you'll see it borders upon the very ideals of the economics of communism.

Communism is NOT a 'type of government or threat', it is an economic concept; an outline that has guidelines for success just as capitalism has it's own identify as to 'how to succeed in business without really trying'. Yes, I do think that book's title said MORE than the book itself if one gives deeper thought.

I guess I must have used up the space for 7 other individuals who might need to 'post' now; sorry for being such a blabber-mouth, but when one lives over 65 years with their own thoughts, and not until 24 hours ago (or less), did I hear the words of Sally Quinn and realize I was not 'alone' in my reactions to religion; seeing all of these people on the message board who also had their thoughts, I figured: "If there is a God, praise him for the inter-net!"

I do hope my post won't be too long for the 'window' that faces me - the window that 'allows' me to post a comment. Why do I ask/say that?

On 12/12/07 (a date that is important in my personal history) I remembered it was the day my father returned from WWII. It was the day of my dearest grand-father's birthday (he'd be 103 years of age were he alive). It was the day I'd assessed the growth of the B of A since Gianinni (spelling?) had put the $2,000,000 into a cart; salvaged this money to lend to victims of the San Francisco earth-quake, and dividing the total growth of this particular bank by the number of years it had operated, the growth on the computer showed me: 21, 121,212 times = I saw the numbers of 12, and 2 and 1 dominated that calculation!

What did this mean to me? My essay to 'self' years ago as I tried to figure out the meaning of: "Be still and know that I am God". I'd been a 'believer' - devoted. I saw too much blood-shed; hate, and turmoil, so I 'turned to another thought and concept". I saw a 'mirror-image of 'self'. At that point, I concluded: "Mirror-image = divide by 2"; from two sides to every story to anything that faces me in the way of 'choice'. Two-party system; the fork in the road, etc.

Most recent revelation? Hearing Sally Quinn for the FIRST TIME (yes, I don't watch t.v. often); on 12/12/07. Could it have been a more wonderful day for me? I'd reacted to the Republican debates; Ed Morrisey seemed to 'reflfect' my sentiments virtually 100%, so I felt 'okay'. Go forward in time; see Tavis Smiley = Sally Quinn ended my day on the highest note; 12/12/07!

Why was it my highest note? I felt so 'alone' in my 'individual self' - born at a time when most dad's were at war. Going to church - believing with my WHOLE HEART in the Christian concept. After singing in church; playing the organ in church - teaching Sunday School, and being known for my good Christian 'ways', I had to depart around the age of 37 years old. I departed because I could NOT 'be still' and know that 'I am NOT god". I realized (within my own thoughts and through my own reaching out for prayers and answers), that:

Be still and know that I am God is a total of eight words. With the mirror-image that I believe could be described as 'physical self' and 'spiritual self', I divided (years ago), this statement (English translation of course) by the number two. When you divide this by two, you get the statement: "Be still and know". If you read that as a full sentence, the POWER is even GREATER (to me) in that virtual 'command'. Okay, I said (as I did the same when I calculated today the financial growth of the B of A), DIVIDE AND CONQUER = Divide and you get: Be still! Here again, we have a powerful sentence (in the English language).

Once I did this numerical exercise (back in 1989), I ended up writing 'prose' that was titled: "Even One Shall be Called a Gathering". How did I arrive at that number 'One'? I divided the statement: "Be Still" by (2) and got: BE!!! This prompted me to realizing the power of the word: BE! Lest it seems that the word 'still' bears no power, I did not ignore this word, but to create my own prose, I disregarded it for the moment.

Granted: One can play with words - in any language; numbers seem to be more accurate. Nevertheless I was having quite a good time 'playing' with the power of the ENGLISH language way back nearly 20 years ago; again, feeling like the lonely individual who simply could NOT agree with ANY religion 100%.

So, when I couldn't agree with any religion 100%, I concluded that ALL religions must have a reward - their existance represented a concensus; a following, and in that, should be the honor and respect one should give when the multitude try their level-best, to describe what is within their souls and hearts. Once I got past that effort on my part, then ALL religions were 'equal' (in my mind); yet, all religions were merely nothing more than attempts to define something that can't be proven by 'man', nor ultimately 'defined' by anyone who tries to use words to describe what 'is' as it pertains to 'life' on a small planet; 'life' as we know it, and what might seem to be 'life' to us, could very well be nothing more than a 'disease' if viewed by others who could exist in a different form than we can know or imagine.

For me it was a 'numerical' experience; a 24-hour revelation, and a complete JOY to hear Sally Quinn speak; articulate, and be so 'calm' as she offered some of her thoughts to Tavis Smiley. Sally referred to the experiences and time-lines in her life, that caused her to make the statement: "I just might be Christian" (as I recall her words). I laughed. I remembered the book I'd read about 35 years ago titled: FUNNY, YOU DON'T LOOK CHRISTIAN. What a wonderful book - slim; small in the hand, but filled with cameo-like stories of individuals who'd been kind, charitable, and seemingly always walking through life in a type of 'light' that made them exceptional in their love and awareness of the human-condition and needs of their neighbors; friends, and those strangers who might cross their paths throughout their lives.

I never see a stranger; only a friend. I never see another in the form of 'color' - only a person who has the same physical make-up as I do. I've never seen anything that tells me one individual is more unique or special than another. What I have seen is THE SPIRIT that propells a certain individual - DRIVES AND INSPIRES that individual to do things others might not attempt!

Yes, I also wrote some years ago another piece of prose called: IN THE SPIRIT OF SELF, and again, it was for myself - for friends, and family who know 'me'. I think this formulae of 'knowing' translates simply into the fact that we all 'know' friends; family, and have a small circle that can over-lap into another's 'circle'. We become 'linked' in these circles; we 'blend' - we act as a community; a state, a nation, and hopefully (one day) as an entire planet! I'm almost grateful for the 'Climate Control' and 'warming' problem that has brought nations to meet and discuss what must be done to PROTECT THIS PLANET!

If climate (good old mother nature as I'd call it) is going to be 'out of control', and if this can create a platform for NATIONS TO COME TOGETHER WITH A COMMON CAUSE, then I'm 'all for it'....bring it on, because we might have the beginning of 'peace'. Once we talk about saving the planet; once we discuss the well-being of the WORLD, it seems to me a possibility we can take this discussion 'further', and sort out the rest of the problems; threats, and realize we must think about each and every human being as vital part of this world, and eliminate 'killing' in the name of some 'God'; in the name of some type of 'government', an economic approach that might be labeled 'capitalism' or 'communism'.

I'm ending this with: Notice the letter "C" as it appears in so many words that currently are high-lighted in our minds an lives? Give the numeric value to the letter "C" = 3. Climate Control Conference = 333. Problem areas such as cancer, credit, capitalism, communism = all "C". For fun: Place Climate Control Cancer over the words Credit Capitalism, Communism and add only the C's = 666 (hello book of Revelation in the Christian version/King James version of the BIBLE)! Whoops - Christian starts with a "C", but to me, Jesus's guidelines were so close to what we (now) label as 'communism', I'll simply incorporate Christianity into communism and be done with that.

I do think most Christians would be appalled to have someone refer to their religion as 'communism' in the truest form; however, when one talks of 'common good' - 'community effort', and wants 'equal rights and opportunity', when you look at the definition of these words and concepts, you'll see it borders upon the very ideals of the economics of communism.

Communism is NOT a 'type of government or threat', it is an economic concept; an outline that has guidelines for success just as capitalism has it's own identify as to 'how to succeed in business without really trying'. Yes, I do think that book's title said MORE than the book itself if one gives deeper thought.

I guess I must have used up the space for 7 other individuals who might need to 'post' now; sorry for being such a blabber-mouth, but when one lives over 65 years with their own thoughts, and not until 24 hours ago (or less), did I hear the words of Sally Quinn and realize I was not 'alone' in my reactions to religion; seeing all of these people on the message board who also had their thoughts, I figured: "If there is a God, praise him for the inter-net!"

I do hope my post won't be too long for the 'window' that faces me - the window that 'allows' me to post a comment. Why do I ask/say that?

On 12/12/07 (a date that is important in my personal history) I remembered it was the day my father returned from WWII. It was the day of my dearest grand-father's birthday (he'd be 103 years of age were he alive). It was the day I'd assessed the growth of the B of A since Gianinni (spelling?) had put the $2,000,000 into a cart; salvaged this money to lend to victims of the San Francisco earth-quake, and dividing the total growth of this particular bank by the number of years it had operated, the growth on the computer showed me: 21, 121,212 times = I saw the numbers of 12, and 2 and 1 dominated that calculation!

What did this mean to me? My essay to 'self' years ago as I tried to figure out the meaning of: "Be still and know that I am God". I'd been a 'believer' - devoted. I saw too much blood-shed; hate, and turmoil, so I 'turned to another thought and concept". I saw a 'mirror-image of 'self'. At that point, I concluded: "Mirror-image = divide by 2"; from two sides to every story to anything that faces me in the way of 'choice'. Two-party system; the fork in the road, etc.

Most recent revelation? Hearing Sally Quinn for the FIRST TIME (yes, I don't watch t.v. often); on 12/12/07. Could it have been a more wonderful day for me? I'd reacted to the Republican debates; Ed Morrisey seemed to 'reflfect' my sentiments virtually 100%, so I felt 'okay'. Go forward in time; see Tavis Smiley = Sally Quinn ended my day on the highest note; 12/12/07!

Why was it my highest note? I felt so 'alone' in my 'individual self' - born at a time when most dad's were at war. Going to church - believing with my WHOLE HEART in the Christian concept. After singing in church; playing the organ in church - teaching Sunday School, and being known for my good Christian 'ways', I had to depart around the age of 37 years old. I departed because I could NOT 'be still' and know that 'I am NOT god". I realized (within my own thoughts and through my own reaching out for prayers and answers), that:

Be still and know that I am God is a total of eight words. With the mirror-image that I believe could be described as 'physical self' and 'spiritual self', I divided (years ago), this statement (English translation of course) by the number two. When you divide this by two, you get the statement: "Be still and know". If you read that as a full sentence, the POWER is even GREATER (to me) in that virtual 'command'. Okay, I said (as I did the same when I calculated today the financial growth of the B of A), DIVIDE AND CONQUER = Divide and you get: Be still! Here again, we have a powerful sentence (in the English language).

Once I did this numerical exercise (back in 1989), I ended up writing 'prose' that was titled: "Even One Shall be Called a Gathering". How did I arrive at that number 'One'? I divided the statement: "Be Still" by (2) and got: BE!!! This prompted me to realizing the power of the word: BE! Lest it seems that the word 'still' bears no power, I did not ignore this word, but to create my own prose, I disregarded it for the moment.

Granted: One can play with words - in any language; numbers seem to be more accurate. Nevertheless I was having quite a good time 'playing' with the power of the ENGLISH language way back nearly 20 years ago; again, feeling like the lonely individual who simply could NOT agree with ANY religion 100%.

So, when I couldn't agree with any religion 100%, I concluded that ALL religions must have a reward - their existance represented a concensus; a following, and in that, should be the honor and respect one should give when the multitude try their level-best, to describe what is within their souls and hearts. Once I got past that effort on my part, then ALL religions were 'equal' (in my mind); yet, all religions were merely nothing more than attempts to define something that can't be proven by 'man', nor ultimately 'defined' by anyone who tries to use words to describe what 'is' as it pertains to 'life' on a small planet; 'life' as we know it, and what might seem to be 'life' to us, could very well be nothing more than a 'disease' if viewed by others who could exist in a different form than we can know or imagine.

For me it was a 'numerical' experience; a 24-hour revelation, and a complete JOY to hear Sally Quinn speak; articulate, and be so 'calm' as she offered some of her thoughts to Tavis Smiley. Sally referred to the experiences and time-lines in her life, that caused her to make the statement: "I just might be Christian" (as I recall her words). I laughed. I remembered the book I'd read about 35 years ago titled: FUNNY, YOU DON'T LOOK CHRISTIAN. What a wonderful book - slim; small in the hand, but filled with cameo-like stories of individuals who'd been kind, charitable, and seemingly always walking through life in a type of 'light' that made them exceptional in their love and awareness of the human-condition and needs of their neighbors; friends, and those strangers who might cross their paths throughout their lives.

I never see a stranger; only a friend. I never see another in the form of 'color' - only a person who has the same physical make-up as I do. I've never seen anything that tells me one individual is more unique or special than another. What I have seen is THE SPIRIT that propells a certain individual - DRIVES AND INSPIRES that individual to do things others might not attempt!

Yes, I also wrote some years ago another piece of prose called: IN THE SPIRIT OF SELF, and again, it was for myself - for friends, and family who know 'me'. I think this formulae of 'knowing' translates simply into the fact that we all 'know' friends; family, and have a small circle that can over-lap into another's 'circle'. We become 'linked' in these circles; we 'blend' - we act as a community; a state, a nation, and hopefully (one day) as an entire planet! I'm almost grateful for the 'Climate Control' and 'warming' problem that has brought nations to meet and discuss what must be done to PROTECT THIS PLANET!

If climate (good old mother nature as I'd call it) is going to be 'out of control', and if this can create a platform for NATIONS TO COME TOGETHER WITH A COMMON CAUSE, then I'm 'all for it'....bring it on, because we might have the beginning of 'peace'. Once we talk about saving the planet; once we discuss the well-being of the WORLD, it seems to me a possibility we can take this discussion 'further', and sort out the rest of the problems; threats, and realize we must think about each and every human being as vital part of this world, and eliminate 'killing' in the name of some 'God'; in the name of some type of 'government', an economic approach that might be labeled 'capitalism' or 'communism'.

I'm ending this with: Notice the letter "C" as it appears in so many words that currently are high-lighted in our minds an lives? Give the numeric value to the letter "C" = 3. Climate Control Conference = 333. Problem areas such as cancer, credit, capitalism, communism = all "C". For fun: Place Climate Control Cancer over the words Credit Capitalism, Communism and add only the C's = 666 (hello book of Revelation in the Christian version/King James version of the BIBLE)! Whoops - Christian starts with a "C", but to me, Jesus's guidelines were so close to what we (now) label as 'communism', I'll simply incorporate Christianity into communism and be done with that.

I do think most Christians would be appalled to have someone refer to their religion as 'communism' in the truest form; however, when one talks of 'common good' - 'community effort', and wants 'equal rights and opportunity', when you look at the definition of these words and concepts, you'll see it borders upon the very ideals of the economics of communism.

Communism is NOT a 'type of government or threat', it is an economic concept; an outline that has guidelines for success just as capitalism has it's own identify as to 'how to succeed in business without really trying'. Yes, I do think that book's title said MORE than the book itself if one gives deeper thought.

I guess I must have used up the space for 7 other individuals who might need to 'post' now; sorry for being such a blabber-mouth, but when one lives over 65 years with their own thoughts, and not until 24 hours ago (or less), did I hear the words of Sally Quinn and realize I was not 'alone' in my reactions to religion; seeing all of these people on the message board who also had their thoughts, I figured: "If there is a God, praise him for the inter-net!"

The Prayer of St. Francis was apparently not written by St. Francis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_of_Saint_Francis

But it fits his demeanor assuming his biographers did not do the normal "saintly" embellishment for the normal added monetary gain of trinket and indulgence sales.

"Maybe that is what angers so many...knowing that it was those who worship many Gods that they are standing on...without Alchemy there would be no Geonme Project...without the original named 7 planets we would not have gotten to the Moon...or be able to fly between Maine and San Fran. Maybe it is that we endanger their beliefs and so they fear us? All I know is that we are a moral people, who have been discriminated against up to the Oval office...and I, for one, am tired of waiting for the public to grow up. I am protected by the Bill of Rights as far as being able to fight governmental discrimination...but when will the idiots on main street wise up?"

All good points. Just had a discussion with a guy that thought Newton's alchemy called into question his work in theology, and physics. Your point about the genome project resting on alchemy is flat right.

I really can't blame you for being angry, given the abuse you have faced. Sad to say that I have no magic cure. Keep communicating with people, and some will learn. Slow, that is, I know, but in the end you will win.

Peace,

Mod

Dear Terra,

So much to what you said in the last post, all around that I can't pick a single quote to respond to.

None the less I am outraged that people have killed your pets and attacked you over your peaceful exercise of your religion. When one of us is harmed in this way, all of us are harmed.

I am sure there are some who swim in the shallow end of Wicca, just as there are in the shallow end of Christianity.

I am not sure I get the Rede in any full way. The earlier comparison to the Golden Rule in all its variations doesn't quite seem to be full enough. Am I wrong on that? Any good books to read on it?

I do believe that the work being done by people like Starhawk will help over time. Teaching people about the piousness and deep connection to the sacred in you faith must help people understand, eventually.

The Prayer of St. Francis says:

where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
and where there is sadness, joy.

I feel sure that he would not mind if we were add:

where there is fear, knowledge;

All the best,

Mod

The Jihadist should get some "fire in her belly" and start the cleanup of her "death to the infidel" religion.

E Favorite,

I have this notion and vision of Ms. Sally Quinn as a somewhat sensitive, soulful eyed society matron and Washington insider from looking at her photo here and reading her previous essays in On Faith. And voila! Her punchy and spot on essay re Mitt Romney's speech. There's fire in the belly of that lady. Who would have thought it! I'm impressed.

Regards

"J"

Sorry for all the repeats

Jihadist -- I'm surprised you're surprised at Sally's point of view on Rommney -- and there are many other points of view presented here on "On Faith"

Dean Waldt - everyone is welcome here and all come here voluntarily. They can also leave whenever they want, or stay on.

Lisa - could you give some example of atheists who are angry and strident? and describe what about their behavior was angry and strident?

I wonder if you're talking about "celebrity" atheists, who are seen on talk shows, or do you mean atheists you know personally? I've always been an optimistic person with a good sense of humor. None of that has changes since I became an atheist.

You say, "the so-called free-thinkers would do a better job of promoting the message of a God-free existence if they could learn to be less angry, less offended and less convinced of their own virtuousness?"

Could you give some specific guidance on how to do this? I can't guarantee that I will follow it, but truthfully, I don't know where to start without more specific guidelines.

Also, I'm not so sure I agree with the suggestion to be "less convinced of their own virtuousness."

How is it a bad thing to think that your actions are virtuous? Don't you try to be virtuous? Do you think religious believers would be better off if they were less convinced of their virtuousness?

I look forward to hearing back from you.

Lisa,
You only hear those "angry atheists", because
of the nature of atheism.

IT'S NOT A RELIGION and there are (hardly) any organized atheists out there.

They only seem angry because you don't hear from any of them until they are provoked.

I like the quote:

Atheism is a religion like
not collecting stamps is a hobby.

So, if they would just get their damn stamps out of my face, please.....

Lisa,
You only hear those "angry atheists", because
of the nature of atheism.

IT'S NOT A RELIGION and there are (hardly) any organized atheists out there.

They only seem angry because you don't hear from any of them until they are provoked.

I like the quote:

Atheism is a religion like
not collecting stamps is a hobby.

So, if they would just get their damn stamps out of my face, please.....

Moderate,
There is nothing for you to be sorry about really. It was not you or all Christians that do these things..but it are those who read the bible and read it literally, without careing what the Bill of Rights say.

For some, how they translate their particular sacred text is how they translate the Constitution.

Listen there are those who call themselves Wiccan that can be as flaky as any other person in any other religion. They get a surface understanding of the laws and teachings and think they have it all. They read the Rede and think all they need to do is not hurt anyone and they can do what they want...that is not how it works. There are Christians that have never read the bible..or have read it enough to be able to have back up for their particular bias.

There is much to learn from the antiquity of Pagan religions and philosophy. All we in the modern world have or think was built on them; from mathmatics and healing to knowing how the universe works, it all began with the Pagan Scholar.

Maybe that is what angers so many...knowing that it was those who worship many Gods that they are standing on...without Alchemy there would be no Geome Project...without the original named 7 planets we would not have gotten to the Moon...or beable to fly between Maine and San Fran. Maybe it is that we endanger their beliefs and so they fear us? All I know is that we are a moral people, who have been discriminated aginst up to the Oval office...and I, for one, am tired of waiting for the public to grow up. I am protected by the Bill of Rights as far as being able to fight governmental discrimination...but when will the idiots on mainstreet wise up?

Yes, Mod...the Pagan ancients gave the world many ideas to build on. Morality did not start with Jesus...but then the parables Jesus taught with has lost much in the translation over the years.

terra

Amen. Thanks Sally Quinn

Joet,

I really don't think Romney was trying to tell evangelicals that he is just like them hoping that he is not "exposed." Romney says that Jesus Christ is the Son of god and that there are differing doctrines among various Christian faiths then asserting himself explicitly as being a MORMON of conviction.

As I and other Mormons are well aware, the accusations towards Mormons from this corner of the religuous world which reject someone of my faith outright for president are as follows:

that we are "not saved" ,
that God does not hear our prayers and
that our prophet is some sort of dictator in our lives.

The latter Romney aptly and rightly addressed, the two former are so absurd to bring into a political debate, I'm glad Romney continues to have the good sense not to go there.

And Romney defines the particular type of secularism he has his beef with. He uses the qualifying word "some" to go on to describe a certain brand of secularists who would completely ban faith from the public sphere which it appears we along with Romney agree no one can and should do but as you say "to filter it properly".

Romney repeatedly asserted his intentions to do just that.

I think it only fair for journalists such as Sally to just ask Romney what his stance or thoughts are towards non-believers instead of assuming them...

DZ and Lisa:

So there may be some 30 to 45 million people who are not religious/non-believers. Add Muslims, Jews (they don't think of Jesus as Son of God) and Buddhists (who don't have a deity) and Pagans/Wiccans who are not accepted as a mainstream religion, you would have at a very conservatively estimated 60 million people who are excluded by Mitt Romney. I take it that those polled on their beliefs or non-beliefs are adults and hence voters. Can Mitt Romney/Republicans afford that?

I've never seen Ms. Sally Quinn this irked in any of her On Faith essays. Here I was happily lapping up her essays on her spirituality, her son, why she came out with On Faith, her promotion of the Children's National Hospital for charity and bam! her ire on what Mitt Romney excluded in his speech - atheists and the unconstitutional thrush of it viz seperation of church and state.

We now know the view of one inside the Beltway. What about those living in, say, the Bible Belt? What do they think of Mitt Romney's speech? Do they matter? Will what they think and do make a difference?

Thanks and regards
"J"

Lisa - could you give some example of atheists who are angry and strident? and describe what about their behavior was angry and strident?

I wonder if you're talking about "celebrity" atheists, who are seen on talk shows, or do you mean atheists you know personally? I've always been an optimistic person with a good sense of humor. None of that has changes since I became an atheist.

You say, "the so-called free-thinkers would do a better job of promoting the message of a God-free existence if they could learn to be less angry, less offended and less convinced of their own virtuousness?"

Could you give some specific guidance on how to do this? I can't guarantee that I will follow it, but truthfully, I don't know where to start without more specific guidelines.

Also, I'm not so sure I agree with the suggestion to be "less convinced of their own virtuousness."

How is it a bad thing to think that your actions are virtuous? Don't you try to be virtuous? Do you think religious believers would be better off if they were less convinced of their virtuousness?

I look forward to hearing back from you.

Lisa - could you give some example of atheists who are angry and strident? and describe what about their behavior was angry and strident?

I wonder if you're talking about "celebrity" atheists, who are seen on talk shows, or do you mean atheists you know personally? I've always been an optimistic person with a good sense of humor. None of that has changes since I became an atheist.

You say, "the so-called free-thinkers would do a better job of promoting the message of a God-free existence if they could learn to be less angry, less offended and less convinced of their own virtuousness?"

Could you give some specific guidance on how to do this? I can't guarantee that I will follow it, but truthfully, I don't know where to start without more specific guidelines.

Also, I'm not so sure I agree with the suggestion to be "less convinced of their own virtuousness."

How is it a bad thing to think that your actions are virtuous? Don't you try to be virtuous? Do you think religious believers would be better off if they were less convinced of their virtuousness?

I look forward to hearing back from you.

Lisa - could you give some example of atheists who are angry and strident? and describe what about their behavior was angry and strident?

I wonder if you're talking about "celebrity" atheists, who are seen on talk shows, or do you mean atheists you know personally? I've always been an optimistic person with a good sense of humor. None of that has changes since I became an atheist.

You say, "the so-called free-thinkers would do a better job of promoting the message of a God-free existence if they could learn to be less angry, less offended and less convinced of their own virtuousness?"

Could you give some specific guidance on how to do this? I can't guarantee that I will follow it, but truthfully, I don't know where to start without more specific guidelines.

Also, I'm not so sure I agree with the suggestion to be "less convinced of their own virtuousness."

How is it a bad thing to think that your actions are virtuous? Don't you try to be virtuous? Do you think religious believers would be better off if they were less convinced of their virtuousness?

I look forward to hearing back from you.

(sorry, if there are multiple postings - I keep getting "error" notices.)

Lisa - could you give some example of atheists who are angry and strident? and describe what about their behavior was angry and strident?

I wonder if you're talking about "celebrity" atheists, who are seen on talk shows, or do you mean atheists you know personally? I've always been an optimistic person with a good sense of humor. None of that has changes since I became an atheist.

You say, "the so-called free-thinkers would do a better job of promoting the message of a God-free existence if they could learn to be less angry, less offended and less convinced of their own virtuousness?"

Could you give some specific guidance on how to do this? I can't guarantee that I will follow it, but truthfully, I don't know where to start without more specific guidelines.

Also, I'm not so sure I agree with the suggestion to be "less convinced of their own virtuousness."

How is it a bad thing to think that your actions are virtuous? Don't you try to be virtuous? Do you think religious believers would be better off if they were less convinced of their virtuousness?

I look forward to hearing back from you.

Lisa - could you give some example of atheists who are angry and strident? and describe what about their behavior was angry and strident?

I wonder if you're talking about "celebrity" atheists, who are seen on talk shows, or do you mean atheists you know personally? I've always been an optimistic person with a good sense of humor. None of that has changes since I became an atheist.

You say, "the so-called free-thinkers would do a better job of promoting the message of a God-free existence if they could learn to be less angry, less offended and less convinced of their own virtuousness?"

Could you give some specific guidance on how to do this? I can't guarantee that I will follow it, but truthfully, I don't know where to start without more specific guidelines.

Also, I'm not so sure I agree with the suggestion to be "less convinced of their own virtuousness."

How is it a bad thing to think that your actions are virtuous? Don't you try to be virtuous? Do you think religious believers would be better off if they were less convinced of their virtuousness?

I look forward to hearing back from you.

Perhaps the best argument that there is not a God is that a person so utterly ignorant of both theology and American history could have a website discussing religion in American life sponsored by a major weekly news magazine. If God exists, he must be extremely patient to tolerate Sally Quinn's nonsense

After she is done comparing John Adams to Osama Bin Laden, Ms. Quinn should visit the Jefferson Memorial on her lunch hour. After reading the inscriptions carved into its walls, she can return to her office and write a new article telling us about Thomas Jefferson repudiating the constitution.

" Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed the conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?" You can see this one to your left as you face Mr. Jefferson, cut about 2 inches thick into the marble.

I have a question for Newsweek and The Washington Post. Do you want people who actually know something about American history and logical thought to read your publications or are you looking to capture the anti-religious zealot market?

I suggest to you that your marketing folks may suggest that you pay more attention to the first group of readers. Accordingly, you might want to give Ms. Quinn her pink slip so she has time to read up on a few basics (like US History 101) before she takes out her pen to inform us that the US Constitution establishes a God-free zone.

Cesplin said: "A country without faith in God is not truly free. Think about it."

I have thought about it, and it is patently false. Freedom is completely independent from faith in god. A country can have faith in god and be free, just as it can have faith in god and not be free. Similarly, a country can not have faith in god and be free, or it can not have faith in god and not be free. You're trying to tie two unrelated things together, and it just doesn't work.

And those generally spouting such lines usually want to restrict freedoms (such as worship of other gods/non-gods/etc. or gay marriage, to give examples).

Lisa: Interesting point. I wonder how, exactly, an atheist in the current election cycle would run his or her campaign. It would be a challenge to react to the evangelical right point of view with some principle and righteous anger without sounding strident in the process. Not sure I can think of anyone up to the task (first we need someone who even admits non-belief).

On the other hand, maybe the emperor has no clothes, and the first person who says enough of this nonsense, I don't believe and I am running as the competent Turk that Martin Luther (not King) said he would prefer over an incompetent christian any day of the week, would actually find out that the currently accepted PC wisdom is a myth. one wonders.

Bob: I will agree that Sally's use of the Unitarian reference is a stretch, but that's all it is. Kennedy did mention the right not to attend church at all, and we can assume he wasn't just referring to lapsed Catholics. Again my problem with Romney is the stuff in his speech that explicitly rejects atheists as having no place in a christian America. Kennedy made no such veiled references as only christians are fit to serve as judges. And no, Jack, the above points, made by Sally, do not suffer from the logic flaw you allege.

I have read some comments to the effect that Obama has the same problem. I haven't read everything he says, but what I have read is not subject to the same criticism, because what Obama says is that a persons faith will affect what they do in office. It has to. The issue is how it affects their service, and whether the politician respects the fact that they must translate their faith through a filter of secular obligations before it can become public action. That's the issue. No one can leave their faith outside the door of the oval office, and no one should. The challenge is to filter it properly.

Back to Romney. His problem is that the whole point of his speech was to tell evangelicals that he is a christian just like them (which is a lie from the evangelical point of view that he hopes isn't exposed), and that he hates secularism and separation of church and state just like they do, all the while sounding to non-evanjelicals like he believes just the opposite. so great is the divide between evangelicals and the rest of us that it's actually almost possible to write a speech with enough code in it that the two audiences might hear opposite messages. he almost got away with it.

DZ:

According to Pew Research about 12% of people under 30 and 6% of people over 30 are non-religious. That doesn't necessarily mean "atheist" since proclaiming oneself to be spiritual but not religious is "in". So ok, to call atheists a "tiny minority" may have been too strong but I will stand behind "small minority".

That should not distract us from the fact when atheists sally forth into the public arena to make their case, they routinely come off as bitter, angry, self-righteous and perpetually aggrieved. It's no good pointing to the other side and yelling "SO DO THEY!!!!!"

However many Americans may profess belief in God, the fact is that in the functional sense we live in a God-ignoring culture. The worth and character of God is not brought to bear on any decision made in the lives of most Americans. When people do trouble themselves to wonder what God may be like, the only thing they know for sure is that He is way too nice to judge them.

So all that remains for atheists is to continually point out the inconsistency and wait for the renunciations to roll in. Personally, I think the major obstacle to that is atheists themselves who come across as unpleasant and strident. If I were in that God-ignoring category, I'd be wondering if becoming an atheist meant that I'd have to be mad 24/7 for the rest of my life.

Lisa:

There are 15 million atheists in the U.S. That's more than all Jews and Muslims in the U.S. combined. Plus, there are also 15 million agnostics and another 15 million that the Harvard Divinity Schools calls :I don't knows and I don't cares". That's 45 million people who are not religious.

Sally is completely overreacting here. The inconvenient reality is that the overwhelming majority of Americans profess some sort of belief in God and only a tiny minority claim to be atheists. Even atheists by their strident disavowal of belief in God end up living their skeptical lives with reference to God. But I digress.

I can't help but feel that seeing as how the majority of americans are functional atheists despite their claims to the contrary, the so-called free-thinkers would do a better job of promoting the message of a God-free existence if they could learn to be less angry, less offended and less convinced of their own virtuousness.

Sally is 100% right. Romney doesn't believe in the separation of Church and state. He lies to convince others that his faith is under attack by saying that those who believe in the separation of church and state seek to drive all references to religion from public life. That is nonsense! He reminds me of those trying to assert that Christmas and Christianity are under attack- also nonsense. What is unacceptable is a lack of respect for others' beliefs.

Those saying "Happy Holidays" are not attacking Christian holidays, they are acknlowledging Chanukah. There is nothing evil about respecting the holiday of Jews at the same time one acknowledges Christmas. But it appears that many Christian conservatives have no respect for the Jewish holiday-- which is precisely why we still need a separation of Church and state. Romney is wrong.

If I were to rank the best qualified canidates for President, I would have to put Romney near the top and someone worthy to be considered. His
success as a business person and administrator are impressive.

But Romney's speech made me feel excluded. I want a canidate, who when asked about religious matters, will invite all our citizens to the table to humanity. In that speech, I don't want them to make it a point to exclude me.
My wife gives so much of her time to our community and our children are at the top of the class in school. When Mormons have come to our
door, it has always been a pleasant visit and I don't hold it against them that someone who may represent all Americans, did this.

Given that people are are trying to exclude him for what he believes, please be considerate of people like me. We are in the same boat.

In the tradition of the great prophet Jesus, we forgive him and offer our other cheek.

Right on.

Cesplin,

Hmmm, what we know about the LDS et al:

1. Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions)???

2. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

3. Joe Smith had his Moroni.

Jehovah Witnesses have their Jesus /Michael the archangel, the first angelic being created by God;

Mohammed had his Gabriel (this "tinkerer" got around).

Jesus and his family had Michael, Gabriel, and Satan, the latter being a modern day demon of the demented.

The Abraham-Moses myths had their Angel of Death and other "no-namers" to do their dirty work or other assorted duties???????

4. "Latter-day Saints also believe that Michael the Archangel was Adam (the first man) when he was mortal, and Gabriel lived on the earth as